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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ The Awakened Wheelman
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 20 2011, 11:30 PM
Here's what I want:
- Ability to get from Point A to Point B regardless of obstacles.
- Enough spellcasting ability to overcome object resistance for Analyze Device.
- At least a Three-Trick Pony.
- Dice pools of around 12 for important tests.
- Combat ability.
- Downtime functionality.
- Command is for script-kiddies.
How can I make better use of drones than my teammates other than simply investing more nuyen into them?
Could this role get away with 5 (4) Magic and a point of 'ware?
What spells are useful to a wizrigger?
Am I the only one who thinks that the vehicle rules are confusing and weird?
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 21 2011, 12:53 AM
I recall a good discussion about this a year or so ago(gosh, has it really been that long?). It may have tons of useful info for you, if you're new to rigging. You may find it http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30389&view=findpost&p=906934
No, you're not wrong in that vehicles are confusing. Reaction IS only useful as manual operator - but being a wheelman is plenty good. Adepts also have access to Multitasking, which can make Captain's Chair style rigging really great. Its a wonderful combination with the More Than Metahuman quality.
Adept + a point of ware is a really strong combination.
I would suggest you THOROUGHLY familiarize yourself with the vehicle rules. In particular, focus on the three main control types and what you roll to do things in each.
Autonomous Pilot Operation
Command with Control Device
Jumped In Rigging
and Manual.
Once you know the differences, pick which one(or two) you want to be good at. Across all drone control types one thing will be consistent: Skills. Your attribute portion of tests may change depening on whether you use command or jump-in or not, but your skill values are almost always the same. As an adept, you have access to the incredibly affordable Improved Technical Skill: Technical and Vehicle. Bear in mind that with a skillgroup at 4, you can use adept powers to boost the skills that you want in that group to 6.
Additionally: Sensor targeting(core book), Evasive Driving(core book), Indirect Fire and Information Guided Targeting(arsenal). Please also note that the Common Rolls For Riggers table is NOT always right, and assumes you use rules you don't have to.(case in point: jumped in riggers CAN shoot with Response as Passive Sensor Targeting is optional, not mandatory)
I'm confused about something. Why do you want Mind over Matter?
Posted by: Bodak Oct 21 2011, 01:26 AM
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 07:24 AM
Yes, that was an interesting build. I particularly enjoyed visualizing a LEBD-1 doing Krav. But I don't think I want to be a jumped-in rigger. I want this character to be a manual driver. Yes, fluff-wise, VR is realer than real, but I want this adept to feel the wheel, not be the tires.
Also Digital Grimoire can be fucking stupid sometimes. Heightened Concentration and Manascape, for example. "Hey, what if we made metamagical techniques available for cheap at chargen?" "Sounds good."
As a manual driver, I will be using Reaction to drive. As a Mystic Adept, I may use Intuition to resist Drain. To effectively use Analyze Device, I will need to cast at a high force. Mind Over Matter allows me to use my Intuition stat on my Reaction tests.
I read that thread, but this is not really a spin-off. That thread seemed to be mostly defined by post like "hey look at my suboptimal dice pool" followed by "nuh uh mines bigger".
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 22 2011, 07:49 AM
Hmn. I had fantastic lucky playing an AR-hacking cybersam Wheelman - didn't even rig at ALL. Sadly, the game was short lived.
I ended up using a combination of Move-By-Wire 2, Reaction Boosters(1 i think) Reakt, and Martial Arts with Watchful Guard. I was intending to be a combat hacker who couldn't just hold his own while being in combat, but do it while being at the front of the party. Midway through the build I realized that having such a fantastic Reaction make me an -excellent- driver, and all I had to do was take Pilot and Gunnery.
My experiences were remarkably fun. I put out 11 dice on -passive- defense on foot or in a car, and man, the party's van DANCED. I found i didn't need a really high Intuition, either - my reaction was high enough to compensate.
What i always meant to do, though, was try it out as an Adept build. All the core things that made it good are available to adepts : Reaction(improved reflexes, attribute boost), Reakt(combat sense 2) for fairly cheap. The addition of Improved Technical Skill would make it better. The best thing you can do for a multitasking build like this is cut down on the multi-attribute-dependency as much as possible. If you want to be an awakened wheelman, you probably want to go Logic tradition for the boost on all your Technical skills, and the fact that Cerebral Boosters are very affordable.
