Printable Version of Topic
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Arnisadors and Riposteurs
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 20 2011, 09:17 AM
The different Martial Arts maneuvers presented in Arsenal can have some great synergy together. I have been experimenting with different gear and arts builds that take advantage of these combinations to be devastating in close combat. I'll assume attributes and skill ratings of 5, but dedicated builds would probably have at least 6~7 for each. I am also not counting additional modifiers like specializations and tacnets (but you should get them).
Weapons-wise, there are three branches: Dual Melee, Dual Guns, and Pirate Style. Dual Melee can take advantage of things like the Counterstrike adept power and only has to focus on a single skill. Dual Guns can be effective at any range and can deal much more damage (potentially), but requires Ambidexterity, not just Offhand Training, to be effective and forces you to diverge your skills. Pirate Style, wielding a gun in your primary hand and a melee weapon in your offhand, is a blend of the two. You could also wield a two-handed weapon or a single weapon in both hands if you really wanted to, of course, but that's not the point of these builds.
Feelin' Lucky
[ Spoiler ]
Arts: Arnis de Mano 2 (+1 Clubs DV, Damaging Disarm)
Maneuvers: Disarm, Riposte, Two-Weapon Style
Weapons:
- Ruger Super Warhawk ¥830
+Personalized Grip
+Melee Hardening
+Red Dot Sight
+EX Explosive Rounds x6 - Ruger Super Warhawk ¥930
+Personalized Grip
+Melee Hardening
+Red Dot Sight
+EX Explosive Rounds x6
Additional: Ambidexterity
Combat: Disarm opponent (Reaction 5 + Clubs 5 + Clubs 5 Personalized Grip 1 - Called Shot 4 = 12 Dice; 5P DV) while striking with other weapon (Agility 5 + Clubs 5 + Personalized Grip 1 = 11 dice; 5P DV) and follow with a Dual Single Shot Riposte ((Agility 5 + Automatics 5)/2 + Red Dot Sight 1 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 = 5 dice; 7P AP -1; (Agility 5 + Automatics 5)/2 + Red Dot Sight 1 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 = 5 dice; 7P AP -1)
[ Spoiler ]
Arts: Arnis de Mano 2 (+1 Clubs DV, Damaging Disarm)
Maneuvers: Disarm, Riposte, Two-Weapon Style
Weapons:
- Ruger Super Warhawk ¥1,110
+Personalized Grip
+Melee Hardening
+Smartgun System (External)
+EX Explosive Rounds x6 - Mace ¥220
+Personalized Grip
Combat: Disarm opponent (Reaction 5 + Clubs 5 + Clubs 5 Personalized Grip 1 - Called Shot 4 = 12 Dice; 7P) while striking with other weapon (Agility 5 + Clubs 5 + Personalized Grip 1 = 11 dice; 4P) and follow with a Single Shot Riposte (Agility 5 + Pistols 5 + Smartlink 2 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 = 11 dice; 7P AP -3)
[ Spoiler ]
Arts: Arnis de Mano 2 (+1 Clubs DV, Damaging Disarm)
Maneuvers: Disarm, Riposte, Two-Weapon Style, Offhand Training
Weapons:
- Ingram SuperMach 100 (60 round) ¥2,825
+Gas Vent 3
+Personalized Grip
+Underbarrel Weight
+Melee Hardening
+Smartgun System (External)
+EX Explosive Rounds x60 - Mace ¥220
+Personalized Grip
