Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Loch Oct 14 2011, 08:55 PM

So the last run we were sent on went pear-shaped, and the group ended up with a dead rigger, less than 700 nuyen in profit per person, three ransacked hideouts- and three dormant sukuyan in sealed metal crates.

We're in the process of finding new hideouts, but I'm wondering...how much are those vampires worth?
Who do you even talk to about selling that sort of thing? Tamanous?

Posted by: Paul Oct 14 2011, 09:02 PM

I'd say Tamanous is one option. Another would be that some governments collect bounties on the infected. Another option might be programs doing research into how their product affects/effects the infected. (Biotechnology Corporations, ParaBiology Programs.)

I'd say Market Value is going to vary based on a lot of factors-how many other people are selling vampires? What condition are they in? Etc....Since I don't know what kind of power level you're looking at your particular table I'd start out high-ball. (At least the take you'd clear on a good run, maybe more.)

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 14 2011, 10:21 PM

Can't you put them through a meat grinder to produce telesma?

Posted by: Tiralee Oct 14 2011, 11:05 PM

Ascalaphus - you would be a perfect addition to our table with that comment.

-Tir:)

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 14 2011, 11:19 PM

Chain them out on the rooftop to see if they sparkle?




-k

Posted by: Dez384 Oct 15 2011, 03:08 AM

From Running Wild. Looks like I did give you a fair price.

Posted by: Bigity Oct 15 2011, 03:27 AM

Only 3k for Dzoo-noo-qua? You might as well get a regular job.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 15 2011, 03:29 AM

If you can get them in job lots from a helicopter, it adds up.

Posted by: ggodo Oct 15 2011, 08:34 PM

As with many things the trick is to buy in bulk.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 15 2011, 10:03 PM

Wonder if they have bounties in Alaska? The Palin family would be all right.

...

Yes yes, I know, "The Special Hell".

Posted by: Irion Oct 15 2011, 10:30 PM

But still, some of those numbers should have one additional zero at the end. Vampires and Nosferatus in any case.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 15 2011, 10:34 PM

Oh, really Irion? Who do you think made sure those prices stay so low?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 15 2011, 11:02 PM

Why do you say that? For all the publicity they get, the Infected (all of them, from vampires to ghouls) only make up about 0.1% of the population. The vast majority of those are ghouls (better than 90% are ghouls, though I haven't actually sat down and hashed out numbers on that just yet). Of the remaining non-ghoul Infected, the bulk are Type II. There are more loup-garou than there are vampires, for instance.

Okay, assuming that 90 out of 100 Infected are ghouls, and 8 or 9 out of the remaining 10 are Jarka-Criscione, that leaves 1% of the Infected to be Type I.

Assuming a population, worldwide, of about 7.14 billion (which I calculated out using some UN and US Census Bureau projections on rapidly declining population growth rates and the known mass die-offs during the VITAS pandemics), that gives us 7,140,000 Infected worldwide. Of that, 6,426,000 are ghouls, and the remaining 714,000 are vampires, loup-garou, etc.

One out of 10,000 Infected being nosferatu, as mentioned in Running Wild, by the way, means there are fewer than 1,000 of those monstrosities worldwide. About a dozen of those HMHVV-Ia victims (maybe) are mutaqua. (The real numbers, by the way, might be worse than Dr. McAllister thought in Running Wild). That 714 comes out of the 71,400 Type I victims in the world.

I don't know that I lowballed the bounties, but I don't think making them much higher, given the rarity, was really warranted.

OOC: I was also asked not to make them too high by my developer.

Posted by: Irion Oct 16 2011, 08:07 AM

@Patrick Goodman
Well, I guess there are still people out there who pay much more for a living test subject.
But still, with this bounties there won't be any bountyhunter...

(The one for guhl is ok)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 16 2011, 02:56 PM

Bounty Hunters in Shadowrun pursue targets other than the Infected.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 16 2011, 06:38 PM

Hey, man, whatever the market will bear. Someone wants to pay that much, let them.

Good thing I wasn't trying to create a lot of bounty hunters, then, isn't it?

Posted by: HentaiZonga Oct 16 2011, 06:42 PM

If you're lucky, enough to pay for the dead rigger storage.

Posted by: Seerow Oct 16 2011, 06:44 PM

I would personally expect the rarity to make them worth -much- more.

