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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Whats the problem with Shadowrun 3E ?
Posted by: silva Oct 11 2011, 09:57 PM
I see a considerable number of SR veterans saying the line began to go downhill by mid 3rd edition. As someone who played a lot of SR 2nd ed, but just a couple of 3rd edition games (my group desintegrated around its release), I don’t understand this sentiment, but would like to.
Someone care to explain ?
P.S: the only thing I remember my group felt was a change in tone/atmosphere, straying away from the more gritty/dark vibe of 1e and 2e, to a more colourful/action! one, if that makes any sense. And even if does, it doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of writing or ideas in plot/splash books really.
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 11 2011, 10:03 PM
Hmm....I've been thinking about this myself, having felt rather nostalgic for the 3E days recently. I think there was a point where the books became more power creep-y, and the fluff seemed lazier. Compare a book like Shadows of North America, which just has paragraph summaries of events going on, to a book like Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, and you'll have a sense of the problem, I think.
Early on 4th Ed. had some similar issues, but I'm happy to say that after SR4A the practice of including more illustrations/fiction with the fluff material has added a bit of flavor back to the game. Now my only complaint is that the game seems too...modern. The future as seen in earlier SR editions was unique and weird, because it was based on wild speculation from the 80's and 90's. Now SR technology is extrapolated from real-world tech that we have now, so it feels more like a modern fantasy game than the future. Also, not enough pink mohawks. 
Posted by: CanRay Oct 11 2011, 10:06 PM
Well, the future is here. We don't have as many forward thinkers than we did in the '20s-'80s... I mean, hell, we're flying cars and jetpacks away from the future being NOW.
Even an imaginative type such as myself who was fed on sci-fi along with breast milk has a hard time wondering what's next...
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 11 2011, 10:23 PM
Even an imaginative type such as myself who was fed on sci-fi along with breast milk has a hard time wondering what's next...
It's more of a design thing for me. The tech in modern SR books has product design matching modern tastes, rather than the exotic designs of old. I remember SR3 rules well enough to know that I don't want to go back, but I want some of that flavor. I miss the cables and cyberdecks, for some reason.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 11 2011, 10:25 PM
I do as well. But that's probably because I had to deal with Wireless and idiots using it when they shouldn't far too often IRL.
Hardwired connections have a lot of advantages and abilities that wireless just doesn't. Yet. 2070s time and tech, maybe.
EDIT: It's also one of the reasons that my corner is so tear stained... I have less issues with cyberdecks being "Gone", but really think that there should be something of similar size and power. Yes yes yes, Nexi, I know.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 11 2011, 11:03 PM
I still like 2nd edition best overall, with flavors of 3rd. Like the new initiative passes in 3rd. The VR2/SR3 decking rules (vs base SR2).
Most of all, it's a fluff thing. Yea, the whole NAN thing was a big stretch, but it set Shadowrun apart in being pretty unique. You had alot of solid writing for several years. The shadowtalk alone was what made alot of the 2nd edition books, and many 3rd edition. The Jackpoint stuff now? Doesn't hold my attention.
The current edition I think tries too hard to reconcile stuff from SR1-3 and the modern world. I don't care that we have smartphones today. Pocket Secretaries are freaking cool. Commlinks are lame. Decks are awesome. Wireless technology makes alot of sense. Jacking your brain with something that looks like a stereo cable is just part of the game, IMO.
I like most of the SR3 rules, but my rose colored glasses are probably keeping me from remembering a bunch of the problems with em.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 11 2011, 11:19 PM
*Pouts* I never knew those days. 
Posted by: Platinum Oct 11 2011, 11:24 PM
Someone care to explain ?
P.S: the only thing I remember my group felt was a change in tone/atmosphere, straying away from the more gritty/dark vibe of 1e and 2e, to a more colourful/action! one, if that makes any sense. And even if does, it doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of writing or ideas in plot/splash books really.
By Mid 3rd, there really wasn't alot of "new" stuff coming out. Novels had basically stopped, and material was just a rehash of old. Although the layout quality of the books was improving, the material that made it interesting and gritty was disappearing. The shadowtalk just wasn't as appealing as it was before.
Shadowrun was starting to pull in more transhumanism. Cyberware was going no where because all of the tech that could be thought of, was thought of. The killing of a major meta-char, Dunky also dropped some of the atmosphere. They tried to replace him with an uber version, but there wasn't a personality that someone could grow attached to anymore. Culture also changed. The japanese takeovers which much of shadowrun was based on, gave out to the great chinese sellout.
Man I miss Dowd, Findley and the 80's.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 11 2011, 11:39 PM
The world's changed, and Shadowrun has tried to change with it. And, let's face it, life *ISN'T* as gritty as it was in the '80s.
I'm not saying it's rainbows and free beer, but it's not wondering WHEN the world is going to end with a sure certainty that it was at any moment.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 11 2011, 11:41 PM
It's not helping my nostalgia factor by reading through all the old sourcebooks from SR1 on. Currently in NAN 1.
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 12 2011, 01:32 AM
I'm not saying it's rainbows and free beer, but it's not wondering WHEN the world is going to end with a sure certainty that it was at any moment.
Yeah, but who says the game has to look like the real world? I enjoy playing Pathfinder and L5R because the world is nothing like the modern world. I don't see why Shadowrun couldn't have just remained on separate fork from reality; it diverges from our history in the early 00's anyway.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 01:47 AM
Could be worse. Could be Cyberpunk V.3. *Shudders*
Posted by: Bigity Oct 12 2011, 02:04 AM
I think this was done in order to draw from a bigger audience. New gamers these days have little to no idea (in general) about the concepts and social trends of the 80s that birthed SR.
Some D&D kiddie is not going to routinely pick up a book talking about decking and rigging and have any idea what that is. Hacking, however, is a buzzword that's all over the place. And while I applaud the attempt to 'steamline' the rules, I really can't stand the current dice rolling mechanics, but previous editions were dang complex in many sections.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 02:07 AM
*Sighs* When the hell did it start happening to people when they were in their late-20s?
Posted by: Bigity Oct 12 2011, 02:14 AM
Late 20s? Bah.