Combat: Disarm opponent (Reaction 5 + Clubs 5 + Clubs 5 Personalized Grip 1 - Called Shot 4 = 12 Dice; 7P) while striking with other weapon (Agility 5 + Clubs 5 + Personalized Grip 1 = 11 dice; 5P) and follow with a Full Burst Riposte (Agility 5 + Automatics 5 + Smartlink 2 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 - Recoil 2 = 9 dice; 5P AP -1 (Narrow Burst 16P AP -1))
[ Spoiler ]
Arts: Arnis de Mano 2 (+1 Clubs DV, Damaging Disarm)
Maneuvers: Disarm, Riposte, Two-Weapon Style
Weapons:
- Ingram SuperMach 100 (60 round) ¥2,625
+Gas Vent 3
+Personalized Grip
+Underbarrel Weight
+Melee Hardening
+Red Dot Sight
+EX Explosive Rounds x60 - Ingram SuperMach 100 (60 round) ¥2,625
+Gas Vent 3
+Personalized Grip
+Underbarrel Weight
+Melee Hardening
+Red Dot Sight
+EX Explosive Rounds x60
Additional: Ambidexterity
Combat: Disarm opponent (Reaction 5 + Clubs 5 + Clubs 5 Personalized Grip 1 - Called Shot 4 = 12 Dice; 5P) while striking with other weapon (Agility 5 + Clubs 5 + Personalized Grip 1 = 11 dice; 5P) and follow with a dual Full Burst Riposte ((Agility 5 + Automatics 5)/2 + Red Dot Sight 1 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 - Recoil 2 = 3 dice; 5P AP -1 (Narrow Burst 16P AP -1); (Agility 5 + Automatics 5)/2 + Red Dot Sight 1 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 - Recoil 4 = 1 dice; 5P AP -1 (Narrow Burst 16P AP -1))
[ Spoiler ]
Arts: Arnis de Mano 2 (+1 Clubs DV, Damaging Disarm)
Maneuvers: Disarm, Riposte, Two-Weapon Style, Offhand Training
Weapons:
- Ingram Smartgun X ¥16,370
+Personalized Grip
+Melee Hardening
+Barrel Reduction
+Chameleon Coating
+Red Dot Sight
+Plasteel Components 3
+Hi-C Plastic Rounds x32 - Ingram Smartgun X ¥16,370
+Personalized Grip
+Melee Hardening
+Barrel Reduction
+Chameleon Coating
+Red Dot Sight
+Plasteel Components 3
+Hi-C Plastic Rounds x32
Additional: Ambidexterity, Restricted Gear 2
Combat: Disarm opponent (Reaction 5 + Clubs 5 + Clubs 5 Personalized Grip 1 - Called Shot 4 = 12 Dice; 5P) while striking with other weapon (Agility 5 + Clubs 5 + Personalized Grip 1 = 11 dice; 5P) and follow with a Dual Short Burst Riposte ((Agility 5 + Automatics 5)/2 + Red Dot Sight 1 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 = 5 dice; 5P (Narrow Burst 7P); (Agility 5 + Automatics 5)/2 + Red Dot Sight 1 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 = 5 dice; 5P (Narrow Burst 7P))
[ Spoiler ]
Arts: Arnis de Mano 2 (+1 Clubs DV, Damaging Disarm)
Maneuvers: Disarm, Riposte, Two-Weapon Style, Offhand Training
Weapons:
- FN P93 Praetor ¥15,450
+Personalized Grip
+Melee Hardening
+Smartgun System, Internal
+Gas Vent 3
+Plasteel Components 3
+Hi-C Plastic Rounds x50 - Extendable Baton ¥1,050
+Personalized Grip
+Plasteel Components 3
Additional: Restricted Gear 2
Combat: Disarm opponent (Reaction 5 + Clubs 5 + Clubs 5 Personalized Grip 1 - Called Shot 4 = 12 Dice; 5P) while striking with other weapon (Agility 5 + Clubs 5 + Personalized Grip 1 = 11 dice; 5P) and follow with a Full Burst Riposte (Agility 5 + Automatics 5 + Smartlink 2 + Point-Blank 2 - Attacker In Melee Combat 3 - Recoil 3 = 8 dice; 5P (Narrow Burst 14P))
That's just a few of the options available to Dual Guns and Pirate Style users. As you can see, the dice pools can become a little strained, but there are plenty of ways to optimize and get modifiers for these tests. Look into "unorthodox" things like Synch or Swift and Terrible for some more useful bonuses.