But I guess it depends on the reasoning for the bounty. If the reasoning is just to get them out of existence with minimal cost, it's fine. But I'm sure there's people who would love a real vampire to put on display, or experiment on, etc, whether alive or dead, and in those cases the fact that there's under 1000 of them in the entire world makes them hugely valuable.

Posted by: Manunancy Oct 16 2011, 06:50 PM

On intested of those bounties (and probably the main interested from the governement and the corp's side of the fence) is that whenver one of the critters got trashed in the barrens or other crappy area, the locals will cash the bounty and doing so inform teh governemetnthat htere might be an infection problem rahter than just brudning/dumping/whatver teh corpse and let the problem fester unknown.

I a crop of boi=unties starts poking up in one place, then it's time to seriously investigate the situtation with all necessary means.

With that sort of aprroach, the bounties are into a mean of eradication but more of surveillance, to be informed about infected showing up. In that interpreation, hte low bounties works. And keeping them law prevents of proliferation of wanabee hunters more likely to get infected and carry the disease back into 'civlized' areas than to solve the problem.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 16 2011, 07:37 PM

The government is not in the business of hunting down the Infected. Their rarity says that they aren't as much of a threat as, say, bugs, so they aren't worth that much. They're a nuisance; you just don't see them that much. That they're worth up to 15 grand tells you that once they do show, they're worth getting rid of.


Bingo.


And I'm sure those private concerns would be willing to pay a pretty penny for them. That's a private matter, not one for the government (which set the bounties quoted in Running Wild). The government's just not going to pay that much.


Nosferatu are 1 in 10 million metahumans walking the planet. Maybe. The government doesn't consider them on a par with, say, Osama bin Laden, which is what a lot of people here seem to think they're worth.

That's cool. As I said, whatever the market will bear.

But the stuff I was asked to write doesn't reflect the myriad private concerns that might want to have a vampire test subject. They reflect the kinds of bounties the government pays for eradicating a feral hog or some such critter. Vampires pay more than feral hogs, but if you're a bounty hunter out hunting down vampires and nosferatu, you're not going after the government bounties anyway. You're going after private or corporate cash, and that was way beyond my mandate for the RW article.

Now, what might be coming, that's something else, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 16 2011, 07:56 PM

Remember the number of Infected working for/with Tamanous...

Posted by: Seriously Mike Oct 16 2011, 08:18 PM

...in that case, you might get a favor. Or a grudge.

Also, what's the difference between Fomoraig and Fomori, while we're at it?

Posted by: CanRay Oct 16 2011, 08:20 PM

Just don't bring him here. There isn't a sign in my front yard that says "Dead Rigger Storage" because storing Dead Riggers ain't my business!

Posted by: Sengir Oct 16 2011, 08:23 PM

Or they make an example of you, so people know they shouldn't mes with T's customer base and personnel...


Fomori are a metavariant and somewhat easier to look at than the average troll, Fomoraig are Infected and look the opposite.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 16 2011, 08:27 PM

Fomoraig is the retcon name of fomorians, HMHVV-II Infected trolls. They were introduced in SR2, in Paranormal Animals of Europe.

Fomori are a troll metavariant. They're the furry, pretty trolls. They were first introduced, I think, in the SR2 version of the Shadowrun Companion. Fomori are not Infected.

EDIT: Sengir is the ninja.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Oct 16 2011, 11:17 PM

Really, I think the best bet is to be the nosferatu who recruits shadowrunners to collect people. Then you infect them and send the runners back with a handful of Infected to collect the bounty for. You, as the supplier, take 10% of course. If the heat gets close, you vanish off into the sunset and setup shop a few states over.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 16 2011, 11:27 PM

Is that healthy?

Posted by: BishopMcQ Oct 17 2011, 12:39 AM

Tinted windows and it's all good.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 17 2011, 01:38 AM

Additionally, in 4e the infected aren't as really as tough as they used to be

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 01:50 AM

Working on that bit....

Posted by: CanRay Oct 17 2011, 02:06 AM

And if that doesn't send a shiver up your back, then Cyberzombie Drop Bears are the least of your concern.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 02:24 AM

Ray, let's just say that Operation: Desparkle has begun, and leave it at that.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 17 2011, 04:32 AM

Shadowrun is going to invade the Twilight Universe and beat the living drek out of what they call Vampires?

