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Posted by: camberiu Sep 11 2011, 09:58 PM

Please bare with me, as I am still learning the SR4 system (I am a SR2 vet).


It seems to me that the Concealment Power as described in the core book is way too powerful and would allow the players to basically waltz in almost anywhere with impunity.


Let's take for example, a character with an infiltration skill of 4 and an agility stat of 5. Now let's imagine that a friendly Force 6 Spirit uses his Concealment power on this character. Basically, from that point on anyone trying to perceive that character on the physical plane would be subjected to a -6 dice modifier AND with whatever dice pool left, would have to beat the character's Infiltration 4 + Agility 5 on a perception roll? I can't think of many places that this fella would not be able to get into. Yeah, he probably would not be able to waltz into the Aztechnology Pyramid and a few similar places, but pretty much any other lesser places would be wide open to him. Or am I missing something here?

Now, let's say this guy gets really daring and manages to convince his mage friend with Magic Attribute of 6, to summon a Force 12 Spirit. Let's say the mage friend manages to summon a force 12 spirit (and survive). Now this force 12 spirit could conceal this guy on our example and cause anyone trying to perceive him to suffer a -12 penalty on perception tests, both physically and astrally.

Now, if this I described so far is correct, my question is: Where would'd this fellow be able to sneak into? Worse, with a Force 12 spirit with concealment power, I could potentially turn any crappy commuter plane into a Stealth bomber for hell.

I must be missing something, because this power seems to be too unbalanced to make the game practical. Please let me know what I might not be considering here. Thanks.

Posted by: Fatum Sep 11 2011, 10:14 PM

Yeah, Concealment is broken. This is partly evened out by the fact that most mages can't realistically summon Force 12 spirits, at least not without risk of injury or death; and more so by houseruling spell-like powers to be resistible. Still broken, though.

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 11 2011, 10:24 PM

Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay. Remember that is lights you up on the astral, can't be taken through a ward, leaves an astral trail to the magician, and you can still find people. Not everyone has a high infiltration+agility, but many guards have a high intuition+perception, and with perhaps dozens of guards, drones, and cameras, someone might make the check to see the runner.

I do perception checks a little differently, when there are multiple people such as grunts making a check, I uses the highest dice pool among them and add 1 for each additional person, this helps balance measures like chameleon suits and concealment.

Posted by: camberiu Sep 11 2011, 10:31 PM

I don't think it "lights you up astrally", quite the opposite actually.

According to the SR4A core book, page 293:

"Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection."

Also, how can it leave an astral trail to the magician as it is a spirit power, not a spell?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 11 2011, 10:50 PM

I've found the biggest check to place on concealment is a thematic one. Concealment is where the spirit does something with the enviroment according to it's nature to help hide the character, dpending ont he type and the local enviroment this activity can be unsubtle as all hell. An air spirit summons a fog bank, a plant spirit manipulates the local vegetation, etc etc, I find this helps keep the power much more in check and I seem to recall it's how the original power was worded.

But yea, it is pretty insane and falls under one of those things that people love to use but hate having used against them.

Posted by: Nath Sep 11 2011, 10:51 PM

Force 12 spirits are too powerful, no matter which of their power you are considering.

You can argue that Concealment only applies when there would be Perception Test in the first place. As the 20th Anniversary put it, "Gamemasters should limit their uses of Perception Tests, only calling for them when something is not immediately noticeable or when a situation is so hectic that certain things might be overlooked."
Also, there is no Perception Test with trip beams, pressure pads and motion sensors, it's a fixed Threshold.

If there ought to be a Perception Test, six guards watching a well-lighted small room would get a +7 modifier (+1 per guard after the first one if they do a single group roll, +2 because the character is going to stand out in the otherwise empty room). With Intuition 3, Perception 4 (Sight 6) and Enhancement 3, there would still be 13 dices against a Power 6 spirit Concealment power.

Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 11 2011, 11:02 PM

A spirit can turn a power on (on up to F targets simultaneously, including itself) and sustain it quite comfortably from the astral, miles away if it chooses. No way in hell anyone's going to see the spirit.

Posted by: Summerstorm Sep 11 2011, 11:13 PM

Pretty much ALL powers are overpowered. The simple fact that most of them can't really be resisted is harsh enough.
I mean come on: Will against crap like magic+stat makes every power pretty much impossible to keep at bay, if the monster in question is powerful enough. Things like Fear, Influence maybe Paralyzing Howl are pretty harsh.

Others, even most get resisted with TWO attributes: Desire reflection, Compulsion. And other, like Confusion at least don't cripple you THAT bad. Those should be the norm.

In regards to concealment: At least you can get the "invisible" people still with chokepoints {A door will know if it is opened, no matter how concealed the dude is}, also perception is one of the easiest to boost and easiest to gain bonus dice for. So it isn't THAT bad overall.

Posted by: Critias Sep 11 2011, 11:24 PM

Don't forget that Concealment only helps against actual Perception tests. Security systems can still go off, they still need to get past doors or through windows, that sort of thing. It helps with one aspect of infiltrating a facility, sure, but it's not an automatic "get into anywhere" power.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2011, 11:27 PM

It is indeed a great power, though. It's good against many things, stacks, etc. Be creative with it, and against it, and if it's making your games unfun, dial it back.

Posted by: Bodak Sep 12 2011, 02:55 AM

Was that a glitched attempt at writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_se?
Detect Life doesn't pick up spirits.
If it's a physical power, it does need to materialise / possess first before it can activate. But then as you say it can go back to the astral and go over the hills and far away while sustaining that power. That might forfeit remaining services but it can still do it. If it keeps travelling toward the setting sun / away from the rising sun so that it never experiences dawn / dusk, does that postpone its departure back to the metaplanes indefinitely?

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 12 2011, 03:12 AM

I play at Camberiu's game & can tell you first hand the insane power that Concealment has & how we've abused it with our mage.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 03:16 AM

So why aren't the NPCs doing the same thing? Why aren't security patrols roaming the compounds you're infiltrating while Concealed, for instance? If it's something that's so "insane" and being "abused," it sounds to me like something that's certainly fair game for the GM (or, rather, the NPCs) to know about and be willing and able to use.

And, again, how is Concealment helping with security systems and locked doors and wards and the like? Perception/Infiltration rolls are just one part of a multi-step process, I'm a little surprised it's affecting the game as much as you say it is.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 12 2011, 03:24 AM

Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.

Posted by: Manunancy Sep 12 2011, 06:23 AM

There's a little problem with that door-breaching method : how does the mage know what the door's looking like on the inside ? If a grunt or a cam see the door chaging colors (no reason it's the same color inside as outside) or the panic bar turning into a keypad-and handle setup similar to what's on the outside, odds are he'll sound the alert. A radar or ultrasound sensor on the inside will also pick the hole appearign in the door and might sound an alarm (not as bad as someone moving around, but possible)

And depending on the door's structure, 'shape metal might not be enough : if it's a fire door, the fire-resistant core won't be metal and you will spill it out when passing thorough. And almost every outer door will include thermal insulation - wether styrofoam or rockwool and you're going to spill it around as you go through the door.

A high security door is also likely to include some security against breaching by checking the door's physical integrity, to prevent tht sort of shenanigans.

you method is effective but not foolproof, it can still fail (and if you rely on it over and over with little checking it's going to raise the alert sooner or later)

Posted by: Irion Sep 12 2011, 06:54 AM

It is even quite cartoon style. I mean, it is so obvious hidden...
Going to a Store, wraping up stuff in a green cloth and carry it out of the door.
Yes, nobody sees you are stealing the laptop. But even if you are invisible they see a green bag floating out of the door...

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 12 2011, 07:27 AM

If you're using at least two spells and decent infiltration stats as well as the power then it's a bit of a stretch to call it broken. Especially when (as has been shown) the GM is going easy on you by allowing that to be enough.

Remember that in the grand scheme of things, all the tools you are applying to the infiltration effort are rare and powerful. Shadowrunners are paid well for their abilities as well as the willingness to play for high stakes. What you have here is a power that does what it's supposed to do and you'd have more right to qualms if it didn't.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 12 2011, 07:56 AM

Did you all recognize that most of the so broken powers, items, spells, gear, armor, machinery etc. are only broken because the players OR the GM lacks the specific knowledge how exactly the game mechanics are used? Magic particularily can me massively broken because of the very vague descriptions. This seduces powergamers to interpret rules in ways they like, but if you have some common sense you can stop them immediately. If you don´t use counterspelling, sensors, wards etc. you cannot complain. Summerstorm pointed it out very good: fear for example is something broken because you defend with only one stat, while he attacks with 2. But this works the other way round as well. As you know we are running Ghost Cartels at the moment and a force 6 shedim used his fear power on me. After getting sane again, i used one of my force 4 spirits to do the same with him....and now he was the running one. He is as defenseless against this kind of powers as anybody else...so what? About concealment: Summoning a force 6 spirit can kill or incapacitate you, while it only subtracts 6 dices from one of the usually highest dicepools in the game. No DP is easier to raise, no DP has more (especially positive) modifiers. So what? I would never depend solely on this power and higher force spirits are possible, but not very common. IF you are able to summon such an entity AND sustain multiple spells (as i remember shape element AND trid phantasm has a rather high drain) you earned to sneak in facilities very easy.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 09:35 AM

I had to smile at this thread. The mage in question does all those because if he didnt she we would die.

