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Posted by: Socinus Sep 11 2011, 02:17 AM

Alright, I'm putting together a character that uses sniper rifles and I want to give him a drone to use as a spotter.

I'm not really sure which drones to go for. I'd been looking at the Aztechnology Crawler, to have something that would sit next to the character. But I was also looking at something like the Renraku Stormcloud.

I know Improved Sensor Array is a must, but I'd also like to have more vision modes, sensors, etc etc.

Any ideas?

Posted by: suoq Sep 11 2011, 03:25 AM

Personal favorite:

MCT Fly Spy with:
gecko tips
chameleon coating
improved sensor array
2 cameras (front/back)
1 microphone
1 ultrawideband sensor array

Posted by: Fatum Sep 11 2011, 03:30 AM

Nissan Rotodrone is an omnipresent universal flying drone...
Though, frankly, you have to be more specific - pretty much anything fits your current description with an upgraded sensor suite.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 03:33 AM

You see this a lot, but does anyone actually need a spotter? It's easier to have superior sensors just on your person, especially because you're the one firing. Unless it's for tacnet, or info-guided, but you said 'beside me'. :/

Posted by: Fatum Sep 11 2011, 03:41 AM

Well, in actuality, unless we're talking a very specific campaign centered around a single character, the first question would be: how often does your typical shadowrunner team need a sniper to begin with?
And the answer would be: not very often.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 04:05 AM

Heh. There's also that. That, and the fact that anyone with a scope is a sniper in SR4. But those are context, not too important to this question. In technical SR4 terms, what good is a spotter to a sniper? (Beyond the utility of a spy drone to all characters, I mean.)

Posted by: Socinus Sep 11 2011, 04:44 AM

I wouldnt say no to the additional dice to take a difficult shot. It also doesn't hurt to have an extra set of (lenses) to survey the area.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 01:02 PM

Sure, but you can't really run a 2-man (worse, 1-man + drone) tacnet, and I tend to think the GM is less convinced if the sensors are all co-located. You'd want your drone buddies far away getting alternate angles. I'm saying I don't see you getting any extra dice; maybe a second Perception check, if your is that bad?

Posted by: Neraph Sep 11 2011, 03:57 PM

If you're trying to get TacNet bonuses, you need at least 2 drones plus yourself, and that's only for a R1 TacNet.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 11 2011, 04:01 PM

This Old Drone gives you a lot of options that aren't full of RFID tags and other nasties!

Posted by: Kirk Sep 11 2011, 08:04 PM

Not gaming, but the main job of the spotter is to make up for the fact the shooter has ultimate tunnel vision.

Posted by: Fatum Sep 11 2011, 09:08 PM

In RL, yeah, but in SR that is not covered by the rules in any way I can think of.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 11:02 PM

Yeah, I definitely understand the spotter role in general, but I'm just asking if anyone has a SR4 mechanical use. Tacnets and info-guided are cool, but they general involve remote spotters, and definitely more than 2 units.

In SR4, you'd probably have a minor Distracted penalty to Perception, which you already get for doing… anything. :/

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 11 2011, 11:10 PM

Sure it is.
The gunner will be distracted while aiming for (Gun Skill) number of rounds (for maximum Take Aim bonus, and negating range), while the spotter wouldn't be.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 11:15 PM

Yeah, but everyone is Distracted (a paltry -2, I think?). A dude with a pistol, a cell phone, anything. Anyone not actively on lookout. My thinking is that the sniper will have a better Perception roll with -2 than basically any drone, even with very expensive Sensors and Programs.

Posted by: Kirk Sep 11 2011, 11:42 PM

A spotter is "actively looking" for targets for the sniper. That's +3 while the sniper is at -2 for being "distracted" (or in this case "focused" might be a more accurate term).

For the OP's use, I think adding Visual Spotter and/or Weapon Watcher software (AR 61) to the drone would be a start.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 11:59 PM

Yes. It depends on what Actively Looking includes, and what you're asking him to do. Is he watching the area for bad guys, or just one area (in which case, he's Distracted everywhere else), and so on.