Bella: "I know what you are."
Ozzy: "Say it. Out loud."
Bella: "...Vampire."
Ozzy: "Vampire? Vampires are pussies. I'm the Prince of fucking Darkness!" - Part Of Ozzy's Intro During His Scream Tour

Posted by: Stalag Oct 17 2011, 06:46 AM

Well lets not go overboard... don't forget they're playable now too; so juicing up the NPC's would juice up the PC's as well unless you specifically state they aren't (and then explain why)

Posted by: Shortstraw Oct 17 2011, 11:00 AM

I don't know Mutaqua are pretty nasty.

Posted by: Gerzel Oct 17 2011, 01:58 PM

Not really. Did you see the part of Palin's Alaska where they had her shooting?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 02:32 PM

I'm also working on that bit.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 02:33 PM

I tried.

Posted by: Fortinbras Oct 17 2011, 03:27 PM

This sounds like a neat idea for a run:

The runners get a call from the Texas Rangers(cops, not baseball) with a job to track down and destroy a Nos crime boss who's been Infecting innocents and turning them in for the bounty. Can the runners track this lord of darkness distribution and his unholy wholesalers before they too become products on the shelf?

Also, I call dibs on the phrase "unholy wholesale."

Posted by: Paul Oct 17 2011, 03:31 PM

How does Shadowrun view the process of creating other infected creature's? Is it an intimate process-as it's so often portrayed in popular media? Or no? We don't really make much use of Infected scenarios beyond Ghouls. But then we lived through the introduction of Vampire the Masquerade, and the ascent of Vampires in popular culture-and while it didn't leave the same sort of sour taste that anime did, it's close to being as bad.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Oct 17 2011, 04:07 PM

That was such an awesome tour.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 05:41 PM

Operation: Desparkle is more about raising and firming up the walls between the two universes. A lot. Like, total separation. Forever. I don't like a lot of what's been done with vampires, et al, so I'm working on fixing some of it.

Some will cheer me. Some will despise me. I'm okay with this.


There has to be an immediate, emotional connection for the Infection power to do its thing. This is usually accomplished through abject fear, though it can passion or even the sharing of a really, really good joke that gets them both laughing and enjoying each others' company.

It's widely believed that there has to be an exchange of Infected fluid for Type I HMHVV, even among some of the experts. This is not, in fact, the case, although an exchange typically does take place anyway. It's just not necessary to the Infection power working its magic (if you'll excuse the expression). Is it "intimate" as many sources claim? After a fashion, but it's not an orgy as many popular venues would have it.

That answer your question?

Posted by: Sengir Oct 17 2011, 05:46 PM

Why am I just thinking of hermit and his claims that Infected are the authors' special pets and totally broken?

And add me to the crowd who will despise Patrick, I like them playable.

Posted by: Paul Oct 17 2011, 05:57 PM

Yeah. I pretty much knew what the answer would be. We tend to like our Infected as big bad nasties, so I'm down with making them from a sterner cut.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 06:04 PM

Two things on this:

1. I'm not positive yet that I'll be able to nix playable Infected, much as I'd like to. That negotiation is ongoing.

2. There's a perfectly serviceable game for playing vampires already. It's called Vampire. We don't need playable vampires in Shadowrun, in my opinion.

Posted by: Bigity Oct 17 2011, 06:29 PM

While you are rewriting stuff you don't like, go ahead and write Ryan Mercury out of the game as well, or is only stuff you don't like that could possibly need to be changed or ignored?

Posted by: Paul Oct 17 2011, 06:31 PM

Not to slow your roll Bigity, but just how would you handle having a say in the game? You'd push my agenda as hard as your own? I mean let's be real here. I may agree or disagree with some of the people writing the game, and their choices-but let's not be a dick about it.

Posted by: Bigity Oct 17 2011, 06:40 PM

It's more a question of why it's apparently not ok for someone to ignore the trilogy of novels that provides the 'canon' resolution/cause of D's death at their table, but ok to use a position as a freelancer to change something he dislikes.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 17 2011, 07:28 PM

And I'd say you've got the cart before the horse: There are dozens of games without vampires and ghouls for you to peruse. So why insist on changing SR if you don't like what has been part of the setting since Bug City or earlier?

Posted by: Irion Oct 17 2011, 08:20 PM

I think everyone has the right to push his or her own agenda. Thats what everybody does anyway.