There is no dodge in this game. if we are ever deteched the likley hood of our death is pretty high. we have been detected a few times, and each time i barely make it out alive.

now as to why my mage would summon a force 12 spirit. let see she just by the luckiest roll in my life survive a 21P meleee hit from a force 12 spirit, and before she could heal got attacked by another force 6 spirit and thanks to an awesome roll by the adapt that was carrying her lived. so if i going to die, i would rather die trying to summon a force 12 spirit then get eating by one. needless to say our GM takes the Geek the mage first rule to heart.

of course what did we use to the force 12 spirit to do, well to run. As far as i am concerned im just happy if we make it out alive on any these runs alive or even under my own power.

so dont want to hear any of this poor GM stuff, and I assure you, that everything we use again them, they use against us.

and quite frankly if we didnt so some power and paranora on inflitration, we would be dead already. If we have to fire a shot or are in combat on run of these runs, something has gone wrong, and more likley than not, the pc are not going to survive. So whatever it takes to be as undetectable as possible is my motto.

The way i see it. The character exists in a world were a 12 year old with a gun kill you, so you take every precaution you have to, you use every skill and power at your disposal to live to see another day, because a rent a cop with any fire arm who gets the drop on you is just likely to kill you as red samarui team or force 12 spirit in this world

Posted by: Traul Sep 12 2011, 09:37 AM

*grabs popcorn*

Posted by: Blade Sep 12 2011, 09:59 AM

A thermal smoke grenade + a flash-pak + a loud explosion wil give perception modifiers, but they won't be subtle ways to get past guards.

The same might be said about the concealment power. A Force 12 spirit manipulates the environment in order to conceal the target, giving a -12 perception modifier to notice it. To grant such a high modifier, the concealment effect might be pretty obvious.

Posted by: Shortstraw Sep 12 2011, 10:13 AM

Screw the sensors I just set monowire all over my hallways then all you have to do is follow the blood.

Posted by: Irion Sep 12 2011, 10:35 AM

So it is the same result as usally:
Summoning is broken!
It is in no way sane that a stupid little fucker with 50 Karma is able to command a beeing godlike intelligenz just for the heck of it.
A Force 12 Spirit gets an intellect of 24 (kombination of Logic and Intuition).
Thats beyond even the most augmented human. A Pixi might be able to get that high, if you go for crome critters and genetically altered pixies.

And you know, the powers do also scale with the force.
Concealmet is broken to begin with. No defance against it, you do not even need to know about the guy you are hitting with this.
It hits all kinds of perception. I mean a simple troll does not care about the camelion suite. Concealment reduces his dice too.

Broken spirit + broken power =broken? How would have thought of that?


So if I get you group problem right, the GM is abusing high force spirits as is the group. Maybe both of you should stop doing that, because there is no way a Sam is able do do anything against a force 12 spirit. (Well, there are very special builds for sams out there, who can....)

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 10:52 AM

The Gm was not abusing the spirits. Within the context of the mission it was perfectly reasonable and logical that, that level astral security would exits.

Our characters knew that going in, but having failed a few missions before the last couple of successful ones, we can't exactly turn down jobs.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Sep 12 2011, 11:12 AM

No dodge? Well that's freakin' news. First, there IS such a skill as Dodge, to say nothing of the Full Defense action - if you're getting shot at, it's wiser to cartwheel your ass behind the nearest obstacle, be it a corner, a copy machine, a large crate or a car, than stay in the open and return fire.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 11:20 AM

Nope no dodge skill or reaction roll on firearms. No stick and shock. A fire fight will get you killed. Fighting spirits will get you killed. Stay hidden, and run like hell if you get spotted.

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 12 2011, 11:44 AM

It's not much of a challenge to show something as broken if you don't factor in any of the negative aspects. Not very enlightening either.

A Force 12 spirit will deal an average of 8 physical drain, assuming the "stupid little fucker" doesn't have Magic 12. Specifically, there's a 61% chance of at least 8P, 37% chance of at least 10P and 18% chance of at least 12P, at which point we're at instant death levels if the drain roll isn't good. And that's assuming the spirit doesn't use Edge, which it really would.

For players, particularly starting ones, this is a really big deal – especially since a lot of BP/Karma needs to be sunk into the summoning pool just to have a reliable chance of achieving some net hits in order to actually make use of the spirit. And you might only need 50 Karma to be able to do it (not quite sure how you came to this, since Magic 6 alone is 50 BP minimum) but if you don't pile the BP/Karma into your drain attributes too then your prospects are even worse.

For the megas? They'll want bound spirits for their patrols (since security is constant whilst infiltration is ad hoc) and binding a Force 12 spirit is even more unfeasible. You're now looking at an 74% chance of at least 14P drain and 58% chance of at least 16P drain, again without Edge. The expense of a mage who has the minimum Magic rating to even try is very high, so no corp is ever going to put their wage-mages' lives at such risk on this level of defence.

To surmise – yes, a Force 12 spirit should not be expected in any kind of corporate security that isn't guarding something that will bring down the entire AAA on its own. But it is not broken that magicians are able to dabble in the great power of spirits because the costs and risks are also great. The balance may not be quite right for you, but a one-sided argument focused on the most extreme and rare of cases is not a good one.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Sep 12 2011, 12:18 PM

Well now that's weird, since you specifically have a reaction roll against being shot and if you declare Full Defense, you can add Dodge to that (SR4, p. 151). And that, kids, is the difference between a Killer Game Master and a schmuck that can't even be bothered to read the bloody rulebook.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 12 2011, 12:24 PM

???? You are joking, aren´t you? Blade...master of english humor and sarcasm.^^ ....."so unsuspicious that you are flashy again"....funny.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 12:35 PM

Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 12 2011, 01:04 PM

And really, (ab)use of options to stay out of said combat is what it results in.
For the players: don't forget the chameleon suit with thermal dampening for another -4 on normal perception and -6 on thermal.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 12 2011, 02:11 PM

Here we go again. If you're discussing house rules, please say so up front, otherwise everyone will think you are discussing the rules as written and confusion will abound.




-k

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 12 2011, 02:42 PM

KarmaInferno is right. If you don´t like to dodge, play SR3. ^^

Posted by: camberiu Sep 12 2011, 02:51 PM

wait, what dodge has to do with the concealment power? How did this discussion veer into that? Whatever dodge is allowed or not has NOTHING TO DO with the concealment power discussion. Just wanted to make that clear.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 02:57 PM

Except that it pretty obviously does, because one of the players brought up the lack of dodging as the reason they're being so concerned with stealth and perception (IE, "abusing" the concealment power). You're insisting that the AIDS epidemic has nothing to do with condom usage, basically. If your players are terrified of getting into a fight, it's only natural they're going to find everything they can find that increases their methods of avoiding those fights.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 12 2011, 02:59 PM

Sometimes you bring it down to the point...i like that.^^

Posted by: camberiu Sep 12 2011, 03:02 PM

I have no problem with them being terrified of firefights. I have no problem with them doing everything they can to avoid those fights. I am all for them trying to be as stealthy, discreet and "black ops" as possible. I just want to make sure we are reading, interpreting and using the concealment rules correctly. I don't see what the discussion of the correct use of the concealment rules has anything to do with dodge.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 12 2011, 03:12 PM

First off, let me say sorry for omitting some info here. We appreciate the info people are giving us about spirit powers & such...

1. GM has decided to make the game more lethal, a la SR3 combat rules regarding firearms. No Dodge or Reaction rolls to avoid gunfire, Indirect Spells, & other forms of high-speed ranged attacks.
2. You are right the GM has NOT thought about ways to circumvent our mage(s) from summoning a really powerful spirit & having it use its Concealment powers on us & other abilities to overcome a majority of obstacles.
3. I feel the things we have done were in reaction to prior runs we had, in which we failed utterly, due to being quickly overwhelmed by the GM's use of op-forces. 1 of our very first games had us going against a squad of Red Samurai in a VTOL. There was also a dragon in another session.
4. Some of you have brought some good points about how Conceallment doesn't work against pressure plates, laser tripwires, MAD scanners, or cameras focused on other things than people.
5. The Concealment power is rather vague on if it's Physical or Mana based & agaisnt which sense it applies to. So far, from what we can tell, Concealment affects visual & hearing. We haven't tried taste, touch, or smell.
6. I think a majority of the things we have NOT encountered (on the technical side of things) is due to fact we lack a Hacker & Rigger. So B&E stuff that require technical skills have been out of our domain.

I saw a majority of people were in agreement that Spirit powers are awesomely overwhelming & powerful. Magic (when strong enough) means you can do anything.

Posted by: Traul Sep 12 2011, 03:14 PM

The problem is not Concealment, it is Concealment from a Force 12 Spirit. Players are not supposed to summon such a beast on a regular basis, and when they do, it is certainly not supposed to be to cast Concealment. It is your houserule that made the drain from a Force 12 spirit look like the safe solution.

Concealment is good against astral perception, it is good because it stacks with gear, but it is not more powerful than gear as long as the mage does not oversummon.

B&E does not require a lot of skill: the tools almost work on their own, but they are expensive. A decent logic and a couple of ranks in Hardware should be enough, so it's an easy branch even for an hermetic mage. The hacker's job is more to shut the sensors down.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 12 2011, 03:21 PM

We have no houserule regarding drain. Our mage is uber-specialized, & such has always somehow avoided suffering any type of major drain. How she has been able to summon force 12 sapirits is beyond me. I don't say anything b/c I wanna live & hope all my runs are milk runs with a Force 12 backing us up. As I posted before, it seems with Magic, you can do anything... get it high enough & powerful enough that is.

Posted by: Traul Sep 12 2011, 03:28 PM

Let me rephrase that: it is the no dodge houserule that made taking the drain from a Force 12 Spirit look safer than risking to get spotted.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 03:30 PM

Well, if your group sees mundane combat as an automatic failure and you don't have a rigger or a hacker (so that you GM is ignoring electronics and technology, pretty much) then sure. You guys are then going to (naturally) see magic (the only staple of the setting that remains) as the answer to all life's little problems.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 04:14 PM

I survived the summoning on the force 12 spirit because of luck. the GM rolled one 1 hit on the opposed test.

