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Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 9 2011, 06:58 AM

Is it possible to have a useful and reasonably combat capable character in SR4A with no magic (inc resonance) and no augmentations? I get the feeling it probably is - using very high edge, maybe drugs to boost combat, and spend all your cash and the best gear/equipment...? What do folks think? If anyone has played such a character I'd love to hear how it went.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Oct 9 2011, 07:06 AM

A lot of stuff useful in combat can be worn as gear rather than installed internally, so mostly yes.

The killer is going to be IP - an expensive drug habit may be in order...

Posted by: Tanegar Oct 9 2011, 07:36 AM

For some reason, this archetype appeals to me immensely, although I don't think I've ever sat down and made a serious attempt at building him. You need to define "reasonably combat-capable," though. With drugs and the right gear, you could have a decent second-line shooter. Melee effectiveness, outside of an ambush with a stun baton, is probably out of reach, and any decently augmented samurai will put the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal down like Old Yeller. You'll want to use the points saved to round out with one or two secondary skillsets: B&E, stealth, face, rigger, hacker, etc.

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 9 2011, 08:04 AM

Yeah, I guess by "reasonably capable" in combat I mean able to deal with average threats - gangers, security guards, or actually I suppose pretty much anything except the "big bad guys" that tend to show up at the end of a module... At which point it's over to the combat experts to get the team through. But I'd like the character to be able to be fairly "bad ass" for most run of the mill combat scenarios.

Posted by: Tanegar Oct 9 2011, 08:36 AM

I think you can still get pretty good dice pools, they'll just be harder to improve. Automatics 6 (Machine Pistols) + Agility 6 + Smartlink + Tacsoft 4 = 20 dice as an unaugmented human. Getting your AGI that high will cost you, though.

Posted by: Faraday Oct 9 2011, 08:53 AM

Yeah, usually starting with agi 5 is best. Taking sensitive system is a very good way to get more points for character stuff. You can also buy more contacts, be the team's fixer and face. Being totally mundane also means you can walk through any scanner without any hitches unless you forget to leave your guns at home. You can also utilize the services of a normal hospital without worrying whether that nurse will report that you have unregistered restricted genetic/biological modification.

Posted by: Ryu Oct 9 2011, 09:08 AM

You should be able to build a GuardXL with 400 BP. Make that an Ork, or maybe a Fomori for anti-magic goodness. Is SURGE acceptable?

Building a normal char without augmentation won´t yield you any BP/karma if you try to have reasonable stats anyway. So suck it up and don´t try that. Spend your points on friends and gear to obtain the "useful" trait. Solid base for augmenting later. You could start from the Enforcer archtype without ware.

Long term, if the rest of your team makes full use of their potential, you will eventually be called a non-combatant if you don´t get ware.

Posted by: Hound Oct 9 2011, 09:44 AM

I don't know if this counts, but what about the possibility of making someone who primarily uses one or more critters for combat? I suppose if you have awakened or augmented animals, that kind of breaks your rules though.

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 9 2011, 01:07 PM

He could also be a non-rigging rigger.

There are lots of ways to do a mundane, most people just choose not to do so as it's an uphill struggle being the only guy without superpowers. I've tried it. And it did not go well, but he is my favourite character.

For reference, I went melee combat with a focus in damage avoidance, as well as outdoors skills. Since most people tend to not take the outdoors group, it made me fairly useful when it did come up. I also spent some points in demolitions (grenade traps)...

Posted by: suoq Oct 9 2011, 01:51 PM

Quick stab for a starting point:
http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/mundane.htm

Notes:
1) No disadvantages, so if we need to boost a skill up or acquire something, there's points technically available.
2) No skills > 4 yet, again, room to grow.
3) Is the plan to make the character a Cram/Jazz addict? I hate to say this, but you basically have a choice between magic, augmentation, drugs, or nothing. I'm not sure that it was your intent to have a walking pharmacy and I haven't done that with this starting point, but you need to decide if that's the direction you want to go in.
4) I gave him Astral Sight and Assensing 1, Astral Combat 1. I'm not sure that was within your vision.

Posted by: ChatNoir Oct 9 2011, 02:30 PM

Creating a character good enough shouldn't be a problem. But I have doubts about his evolution. Most character evolve with karma and money (witch are what character generaly have at the end of a party). With such a character, the money will have a lower influence.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 9 2011, 02:44 PM

TBH it seems to me that you may as well set those points on fire as take Astral Sight and associated skills.

Yeah, it's suboptimal to go without any implants at all, but at least as a rigger you can have things to spend nuyen on and generally it's better to be rich than to be good in Shadowrun. I'm afraid as a physical combatant or a character who otherwise relies on their own attributes, however, you're stealing money, and I don't mean from the corps. It can work, but only because the game is a cooperative one at heart. So if you really must go the mundo route and don't want to be a tech boy I'd recommend an emphasis on social skills, edge and contacts. Having Erased and Trust Fund helps too; you can more or less serve as the group's secondary fixer and having rainy day money can be pretty nice if you're not afraid to bribe people.

Posted by: Makki Oct 9 2011, 02:50 PM

drones or sensor pack carrying squirrels for your personal Tacnet.
Milspecarmor with Upgrades for compensating cyber.
Edge for awesomeness.
Drugs and Edge for extra IP.

Posted by: suoq Oct 9 2011, 02:58 PM

While I don't disagree, not taking magic/augmentation is basically setting points on fire anyway. One can spend 25 points taking agility 5 to agility 6 or restricted gear and 32,000 (12 points, .8 essence, 3000 left over) to take agility 5 to agility 9. I was hoping via my notes to get some more guidelines as to the intent from the OP since it feels (to me anyway) that a Shadowrun character without ware or magic is like a businessman without a smartphone. Why are they without ware of magic? Are they from some rural area, allergic to implants and not blessed by mana, a metahuman from Boys Town who intended on getting into pro sports and still hopes to so they're staying away from drugs and ware?

Posted by: Neraph Oct 9 2011, 05:37 PM

Trode Net + Commlink + Drone = Capable. Toss in Remote Control for the drone and a good Command program and you're there, although you'd need to figure out how to squeeze out those IPs. A hot-sim'd comm with a Simsense Booster (or Accelerator... whichever is the comm mod) gets you to 4 IP with no augmentations.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 9 2011, 07:18 PM

I understand--I virtually always hit the 50 gear point cap-- but that doesn't mean you should throw good bp after bad. Basically, the more sub-optimal the character concept, the more conservative I am about choosing only strong picks within the parameters of that concept. That you're already kind of weak is just all the more reason to top off one of your bread and butter skills and buy a decent contact rather than chase another theme. Other good alternatives would be asking your GM if they're comfortable with you getting creative and sinking the points into broad skills like Hardware and Chemistry.

Posted by: Ryu Oct 9 2011, 07:23 PM

Much of the answer boils down to the definition of "combat capable". If fight by proxy is acceptable, by all means play a rigger. We tend to judge that trait by personal capability; mages and riggers are usually non-combatants for us - without any disrespect, quite the opposite in fact. The willingness to play cooperative is welcomed.

Posted by: KCKitsune Oct 9 2011, 07:28 PM

Why play as a non-augmented normal?

I mean why not one piece of 'Ware: Synaptic Booster 2. I mean just having that piece of gear turns you from "So So" to something nice. Yes, it's expensive, but honestly why not?

I went the other way: I have a combat mage who has two points of 'Ware. Yea... his magic kinda sucks now, but I have enough advantages to survive to get a higher magic.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 9 2011, 07:46 PM

There's nothing wrong at all with wanting to play an unaugmented mundane character. The challenge of making one that can hold his own is rewarding in and of itself.

Other people have hit the main points. The best way to do it and remain competitive is to go with either a concept that doesn't need much outside help, like a Face, or one that boosts your combat abilities from outside sources, like a Rigger or Hacker. Other concepts are certainly possible, but you'll have to accept that other characters will likely outperform you in nearly every way.

The problem is that gaining magical abilities or getting augmented isn't that much of a BP sinkhole during character creation. If you really specialize and go crazy with it, yeah, it can cost a lot of resources, but, say, a basic street mage can be done on the cheap. And what you can do with those points as a normal person isn't going to really shine. And anything you can do, an augmented/magical character can do with nearly the same level of ease, too. Including the use of tactical networks, drones, Empathy software, drugs, and so on and so forth.

But if you're okay with the possibility of being outperformed, can manage to find a niche that you really like, and have a GM who really likes the idea and will work with it, go for it! It can be a lot of fun.

I tried something similar once but the game only lasted two sessions, so I didn't get to see how it really played out. I went with a completely burnt-out warrior adept with a drug problem, and due to having Sensitive System due to his former magical abilities coupled with his personal philosophy, he was reluctant and unwilling to go under the knife. He was sort of like a RIFTS Juicer instead. Had a lot of auto-injectors in his clothing and armor for select combat and awakened drugs, and a biomonitor with a custom agent program to monitor his system and apply the drugs as needed or as commanded. I had fun when I did get to play him, but the drug addictions and other side effects never got a chance to come into play.

Posted by: Makki Oct 9 2011, 08:10 PM

easy answer: only 1% are awakened. that's why he is without magic.
for the no ware part I suggest getting the Sensitive System flaw and in addition my http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34642&st=100&p=1111833&#entry1111833

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 9 2011, 08:22 PM

Explaining "no magic" isn't the problem; you just weren't in the "lucky 1%". But why don't you have any 'ware? I mean, from a player perspective, playing a "pure" character is an interesting challenge, but what's the IC reason? Because passing up that much easy power needs an explanation.

I think you should try to turn the mundane-ness into a strength somehow; play up on how no amount of detector work is going to show you up to be a threat, because there's no cyberware weapons or magical potential to detect. You don't look like a criminal to most security people, because criminals tend to carry combat-enhancing 'ware.

The tricky part is bioware: there should probably have been bioware scanners, but they fell through the cracks between Arsenal and Augmentation development, so by chance it's very hard to detect bioware. Which means that nobody can see that you don't have it, which kind of spoils the above setup.

I think you should consider finding an unusual niche. The bland-looking face that can easily infiltrate high-level corporate offices because he really looks like a suit, with no piercings, tusks or implants. Maybe with martial arts, plastic-bullet & holdout guns or even a syringe with poison - get close to people because you don't look like the enemy they're guarding against.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 9 2011, 08:28 PM

Not everyone is keen on the idea of having their body slaughtered and replaced by machinery. Especially in the 2070s were you can duplicate many of the more useful things without implants, such as with trodes and contact lenses.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 9 2011, 08:38 PM

The topic of this thread mentioned "A realistic char", and for my nuyen, a shadowrunner with no augmentation and no magic who is trying to be effective in combat is not a realistic character. Shadowrun is a brutal, uncaring, and above all unfair setting, and the rules for the most part support this. Your opponents will include people with superhuman abilities, who have traded some of their humanity for power(or were lucky enough to just be born better than you), and your high essence score isn't going to save you when some troll gets 4 IP to beat down on you with a pair magic katana.

Edge is useful, but only temporary, and drugs can help, but addiction is nasty thing that will eventually kill your essence anyways.

Playing an unaugmented, unawakened character who is designed to engage in physical combat is just unrealistic in shadowrun.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 9 2011, 08:38 PM

With 400 build points, you can certainly build a character capable of dealing with comparatively weak enemies like gangers and security guards, but it will be more expensive.

Mundane, augmented characters will be weaker out of the gate, and slower to advance. They can still take on a variety of roles, from combat, to covert ops, to face, to hacking or rigging. But in every case, the character will not be as good as he could have been, with magic or augmentation.

It's certainly doable, but playing such a character will be a challenge from a power perspective. Shadowrun is a very tactical game, with a lot of situations where you can completely negate another character's overwhelming superiority with proper planning. But you will be more dependent on this, and there will be times when your inspiration runs dry.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 9 2011, 09:06 PM

The really impressive stuff though, you can't do external. The cerebral booster, synaptic booster, muscle toner - all are extremely efficient ways to become a lot better than the opposition. 20K turns you from average to genius; that's more cost-effective than any school.

SR is about people who basically do insane jobs. Huge risks for (hopefully huge) rewards. Breaking the law, breaking all manner of ethical boundaries. I really think that the people who avoid augmentation are a fringe minority among shadowrunners.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 9 2011, 09:17 PM

If I may quote from Augmentation:

There are other sections in Augmentation that indicate having at least some augmentation normal but not universal. That's my touchstone, then. Not having a mod in SR is similar to not having a computer at home today. (I started to say cell-phone, but those are even more ubiquitous.) If you don't have one it's usually because you can't afford one or have some sort of principle against having one.

Look, one of the major drivers is going to be 'normals' who need some basic things. Let me give two examples:
Diabetes: autoinjector (reusable) and biomonitor.
Near- or far-sighted: cybereyes.

This doesn't count the accountants who pick up encephelons and/or math SPUs, or attorneys and counselors who pick up tailored pheromones, or the entire generation of techies who picked up datajacks, or...

You can do without, but you're not being 'the majority' when you do so.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 9 2011, 09:20 PM

No one's saying that such a character is the norm.

But Shadowruns comprise all of the outliers of society. Why shouldn't that include those who, for whatever personal reason, despise the idea of sullying their bodies with metal or mutated organs? The shadows embrace the freaks of the world. And in the Sixth World, an unaugmented mundane character is very much a freak.

Posted by: Shortstraw Oct 9 2011, 09:59 PM

You could try playing a pariah.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 9 2011, 10:03 PM

"We're in the minority; Runners who are not jacked, rigged, or wakened. We live by our guts and our wits."
-Jazzman Harker, Shadowrunner


Note that this quote is from first edition.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 9 2011, 10:29 PM

Agreed. Beyond the fighting-by-proxy discussion, it must be said that Shadowrun isn't D&D so an awful lot of your planning on a run may very well be dedicated to setting things up so that nothing "level appropriate" for a Street Samurai gets a clear shot at the team to begin with. As such there is admittedly some value in being able to hit 8+ dice on full defense while running to cover or being able to reliably punk a rent-a-cop, ferret drone, street thug or other mundane threat with your pedestrian 10-dice-with-a-SMG Automatics pool. But frankly, getting much better than that starts getting real expensive real fast without 'ware, drones or magic at your beck and call, and a fair number of people will be able to cheaply match you thanks to judicious use of inexpensive 'ware. So I would say that the unaugmented can defend themselves effectively in a good number of situations if they keep their head on straight and work as a team. But if you ever want to elevate violence beyond being a last resort? Then you should look into getting wired up-- shooting your way out of the building or raiding the warehouse is a helluva lot easier when you've got 3 passes and can switch to your internal airtank when the tear gas starts flowing.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 10 2011, 05:13 AM

In earlier editions of SR, this might have been easy & possible. Dirk Montgomery was a PI. Not a razorboy/samurai, but he had a colt manhunter & knew how to shoot it.

Earlier edition/mechanics also had it where your initiative determined your IP's. If you had a high enough of an Initiative score, you minused 10 from it, & the remainder was your new initiative for the next IP. If my Initiative was a 23... I go on 23 (first IP), 13 (second IP), 3 (third IP)... i think this was how SR1 handled initiative.