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 21 2011, 12:19 AM
There's a few interesting things you can do when you throw magic into the mix.
Samurai Spirit
[ Spoiler ]
This requires Permission on the GM's behalf, as Martial Arts aren't usually on the list of qualities a spirit may take. Even if it makes sense for a warrior-type Guardian spirit or whatever
Arts: Anything that adds to unarmed DV: Boxing, Karate, Kung fu, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, Wildcat
Spirit Powers: Natural Weapon(looks like sword?). Implications: Count as Unarmed Attack. Movement. Implications: lets you Powerwalk to melee range, letting you save your Free Action for Called Shots or Interceptions instead of Running/Charging. Energy aura. Implications: +4dv, ap half, automatic damage back to attackers
Maneuvers: Kick attack(swords have reach, this simulates that)
So, a force 6 spirit has the potential to push their 6dv natural weapon to 9 through martial arts, and 13 with energy aura. One net hit on the attack makes that 14 DV base. Not bad at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvUARhM7jrg [ Spoiler ]
Powers: Nerve Strike
Arts:
Maneuvers: Disorient, Setup, Finishing Move. Kick attack can give you reach, and thus a -1 penalty to the defender if they have no reach.
Tactics: Declare a nerve strike attack and use all your maneuvers, and immediately follow up with a finishing move. You don't care about dealing damage, only net hits. A hit with disorient lands your opponent with a -2 dice pool penalty to everything, nerve strike reduces Reaction, and thus their defense pool as well. Assuming 3 net hits, the defender gets -5 to defend against your next attack, while you get 3 more dice with setup. This method can quickly bring enemies to 0 reaction, paralyzing them. The Touch Attack modifier may also be a way of getting extra dice on the attack, stacking the odds even more in your favor.
Interception-Trolling [ Spoiler ]
Arts: Any
Adept Powers: Counterstrike, Combat Sense
Maneuvers: Evasion, Riposte
Tactics: Review Free actions options for Delayed Actions. You may interject actions in other people's action phases, and running is a free action. The idea here is to get stuck in melee, and then run past someone or try to disengage, thus giving them an opportunity to try to stop you with an Interception Attack. You WANT then to try to hit you - because you get a bunch of bonus dice to defend from Running and from Interception, which Adept Counterstrike turns into bonus dice on your Riposte. This can let you cockblock an enemies turn outfrom under them, essentially.
If they DONT go for an interception, then you put yourself into an advantagous position: Behind cover, in melee to give a shooter a dice pool penalty, around the corner, etc.
Bonus: If you have the edge in IP against your foes, you can afford to defend against their Interception attack with a Block or Parry + Full Defense Gymnastics Dodge for maximum turnaround on your Counterstrike bonus dice. More Dice = more hits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ZHWSEABWE&t=1m59s [ Spoiler ]
Arts: Tae Kwon Do ( Charging, Multiple Targets,), any source of Reach
Maneuvers: Finishing Move, Multi-strike, Herding
Tactics: This involves getting as many bonuses to the attack Tests as possible. While multistrike may SEEM useless, with proper bonuses to the TEST, and not the SKILL(so they are applied AFTER the split) it becomes a way to get a free secondary attack on another target. The Kung Fu multi-attack bonus is excellent for this, as it applies to all multi attacks you make. You get +3 for the charge, 2 for a specialty(depending on whether you follow the outdated contradictory faq, or the 4a rulebook), +1 for a personalized grip, and maybe some for superior reach. That is +4 to +6 on each secondary attack AFTER the split. So if you charge into a crowd, suddenly, splitting one die from your pool to each secondary target looks a lot better, especially if you have Surprise so they can't defend.
All you need is to land one hit, so you can trigger finishing move. Since Finishing Move is a melee attack, you can use the usual options on it. So..... you split your dice and hit your opponent and all his friends AGAIN.