I usally stick with a force 6 spirit. Again in the context the ONLY reason we lived is because i had a force 12 spirit. it was not overkill, and it and oursevles barely made it out alive. Yes our opposition was that intense.

And saint hollow is right, i really don't like summoning that much, but we didnt have a hacker or a rigger, or anyway to deal with tech. we did a few runs without summoning, and needless to say, it did not go well, a hairs breath from a TPK.

To Me the game is working about right, if you are on a run and you get caught, the likelyhood of death and a TPK is high.

We are definately applying the concealment rules correctly. as for being overpowered, i dont think so. There are counter measures like wards. We have another house rule, where attacking disrupts the power.

The majority of time on our runs, is spent planning, and thinking of ways to make quietest and most undectable entry possible, and to leave unnoticed. and for that we use, our magic, every tech, and every skill and lot time to make that endevour possible.

Posted by: Fortinbras Sep 12 2011, 04:35 PM

Don't forget that to use the Critter powers literally is against the rules.

If you play the Critter powers as written, you aren't playing by the rules as written. If that helps to scale it down or interpret the ability of what ever you like.

Posted by: DamienKnight Sep 12 2011, 04:47 PM

First... Force 12 spirits have 12 edge... they are almost always going to use at least one point of that on the summoning test. Force 12 spirits KILL mages.

Second.. Concealment can always be beaten by a spirit of equal force. Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6. A force 6 spirit will have 12 perception dice, with 6 left over to spot another force 6 spirit after concealment is factored in.

It is very powerful. It gives magic a ridiculous edge over anything physical. Spirits are pwn.

If you are having difficulty accepting the unbalanced spirit powers, here are two house rules I recommend:

1. Concealment grants bonus dice to stealth tests, instead of reducing opponents perception dice.

2. Mages can use their banishing dice as a kind of counter-spelling again spirit powers.

The second rule makes banishing an actually useful skill, and still only adds a few dice to defend against what is usually Spirit Force x 2, so its not unbalancing.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Sep 12 2011, 04:55 PM

Uhhh... Isn't the drain value a constant you have to soak with Willpower+Logic? My guess is that mage thought about that in advance and has at least decent pool for that, like 7-8 dice. But it still can tear the mage's ass off, pretty literally.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 12 2011, 05:02 PM

Uh. Spirit skill ratings aren't capped...A force 12 spirit has, quite literally, a Perception skill rating of 12.

Posted by: Nath Sep 12 2011, 05:08 PM

Yes. Detect Life will instead pick up the invoker or his friends, if they did intend on using Concealment to sneak in.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 05:11 PM

spirits using edge on a summoning test seems alot lame to me. on a binding test sure, but for a summoning test?

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 05:14 PM

no the drain value is not constant. its the number of hits it rolls on an opposed test x2. its dice pool is its force. so again, i got very lucky. the gm could have roll 12 in which case it is 24p. again it would not have mattered because if i hadnt summoned it, we were going to die.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2011, 05:49 PM

Why would a Nigh Invulnerable God-like being want to serve such a squishy entity? You are absolutely nothing to him, literally. It is sheer hubris on the Mage's part to even think that he has a right to command such an Entity, let alone summon him. Spirits above a certain Power should ALWAYS Spend Edge to resist summoning. At our table, that Ranking is 4+. Some set it at Greater than the Mage's Magic Rating. I like our better. Either way does work.

Besides, Edge expenditure is at the whim of the GM. Spend it is my motto.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 05:51 PM

I'm not normally an advocate of Spirits boning the PC by spending Edge to resist a summoning test -- but when someone's summoning a powerful spirit (like they just were) and that spirit flubs it and rolls just a single success out of twelve dice? Yeah. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the GM to go ahead and have it plink away and Edge point, to reroll those failures.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 12 2011, 05:54 PM

I like this plan.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 05:57 PM

it's lame for the same reason that offering 10 years jail and 2.5 years post release supervision for Criminal Sale of controlled substance in third to both the guy with the book lenght rap sheet and the guy with the first arrest.

it's just tacky, can you do it sure, but that doesnt make it right.

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 12 2011, 06:03 PM

Is it equally tacky for the spirit to use its own Edge to help with fulfilling the summoner's wishes?

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 06:04 PM

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. why you would bone a player summoning a level 12 spirit the shadowrun equivilent of a hail mary pass, when they just got attacked by level 12 spirit, a level 6 spirit. more are l on the way, and not to mention a group of high level soldiers (6) on way each one more than enough to take out the team. if you are going to use to use edge on a test that normally doesnt call for it in that situation. then you should cease with the illusion of a game and kill the players outright, or switch to call of cathulu.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 12 2011, 06:06 PM

When you remove the ability to survive firearms then you should expect the group to turn to the next most powerful thing. The GM got exactly what he set himself up for, and that is a group that will never be shot.

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 06:10 PM

in our game, a spirits edge comes from the summoners own dice pool. So it's very rarely used. edge in our game is usally used to save our skins. like resisting a 22P hit from a level 12 spirit, with only a 14 dice pool. Again i find it amusing, that everyone thinks we are waltzing through these missions.

I have been personally carried out on quite a few of them.
one of the characters had a blanked rule of no barren missions.

we are just happy when we survive these missions.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2011, 06:11 PM

Hey, at our table, the NPC's suffer under the same rules as the PC's. You would never have faced that Force 12 Spirit at our table to start with. A Hail Mary Pass is a Force 7 Spirit, Maybe. Force 12 is something way different, in my opinion. That is the point where you run (Well anything above Force 6 really, unless you knew that going in). You do not stay around and play "Summoning" games.

Posted by: Jazz Sep 12 2011, 06:18 PM

You make me think of someone but who... Oh snap, that's just me (SR1 vet)


Until the spirit vanish, yes.


I don't know but not that far from the non concealed mage.

If the character have no dicepool to divide while infiltrating, and if you consider conceal to be a P+M power (it's a P power, that don't work on unliving things), yeah he can be unspot by guards, spirits and dogs. Climbing a wall and managing to bypass security systems while infiltrating is another problem.

There's a lot of cameras in Archologies.

(could say BS, still learning aswell)

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 06:20 PM

We still get shot alot, but it is true, we try our very hardest not be shot, because more likely than not, at least one of us would not survive.

I think we are being rational shadowrunners. if you live in a world that is so lethal, that some punk kid can take out a prime runner, you use every trick at your disposal to hide and evade fights. For the record i don't think we have been cheesy or cheap. even with concealment we have detected a few times.

honestly i am suprised by this conversation. it was an absolute miracle we didnt have a TPK on the last mission. there is no way we make it out alive without concealment.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 06:28 PM

All we can do is share our opinions and give our advice based upon the information your group is giving us. Your GM came on here talking about how he feels the Concealment power isn't balanced. Then, a smidgen of data at a time, we've learned other parts of the story.

One part was that a Force 12 Spirit was summoned basically consequence-free, which was a concern to your GM. Then, slowly, we were told that it happened due to strange luck. When we commented that "luck" is something with a mechanic built right in to be manipulated (IE, Edge), it was only after we made those sort of suggestions that...slowly...more information trickled to us about more house rules in play. These are big things, these house rules you guys keep conveniently not mentioning, when first asking for input or advice.

Ranged combat being absurdly dangerous? Yeah, that's kind of a big deal and is naturally going to shift the nature of a campaign.

The group being absolutely worthless when it comes to electronics/technology (and as such that aspect of security being largely ignored, in-game)? Hey, that's also kind of important, and explains why there's such a magical focus going on.

Spirits only getting Edge from their spellcaster? Hey, guess what, that's nice to now when someone's bitching about spirits, and spirit summoning being too easy, and how spirits work.

Noticing the pattern here? We get a statement like "I think X is a problem," and then when we make suggestions about how to get around X, or reasons X normally isn't broken, or ways to mitigate X, or ways we got by X in our games, or ways for corporate security to be able to handle X, we get a response like "Well that won't work in our game because sky yellow moon cheese platypus rhubarb," and then we realize that you guys have yet another table rule in play that changes the whole nature of X.


You can be "amused" at what we think all you want to, but please keep in mind that the only opinions we can form are opinions based on the stuff you and your buddies tell us. So maybe to you you guys are barely surviving, but to us? All we know is:

And:

So maybe instead of being amused (and then defensive) at the suggestions people are making, you guys could be a little more communicative to begin with.

If your GM comes in here asking for help because Concealment is so powerful his players aren't being challenged, and then another player clarifies and points out that yeah, you guys are "abusing" the "insane power," and just totally "bypassing" doors and cameras all the time...well, guess what? That's the mental image we're going to get of your game, okay?

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 06:45 PM

I don't think getting past Camera is that powerful. when failing to get past on detected means your death, or when they are sufficient counter measures to stop it.

I think "over powered" really depends on context, and given the rules we have regarding range combat, and the fact, that things like mono filament wire, attacking from concealment breaks the concealment, wards, doesnt work lifting objects or opening doors, to makes the power just about right.

do we use it alot, yep, is it fool proof, no. has it ever been fool proof no. if the GM wants to be ban, I'm fine with it, but I can't imagine our characters surviving more than a couple of missions or much less completeing them.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 12 2011, 06:59 PM

First off... as was stated in the 1st post, our GM (Camberiu) is an SR2 vet & not an SR4 person & he wanted people's opinions & thoughts about Concealment.

I think many folks here shared the consensus that Critters/Spirits & their powers do share some possible game unbalancing ramifications. Concealment being the primary power of concern.

As for how our game plays, the houserules, the checkered past/history of our runs & how our current modus operandi came about by abusing this power really isn't all that relevant anymore. Though from what people have seen here blame (if you can even call it that) is shared by both ends of the table & sides of the screen.