On a side note, If you're a mystic adept, you should ask your GM about using making a tradition that rolls Body+Willpower to resist train - its what Adepts do normally, so it'd be for more of an adept-y mysad.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 09:55 AM
So here's some preliminary build outlines for a 'Mind Over Matter Mystic Adept of the Artisan's Way':
Intuition (and therefore Reaction):
SURGE II to max 7 (10 BP)
Genetweak to max 8 (0.2 Essence; Y45,000)
Softcap at 7 (50 BP)
Mysterious Implant II for Inspiration infusion (0.4 Essence; -10 BP)
Speedball Psyche and Betameth
Willpower:
Dwarf (25 BP)
Softcap at 6 (40)
Daredrenaline adds 1 to all tests (0.1 Essence; Y25,000)
Any martial art and Focus Will maneuver to add 2 to all tests after taking a complex action to focus, which is moot outside of combat (7 BP)
Speedball Hurlg and Nitro, Deepweed when applicable
-1 from Inspiration
Magic:
Mystic Adept (10 BP)
Witchcraft Tradition
The Artisan's Way (10 BP)
Harcap at 6, modified maximum of 5 (65 BP)
Devote 2 points to Powers:
- Mind Over Matter, Geas: 1.125 PP
- Improved Ability (Pilot Ground Craft) 3, Favored and Geas; Analytics 4, Favored and Geas: 0.875 PP
- Total: 2 (I apologize for the munchkinry, Critias)
Power Focus R2 (Y50,000; Binding 2 BP)
Sustaining Focus (Health) (Y30,000; Binding 3 BP)
Sustaining Focus (Detection) (Y30,000; Binding 3 BP)
Skills:
Pilot Ground Craft 6 (Modified to 9 with Power) (24 BP)
Specialize in Wheeled (2 BP)
Spellcasting 4 (16 BP)
Summoning 3 (8 BP)
Binding 3 (8 BP)
Enchanting 3 (8 BP)
Specialize in Vessel Preparation (2 BP)
Automotive Mechanic 3 (8 BP)
Specialize in Wheeled (2 BP)
Y250,000 worth of resources (50BP)
Gross: 359 BP
Dice Pools:
Intuition: Base 7 + Inspiration 1 + Psyche 1 + Betameth 1 = 10
Willpower: Base 6 + Hurlg 1 + Nitro 2 = 9 (10 when using Deepweed)
Pilot Groundcraft: Reaction->Intuition 10 + Skill 6 + Improved Ability 3 + Specialization 2 + AR 1= 22 +/- Handling
Resist Drain: Intuition 10 + Willpower 9 + Daredrenaline 1 + Focus Will 2 = 22
Notes:
I can also prepare my vehicle as a vessel for possession.
Item Attunement won't be better than AR for 3 initiate grades. By then I can have a decent Ally Spirit who can inhabit my ride with a Hybrid Form. I can also teach it Pilot Ground Craft so it can drive itself, and other cool stuff that Ally Spirits can do.
tl;dr >20 dice pools for driving and resisting drain
So, any other optimizations/ideas you guys can think of?
Posted by: Makki Oct 22 2011, 10:11 AM
getr yourself a Ford Focus!
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 10:18 AM
I saw what you did there. 
Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 22 2011, 01:13 PM
You should keep in mind that Mind over Matter only helps you with tests - it doesn't improve your initiative score. I'm not really confidant that Intuition->Reaction is worth it because Initiative is so important, but if anyone can use it effectively I think it would be a driver.
Analyze Device is just not going to work for you. You get a bonus based on NET hits, and you're going up against OR 5. Your dice pool is, assuming you pick up a mentor and a specialization for detection, 4+4+2+2=12. That's not happening.
Skills at 3 are 12bp, not 8bp
Analytics 4? Are you planning to try to con your GM into letting it add to spellcasting skills or something? It's a goofy fluff power, and I don't see it as being remotely worth the price for it. Maaaaaaaybe analytics 1 if your GM is the type to let you roll for things you otherwise wouldn't get to roll for with it (which it does not do, RAW).