There are people who think magic should be weaker, there are the once who think it should stay like it is and there are people who think magic should be different altogether.

You can do the same with Ware or the matrix or basicly anything in PnP.

So yeah, there are people who want Shadowrun more CyberPunk and there are the once who want it mor Fantasy and there are the once who want it more Buffy or more Blade style or anything in between.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 17 2011, 08:47 PM

Don't want to get rid of them from the setting. I rather like them in the setting. I don't believe they have a place as playable races, though, and I think the notion of "Infected rights" is ludicrous on the face of it.

I want them to be a part of the setting...and I believe they should be monsters, straight up no chaser. Scary ones.

Now, like I said, some will love me for this and some will despise me. You'll despise me, Sengir, and I'm okay with that. At the end of the day, if someone doesn't hate something I've done, then it probably wasn't worth doing.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 17 2011, 10:32 PM

I would say the same for just about all of the "alternative character concepts" in Runner's Companion... about the only one's I'd keep would be the meta-type variations and even those are a bit sketchy in spots.

Now, while you're at - can you speak to whoever wrote up the rules on spirits and have them crank back their power and/or availability about a hundred notches? Spirits are many groups "instant win" button (and sometimes, instant death)

Posted by: CanRay Oct 17 2011, 11:56 PM

They're just people. That eat other people. Remember that.

If the Dragon Lotto about making artificial HMHVV-Food had been won, I could see some people trying to have the "Hug A Ghoul" thing going, but it hasn't at all.

They should be like Dragons in my mind, unplayable. When used as NPCs, they should be creepy at best (Like the Vampire PI that Argent dealt with in "Run Hard, Die Fast") all the way to Total Monster that would give Alice Cooper (The character, not the man) nightmares.

Which isn't that bad an idea, a third Nightmare album would ROCK!

Posted by: ggodo Oct 18 2011, 12:21 AM

Toss me in the pile of Anti-Infected rights, but I'm also a GM that bans a lot of the alternate character types. Not a fan of how AI and Spirits were handled, and a firm believer that I don't want to have to deal with Vampires and the playability issues they bring up. I mean, What happens when the team meets their first mage? He assenses the vampire and calls for Tons o' backup? That's going to be too much of a hassle for everybody. I'm a little more forgiving on Drakes, mostly because they can pass as human and tend to be a BP sink for little benefit. Plus, I like the idea of getting hunted by dragons for existing. Short of playing a monsters campaign I don't need playable infected. If I were doing a monster campaign you can bet DeVries would feature prominently. Maybe I'm too vindictive on some things, but I'm not allowing much of Runner's Companion.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 12:23 AM

If you're running a Monster's Campaign, I call dibs on Wolfman.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 18 2011, 12:59 AM

Only stuff that I don't like which bothers me, actually, is stuff that I will try to change. Ryan Mercury doesn't particularly bother me, so even though I don't particularly like him, I'm not going to try and do anything about him.


It's absolutely okay to ignore them, as I said over in the thread you're referencing on the official forums. Where you and I seem to have some difference is that you insist on ignoring them and saying they never happened, and then insist that you're talking about the canon SR universe. You aren't. As soon as you say that they didn't happen, you're talkling about a parallel universe...and that's perfectly okay, especially at your own table. Just don't try to pass it off as the canon universe. It's not.

And "using a position as a freelancer to change something he dislikes" is actually one of the ways to become a freelancer in the first place, and a not-insignificant reason for wanting to do so. It's sure not the money. But wanting to correct a perceived problem was part of why I got involved in trying to write for SR to begin with, and yes, it's something I'm trying to do now. And I'm not apologizing for it.

One of these weekends, we need to arrange to meet over at Hatter's and try to actually talk this out instead of flinging things on forums. I'm probably not nearly the asshole you think I am.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 01:02 AM

Don't like the product? Try to write better product and get it published.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 18 2011, 02:02 AM

The former is easier than the latter (though self publishing is getting easier every year)

Posted by: Bigity Oct 18 2011, 02:04 AM

I don't write. Technical documents/test cases/instructions sure. Coherent sentences otherwise? My three kids give me enough frustration for free I don't need to go looking for more thanks.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 02:08 AM

Thus the word "Try" being right in front. But back when fan websites were big rather than forum, that wasn't too hard a thing. Just write up your stuff and put it up on the free space your ISP gave you. Or Geocities. Or where ever else you could get free space. Harder to do now. And there lies the other problem. Not many people are able to write/draw and so on.