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 12 2011, 07:08 PM

Well if spirits don't have their own Edge in your game then of course it will seem odd for it to use it when resisting the summoning!

It's tremendously bad form to act aloof and condescending to people trying to help you balance your game when you've totally redefined core aspects of RAW and wonder why it's all out of whack.

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 12 2011, 07:10 PM

+10 Karma for Critias

Posted by: ikarinokami Sep 12 2011, 07:29 PM

well i wasnt being condescing. I was however disagreeing with the your fundemental point that the game is out of whack. it is not. nor do i think concealment is being abused or broken, within the context of the game it is played it is fine. The game as it stands is deadly and extremely fun, we all feel a sense a relief when we finally complete a mission which is awesome.

I did appreciate the persons, who pointed out the varies magical and technological counter measures that can be used against concealment.

I do agree though that our wonderful GM did not give proper context to the question. things like we had for the most part had only 2 or 3 players at time. that the three main players were a street sam, a sport rifle adapt and a mage. so in general our game are magic heavy, as previously we had no means of electronic counter measures, so our GM righly so did not really look into the varied varity of sensors that are possible.

I thinkwhat our GM was looking for was the different means to defeat concealment besides brute means which he had on the last run and were perfectly reasonable within the context of run.


So Thanks to everyone who gave excellent mundane choices. and apolgies to those who thought i was being condesending.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 12 2011, 07:31 PM

I'd vote for Engulf as the primary power to worry about. As spirit able to tag you with it, then zip off to the astral to sustain it from over yonder until you drop is quite worrisome. Or possibly Fear. That power that has you roll Will vs 2Force at LoS ranges. Or how about Movement? Ever seen a troll run 1000kph? How's about a motorcycle clocking in a safe speed of Mach 1.35? Or Mach 2.3 when used by a Force 12 spirit? And that's not even a customised motorcycle yet. Concealment really isn't all that bad.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 12 2011, 08:25 PM

I do not think that he was referring to the dodge skill. I read that as there is a defense or counter to any option the players or NPC’s use. Whether it is spirits, guns or hacking, you can counter everything. But I could be wrong....

Posted by: Irion Sep 12 2011, 08:40 PM

Spirts above force 6 tend to be out of sanity. That is quite obvious. There are some things holding up, but in general...
And honestly, if they use edge for the summoner or not is just icing on the cake, not the real deal...

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 08:50 PM

In this instance, you are. They're talking about some house rules in use at their local game, that takes away the defense rolls that are normally in place, turning every ranged attack into a resisted roll. There is no defense (reaction, or reaction + skill) roll against ranged attacks in their game.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Sep 12 2011, 08:50 PM

Duh, my bad. But a lesson for the future: in a situation where you're going to die, just summon the biggest, baddest combat spirit you can, sic him on the enemies and haul ass in the opposite direction, taking advantage of the confusion.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 12 2011, 08:53 PM

With the weight of House Rules they are working under we really can't help them much. The reason RAW is RAW in the first place is because it works (most of the time, within reason). When you start altering what the professional game designers have made you shouldn't be surprised when the game starts really frakking up. It's like popping the hood of the car and removing things that you don't think are important... and then the AC doesn't work, or the lights don't work, or the brakes don't work.

EDIT:
My land speed record with a 400 BP character is Mach 4.93.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Sep 12 2011, 09:27 PM

Just curious...how did your character survive going that fast?

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 12 2011, 09:28 PM

Magic.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 09:29 PM

See, I agree that it's harder and harder to help them the more house rules they use, but I don't mind the usage of house rules in the first place. There's nothing magical about game designers. They're not automatically always right, and they don't know the players and GM of your game (using the generic "your" there), so they don't automatically know exactly what'll work best for you and your group. Game books are just pixels in a pdf or ink on paper, not sacred images carved in stone tablets from Moses, y'know? House rule to your heart's content, if that's what you and your buddies like.

But say so at the start of any conversation asking for help, advice, or opinions, for pete's sake. And understand that those house rules have moved your game away from the game anyone else is playing (which isn't innately bad, don't get me wrong!), which cuts down on the ability of other people to converse about your game in a meaningful manner, or make helpful comments, or give good advice. Because the one thing RAW has going for it is that everyone can read it, and be talking about the same thing, and be "on the same page," basically.

So if a game isn't using RAW, that's all well and good, and I hope folks are having a blast -- but it makes these sort of "ack, please help me, I need advice or opinions!" threads go crazy sometimes.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 12 2011, 09:33 PM

I don't have anything against house rules per se, in fact I'm working on an extensive houserule template that'll alter a lot of the SR game, but when you severely alter the rules of the game then you should expect problems. That was the intent of my post. I'm putting a lot of thought and work into my rules template to try and make sure it'll at least have a semblence of balance - this group, on the other hand, seems to have simply changed or altered things without pausing a moment to try and think about the reason those rules are there.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Sep 12 2011, 09:35 PM

Heh. I always found Movement funny that way. It mentions allowing you to move that fast but nothing about the results of being able to move that fast(friction, control, slamming into brick walls....)

Posted by: camberiu Sep 12 2011, 09:36 PM

Thank you to all the folks who provided kind and constructive feedback for my original question and scenario. I think I got the information I needed to validate my interpretation of the Conceal power and also some great suggestions on how to balance the game when players are using it. I think it is this kind of generous and friendly attitude that makes the board so great.So, thank you very much for your good will and help.

It was really not my intention to turn this into a virtual trial of my gaming group and how we choose to play SR. It is unfortunate that the discussion veered out of the original scenario and question that I raised, as those were general questions and not directly tied to my particular game or adventure.

Finally, I'd like to point out that not using dodge for ranged attacks is actually an optional rule listed on the SR4A core book page 75, and not something we pulled out of our asses:

"Rather than handling all combat as an Opposed Test, you can handle
ranged combat as a success test with a threshold based on range (1 short,
2 medium, 3 Long, 4 extreme). some situational modifiers will affect
threshold rather than dice pool, such as blind fire, cover, etc."

With this I end my participation in this topic.

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 12 2011, 09:43 PM

Except for the most part, it didn't veer off course, and that's. I'm not going to say the magic system isn't abusable(many things in SR are), but in a by-the-book campaign, so long as the GM understands the rules there are plenty of tools to deal with it.

You're campaign has a number of rules that encourage people to abuse the magic system, and a GM who doesn't fully understand the magic system and how to counter it, as evidenced by the houserules and the impact the magic system is making on the game. The problem isn't that concealment is broken, it is rather powerful yes, but I don't think any more broken that anything else spirits can do, and most people allow spirits in their game with little problems, the problem is that concealment is breaking your game.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Sep 12 2011, 09:54 PM

camberiu:
Just a thought: The stealth bomber idea you had would have to fly relatively low. The higher you go, the less mana there is and the less powerful conceal becomes.

Theres also background counts to contend with.Wards and other astral barriers would work as well. A quickened astral barrier, for instance.

Side note: I don't think anyone is putting how you play the game on trial. But it can be frustrating when you ask for help and then shoot down our advice because it doesn't fit your houserules. Now that we know your houserules, I'm sure this discussion can be even more helpful assuming you are still willing to participate.

Posted by: camberiu Sep 12 2011, 09:55 PM

Please do tell which advice I shot down?

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 10:00 PM

Well, no, actually, we can't. I mean, not for lack of trying, and there's nothing wrong with his house rules -- but they're responding in a way that makes sense, as players, given their circumstances.

1) The players are terrified of mundane combat, so will go to terrific lengths to avoid it.

2) Since there's no "electronics guy" on the team, they don't seem to be running into electronics-guy-work-to-do, or worrying about high-tech details (like how doors are made). So there's not a lot of electronics security to worry about, just guards with eyes (who, because of #1, they're desperate not to fight).

3) Spirits are great at helping you to avoid mundane guards-with-eyes security.
(a) High Force spirits are even better at it.
(b) Spirits don't spend Edge to resist being summoned, no matter what.

Add it all together? And yeah. Summoning a high Force spirit, in order to help with resisting guards-with-eyes security, kind of seems like the way to go. Mundane combat is terrifying, mundane security/electronics is a non-issue, so only two facets of the game really even remain; magic, and social skills. They're relying on magic, because they've kind of been funneled towards it -- and it sounds like the NPCs are relying on magic, too -- and they're both going right for the gusto with Force 6-12 spirits, because why not?

So it's a tough one to fix. Some of the players seem to feel it's not even broken, so I don't know if he's actually out to "fix" anything or not, to be honest.

Posted by: camberiu Sep 12 2011, 10:07 PM

Please see the original post.


1 - I never asked for help on house rules.

2 - I never asked for help on how my players are reacting to any house rule.

3 - I never said that anything on my game was broken.

I gave a few simple scenarios, all under the assumption of strict SR4A rules and asked for feedback. That is all. A few people were kind enough to give their input and even valuable suggestions. That was great. Thank you. Anything else is just beating a dead horse on something that should be a non-issue.

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 12 2011, 11:27 PM

The title of the thread is "Concealment Power too powerful", you're first post talks about how you think the power breaks the game and uses an in game example. So far it's been express that a large part of why concealment is so powerful in your game is the way your game is run. If the game was run RAW with a more diverse party and the GM used effective magic counters, concealment would not be such a big problem.

You can't say that how the game is being run is irrelevant, because it's entirely relevant. If I use a house rule that says that gel rounds do 8S damage and ignore armor, and then complain about how gel rounds are overpowered, the forums would be right in mentioning that it's my rules making gel rounds overpowered, not gel rounds as per RAW.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 12 2011, 11:41 PM

Great... now that he knows of alternate ways around the Concealment power, there goes our "black trenchcoat", sneaking method. I better make sure I buy some hand held scanners to pick up pressure sensors & other stuff when we have to be all sneaky. I also better start a thread on advice on how to be a good covert ops person when you don't have the skills or toys...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 12 2011, 11:44 PM

I was wondering when you'd find a wooden door instead of a metal one myself. Let you guys have concealment.