You can also use this technique with Herding to hit someone, use Herding to move them over to their friends, follow after them(remeber, the minimum distance to Charge is 2 meters, and herding is 1 meter per net hit.), and then
Weapons: Personalized Grips, Relevant Melee Specialization. Bonus: Synch or Sideways
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Uzi [ Spoiler ]
Art: Any, but bonuses to blocks and parries are good.
Maneuvers: Riposte, Herding, Finishing Move
Weapons: Any FA or Suppressive Fire capable weapon
Tactics: This one is simple, and is best used with Pirate Style - so you have a gun. Finishing Move requires that you make a melee attack. Riposte does not, you only need parry or block a melee attack to trigger it. Position yourself so that you are in melee with an opponent, with other enemies behind him. Let him attack, then Parry-Riposte with Suppressive Fire from an automatic weapon, showering multiple opponents with a delicious multitarget cone of damage. Use Herding on your own attacks during your turn to setup a cone of enemies that may be affected all at once if necessary. If you're feelng ballsy, you can combine this with a Quickdraw, though you will probably need the Iajutsu maneuver to whip out a machine pistol. Be wary of shooting in melee penalties.
Upping the Ante: Suppressive Fire is special in that it lasts until the shooters next Action Phase, and it hits anyone moving into or OUT OF the area.(4a 145). Therefore, you get better mileage out of it by burning through your actions for the combat turn with lots of Interrupt Actions. Herding doesn't require a melee strike, only a 'successful attack', so you can literally use it to pin enemies down and keep them in the cone of bullets or make them dance for you, but at the expense of doing damage. It actually gets MORE powerful against opponents with multiple IPs, as they risk getting hit on each of their turns. Its also a great, if expensive thing to do with Stick and Shock rounds because it has the potential to force a lot of 'fall over and twitch' tests due to Electricty Damage.
Throw is more useful than you think: Sidestep throw and counter-charge [ Spoiler ]
Art: Bonuses to blocks and parries help a bunch, as does having a high initiative. Gimmic tactic for Carromeleg
Maneuvers: Throw, Finishing Move
Tactics: If you successfully block or parry an attack, and winning an opposed strength+unarmed combat lets you throw/move an enemy AND make them prone. The prone is big deal, because standing up is a Simple Action, and a melee attack is complex, so you can't do both in one turn. Much like riposte or finishing move, it uses up your next action. Best if you have a high passive defense, so you don't have to use a Full Parry, which would take up ANOTHER action.
Combined with Recieving the Charge and taunting someone to attack/charge you, you can cockblock someone's attack against you and force them to waste actions.
If you get at least two net hits on the throw, you've put your opponent at minimum charge distance. This is especailly good if you haven't used your Free Action, due to how delayed actions work.(you also need to have higher initiative, which you probably do, if you were going to recieve the charge) You can Throw your opponents to at least two meters away, and then hit them with a Finishing Move using your Unused free action to Charge in. This lets you claim sweet sweet Prone AND charge bonuses on the attack.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 21 2011, 02:00 AM
Ha! I think 'take advantage of' is exactly the right description here, but I'll bet you had fun assembling these. 
Posted by: ggodo Oct 21 2011, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 20 2011, 07:00 PM)
Ha! I think 'take advantage of' is exactly the right description here, but I'll bet you had fun assembling these.
We martial arts fans have to succeed somehow.
Posted by: Caadium Oct 21 2011, 04:45 PM
Unless I'm reading something wrong, there is a slight problem with the Interception-Trolling idea. Specifically, the end where you discuss using a Full Defense tactic because Counterstrike can no longer be used when you do that.
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 21 2011, 05:47 PM
Nice catch.
however, full parry still works
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 12:16 AM
Those are some awesome builds, Udoshi. Nerve Strike adept in particular is nice because you don't need Strength for a takedown and requires no weapons. Great for all infiltrator adepts. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Uzi is a good addition to any pirate style user who are interested in fighting multiple opponents.