This is no longer the case in SR4A, so while you can still go first (via high Initiative score or Adrenaline Surge quality), you'd only get that 1 IP. As with a thread I started about IP's & roles... seems like combat characters need many 3 IP's at least.

Posted by: Makki Oct 10 2011, 05:23 AM

maybe even start with Addiction flaw at severe or burnout level?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 10 2011, 08:20 AM

Yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but that the default shadowrunner embraces 'ware, you need an IC reason not to want ware. You might have objections about cutting up yourself, but realize that makes you abnormal. Having some 'ware isn't "something extra", it's the baseline.

Posted by: Irion Oct 10 2011, 09:06 AM

Can you have a starting character performing like that?
Yes, sure. And with some drugs, you might not be dead that fast.
But over time it will get worse and worse.
It is one thing to have missed out on around 200k worth of ware. It is another thing to have missed out on 500k worth of ware.

Or easier: Not having a muscle toner 2 is not that bad, but not having a muscle toner 4 kind of is.

Posted by: Blade Oct 10 2011, 09:35 AM

A few ways I can see to make an unaugmented character be efficient enough:
- Drugs (more IP, better attributes)
- Edge (more IP, act first, high dice pool)
- Gear such as a power-armor ("external cyber")
- Rigging, or more generally the use of drones, AR and software.
- Animals (biodrones or paracritters)
- Some qualities, even more if the character is SURGED.
- Style: you don't have to be the part if you can look the part and know how to exploit that.

If we consider the base archetypes:

Street-samurai : Power-armor to soak damage and get physical bonuses (and look menacing enough that many people will prefer to avoid conflict with you), drones for additional firepower, edge to act first when you need it, and drugs or Edge when you really need a second IP.

Rigger: A good commlink and drones. Your dice pool won't be as high as those of an adept or an implanted rigger (though you can get nanites shot to help you) but you'll have more/better drones at chargen.

Face: Good charisma and social skills + the right style to get a lot of bonuses. Plus you can go wherever you want without drawing unwanted attention (no unusually high concentration of pheromones, no illegal ware, not awakened=no risk of mind control or kinesics).

Mage: Stunball=neurostun grenade, illusion=holographic projector (+thermographic smoke), invisbility=chameleon suit... Or paracritters: just get a trained merlin hawk (or even better: a whole flock of merlin hawks) and have it use mindlink to talk to him and ask for an air spirit.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 10 2011, 09:40 AM

It depends on the parameters of the game

- the more mirrorshades and the less mohawk the better, even though that kind of defeats the point
- high edge refresh helps. Once per session means that an 8 edge Mr. Lucky can just buy a few IPs. The trouble with this is that the Mr.Lucky with ware is still better
- it depends on matchup of the group. If you have to play with a 25 dice 4IP gunbunny then you're not going to shine

Obviously you can deviate from the "pure normal" concept with Surge, which can make you a bit more awesome using a different pool of points.

I would say there are a few concepts this has a chance of working with:

A sniper/assassin, maybe doubling as a face, if you are satisfied with not having too many dice. No defence means you still deal sufficient damage
The support gunner, but you'll need to make extensive use of suppressive fire and full wide bursts.
The rigger as was said before
The man with a contact for everything: Basically you can have shoddy stats but decent socials, and then just bring your troll mercs to a fight. Contacts is basically an ulimited BP pool, right?

The problem remains that any and all concepts will still be stronger with ware, as long as you don't get to change the point distribution. Essentially this means that there is a reason that every other character gets to pick his resources from several pots (attribute, skill, ware, magic, gear), while you get to pick from fewer pots. Usually each pot will have some things that are efficient, and others that aren't, and you probably won't get by with just getting the efficient things, while your point allocation can't overcome this weakness.

None of this means you can't have fun.

Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 10 2011, 10:58 AM

As an unaugmented mundane, you will suck - in the sense that you could always be turned into a character who does everything you can, better, and also does more stuff. What you are basically asking is "how sucky can I be without being so sucky I am dead weight," and that depends on how poorly made the other characters are. You can easily make a 400bp adept who is worse at fighting than a well-made 400bp unaugmented mundane, so if your buddy makes Adept McSucky, then being Mundane McSucky isn't a problem. If the other players think the sample characters are too powergamed, you'll be fine. If they make a modest effort to make good characters, you won't be.

Posted by: suoq Oct 10 2011, 05:31 PM

Because they are a liability to their teammates.

The closest RL example, I can think of a character like this is Evan Wright ("The Killer Elite", "Generation Kill"). In 2003 he was embedded with the 1st Reconnaissance Battalion of the United States Marine Corps during the early stages of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. He contributions to the team are minimal. There are some things he can do for the people he's embedded with, such as when they send him shopping for diapers, but for the most part he is a non-contributor. He slowly earns their respect ("Even Rolling Stone will pick up a gun.”), but part of that is simply the fact that he endured 17 firefights, including one during which 26 bullets slammed into his Humvee door.

That example makes it, for me, a twofold problem.
1) Why Shadowrunning, knowing that without magic or ware that the chances of survival are minimal?
2) Why is the character accepted by the other runners knowing that his contribution to the team are also minimal?

The first people have explained. 99% without magic, some with sensitive system, some with personal aversions, and worse comes to worse, desperation.
The second is much harder for me to understand. Why is his future use to the team worth more than his immediate share right now?

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 10 2011, 05:49 PM

I don't think runners expect their faces to be heavily modded; while players are aware of the "necessity" of pheremones, I doubt it's all that common. Likewise, if you know a guy who can hack "well enough" in AR with trodes, why would you bust his balls? He gets the job done.

It's not the optimal build, but it doesn't have to be. It just has to get the job done. Obviously you wouldn't want him on the front lines during a fire fight, but there are roles that an unaugmented person could fill on a team.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 10 2011, 06:12 PM

Really?

There's plenty of concepts where an unaugmented, mundane character can do well. Faces, detectives, snipers, riggers, and hackers are all prime examples, many of which have been brought up here. Take that sniper for instance. Long Arms (Sniper Rifles) 8 + Agility 6 + Smartlink 2 + Tactical Network 4 grants 20 dice right off the back. With a Barrett or a gauss rifle (if he prefers Heavy Weapons), he can take out most opponents with a single shot. He also has access to nearly every sensor in the game, can have drone spotters helping him out, and with a high Infiltration skill and some ruthenium-coated and thermally dampened guile suit, he can be all but invisible while doing so. Cyberware and magic isn't going to improve that very much.

Less than absolutely optimal? Sure, no question. A liability? Only if they're really poorly made and try to do something that they can't do nearly as well, like a straight up combatant.

Posted by: suoq Oct 10 2011, 06:29 PM

Agility 6 unaugmented to agility 9 augmented will buy back 13 build points and give him 3 more dice (allowing an improvement even if you drop to what I consider is a much more reasonable Tacnet 2) and he won't be trying to aim a Sniper rifle while coked up on Jazz and/or Cram. (I do not even want to think about roleplaying that. Ignoring the fluff there almost seems mandatory.)

The problem I see with the proposals here is that they seem to be either (and sometimes both)
a: suboptimal for their roles by a significant degree, either by sacrificing general ability or having weaker specific ability.
b: ignoring fluff or ignoring role playing disadvantages in an effort to force this requirement in. Sure, one can toss the fluff on Jazz and Cram, but does the OP want to do that or does he really want to play a combat capable character with 1 IP or should he ignore potential fluff issues with being combat capable with trodes.

If I understood what the goal of the OP was better, I'd feel more comfortable with this, but right now it feels like "sure we can do this if we ignore X and we accept everyone else is built badly". Is that the goal?

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 10 2011, 06:34 PM

As a GM, I find it much more enjoyable to work with PCs that are sub-optimal and interesting than hyper-optimized and dull.

And nearly all optimized characters are dull. Same numbers at all times, just random faceless dudes in armor jackets. An unaugmented face is not significantly underpowered. He's missing some pheremone dice that 90% of his opponents won't reasonably have anyway. If he's really hard up, he can get one of those stupid social toys.

You can do almost everything you need to do as a hacker with AR, so being restricted to Trodes isn't that big of a deal. If he has to duck down when the shooting starts, well....a technomancer would have the same problem. Hell, a starting unaugmented hacker would probably have more flexibility than a starting TM, given how expensive CFs are at chargen.

Posted by: suoq Oct 10 2011, 06:39 PM

I agree fully, which is why I've repeated asked what the OP's reasoning is here because what I'm seeing are optimized sub-optimal characters. The OP has given us no personalty, no character history, no raison d'etre. He's given us a technical challenge and I can't see how that technical challenge, in and of itself, creates a personalized character that is more than a faceless bag of numbers.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 10 2011, 06:44 PM

Well, Marid Audran at the start of When Gravity Fails would be a good template. He's terrified of what being augmented will do to his brain, and hopelessly addicted to drugs to give him an edge over his competition. Role-wise he's basically an investigator/face.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 10 2011, 06:50 PM

Honestly, augmented or awakened characters are less likely to be dull - they get the cheap boosts, so they have more points to spread out a bit. An unaugmented mundane will have so many stats and skills to soft-max that he will usually be more hyper-focused.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 10 2011, 06:51 PM

You might have missed the "with one shot" bit, implying that he had no augmentation whatsoever. Because he doesn't need it. Snipers are one of those few roles (like the others mentioned) where personal initiative passes aren't a necessity to get the job done.

And no, he wouldn't get three more dice, because the dice pool is maxed out at 20. Also, why are you personally dropping his TacNet to 2 to prove your point? The point is he's using other methods and sources to excel at his job. You might as well be saying something like "well, his Agility should only be 3 since that's more reasonable for a normal human. But my super augmented character has Agility 9, ergo your normal guy is stupid."

The character also has more build points and cash to invest in these things. While your augmented guy is blowing 200,000 nuyen on implants, he's blowing 200,000 nuyen on all these other toys. And in the end, he still does his job well. Could augmentation give him other benefits? Aside from extra passes, which he doesn't really "need," not really. The sniper is getting everything he needs from skill and equipment alone.

The same would be true of the other mentioned concepts; faces, detectives, hackers, riggers, etc. The latter two even include extremely high initiative passes.


Why would it be required to ignore the consequences for using drugs? Who's advocated that whatsoever? It's an option, and it works, but it has both long and short term consequences. But if, for whatever reason, a character has an aversion to implants but is okay with popping some Jazz, what's wrong with that? It's why it's in the game to begin with. And if you start tacking on extra disadvantages, well, that's just bad GMing in my opinion.


No.

The goal is to do something different. Like a Troll Face or a Dwarf Kickboxer. Just because something isn't min/maxed to the extreme, that doesn't make it bad, let alone detrimental to the game. Elitism and snobbery is what's detrimental to the game. Thinking outside the box should be encouraged and celebrated, not ridiculed or shamed like this.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 10 2011, 06:56 PM

You'd think so, but in practice the "best" augs and spells make everyone look about the same. They certainly carry the same general gear load. Trying to be effective without that stuff should, in theory, force you into some unconventional builds.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 10 2011, 06:57 PM

Isn't Hood (Troll Archer) from 1 of the novels totally un-augmented?

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 10 2011, 07:04 PM

Hood was also fabulously wealthy and secretly the CEO of a corporation, wasn't he? His main contribution to that group was being the only one with a working brain, as I recall. I remember that being one of the weaker novels from that batch....the one with the burned-out mage was the best, no doubt. The three-parter with Kellan Colt was...a little simplistic, but a good intro to the setting for new players.

EDIT: The book I was thinking of was Drops of Corruption, by Jason Hardy. Not sure if he's ever on these forums, but nice book, Jason!

Posted by: Paul Oct 10 2011, 07:14 PM

Unaugmented characters have popped up from time to time in my game, and almost inevitably they do great. Proper prior planning means that anyone can make a serious splash if they do things right. Skills and solid attributes, and making sure that people with initiative pass boosters can't get with in arms reach are solid tactics. Watch some Burn Notice for some inspiration!

Posted by: Glyph Oct 10 2011, 07:17 PM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23890&hl=mundane is a thread with some examples of mundane builds. Overall, you can make playable mundane characters, it's simply that adding augmentation or magic would make the character better. Which is fine, since the themes of the game are selling bits and pieces of your humanity for that all-important edge over the opposition, and magic making you a special snowflake that all of the mundanes hate/fear/idolize. I've used the example before, but - Deckard in Blade Runner, constantly using his resourcefulness, ruthlessness, and sometimes pure luck, against the replicants who are all stronger, tougher, and faster than him.

Posted by: suoq Oct 10 2011, 07:17 PM

In my experience, there's more than one target.
House rule I don't know the OP is using.
Because in my experience, Tacnet 2 is easy to get. Tacnet 4 is much more difficult depending on the tables rules for sensors and participants. I don't know that the OP's table will support a Tacnet 4.

As for the ending statements, I'll pass because I don't see how replying to them can possibly be productive.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 10 2011, 09:55 PM

That is highly subjective and has never been my experience given that typically 2/3rds of a character's points are going to go to some combination of Skills, Attributes and Metatype cost whereas without qualities 'ware is capped at taking up a highly varied 1/8th of your bp. Yes, there's benchmark and iconic augmentations like Wired 2 that will pop up on sheets time and time again, particularly on heavily optimized sheets. You can admittedly often spot what a character sheet is about by skimming their augs. But they're still less deterministic than skills, which cost more die for die and don't include oddball stuff like gastric stimulators, false front, bioware echolocation, mnemonic enhancers and smart articulation. Even admittedly straightforward and banal augmentations Synthacardium or Muscle Toners can help you avoid being a complete physical liability while still having points left over to pursue oddball skills like Chemistry, Artisan or Forgery. I hate to be so blunt about it, but usually when someone brings an unaugmented sheet to my table it's usually just a standard generalist samurai load out except they've traded away all their bad ass for the Stealth or Influence group. It's unconventional, but only in the sense that they do less than the other guys.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 10 2011, 09:58 PM

Or 40 BP worth of other gear.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 10 2011, 10:02 PM

Drugs vs. Implants: I'm having a hard time believing arguments along the line of "cybernetics eat your soul, but drug addiction is just fine". It sounds inconsistent. Either your body is a temple or it's a brothel; make up your mind.



"Sub-optimal vs. hyper-optimized": that's a straw man argument. Having some implants that make you good at your job isn't munchkinry, it's playing a character clued in to the idea of the game. It's not about "vs. hyper-optimized", it's about getting the stuff that just makes sense for someone in a dangerous profession. You don't tell firemen that protective gear is "hyper-optimized".



Snipers: we've had a lot of threads about how problematic snipers are. (Not always necessary since a lot of missions take place indoors, any other real Sam can also snipe, you wouldn't want the GM to start using real snipers with tactics against the party...) They're not ideal characters.



AR and trodes: AR is pointless if you don't use IP boosters, because IC gets 3 IPs. And trodes + (hot) sim module allow VR without implants. Get your rules straight.

That said, riggers and hackers without implants can actually work. It's possible that a lot of the hacking difficulties are more balanced for unaugmented hackers, actually.



Faces without implants or magic are quite okay. You can't hide tailored pheromones from serious security procedures, which would mean you'd lose access to some important people, which is bad for a Face. So it's not a disaster you can't have TPs. You'll probably be a human (Edge, normal looking) or elf (Charisma), and you'll have the kind of social dice pools the game system was balanced for, rather than pornomancer stats.