Posted by: Critias Sep 12 2011, 11:53 PM

On the internet, conversations sometimes do that. Relax. It's not that big a deal.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 13 2011, 12:01 AM

The internet... designed to allow simple comments/conversations to develop into full on wars over nothing... and porn.

Posted by: Traul Sep 13 2011, 12:04 AM

Now I am wondering: what are you guys playing? Your table does not look like the most hospitable place for a sammy, and you have no technical skills. Is it a mage-only group?

Posted by: Critias Sep 13 2011, 12:15 AM

I believe they said they have a street samurai, a "sport rifle adept," and a mage. I can't seem to find the post now that I'm looking for it, of course.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 13 2011, 12:50 AM

Out of respect to the GM, no more is to be said about our game. Allow me to say that it's been through many IRL & IG changes. Players who have come & gone. Characters who have done the same. It's current incarnation is slightly shifted towards 1 direction/theme.

I will say that with all the changes, it's been pretty fun. Sure, we've had headaches & such, but some also great memories. Sonic Ball-Tap. Greatest melee attack ever made... if there was such a thing as a critical success on a critical failure when meeting a Johnson, those 3 words describe it.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 13 2011, 01:52 AM

It is difficult to have a productive conversation when the goalposts representing the base background assumptions keep getting shifted.




-k

Posted by: Neraph Sep 13 2011, 06:43 AM

Sounds like a normal game to me, no reason to get defensive and almost reverent all of a sudden.

Posted by: Irion Sep 13 2011, 07:11 AM

Honestly: What do you expect, if high force spirits do not use edge to resist summoning.
Every half a brain player is going for a mage.
At what point do you think a sam is able to take on a force 12 spirit?
If I was to build such a sam in BP I would guess around 800 to 1000 BP no limitation on cash and availability.

(If we would look at a human spirit, using his "spells without any sustaining modifier" and Edge you will be looking at 1500+ BP)

This is so far of the scope of any campaign, it can not work.

But in magic run, concealment is not a problem. Because a force 12 Spirit, still has 12 dice to spot you.

And of course the players are scared as hell of mundane combat. Everything able to deal with a force 12 spirit will instant kill any PC of less than 400 Karma.

(It is like using Karmagen letting a player start with an ally spirit and wonder why this force 12 ally spirt for cheap 96 Karma is kicking the shit out of your game...)
High force spirits are off the scope of SR. If you let those things in your game, the game starts to break apart.
I guess there hundreds of topics like this...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 13 2011, 07:19 AM

Wrong. It's easy to get a dicepool for firearms over 20 and SnS ammo chews spirits down. It's worse if you FA Narrow Burst them.

Hell, you can afford laser weapons on a 400 BP character, or flamethrowers, or sniper rifles with appropriate ammo, any of which will do substantial damage while laughing at the spirit's ItNW.

Posted by: Irion Sep 13 2011, 08:21 AM

@Neraph
SnS needs 7 net hits against a force 12 spirit. ( 21 dice)
Not to mention you would need to hit it first. A reaction from 14 to 16 (core book) means you are looking at about 35 to 37 dice.
Thats quite beyond the scope of a starting char...

Yes, Flamethrowers and Laserweapon look a bit better (8P and 9P). But it will still take 4 net hits to scratch the spirit.
Sniper rifles are off the table anyway.
(The only way it would work is to insist, that the armor penetration mod would stick with the armor penetration mod of SnS. But than again it can be argued, that armor penetration does not apply to ITNW...)
The only weapon to hit a spirit of force 12 or higher is the Ares Gauss rifle.

But having the theoretical ability to hurt something, does not mean you are able to kill it.
How would it go?
Spirit flys on the astral.
Spirt finds the sam it likes to kill.
Spirits goes physical behind him. Now it is time for a surprise test, the spirit getting the +3 or even +6.
But it does not matter, because he is up to 26+X anyway.
So first action: Spirit hits the sam with natural weapon, inflicting 12+ hits damage(24+ dice translate in 8 damage) resulting in 20 damage.
(Or the poor spirit does not have any natural weapon but the energy aura instead. Making not much of a differance. Or is using elemental attack or whatever...
Having a water spirit with acid damge is quite evil, since the restriction for acid spells would not apply...)
Now it depends on how you handle ranged weapon in melee,if the sam survives.
Well, sure it will depend. But I guess if you try to get such a high dicepool for firearms, there is not left that much for armor.
But, well I guess it is somehow possible, but this won't help if the spirit is using an elemental attack or something like that.
Not to mention engulf.
And we are not even hitting on powers like fear and influance.

Posted by: Bodak Sep 13 2011, 09:07 AM

That's what the Guard power is for - just summon a spirit with both and at least two services.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 13 2011, 09:50 AM

In prevoius editions "movement" was described as the spirit makes traveling easier, moving obstacles out of the way etc. I always asked myself how this makes you walk with 200m/round.^^

Posted by: pbangarth Sep 13 2011, 02:24 PM

I know I have said this before, but there are arguments being made here that have also been said before.

Magic has the potential to override other aspects of the game, if and only if the GM does not apply the constraints to magic built into the game, both in the explicit rules and in the 'fluff'.

As I understand it, the incident in question here was a 'do or die' situation. The PC figured he was dead if he didn't pull out all the stops, so he went for it. That's great. It makes for a good story over a few beers: "Remember when Flammo saved our asses with that mofo big spirit?"

But:

1) Use of Edge or not, repeated use of this level of magic will sooner or later kill the user. Russian roulette, anyone?

2) The world in many places is antithetical to magic use, either in its own intrinsic magical nature, or because of the existence of all kinds of technology. NPCs know this. The tougher the NPCs, the more they know it.

3) As per SR4A, page 192, "Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected
by them, which is detectable using assensing." So a force 12 spell or the summoning of a Force 12 spirit will leave a tell-tale signature for 12 hours, unless overtly erased. In a world in which magic over Force 3 is illegal for most people, this signature will draw the most lethal response available. No matter how tough your PC, someone/something in the world is tougher. Every time the spirit (the one whose signature links directly to the PC) does something magical, like Concealment, it leaves the same trace. "You want me to clean up after myself? That will be another service, sir."

And cleaning the signature up would take 12 complex actions. So, not to leave calling cards everywhere the PC goes, he is taking, not 1 complex action, but 13 to do one thing undetectably.

4) The list goes on....

I have seen in someone's signature in his DS posts a quote something like, "If a GM doesn't understand the hacking rules, hacking gets weaker. If a GM doesn't understand the magic rules, magic gets stronger." Perhaps a little black and white, but he does have a point. As a GM myself, I worry about work in the matrix, because I don't understand it (not having bothered to spend the time to figure it out), and welcome players' help when we go there. As a GM, I am not the least bit afraid of PCs with magic, and I don't have to go out of my way to gimp them. The world as written in the books already has it out for them.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 13 2011, 03:36 PM

Lurkeroutthere, 5th post of this thread.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 13 2011, 03:50 PM

Not defensive at all. Sorry, forgot to put a smiley on my previous post. Here you go... LOL!

Posted by: Irion Sep 13 2011, 04:03 PM

@pbangarth

This is quite a lie. It won't if you have some dice to throw around.
Yes, theoretically the spirit could roll 12 hits out of 12 dices. This would translate into 24 DV. Sounds a lot. The chance is 1 to 500.000.
Yes, it might happen. So after maybe 500 times (Once per run should be often), translating to 5 to 10k karma. I guess with that you might even survive it.
And to be clear here: Everything short of heavy weapon does not call for force 12, force 9 would be more than enough.

Yes, if you go for a BC of 4 and more, Spirits are stopped in their track...


Well, actually not really. The signature is only at the point you activated the spell/summoned the spirit etc.

And a signature is not that big of a problem.
Find siganture, memorize signature and find mage. Well, there are bigger threads, I guess...

Posted by: Seth Sep 13 2011, 06:07 PM

Well said. I share your views.

None of the shadowrun systems are perfect. They all work OK though. If you find they are broken, then a reread of the rules or a question on this forum usually answers it. You will always get a flamewars around "spirits are broken", but personally I am finding that nothing is more "broken" than a sniper, and they exist in the real world, and are as deadly as the game portrays in the real world.

My personal list of broken stuff is:

• direct combat spells need a tiny tweak (it's only overcasting that causes problems)
• critter powers need to be easier to resist
• Pixies are too good
• Drakes aren't good enough

That's about it. Concealment is cool, but the bad guys use it too, and the perception die pool for most people is adequately high.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 13 2011, 06:26 PM

Its not so much that the magic/matrix rules are broken so much as a GM that doesn't fully understands the rules doesn't know how to counter magic (i.e. using background count). Likewise one that doesn't understand the matrix doesn't know how to make it useful. We all tend to think of it being like the internet, but it's not.

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 13 2011, 06:45 PM

A Christian Theurgist begged a high archangel to come to his aid since the Black Magician had an Arch Devil (both Force 12) who he made some sort of bargain with: he prays so hard he bleeds. The Shaman calls on a powerful Elemental to defend him due to his years of service. The Blood Magician had a few vats of O positive.

Not every Spirit is belligerent or unwilling, even at that power. Not all summonings are viewed as degrading either.

This doesn't mean Magic can't severely cripple a game (master) that is unprepared for it.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 13 2011, 06:52 PM

The mentalist projects forth the perfect vision of himself, literally pouring his soul into its creation and spilling blood as his physical body deteriorates in the presence of such self-perfection.