The sniper can run those using his own comm and sensors, though, which are likely better. My point isn't that a spotter is worthless, but that it's maybe not worth enough to bother with.

Posted by: Kirk Sep 12 2011, 12:33 AM

Yes, he can run them through his own. At the same time if the sniper owns the drone and intends it for that purpose I'd expect it to have at least similar quality sensors/comms. A good pilot with adaptability and targeting autosofts help. And there's still that +3 vs the sniper's -2.

Let's see. R3 sensor software is 600¥ each, and R3 autosofts are 1500¥ each, so 2100 for visual spotter (3) and clearsight (3) to add +6 to the drone's perception. A doberman with sensor 3 is 3000. For 5100 its perception is 3+3+3+3 [edited] (watching) = 12 perception dice. Is that enough? depends on the user. Is it worth it? depends on the user.

For max software I have to spend 2000 for R4 clearsight, 3000 for R6 visual spotter. Optimizing both to run on a Pilot 3 will cost me another 600 apiece or 1200 total. There are a LOT of ways to make an R6 sensor, but a camera (6) with magnification, low-light, and flare comp is a mere 850. 2000 + 3000 + 1200 + 850 = 7050 + 3000 for the drone is 10,050 for a 16 [edited] dice spotter. Again the question of whether it is worth the price is up to the player -- some might say yes, others no.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2011, 12:45 AM

It does depend on the player's other gear. Most of mine have crazy high Perception pools, and already invested in solid comms and sensors, so that's a less cost. If you're doing the Sensor 6 cheat, then that certainly helps… against a bad GM. Even after the drone spots a target, the shooter still must as well, and the +5 difference only matters while he's actually scoped in on an existing target. Hmm.

You definitely can make a handy spy drone, no doubt. The thing is that literally everyone should have a handy spy drone; I'm just asking if it particularly helps a sniper.

Posted by: DWC Sep 12 2011, 01:09 AM

WAR includes rules for using Leadership to direct fire, providing someone else with a bonus to a ranged attack test. Neatly covers both the spotter's role and the JTAC's job.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2011, 01:14 AM

Well, I 'm glad Leadership does *something*. I dunno if it applies to a drone.

We may be focusing too much on the bonuses, anyway. Just because you're not getting a +2 to the shot doesn't mean it's not useful in less rigid ways, of course. It depends on the GM, I guess, and the exact role of the sniper. If it's just shooting one guy, the drone would be more useful on remote recon/shadowing. If it's participating in a prolonged combat scene, then having something keep an eye on the whole scene continuously would be handy, tacnet or not.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2011, 02:33 AM

With a personality and an Agent program, couldn't the rifle itself be the spotter?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2011, 02:38 AM

Probably, but that's even more toward what I said was the biggest flaw: it has to be right there with the sniper. The most useful spotter is flying far away, right?

As far as I know, Personality doesn't actually have a function, so just the Agent should work. It doesn't even have to run on the gun, it just needs the sensor feed. Besides, you're *using* the gun's sensors already to be zoomed in, right?

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2011, 02:40 AM

All depends on your point of view. And the spotter's point of view, as well. If there's a lot of overhead coverage, flying up isn't going to help much.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2011, 02:51 AM

I guess. Still, it's hard to imagine many situations that a tiny flying bug wouldn't be ideal. Even if it's only to land and perch somewhere for the real spying. If there's room for a sniper shot, there's room for that.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 12 2011, 06:23 AM

Why stop at one?







-k

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2011, 08:15 AM

Exactly, and then you can tacnet them and finally get that numeric bonus on the shot.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 13 2011, 07:58 PM

I'd imagine in 207X, an handful of microdrones is standard kit for a Scout/Sniper.