I'm going to be 60+ when my youngest graduates college (Lord willing, *fingers crossed*). That makes me feel old.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 02:27 AM
I started feeling old (When I first had to explain the "Cold War" to someone) when I was 26. That was years ago, and it's only gotten worse.
I've had to explain "Punk" to people! They'd hardly heard it as even an insult, forget the style of life. *Sighs* Are we all past our "Best-Before" dates?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 02:29 AM
I'm going to be 60+ when my youngest graduates college (Lord willing, *fingers crossed*). That makes me feel old.
You and me both...
Posted by: Platinum Oct 12 2011, 03:09 AM
I'm not saying it's rainbows and free beer, but it's not wondering WHEN the world is going to end with a sure certainty that it was at any moment.
I wonder what shadowrun would be like if it stayed more true to its roots. the cold ware and world war 2 stuff still have their appeal... so does noir. too bad they messed with something that worked. just show people max headroom and they will "get it"
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 12 2011, 03:13 AM
If you can even FIND Max Headroom. ")
Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 12 2011, 04:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRtjEfw-mSE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18e113BRKE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQMrMwFs51s.
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Max-Headroom-The-Complete-Series/70140799
-k
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 05:56 AM
-k
I like that they aged him at least. The actor looks pretty good for his age, at least. Jim Carey did a version of him as well, IIRC. Damn, I remember staying up late to catch the show...
Posted by: Bull Oct 12 2011, 05:56 AM
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Max-Headroom-The-Complete-Series/70140799
Dunno what you're talking about here, Karma. Max looks glorious to me. GLORIOUS!
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 06:02 AM
Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 12 2011, 06:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGUk6GwDvdo
-k
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 06:06 AM
Not buy, RENT! 
Posted by: Askani'son Oct 12 2011, 11:51 AM
I've been trying to put my finger on the difference in feeling and atmosphere that exists between 2nd & 3rd edition, and I can tell you one thing - it has nothing to do with rules.
I run my campaign using 3rd Ed - I didn't go for 4th because, although I like it, too many of the rules changes are 'visible' in the game world (wireless decking, for example) - but currently set in 2051 (1st & 2nd Ed time period) and am currently making use of published material and modules from that era of the game. I've also been reading some of the novels (Secrets Of Power, 2XS, etc) for source material, and that's the feeling I've been trying to go for with my campaign, and I think despite using 3rd Ed rules, I'm pretty much nailing it.
I do agree that it's very much got to do with the extrapolation of technology from the period of writing. If you've ever read novels such as the Secret's Of Power trilogy, or 2XS you might've noticed the all-pervasive use of hard-wired telecoms/dataterms, whether public callboxes or private terminals, rather than celphones. Obviously an extrapolation of the technology of the time rather than modern tech. One of my players has trouble buying into this, continually using his celphone, trying to check the matrix on it, and use it as a GPS ('But I can do it nowadays, why can't I do it in 2050?') - that'll be coming to an end shortly though, he's been warned that it's not a secure technology - easily hacked and easily traced (thank you 'The Wire'!) - so I'll let paranoia do it's fine work!
I think alot of the changes from 3rd Ed to 4th Ed were concerned with bringing the technology curve up to speed with modern day - ruleswise they effectively rebuilt the decking rules from the ground up to embrace modern wireless tech, and ingame, the Second Crash was a plot device to wipe clean the existing tech and take a massive leap forward.
IMHO, the feel of 1st & 2nd Ed is in the source material & novels rather than rules - it's richer, but can equally easily be generated using 3rd Ed too. 4th, though good in it's own right, is a different barrel of monkeys. An important factor in maintaining that feeling is, I think, keeping them wired and retaining that grimey cyberpunky feeling of tech extrapolated from that time period. If you don't get me, read some of the early novels, I think you'll figure it out.
Posted by: Blade Oct 12 2011, 12:52 PM
Three points : scope, flavor and players
Scope: SR1 and SR2 were about North America, and more specifically Seattle, with a few exceptions. It did care about some details and had some consistency, but it also had big holes. It wasn't afraid of getting into caricature, with dumb and ugly trolls and vegetarians elves. From SR3, Shadowrun started to be more complete, to extend to the rest of the world, and to be more "realistic".
Flavor: SR1 illustrations were made by Queensryche fans, and was written in a time when we knew what the future would look like. And it would look colorful and eccentric. Nowadays you wouldn't be taken seriously if you said that in the future people would look http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zARAXboG0TI/TUjHLCuqNiI/AAAAAAAAAww/ynRYH-gkGBw/s400/SRElvenDecker.gif and that Japan would rule the world.
Players: First there's nostalgia. Then there's the fact that the players were also people who knew what the future would look like.
But after reading a few of the novels, and especially the first trilogy, I have to admit that I didn't get that feel I'm talking about. And when reading the SR2 core book, I only got it from the illustrations and my memories of when I played SR2. The written fluff in itself didn't really feel much different from what we've got in SR4A.
Posted by: jaellot Oct 12 2011, 01:11 PM
Yes. I love the use of this word. Older ediitons feel dirty, and not just the tech. Probably because they were actual books, and an extension of that is the tendency to get smeared fingerprints from snacks around the table. Then there is that rich and heady aroma of an older book. Add in the fact that (at least down this way) tobacco is still a part of a balance breakfast, and you get that old cigarette smell with some of the books in the used stores, too.
Same applies to old WoD stuff, too. And I think the "new" stuff is aimed at a broader audience. Hell, WoD pretty much flat out booted its old player base out the door, but quickly began to backpedal on that.
It's been mentioned the cleanliness of 4th ed. and what not. I think there is alsoa bit of glamourizing, as well. The feel in the older stuff was that being running the Shadows was because the system didn't want you, or wouldn't let you in. You had to do the corps' dirty work in order to survive. Now? It reads like it's some sort of trend. Like getting a tribal or tramp-stamp tattoo.
Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 01:58 PM
I enjoy him on Eureka. He also was great in Watchmen.