---

Of course, for both hackers, riggers and faces, you still need a reason why you don't augment, because they can all profit from it. But they don't absolutely need it to have a chance at survival, it just makes them a lot better.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 10 2011, 10:03 PM

40 bp of other gear (like perhaps a few quirky vehicle and exotic chems) often hits me as the best case scenario, tbh, but then we're typically into tech boy territory again, and usually those guys are willing to blow the 2 bp on a Control Rig or Cerebral Boosters because seriously, why the hell not?

Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 10 2011, 10:03 PM

This part of your argument is completely terrible.

You had 6 agility. Drop 2 agility (35 bp). Pay a whopping 4 bp to afford Muscle Toner 2. Now you are back at 6 agility and you have 31 bp to spend on other stuff.

Your sole argument is "you can be good enough at a role where being mediocre cuts the mustard."

Posted by: Udoshi Oct 10 2011, 10:07 PM

Drugs can be an incredibly viable way of gaining passes and other bonuses.

Second-hand Chemical Glands are amazing essence/cost for 3-pass drugs, hook it to a cyber drug gland/autoinjector so you can control when it takes effect. The Natural Immunity quality will let you safely take a dose of a certain drug every so often, so its possible to set your body in such a zone to get optimal High Time and No Downside time in order to constantly get the bonus.
Not to mention drugs don't have no-stacking clauses(affects attributes mainly), and often help with non-fighty things, like Perception(betel) or social situations/charisma.

For example, a basic grade internal release Dopadrine chemical gland is 32500 and 0.3 essence. Second hand its 15750(3bp) and .36 essence.
A basic grade k-10 chemical gland comes out to 121000 (and 5bp for restricted gear, because its 16F). Second hand makes it 60500 and .36 essence.
In total, 76250 nuyen and .72 essence. This comes out to slightly over 21BP.

+3 body, +3 agility, +6 strength, +1 willpower, +3 IP, High Pain Tolerance 3, -1 physical actions, Cancels Berserk. The k-10 permanent berserk test never happens, because only berserk characters make that test, AND it never wears off because its a chemical gland(so no worry ing about 18stun either)
That's the kind of power you can get by going the path of the juicer. All for less points than hardcapping one attribute.

Posted by: Irion Oct 10 2011, 10:34 PM

It is possible to start like that and not be a dead weight.

You will have less dices, but probably more skills. Instead of muscle toner, Wired reflexes, dermal plating etc. you just have Biotechnology 4 or something like that.
Yes, you will have probably 5 dice less in a firefight.

It only gets ugly if the rest is starting to buy additional ware, while you don't
Agility 5 is not that bad compared to agility 7. But compared to agility 9 or even 10 it tends to be "bad".

@Udoshi
At some point you start to beg the GM to mercykill you. (Rulewise this means enforcing addiction tests...)

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 10 2011, 11:02 PM

Not really, you just clearly have an inability to see the bigger picture.


Blah blah blah. The point, which clearly went over your head, is that Mr. Augment is blowing his cash on augments. Cash is a limited resource during character creation. While Mr. Augment is spending ~200,000 nuyen on implants, Mr. Normal is spending it on the really nice gear, of which Mr. Augment can only afford a tiny fraction thereof. Or boosting other aspects of his character. Whatever he wants, because he has that freedom by not needing to invest in augmentation.


No, my argument is "making such a character is possible."

No one is saying such a character will wtfpwn an augmented or magical character. Absolutely no one. We're saying that it's possible to make a perfectly acceptable and capable character who can hold his own, particularly in certain fields. And yes, OH NO!!!, his dice pool may be 3-5 points smaller in certain situations. Stop the presses! The sky is falling! What a horrible thing! He's down one, maybe two, hits on average. The horror. How is that any different than, say, a Troll Face vs. a Dryad Face who have similar differences? Why is it only a terrible injustice when it's a normal guy?

Posted by: Glyph Oct 10 2011, 11:45 PM

Mundane builds can certainly be viable. But having less points spent on 'ware or Magic doesn't always translate into more versatility, because that 'ware or Magic can give you cheap skill and Attribute increases, and other dice pool boosts, to the point that you can often have higher dice pools and be more versatile than the uncybered mundane.

Other than the dubious benefit of being able to get past nearly any scanner (which bioware can usually do, too), there really isn't anything mundanes do better than magical or augmented characters. They are like elven pit fighters, troll hackers, and suchlike - not optimal, but still doable. The biggest problem I see is that it is often the newer players who will gravitate to such builds. They don't realize that they are picking something that will put them at a disadvantage, and be more difficult to effectively play.

Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 11 2011, 12:10 AM

If you really are hitting the cash cap, you could spend an extra 10 points on Born Rich and still come out with an extra 21 bp, leaving you with your choice of more versatility or being better at your specialized task.

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 11 2011, 12:25 AM

That may be so, but if my playing is any indication, they are also the most fun characters to play.

Posted by: suoq Oct 11 2011, 12:55 AM

This is going to an area where I always have difficulty. Most of my characters' "personality" is in no way reflected by their points. Maybe it's supposed to be, but often the disadvantages I play the most aren't point based disadvantages, they're simply the character's personality.

I don't see why a character has to be suboptimal to have a personality. In all honesty, I see no connection between a character's effectiveness and his personality whatsoever. The only connection I'm aware of with effectiveness is how strong the GM makes the competition.

Now if the team wants to play suboptimal characters, I'm fine with that. But to me it doesn't mean they have any more or any less personality. It's simply that they're facing different challenges than more optimal characters.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 11 2011, 01:01 AM

And so can the normal human. He'll always have more cash at his disposal if he chooses. Always. That's probably the strongest aspect about the concept.

And for Pete's sake, Suoq, how are you getting "you have to make a sucky character to give him personality" from anything anyone is saying?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 11 2011, 01:15 AM

I dunno about "hyperoptimized characters are all the same and boring".

I've pretty much made my entire RPG play history nothing but hyperoptimized characters that most folks have never seen before.

I'd like to think they're interesting.

Then again, I'm told that I minmax... differently.




-k

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 11 2011, 01:54 AM

Agreed. I'm the kind of guy who makes suboptmal choices for flavour, then optimizes to a point. As a GM, I have a Troll Face lined up as a johnson, and he is one of the most optimized characters I've created, able to blend into many business-like situations, whether they be a casual retreat, a sport hunt, or a big-name party.

Posted by: Udoshi Oct 11 2011, 02:36 AM

Reformed Powergamers optimize for flavor, but eat Crunch for breakfast so they don't lose their touch.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 11 2011, 03:57 AM

Another good example is the bodyguard type character. In another novel, written by Mel Odom, using Argent... a contact/friend he used was a female bodyguard character. She had no 'ware as she excelled in public engagement/special attire work. Her clients didn't want cybered up razor boys or girls as protection as it looked gaudy at black tie affairs and other events. That character was all natural.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Oct 11 2011, 05:21 AM

Though to play devils advocate, you can slide in a heck of a lot of ware that is totally invisible so provides the discrete non-obvious razorgirl effect.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 11 2011, 05:35 AM

Yeah, I ran a former corp bodyguard and spider before as well who was built to be discrete but even he didn't go completely with without 'ware; it just all happened to be perfectly legal sensory and interface 'ware cyberware (Control rig, Cybereyes, Cyberears, Attention coprocessor, etc.) as well as some light bioware like muscle toners and a sleep regulator. He wasn't anything to really write home about in a stand up fight but between that stuff and some microdrones odds are he'd at least see you coming.

Posted by: Cain Oct 11 2011, 06:10 AM

First of all, y'all are making a silly assumption. Namely, that a hyeprspecialist has to sacrifice anything, especially things that a mundane no-ware character can get just as easily. That's just not the case: given a 400 BP character, both can spend only 200 points on attributes, period. No matter how many extra points to spend the mundane character has, he actually cannot have higher attributes.

Now, for Edge. Edge is indeed quite powerful, but the high Edge is most useful in the hands of those who don't need it. If you're relying on Edge for extra IP's, you'll burn through it too quickly, and won't have it when you really need it.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 11 2011, 06:12 AM

Some triple AAA rated areas & parties can/will have astral security & bioware can be seen with astral perception (assensing test with 4 hits).

Posted by: Faraday Oct 11 2011, 06:40 AM

4 hits on an assensing test is a lot. For a checkpoint or random search, typically an assensor would just buy hits. It'd take 16 dice just to pick up bioware that way.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 11 2011, 06:57 AM

Given the oft-repeated ubiquity of headware in corporate circles I doubt a bodyguard is going to have a hard time finding work just because they've got an attention coprocessor in their cortex and a sleep regulator snuggling up to their hypothalamus.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 11 2011, 07:43 AM

It does, those runners are dead, playing a living character is far more interesting than playing a dead one.

Honestly, either "sully" your body with augmented flesh and chrome now, or with lead later, your choice.

I'm also going to say something right now, playing a crappy or "sub-par" character does not make you're character more interesting, in fact it usually makes your character more annoying that anything else. Thats not to say characters shouldn't have weaknesses, but a character should be good at what they do otherwise they don't make any sense. A shadowrunner isn't just a random joe who decided to start going illegal things for money, those people are gangbangers and syndicate goons(or dead). A Shadowrunner is someone with exceptional ability who, for some reason, is unable, or unwilling to use said ability for legitimate pursuits.

Shadowrunners do the most dangerous job in the sixth world, and combat and bloodshed is part of it. If you're unaugmented and unawakened, unless you have some kind of special unique skill my team needs for this specific run, you are not coming with me in any dangerous part of the run. You can be the best face or hacker around, but if you can't hold you're own in combat, you don't belong on my running team in a dangerous situation, and taking drugs and relying on being lucky doesn't exactly make my character feel any better about having to take someone who quite literally might be dead weight along.

Your character should be good at what they do, there is nothing wrong with being effective. Unawakened shadowrunners who refuse to dehumanize themselves with 'ware are like little kids complaining that something isn't fair. The Sixth World is not fair, it's nice that your character has some moral code they are trying to stick by, but it's dangerously naive.

For a good look at running without 'ware when you really should be, watch Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. There is a character who is the sole unaugmented character in an elite squad of cyborgs, and while he has useful skills, he usually holds back or doesn't participate in the most dangerous missions at all. And when he does get into combat, he gets the crap beat out of him(this happens more than once). To start he gets artificial replacements for damaged organs, but eventually he bites the bullet and does get performance enhancing augmentations, despite his bias against them be he keeps getting shot up.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 11 2011, 08:06 AM

Who says he's complaining? Maybe he sees it as a competition, a personal quest to excel at what he does without being a lazy, pathetic fool who can only do what he does by having cheap bits of chrome shoved into their body.

Once again, there are several concepts that work just fine without the need for magic or augmentation. And all of them are ones that don't require high personal Initiative Passes, which is the only thing augmentation really has going for it in the 2070s. Hackers and Riggers are the very top of that list. Even as awful as the baseline archetypes are in SR4A, several of them are essentially unaugmented (ie, they have implants that are completely unnecessary) mundanes. The two big ones are the Face (who only has an implanted commlink and datajack) and the Weapon Specialist (who doesn't even have so much as a dose of Cram). Even worse, many of the other archetypes have stats that can easily be duplicated in an unaugmented character with ease, despite being loaded with chrome.

As badly designed as they are, the Weapon Specialist in particular proves that unaugmented mundane characters do exist and get work in the shadows. There is only one thing -- one thing -- that they can't really do, and that's gain additional Initiative Passes with ease or regularity. Most everything else can be duplicated through technology or hard work, or is so minor in its actual benefits (2-3 extra dice) as to be negligible or offset through other means. And with options like Cram and Jazz available, even that one, major disadvantage is somewhat alleviated, at least over the short term.

I really have no idea why some of you have such a massive stick crammed up your netherholes about this. God forbid someone creates a completely viable and useful character who doesn't have any augmentations or magic. What's even more bizarre are the people talking about how impossible it is to do here, having apparently turned 180 in regards to their comments about Initiative boosters not being a necessity in another thread. XD

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 11 2011, 08:47 AM

As badly as I would want an unaugmented character to be able to play in the same league, I have to say there is one significant hitch on the way: Point-buy limits. If the chrome guy and the unaugmented guy get 200BP of attributes, the chrome guy will be better. Skills are pretty expensive for both.And the mundane guy merely has more money for gear - so he might have the biggest van and the most drones, but that's about it.

I think it's just a basic defect of the BP system.

I think in order to make unaugmented characters not suck, you have to homebrew. Create a quality that allows lifting the limits. Put it in with the awakened/techno group so it they are exclusive, and make a downside of completely rejecting anything but deltaware.

For example:
Natural Superhuman, 20BP
Whatever random mutation is responsible, sometimes you find people who are just naturally better. Smarter, stronger, faster - or even all of that in one package. These people don't need ware to compete. They are just that good, all on their own. Their strength comes with downsides, thougth - where others can augment themselves with cheap ware, their bodies reject this. They take 2P damage per hour for every point of essence loss they incur from any kind of augmention. The only implants they can endure are cloned replacements or deltaware.
Effect: The Natural Superhuman is not tied down by the limitations of the rest of metahumanity. She can spend as many BP as she wishes on attributes. She is not limited to one attribute at her natural maximum and reaching the natural maximum does not cost extra BP - she merely spends 10 points per point. However, the value of her lowest attribute cannot be less than half, rounded up, of her highest attribute, prior to racial modifiers.

Obviously this is quicky and dirty... and I haven't run the numbers on it.

Posted by: Ryu Oct 11 2011, 12:12 PM

Introducing a new quality that permits higher performance is IMO like SURGE - you are not doing it as straight, unspecial mundane. Kind of defeats the purpose here.

Regarding the archtypes: they can be outperformed by chars build with The Precious alone. Hardly a performance standard. For true combat specialists, not only the IP will be missing. I would like to see an unaugmented combatant that can compete with a proper samurai. Fight guards yes, fight gangers yes, but taking a samurai slot? I don´t see that. Show me?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 11 2011, 01:08 PM

Eh. If you want an in-game reason to not have 'ware, just take the Sensitive System quality.




-k

Posted by: Bigity Oct 11 2011, 01:21 PM

I can't say I've seen the SAC version, but I guess you missed the speech in the original movie where the major (whatever her name was) explains to the unaugmented guy why he's on the team - for perspective. And then a bunch of stuff about overspecialization is a way to 'wither and die'.

In short, they wanted him on the team, he wasn't considered a liability. But obviously he has limitations, just like the rest of them did. His were just different.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 11 2011, 01:24 PM

I think the same explanation is somewhere in the series too. And it's an interesting explanation, too.

Posted by: Critias Oct 11 2011, 05:27 PM

It's never done Togusa any favors that in addition to being the "normal" of the team, he's also the kid. He's a cop and a family man, not a supercommando combat veteran who's been in the game for decades.

He's not always left behind because of his lack of augmentations, but because straight-up combat just wasn't his thing. It's not what he got hired for, it's not where his experience lays. He's the cop, on a team composed primarily of soldiers.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 11 2011, 09:06 PM

The movie isn't in cannon, either with the manga(where Togusa is augmented from the starts), or the anime series(Where he is used because of his skills as a police officer, but skill gets his ass handed to him when he evitably gets into a real fight, and gets augmented by the Solid State Society Movie).