I'm curious as to how the sniper in question fits into the game. I've seen a few tried, but they never fit real well.
I played in one game with an Orc adept, who had some longarms/fieldcraft skills, and he seemed to work out pretty well, although he did very little actual sniping. More shadowing, and generally being a "6th Man", one more gun type.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2011, 08:25 PM

Try thinking less "Long Range Shooter" and more "Stealth Fighter".

Watch "Heat" for how to properly do this when a deal goes wrong. Val Kilmer does a good role of this.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2011, 09:43 PM

Yeah, 'snipers' at our tables are always more like scouts/overwatch.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 14 2011, 01:05 PM

That said, the Sniper intro in Arsenal (Running Gear, pg 42) is top notch. It also serves as a testament that shooting folks, at a great distance, with a big bullet, is sort of a lone wolf act.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 14 2011, 02:12 PM

And unfortunately (well, for sniper fans) the two emphasized points do not happen in most games. Snipers in SR are a real niche job probably better left to drones

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2011, 02:21 PM

Good point. The biggest reason is perhaps that sniping is *easy*. Targets who can't react don't require huge Firearms DPs, which is why a drone can handle it. That's why your 'sniper' will have plenty of BPs left for overwatch, maybe leadership/planning, shadowing, elec-war, perhaps hacking/rigging, infiltration, etc. If he's a sniper, he probably doesn't have spellcasting (why bother with sniping?), so he's either an adept or cyber, which means he has easy access to a lot of non-sniping functionality there as well.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 14 2011, 02:35 PM

All valid points.
The Longarms/Survival/Stealth bits all play elsewhere.

Anyone ever home-brewed a sniper drone?

I was thinking something aerial, that could orbit an area.
Hidden mount, with a Barrett, gyro stabilized, firing DU slugs, or something of the sort.

I think the Stormcloud would be popular for its ability to loiter, but it also isn't getting out of the area very quickly.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 02:50 PM

With a Concealed Gun, it doesn't have to. Put an add on the side. Ergo, you are an advertising Drone.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 14 2011, 02:53 PM

Nobody here but us NERPS

Posted by: CanRay Sep 14 2011, 03:25 PM

Rifles have to deal with muzzle drop and rotation of the bullet.

Magic works on line-of-sight and can be augmented by non-electronic vision enhancement systems (AKA: Binoculars and Telescopes.).

How powerful can you get a Telescope again, especially one that you'd be fitting into a case the same size you'd use for a broken-down sniper rifle? Being completely legal, but really weird to have in an office building if searched?

Alternatively, old fashioned film SLR Cameras are still in use in Shadowrun, and have some mighty powerful lenses on them as well, and are easier to explain. And they're just glass and mirrors, so would work for the "Line-of-sight" bit too.

A Magician Sniper can work just fine.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 14 2011, 03:44 PM

Most definitions of the word "Sniper" do not specifically include the word "rifle".

Posted by: CanRay Sep 14 2011, 03:47 PM

Yeah, but Muskets are so 19th Century.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 14 2011, 03:48 PM

I'm still hoping for a blimp with Body 6-8, so it can have an internal mount, satellite link, and Chameleon Coating...so far all blimps are either too small or too large for that


Another possibility would be a smart firing platform (2000 ¥) + some cheap rifle and a few thermite bars. Place it a few days before you need it and put the platform in standby mode, on the big day fire two shots and then burn all evidence.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 14 2011, 04:37 PM

I gotta say, I like the idea of making an Overwatch character, who has good stealth and communications technology skills (*coughhackingcough*), drones, and who knows how to play backup gunman. A dedicated sniper isn't often necessary, because a dedicated sam does a very similar job. But someone to hide in the background and provide cover to the sam has his uses.

That, and I figured out while playing a hacker that I enjoyed playing Overwatch, but needed some "hands at a distance" too, so drones. And sniping can be added without too much trouble.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2011, 04:48 PM

I'm not sure what you're responding to there, CanRay. My point was that we can assume he has no spells, because 'sniping' with spells is called 'Monday' for any magician. It's nothing special, and it's usually much better than using a firearm.

The definition of 'sniper' *does* include, if not 'rifle', than certainly 'firearm'.