-----------------------------
4th gen seems to not only have forgotten the influences that made Shadowrun, but it seems to have gone without influences itself. For me, the final nail in the grave was the Steampunk outfit. That's when I was sure we weren't meant to be playing Phillip K. Dick characters, we were meant to be playing ourselves. Everything became so sanitized. Everyone had rights. Like R.E.M., Shadowrun had gone from "It's the End of the World as We Know It" to "Shiny Happy People".
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 12 2011, 03:59 PM
Agreed. I think it was in Shadows of North America that the PCC started giving SINs to anyone who asked...by the time we get to 4th edition, SINless are on the outside by choice. The runners kind of feel too....professionalized, to me. I'm not sure that I'm putting this in the right words.
Anyone watch Burn Notice? Remember how much more fun the show was early on, when it was just a burned spy with no friendly gov't contacts, his crazy ex-terrorist girlfriend, and a washed-up Navy SEAL? And now Michael is only "burned" as a cover, Fiona is angling to get married, and Sam seems almost respectable. Oh, and Jesse is now a private security contractor. What gives?
It's kind of like that.
Posted by: suoq Oct 12 2011, 05:26 PM
I'm waiting for them to give up entirely on helping strangers A-team/Stringray style and just focus on taking down evil criminal organization X.
Posted by: Draco18s Oct 12 2011, 05:29 PM
http://xkcd.com/864/
Posted by: silva Oct 12 2011, 05:50 PM
Now? It reads like it's some sort of trend. Like getting a tribal or tramp-stamp tattoo.
This.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 07:06 PM
Posted by: tete Oct 12 2011, 07:13 PM
Shadowrun was starting to pull in more transhumanism. Cyberware was going no where because all of the tech that could be thought of, was thought of. The killing of a major meta-char, Dunky also dropped some of the atmosphere. They tried to replace him with an uber version, but there wasn't a personality that someone could grow attached to anymore. Culture also changed. The japanese takeovers which much of shadowrun was based on, gave out to the great chinese sellout.
Man I miss Dowd, Findley and the 80's.
This and by now your runners started having deltaware, YOTC with more crazy zany, basically the power creep got insane. The beginning of 3e was just dull (lack of interesting fluff) and by the end your super cyber troll was even more over the top than before. Magic was already less painful in the beginning of 3e. Still for a target number system the rules were pretty solid but again lost the flavor of the skill web and other odd mechanics. This was a trend in the late 90s though toward good mechanics less fluff. If you look at the early 90s you had VtM, Shadowrun, AD&D all trying to sell some amazing fluff with odd or wonky rules.
Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 12 2011, 07:14 PM
I have a phone like that.
But i STILL want my Hover-Board damn it!
Posted by: silva Oct 12 2011, 08:12 PM
Maybe the fact FASA closed doors mid 3e and Fanpro took it over has something to do with this ? Or not ?
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 12 2011, 08:28 PM
Here's a companion question: If the game has lost so much of its "grime" and street-level feel, how do we get it back?
Nerf bioware?
Harsher drain resistance rules for magic?
Secure paydata stored in dark archives, requiring break-in and direct connection access (this is kind of already the case, right?)
Rejection of any character sheet describing a pale slim gun thug dressed all in black?
I'm a firm believer that we can recapture the glory of 80's fun. I managed to enjoy 80's cartoons again by inviting some buddies over, getting plastered on whiskey and coke, and watching TMNT and She-Ra. We can make this happen. Though if previous experience is any guide, we may have to get drunk first.
Posted by: Draco18s Oct 12 2011, 09:03 PM
First off:
Nothing valuable is connected to the wireless matrix.
Secondly:
No more "ex-cop", "ex-marine", or "ex-super-soldier" type character concepts. They don't fit into the game world. Any corp willing to implant you with that much deltaware isn't going to let you go.
Third:
Illegal shit is fucking illegal. APDS shouldn't be the staple of every runner's arsenal, much less ex-ex. Just because you're doing illegal things to make money doesn't mean you have access to illegal gear unless you nab it illegally. There's some room for some items to be on the black market, but not in quantity and not cheap.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 12 2011, 09:33 PM
I can't agree with the ADPS thing enough. Getting that stuff was the result of hard work and luck, and you saved that crap for when you really needed it.
It's like shadowtalk that came with ADPS when it was introduced in the SSC 'i stole 2 clips of this stuff from Fort Lewis, but I had to use it up to get out'. The responses were like 'damn you got balls'.
EDIT: I also think the uncaring brutality of the world needs to be spun up again. Even JackPointers are almost touchy-feely types it seems like. This is a world where people sell bums for cash to ghouls and organ leggers, so they can eat for a week. Where bunraku parlors are thriving, and almost everyone either escapes from real life into the matrix or BTL chips.
Posted by: Faelan Oct 12 2011, 09:38 PM
Personally I have not lost the grime on the streets even using the SR4A setting as a starting point. It is the responsibility of the GM to build a mood, and really that is what this dark, grim, hopeless, old tech feel is. How do you accomplish it? Accentuate the difference between the corporate havens, a seeming utopia, a glass, stainless steel marvel of technology and city planning, and everywhere outside of that is in varying states of societal decay. Kids shoot each other with designer throwaway guns over food. Everyone has intermittent power in the bad areas of town, running water is a luxury, a place to live with a locking door and only half the plaster or drywall missing is pretty nice. What about AR? How is that second hand commlink? The slightly used pair of sunglasses with image link that some rich corp threw away, and then a dumpster diver pawned it for food. Sure your runners are not using second hand gear, but they are probably living in a less than pleasant area. They have several fake SINS all with backgrounds in crap neighborhoods where it is difficult to verify a damn thing, I mean their cover ID's need to be nobody's or their job becomes difficult, sure later on one might be a SIN in a nice area with a Luxury lifestyle, but you sure as hell ain't doing business using it, and if you are expect it to get burned. It rains, a lot, and it eats through your clothing. Any useful data is in a dedicated Nexus that can only be hardwired in. Real important shit gets couriered not transmitted. Did I mention people really will shoot you in the face for food. New shit sticks out like a sore thumb advertising that you have money, do it without a rep and you are going to get messed with. Have a rep and still expect the occasional kid out to make a rep for himself by taking out the big dogs. It is still a jungle of the have nots and the haves who have fallen, nothing has really changed.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 12 2011, 09:43 PM
But I bet you started SR before 4th edition. Am I right?