You get the idea.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 13 2011, 07:10 PM

My friend has a quote along the lines of "Curse you, internet; your lack of conveying inflection has robbed me again!"

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 13 2011, 07:26 PM

Indeed.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Sep 13 2011, 08:06 PM

Suggestion regarding the original post. Instead of a negative dice modifier to the perciever, use it as a positve modifier to the the infiltrator.

By RAW though things to keep in mind:
Don't forget to add in the perceivers bonus's (magnification, untrasound, actively looking, etc, etc).
The difficulty of infiltrating from point A to point B (note it is not always a given that 1 hit=a successful infiltration roll).
Astral perception is different from physical, so modifers there are different.

If your players are using force 6 spirits willy nilly, they should be on runs with equal difficulty. From the one players response though, I don't think this is the case.

Posted by: LostProxy Sep 13 2011, 08:09 PM

We fought a force 12 spirit, a force 6 spirit, and then two spirits who could have been anywhere between 7-10. And we can't dodge ranged attacks.

Yes, they are of equal or greater difficulty.

Posted by: Irion Sep 13 2011, 08:16 PM

What do you mean by that?

Posted by: LostProxy Sep 13 2011, 08:24 PM

House rule he mentioned earlier in this thread. There is no dodging ranged attacks. It's a rule from 3rd edition and offered as an optional rule in one of the books. Can't remember which.

To be absolutely clear what I mean is no Ranged attack Vs Reaction or dodge. Cover and what not still applies. But that's not much.

Posted by: pbangarth Sep 14 2011, 05:46 AM

Come on, man. Contest an opinion or even the facts without calling a guy a liar.

Assuming the mage can deal with a Drain of 6 or so ( a pool of 18), the spirit doesn't need the extreme case of 12 hits. 8 or more should do nicely to give a DV of 16P, 6 of which are handled by the Drain resistance, the rest of which kill the mage. The statistics make it look unlikely. For example:

10 times ==> ~.02 chance of 8 or more happening
100 times ==> ~.18
500 times ==> ~.61
1000 times ==> ~.85

So sure you can say he's safe for hundreds of summonings, but it can happen on the first try, and sooner or later it will happen. My experience trying this kind of over-summoning is that sooner is more likely. Maybe I just have bad luck.

... or any number of readily available technological solutions.


And at every point/subject where the spirit uses any of its powers. Yes, the particular Concealment power makes it hard to notice you, but if they do, the summoner/spirit is seriously marked.


Not much bigger threats than when the entire police magical squad is searching for you... you having broken a law so blatantly and with such power they fear you and send everything they have.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 14 2011, 05:56 AM

Huh... I wonder who's on the FBI's top 100 most wanted list in SR 2070... what did they have to do in order to get on there?

Posted by: Irion Sep 14 2011, 06:44 AM

@pbangarth

This would be a good point, if the run itself would not be a risk.
So you are about to choose:
2 percent chance to die in 10 times or about 50% chance to die on the run. (If the GM is using force 12 spirits make it a 100% chance to die)

And even with 16 physical. You will edge up your drain test and live. (Right, you may forget about the run and you will be eaten by the force 12 spirit of the opposition. But this would have happened if you did not try too.)


Thats not that clear for sustained powers. If it is that way, you will get a lot of astral fingerprints all over the place. Still hard to find the mage it belongs too. Nearly impossible.
But it really does not matter, because it would be still the mark of the spirit. So the will need to find him on his metaplane. I would not walk into the metaplane of a force 12 guardian or fire spirit. (Have to check, maybe the search power might help..)

Depends on your Gameworld. If spirits never use edge to resist summoning, this means they will be used. Maybe not force 12, but force 8,9 and 10.


Anything mundane to oppose a force 12 spirit has to be extreamly powerful.
The only gun, able to really hurt it, is a gauss rifle handled by a guy with quite a dicepool. What would this weapon do to any mundane runner short of several 100 Karma and ware worth in the millions? (And this weapon is only a danger, because the rules ignore how hard to handle it should be in confined space)

In short: A force 12 spirit is an "I WIN"-button only needed in situations of "you die".
If your GM is not out to teamkill the group, a force 9 spirit is enough. This thing is still immune to 80% of the weapons in the book.
And here the same stuff applys only with less drain.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 14 2011, 07:41 AM

Not really that important, I'd just like to add that the spirit wouldn't get a reaction or dodge either in their gameworld (I assume), so the dice pools for the character to damage the spirit wouldn't have to be as high as you say...

Posted by: Irion Sep 14 2011, 08:53 AM

@phlapjack77
Yes, this is true. But the same is true for the spirit. So some force 12 firespirit would turn that guy to ashes first INI-Pass.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 02:21 PM

Ummmmm... Not really.

ITNW for a Force 12 Spirit. 24
Gause Rifle: AP Half -4

That leaves that force 10 SPirit with exactly 8 Points of remaining ITNW. Gause Rifle does 9p + Net.
So, I net hit is 10P, soaked with Body +8 Dice. For a DP of 20 (Force 12 remember). the average soak is 3, and the Bought soak is 5. This will hurt that Force 12 Spirit, and that is only a single net hit. I am betting on more than a single net hit from a PC gunner who is going up against a Fore 12 Spirit (He probably is throwing 16-20 DIce after all).

Of course, the Spirit can dodge, for ~24 Dice (Dependant upon Type), but that means spirit does nothing else. Otherwise he only has ~12 Dice to React out of the way. My Money is on the Gunner at that point. And woe be unto him if the Gunner has 3 passes. Spirit loses at that point, because he is either disrupted or ineffective.

Of course, in OP's world, the Spirit gets no dodge at all. Yes, the Spirit ashes one opponent; But the others have the potential to swiss cheese the spirit.

Anyways...

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 14 2011, 02:41 PM

Don't forget Edge, which a Force 12 spirit should be using quite liberally.

DP 20 with an Edge of 12 gives an expected 13 hits on the soak test.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 02:52 PM

What does a DP of 20 and Edge 4 Give you for the Shooter's net hits? Spirit is still wounded. Do that 2 or 3 times, and Spirit is back on his home plane.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 14 2011, 02:57 PM

A LOT of theory. Wow. The SR reality looks different, you know it. Arguing on the internet is like winning at the special olympics....i think you know the rest.^^

Posted by: pbangarth Sep 14 2011, 04:50 PM

I agree wholeheartedly, as I did earlier.

I stayed away from talking about Edge, because then we start talking about spirits using Edge, and that's an old, acrimonious discussion.


I don't think a sustained power leaves a trail wherever it goes. I do think whenever a spirit implements a power, it leaves a signature. And the spirit's signature is linked to the summoner's. Enough hits on assensing and you see that link.

Whne I talk about technology, I don't just mean guns for shooting the spirit, I also means detectors, barriers, traps, diversions, etc. that are available to the most mundane of opponents. And as far as magical impediments, a simple ward is enough to screw up a lot of magical plans.

For the most part, I agree with this opinion. I firmly believe no such thing as an "I WIN" button exists in Shadowrun.

Posted by: pbangarth Sep 14 2011, 04:58 PM

As an afterthought, not completely germane to this discussion though, I would like to draw your attention to http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=35824&view=findpost&p=1106037 post.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 14 2011, 05:19 PM

Yes this is how it works.

Yes my team always uses this tactic.

Yes they always manage to get caught anyway. : )



How does this 'win'? It gets two IPs manifested. And the bad guys don't even need to shoot at it. If they have any brains at all, they'll shoot at the damn mage. I just don't see how this prevents a GM from 'teamkilling' the group. (Which in my experience a GM would not do in the way that involved rolling dice unless a team had thoroughly earned it.)

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 14 2011, 06:02 PM

Assuming that the shooter will almost certainly be rerolling hits (as opposed to adding Edge dice) he would expect 12 hits. In the context of the gaming group at the centre of this thread (i.e. no dodging ranged attacks) the spirit should expect a nearly fatal wound. By RAW it would more likely be only 2 or 3 boxes (given an Edged dodge roll providing an extra 7 expected hits). With a damage track of around 14 boxes that's very minor, but in either case the spirit can return 'fire' and hit the shooter with a 24 DP power (- injury mods) and that would be it.

Point of order - I'm not making the point that Force 12 spirits are unkillable or even necessarily broken, but if numbers are being crunched we must be thorough.

Posted by: Irion Sep 14 2011, 06:20 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You got me wrong.
The gauss rifle is the only weapon that can hurt such a spirit.
You need quite a pool to get over reaction +1net hit. (Would be around 15-19) (visibility modifiers etc. ) (Yes, if the spirit is not able to dodge...)

But what does such a rifle do to your avarage runner? (24 Armor is not that easy to get as is a body of 10 to 14)

@pbangarth

Well, my point was, that spirits should use edge. (If they do not, the summoner still can. The one has nothing to do with the other)

I would go for: Edge = Force/2, spirits edge up the test on summoning and binding. Now a force 12 spirit throws 18 dice to resist. (And probably will be able to reroll 3)
Thats something you do not use light minded.
For a force 4 spirit it is 6 instead of 4 and he might reroll 1or 2. So not really a big deal


Well, of course there are runs to be made, were such a spirit is not the solution.

@Neurosis

Because a mage who is able to summon a force 9,10,11 or 12 spirit is most of the time not able to fight Yes, some super focused builds who have never seen anything except their gun, are born rich with restricted gear etc...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 09:27 PM

It is NOT the only weapon that can kill the spirit, unless you completely disallow weapons that by RAW would cause harm to that soirit.. Just thougt that I would point that out.

Well, if the Runner is armored, it likely reduces him to a few points of armor or less, and then he takes 10p+ just like the spirit.