Ditto and exactly, Ascalaphus.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 14 2011, 05:25 PM

If you ask me, it most certainly does, however the interwebs don't consider it a requirement.
A quick search on "define sniper" lands a bunch of sites, some respectable, some not, who use the word "shoot", no mention of firearms on Websters.
...and we all know, if it isn't on the internet, it can't be true.

I propose a working definition of...

"Well trained sneaky type, with large rifle, large scope, and large watch, who sends lead down range in a manner that results in the quick and painless death of his enemy."

Posted by: Fatum Sep 14 2011, 05:52 PM

Right, because you can be a sniper even if you use a crossbow or just a bow.
Spells, though - eh, no.

Posted by: Socinus Sep 14 2011, 06:09 PM

Maybe I end up in the weird campaigns, but the last several games I've played we've had an Adept gunbunny who ended up being a sniper because they came in so handy.

Whenever we had a meet, he'd cover us and that saved our asses multiple times either by giving us overwatch or by adding a big rifle that could hit from far away.

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 14 2011, 06:22 PM

Well, for starters, let's ignore the sniper types with big rifles, let's go with a pistol sniper. Let's call him a marksman instead.

Ruger Super Warhawk, APDS ammunition, range finder, tac-net, several spotter drones and you have a guy that shoots people through walls. Shorten the barrel and we shoot people at 48 meters.

We could even get him a shotgun with a shortened barrel. He will still "snipe" people at 120 meters with no range penalties.

People seem to get stuck on the fact that when they pay a sniper they must suddenly use a big honking rifle.

Posted by: bustedkarma Sep 14 2011, 06:46 PM

I'm not really stuck on the rifle. I use a big rifle every fall, and I call it "Deer Season".

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2011, 06:48 PM

… Because it's true, The Jopp. You're not 'sniping' from pistol ranges. That's called 'normal shooting people'. Even the shotguns (Longarms) really don't have the range. In SR ranges, an assault rifle is probably acceptable, minimally, as are sport rifles. I doubt a bow/crossbow can either, but I'm open to being informed.

I don't think it's crazy to assume that when people say 'sniper', they mean 'long range small arms'. In SR4, that's AR, sport rifle, and sniper rifle; things with an Extreme higher than 150m (these are all higher than 500m, actually). Heavy weapons have the range, but that's not really what they *mean*.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 14 2011, 08:11 PM

Sniping with a Grenade Launcher, Daddy likes!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2011, 08:17 PM

You totally can, they (just barely) qualify. It's just not what people mean when they say 'sniper', hehe.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 14 2011, 09:07 PM

I want to start sniping people with a Mortar now.

EDIT: Actually, did something similar in a demo game where the group had to protect a site from attack. They stood around as a Physical Adept used a Grenade Launcher as a Ghetto Mortar, with a Watcher Spirit spotting. Them scatter rules are a major bite in the hoop! They only actually started doing things when the guard shack blew up and they had University School Nerd and JoyGrrl guts splattered all over them.

Posted by: Fatum Sep 14 2011, 09:59 PM

Well, it seems to me that when people think about snipers they primarily have a concept of a combatant capable of engaging his opponents at extreme ranges, whereas what you've described fits more into the more common "street sam" archetype. Actually, sammies do have a similar problem of being rarely needed in "serious" games, since starting a major fight is often a good way into a TPK (and thus a sammy is mostly used to cover others' frag-ups), but for one-trick pony snipers its several orders of magnitude more relevant.

Haha, too bad you can't hit a barn door with heavy weapons, right? :ь

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 14 2011, 10:11 PM

That guy weilding the shotgun can probably use a rifle just as effectively. Specialisation will be the only differentiator. And really, those two dice don't matter all that much. Especially for proper sniping, which tends to exclude defense.
That said, you might as well use the sniper rifle in CQB. Not as if there's any drawback to it anyway. Get melee hardening, and ask your GM as if you can count it as having Reach 1 as well for bonus cheese.