I mean, hell, imagine a hack like me trying something professionally?

Posted by: Bigity Oct 18 2011, 02:13 AM

There's not like this brooding dislike or anything That particular subject happens to be my biggest irritation in SR I guess.

And I happen to disagree that novels represent canon, because there are many instances of it not be, but that's for another thread sometime.

And I'll meet ya at Hatter's anytime, I actually haven't been in there but once since moving. My wife will kill me if I wander out there with a quarter of the crap I wanted after being in there for 20 minutes the first time.

Posted by: Gerzel Oct 18 2011, 03:24 AM

Not many? What exactly are you doing on this forum to communicate?

There are three things you must do to become a writer.

1. Write.
2. Write.
3. Write.

Posted by: ggodo Oct 18 2011, 03:29 AM

Novels are canon when canon says they're canon, and even then, I will ignore it at my table if I deem it too painful. One big problem with the novels is that they tend to break in-universe rules on occasion, and that's not counting Dirk randomly getting an arm.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 03:35 AM

http://canray.deviantart.com/gallery/

Maybe they were simflicks like "Dead Air"?

Posted by: ggodo Oct 18 2011, 03:59 AM

What a tweest!

Posted by: Paul Oct 18 2011, 11:21 AM

For my own preferences I assume if it's written and published it's cannon. However I feel no obligation to cannon, which means at my table if you encounter a Great Dragon you're dead. Period. I don't care what the stats are, I don't care why, I don't care what your counter argument is-it just is. At my table manga and anime based characters are pretty much taboo. At my table you'll never run into an established and published NPC. I just don't like them. And I can do all of this because no one's going to show up at my table, or on my doorstep to tell me how wrong I am. And as long as my players keep showing up-I'm good!

Posted by: Sengir Oct 18 2011, 02:01 PM

Maybe you do, but Infected rights are part and parcel of the setting and writing them out would be like throwing away the bugs. And since the shadows make an ideal harbor for Infected (while conveniently providing feeding opportunities for the HMHVV I variants), it also makes sense to have them as playable races.


...because scary paranormal threads are in short supply?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 18 2011, 04:12 PM

Things change, Sengir. People, places, perceptions, legislation. They change. And the shadows being a harbor for the Infected makes it a heck of a lot easier for me to want to get rid of "Infected rights." Now they'll have a place to go and a reason to run the shadows if I can't get rid of PC Infected.

However: The Infected eat people. Giving them rights to eat other people is ludicrous. They're a late addition to the setting (except for ghoul rights, which goes back a ways, but vampire rights is as far back as Runner's Companion, and was as dumb an idea then as it is now, my personal feelings and respect for Bobby and Peter notwithstanding), and they can go away as easily as they were added. It just takes leverage.

I am working on levers in my copious unstructured free time.

I will say it over and over again: You don't have to like it. Your not liking it will in no way affect my attempting to do it. Odds are I will not get everything I want to do in this endeavor, but I'm going to make the most of the changes I do get to make.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Oct 18 2011, 04:25 PM

So, the Infected eat people. More exactly, Essence. And Augmentation introduced Essence regaining therapy (involving handwavium). Is it just me, or did someone get carried away inventing this crap to create a potential justification for that one?

Posted by: Paul Oct 18 2011, 04:29 PM

That's always the hard part of multiple hands at the rudder. The ship changes course all too often.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 18 2011, 04:37 PM

Yeah, I've gotta do something about that, too, now that you mention it. Ah, well, one thing at a time. Maybe it causes cancer, like program carriers did back in the day....

Oh, and not all of them eat Essence. Some of them, most of them, actually subsist on metahuman flesh as well.


You ain't just whistling "Dixie" there....

Posted by: Manunancy Oct 18 2011, 05:23 PM

Considering the price tag and time constraints of those therapies, only a very marginal fraction of the infected would be able to take advantage of it and say 'see I don't harm anyone with my feeding'. Which means that 99% of them will will be stuck with the 'I kill peoples to feed' tag. Worse, a siginficant fraction of the infected are basically little-to-no-brained maneaters that will never look good on an 'infected rights' poster, not matter how much spin doctoring is applied.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 18 2011, 07:53 PM

Ooooooh, posters! I gotta remember to put posters in some of this stuff....