You don't have Gunnery, which seems an odd choice if you want combat functionality.
You can't choose your Mysterious Impact to just so happen to "mysteriously" be the one that would be super-beneficial to you. "The character has a mysterious implant in her body of which she is unaware. The gamemaster chooses the implant, and the char-acter does not become aware of its existence until the gamemaster chooses to reveal it—perhaps by having it kick in at an inconve-nient time or show up on a detector when the character tries to travel or pass unnoticed into a corporate environment."
Get a Mentor Spirit.
I would think really hard about coughing up for Restricted Gear and making that power focus force 4.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 07:50 PM
Initiative Score is a test, and it uses REA + INT. I can replace REA with INT for any test. Arguable, yes, but I am working under the assumption that it works for Initiative Score.
Analyze Device is going to be difficult, but it's something that can be done outside of combat, allowing things like Aid Sorcery and Aspected Backgrounds.
Skills cost brainfart.
Analytics 4 is just what I ended up having as a result of Artisan's Way and geas. I am starting to think that the Artisan's Way is not useful for a Mind Over Matter user. Item Attunement is stupid for manual drivers. You can't use AR, which adds 1 die, and you can't beat that until you get to initiate to grade 3. That's window-licking stupid. A better use of your karma is getting yourself a sweet Ally Spirit to inhabit your wheels. It's basically a magical Pilot that can do a bunch of great stuff for you. I mean, a car that counterspells for you? A motorcycle that casts stunbolts? How cool is that? And you can still use AR while driving it. However, Artisan's Way adepts can apply Adept Centering to Vehicle Skills, which is very cool.
Gunnery seemed like something I would leave the other characters to do from outside of my windows.
Yeah, that's some twinkery that crosses the line.
Getting a Mentor Spirit and a Power Focus require me to free up some Quality BP. Right now, I have Mystic Adept 10 + SURGE II 10 + The Artisan's Way 10 + Martial Arts I 5 = 35. If I drop The Artisan's Way I can get a Mentor Spirit and a better focus. I think it's worth it, because I have plenty of driving dice.
Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)
I also need to use up some more Essence. Any suggestions?
Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 22 2011, 08:16 PM
Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.
Go snake. The one dice penalty isn't so bad, and you can have snake-like effects for a shamanic mask.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 22 2011, 08:25 PM
Good point, but with drugs and Increase Reflexes, we're looking at a base Initiative of Intuition (Base 7 + Betameth 1 + Psyche 1) 9 + Reaction (Base 1 + Betameth 2) 3 + Increase Reflexes 2 (If sustained in a Force 3 focus) = 14, and the Score would roll Intuition 9 x 2 for an average of 6 hits. 20 Initiative ain't bad.
"Me beard is alive!"
Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 22 2011, 09:10 PM
Gunnery seemed like something I would leave the other characters to do from outside of my windows.
Getting a Mentor Spirit and a Power Focus require me to free up some Quality BP. Right now, I have Mystic Adept 10 + SURGE II 10 + The Artisan's Way 10 + Martial Arts I 5 = 35. If I drop The Artisan's Way I can get a Mentor Spirit and a better focus. I think it's worth it, because I have plenty of driving dice.
Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)
I also need to use up some more Essence. Any suggestions?
I agree - I don't think you're getting your money's worth out of the Way, and I would much rather have a Mentor Spirit and Restricted Gear.
On second thought you are right about gunnery, as an analog driver.
As a Possession mage, IMO, Snake all the way. Task spirits are the ones you want (because Gunnery is a Technical Skill, you put the task spirit with Gunnery in your drone and let it kamurder things), and nobody gives +2 Task, so +2 Binding is the way to go. There's other neat tricks that make Binding worthwhile, such as Invoking. -1 dice to one spell you use sometimes is well, well worth it.
Looks like you have Dareadrenaline (.1), GenOp Intuition (.2)?
Some good stuff:
Attention Coprocessor: high Perception is always good, and you have a high Intuition already.
Cyberhand or cyberfoot with a nanohive and Neocortical for +3 to your automotive mechanic. Alternatively, go whole hog with an alphaware cyberarm with boosted agility, and rely on that and a weapon skill for fighting outside vehicles.