Posted by: Platinum Oct 12 2011, 10:31 PM
Nerf bioware?
Harsher drain resistance rules for magic?
Secure paydata stored in dark archives, requiring break-in and direct connection access (this is kind of already the case, right?)
Rejection of any character sheet describing a pale slim gun thug dressed all in black?
I'm a firm believer that we can recapture the glory of 80's fun. I managed to enjoy 80's cartoons again by inviting some buddies over, getting plastered on whiskey and coke, and watching TMNT and She-Ra. We can make this happen. Though if previous experience is any guide, we may have to get drunk first.
1: make shadowrunners elite again. not just run of the mill.
2: magic needs to be nerfed. bring back grounding.
3: change initiative back. If you are not fast or a tank, you are dead. it reflects reality, he who moves/reacts faster goes first and many times (also helps to nerf magic)
4: need 2 tiers of matrix/decking. AR for information and simple things around the world. Anything of value is wired.
5: need to bump up the camera paranoia. shadowrunners should not be walking around just anywhere they are criminals. make them keep to the shadows.
6: runs need to pay more. I am not going to do something illegal for 3000. make it 50 000 and now you are getting close. +25 000 for everyone I have to murder
7: tone down the uberness of dragons, and pump up the competitiveness of corporations. (kill the politics)
8: undo anything ever Rob Boyle touched in shadowrun (eclipse phase is his sweet spot)
9: kill the bio\cyber index. In second you had 6 essence, and up to your body in bio.
10: get Jim Butcher to write some novels.
11: kill the timline. nothing wrong with a game staying at 2053
12: Seattle is rainy, dismal. perfect for shadowrun. make more happen here. being surrounded by native and elves really helped keep things in the city.
13: get rid of skin link and PANs.
Posted by: Faelan Oct 12 2011, 11:04 PM
All four/five editions though not much of third. Actually I just started this one up a month ago, and I am not trying to guide it based on any nostalgia, rather I want it to fit the fluff. The fluff as I see still represents an overpowering, technically savvy, corporate elite with its tendrils in everything, corrupting everything it touches. Even those who "do good" in the Shadowrun world have to take ethically questionable actions to forward their agenda, and how often do they fall. The stories might seem slicker, they might even seem cleaner sometimes, a little more 007, Bourne Identity, but in the end it is all shit. The world is shit, the players live in shit, and the Megacorps keep it that way. The only people fooled by the glitter are the corpdrones with their Selective AR filters on Corp is Good mode.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 12 2011, 11:06 PM
I'm all for Jim Butcher writing novels. I think my stories are pretty grimy as well, but that's just my opinion.
Really point out the disparity of the neighborhoods, that's what I did for my group. They rarely felt the world was a nice place, even in the better parts of LA they had their van tagged by a "Gang". (They were wannabes, but they were still a "Gang". 
).
San Diego I showed as being a wonderful, beautiful place with picturesque buildings and a wonderful convention going on with a low crime rate, even Shadowrunning. Then I brought in the Police Presence to show how it was done.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 12:56 AM
I have a strong urge to start a 2nd edition game somewhere.
Posted by: Platinum Oct 13 2011, 12:58 AM
my friend and I play all the time over skype. If you dig up your old char, you can join in on a game. I would prefer to create a group that plays regularly. The problem is that everyone else we meet isn't willing to gm. so we just gm each other. It's more novel-esque that way.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 01:00 AM
Yea, being able to set aside a set time is my problem. My third kid is 4 weeks old Friday
Posted by: Platinum Oct 13 2011, 01:12 AM
That just means you are on parental leave and have tonnes of time.
If you are interested down the road, we normally play for a few hours late nights on weekends.
Dig up your old char, and we will stick it on file. Any amount of karma is fine.
We aren't munchkins, but we have experienced characters. Nostalgia is really why we play.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 02:12 AM
I appreciate the offer and will keep it in mind
Until then, I'll keep re-reading the sourcebooks starting with 1st edition moving up.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 02:12 AM
I appreciate the offer and will keep it in mind
Until then, I'll keep re-reading the sourcebooks starting with 1st edition moving up.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 13 2011, 02:18 AM
Corrupt 'em all young!
Posted by: Platinum Oct 13 2011, 02:30 AM
Until then, I'll keep re-reading the sourcebooks starting with 1st edition moving up.
I started a play by email conversation run. That worked pretty well. It allowed us to RP when we had time. It allowed us to do life but move the game along. We were corresponding about 12 messages between us a day. Better than nothing. Don`t forget to read some of the short stories. Dragon talk for instance.
Posted by: nezumi Oct 13 2011, 01:27 PM
Lovely third edition ... IMO, they mechanics were just about the best of the Shadowrun line; plenty of granularity, very deadly, space for tactical thought, but not hugely imbalanced in favor of any one class. If you're bringing it back, there are some tweaks I would make, such as to autofire. Check out sr3r for some smart changes (yes, the project is still alive, just veeeeery sloooow. Still, you can pick and choose among great ideas.) Of course, you can run any other mechanics you want, but be aware, the mechanics DO define the world to a large degree.
Regarding the setting, I feel like it was two-fold; firstly, the publisher needed to keep making up new content to keep selling books. Some of their forays were ... less than genius (YotC). Secondly, the real world proved aspects of Shadowrun wrong. SR4 was a good business move, but they certainly could have just updated SR3 if they wanted.
If I were to redo the setting, it would depend on my players. Are they children of the 80s? If so, play up those aspects. If not? I'd play them up more Don't tie Shadowrun to what the world will actually be like in 2060. This is an alternate timeline, and some stuff just is not available. Things need to be dirty and desperate. Play up the horror-movie aspect, play down the action-movie. Tie it in to the '99%' and banks 'too big to fail'. Make it personal. Give points for style, but make sure the cops bring down the hammer on any runners who get too cocky and stick around for long.
Posted by: Zaranthan Oct 13 2011, 04:45 PM
I like this list, and am definitely printing it out and hanging it over my design desk. I do need to ask about a few items, though.