Posted by: CanRay Oct 18 2011, 10:47 PM

http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/3/3d/Swamp_Ghoul.png

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 03:44 AM

+1 Karma!

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 04:17 AM

Well - not all of them do. Those that require blood or flesh aren't required to kill to get it, it just has to be from a metahuman. As far as Essence needs go, base loss is 1 point a month... that's not going to kill any "essence source" unless they're all cybered up.... and given the mystique surrounding some of those infected it's reasonable to believe they'd be able to find plenty of willing "victims" (even discounting the use of influence and alter memory).

That's not to say I think "Infected Rights" is terribly reasonable... people as a whole are easily frightened and swayed to prejudice so anyone seen as having a "infectious disease" that requires the victims to "feed on human flesh/blood" is going to get them quarantined at the very least... especially the ones who can infect you just by touching you (though I think writing it that way was a bit extreme... realistically HMHVV II and III would spread through every major city like wildfire)

My issue with having them as playable characters is that Regeneration is somewhat unbalancing and, while they may be drawn to the shadows, who's honestly going to want to hire them or even run with them barring other infected? Remember the degree of fear and prejudice against people with AIDS back in the 90's? Now imagine if those AIDS victims had to feed on other people (even just a little) to survive.... Vampire "mystique" might get you a hopeful goth here and there to keep your essence up but it isn't going to land you a job.

And, of course, as you said... there's already a game where you can play a vampire. I suspect the resurgence in interest in the genre is what triggered them being added as playable in the first place.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 19 2011, 04:37 AM

OK, the Infected don't eat people... THEY JUST EAT PEOPLE'S SOULS!

That's going to look well on the "Hug A Windigo" posters.

Posted by: ggodo Oct 19 2011, 06:55 AM

One more and I can get a specialty!
Moving back to topic, I can see Ghoul rights. They don't essence leech and don't need to kill to feed. The non-feral ghouls are people. I can easily see that bill not getting passed at all. Try to sell the image of an upstanding ghoul and humanis shows you a warehouse full of ferals. You ain't winning that fight.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 19 2011, 10:11 AM

I could see it as a "sick people are people too" kind of thing, where they're campaigning for humane treatment until a cure can be found. But being infected isn't "equal" in the sense that it's "okay" to be infected; just like people don't think that being disabled is a good thing, even though they support humane treatment of disabled people.

That, of course, is the nicest you can hope for: being considered a victim of a disease. If there was a cure, only wackos would want to remain a ghoul, and society might not tolerate that.

Vampires face tricky odds. Since they don't look quite as much like they're suffering, it's harder to be sympathetic. On the other hand, they can be somewhat glamorous, like gangsters or mob bosses - rationally, we know they're bad for society, but a lot of people think they're cool.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Oct 19 2011, 10:38 AM

Oh yeah, CAS Humanis Policlub at its finest.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 19 2011, 12:30 PM

Dead people. So what?


What vampire rights? In some (unspecified) countries vampires may now register themselves for constant monitoring in exchange for not getting shot on sight. In other words, probably some weirdo countries like Amazonia or Yakut allow vampiric Infected who manage to get by without killing people to live, and will monitor them closely to make sure they stick to the rules...


And I will nevertheless voice my criticism if you bring it up here. Or do you expect only claqueurs?

Posted by: Paul Oct 19 2011, 12:46 PM

That's kind of a blanket answer, and I'm not sure an entirely accurate one. Sure some of the Infected probably consume essence, flesh, blood or what ever in a civilized fashion. But I can't imagine in the Dystopian World as presented that there isn't a significant number that don't do that.

Now the rest of this is not specifically directed at Sengir, but is inspired by some of his comments:

Now, for the record, I'm not entirely in agreement with Patrick's position. I do think that as presented the Infected are kind of a mixed bag. I do not like removing options from the game-I think you should be able to play a Ghoul, maybe even a Vampire. But I think there should be real world style consequences for doing so. One of the things Shadowrun, and it's players, do a terrible job of in my opinion is giving reasoning as to why a team of pink mohawked criminals, with an ork who looks like a 15 year old dressed up as 75 year old cartoon character, and their buddy who carries his sword everywhere get hired by anyone to do anything.

I get why the punk aspect is there. I get the idea of individualism, and rugged assertive personalities. But frankly a lot of people who spend an awful lot of time seriously debating a lot of other things seem really willing just to hand wave that sort of thing. As someone who works in Law Enforcement, with a group of players who also work in the field, or work in professional fields that require a certain attire I get my views can be a little biased.