You can never go wrong with reflex recorders for skills you care about.
Genetic Optimization: Willpower would let you hit the breakpoint for an extra Stun box.
Posted by: Manunancy Oct 23 2011, 07:43 AM
Intuition: Base 7 + Inspiration 1 + Psyche 1 + Betameth 1 = 10
Willpower: Base 6 + Hurlg 1 + Nitro 2 = 9 (10 when using Deepweed)
If you're using all four (or five...) at the same time, you'd better to be stopped in safe place - and preferably with a medic on hand - when you crash down from all that. The landing is going to be rough....
That sort of mix sounds like a great way to get started on the Path of the Burnout....
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 23 2011, 10:25 AM
Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 23 2011, 11:51 AM
Fair enough. And my mistake.
Posted by: Ryu Oct 23 2011, 06:42 PM
Gunnery is a Vehicle Active skill. Remember your jumped-in cheese
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 23 2011, 07:37 PM
I dunno, I still think the whole initiative thing is arguable, but we will probably never get an "official" answer anyways like Critias does with his unofficial errata. For such a potentially game-changing power, it has a remarkable lack of wording. It's seriously like only one paragraph.
Task spirits are super awesome for possession traditions.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 23 2011, 07:49 PM
It seems pretty clear, at least in intent. Swapping for Body doesn't increase your armor cap; swapping for Strength doesn't change your pre-test weight cap, nor even (IIRC?) your melee damage. Etc. Your Init *Score* is a precalc stat, not 'part of the test', in the way that linked attribs are.
Posted by: Critias Oct 23 2011, 08:11 PM
Task spirits are super awesome for possession traditions.
FWIW, War! was (just) before "my time." I had nothing to do with the adept powers and such in there. I integrated a few of 'em when I thought they made sense (on the favored lists in Ways, that sort of thing), but I'm in the same boat as you guys are, when it comes to knowing exactly how they work.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 23 2011, 09:09 PM
Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?
Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 23 2011, 09:11 PM
Oops, you're right. And no spirit type gets Vehicle skills. I must have been thinking about Tutor sprites.
I wonder what the best way to get spirits to help with drones is, then? If they possess a drone with mounted weapons, the weapon uses Gunnery which the spirit doesn't have, and the spirit cannot use autosofts. An Ally Spirit could have Gunnery, of course, but you only get one of those.
Maybe the way to go is drones with mechanical arms and held weapons plus Guardian spirits? Although I want to see autonomous Dodge Guardians with mounted weapons carrying zombies with machine guns.
Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 24 2011, 12:46 AM
To make people think they are better te they really are. Also, they are pretty basic spells, except the fact they are mostly worthless.
That said, analyze device does have it's uses. Operating a vehicle or commlink just aren't them. It'll help you take maglocks apart, or run a scanner.
Posted by: Manunancy Oct 24 2011, 04:59 AM
Fix will work on low tech items - for things like fixing a broken toaster in the morning, patching bullet holes in your clothes or a dented blade it's working fine. But using it on something complex or high tech is definitively stretcfhing the spell to the limits of it's abilities.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 24 2011, 05:16 AM
Now read the section about wireless connectivity (SR4A p. 313). So (nearly) everything is at least OR 3 for the contained electronics.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2011, 01:18 PM
You can have as many Ally Spirits as you are willing to pay the price for. There is no limit, other than Karma.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2011, 01:19 PM
But you can fix things with the spells other than electronics.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 24 2011, 01:26 PM
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2011, 04:20 PM
No Assumptions are necessary at all. Not EVERYTHING (not even Nearly Everything) is wireless enabled. You will have other concerns, however, than electornics. Your biggest challenmge is that almost everything in the world is either a Manufactured High-Tech object (OR 3), or is Highly Manufactured (OR 5).
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 24 2011, 04:34 PM
Actually the book says otherwise:
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 24 2011, 04:54 PM
Oh snap! RAW-slam. 
My take is that magic is simply *supposed* to be hard with significant-OR targets. I once saw someone say that 'spells specifically designed for high-OR objects should ignore it', or something like that; that's just crazy talk.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 24 2011, 05:34 PM
It is crazy talk, but the RAW make the whole Ram/Wreck/Demolish line of spells not very useful. -1 drain for very limited application is not that great.