The game has a naturally superhuman quality, it's called adept. There is also SURGE and various metavarients and sapient critters that are superhuman. The idea of a (meta)human who is just better than normal humans, able to be on par with cyborgs and awakened, without using 'ware or being awakened themselves is just silly and goes against the point of a dystopian setting. If trying hard and being good where enough to make it in the shadows, they wouldn't be as dangerous(and profitable) as they are.

I understand that some characters types don't need augmentation(though referencing the pre-gen characters kinda ruins anyone's argument, the pre-gen characters suck and oftentimes break the rules expressed in the previous chapter). But with the exception of stay at home hackers and riggers, those people are not really shadowrunners. The very word "Shadowrunner" implies a certain amount of steath and B&E work, and there are a lot of things you just need to be there in person to do. Without augmentations you are at a significant disadvantage in a real fight, as your only way of getting more IP's is edge(which is temporary and could be used for other purposes), and drugs(which are more damaging than 'ware). A simple goon with wired reflexes 1 has twice the actions you would have, which means twice the damage output. Surprise may be the most important factor in SR combat, but when suprise doesn't win a fight immediately, superior IP usually cleans up.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 12 2011, 02:39 AM

An unaugmented mundane can take a street samurai down by ambush - there are a kazillion one-shot kill attacks in the game. Even in a non-ambush situation, there are a lot of effective tactics, ranging from subdual combat, to monowhips, to stick-n-shock ammo, etc.

Taking the street samurai role is another thing altogether. The archetypal street samurai is not only great in combat, but is typically picking up the slack for the noncombattants of the team. He needs a good mix of dodging, damage soaking, armor, powerful weapons, and multiple initiative passes to take out large numbers of mooks while also drawing a large part of their fire.

An unaugmented character would be very suboptimal for that role, to the point that you would have to min-max the hell out of him in a lot of other ways, to partially compensate for that. Say, an ork with soft-maxed Body, Agility, and Reaction, with a ranged skill of 6 with a specialization (and maybe using a grenade launcher or recoil-compensated full-auto weapon, to take more than one enemy down with his one attack), using a smartlink and possibly a tacnet, with drones backing him up with both sensors and weaponry.

Still, it might not be that fun to play even if you make it work. I like playing against type as much as anyone, but I would probably be happier using an uncybered mundane for the roles he is less handicapped in, rather than trying to mash him into a sammie role.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 12 2011, 02:45 AM

I think, in short, an un-augmented character IS possible as a viable concept, but it will be difficult to keep up with the abilities of the rest of the team.

The character will almost certainly have to be min-maxed to a huge degree as far as the "unaugmented" restriction allows. It should probably be only attempted by someone who is well versed in the rules set.



-k

Posted by: Midas Oct 12 2011, 03:46 AM

I too think an unaugmented mundane character is feasible, but agree they would be better as hackers, riggers or faces. As noted, high edge (or a Mr. Lucky) would be beneficial. For a combat type, not so easy but not impossible.

Surprised at the number of people saying "If you don't have Agility 9 and a ranged combat skill at 6, my character wouldn't play with you.", but then again, this is DS ...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 03:55 AM

Indeed.... an Unaugmented character, while a few dice behind the augmented characters to be sure, would be, and have been, welcomed at our table as long as they could hold their own weight.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 12 2011, 04:46 AM

Maybe if the campaign was a street level game with it difficult to get access to any good cyber/bioware tech, a totally unaugmented character could do well in combat.

Posted by: Cain Oct 12 2011, 09:05 AM

"Holding their own weight" is the tricky part. As overpowered as Edge is, you can't rely on it for everything. There's no concept that an unaugmented character can't do better than an augmented character, so even if you're dual-covering roles, the augmented character will simply have better screen time.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 12 2011, 10:54 AM

Hehe, yes, Adepts are supposed to be like that, but then they are magical.

I can't give you a good example of either a character or a historical person who excels at everything, but with the way the BP system works, and the limits it imposes, it's quite impossible to build one. Even a hyper-specialised mundane will have problems.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 12 2011, 01:09 PM

Yeah, that really does seem to be the main problem with the naysayers.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 12 2011, 01:23 PM

Actually, they've got a point.

IF everyone's running roughly similar capabilities, then everyone plays. The under-numbered mundane repeats the SR3 Decker problem. Challenges for the group force the mundane to wait in the car or back home. Challenges for the mundane are either insignificant to the group or in an area where they can't play.

A group that plays together may intentionally shift so the mundane can be a part - say, don't build a face with cyber or magic so the mundane can take that role. But it's an intentional compromise on a per group basis.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 02:13 PM

This is very true. But in my experience, those types of characters ARE viable. It really depends upon your table, and what the table DP's are a s a baseline. If the baseline is mid to high teens (for primary pools), then your unaugmented character will struggle; if, on the other hand, the table baseline is 10-12 DP, the Unaugmented character can reliably compete, and often with more skills than the augmented character possesses. It is a play style that can be fun, from time to time. Me personally, I like just a little augmentation (of one type or another), more often than not.

Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 02:17 PM

I think you're overstating their case.

It's not just the 3 points of agility, it's the 13 other build points the mundane also has to do without and either the loss of IPs, or the loss of Edge converting to IPs, or the drug question . There's a bunch of pointless sacrifices here that the OP never gave us a reason for.

The character needs to bring SOMETHING to the table and unfortunately, we're on a quest to find out what that something is with no feedback from the OP. Some suggestions I like such as "100% pass cyberware & magic inspection at security checkpoints", I haven't seen such a build fleshed out yet, but I'd like to see abilities like "Juryrigger" in it because in that sort of situation, you don't get to bring an army of drones or incredibly cool gear. The issue with that build is how well does such a character play WITH a team of cybered/magic characters. Being able to go where they can't means splitting the team.

There's always old standbys such as Mr. Lucky or a face hacker (though the OP's request for combat capable may or may not throw a wrench in there depending on what the OP actually meant by combat capable) but I'm lost on how his lack of 'ware/magic has any real meaning for such a character. One could make the same character without the limitation and I don't think it would affect enjoyment one bit.

I always wonder if there's some box to be ticked off "Achievement: Played Shadowrun character without magic or ware".

Posted by: Neraph Oct 12 2011, 02:19 PM

Isn't this really a thread about whether or not the Weapon Specialist from the core book is viable?

Posted by: DamienKnight Oct 12 2011, 02:29 PM

She is not. Question answered!

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 12 2011, 02:46 PM

Only if you assume that everyone else at the table is a min/maxing powergamer. Implants are supposed to be an easy way to get good stats, yes, but the game wasn't designed around min/maxers, nor should players be bullied and ridiculed into not creating the type of character they want to have fun with just because of a bunch of min/maxers on a message forum. Especially when such a concept is viable, albeit difficult, and doubly so when the 'fluff' supports it just fine. Again, one of the base archetypes is an unaugmented mundane character. It doesn't matter that all of the archetypes are poorly designed. That's not the point.

And badgering the original poster for wanting to make such a character is really all this thread is now.

Posted by: DamienKnight Oct 12 2011, 02:48 PM

Ehhhh... so Cyberware only gives a significant advantage if you are a minmaxer? LoLz

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 02:58 PM

Cyberware always provides an advantage. It provides a SIGNIFICANT advantage to a min-maxer... Heh...

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 12 2011, 03:47 PM

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Oh wait, no it isn't.

Min/maxers abuse the hell out of the rules. The sheer thought of not starting with an Agility of 9 on such a character boggles their mind. Just look at the handful of people bitching about it in this thread. Worse yet are the ones bitching about the number of build points it takes to get it, and how an unaugmented character can't "make up for it" with the same number of points and, somehow, that proves that anyone without a maxed out augmented attribute rating is trash. Or whatever point they're trying to make by saying things like that. I still can't figure it out.

For whatever bizarre reason, they just cannot comprehend the idea that no one is saying that an unaugmented character will meet or beat what an augmented character can do. Instead, they're blathering on about how if they're not min/maxed to the extreme levels that an augmented character can be min/maxed, they're "worthless" and "already dead." Even though that's complete and utter bullshit, especially when an unaugmented character can be only a couple of dice behind them, and how they can very nearly match what a reasonably designed character can do.

And yes, the concept for such a character includes the fact that the character is relatively min/maxed while augmented characters may not be. But that's entirely in character for that character concept, because they're trying to prove -- either to themselves or others -- that they can be competitive through hard work, training, equipment, tactics, and sheer smarts. They're effectively the "Batman" of the shadows. It doesn't mean they have the same exact stats, the same exact capabilities, or could necessarily even win if they got into a on-on-one pit fight with their counterparts. But no one has said they should, except the people yelling at the original poster for the sheer audacity of wanting to create an interesting character archetype -- an archetype that is included in the gameworld and the rules regardless of how badly she's designed.

Posted by: Cain Oct 12 2011, 04:08 PM

Not even close.

Every build that can be done by an unagumented mundane, can be done better via augmentation.

Even if you're going for a low-attribute generalist: because of the attribute cap, both the augmented and unaugmented character will have the same base attribute pools. They can buy a whole crapton of skills. The augmented character, however, can afford an IP booster as well as skillwires, increasing the amount of skills he potentially has access to.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 04:43 PM

Which is what I said, Cain, if not in the same verbiage. Cyber always provides an Edge.

Posted by: Cain Oct 12 2011, 05:36 PM

Again, please stop bolding and italicising my name. It feels outright accusatory.

Second, you said it provides a significant edge to min/maxers. As I demonstrated, that's not the case. This build isn't "significantly" better, it's just better.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 05:41 PM

Min-Maxers get significantly more bang for their buck if they Min-Max their Cyber. Most do, you know...

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 12 2011, 06:00 PM

Man, is she ever. The sad thing about the weapon specialist is that if they had concentrated on the armorer/tech wiz aspect rather than giving her a grab bag of ineffective combat skills they could have had a playable concept. Basically, as an unaugmented character the more you can do to avoid opposed rolls while doing your job, the better. I am biased against unaugmented combat specialists because they are literally involved in an arm's race that has potentially deadly consequences for losing. By contrast being the team skill monkey and buying up the oddball skills nobody else wants to take and having a big grab bag of contacts and weird gear to parcel out isn't nearly as demanding a role. There isn't much glamour in it, but the thresholds you need to hit are generally nice and predictable and when you screw up it usually just means the job takes a bit longer rather than get you shot in the face.

Posted by: Mardrax Oct 12 2011, 06:07 PM

Sad thing is, that role sounds more like a Contact than a player.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 12 2011, 06:10 PM

Contacts are sometimes too busy to return calls though. That's a problem when you need a bomb disarmed, preferably yesterday.

Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 06:10 PM

Good luck with that one. He does the same to me, including adding capital letters where they don't belong, despite my requesting otherwise. I think he does it just to piss people off.

Posted by: Mardrax Oct 12 2011, 06:16 PM

I'm sure it's just a habit folks. No need to be spiteful about it.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 12 2011, 06:17 PM

No, it's very much intentional.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 12 2011, 07:09 PM

So basically, to have an unaugmented character that's not too weak to cause problems, only the unaugmented PC can be min/maxed?
(Problems with creating challenges not too dangerous to the unaugmented character, but challenging to the augmented characters.)

Taking augmentations isn't munchkinry nor min/maxing, not by default. The question is: can an unaugmented character keep up with reasonable augmented and magical builds? Maybe, but it's very hard, and it's hardest in combat niches.

Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 12 2011, 07:11 PM

Of course, this too is better done by an augmented character, since there's so many ways to boost attributes and skill categories with ware. Cerebral Boosters, PuSHeD, neocortical nanites, limbic nanites, Encephalons, whatever that + to intuition linked skills geneware is ...

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 12 2011, 07:15 PM

Nope. But someone creating an unaugmented character does need to work harder to make them competitive. Cyberware is cheap and easy. Coming up with something to challenge it isn't.


No one to my knowledge was arguing that at all. In fact, that is exactly what most people in the thread have been saying.

It's the posters who have been saying asinine things like unaugmented characters are "worthless" and "as good as dead" (I don't remember the exact phrases they were using) that I've been replying to for the most part. They're also the same ones who keep pointing to overly min/maxed characters as an excuse for it, when most real characters are anything but. At least in my personal experience.

What I really don't get are the people who keep saying "augmentation or magic can do ____ better." No one has ever said anything to oppose that statement.

Posted by: Paul Oct 12 2011, 07:21 PM

Threads like these make me so glad I don't have a bunch of rules lawyers sitting at my table.

Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 07:31 PM

Once you get them drunk, the rules lawyers are harmless...

About 40 will do. Higher if you're in a hurry.

Posted by: Paul Oct 12 2011, 07:34 PM

Oh, we have plans for them. Walks away muttering about drop kicking their ass out of the car after a 40 mile drive up north...

Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 07:48 PM

They might starve to death arguing about the best way to get home.

(Some say that's a bug, some say that's a feature...)

Posted by: vladski Oct 12 2011, 08:03 PM

Seems to me that a mundane, non-cybered character is very plausible; the only thing holding him up is Initiative. I dislike 4ed initiative anyway and slightly modified it for my own games a long time ago. But even working within RAW, there are drugs for boosting initiative.

This thread has gotten me thinking about designing such a character: The Chemist aka. "The Candyman." He makes designer drugs, enjoys them himself. He is mundane and has a sensitive system. Saddened by being unable to take advantage of the best of recreational electronics, he long ago turned to chemicals. His knowledge of chemistry led him to not only drugs, but explosives. He would have taken high levels of stealth (in order to steal his material components and research). He has charisma born of a need to broker his drug deals.

Basically, this person can be a face, your demo guy, your medic and could function with a team in its stealthier endeavors. If a GM provides any lattitude, he would allow Mr. Candyman to have a goal of creating tailored drugs to fit a player's needs (Ie. reducing the chances and/or effects of addiction of his own creations.) The character isn't going to be spending tons of money on cyber, so he can invest that money on his labs and research. I personally think this could be quite a fun character to play and would truly be someone different than jsut another mage, or sammy.

I also guess my philosophy about characters is different than some. You allow the player to create a character they are interested in playing and then you design the adventures around them, not over-doing the areas they are deficient in. Yes, sometimes you go there to make them feel the heat, to keep them on their toes and to make things interesting. But you never put them into situations that they are completely unequipped to handle. What is the point of that? Where is the fun? Not every mission requires a high level commando team. If you enjoy every mission being a dragon hunt, great! Design those characters and hopefully you have a GM that caters to their builds. If you enjoy exploring other aspects of the SR universe, then create those characters and hopefully your GM will provide you an arena to explore those aspects.

What is a realistic/ viable character is going to vary dramatically from table to table.

Vlad

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 08:19 PM

Awesoem Concept, Vladski... And well stated...

Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 08:34 PM

Vlad: I don't think that's unusual. The issue I see is in making the mundane combat capable with regards to the rest of the team (which was the impression I got from the OP). Balancing the chatacter with opponents seems easy. If everyone at tbhe table had the same limitations it would be easy to do as a table. But without knowing the other characters I can't say the charcter can be on equal footing with them when they have access to more efficient things to spend BP on.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 12 2011, 08:58 PM

Well, to go back to the original post:

(emphasis mine)

So sure, a Face, Rigger or Hacker is doable, we've established that. But combat is precisely the hardest.
Drugs can somewhat solve your IP problems (under the common Dumpshock estimation of 2 IP being right for a character not particularly aimed at combat, who doesn't want to be bad at it). But to be better that a gangster on drugs (aren't they all?), you'd either need to do extreme point squeezing or use a lot of Edge.
So it comes down to the Edge refresh rate: if you refresh Edge entirely each session of a multi-session mission, it can work out well. But that's often thought to be excessive refreshing, and I think most groups do one complete refresh per mission, with perhaps one point per session in between. Then even 8 Edge isn't all that much; you need to choose carefully what to spend it on.

So, can it work? Well, as a dedicated combat character, I think you'll be disappointed. There's a good chance the other PCs will be just as good at combat by spending a few points on augmentations, and the rest on some primary niche. And any other primary combat characters will be more powerful than you, because anything you do to be powerful, they can do more efficiently.

As a character who doesn't want to be useless in combat, but isn't built as primary combatant, it can work, but it's not easy. To feel like a useful part of the group, you're best of taking some other niche and taking basic combat competencies through drugs, edge and specializing in one type of gun.

The best niches, as has been pointed out, are those where you don't get a lot of opposed rolls, particularly not against augmented opponents. Medic, chemist, demolitions, Face, hacker, rigger can all work, because even when they do opposed rolls, the difference with a non-min/maxed character will be surmountable.
(Most of the time pornomancy is overkill; Cha 7 + Influence 4 + Specialization should be sufficient against a vast majority of NPCs who didn't specialize in social conflict. I think the hacking difficulties weren't based on stacking vast amounts of implants that were introduced later, so your unaugmented character would face tough but fair odds. Riggers are a bit tougher, but delegating to pilots and autosofts helps. Medics, chemists and demolition men don't face a lot of opposed rolls.)

But in the end, you will be less powerful. Augmentation is the most efficient route to power, so refusing it sets you back a lot.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 12 2011, 09:09 PM

Yes, there's always a bare minimum of augmentation that should be considered. We've gone over that roughly a billion times in this thread already. But the thing with techies is that there's not terribly many drawbacks for throwing merely adequate dice instead of incredible dice and so they're one of the few archetypes that can cover stuff for the team without dipping into their gear cap very much-- they could use a couple of shops and the general purpose stuff most runners need, but that's about it. It makes them pretty well suited to being the guy who takes one for the team and pays for the pimped out Eurocar or a Trustfund and Facility combo.

Posted by: Irion Oct 12 2011, 09:21 PM

Short:
A guy that starts with no ware and magic?
Possible and viable if you do not have a very combat focused group. (Since the best option is to become a jack-of-many-trades it is better to use Karma gen)

Staying like that for more than a couple of runs?
Possible too, but you will turn slowly into a sidekick. (The other runners will pick up secondary skills, too and due to their high attributes and boni they will outshine you pritty fast)

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 12 2011, 09:39 PM

Jack of all trades definitely isn't the best shot. Before Augmentation and Unwired hit the best path was definitely a hacker who dabbled in drone herding. There's now more reasons to get wired up than ever thanks to the introduction of stuff like Encephalons and Simsense Boosters but it's possible to get by without them, particularly if your GM is going BBB only. I'd go so far as to say that being unaugmented means that having a marked lack of breadth is your default state.

Posted by: vladski Oct 12 2011, 10:00 PM

I see that as sort of the fun part of the character. As time wears along, the character is going to feel more and more pull to get some form of cyber. Maybe at some point they would. That's character GROWTH! Or, maybe I jsut enjoyed books like 2XS and When Gravity Fails way too much.

Remember, tho' SR is a game that still needs different players to fill different niches. You wouldn't expect a Sammy to stand up to the Magic for very long alone. A mage isnt going to survive for very long against a squad of top notch mercs. Everyone has a job to do. I believe it's possible to build a viable character that is an asset to a team, can function stealthily, shoot reasonably straight, and bring fun to the player, especially if that is the character the player wants to play. If he is trying to make himself a Street Sam without cyber, no, he isn't going to have fun. But then, that is like lamenting that the Sammy can't summon spirits. It's not the job they were designed for.

Vlad

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 12 2011, 10:34 PM

Nanites, like drugs, are also a viable if expensive option. Which just makes rigging and hacking even more attractive. Potent infusions like Sideways (effectively giving you a Pain Editor and Combat Sense 2 on top of a flat +1 dice pool bonus on all combat tests) help out in the combat situation as well.

Posted by: Irion Oct 12 2011, 10:39 PM

@vladski
Everything you point out is true. I didn't mean to question any of that.

I try to rephrase, this may sound a bit technical now but I hope I manage to express it a bit better:
During Chargen every point of cyber meant less points for skills or attributes (unless you got yourself other stuff).
Now, money and cash flow parallel. So the char with no augmentations will get huge amounts of cash with no way to spend. (Unless he is buying drones or vehicles, which is not fitting for every character and also at some point limited)

If we take your character propostion, he might be (at the beginning) around as good in sneaking around as the sam. (Maybe his skill is 4 instead of the sam having 1-2, therefore the sam has two or even 4 points more agility. But one infilitration skill is linked to intuition so you are better there)
But at some point the sam will increase the skillgroup. This is 10-15 Karma for him, but for you to be equally good again, you need to spend 25 Karma. (Or increase agility, which would be 30 Karma)

Same thing with shooting. In the beginning the sam had maybe 2 to 6 dice more. In the end (even if you get to skill 6 (+your gun)) he will be at least 6 dices ahead. (genetic optimisation, reflex recorder etc...)

Same with INI passes. In the beginning it was probably 3 to 2(drugs) or even 2 to 2. Later on it most likely will be 4 to 2.

Posted by: Udoshi Oct 12 2011, 11:15 PM

Cram+Jazz work out well enough to boost you to 3 passes, and give you some reaction boost. Remember, drugs don't have no-stacking clauses.
Also, they're cheap. You don't WANT to have to use combat stims, but they are there if you need them. I

However, if you use all the points you're saving on ware, and not maging a magic attribute, supplementing your skills with an edge of 6, 7, or 8 does wonders. Sure, you'll be less powerful in the long run, but you have a spike of competence whenever you want it, and it will probably put you -ahead- of your more competent friends. Being an edgemonkey is pretty awesome, but less about being awesome all the time, and more about awesome when you really need it. The downside is, you can be overwhelmed pretty easily if you spend it all the time.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 12 2011, 11:27 PM

I would really check in with the GM first about no no-stacking clauses, it's rather fishy.



I don't think you'll end up all that far ahead. Remember that you're only "saving" 10-30BP, they can have Edge just like you, just not hardmaxed, but they also don't need to use it as often.

Posted by: Paul Oct 13 2011, 12:12 AM

You're welcome at my table any time!

Posted by: CanRay Oct 13 2011, 12:27 AM

Never let the stats get in the way of a good story. Let the character grow properly, and you'll have something you'll remember far longer than a "Ball Of Light With Stats".

Of course, I usually start character creation by kicking my characters in the teeth, down ten flights of stairs, onto jagged glass, in their underwear, and have them thinking, So far this seems to be a good day... Then I start figuring out stats.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 13 2011, 01:30 AM

My problem is most people I know don't necessarily want to play high level commando teams but do want to play something better than a bunch of rookie essence virgins-- hell, if they didn't, we'd probably be playing another system entirely. Ultimately, my barometer of what is a "good" character or not is if it does what the player believes it can do without requiring me to sandbag more than usual or otherwise tailor everything to keep the character involved with the rest of the table. Thus my least favorite character concepts as a GM are the mundos and martial artists--and most especially mundane martial artists-- since that's where the gap between the game mechanics and what starry eyed newbs hope the mechanics are is often the widest. They look at their sheet and see Bruce Lee. I look at the sheet and see a guy who'd just get maimed by the first Steel Lynx I introduce. It also doesn't help that the ware vs. no ware issue is largely a rather internal struggle that most of the table will already have made their peace with one way or the other. As a character hook I honestly kinda wish it would just go away since I've ended up dealing with characters that are unintentionally disruptive for little pay off given that there isn't really anywhere you can take that thread that is dynamic and will interest the group as a whole. Your options are basically sticking "ware in them against the character's will", which is boring and kind of a dick move if done without player consent and dangling powerful 'ware in front of them until they cave and give a soliloquy before they become just like everyone else-- and I do mean just like everyone else, because unfortunately the couple of mundane characters I've had rather failed to develop anything else interesting about their character. At least the Street Samurai had a couple vendettas and a political affiliation.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 13 2011, 08:26 AM

Yeah, it's all very nice to say that a good GM scales challenges to the PCs, but what if the other players do want magic and augmentation? They probably will, and it would be wrong to try to stop them.

Going virgin isn't "another valid, equally good option". It's intentionally making a character that will be weaker. Don't delude yourself that the BP you save on augmentations will make up for it somehow, because augmentations are so much more cost effective than buying attributes and skills naturally, that they can come out better than you do just on the efficiency alone. (For example: drop 1 point of natural Agility for Muscle Toner 1, frees up 8BP for no change in stats.)

So you're going to end up relatively weaker than the other PCs. If that's something you have no problem with, okay then. Game on.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 13 2011, 08:49 AM

I think we can(should) agree that there isn't any mundane character concept that doesn't perform better without some augmentation. You can get the the same numbers for cheaper BP wise, and higher numbers than unaugmented characters can ever get, not to mention that without 'ware your money isn't working as hard to make your character better after creation.

I think we can also agree that several character concepts can work as augmented mundanes. They'll be directly worse than their augmented counterparts, but they can be successful.

One again the problem is combat. It is reasonable to assume that a player will want his character to be physically present in most runs, and it is also reasonable to assume that combat will break out. Combat makes heavy use of opposed rolls which unaugmented mundanes will also be worse at than the augmented or awakened, and failing even a couple checks in combat can kill your character.

Furthermore, it is also the case that extra IP are essential for any combat that doesn't get decided in initial surprise round. Not only can someone with 2+ IP literally put out twice+ the damage of someone with 1 IP, they get defensive options as well, allowing them to use actions like full defense or suppressive fire in their first IP, and use their additional IP to wipe out opponents with less IP than them. Edge is useful for IP(sometimes you need just 1 extra action to win a combat), but unless you refresh crazy often you do not get enough to use it all the time for IP, especially since you need it to augment rolls, sometimes you really need to convince this guard to let you through, or you have to dodge that assault cannon blast(and since the unaugmented character has lower dice pools, they need edge more for rolls). Drugs are an option, but they are semi-expensive(those per dose costs can add up), unreliable(it's much quicker and easier to turn on you're wire reflexes than to pull out a jet popper you hopefully have on hand, and inhale it while under gun-fire), and have really severe negative side effects.

Put simply, an unaugmented mundane can never be "good" in combat.

The fact is, for the kind of situations Shadowrunners find themselves in, being an unaugmented mundane puts you at serious risk whenever combat breaks out(and combat will break out). Unaugmented mundanes serve much better as contacts or sidekicks/henchmen, people who are useful, and might help out when needed, but don't actually physically participate in the main part of the actual run. Depending on your groups style, your unaugmented mundane may be more useful and less of a liability, but they will never be as useful as they could be, and will never stop being a liability entirely.

Posted by: Midas Oct 13 2011, 09:20 AM

All we are talking about is a few dice difference in the DP and probably 1IP, which while being sub-optimal is hardly nerfed or dead man walking territory.

Let's look at an unaugmented mundane sammie vs his augmented counterpart. Both have soft-maxed AGI and 1 ranged skill at 6 and Unarmed Cbt at 4. Augmented sammie has cybereye smartlink, unaugmented sammie has mirror shades smartlink. So far, so same.

Augmented sammie can take WR2 or SB2 for 3IP. Unaugmented sammie takes drugs when he needs the IP boost for 2IP. Net difference 1IP. On the flipside, augmented sammie has taken a hit on resources, and in the case of WR2 might have problems if he ever has to go through a MAD scanner in uptown situations.

Augmented sammie takes Muscle Toner 2 for the AGI boost. His DP is increased by 2 compared to unaugmented sammie. On average that's 0.67P difference in damage per shot. An edge for sure, but hardly OMG unaugmented sammie is soo nerfed he should be full of lead territory. Augmented sammie takes Restricted Gear and MT4, now we have a 4DP difference which translates to 1.33P difference, with the augmented sammie having taken 5pts of his 35pt +ve Quality cap as well as the cost of the cyber.

Final scores:
Augmented sammie (SB2, MT4, 28K cybereyes) has ranged DP of 17, unarmed DP 13 and 3IP.
Unaugmented sammie (mirrorshades smartlink) has ranged DP of 13, unarmed DP of 9 and (w/Jazz or Cram) 2IP.
Unaugmented sammie also has net 5BP of +ve Qualities and 220K worth of shiny toys (or 44BP) to do other neat stuff with.

Conclusion:
Unaugmented sammie sub-optimal? Yes. Unplayable? No, at least not as far as I can see.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 13 2011, 09:22 AM

Your argument seems to not be about augmentation, but rather about how extra IPs are essential for combat. There are many character builds without extra IPs. Also, depending on the game, extra IPs aren't always essential. Some games emphasize combat, some don't. In games that don't emphasize combat, your statements are not very applicable at all. I'll admit that many games are probably run like this, but not all games.


Cram is 10/per, not expensive whatsoever. The amount of times you will use the drug, vs. how many bullets are fired and their cost...drugs are crazy crazy cheap. Speed issues are countered with auto-injectors. Side effects aren't really that severe, and can add some good RP potential.


Wow. You're saying there's NO place in a SR team for a character that isn't "good" at combat, defined by you as having multiple IPs. You seem to have a pretty narrow view of how to play SR, or as it's called, "have fun".

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 13 2011, 09:34 AM

I think maybe the most productive thing to do is list stuff that an augmented character might not be able to afford (at chargen) because the costs are higher than usual, or he's already blown his X times restricted gear on other stuff. There doesn't have to be an underlying concept, that is added later by the selection of stuff you're getting.

I'm going to go ahead and suggest:

Milspech armour. It's vastly situational, but at least it's something to keep you alive.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 13 2011, 04:20 PM

Except you're leaving out the implications of Initiative, defense and soak pools, which is why people were talking about mundanes being OK snipers earlier but not good front liners. It's a simple matter of costs: the more things you need to be good at a role, the farther behind you fall-- the much maligned script kiddie hacker is a good fit for mundos precisely because you don't need to spend much of anything on attributes. By contrast the give and take of combat brings into play multiple attributes as well as things like gene tweaks, Reaction Enhancers, armor implants, the possibility of a Pain Editor, platelet factories/, Gymnastics aug stacks, Reflex Recorders and the option of taking a tweaked cyberarm w/ gyromount, armor & nanohive in lieu of Restricted Gear and Muscle Toner 4. You won't have every possible good mod on your sheet, obviously, but you can definitely bring enough advantages into play that you can curb stomp Captain Normal and the mook squad without too much trouble.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2011, 04:49 PM

Except that you are leaving out that a normal can have a 12 Initiative (Mine Does), Base Ranged Defense of 8, Attack Dice Pools of 12 (Firearms) before Tacnets, so give it a 14 w/Tacnet (And reduces Range bands by One Category), Melee Dice Poools of ~10, And ~15 Dice to soak (10-11 Armor and a Body of 4). Oh, and he always can go first in the first pass of combat. These are useable stats. The ONLY thing that is lacking is multiple IP's, and these are cheaply provided through Drugs (Drugs with minor side effects/drawbacks at that). So, WHY is this character useless?