2: magic needs to be nerfed. bring back grounding.
For us kiddies who missed 3E, but agree that magicrun is silly, how did this shut things down? Was it something like WoD's Paradox where too much magic could make the world start twisting you back?
3: change initiative back. If you are not fast or a tank, you are dead. it reflects reality, he who moves/reacts faster goes first and many times (also helps to nerf magic)
4E's initiative pass system seems to work like this already. Are you saying the sam should get his 3 passes before the face gets his 1? While I agree that having a guy who's absolutely essential to the team's success having no combat options aside from finding a good piece of cover and wetting his pants is cool and hilarious, it's not very fun to BE that player from a gamist perspective.
8: undo anything ever Rob Boyle touched in shadowrun (eclipse phase is his sweet spot)
10: get Jim Butcher to write some novels.
Again, for the kids, what are you referring to here? Which mechanics need to be excised?
Posted by: Draco18s Oct 13 2011, 05:17 PM
For us kiddies who missed 3E, but agree that magicrun is silly, how did this shut things down? Was it something like WoD's Paradox where too much magic could make the world start twisting you back?
Grounding was a metamagic feat that let mages cast spell on material targets from the astral by targetting a dual natured object or critter, ie. a sustaining focus.
Although it actually makes magicrun more silly, not less, a PC mage would summon a F1 spirit, have it materialize next to the enemy, and then Fireball it (killing the enemy).
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 06:06 PM
Actually it wasn't a metamagic, nor did it work through spirits.
It was just something any caster could do. An active foci let something from the astral plane channel a spell through that foci, 'grounding' it to the physical plane.
You could cast an AOE spell at that focus, it would affect all targets within the area of effect, on the physical plane. The spell had to 'beat' the focus first, then the spell would cast on the physical plane, with the focus as the center. Or you could use a single target only spell, but it would only affect whoever was holding/wearing the focus. Only physical spells worked this way though. I think only combat spells worked this way as well.
So, some mage have a spell lock up that is making you sad? Ground a fireball through his focus and fry him and his buddies standing around him from the astral while your body is safely behind a wall or two.
Basically grounding was the penalty for active foci, not addiction junk. You rocked the spell lock, you took your chances. It was the balance to having spell locks cost 1 karma to bond, using one with a smart mage/shaman around was literally sticking your neck way out there.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 13 2011, 06:40 PM
Again, for the kids, what are you referring to here? Which mechanics need to be excised?
Jim Butcher is a novelist that's put out a few series (But so far nothing for Shadowrun, he wasn't writing when Shadowrun Novels were being put out), one of which, The Dresden Files, is very Shadowrun in feel. Aside from being in Modern Times.
If you look for them, ignore the horrible TV show, just look for the novels. Jim is, literally, counting the days until the IP for TV returns to him so that he can get someone that will do it right. (Honestly, a HOCKEY AND DRUM STICK for magic tools? Did they blow the budget on illicit drugs?).
He also took The Lost Roman Legion (An idea that's been done to death) and Pokemon, combined them together, and made a series full of AWESOME!
Posted by: Draco18s Oct 13 2011, 07:15 PM
Ah, I was off. I only know of the mechanic through what I remember reading on the forums.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 07:31 PM
No worries. I just happen to be readng through old rulebooks lately
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2011, 07:41 PM
Though Technically, you cannot cast a Physical Spell on the Astral Plane (You can only cast Mana based Spells) so the Grounding of Elemental Spells is really right out as well.
Could be remembering incorrectly (for SR2), though.
Posted by: Platinum Oct 13 2011, 08:36 PM
Could be remembering incorrectly (for SR2), though.
You can ground any physical spell through the focus. They were usually combat spells like hellblast because they have lower drain. If you tried grounding lightning, or acid through you would most likely drop dead. Drain is physical on astral.
Posted by: Platinum Oct 13 2011, 08:45 PM
3: change initiative back. If you are not fast or a tank, you are dead. it reflects reality, he who moves/reacts faster goes first and many times (also helps to nerf magic)
4E's initiative pass system seems to work like this already. Are you saying the sam should get his 3 passes before the face gets his 1? While I agree that having a guy who's absolutely essential to the team's success having no combat options aside from finding a good piece of cover and wetting his pants is cool and hilarious, it's not very fun to BE that player from a gamist perspective.
It was annoying to many of the slow players, like a face, but everyone gets their time to shine. The sammie sits and does nothing while the face roles and rolls. I played both ends of the spectrum and really, there are times when everyone shines.
It also teaches people to be more inventive with their actions. At the beginning the sammie is faster, but quickly the others find a way to speed themselves up.
Also if you want to bring the sammie down a peg, just throw some spirits at him. He won't have a foci to hit it with.
I am hard on Rob, but he was the line developer who made shadowrun shiny. his vision was completely different from SR's roots.
Again, for the kids, what are you referring to here? Which mechanics need to be excised?[i]
Jim Butcher really is a talented writer. He beats up his protagonists and constantly kills off main characters. he does it inventively, and in a character developing manner. (grab the audiobooks from a library)
Oh ... and grounding was abused when people say they could summon a watcher spirit and ground through them from astral space, when manifested. (basically making them an astral bomb) We never did this thankfully.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 13 2011, 09:27 PM
Well as we see above, that wasn't legal anyway.
Where can I get an OCR PDF of the 2nd edition rules?
EDIT: I guess BattleCorps or DriveThru don't have em. Bugger all.
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 13 2011, 09:46 PM
Wait, are you guys saying that Magicians can't be attacked through their active foci anymore? When did that happen? I'd always assumed that this was still the case. If you had an active focus, you were dual-natured and could be attacked by astral things.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2011, 09:59 PM
Could not ground spells in either 3rd or 4th, from what I remember.
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 13 2011, 10:35 PM
I'm pretty sure in 3rd edition that anyone with an active sustaining focus was dual-natured, which meant they were attackable in the Astral (ditto for anyone Astrally Perceiving). It's not the same as grounding (your teammates were safe), but it was definitely a disadvantage to using sustaining foci to keep Mage Armor/Enhanced Reflexes on yourself.