Posted by: Makki Oct 24 2011, 05:35 PM
if you are only slightly tech-savy, you can disassemble the device and fix only the broken part. this could be a simple piece like a broken axle or burned fuse. Then you re-assemble your vehicle. It's the slow way. But also the fun way.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 24 2011, 05:36 PM
At that point a roll of duct tape is about as useful as the magician.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 04:30 PM
I've had some difficulty making a successful build for this character. Optimizing my drain attributes and getting that wicked power focus costs me a lot of money. Part of being a driver is owning a tricked-out ride which itself costs a lot of money. I am running up against a brick wall on how to buy everything I need. Then I had the grand idea to not give this character a vehicle. "Say whaaaa?" Someone who boosts cars and provides transportation for runners and then sends them to his chop shop contact for an additional payout. Quick, anonymous, cheap. Now, what skills does a car thief need?
According to Arsenal, you need to broadcast:
- Access ID
- License plate
- Registration, Insurance, SIN, and License
As for actually gaining access to the vehicle, I would have to beat these systems:
- Maglocks or
- Keypads or
- Biometrics or
- Transponder keys or
- A combination thereof and
- An encrypted node
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 25 2011, 05:11 PM
Dakka Dakka, I think they're meant to be not very useful. Bad design. 
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 25 2011, 06:07 PM
You're putting way too much thought into it. Shadowrun is an abstract game system. "Fake SIN" and "Fake License" covers everything you need that SIN or license for, and it's assumed that you keep it up to date through whatever legitimate or illegitimate means necessary. You don't have to worry about the fine details unless your GM decides to have some fun and do a side adventure based on your day-to-day lives or some such. Otherwise, that's simply not what the game is about.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 06:13 PM
Here's what I've got so far:
And I haven't even raised my phsyical attributes, bought contacts, or purchased a good commlink yet! Here's my new list of priorities:
- Drive better than my team.
- Steal cars nonchalantly.
- Summon possession spirits for shenanigans.
- Reliably casts spells that can defeat OR 5.
Thoughts? Suggestions? QQ?
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 06:20 PM
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 25 2011, 06:20 PM
I mean, that's a kind of crazy list of priorities. It can be done, sure. It's just very hybrid.
Posted by: Modular Man Oct 25 2011, 06:23 PM
You may switch "Vehicle Mask" for "Physical Mask". Does the same thing and a lot more. A little more drain, but so much more versatility.
The "PuSHeD" geneware and "neocortical" nanites (employing a nanohive, of course) grant you +1 and +3 to logic-related skills, the latter only if you can concentrate enough.
You could also rent out cars from time to time. The papers are matching then, you could - with a little time - add in a few improvements and remove them afterwards. Make sure you sign the best car insurance that's on the bill just in case you have to wreck that ride. You can, of course, only do that so much on every fake SIN. If your runner lives in a city with state borders nearby, use that to your advance - car rentals, if not part of a chain, are unlikely to check in other nations, even if they are nearby.
You could get a few fake licenses/papers of cheap, common cars in common colors ready at hand. Spoof the car's node ID and you're golden. In times of real ned, you can even re-paint the car.
Make sure to clean the car up afterwards (read: C² in massive doses).
Personally, I'd use drones for a lot of this stuff, but your character seems more like a mano-a-mano kind of guy. A cleaning rag might even not have such a high object resistance
As for use of "Analyze Device": Technically advanced stuff is, if the character in question isn't tricked out for that, right off. But there may be other things... for example, carry an obsidian dagger with you all the time. A possession spirit will go in there more likely, and you can boost your pool easily. Almost no one will suspect that flint stone with the sharp edge in your pocket for your murder tool. The spell might not be as useful as on first sight, but it's still worth something...
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 25 2011, 06:24 PM
Fake License: Carry and Conceal Weapons (Rating 4)
Fake License: Fishing (Rating 4)
Fake License: Registration and Insurance (Rating 4)
Those are three examples of what a fake license can do. The "lumping of them together" is covered by the fact that you have both a Fake License and a Fake SIN. If you only have one and not the other, then they're either not "lumped together" or they're attached to legitimate SINs or licenses that you possess. Which, incidentally, are free of charge as long as you have the SINner negative quality.