Oh yeah,
~14 Skills at 10+ Dice
~17 Skills at 6-9 Dice
Currently and Edge of 2. And Human. The Build has a few points remaining to spend, so the Edge will likely go up at least one point, if not two.

All useful for a Mecenary Character in one capacity or another. Captain Normal he is really NOT.

An unaugmented character can be capable. He will likely be a SLIGHT bit behind the augmented characters, but then again, he may not as well. After all, the Original Mr. Lucky Build only had 5 skills (IIRC). I would say that this build is FAR and away better than the much touted original Mr. Lucky Build, as he does not have to rely upon Edge, at all, to function in the shadows.

EDIT: Not picking on Mr. Lucky at all, he was just the first thing that came to mind.
2nd Edit: I still prefer a little bit of augmentation for my chracters. The Above character is just a thought exercise, as I will likely never play him.
3rd Edit: If you cannot tell, I prefer my characters to have Functional Dice Pools in the 10-12 Range. That is why they are where they are. The Dice pools are without Gear Bonuses of any kind, except for the Smartguns, which will raise the pools by a point or two when implemented.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 13 2011, 04:58 PM

Because he sounds kinda shitty. I mean, you went right to the Initiative value--which, admittedly, is the easiest thing to be competitive, even if it is expensive-- and then started harping on other skills about as quickly as possible. Likely because beyond that there isn't much a mundane can do to layer on combat advantages aside from getting a dose of lotus flower, which is admittedly kinda fun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2011, 05:01 PM

But he isn't; He just does not have 20+ Dice in anything. But he has 30+ Skills all from 6-12 Dice (Before Gear, for the most part). He is very functional, in a lot of ways...

In Combat, the character throws 13-16 Dice for Firearms (Dependant upon level of Tacnet). He has Initiative 12 (Before any Drugs, which may also provide additional Passes). He Goes First in the First pass. He reduces Range penalties naturally (No need for gear) so he gains dice at the longer ranges with no expenditure of resources. He has versatility in the various Combat Arms packages, and is capable of firing ANY Weapon on the battlefield. He can pilot any Combat Vehicle you will ever see on a Battlefield or above it. Operationally, he is pretty damned exceptional, for a combat character. Any Special Forces/Special Operations Unit would gladly have him on their teams, because he can back up any of thhem, and still has skills that many of them may not. And he can even spend the evening with the Socialites and not embarras himself.

What more can you ask?

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 13 2011, 05:03 PM

Are we counting each combat skill as if it is a real skill for some reason? I'm assuming so, and if that is true, just picture me shrugging.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2011, 05:08 PM

Just showing that he is FAR from Useless or Imcompetant, and will likely give any "Shadowrunner" a run for his money. Yes, even the Specialists.

Posted by: Irion Oct 13 2011, 06:05 PM

The question if the spezialist (using Karma so you do not have to deal with different costs) is better than the generalist depends very much on your GM.

I remember some computergame which was based on "the black eye" a german pen and paper game.
The most feared situation in the whole game was traveling through a mountainpass during winter. Because it was the only way, a character could permanently die.
And everything depended on one roll on climbing.

So true, if your GM always goes for "you can only hurt yourself in your spotlight, but the spotlight burns hot", yes the specialist is much better of.
But if he is just letting you follow a loose storyline, this might not be the case that much.
Because now it can happen very fast that "do or die" depends on the streetsam making a influance test. Yeah, Charisma did nothing for your attack pool and picking up the influence group would have been a waste of points...

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 13 2011, 06:06 PM

My last samurai had 3 passes, 5 Edge, 14 initiative, and 21 dice & a gyromount with a Supermach, 11-19 to defend (depending on where you stand on Synthacardium and Reakt cheese) and a ballistic soak of 20 without milspec armor. He'd clean up in that fight.

Posted by: suoq Oct 13 2011, 06:09 PM

Every time we go through this I'm boggled at what everyone else at your table must be playing. I can't wrap my brain around the size of your dice pools (16- across the board, often in the 12 range), the length of time you've been playing that character (zarking forever), and how you're still going first with an initiative of 12. I swear you once said you had a street sam at your table and still a 12 init goes first? I don't get how. Do the other characters not have near the same karma?

I'm sure you consider your experience evidence but as far as I know you're the only one here who has experienced your personal experience and the only person here who understands it.


The generalist I post here as a bare bones, easy to play, basic character for newbies would clean up in that fight. And he's not meant to. He's meant to contribute, not kick butt.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2011, 06:43 PM

First: Interestingly Enough, I am rarely play the most powerful (DP Wise) character in the group.

To the meat:
This one is really very easy... The character I just talked about (up thread) is not quite done yet, he is a Thought Experiment. However, it is not all that hard to get to dice pools of 10-12 in a LOT of skills (Especially with Karma-based Character Generation using the Errata). Specialties play a large part here. Extra Gear does as well (That gear that actually gives boosts to DP's), Augmentation and Magic also helps. It is relatively easy to get 10 dice in play (as an aside, I tend to not try to approach the 16+ DP Range, especially at Chargen, as it is never really necessary), and since I prefer breadth and depth to the skills selected, I tend to obtain a very large number of them, and try to get them to Professional/Veteran Levels. My Cyberlogicain has 83 skills (320 Karma). The Mage I am playing has about 40-45 Skills or so (200 Karma), the Thought Experiement Above has 32ish Skills (0 Earned Karma), and is not yet complete.

As for going first, even with an itiitative of 12? There is a Quality called Adrenalin Surge that allows just that, unless someone else has said quality or spends Edge to go first (they resolve in Initiative order at that point, for those so afffected, and yet, still ahead of everyone else). So, it is trivially easy to go first. We do have a Street Sam at our table, his initiative usually resolves at around a 18-20 (Sometiimes a bit higher if his roll is exceptionally lucky). and yet, the character with the quality would still go first, and right out of Chargen.

As for the other characters, they are all on about the same footing at our table. There may be differences from time to time, and that is a result of a character death or other situation, but for the most part, the characters are within 10 karma of each other unless they have missed a large amount of sesions.



No, What I consider is that it is possible to create an unaugmented character that can compete at a table that does not have a full team of Super-Optimized Specialists that throw 20+ Dice. It is really not all that hard to understand. WIll he bi viable in a team where everyone else has 3-4 IP and 20+ Dice in their primaries? Probably not. But that is not the point. Not every table runs that way. And for those tables that are a little less powerful (Average Startign Character DP's of 10-14 in primaries), the character that I am experimenting with will work.

My "Experience" is understandably anecdotal, but I do not think that I am unique in this regard, even here on Dumpshock. Many people have commented in this very thread that an Unaugmented character is a viable option. And I stand by that statement.

Posted by: Ryu Oct 13 2011, 08:54 PM

Starting without ware on a char willing to get augmented can be great because it allows for rapid development within the game. Get 10k¥ and 4 karma, buy another skill and increase Agility by 1 while paying the rent for a month.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 14 2011, 01:34 AM

I think unaugmented mundanes can be viable, if not optimized. The biggest problem with the "every resource point takes away from skills and Attributes" argument is this: augmentation gives boosts to skills, Attributes, and dice pools in general. Spending resources on things other than cyberware might potentially be useful, but there are only a few things I can think of other than playing a slightly suboptimal rigger or hacker. There is heavy weapons and/or military armor, having a facility for a skill such as armorer or chemistry, or having a really pimped out team vehicle. But generally, 'ware is what gives the most bang for the buck.

Mundanes can be decent characters. How good they are can depend in large part on the rest of the table. That's what you need to do - metagame (in the proper context of such) and look at the specific group.

Maybe everyone else is playing hyper-specialized one-trick combat types (note that this is usually because they are inexperienced - experienced players can have super combat ability and be good in other areas). Your character may just hunker down and plink with his pistol from cover in a fight, but he's the negotiator, the medic, the data search guy, the getaway driver, the sneaky guy, and the guy who can get them past a locked door without shooting it open.

Maybe they are playing generalists with low dice pools, and your more specialized mundane can actually hang with this group, power level-wise.

Maybe they all have optimized characters, but are experienced players who can make 20+ dice pool characters who are well-rounded. An uncybered mundane might be overshadowed in such a campaign.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Oct 14 2011, 02:34 AM

Errr just thought I'd come in and stomp on this, infiltration is agility, so any passing cybered character coud do it better then a non cybered one easily and cheaply getting a 3-5 dice boost on the actual infiltration skill. You might have an edge on the actual disguising people portion of disguise, but that's questionable as a sam will also likely at least spare some points for intuition as it contributes to initiative.

Glyph has the right of it, pound for pound ware gives you a better dice pool advantage then what you loose on it in points, that's why you take it, that's why it works.

Posted by: Midas Oct 14 2011, 07:17 AM

Based on my above example, the augmented sammie has +2 Initiative and DP bonus of 2 on his defence test compared to his unaugmented counterpart. His soak pool will be the same unless he gets Bone Density Augmentation/Bone Lacing/Cyberparts at an additional drain to his rapidly dwindling resources and essence.

I agree with you that unaugmented mundanes are better as hackers/riggers where resources are needed for hacking gear and/or vehicles/drones. I also admit that I would find it hard to pass up on essence-friendly attribute boosting bioware for any character myself. However, the point I was trying to make, namely that while sub-optimal an unaugmented mundane sammie ain't streets behind his cybered counterpart, I believe stands.

Posted by: Juno Oct 14 2011, 12:11 PM

As a starry eyed newb, I'd agree with this sentence completely. I play a hacker, and have little-or-no experience with any other role - including no experience GMing. I'd started experimenting with making builds to try to learn a little more, and thought there must be something I was overlooking when I was trying my hand at an effective Bruce Lee.

Really, it just became like I was trying to build a mundane adept though, so I've shelved it in an unfinished state, an accepted I'd learned a couple things from it, but accepted the likeliness that "it'll never be a goer".

I suppose if an experienced player who is a hell of a strategist, with an approving GM and a cooperative team could make it work but... well, its an action build, and one that's not very versatile. I can't see anyone who'd enjoys action in the game enjoy playing such a narrow role, short of a purpose written, one off campaign (requiring a good sense of humour from all involved). Otherwise it feels like bringing a knife to a gun fight, except you arrive at the fight and realise you've forgotten the knife.

On the broader picture of playing a mundane, I think the idea of playing a mundane face or troded rigger is appealing in a few ways. And as for featuring mundanes as enemies the runners may encounter I think a monastery packed full of hostile mundane monks could make for a nice reversal of TVs idea that its always the sqeeky clean good guy martial artist is the hero and the drugged up cyber/magic/hacker gun nuts are the corporate backed villains.

I wonder how many mundane monks it would take to bring down one cybered up troll runner in with a smartlinked minigun? http://www.newturfers.com/mwf/attach/38/355838/BBCNEWSWorldLionMutilates42MidgetsinCambodianRing-Fight.htm

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 14 2011, 02:47 PM

That is disturbing, and funny...

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 14 2011, 07:01 PM

I get the feeling a few people still are not convinced that an augmented character is directly better than an unaugmented mundane, when there are, in fact, directly better. Augmented characters have access to all the same things unaugmented characters have, plus they get many things for cheaper BP wise, can use their BP to get higher numbers if they desire, or even use their BP to get things that are completely impossible for unaugmented characters to have. During play they improve with karma and nuyen, whereas unaugmented characters get limited benefit from large sums of nuyen.

In any case, virtually every argument that needs to be made has been made. An augmented character is better that an unaugmented character, especially in direct combat scenarios. It is a reasonable assumption that in Shadowrun the players will be participating on runs and that combat will break out on a fairly regular bases, it's kinda part of the setting, and the reason as much of the book is devoted to combat as there is. I understand some games are very combat light, or the GM never throws the real kind combat threats that exist in the 6th world in some games, and thats fine, but that is a non-standard example and irrelevant for a a forum thread which is more universal than your non-standard campaign.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 14 2011, 07:31 PM

Where on earth are you guys seeing that in this conversation? Seriously, where? It's been said, exhaustively and directly, on all sides of the discussion, that augmented characters are going to be more powerful. That's never once, not even a little, been up for debate.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 14 2011, 07:32 PM

Amazing, Isn't it?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Oct 14 2011, 08:12 PM

So then i guess the question is : No augmenation no magic - a realistic character? No

You want to be a street bum or low wage corp slave with no magic and sensative system/religious bias sure.

You want to be a shadowrunner that actually has a chance of being kept on by a team or taken serious by a fixer/J, you need an edge. One consensus leads to the other outside anything but story fiat.

Posted by: Critias Oct 14 2011, 08:51 PM

Having "an edge" can come in more ways than just augmentation, though. Just because a character isn't optimized doesn't mean that character is worthless. No one's disputing that augmentations make it much easier to be a worthwhile and effective shadowrunner...only that, depending upon the power level of the game, they might not be absolutely necessary. A character with less than DS-ideal die pools can certainly still contribute to a campaign, to the fun of everyone at the table, and to the effectiveness of a shadowrunner team.

The (true) statement "augmented characters are better" need not necessarily also mean "so unaugmented characters are absolutely worthless."

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Oct 14 2011, 09:04 PM

See what I get from that is the sense that If the game world is drug down to captain worthless level and stays their permanently he or she can be the special little snowflake, which goes back to story fiat. It's one thing to say characters/players are not going to minmax, it's another thing to pass up good solid options for most of the shadowrunning populations and still expect to play at the big kids table without the GM rigging the table to support the sparkleness.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 14 2011, 09:46 PM

I'm beginning to think that unaugmented mundane characters somehow raped Lurker's childhood.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 14 2011, 09:54 PM

To be fair, the worst people I know are all unaugmented. Oh, wait.

Posted by: Critias Oct 14 2011, 09:54 PM

The game world doesn't need to be dragged down anywhere. There are canon adventures, canon NPCs, canon situations that an unaugmented character is perfectly capable of handling. It's all about the level of the game table in general, and the level that the game table wants.

You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder against anyone who's not diving headlong into optimization and augmentation ("captain worthless," "special little snowflake," "sparkleness"), which is a little counterproductive to the current conversation. I'm sorry if a disruptive player you've had experience with was also unaugmented, or if some unaugmented character you're familiar with had a disruptive streak, or whatever...but it's not like the two necessarily go hand in hand.

Any character's die pools can be improved -- and as such, their effectiveness in-game -- with some form of magical or technological augmentation, yes. But lacking that augmentation does not mean any given character is objectively without worth. It's not a black and white, yes no, optimized or junk switch that just gets flipped, on or off. Every character is somewhere on a sliding scale of optimization. They might be more towards the "not optimized" side of that scale than you like, but that does not mean they're absolutely no good.