Posted by: Platinum Oct 13 2011, 10:40 PM
You weren't dual natured. You can attack the focus with the dispel metamagic. That will deactivate it, and break the bond. You cannot damage a mage unless he was perceiving.
Posted by: Blade Oct 14 2011, 08:40 AM
Rob Boyle didn't make Shadowrun shiny. He made it a bit more transhumanist, but he put the grit back in SR4 as well. I wonder if Mike Mulvihill hasn't done more to make Shadowrun shiny than Rob has.
But after all, even Robert N. Charette's books are more "epic" and heroic than bleak and gritty. And the world they describe isn't the one people seems to remember from the first editions.
Posted by: Cheops Oct 15 2011, 01:31 AM
Does anyone know if Neo-Anarchism is referrenced in SR4 at all? I'm not trying to slag the edition I'm just curious if the movement is still around.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 15 2011, 01:33 AM
FastJack toasts the old Neo-@s in the beginning of SR4 when he complains that it should be Captain Chaos writing this.
I'd say the movement is still around (Black Cross and Black Crescent are both mentioned), but it's taken a serious blow as there's been a serious shift away from all the PoliClubs in general.
EDIT: Until this year, I'd have thought the people in the First World had forgotten how to do a good, proper riot, really. Some days, I feel like Spider Jerusalem... Only I don't get access to all the nice drugs he does...
Posted by: Tiralee Oct 15 2011, 09:14 AM
"The feel in the older stuff was that being running the Shadows was because the system didn't want you, or wouldn't let you in. You had to do the corps' dirty work in order to survive. Now? It reads like it's some sort of trend. Like getting a tribal or tramp-stamp tattoo. "
God, THIS.
We play 3rd and our best comes from being hardscrabble, or smart enough to not exist, to fall through the cracks. A lot in the early stuff was safetly and security = the corps, freedom and self-determination = a corpse.
Yes, we want comfort, but not in a plushy coffin.
It really looks too safe now - re-read Queen Euphoria (Still best published adventure) and the descriptions of her lavish digs vs the squat where your hardcase sleeps fitfully.
Yes, once Fanpro choked there was some severe creep and a lot of was "it worked for <insert different game here> let's try that".
Dunkie buying it was biiig, major and with less colour to it than some of the lesser splatbooks. Sure, Dunkie's bequest tried to make up for it (Sorta wish they'd made at least an official attempt at chasing down each plot thread that can-of-worms created - you could have gotten 4-8 entire adventure books from some of the behind-the-scenes bastardry that was going on, but everytime I tried, the players looked at me, looked at each other and said, "Don't fucking deal with dragons or their shit") but considering the UB (and that was some serious evil right there) and the the crap from Deus and the SCIRE (Oh, look, it's the world's biggest dungeon! Again!), it was ripples, because noone wanted to rock the boat when it came to the Dragons.
Year of the Comet - eh, for introducing the Sheldim, it's a sorta pass. For introducing the Changlings, it gets beaten with a phonebook.
Threats! Threats 2! Where's fucking Threats 3?
Could you see some of the big-ass baddies in SR4 filling the pages with horror, like reading though and understanding that 2 of the biggest Dragons in the 6th world were discussing how best to bomb Chi-Town back to the stone age with chemical weapon-grade insecticides? And that it was only the start?
There it is - you can see the other side and reach it in time with the later versions. In SR2-early SR3, it was far and away from you. You could smell it sometimes, when the wind was right, but you went on and ate your damn soymeal and felt better than the guy down there in the street grilling his devil rat familiar.
-Tir
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 16 2011, 03:21 PM
I think it was that the quality of the suppliments slipped. the 'fluff' that made the world richer was all but abnadoned in favor of just number crunching. THe play stystem itself was fine, we still use 3rd ed except for the hacking rules.
Posted by: bibliophile20 Oct 16 2011, 03:30 PM
Jim Butcher is a novelist that's put out a few series (But so far nothing for Shadowrun, he wasn't writing when Shadowrun Novels were being put out), one of which, The Dresden Files, is very Shadowrun in feel. Aside from being in Modern Times.
If you look for them, ignore the horrible TV show, just look for the novels. Jim is, literally, counting the days until the IP for TV returns to him so that he can get someone that will do it right. (Honestly, a HOCKEY AND DRUM STICK for magic tools? Did they blow the budget on illicit drugs?).
He also took The Lost Roman Legion (An idea that's been done to death) and Pokemon, combined them together, and made a series full of AWESOME!
Jim Butcher writing a Shadowrun novel.
Excuse me while I squee at the mere thought...
Posted by: CanRay Oct 16 2011, 04:37 PM
Excuse me while I squee at the mere thought...
Posted by: nezumi Oct 17 2011, 02:16 PM
In 3rd edition an active focus was dual-natured, and could be attacked by astral critters, or an astrally-perceiving mage was dual-natured and could be attacked. A beaten focus broke, a beaten mage went unconscious. Both could be averted by going physical-only, and neither were a direct threat to everyone around them.
2nd edition an active focus or perceiving mage were dual natured, and your astral-only mage could cast fireball at him -- which would then explode and cook everyone else in the room. This meant if you're a street sammie, you were suddenly very nervous about standing next to the mage, and a sustaining focus was a tool which threatened to kill EVERYONE, not just sink you $200k.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 17 2011, 02:25 PM
I am pretty sure only active foci could be used that way, not a perceiving magician.
EDIT: Nope, nez is correct
On another note, I can't find references to grounding in SR1 rulebook. Did it get added in the Grimoire?
Posted by: Platinum Oct 17 2011, 03:23 PM
EDIT: Nope, nez is correct
On another note, I can't find references to grounding in SR1 rulebook. Did it get added in the Grimoire?
No ... Grounding is in the second edition main rules only.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2011, 03:35 PM
And Good Riddance...
Posted by: cleggster Oct 17 2011, 03:52 PM
A quick house rule for grounding I did was that you can't cast a spell though a focus with a force higher then the rating of the focus. So casting fireball though a spell lock was kind of pointless. Through a rating 6 weapon focus, go nuts. Astral magicians (perceiving or traveling), were limited to there magic rating. Or was that as written? I can't remember.