Also, if you're going with a Possession tradition, just have a spirit possess your vehicle. Then you 1) don't have to worry about piloting yourself, 2) it gains its Force to all of the relevant vehicle stats, and 3) you can do a lot more while the spirit is piloting. It basically turns you into a universal drone rigger, except you don't have to pay for your vehicles or drones and can just usurp existing ones with relative ease.
Posted by: Udoshi Oct 25 2011, 06:27 PM
For reliably casting spells to beat OR, you have a few options.
Most of them make you take a look at what spell category you're going to be casting. That is either Manipulation or Divinitation, likely.
From there, you have Spellcasting Foci, Bound Spirits with Assist Spellcasting....
and specialities. Using the FAQ ruling that the core book list of specialties aren't the ONLY ones, your spellcasting skill should definitely be Spellcasting ( Object Resistance +2).
If you want to keep spells up all the time, like analyze device, you will almost certainly want some way of reducing the sustaining penalty. Foci, Psyche or spirits.
The other option is raising your Edge, and getting a decent/moderate size dice pool, and just rerolling it if you're casting an important spell.
Car-possessing is less good than you think. It loses a pass compared to the pilot, and still needs to burn one to control itself, because its a vehicle. ITNW and the stat buff is nice, but its not necessarily less expensive either. If you want to reliably possess a high OR target, it needs to be a prepared vessel. Those tend to be pretty expensive, and they open you up to being counter-possessed while not in use by your spirit.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 06:35 PM
I was thinking about some kind of specialization like "Hi-Tech Targets".
Smoke Psyche every day. I also plan on having familiars to possess (Greymalkin, Paddock, etc.) to help me sustain/cast spells.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 06:42 PM
As for car-possession, I would love to purchase a car and have an Ally Spirit to inhabit it, but regular spirits can't do it so well. For starters, none of them have access to Vehicle skills, so they wouldn't be able to handle a crash test very well. I would probably just have them make my ride faster, but I can't find very concrete rules about it. "Adds Force to vehicle stats." So...a Force 5 spirit increase my acceleration by 5/5? And I top out at 5 more for Speed? That's...pretty useless. However, my Ally Spirit could have both Pilot Ground Craft and Gunnery skills, and would basically be a magical Pilot.
And on that note, could I have a Task spirit possess something with functional appendages and have it hack for me? Just to take care of those pesky low-risk 3/3 nodes and save myself the trouble? Would you rule that a spirit is more, less, or equally competent as a similarly-rated Agent? At the very least, they wouldn't have to be "unrestricted".
Posted by: Ryu Oct 25 2011, 06:46 PM
And I haven't even raised my phsyical attributes, bought contacts, or purchased a good commlink yet! Here's my new list of priorities:
- Drive better than my team.
- Steal cars nonchalantly.
- Summon possession spirits for shenanigans.
- Reliably casts spells that can defeat OR 5.
Thoughts? Suggestions? QQ?
- You might be overshooting your target on the Driving aspect. I´d expect some samurai at REA 7 and Pilot Ground 3 (Bikes +2), but that are only 12 dice. You are nowhere near a Jumped-In-Rigger on the other hand.
- You lack the gear for hacking
- Easy to cover.
- Some dice missing there. (Talking dp sizes, wasn´t one original goal having a dp of 12 for important skills? You are dangerously low on attributes for an unskilled char like that.)
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 25 2011, 06:54 PM
They can use their other powers while possessing. Like, oh I don't know, Movement. And they shouldn't need Vehicle Skills or make many tests just for 'moving' since the moment they possess the vehicle they become a possessed vessel, not simply a vehicle. Just like how they don't have to make any kind of tests to move when possessing, say, a Plasteel Homunculus or Zombie.