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 14 2011, 10:02 PM

Hey all just thought I'd chime back in and say thanks for the discussion on this topic. I had in the back of my mind that playing the no aug, no magic guy would be an interesting twist in a team, provided you could find a proper niche (just like any char) - most likely the face or rigger/hacker. The other important thing though that someone mentioned is that I can always give him aug's once the game starts if it turns out they're too tempting (and lets face it... they will be!). Which should be pretty cool RPing wise. Cheers.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 14 2011, 10:18 PM

Everything a mundane can do, magic augmentation users can do better. In fact, the name of the game is MagicAugmentationRun. (couldn't resist)

Anyway, is an unaugmented character playable?

YES, IF:

1) There's nobody in the party doing your special thing, who is using augmentation to be better at it.
AND
2) You don't mind being sub-par powered in combat.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 14 2011, 11:31 PM

Me too... Sheesh... *Shakes Head*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 14 2011, 11:35 PM

Define Subpar...
If you refer to JUST IP's, then I have to disagree with you.
I have seen unaugmented Characters with DP's of about 14 in Combat (As someone else demonstrated, they can get to 20 DP without any augmentation whatsoever), and Decent Reaction and Initiative. Where they tend to be lacking, combat wise, is in the IP Department, and that can ALWAYS be corrected with Drugs.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 15 2011, 05:20 AM

Subpar(krah-pee)
adj.

1) Unable to meet expected values, underperforming
2) A character who can only act once for every two to four times their opponents acts in a system where it usually takes 2 to 3 attacks to kill someone.
3) Someone who cannot hope to win opposed die rolls in a combat situation, which means they have no real ability to resist taking significant damage, and limited ability to deal damage.

And once again, drugs do not solve the IP issues, they have horrible side effects and will eventually kill your essence anyways, who in their right mind things injesting mind altering chemicals that screw with your body chemistry is better than an extra organ that increases your response time?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 05:29 AM

I dunno, TJ. That's kind of the thing: that character will get ganked more often. The OP specified it was a combat character, which is what really threw me. Without that stipulation, the answer to the OP is an obvious 'yes'. If he's a 'combat character', though, he's tangling with other combat characters… and he won't beat those odds forever, as everyone has explained in detail. So if that's what 'realistic' means, maybe not. Still 'viable', though, if you don't mind being a lot more careful (=not being a 'combat character'), and/or dying (all part of the job).

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 15 2011, 08:25 AM

hey on a related note - where are the drug costs - eg for cram and so forth? My SR4 book doesn't actually seem to list prices, availability, etc?

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 15 2011, 08:28 AM

They're all in arsenal, they range from 10 nuyen a dose to quite a bit. Cram, the cheapest one that grants IP, is basically cocaine, so addition tests should be called often(Body+Willpower(2) test), plus it lasts for hours when you'll be obviously high, and that 6S damage at the end can be very dangerous.

Jet is 75, lasts much less time(but long enough for a combat), and the drop isn't as nasty, and since it was designed as a combat drug for cops it won't need addition tests as often...but there is still the problem that it needs to be taken before combat to be effective.

Posted by: Irion Oct 15 2011, 10:11 AM

It still depends on the world you are playing in.

If you play in a world where Batman and the hulk are going to grab a beer after works but the tactics of security could have been developed by King Arthur, than yes a unaugmented (or even lightly augmented char) is unable to make a stand.

If in every classier restaurant are several layers of cyberware scanners, cameras, etc. than yes the unaugmented (or lightly augmented) char might even get along better than the 0.001 essence guy.
It is like driving around in a tank. You do not need to fear to be robbed or a car accident. Your main problem is, you are driving around in a tank.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 15 2011, 10:18 AM

However, the real comparison isn't virgin vs. cyberzombie, it's virgin vs. lightly augmented with choice bioware and some completely legit and socially accepted cyberware.

Posted by: Mardrax Oct 15 2011, 10:39 AM

That is, they won't stand up against the runner-level augmented and twinked opposition. They could however work plenty well against most of the stuff in SR4A. Just don't get shot is even more a creed than it normally is.

Posted by: Ryu Oct 15 2011, 10:40 AM

That sounds pretty good for an unaugmented build - is it hidden somewhere in this thread? I´d like to see it. Ini 12 is actually impressive.

Regarding the ONLY lacking thing being IPs I´ll just have to disagree. A proper samurai should buy WR2 instead of SB2, as some of the money should go to boosting Athletics and Perception to super-human levels. AGI 9 will help with infiltration, where you want a substantial dp advantage over guards with contact lenses and ear plugs.

A Melee pool of 10 is only worth it as backup if you have Strength 5(++). A soak pool of 15 is just enough against heavy pistols. Trauma Dampeners are great, and Body could easily be 7 on an Orc.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 15 2011, 03:36 PM

Horrible side effects? No. You say horrible side effects, but then almost immediately say the side effects aren't that bad. Like so:


So "Jet"(Jazz) is a very viable option with no real side effects, no addiction tests, and immediately administerably using an auto-injector with a biomonitor or pre-programmed trigger on your commlink. WR still have to be turned on before combat too, unless you walk around with WR on 24/7, which is just silly.


Mind-altering chemicals? Vs. the invasiveness that is WR / MBW? This is SR, dystopic future-punk, remember? People do all kinds of crazy things to their bodies, ingesting mind-altering chemicals seems pretty low on the list of abuses available.

And once again, noone is saying it is a better option, only that it's a viable one, that can make for an interesting(read: fun) character.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 03:44 PM

AFAIK, WR isn't 'turned on and off' in SR4 (i.e. 'anymore'), but you probably could if you wanted to.

Just because Jazz is less rough than Cram doesn't mean it's not rough. It *does* cause Disorientation (no fun), but the fluff used to say long-term use wrecked your mind. *shrug* It only gives you a small boost (same as Cram), unless you're allowing drug stacking rules. If so, they definitely ramp up the drawbacks (assuming the GM isn't crap).

It is an option, sure. A weaker, rougher option, just like being mundane/no-aug in combat is weaker, rougher.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 15 2011, 03:48 PM

As I said. It's possible to play a non-augment character. And play it well.

But you really have be up on your rules-fu to do so. It's not something I'd recommend to a Shadowrun novice.

I for one sometimes purposely play significantly sub-optimal characters for the challenge. Or purposely gimp my character's abilities. That in itself can be fun.

"20 opponents, huh? Is that all? I extend my arm out very deliberately so they can see what I'm doing, and swing it behind me so my fist is in the small of my back. I don't have a rope to tie it back there, sorry." - actual in-game combat from an old campaign. My character won, too.



-k

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 04:04 PM

Ha! Still, it's a *lot* easier to count coup if you're starting with 30 dice, and people are (perhaps unfairly) much more impressed by *that* than by the 'naturally' weak character's modest successes.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 15 2011, 04:17 PM

Actually, remembering a bit better now, the character saw the fresh set of opponents appear right after a fight, dropped his sword*, put his arm behind his back, raised his other hand to motion the opponents to approach, and said, "Come and have a go, if you think you're hard enough."

Yes, I did the accent.

It definitely helps to know the rules well if you're trying to be a badass using less resources.





-k

* - He didn't actually have sword proficiency, being a hand-to-hand fighter, but used one anyway in the first couple of rounds of many fights. The character was arrogant and completely full of himself. Much like me, I suppose.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 15 2011, 07:36 PM

From the description of Jazz:

It is poor roleplaying if you simply use jazz for a cheap initiative boost and give it little other thought. This is a substance that affects the mind as well as the body.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 15 2011, 07:40 PM

It's basically just manic depressiveness in a popper.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 07:56 PM

And it was worse in SR3, specifically for long-term users; though I'm not saying you should have to use old fluff.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 15 2011, 08:02 PM

I find it odd that people take pride in "not sullying their bodies with implants" and then turn around to take combat drugs that are obviously unhealthy. Or if they try to argue that nanites aren't implants.

Either you take the hippie high-road and don't put tech in your body, or you do it right and get the good stuff. This halfway drugs-but-not-tech thing is hypocrisy.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 15 2011, 08:05 PM

Who said that's the reason? It's a reason, and so what if they're hypocrites?


Or you do what you want to do, elitist asshats be damned.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 08:06 PM

Hypocrisy is also extremely common. (Meta)humans are not rational, consistent, etc.

Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Oct 15 2011, 08:18 PM

Question: does the spirit pact quality count as a magic character? 'Cause if your mundane guy has a spirit pal that is willing to lend him it's powers or heal two boxes of damage instantly in exchange for 1 karma that could be a cool edge to have that might make him more combat viable.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 15 2011, 08:19 PM

I was mentioning it because a lot of the time in this thread, the reply to "why won't you use augmentations" is some kind of purity schtick (there's no Sensitive System for bioware, after all). And then drugs are shown as a substitute.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 08:30 PM

Yes, but any kind of purity is equally 'likely'. That's why you've got vegetarians-who-eat-X, Y, and/or Z. (Mmm, sweet sweet Z.)

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 15 2011, 09:02 PM

Soylent Z is made of people. But not all vegetarians would object.

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 15 2011, 10:13 PM

Just on drugs - what happens if a char takes Jazz/jet and Cram at the same time? Does she get two IPs? ... with double the side effects?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 10:24 PM

Yes, more or less. There are (vague) rules in Arsenal. Some believe you can do the same with multiple doses of the same drug. As long as the GM penalizes appropriately, anything is probably fine.

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 15 2011, 10:54 PM

hmmm okay well I guess an unaugmented dude could use a combo jazz/cram if things really hit the fan in a fight.

On a side note - do drugs stack with cyber? I guess they do?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 15 2011, 10:57 PM

Some people think so. Generally, things do stack, but I (for example) have trouble with a mere drug improving upon crazy superconducting nerves. And game balance. It kind of depends on your table.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 15 2011, 11:15 PM

I would probably impose severe penalties for trying to highball two combat drugs. People die from things like mixing alcohol with drugs, or combining two prescription medicines because doctor A didn't know they also had a prescription from doctor B. Mixing jazz and cram would be likelier to send someone into a coma than to give them extra IP.

Posted by: 3278 Oct 15 2011, 11:16 PM

One of the most interesting, capable, longest-surviving characters I've ever played was the Street Kid contact. He never had any magic or augmentations. I'm not sure he ever successfully fired a gun. It was sweet.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 15 2011, 11:37 PM

I think combining drugs, or multiple doses, is quite cheesy.

I'm more positive about combining drugs and implants, but that's for a different reason: as a GM I want drugs to be tempting even for players who've already bought IP boosting 'ware. Because in dystopia, doing the "dirty" thing should be worth considering.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 16 2011, 12:59 AM

Well, there's this from SR4A:
"The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."

Or do you mean there's nothing saying you can't keep it on 24/7?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 16 2011, 01:10 AM

Nah, you're right. They used to have an actual trigger add-on in SR3, right? So I mis-remembered the change. Though it's true there are no penalties or anything, bleh.

I totally agree: the speedballing rules are far less dire than they should be, and mixing things is totally cheesy (given the lack of direness). I'd want using drugs atop your wires to cause bad things to happen, but be theoretically possible.

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 16 2011, 01:12 AM

Yeah I'd have a balance problem with drugs and too much cyber/magic (not exceeding 4 IPs total inc drugs). Double drug thing for an no aug/no magic seems ok to me however (with double penalty, just kinda makes them more competitive with the sammies etc). I guess like many other things in SR4A, comes back to table balance.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 16 2011, 01:14 AM

It's actually a 'synergistic' penalty for speedballing, at least in theory. Say, 4x the penalty. Something like that.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 16 2011, 01:39 AM

But then no one would abuse drugs like that, and you lose some of the Dystopia...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 16 2011, 01:41 AM

It depends on what '4x' means. IPs are a big deal. Still, I hardly think the right way to keep dystopia is to make it *nicer*. It's like preventing speeding by raising the speed limit.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 16 2011, 02:15 AM

I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today. I want vasopressin, washed caffeine, jumpstart, gingko biloba, guarana, and any intelligence enhancer introduced in the last five years.




-k

Posted by: vladski Oct 16 2011, 07:48 AM

You can't be mundane and take that Quality. As below (emphasis mine):

"The Awakened character has entered into a pact with a free spirit, which uses part of its spiritual essence to augment..." - Street Magic, Pg. 26

Vlad

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 16 2011, 08:09 AM

But we're not comparing unaugmented to near cyborgs, we're comparing unaugmented people to augmented people. Many useful augmentations, especially bio, either are difficult to detect, or not illegal. Also even illegal onces can be explained. You can explain that Move-By-Wire system as controlling your seizures.

Posted by: Irion Oct 16 2011, 08:45 AM

@TheOOB

And than you need the (electronic) papers to prove it.

And if we are comparing only lightly augmented people, those persons won't have 3 or 4 IPs right out of chargen.
Those person will most likely not have muscle toner 4.
A move-by-Wire 2 is allready 3 Essence. Add a bit other stuff and this is far from "lightly" augmented.


Bioware is quite not to detect, thats true. Cyberware becomes difficult if beta or higher.
(But the rules for scanners are not that great, I know.)
Alpha and standart is quite easy, becaue of the 6 to 7 dices for 1-2 hits...
But thats a major problem with shadowrun in general: There are some pools, which can't get higher and there are other which skyrocket. Thats quite a bad thing.
Having one net hit with a pool of max 9 dice is a completly different thing than having 1 net hit with a pool of max 50 dice..

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 16 2011, 09:38 AM

I never wanted drugs to be competitve with implants. Implants are expensive, you give up something to take them.

The reason I want drugs stackable with implants, is that even if a player takes the implants, he'd still know that if he took drugs, he'd get a bonus: there'd always be the siren song of crunchy power. It's all very easy to "say no to drugs" if they're not giving you any boni, but it becomes more of a choice what they do.

I'm fine with drugs+implants being nasty addictive or hangover-y, though

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 16 2011, 02:58 PM

Heh, perhaps.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 16 2011, 03:13 PM

Until 3rd ed came out I would say 'yes', now I'm not so sure. We used the priority system to create characters rather than purchase system, With that someone who make skills a priority had a powerful advantage in lots of skills-this was before the concept of a 'face' character had come through, ducking back in combat the proto-face character was good for social interation and b&E work.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 17 2011, 08:32 AM

I like drugs to stack with implants too, as long as you don't go over 4IP. I can be real harsh with the addition mechanics though.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 17 2011, 08:56 AM

Umm... not to be overly destructive again, but... what mechanics? It's a roll, and there are no rules for when you should have to roll. Mechanics are stuff that work, well, mechanically, as in, something triggers them, they do stuff, stuff happens. As it is, there is no defined trigger. That's like having the doomsday machine but no on/off switch. The only drug that actually has a mechanic is Betel.

It's the same with most of the drugs' secondary effects - what do they mean?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 17 2011, 02:14 PM

Can you be more specific about "most of the drugs' secondary effects"?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 17 2011, 03:23 PM

I thought pretty much all of those secondary effects had rule definitions?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2011, 03:34 PM

Me too... *shrug*

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 17 2011, 03:45 PM

Ok, what I'm talking about, and I'll give examples for both:

Good drug:

This provides clear mechanics and a description of the effects, that is, there is a unison of fluff and mechanics - both for up- and for downsides. Every time I roll a test while under the effect the game forces me to consider the effects of the drug. "Oh, becasue I'm so blissed up I unfortunately fail this delicate mechanical test...". "I'm in such a haze, I probably won't bother to dodge *roll supports claim* - BUT, on the bright side, that punch doesn't even fase me. I just laugh and give him a taste of his medicine."