Watch out for exploding mages!
Posted by: Bigity Oct 17 2011, 06:23 PM
Heck no, grounding is/was an awesome rule.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2011, 09:24 PM
Not Really...
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 18 2011, 02:16 AM
Excuse me while I squee at the mere thought...
HELLO NURSE!!!!!
Posted by: Blaze Oct 18 2011, 12:25 PM
Nice to see some faces I recognise on here from the 3E days...
Personally I've not left them, in spirit at least. I can't really say I do much different under the SR4 engine than I did in SR3. I suppose it helps that my more experienced players also cut their teeth under the old system and come into the new with the same mindset.
SR4's given me a lot of advantages as a player and a GM. If anything it's lowered the power level, made things more gritty- the characters my players throw at me are, by and large, less heavily tooled and more in tune with the streets they work. And as a GM I can throw together games in half the time, and cover more ground- no more banning deckers as player-characters because I didn't want the rest of the group heading off on a beer run halfway through the session because they were bored.
Having said that, I do feel like I could tell a better yarn in SR3. I don't know if it was the state of the world in '60-'64, or the state of my mind when I was coming up with ideas, but I could keep a plot rolling a lot longer and come out of it feeling more fulfilled. I think the background of SR3 agreed more with me than the present. But then again, it depends on what backgrounds I'm handed as to where I think of going- if the characters are lower-level, so's the game. I could play at a higher power level- but then I may as well just dust off the SR3 books and practice my best maniacal laugh. 
Posted by: darthmord Oct 18 2011, 12:49 PM
I disagree. It was a horrible rule.
Such that even the anti-magic types in my gaming group at the time didn't like it. That said something since they were all for punishing magic users.
We didn't use Grounding or Spell Locks. Those things had other drawbacks beyond Grounding (rating 1 doesn't protect against much attacking the spell it is holding).
Then again, we all had played SR1 as well. SR2 for us was simply SR1 but a whole lot easier and faster to play.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 03:59 PM
Bastards, the lot of you.
I wanted to play 1st edition...
Posted by: JonathanC Oct 18 2011, 04:06 PM
I think what feels most different about SR4 is that it feels like the setting has mellowed. I'm not sure why, but I can picture proper suburbs now, and people living in them. Before it felt like you wither lived in a burned-out apocalyptic nightmare like Redmond, or in some 1984-esque Arcology where the corp controlled everything. I can't put my finger on what changed my perception of the sixth world in SR4, but something did.
Also, thanks to Nezumi for clearing up the SR2/SR3 difference.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Oct 18 2011, 04:34 PM
While I think grounding was cool, I do think it could have been implemented better. I would have removed the whole area of effect part of it and just left it at it hurts the focus and the person linked to the focus. You want that reflex boost spell in a spell lock fine, just don't be surprised when you eat a powerbolt. Combined with the 2e initiative system and mages end up being fairly balanced, especially if you don't create a bunch of dodges around the grounding things 2 supplements in. Which reminds me in general if you create a limit in the core rules don;t make a dodge around it in a later supplement. If the limit was wrong patch it out, don't backdoor a fix.
Not that 2e was perfect, but it was my favorite edition.
3e screwed up 3 big things IMO.
Split the combat skill. More general skills work better IMO, 4e improved it a bit with the skill groups, but honestly 2e and 1e just did the skill lists better. I might split some of the skills but I am talking like 5 or 6 in total, and none of them would be weapon skills.
Changed the initiative system. Yeah I get it slow people arr bored and might get shot to hell, Well the fast people frequently have point sin the game where they are bored as well, let them shine where they invested their points combat.
Grounding being fully removed instead of tweaked.
Mid to late 3e it started to go wrong with fluff and power boosts but that was not core to the 3e system.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 04:44 PM
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2011, 05:21 PM
Simple.... You got older and your perspective changed.
Posted by: Pendaric Oct 19 2011, 08:52 PM
I'll borrow a saying of one of my dear aquaintance Mr Croup. "SR3 is four rules systems connected by a common game world."
With rules/fluff spread over to many rule books and power creep a revision was needed. Like a LAW rocket being more expensive than a ATGM for Frag sake!?
The actual ideas being introduced were not really flying but plodding and the fluff got too my special forces runner turned demi god and less my street punk surviving, (though they did telegraph the Crash 2.0 and wireless in Magic in the Shadows in mini plot FYI, the rest was save the world type affairs not what you can live with to see to tomorrow vs sticking it to the Man.."
Still run SR3 and love wringing SR4 for developments and things to surprise.
Each system has its flaws ~I just know them all in SR3, like vehicle combat rules should be avoided for a intense chase scene and dont let the deckers player think they can deck every system they can think of for hours of real world game play on pain of PAIN. And so you could cast magic when you were an embryo? magic user Nomad albino focused concentration... etc
"ah you have guessed my answer correctly player 1, please revisit your charater creation place or you may join the decker after his (last avoiding the game were here to roleplay) paydata month long crime spree penance."
It not that SR4 can not give great stories, its just that we have had lots of great stories with SR3 and dont really need to relearn a new set of tools to keep going.
CLG though needs to make money to pay for all that cool new stuff they are introducing to us so they can be creative and well eat.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 20 2011, 01:44 AM
Groundout spells through focus/fetish/locks/fancy undies whatever was that great tool the first time you let fly with it on the other guy, but the momment you realized it went both ways-it meant people were terrified of spending karma on their own stuff for fear the GM would burn it out 2 sessions later. It killed off the entire line of magic tools
Posted by: Bigity Oct 20 2011, 01:59 AM
Not really. It kept them from being so commonplace you don't leave chargen anymore without 3 or 4, and made them powerful tools you used when you had to, not because 'why not?'.
Posted by: Blaze Oct 20 2011, 06:56 AM
I was going to say I knew a GM doing that to good effect, then I realised it was you.
Posted by: Zaranthan Oct 20 2011, 12:30 PM
You consider essence loss and penalties to drain tests "why not" material?
