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Posted by: Paul Sep 13 2011, 08:05 PM

I've just remade a character I am playing in a friends game and it seems to me that I've a lot more points to spare using the Karma Generation system than I do using BP. Normally I sit on the other side of the table as a GM, so I don't tend to get as caught up in character generation-and add to that a year long hiatus from gaming-I just wanted to see if others have had a similar experience? Sorry if this has already been covered in other threads.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 13 2011, 08:35 PM

did you use a 3x multiplier for attributes or a 5x multiplier for attributes?

also, certain things become massively more efficient when you take them with karma... so for example, if you made a technomancer that has a ton of CFs, you'd get a lot better.

but mostly, it's probably the 3x multiplier for attributes that gets people.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 13 2011, 08:41 PM

Actually, TMs get seriously shafted when it comes to CFs in Karmagen. A R5 CF is 5 BP or 19 Karma, respectively. Same thing with Foci for mages.

Generally, Karma supports diversity, while BP supports softmax specialists.

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Sep 13 2011, 08:43 PM

The geometric cost of attrib and skills make lower level attribs and skills cheaper in karma gen, but higher level ones more expensive. SO really, it just depends on the character build as to which will come out with more points.

Posted by: Irion Sep 13 2011, 08:49 PM

Depends on what rules you use for the Karma-Gen and how you build your charcter.
In general:
The higher you optimize your character the better BP.
The higher the cost for the race, the better Karma-gen
(But since the first rules for Karmagen were much too good, almost every character would have been better of using Karma gen)

Old rules:
Starting Karma 750
Races add no costs
Attributes: +1:new value*3
Skills: +1 new value*2
Skill groups: +1 new value*5
Spells: 5 Karma
Break even with BP: The value to which you have to increase your stat to break even. Since 750 Karma is almost twice 400 BP we go with 2 Karma =1 BP.
We are only looking at humans.
Attributes:
5 =40BP = 42 (never achieved for a human 1-6, bossible only for orcs and trolls. Only excaption Intuition and Logic, because of the free BP given for knowledge skills)
Skills: 6= 24 =44 also never achieved.
Spells: Well it is always 5/3= 1.66666 which is less than 750/400=1.875
So also never met.
So only high intuition and logic get out a bit ahead, because of the free points. But still karmagen would be better.

The change in the new Karma gen is, that it is now
Attribute: +1 new value*5
This means: 5= 40BP =70 (1.75)(Much closer, if we look at edge edge 6 =40BP = 90 achieved (so a modifier +1 means BP would give a better result)

Oh, and technomancer come out a bit better with BP, as long as you go with logic 5 and ressonance 5 or 6. (Komplex forms are expensive as hell in Karma gen)

Posted by: Paul Sep 13 2011, 09:25 PM

Where do I find the new rules? Is that an SR4A thing? I have SR4A in PDF, but I tend to like an actual book in front of me to make a PC, and all I have is my SR4 core book for BBB's. Thanks for the info, now to make sure I made a street legal version of my character.

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 13 2011, 10:04 PM

It's in the German version of Runner's Companion.

Posted by: Paul Sep 13 2011, 10:32 PM

Hmm. I'll have to see if that's a recognized Sb at our table. Thanks folks. Appreciate it.

Posted by: Udoshi Sep 13 2011, 10:40 PM

also the guy who helped write the book posted/leaked the http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31736&st=0&p=948067&#entry948067on the forums.
Basically:
You pay for your race, but its not doubled. No more free trolls.
You use Anniversary Edition karma costs, not 4th edition costs - but I think the only thing that was changed was Attribute costs.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 14 2011, 03:14 AM

Bonding weapon foci is also a bit cheaper.

Karmagen, even with the errata, tends to make slightly more powerful specialists, and much more viable generalists. In karmagen, a skill of 6 costs the same as two skills of 4, and raising a single Attribute to 5 costs the same as raising one to 3, and one to 4. So if you stay mostly on the low end of Attributes and skills, your character will be able to get a lot more stuff in karmagen.

Posted by: Irion Sep 14 2011, 05:28 AM

Depends...
Gear, positive qualities, komplex forms are all more expensive than in BP.
(And now you do not save tons of Points in the attribute section, if you use a metahuman even the attributes may bite you.)

Of course things like free spirits are much better in karmagen.

Posted by: Medicineman Sep 14 2011, 02:02 PM

another very important point :
You also use the 4A Karma Gain Table !!
its not important for Char creation but very important for the development

with a small but important Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Udoshi Sep 14 2011, 10:48 PM

I would agree here. Our game just moved to a new season, fresh characters in the same verse, moved to anniversary edition rules(newest and best, even if they aren't)...

..and our GM still hands out old rewards. 6 karma for several weeks(real time) sessions. Its even been brought to his attention.

Feels bad, man.

And our ENTIRE team is full of technos and adepts.

Nobody is going to be able to initiate/submerge forever.

I suspect it will get fixed when the entire team starts wanting to raise their magic, and going 'oh god i need 45 karma to do this? What the hell, gm'

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2011, 12:17 AM

Yuck, a whole team of magicrun? Maybe he's doing it on purpose.

Posted by: Udoshi Sep 15 2011, 12:40 AM

Its not THAT bad. I don't think anyone's tried to -break- magicrun so far. Except the doctor, but that's for Medicine, not something ridiculous like Summoning, Binding, or other big power-plays.

Its.... just going to be some combination of amusing/funny/sad/frustrating later.

We have a techno-rigger, who likes swords and drones
A techno hacker/infiltrator, that nobody trusts because he follows alias, the lord of spoofing and matrix misdirection, and they know about it.
A Mysadept pornomancer/rocker(okay, more pop star, but its an la game) who isn't great with the casting at all
A mysadept doctor, who is a brilliant implant surgeon forced into the shadows for other things, who's kept around because he can do beta.(he has the skills to do delta, but that got shot down fast)
and a pixie. Who is also a hacker, and rents space in his troll buddies(npc) cyberlimb storage compartment some of the time. (its like a mobile home!)

Together, they commit crime!