Posted by: Makki Oct 22 2011, 06:02 AM
Art: Arnis de Mano
Maneuver: Two Weapon Style, optionally: Off-Hand Training, Riposte
Weapon: Dual Sai
Tactics: If the sai-wielding character successfully uses Full parry to block an attack (see p. 151, SR4), on his next melee attack he may use the Called Shots rule to disarm his opponent (p. 150, SR4) without receiving the –4 modifier.. So with the maneuver you are always on full defense. Whenever you block and you most likely do, you can then disarm AND hurt the attacker.
get crazy with an Adept with improved ability, counterstrike and weapon foci.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 06:37 AM
The sai create an interesting alternative. Basically, you can use Two Weapon style to parry and attack, and then use Finishing Move to disarm and damage the opponent without the modifier. This is also one instance where Multi-Strike could be useful. However, the sai suffer from being an Exotic Weapon and therefore lose out on some potential modifiers. Melee hardening is simply cheaper and easier than getting an underbarrel weapon, but a sai-gun would look pretty sweet.
The thing about weapon foci is that they do not apply to defense tests (can be house ruled) and cannot be dual-wielded (or at least cannot combine their modifiers - also can be house ruled).
Also bonus points for Elektra.
Posted by: Caadium Oct 22 2011, 06:57 AM
QUOTE (Makki @ Oct 21 2011, 11:02 PM)
Art: Arnis de Mano
Maneuver: Two Weapon Style, optionally: Off-Hand Training, Riposte
Weapon: Dual Sai
Tactics: If the sai-wielding character successfully uses Full parry to block an attack (see p. 151, SR4), on his next melee attack he may use the Called Shots rule to disarm his opponent (p. 150, SR4) without receiving the –4 modifier.. So with the maneuver you are always on full defense. Whenever you block and you most likely do, you can then disarm AND hurt the attacker.
get crazy with an Adept with improved ability, counterstrike and weapon foci.
For this to work, you only need a Sai in the off-hand. Your main hand can be any other weapon that fits the criteria of "Two Weapon Style".
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 22 2011, 08:00 AM
QUOTE (Caadium @ Oct 22 2011, 12:57 AM)
Your main hand can be any other weapon that fits the criteria of "Two Weapon Style".
its worth noting that Unarmed Combat fits the criteria for Two Weapon Style, per the listing of Melee Weapons on Anniversary Edition 158, Unarmed is a Weapon with Reach 0. (see the example text, - means 0).
Other weapons with their own Weapon Table entry also work, for example, the Shock Hand implant.
Pirate style doesn't have to be sword and gun. Gun and Unarmed works just fine as well - and may be advantageous to do so over an actual melee weapon if, say, you're an unarmed strike adept.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 10:06 AM
QUOTE (Caadium @ Oct 22 2011, 01:57 AM)
For this to work, you only need a Sai in the off-hand. Your main hand can be any other weapon that fits the criteria of "Two Weapon Style".
Yes, but because sai are an Exotic Weapon, you would have to diverge your skills.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 22 2011, 03:00 AM)
its worth noting that Unarmed Combat fits the criteria for Two Weapon Style, per the listing of Melee Weapons on Anniversary Edition 158, Unarmed is a Weapon with Reach 0. (see the example text, - means 0).
Other weapons with their own Weapon Table entry also work, for example, the Shock Hand implant.
Pirate style doesn't have to be sword and gun. Gun and Unarmed works just fine as well - and may be advantageous to do so over an actual melee weapon if, say, you're an unarmed strike adept.
This is where the rules start to get wonky, but I will say that things like shock hands and hardliner gloves do not qualify as melee weapons for the purpose of Parry, and therefore Riposte. It's also another scenario where you would have to diverge your skills.
Optimally, you want
a single Close Combat skill, and possibly a single Firearms skills (Automatics is best, but the irony of hitting somebody in the head with a grenade launcher might be worth it).
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 22 2011, 05:00 PM
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 04:06 AM)
This is where the rules start to get wonky, but I will say that things like shock hands and hardliner gloves do not qualify as melee weapons for the purpose of Parry, and therefore Riposte. It's also another scenario where you would have to diverge your skills.