I have a human Body Guard... Body 9, Armor 12. He survivced 6 Hits from a sniper using a Barrett and AV Rounds. It can be done. Without a lot of Edge even (Spent two to aid in soaking) Of course, he was shooting through the building (Penthouse/Elevator/Armored Glass/Reinforced Walls/Etc.) to hit us, but Meh. Everything is going to be situational. Anything can be killed. *shrug*

Posted by: Seerow Sep 14 2011, 09:29 PM

How did you get a human with 9 body? The only way I can think of would be pretty roundabout and cheesier than I'd expect from you, no offense.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 09:42 PM

Full Borg Conversion (45 Limbs, Torso and Head Shells)... But not Drone.
Unfortunately, he does not have any armor in that conversion *Shakes Head*

Is there another way without Metagenic Surge, Genetic Optimization, and the Enhanced attribute Quality? RAW, I know, but pretty Cheesy.
Well, maybe not cheesy, but damned expensive.

Posted by: Seerow Sep 14 2011, 09:47 PM

Ah that would do it. Yeah that's kinda silly to get body on your limb replacements but not armor, given the armor is generally much more useful thanks to stacking.

I was thinking he was doing something silly like metagenetic improvement+genetic optimization+adrenal pump (or whatever the bio is that gives +1 to all physical), which is why I said it sounded too cheesy.





Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic about spirit powers.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 09:49 PM

Well, he can always wear armor. The capacity slots he had, he used for a lot of other necessary Things. He wears Either 10/6 armor in "Business Attire" or 12/7 Armor in "Camouflage Utilities." These could go a bit higher now that War and Attitude are out.
Yes, the other route is a bit cheesy.

Posted by: Seerow Sep 14 2011, 10:04 PM

Even with Arsenal he could have gotten himself much higher than 12/7...especially with 9 body but that's besides the point.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2011, 10:12 PM

Yes, He could have. Blatantly obvious armor tends to leave him a little Obvious (Even more so than the visible cranial shell does). He tends to stay a bit low-key most of the time. But yes, he could wear some atrocious combinations of armor should he desire to do so.

Posted by: Udoshi Sep 14 2011, 10:35 PM

I dunno, I've occasionally considered making Heavy Weapons Guy in shadowrun - a regular old Human who meets the Body 8 minimum to fire Heavy Weapons without proper bracing from arsenal's More Ways to Die section.
Not even making him GOOD, just enough to take a typical heavy weapon trolls place on a team.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2011, 04:51 AM

If you've paid attention to this thread than you'd understand that the group we're giving advice to does not allow Reaction or Dodge for firearms.

Posted by: Bodak Sep 15 2011, 06:36 AM

Manifesting has no effect on IPs. If it is manifesting, it still has the same number of IPs as it does when purely on the Astral plane, not manifesting. It won't care if goons shoot at it while it is only manifesting as it has no physical presence in that form - it's only a psychic projection to selected minds.

As you say though the mage, if physically present, is at a much greater risk from shooters - especially if identified as a mage. So always carry a cyberdeck and firearm - keep them guessing!

Posted by: Irion Sep 15 2011, 07:14 AM

@Neraph
Yeah, which leads to the runners beeing dead one shot too. (Unless the took same real cheese to it. Yes I know, you play after rules no one would even think of, so I guess your PC could easy surive beeing shot at with a railgun several times... But if we go to cheeseland, ITNW does not care about armor penetration. (Which is quite reasonable anyway, because the bullets will pass through an airspirit anyway. So it would actually not be a factor.)

The avarage runner, not pulling some cheese, has maybe 9 to 20 points of armor and a body from 3 to 9.
Yeah, you could build goons who are a danger for a high force spirit but could be killed by a sam. Mostly by giving them low INI and close to no armor but high damage.
So you would need to summon low level spirits, which would still kill the goons and could easy be replaced.
Or your GM could allow a beeing with the brains of Einstein and the intuition of the mentalist (do not find a real world example right now) to use some tactics. Which would increase their "power" quite big time.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2011, 03:51 PM

I take offense and this is not accurate. Everything I say is pure RAW (or can be allowed by it) except when I talk to someone about a houserule they have. R4 freeware Skillsofts? According to the sidebar on page 110 of Unwired it's perfectly legal. Using the Calling rules as an AI in a drone body? Again, completely RAW. Getting Inhabitation Spirits to Inhabit weapons a-la Bloodmourne? Calling rules say it's RAW.

Saying ItNW (= Hardened Armor = Armor) is not affected by AP? Not RAW.

The Horseman of the Apocalypse. A Bod 1 character can have 32 armor just from it. I fail to see how using the Modification Rules as presented is "cheese."

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2011, 03:55 PM

Every single thing you mentioned is the definition of cheese. It doesn't mean 'illegal'. And the more of those things you combine, the more exponentially cheesy it gets.

Posted by: pbangarth Sep 15 2011, 05:18 PM

Mmmmm... creamy, smelly, Québecois, exponential cheese. Mmmmm.....

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 15 2011, 05:25 PM

Now I want to design a game system (likely intended for a computer multiplayer pvp) that uses this concept of "exponential cheese."

Such that everything is so horribly overpowered and seemingly unintentional stacking that it should not be balanced but it is.
Simply due to the fact that if you make yourself, say, "immune to bullets" then the other player(s) pull out melee or explosives (which every class will have one or the other, or both at the expense of not having bullets).

Is it cheating to be immune to bullets? Yes. Is it fair? Yes.

"Fine, you're immune to bullets. That's ok, I've got explosives."

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2011, 05:26 PM

I still don't see it. Choosing an Assault Rifle over a pistol is then "cheese," as is choosing Ex-Ex ammo over standard. If you see something allowed by RAW and utilize it I fail to see how it is "cheesy." Being a gun-adept is "cheese." Using tasers is "cheesy" because you ignore most of their armor. Dealing Stun damage to a Troll is "cheese" because you are targeting their weaker Condition Monitor.

It's not "cheese" - it is use of superior tactics.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 15 2011, 05:37 PM

So riding around in a segway cocoon with tank armor is "superior tactics"?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2011, 05:46 PM

Neraph, that's simply the definition. That's what the word means. It's not a choice between 'cheese' and 'superior tactics'. It's the *over* use of legal-but-optimal tactics, *usually* the result of poor game balance and/or insufficient synergy oversight. 'A' is fine, 'B' is fine, 'C' is fine, but 'ABC' is problematic for the *game*. It's a sliding scale, a continuum, but the more extreme, the more obviously 'cheesy' it is; and, as I said, it multiplies as you combine them.

The object is not to win. It is to have a fun game in a world of balanced challenges. 'Cheese' in any game creates un-fun monocultures; cookie-cutters, noob-tubes, and so on.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2011, 05:46 PM

Absolutely. With a Full Mechanical Arm or a Weapon Mount you can still attack also and you do all of this with some of the least threat to your character.

In fact, in Ragewind's 200+ armor megadrone instance, the only way I could think of to "kill" him was to collapse a building on him (then War! came out and they had an "it dies" button in it). He and the drone would survive, but enough time under that wreckage would eventually be the end of both of them.

When faced with things that look "out of the box" you must think that way yourself to overcome them. It is no different than the revolution that firearms had on "conventional" warfare or how guerilla warefare has revolutionized the old "stand in a line and each side take turns shooting until no one moves anymore" warfare.

EDIT:
Yes, but people insist that "Vehicle" + "Armor" + "Rigger Coccoon" = cheese.... but that is exactly what the rules allow for! In fact, that's what the logical end to those rules is!

Posted by: Irion Sep 15 2011, 05:49 PM

@Neraph

Well, it would break the thread to discuss it, but both is supportable.
But strictly RAW immunity ignores net hits, see below why:
(Like I said, the thing about armor penetration is also missing... But it is only in brackets if you look at hardend armor. So there are those two interpretations. But if your really go RAW without thinking, immunities ignore AP)







But it might not be working like you assume it is working....

(I do not know who said it but: Magic is only as long overpowered as long as the GM does not know the rules.

And nothing is stopping a GM from hitting you with encumbrance rules for that. (Nothing in the book says, that cyber or natural armor does not count against this limit. The only thing really mentioned is magic armor in the FAQ)

Posted by: Critias Sep 15 2011, 05:51 PM

Unless things are so "outside the box" that to "revolutionize" anything would mean an end to the RPG that people felt they were signing up to play. Bringing WWII-era green army men to a wargame where people were planning a Napoleonics battle might mean that (to you) you've got a revolutionary tactical, strategic, armor, and munitions advantage; but it might also mean (to them) that you're a prick who's ruining the game for other people.

And so what counts as "cheese" versus what counts as "superior tactics" varies from game to game, and game table to game table. Agree on it for yourself, your friends, and your game group. Bickering about it on the internet as though the terms can be handily defined in a universal fashion is just a waste of time and a mood-wrecker.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 15 2011, 05:52 PM

"Cheese" is kinda subjective.

However, if you are doing something for the sake of "power" that the designers arguably had not considered or intended, it's possibly verging on "cheese". Even if the designers DID intend it, if your fellow players and GM are rolling their eyes, it's possibly getting into cheese-land.

It also matters what kinda campaign you are playing. if everyone has dice pools in the 16-20 range, then a 22 probably isn't too cheesy. But a 22 in a average 12 DP game likely is.

For example, I play a mystic adept rigger pixie in Shadowrun Missions. She's a Voodoo-variant tradition. He dice pools are in the 16-24 range when the campaign averages in the 12-14 range. She effectively has 40+ armor at most times and is pretty much immune to gas, disease, and other biological-affecting attacks. She gets to fold most combat and physical skills into Gunnery or Pilot. People roll their eyes at the character constantly. I freely admit the character is utterly, completely cheesetastic. I am under no illusions on that. She's pink-mohawk personified.