But yeah, I agree that sometimes the various metavariants and optional stuff is seen as too common place. How many hundreds of whacked out nut job characters have we all seen on this site? Now, absolutely I'd agree it's their table. They do what they see as fun. But yeah for my part I'd welcome some house cleaning-yeah there a lot of magical threats, but it seems like everyone here just assumes every citizen of the Sixth World logs onto Shadowland every day, which to me cheapens the game.

So beat on me if you have to, but I for one welcome some restrictions-but I do want those restrictions to be done in an exciting fashion. A clear and internally consistent fashion.

And of course the good news is if we don't like it, we won't use it. At my table you'd be pretty hard pressed to make a fringe character like a Vampire or Strawberry Shortcake Ork and live that long. And that's how we like it. Maybe at your table, or someone else's it's different.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 19 2011, 02:06 PM

Eh. The infected are just that, Infected.

Normally if you have a virulent disease, you quarantine the victims.

You don't let them roam free and allow them un-infected people flesh to eat.



-k

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 19 2011, 02:26 PM

That's it exactly. Patients can ask for such rights as a clean hospital bed, but a right to infect other people or eat them isn't going to happen.

Never mind this "second generation not infectious" nonsense. Are we really going to risk public health with that? Who knows, it might become infectious again in conjunction with the flu.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 05:25 PM

Well, there's always Asamando... the Infected country

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 05:53 PM

Depending on the fluff (or even certain rules), outlandish looking eye-catching people are so common they pass by unnoticed. Not really a view of the SR world I'm fond of but I can see some tables adopting it. As to who would hire them... in my view that would be the Fixer who they know from (insert back story here). I've never understood all this fluff about characters meeting the Johnson... the whole point of hiring a shadow runner is they are deniable anonymous assets. Meeting them (especially in the 6th world) would seem to nullify your reason for using them.

Personally I see shadow runners as somewhere between the characters from the TV show Leverage and the characters from the movie The Expendables.
Well, to be a little fair to the wacked out nutjobs... the runners are supposed to be the protagonists of the story; so as a singular metavariant or some other "alternative" (with a convincing back story to explain how they ended up running the shadows in whatever base city your campaign is in) then I'd say it fits. Now, if you were running in Seattle and your GM started throwing armies of Cyclops, Giants, and Minotaur at you then yea - that's abusing it. A table with a single Oni who fled to Seattle as a boy to escape the Yakuza who had killed his parents... that's fine. It seems "all too common" to us because we see characters from multiple tables... if this was an MMO, where all tables were part of one contiguous world, then I'd agree. Since each table is a unique version of the SR world unto itself then really they're fine.

Posted by: Paul Oct 19 2011, 05:58 PM

Absolutely, but even those seem marginal to me. But then this is a personal preference thing-and I'd say our views aren't so different.



Agreed. We actually do just what you mentioned. The Fixer maintains a stable of employees. it's rare for my players to meet a Johnson. I think I get why it was built that way, a story telling technique.



If we keep agreeing we can't have an internet fight damn it!



Crap we still agree. Well so be it.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 19 2011, 06:01 PM

http://tacticalhamster.deviantart.com/art/Shortcake-262957239

Posted by: Paul Oct 19 2011, 06:04 PM

Do I start alphabetically? Or do I go in the order of importance?

In all seriousness at their table? Nothing. And I appreciate the gal or guy who plays that character having a good sense of humor about it all.

Now back to my semi sarcastic answers: At my own table we'd laugh the player away from the table, and heap upon them scorn. Assuming the other players didn't straight up murder some character like this. (We wouldn't laugh. Seriously. But yeah I'm pretty sure they'd murder this character almost as fast as she showed up.)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 19 2011, 06:07 PM

How rude...
But a bullet to the back of the head would solve the problem quite nicely.

Posted by: Paul Oct 19 2011, 06:11 PM

Remind me sometime to relay a story about a player who's character was a serial killer. That was a great arc...for those that lived...

Posted by: Sengir Oct 19 2011, 06:14 PM

Ghouls are not necessarily the ones vampires can turn to. Persecuted groups often kick down on others with similar problems, so maybe the GLL actually lobbies for a tougher stance on everything which has to drain living people. Given the eugenic leanings of their queen, Asamando seems even more likely to act like that.