Posted by: Pendaric Oct 20 2011, 01:01 PM
Cheers.
Posted by: Pendaric Oct 20 2011, 01:12 PM
I dislike grounding both mechanically and for explaination to a new player.
The ease of saying nothing passes between the astral/ meat unless on dual natured target, SO ONLY MANA SPELLS from astral is a lot easier.
Mechanically, in SR3 the foci costs in nuyen and karma made them serious equipment with a serious investment. You may have a few sustaning/ expendable foci at char gen but not much else. And if your less than mini maxed or split skill, you need them badly.
Ever tried to magicaly heal a street sam with effective negative essence on the TN, for example?
Posted by: Platinum Oct 20 2011, 01:45 PM
The ease of saying nothing passes between the astral/meat unless on dual natured target, SO ONLY MANA SPELLS from astral is a lot easier.
Mechanically, in SR3 the foci costs in nuyen and karma made them serious equipment with a serious investment. You may have a few sustaning/ expendable foci at char gen but not much else. And if your less than mini maxed or split skill, you need them badly.
Ever tried to magicaly heal a street sam with effective negative essence on the TN, for example?
The bonding costs were the same in 3E as 2E. Instead of spell locks there were sustaining foci.
What grounding did was get rid of the guy running around with 20 active spell locks with spells of different ratings. It was difficult to ground through a focus of 4 or more. Quickening made things even more difficult if you doubled the karma input.
If a mage initiated, then he/she just masked them in his/her aura. Plenty of our mages carried foci. I don't remember anyone having been grounded through. We were selective on when we activated them, and generally kept them at high levels. 1 karma wasn't a lot to lose, and if something was grounded, there was always shielding.
Posted by: nezumi Oct 20 2011, 04:02 PM
Some people liked that
Although to be fair, some of those rules systems really didn't work (like vehicle combat, which you mentioned).As for the rules ... SR3 didn't suffer from power creep as much as rules creep. A street sam with all the books would have only a slight advantage of a street sam with only the core book, if they went toe-to-toe. However, the former would be able to do a lot more, and have a lot more special rules and exceptions which apply. (But there were bugs, again, Rigger 3 holding a huge share.)
Posted by: Bigity Oct 20 2011, 04:13 PM
Focus addiction existed before SR4, so it's not like they added that in to replace grounding.
And grounding got less important after spell locks became sustaining foci, but it was still a counter for low level foci.
Posted by: Paul Oct 20 2011, 04:43 PM
Number one problem with SR3? It's not a currently supported product! Ah good memories though!
Posted by: silva Oct 21 2011, 09:07 AM
Yup, I have this impression too. Things seemed more extreme in old editions, sometimes even getting an absurd tone, that I loved. Now, things a too.. normal, mundane.
Posted by: Platinum Oct 21 2011, 01:39 PM
I agree. But better yet, the old material hasn't been made open source.
The sad thing is that we as customers haven't stepped in either to bridge the gap. I think there are opportunities to make supplements using the rulesets that would bridge the gap. For instance I would like to recruit help for a fallout and a dresden files ruleset/supplement sourcebook. Statting out Denarians and skinwalkers would be cool. I think magic would need a little tweaking for the Dresdanverse, and fallout would need special modifiers for crotch shots.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 21 2011, 03:46 PM
I'm in for Fallout. Especially if I can get in on the game.
Posted by: Platinum Oct 21 2011, 05:56 PM
I love running post apoc runs. You prefer with or without magic?
I haven't seen any good scrounging/scavenging rules to draw reference from in my searches.
Alternate settings is a definite missing piece to Shadowrun.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 21 2011, 08:21 PM
Deadlands: Hell On Earth. I have a number of printed-out scavenging rules from various websites... Somewhere. Some of the pages are so old and referenced that they're worn away, actually.
*Pouts* And link rot seems to have gotten most of them. http://hoe.1d6.com/index.php?view=scrounger.
EDIT: http://www.reocities.com/grifflik/Shelter-DUCT.html! http://www.reocities.com/grifflik/Shelter-MarshalsTools-DUCT2.html. Pity, I had a good relationship with these guys once upon a time.
EDIT2: http://web.archive.org/web/20050314005038/http://www.eyeballkid.co.za/barter.html!
Posted by: Kirk Oct 21 2011, 08:58 PM
Also, thanks to Nezumi for clearing up the SR2/SR3 difference.
I think it's two faces of one issue -- time.
First is simple human nature being reflected.
For the 'adults' of the 2050s, VITAS and the Awakening and Goblinization and the Crash were first-hand experiences. Just as significant they were wildly unexpected. VITAS was the closest to being an "anticipated" catastrophic event (see Bird Flu). For these adults the world CHANGED, and the back-to-back shocks locked in the mindset that you could trust nothing. Everything you thought you knew wasn't true.
SR4 is 20 years later. While there are a lot of people who experienced the change, for the majority of "current" adults the magic and goblinization and cyber and all that is normal. They've adapted. It's... OK, some of us are old enough we had a relative or acquaintance who died in VietNam and who occasionally boggle at personal computers, cell phones, and the internet. Even if we had our own small part in making it happen. VN is already ancient history to the majority of legal adults, and in 20 more years the idea of NOT having internet will be hard to wrap one's head around.
So whether you like it or not part of it is that the people of SR are, well, adapting.
Unfortunately, the second face is that this adaptation is pushed. There are these clues (for lack of a better word) that indicate normality is happening.
The biggest thing to me? Commuters. There are commuter cars and there are commuting executives. Nations still exist -- and matter -- despite the brief flirtation with corporatocracy. SINs happen - when you work for a corp or when you deal with a corp or when you get arrested (and live) by a corp. SINs are the majority, not minority. The poor and outcast are the exception, not the rule. There's international trade so you can get pretty much anything anywhere and get most anywhere without that much pain.
There are more, but that's the deal. It's throughout SR4's stories. It's common in a lot of SR3 missions and the later gaming material for SR3.
I'm not sure how to reverse this. People like stability. Corporations like it too, mostly. I can push against it as a GM, but not easily -- certainly not while incorporating new material that almost requires some of that stability.
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