Pish-posh.
Not true. Riposte triggers on parries or
Blocks. Blocks use unarmed combat skill. You can riposte with your hands just fine. You can even do so on a full defense: Passive defense of Reaction+Unarmed(block) + Full Dodge or Full Gymdodge.(This setup is actually superior, because you are still Blocking, but also can use your full defense against ranged attacks, which parry doesn't let you do) They are rare, but Weapons that use your Unarmed Skill DO exist. Its not Riposte that matters, its being able to claim the two-weapon style benefit without arming yourself, as they meet the for that maneuver criteria: a weapon with reach one or zero.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 06:50 PM
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 22 2011, 12:00 PM)
Pish-posh.
Not true. Riposte triggers on parries or Blocks. Blocks use unarmed combat skill. You can riposte with your hands just fine. You can even do so on a full defense: Passive defense of Reaction+Unarmed(block) + Full Dodge or Full Gymdodge.(This setup is actually superior, because you are still Blocking, but also can use your full defense against ranged attacks, which parry doesn't let you do) They are rare, but Weapons that use your Unarmed Skill DO exist. Its not Riposte that matters, its being able to claim the two-weapon style benefit without arming yourself, as they meet the for that maneuver criteria: a weapon with reach one or zero.
Thank you for reminding me of that. I'm not sure how you're combining full defense and passive defense like that, though. Unarmed+Gun is still inefficient because Two-Weapon style means blocking with one hand and striking with the other. With a gun, you can only apply Clubs or Blades to strike. That's just one more skill you have to take.
Posted by: Mardrax Oct 22 2011, 08:07 PM
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 08:50 PM)
Thank you for reminding me of that. I'm not sure how you're combining full defense and passive defense like that, though. Unarmed+Gun is still inefficient because Two-Weapon style means blocking with one hand and striking with the other. With a gun, you can only apply Clubs or Blades to strike. That's just one more skill you have to take.
Pish posh again.
Riposte lets you attack in whatever way you deem fit, as long as it targets your attacker.
Meaning you get to put that Warhawk to proper use. For proper damage.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 22 2011, 08:11 PM
Yeah, how dare you try to be sane about it. 
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 08:29 PM
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Oct 22 2011, 03:07 PM)
Pish posh again.
Riposte lets you attack in whatever way you deem fit, as long as it targets your attacker.
Meaning you get to put that Warhawk to proper use. For proper damage.
What I meant was that if you use Two Weapon Style to perform a melee attack while Full Blocking, the weapon in attacking hand will use its relevant skill. That means if you block with your shock hand (Unarmed) and simultaneously clock 'em with your Warhawk (Clubs) and then Riposte with your Warhawk (Pistols), you have used three skills, as opposed to blocking with another club, eliminating the need for Unarmed. The only way I could see Unarmed working is with a Tiffany Elegance Shooting Bracer. You can't (or at least shouldn't) have a shock hand as an underbarrel weapon.
I still don't know how you're both Passive Parrying and Full Gymnastics Dodging, though.
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 22 2011, 09:17 PM
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 02:29 PM)
I still don't know how you're both Passive Parrying and Full Gymnastics Dodging, though.
You need to reread the defense section of the combat chapter.
Full Parry is the ONLY full defense option which REPLACES your normal defense pool. Its incredibly poorly worded.
Everything else just adds more dice into the pool.
So declaring a block then using an interrupt action to go on Full Dodge or Full Gymdodge works just fine.
Additionally, crossing your skills while two-weaponing is disadvantagous, as it has a clause about reducing the skill to the lower of the two if you're mixing it.(see Attacker using a second firearm, p150) You can work around it(skillgroups), but its an easy thing to miss. It may or may not apply to firearms only, though.
I think you're misunderstanding my example as well. I wouldn't want to use Two-Weapon to generate an Dodge(this doesn't work). You use two-weapon offensively, making two attacks, and rely on the
normal defensive options. (block, dodge, parry, full defense)
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)