My other character is an elderly merc character. He is optimized nine ways to sunday, yet I haven't had anyone so much as raise an eyebrow at him. This is because I deliberately picked only optimizations for him that cannot be argued against, ones that are clear, unambiguous, and without any grey. He's my "black trenchcoat" serious-serious character, so I keep on the conservative side for him.

There is a thin line between "Cheese" and "Optimization". But a good gauge on if you've crossed it is how other players and GMs react.



-k

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 15 2011, 06:00 PM

DP doesn't always say that much. In a game with DPs of 16 all 'round, the guy who has 16 drain resist dice has probably been trying hardest to get there.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 15 2011, 06:14 PM

Rigger Cocoons are for riggers not for mounted vehicular weaponry piloted by a gunnery adept.

Posted by: Zaranthan Sep 15 2011, 06:49 PM

"Rigger" cocoons are nicknamed after the people who are usually in them. There's nothing stopping you from tossing the VIP you're extracting into it to keep them safe from stray gunfire (and prevent them from escaping at the same time).

In fact, sticking your gunnery adept teammate in there to handle the guns while you focus on driving is a fantastic idea! Not only can you each specialize in your roles harder, if somebody forces a crash test, you don't lose an action's worth of return fire trying to stay on the road.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2011, 09:44 PM

It's all about the combinations, as I said. A normal driver in a normal car, that's fine. When it's a pixie in a cocoon in a motorcycle (arguably!) converted into a tank mech, *that's* an issue.

Neraph, it will never be relevant to argue 'the rules allow it'. And the logical *extremes* of game rules tend to be problematic, because rules aren't perfect.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 16 2011, 04:42 AM

Disagree. We can start another thread on it if you want.


Eh, that's why you Bind it. Then it works like you think it does.

Except that encumberance only applies to worn armor. You add the vehicle's armor to yours, but you're not wearing the vehicle.

EDIT:
He started it. Kind of.

Posted by: Irion Sep 16 2011, 05:38 AM

@Neraph

There is nothing to discuss. Once it is the modified DV, the other time it is not. I really no not see any room for a RAW-discussion here. (RAI there is, granted)

Well, it is never stated like that.

The vehicle is " wearing" the armor, and guess what it is limited by.

RAW discussions with you are impossible in my experience. You go from "I am right, show me where the rules say I am wrong, explicitly".
Meaning you shift the burden of prove to the other side and expect them to prove a negativ. Thats like proving you did not do something. Mostly it is impossible if you did not plan for it ahead.
It is useless to have a discussion like that, because you could argue that adding red strips to an car makes it go faster. I could not prove the rules say it does not.

Posted by: Traul Sep 16 2011, 09:56 AM

Before calling it superior or even tactics, you should define the objective. What good does a minitank do to a runner? I don't want to run with someone who cannot climb stairs, fit through the side exits, hide in the blind spot of the corridor cameras,...

With non-lethal weapons instead of an LMG, it could make a nice riot control tool, though. Much more flexible than a Citymaster.

Posted by: Zaranthan Sep 16 2011, 01:17 PM

The Walker Mode mod handles stairs just fine. As for hiding, this is a "big guns" sort of setup. You wouldn't bring it with you unless you were expecting to break out the Heavy Weapons dice.


Instead? What's this "instead" business? They make gel rounds for machine guns, too. Nice, big ones with powder charges that still lower their targets' armor ratings.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2011, 01:25 PM

Just so you know, Gel Rounds are NOT Non-Lethal, they are just Less Lethal. Especially when fired from "Nice Big Machine Guns with Powder Charges that still lower their Target's Armor Ratings."

Posted by: Zaranthan Sep 16 2011, 01:28 PM

You're just as likely to die from a taser hit, or a bunch of flash-bangs, or anything else that does a whole mess of Stun damage at once.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2011, 01:31 PM

Yes, you are... Which was the point. Non-Lethal is a Myth.

Posted by: Traul Sep 16 2011, 01:35 PM

SR4 has freeze foam for such circumstances.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2011, 04:25 PM

True, forgot about that...

Posted by: Seerow Sep 16 2011, 04:30 PM

Stairs still exist in 2070? I thought it was all elevators now.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2011, 04:50 PM

They do indeed... The corps did not tear down all the slums to provide Elevators to the SINless after all.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2011, 04:53 PM

Fire code.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 16 2011, 04:57 PM

Is it, though?



Precisely. ShadowRun isn't a game of winning. It's a game of losing as slowly as possible.

And while a tank wins combat, it isn't the best for not losing.

Posted by: Paul Sep 16 2011, 05:00 PM

I fail to see any reason for them not exist. People, even in 2072, are still people. Ladder wells, or stairways , are more than just functional in some cases they are aesthetically pleasing in some cases.

Posted by: Zaranthan Sep 16 2011, 05:20 PM

Why else would you need 30 armor?

Posted by: Irion Sep 16 2011, 05:30 PM

Stairs existed for over 2000 years now, I guess this won't change to 2070.
If you have legs, stairs are just a great invention.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2011, 05:42 PM

I assume he was joking. You guys are silly. Personally, all my characters have Hydraulic Jacks; they just leap to their 3rd floor flat.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2011, 07:12 PM

Cuts down on the walking anyways. Also good for leaving as well; just step off the landing onto the sidewalk.

Posted by: Zaranthan Sep 16 2011, 07:12 PM

Pfft, hydraulics are so last year. Every place worth living in has a lighter-than-air leather chair out front.

Posted by: Seerow Sep 16 2011, 07:13 PM

Good point. Our Walker tank should definitely have hydraulic jacks and 9 strength in its cyberlegs, for maximum jumping capability.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2011, 07:30 PM

Totally. Except walker mode isn't cyberlegs. Vehicles can only take arms, AFAIK.

Posted by: Seerow Sep 16 2011, 07:32 PM

Are you sure? I was under the impression Walker Mode granted the equivalent of cyberlegs, just like Mechanical Arm granted the equivalent of cyberarms.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2011, 07:42 PM

It doesn't say anything about that. And it'd be pretty overpowering if so: 4, 6, god knows how many cyberlegs for free, with free room to mod? Minidrones with minicyberlegs?

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 16 2011, 09:18 PM

Fire codes would still exist in 2070, I think. In case of power-outage/fire, there needs to be an alternative method of getting up & down floors for people.

Posted by: Traul Sep 16 2011, 10:56 PM

Or, for runners, in case the hacker loses his grasp on the building security...

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2011, 12:12 AM

Clearly in order to survive a shot from any ordinance pointed in your general direction.

Think of it this way:
If all the players are arming up and armoring up in expectation of the GM hitting them with a giant hammer, you build to survive the giant hammer.
Yes. Every run is going to be a guns blazing run, but that's apparently how TJ's games go: if we do any guns blazing, it won't be any fun because the only tactically viable solution is to be able to survive thor shots, therefor every run is not a guns blazing run.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 17 2011, 01:25 AM

And RAW discussions with you are impossible because where I actually quote rules sections in my argument, you always simply say "No." I'm not shifting the burden of proof to you - the burden of proof is on yourself for disagreeing with me in the first place, especially when I quote rules.

For example: if someone were to say that all guns shot fish in SR and you said that they do not, the way to "win" this is not to simply yell back and forth at each other but to quote a place where guns are loaded with bullets and not fish. I'm not asking you to prove me wrong, I'm asking you to prove yourself right.

EDIT:

It does not, although I think it's a fair (if used properly) House Rule.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2011, 04:46 AM

Honestly, I can't think of any relevant mods or useful effects of treating vehicle legs like cyberlegs. Gecko tips and things are already available. For *real* anthroforms, sure.

Posted by: Irion Sep 17 2011, 07:31 AM

@Neraph

Who quoted rules here? I did.
Who just handwaved them? You did.


And thats where you are wrong. You have to provide at least hints, that the guns are shooting fish.
Thats exactly what shifting the burden of proof means.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 17 2011, 10:12 AM

And again. "Master of RAW" vs. "Master of RAI".....Fight!!!!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 17 2011, 03:08 PM

I Am really curious how you got the impression that our games are centered around Blazing Guns and Characters with 30 Armor. I have never said that in the least. On the Pink Mohawk, we have our Primary GM, who centers around a 2 or so on the scale. With our current GM (Primary is taking a small break), the Scale slides to a 9. This is a rarity. And we still do not have 30 points of Armor. *Shakes Head*

Where did you get that impression from Draco18s? Maybe you are thinking of Hermit, Cain, or Neraph.

At our table, Average Skill ratings are in the 2-3 range, Armor at about 10, and the Dice Pools for Primary abilities are about 14; even in the Current Campaign we are running with our Pink Mohawk GM. I am just flabbergasted that you think we are all about the Guns Blazing. I tend to prefer, even in a PM Game, that we accomplish our goals with as little "Guns Blazing" as possible, and generally only as a last option.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2011, 03:55 PM

Reread.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 17 2011, 04:36 PM

But, this is what you said...

Which is what I don't understand. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it seems like you think (directly from your quote above) that our games are continuous run and gun, which is not the case, at all.

No worries though...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 17 2011, 08:20 PM

Yes, you selectively quoted rules, taking them out of context. Yes, I "handwaived" rules (you mean paraphrased, right?) by stating the same information using my own words. I'm not going to start it up here, since this is supposed to be about Concealment (a couple pages ago it was, too).


All you need is an idea to assert a claim. You need to quote rules to try and prove your side. The burden of proof is on the person making a claim. Whenever one disagrees with someone else, the person in disagreement should quote rules or bring proof that their idea is valid. That is the very nature of the burden of proof.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2011, 08:29 PM

I meant it in the way that due to the way you present your opinions and interpretations of the rules that if your group plays a Guns blazing game, everyone will be rolling around in virtual tanks, so you guys don't.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2011, 02:23 AM

Ahhh... Now I understand. No Worries.