Posted by: Paul Oct 19 2011, 06:15 PM

I agree with this.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 07:16 PM

That's a good point... though Vampires and Nosferatu (and maybe Banshee) have an entire subculture of non-infected dedicated to their worship and look "nearly identical to regular humans." to boot so as long as they keep it to themselves (and don't get assensed) I suspect they can get along living in the shadows without too much difficulty.

The other infected however... I'd see them as near unplayable since they are easily spotted visually just going out in public. With the possible exception of Bandernatchii being all invisible and what-not.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 19 2011, 08:54 PM

An invisible (aka "it could be everyone") threat, a youth subculture which can be connected to that, it keeps getting better

GLL Spokesman: I have here in my hand a list of individuals in the State Department who are known to be secretly part of the vampire culture, yet continue to work there and shape its policy. Furthermore, I want to remind you that the head of the Ghoul Extermination League has not responded to repeated requests to prove that he was born 50 years ago and is not a 200 years old vampire from Kenya. Where is the birth certificate?


Cybereyes, Minor Biosculpting, Clean Metabolism bioware and you look perfectly fine. Not on the astral, but that is a problem many runners suffer from.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 09:13 PM

How's that?

Posted by: Sengir Oct 19 2011, 09:36 PM

Assensing detects cyber...

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Oct 19 2011, 09:43 PM

And most other things, depending on the # of hits.

Posted by: Stalag Oct 19 2011, 10:02 PM

I wouldn't consider having your cyber assenssed (or rather, lack of aura in those spots) necessarily a problem. It won't tell them what the cyber is, just that you have something there. Lots of people have cyber...

Posted by: Paul Oct 20 2011, 12:39 AM

Meh. I'd say that you could tell a lot of things from location, and size. (Several of the novels make reference to just this sort of thing) And after a while experience would likely help too.

Posted by: Loch Oct 20 2011, 12:58 AM

It specifically tells you the presence (and location, where applicable) of cyberware/bioware/gene treatments/nanoware, all dependent on how many hits you roll on the assensing test. I think that seems to be a lot more information than just "lack of aura in X/Y/Z/ body part).

Posted by: Paul Oct 20 2011, 01:07 AM

Yeah I'd give a player a break on this one. We should start a side thread for that. Let's get back to selling the undead!

Posted by: Sengir Oct 20 2011, 09:05 AM

Sure, but emotional and health conditions usually are not criminal. The assorted combat cyberware each sam hauls around is.

On a related note, what kind of threshold do you require to assense that somebody is Infected? "A general diagnosis for any maladies (diseases or toxins) the subject suffers" (3 hits), or something more/less obvious?

Posted by: Stalag Oct 20 2011, 05:00 PM

Well given Infection re-writes their DNA and re-configures the subject internally and, usually externally I'd say it should either be a single hit or just blatantly obvious.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Oct 21 2011, 02:07 AM

Late to the party but Desparkle the drek out of them. The way infected are treated in 4th edition is the one part of the fluff that gets under my skin the most and makes me chew nails. I've made a couple of screaming threads over it already.

Oh, and the VtR is no where near as good as VtM. Just saying.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 21 2011, 03:33 AM

Can't disagree more. VtM is a Great Game, But VtR is so much better.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 21 2011, 03:36 AM

Only one way to solve this. Rock-Paper-Scissors!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 21 2011, 03:41 PM

Spock-Bomb?

Posted by: Sengir Oct 22 2011, 09:27 AM

Detecting DNA changes is higher up the difficulty scale, not lower

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 22 2011, 09:41 AM

I'd say 1-2 hits shows you there's something "wrong", 3-4 that it's some kind of energy-parasite, and higher than that gives you enough accuracy to identify what flavor of vampire you're dealing with (provided you're knowledgeable about vampires, of course).

Posted by: Loch Oct 22 2011, 03:27 PM

Well this is getting a bit off track again, but it only takes a single hit on the Assensing test to know whether you're dealing with an awakened or mundane being. Two hits gets you the nature of a specific awakened subject (what type of spirit/spell you're looking at are the examples given in SR4A). I would argue that since all Infected are awakened creatures, you need one hit to separate them in a crowd, and two hits will tell you exactly what kind of creeper you're looking at.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 22 2011, 04:04 PM

This ^^^^^