Bad drug:

Here, there is no unison: Energy boost? Some energy boost. Thent here is the secondary effect: react without thinking. Irrational. What does that mean? How do I play this? Is it enough to say "Oh, I'm all fidgety... I ask the old lady all hyperactive-like: Do you know the way to the next mono-rail station?". That's.... probably as stupid as it sounds, but it's really enough to fulfill all the fluff requirements of the drug, because you can't punish a player for not roleplaying properly. In fact, he might never mention his condition at all, and put any lack of visible effect down to poor acting skills, and he would be completely right in doing so.
A "good" mechanic, and i mean only in the sense that it even IS a mechanic, might say: Whenever the character needs to make a tactical decision, have him roll a composure test. If he fails, count down from 10 to 0, and if the player doesn't proclaim an action in that time his action is forfeit.
A different good mechanic might be a penalty to Log, or +1 Threshold to composure tests, or whatever.

Now we can all agree as long as we like that it would be desirable that the player give this some thought and play accordingly, but any kind of GM-imposed penalties on a perceived improperness of his roleplaying or actions are a pure dick-move, because however you see it, you can't expect a common roleplayer to be a method actor. I certainly don't have a library of techniques to pull out of my hat to suddenly perfectly portrait a guy under such an effect.

So what I'm seeing is: I get a boost to reaction and an IP. I become faster. I do more stuff in less time. Great. Now since I'm doing that, I obviously look like I'm moving faster, which is completely enough to make any guy think I'm agitated or on edge. After it wears off, I get a bad headache. Ok, BAD headache. But that's it, there is nothing else substantial there.

However, you keep reading about people on the boards saying "Oh, my character wouldn't take that, he wants to have his senses together when he's on a run." YES, that's a good fluff reason, but it's not represented in the mechanics at all.

Likewise, for instance:
Now... a good mechanical effect would be: -1 to Cha, or -2 to Cha based skill tests, because obviously talking to oneself looks stupid. But... there is nothing. So that secondary effect is basically non-existant, mechanics-wise. And some people can't actually act that way on their own, so they would have to just say what's happening, which is pretty pointless.

And really, it doesn't have to be numbers. Simple conditionals work, too: Whenever this happens, then the user must... etc. Shadowrun even contains all the base mechanics for these situations: Composure, recollection tests, whatever. It's just really sloppy to not use them.

So to sum this up:
Drugs should have downsides - even above the crash that comes at the end.
These downsides should have in-game effects that don't depend on acting skill, because that varies wildly.
And drugs should have a defined mechanic for when addiction tests are necessary.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 17 2011, 04:11 PM

I see, you're talking about the *fluff* not matching the crunch. I thought you meant the crunch was unclear. (So did TJ and Ascalaphus, heh.)

So, yes. Agreed. Crunch should match the fluff, or they shouldn't say it.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 17 2011, 04:50 PM

Teh crunch is clear, there is just not enough of it. That's what I was saying.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 17 2011, 04:56 PM

Totally. Some drugs have no drawbacks at all, basically.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 17 2011, 08:52 PM

The actually mechanics for addiction rolls are in the game, but not how often the roll should be called for(there are suggestions, but no real crunch on the subject). For some drugs(especially street drugs like Cram), I call for addition tests fairly often.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 17 2011, 10:04 PM

There's an old game design maxim: Balance crunch with crunch, fluff with fluff.

It's not ALWAYS applicable, but it often is.

If you give a mechanical benefit, make the cost mechanical. If you give a roleplay benefit, make the cost roleplay.

Mixing the two tends to result in a rules lawyer's wet dream.




-k

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 17 2011, 11:43 PM

While I believe you are right... it's not even just balance. Combat drugs that don't have side-effects are like... I don't know, throw-away augmentation for cheap. Technically they are balanced by the crash the user suffers at the end, and that alone is a significant risk. However... personally, I would give them more downsides - give real Log and Cha penalties and the like to combat drugs that make you more feral such as Nitro or Kamikaze, but reduce the crashing a bit, or even more than a bit. As is, there are categories of drugs:

Jizz and consorts that have no real drawbacks
And "NPC-drugs" ™. Those are what NPCs take to suddenly turn a stupid ganger into a powerhouse just long enough until he's invariably killed.

That makes no sense. While it may be flavourful for a while to have scores of gangers come at you Reaver-style, it's clearly not a fun thing on the long run. So it would be better if Combat drugs made people better at combat - while seriously hampering other things. In that respect, a long duration is even perfectly fine. "So, Mr. Combat-speedball, now combat is over, we'll just go and meet the J... hey, it's a corpse, not a toy...don't eat that".

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 18 2011, 08:10 AM

I think the fluff is a handy justification for the GM if a player who getting unbalanced power wise by using too much drugs ... might make the player make composure checks or something or take the kind of detrimental action specified (eg: the one where you act irrationally, or suddenly shoot your friend by accident because you're so jumpy, and so on). Of course the rules also say the GM can CHOOSE when a PC becomes addicted. So that's a good balancing tool too, if required.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 18 2011, 09:07 AM

I'm not going to start arguing about this, I'll just post a link explaining an opinion I pretty much share.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3752.0

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 18 2011, 10:48 AM

Not to go too much off topic, but did you notice that it took nearly four pages into that topic until the OP managed to explain to the other posters what he meant, instead of what he seemed to say in his opening post?

Anyway, with drugs the major issue is the vagueness of the addiction rules. I do think it should be somewhat random; taking drugs and hoping not to get addicted should always be a gamble. But currently it's just too vague; unless the GM tells the players how often to expect addiction checks, they have no way to know if drugs are a risk they can afford. In this way the mechanics aren't "consumer friendly", telling the potential "customer" what to expect.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 18 2011, 11:08 AM

Nobody is perfect I guess...



This is just the problem. I wouldn't even care if it said to roll edge every time, but as it is now, it's not usable. Neither as a GM, nor as a player.

Posted by: Psikerlord Oct 18 2011, 11:11 AM

I added to the discussion as it went along, no harm in that?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 18 2011, 12:23 PM

Certainly not.

Posted by: Irion Oct 18 2011, 12:49 PM

Well, I mean it is not much of a problem for a GM to impose a houserule in this instance.
Take the drug, roll a W6, if it shows a 1 an addiction test is called for. (Edge would be also an option here, but I like high edge chars and having edge also used as "luck" in more and more cases would just make this stat even more powerful)
I mean just thing of a edge 7 or even 8 guy in a casino.
Its like:" Propability my ass, I am Gladstone fucking Gander."

If you get addicted you get the disadvantage. (Which may be kicked without spending karma later in the game, but you need to kick the habbit...)

Those are the kind of things, I do not think should be ruled too much, because it is mostly a Roleplay question. Giving it to much "dice-ruling" hinders a bit the playing.
And I do think a GM should punish for bad roleplaying if it has methode. Like taking fluff flaws and outright ignoring them. This is the case with a lot of flaws, if you are honest about it. And it has come up more than once here on dumpshock.

And do not give me there are better and worse Roleplayers. If I take a flaw because I want to play an character like that it comes up, if I just needed the points it is more likely not to come up.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2011, 02:51 PM

Why, Exactly?
I ask, because I disagree. I think it is perfectly okay for it to be vague. After all, addiction in the real world is kind of vague. Way to many factors to provide hardline rules for it. And individuals are all different. *shrug*

After all, We have successfully used the Addiction guidelines quite well in game, ourselves. (Yes, I know, Special Snowflakes, or something)
After all, it really comes down to trust; in your GM and your Players.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 18 2011, 03:44 PM

What about the following, as a quick and dirty rule:

Every time a character uses a drug, roll a 1D6, and apply these modifiers:
+1 for each time the character has previously used this drug in the past 7 days.
+1 if the character is speedballing.
+1 if the drug is described as highly addictive.
-2 for every level of addiction the character already has to this drug.
A result of 6+ means the character must make an Addiction test as specified in the book.

The basic idea is that if you use sparsely, you don't run a big risk, but that increased use increases risk. Meanwhile, addiction levels don't increase too fast, but they can increase. (Feel free to consider other variable values; those are just a first impression.)

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 18 2011, 04:30 PM

This is going down that alley again.

I'll leave it at this: The writers were too lazy to come up with a rule, or correct that, the creative direction/game design department/whatever were too lazy to ask for a proper rule, so they leave it to GMs to decide. It's simply badly designed. They wanted to get the product out unfinished, and even in the rehash this was not considered worthy of reworking. They have an entire section on drugs, but no mechanics for addiction.

Stuff being unreliable, random, whatever, isn't bad at all. But this kind of indecision is sloppy. Either you want a ruleset, or you don't. Pleae do read the link I posted.


This is really the extreme case of bad rules. At least an addiction test that occurs at a whim can be justified as some sort of challenge that has to be overcome. Which is really the same as saying "alright, you have taken the same route to work three days in a row in the roughest district of X, this time you'll be ambushed". Or any other likely challenge that happens because players do something. It IS the GMs job to make the challenges. So... you want to create conflict, I guess asking for an addiction test is quite similar, it's not an auto-fail. It's salvageable as a game element, just not a particularly fun-laden one. The difference obviously being that when any kind of other challenge happens this is supposed to lead to memorably moments, whereas this one leads to a roll. Arguably that's like random traps in D&D, which are where they are for no other reason than to randomly annoy a character that fails a roll. Now a trap that creates a tactical challenge, that's something else entirely.

So it's really not about trust: I trust my GMs (generally speaking) to create fun challenges. It's about how fun the challenge really is.

But the above paragraph is really just nothing other than saying:
"The game master can also do away with tactical or any other mechanically resolved combat and simply determine if, when, and at what severity the PCs are brutally ravaged by the opposing forces, based upon the characters' roleplaying actions or the players' lack of giving him cookies."


Ok, if I were to give the writers/designers a lot of credit, I might start imagining they wanted it that way. Generally it has to be said that addiction is a dangerous (and potentially stupid) thing to be risking, and you don't want it to be predictable in the least.
So... but wait, so is getting in a firefight. What's more stupid, taking a shot of heroin or starting a firefight? What's more stupid, taking a combat drug or starting a firefight? Oh, and obviously: what's most stupid? Easy, taking a combat drug AND starting a firefight.

But then why do firefights have pretty concise rules for nearly everything that can possibly happen, but addiction doesn't?

Final words, or TLDR-version: I don't really have a point other than how sloppy this is. I'm generally deploring the lack of good rules for shadowrun. If this were any other game license a game this sloppily designed would surely fail. But here I am actually playing the game and venting my frustration, because it's really necessary to house rule so many things. Of course, I am to blame, because noone is forcing me. I just want it to be good/better, that's all.

@Ascalaphus:
This is good, and I like it. And I suppose it didn't really take a lot of time or effort, and it's neat and elegant nonetheless. (It's also better than what I came up with.) It takes an antirely new mechanic to a game of generally established mechanics, and adds complexity, albeit not that much. It has a clearly defined design goal and actually follows through with it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 18 2011, 04:43 PM

Ascalaphus' suggestion is more or less what the RAW says. Which is good.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 19 2011, 12:09 AM

I dunno, RAW leaves the frequency of addiction checks a bit too much up in the air. This is an area where a player would want more information about what to expect if he takes drugs IC. How much is "often enough for a check"? With no indication in the rules, you'd need to ask the GM (which isn't a disaster, but it's annoying). As a GM, it's good practice to be consistent, hence to make up a rule such as the one I proposed and stick to it.

My reasonings were these:
1) Odds must be random; that makes it dangerous. You can't be sure that using won't trigger a check, unless you've used less so far than is normal for your current degree of addiction.
2) Odds depend somewhat on how much you're consuming. Consuming more increases risk of addiction.
3) Speedballing is bad.
4) The worse your addiction already is, the more you need to use to worsen your addiction.
5) Consuming only once every week (perhaps at a weekend party) has only a small chance to trigger addiction, although the chance exists.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 19 2011, 12:23 AM

No, I agree. I'm saying that adding some minor specifics is not a huge new mechanic, but merely doing what the rules already say to do.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 19 2011, 05:20 AM

I dunno, it's those minor specifics that make it workable.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 19 2011, 09:01 AM

Sometimes it's good to feel understood...


just saying

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 19 2011, 10:07 AM

I understand what you're getting at when you ask for tighter mechanics, although I think you take it too far sometimes, and that you're a bit colored by past experiences with bad GMs.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 19 2011, 01:56 PM

Ack. I didn't say it wasn't workable! I'm just saying it's a nice *little* change, not a whole new mechanic. Which is what Brainpiercing said. (Everyone understands your obsession with rigid public rules, dude. We just don't agree how big a deal it is.)

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 19 2011, 08:07 PM

Do you know what RAW means? It means ®ules (A)s (W)ritten, what he suggested is completely not RAW, where the rule is basically to call for an addition test whenever you feel like it. I'd agree that there should be more concrete rules, but call them what they are, a house rule.

I think Ascalaphus rules are a step in the right direction, but I don't like the random factor. You already have a random factor with the addiction test. Instead I would make specific conditions that call for an addition test, and add modifiers to said test. Something like if you have no addition test you make a test if you take the drug more often than once a week/month(depending on the type of drug), and as your addition gets worse those intervals will go down(mild makes a test if they take the drug more than once per 3 days/week, moderate day/3 days, severe 6 hours/day). I'd also say there is always an addiction test the first time you take a given drug.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 19 2011, 11:06 PM

That's a question of taste, I guess.

Why do I think it should be random, well... look at alcoholics. NOONE in their right mind would drink like they do if they knew they would become an alcoholic after that drink. Or after the next. So... basically not knowing is part of the game. And double random really isn't bad. Addiction tests could be edged to nearly never fail, anyway - as long as they are not required often. Now, if the PC keeps popping, he sure as hell will end up having to make a few. Or maybe not, who knows?

However, I don't want to make the decision as a GM, either. Yes, even though a GM makes decisions every session that could kill a character, I'm very loathe to make a decision that could leave a character with a significant flaw. Call me squeamish, or whatever.

So, Ascalaphus rule is good because:
- it adds a second measure of random, albeit with an offset the player can influence.
- it saves me the trouble of making that decision as a GM. Yes, I'm actually no longer saying that asking for an addiction test on a whim is bad on principle. It merely adds little to the game.
- it has a clear design goal and follows through with it. (Repeating myself, here, I know. Oh, not the first time, either.)

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 19 2011, 11:40 PM

My main motivation for the random factor, is that otherwise you could probably manipulate the system to really minimize the addiction checks while maximizing drug use opportunities. If you only have to make a test if you've taken drugs in the past X days before, then it becomes a cooldown power, predictable, controllable.

The only real way to control your chance of addiction should be abstinence, not precise timing. The risk of losing control of your power-drugs is exactly the point.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 19 2011, 11:43 PM

TheOOB, this isn't that hard: I'm only saying that it's not a major new mechanic. Instead, it's a minor specification of what the RAW already says to do. I'm not saying his suggestion is RAW or 'already RAW' or anything like that. And I never did so.