Since the rules specifically state that its up to the GM to decide how such things are handled (Street Magic, pp 102-103), I'd imagine that if a test is required that normally uses a skill, Force would/should take its place. Such as Reaction + Force instead of Reaction + Vehicle Skill. The spirit isn't "piloting" the vehicle. It *is* the vehicle. Far and away moreso than even a jumped-in rigger.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 07:03 PM
Driving: INT 7 + Skill 6 + Power 2 + RR 1 + Spec 2 + AR 1 = 19 +/- Handling
Stealing Cars* (Hardware): LOG 5 + Skill 4 + AR 1 = 10 + Task Spirit Teamwork
Summon: MAG 3 + Focus 4 + Summoning 4 = 11
Bind: MAG 3 + Focus 4 + Binding 4 + Mentor 2 = 13
Cast Detection Spell on High-OR object: MAG 3 + Focus 4 + Spellcasting 4 + Spec 2 + Mentor 2 = 15 + Air Spirit Aid Sorcery
*Yes, I do not have hacking gear yet. I am not sure what I need for my specific task (Decrypting a rating 3 node's encryption), and what I need to do to achieve my goal (Steal a car). Arsenal says that I need to decrypt the node, but then what? Do I need skills outside of Hacking? Can a Task Spirit do it reliably with a decent enough commlink?
Posted by: Ryu Oct 25 2011, 07:15 PM
The whole "Mind over Matter" business is a waste. Play a proper possession based spellcaster. Get initiated as soon as possible, choose Channeling. Get two points of implants: add a Trauma Dampener and Reaction Enhancer 3. Forfeit on super-Intuition.
With Rea +Force from possession, your dp´s won´t suffer. Your physical initiative will be ludicrously high. Go for mook hacking, get the software suite ingame if you are not allowed to buy hacked software at chargen.
Posted by: PresentPresence Oct 25 2011, 07:21 PM
Hey, I have an idea! Why don't I just play a pornomancer! Oh wait, that's totally not what I wanted to do. What I'm looking for is optimizations without compromising the core character concept. Mind Over Matter is the name of the game, compadre, and I'm just trying to figure out how to work with it.
Posted by: Modular Man Oct 25 2011, 07:30 PM
Oh well, I missed a point: Witchcraft. Congratulations, you just got yourself task spirits. These guys can take a lot of the car theft out of your hands.
Wicker Men (see "Street Magic") make great mechanics. Cheap, somewhat matching the tradition... not so very combat effective, though.
You could as well use leather whips and chains as weapons, also allowing spirits to possess them and go all snakey on your enemys, just desperately thinking of more uses for "Analyze Device"...
I still think that a gimped up rigger and his electronically piloted car can take on a spirit possessing a vehicle. Cars are damn big targets and lack a lot of choices in places they can go to. Heck, even a ward across a street can throw that spirit out of his wheels.
Movement is great on characters and drones, maybe even motorcycles, but you'll need high force spirits to make even half the effect on a car.
Posted by: Ryu Oct 25 2011, 07:41 PM
I took your goal to be "Awakened Wheelman" with possession and spellcasting ability. If Mind over Matter is central to you, by all means do that. One really does not have to take maximum use out of Possession. I would still suggest to simply softcap Intuition at 5, as actual Reaction can be boosted beyond 7 easily. A Trauma Dampener instead of Optimised Intuition should allow you to risk over-summoning.
Posted by: Critias Oct 25 2011, 08:00 PM
I think part of the problem is that you've changed the goalposts, here in this very thread. As it stands right now, your character concept is 1) drive better than everyone else, 2) hack well enough to casually steal cars, 3) summon stuff, and 4) reliably sling 15+ spellcasting dice (in order to beat the OR you'll be facing), all while 5) investing in Mind Over Matter.
Your character concept, in other words, is like three other character concepts smushed together. So, yeah. Sometimes someone's gonna think outside the box a little bit while trying to help you out. You're requiring as handful of very high attributes, high Magic, some of that high Magic dedicated to Adept powers (instead of the summoning and spellcasting you state as requirements), skills spread out all over the place (from Pilot Ground Vehicle to Electronics to Summoning to Spellcasting, in addition to the standard Shadowrunner staples so that you're not totally worthless outside of a car, I'd assume), and a not-unreasonable amount of Resources (because you want a little bit of chrome, you want reasonable electronics, etc)...
Your concept is scattered all over the place. Standard answers might not exactly cut it.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 25 2011, 08:12 PM
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 25 2011, 08:55 PM
Jarheads should be more or less identical to Jump-In riggers, so maybe not the best comparison.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 25 2011, 09:39 PM
As a Marine, I resent that...
Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 26 2011, 10:51 AM
I spent some time trying to figure out the best use for possession spirits with drones/vehicles, and my conclusion is that since they can't get Gunnery, the idea should be to use the vehicle to complement the spirit rather than vice versa. Specifically, with Vehicle Armor. It's easy to get a vehicle with Armor 20. Then you possess it, and it gets bonus armor and ITNW, and then instead of trying to use built-in weapons or anything, the spirit just uses its powers to fight or do stuff and benefits from being nearly invulnerable while in the armored bus or whatever.
There's also hilarious shenanigans to be had with Invoking a Great Form Plant Spirit, then having it possess something like a armor-modified Conestoga Vista. It winds up being able to regenerate ridiculously fast, like 12 damage/turn.
Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 26 2011, 11:04 AM
And I haven't even raised my phsyical attributes, bought contacts, or purchased a good commlink yet! Here's my new list of priorities:
- Drive better than my team.
- Steal cars nonchalantly.
- Summon possession spirits for shenanigans.
- Reliably casts spells that can defeat OR 5.
Thoughts? Suggestions? QQ?
I think you basically need to just start hacking off the least point-efficient stuff. That means:
Be an ork, rather than a dwarf. That last point of willpower is not worth it, and you need the point savings so bad it hurts. I'm assuming you don't want really low strength/body (like 2/2 or 3/1) here, otherwise be a human.
Cybereyes are expensive and not actually much better than goggles/contacts. Wear it instead of implanting it, save money and essence.
Dareadrenaline, while neat, is a marginal thing and you can get it later. Ditto Reflex Recorder.
Get PuSHeD and cyberhand+neocortical+nanohive. This gives you a large, cheap bonus to logic-linked skills, of which you have a whole bunch that you're burning points on.
Ditch Gunnery. Lower Arcana, Automotive Mechanic, Hardware, and maybe Hacking to 1; they'll be better than they currently are because of PuSheD + Neocortical.
Lose the specializations, buy them with karma.
Posted by: Modular Man Oct 27 2011, 02:10 PM
Argh. Fantastic, I like it, but it will likely make any GM cry. For further hilarity, don't just use a battle-ready bus - use a mech (see elswhere on this forum...). Hey, if I get to get my hands on a Great Form Plant Spirit, I will probably do that.
I'm not really getting what you propose for vehicle possession and gunnery, though. Are you saying that the gun port should shoot on its own (which may be impossible) or to leave the Gunnery-linked Weapons out altogether?
Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Oct 27 2011, 04:17 PM
Umaro's suggest is basically use the vehicle as a buff for the spirit due to vehicles having high body and armor. Pretty much the spirit just uses whatever power it has for attacks.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 04:22 PM
.o0(my mohawk must be pretty pink right now.)
Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 27 2011, 04:23 PM
I am suddenly envisioning the bus coming apart like the Transformers from the movies, a mass of vehicle parts engulfing the target.
-k
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 04:30 PM
Wait, what? How can you engulf while possessing a bus? Sigh.
Posted by: Makki Oct 27 2011, 04:32 PM
don't say it! http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=35326
because melee range is not a requirement for engulf. Plant engulf can be tendrillars and rootings appear from underneath the target.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 04:37 PM
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 04:40 PM
More moronic RAW, and surprise, it's Possession at fault. Engulfing is a spirit surrounding something.
Posted by: Modular Man Oct 27 2011, 04:44 PM
I just watched Transformers a while ago... when I read that post about Great Form Spirits possessing vehicles, I went to check if Plant Spirits get Elemental Attack just so it could flip cars around with a Blast Attack just like that helicopter dude. 
Engulf doesn't necessarily require the critter's body to engulf the target, its surroundings (related to the spirit's element) might do as well.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 04:56 PM
Lame. Time for another house rule. If it was an 'external' engulf, then it should be LOS, possibly LOS(A).
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 05:11 PM
There's no might about it. It's exactly what the power does.
Engulf, SR4A, p. 294: "The Engulf power gives a critter the ability to draw victims into itself or the terrain it controls, thus smothering the victim."
Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 27 2011, 05:13 PM
You mean like Great Form plant spirits get?
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