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Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 22 2011, 04:47 AM

I play the cyber combat support character (aka razorboi/street sammy/gunbunny), & as such I have a number of restricted/forbidden implants in me. Our GM has been having us meet Johnsons a lot in triple AAA rated areas with scanners galore. This has been making going to meets difficult for me. Should I continue trying to go to these meets, or trust in my group to be able to talk/handle things when I am not there?

Its no surprise when the deckerhacker decides to appear at the meetup electronically, but the street samurai?

I would like to say I trust my team, but I don't. My fellow players are fine, but my character doesn't think they have the sense to know what jobs to take or for the right amount of coin.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 22 2011, 05:05 AM

If that's the setup, there's no reason to go. If you don't trust your team, and you can't be there via matrix, you need to not be on a team.

It's kind of anachronistic to even have meat meets in the first place.

Posted by: vladski Oct 22 2011, 05:40 AM

Meat meets are just cool. As a GM, I liked to have the characters meet up with the Johnson (or his rep) in a variety of places. There was their standard Runner bar where they were regulars and had some control over the meet. (Their communal fixer owned the place.) But frequently the runners would meet Mr. J where he wanted, which could be anything from a bar to a nightclub to a park to a posh residential penthouse. They've met in a church and in a McHughs! They once even met in the parking lot of a Lonestar precinct!!

The different locales provided a nice springboard for roleplaying as well as tactics. Usually a sniper was positioned outside the meet to deal with anyone that was trying to screw the party. Frequently the meet was attended by the non-cyber adept (with astral perception) and the face. The rigger would be near-by with his war wagon all warmed up. Admittedly, the party mostly trusted one another in these situations. At the very least, they trusted their face.

Sure, a meet could be handled purely electronically, encrypted and scrambled to high heaven. But, I tend to think that most folks want to see who they are hiring and see who is hiring them mutually.

Vlad

Posted by: Midas Oct 22 2011, 05:45 AM

This is something for you to take up with your GM. How would he handle ID checks and cyberware checks in these AAA areas? This information is something your character should know about having lived in the gameworld for quite a while, so it is fair enough that your character know about the risks involved in going to such an area. If there is even a small chance that your fake SIN could be blown and/or you get arrested, then it is probably not worth the risk.

Do the rest of the team want you at the meet in case things go sour? In that case, you might want to try and negotiate a change of setting with the Johnson via your fixer, who should be diplomatic enough to ensure the meet goes ahead without you if the Johnson is unwilling to change the venue.

Also, depending on what security measures are being taken at the meet, it is possibe (with the J's understanding) that you attend virtually via the hacker's commlink or something.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 22 2011, 06:44 AM

The distrust was acquired after a few missions and seeing how the "team" behaved IC. As a result my character's attitude toward teh "team" is shaky. I like my game group (as they are the only SR4A game going in NYC I could find), but the characters a mix of some very oddballs. As a result, IC friction has developed. Can't be helped.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 22 2011, 06:48 AM

Well, if saying "We're here to meet Mr. Johnson" doesn't get you past the scanners, Mr. Johnson doesn't have enough money to hire you, problem solved.

Posted by: kzt Oct 22 2011, 07:21 AM

The whole idea that the guy who is hiring "deniable assets" to commit major crimes will want the people he is hiring to know anything about him, much less see and talk to him, has always been a bit of SR insanity. It's a lot easier to deny the assets when they don't know you exist, it's much harder when they can produce recordings of you soliciting them to commit crimes.

But the question is a GM issue. If the GM wants your character to show up he will arrange it. If not, then consider your options, which include changing characters, trusting your face to make a deal or leaving.

Posted by: TheOOB Oct 22 2011, 07:27 AM

Remember that being a Shadowrunner is kind of like a badge of honor, any runner worth the name won't sell out Mr. J unless they are given a damn good reason, because if they do it they basically will never get any work every again, which means that Mr. J usually doesn't have much to worry about when hiring runners unless he is either a) hiring green runners who don't have a rep, or b) not doing legwork on the runners.

The physical meet in really for the runners, it helps the runners to trust Mr. J, and it's a sign of good faith from Mr. J, after all, if the Johnson was planning on betraying the runners or skipping out on payment, he wouldn't risk a face to face where the runners could get a good look at the Johnson and have a chance to do some legwork based on what they know. In effect, most good runner teams will end up charging more if they can't meet Johnson face to face, because there really is less security for the runners, if an Anonymous person over the matrix doesn't pay up, there isn't a lot you can do.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 22 2011, 08:39 AM

If it's Johnson that wants the face-to-face meet, and he wants to meet the entire team, then he should pick a meeting place that the entire team can go to.

On the other hand, I'm not wild about characters with so much findable illegal gear that they can't infiltrate a high-security place. I mean, infiltrating high-security places is a major part of what you're supposed to be doing as a shadowrunner...

Posted by: Glyph Oct 22 2011, 11:26 AM

Remember, though, the Johnson is a deniable asset himself, and usually has layers of disguise and misdirection for dealing with shadowrunners.


On meets in high security areas, I agree with TheOOB. The Johnson should be waving the characters past security. You shouldn't have to plan out a complex infiltration just to get to the meet - unless the meet is in a high security or exclusive place specifically to test the group's ability to get in. But it's an ill-conceived test, though, because not every member of the team is necessarily an infiltration expert - there is also the muscle, the getaway driver, etc. And those people might want to be at the meet, too - these guys may work together, but they are still more or less independent contractors.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 22 2011, 11:39 AM

Why does the Johnson want to meet physically? There's different possible reasons.

- He doesn't; the runners want to. Because they don't trust him, perhaps (didn't the fixer vouch for Johnson?). If Johnson picks a spot where the runners can't actually get to him, that doesn't help to create trust.

- Because he wants to assess them face to face. Maybe because he has Assensing, maybe just because he's better at face to face working with people. If he wants to assess all of the team, he should insist the entire team shows up (even the hacker!). It doesn't help a lot to deny entrance to the people you want to meet.

- To hand over objects the runners need, or to show them files or suchlike physically. In this case, the runners really only need a representative.



As for the player side...

- If you can't even trust your teammates with the Johnson meet, why do you trust them to watch your back during a run?

- Why not insist on a live feed from the Face's cybereyes/glasses, just like the hacker is getting?

Posted by: UmaroVI Oct 22 2011, 01:19 PM

You do realize that the threshold for "can't reliably get past a Cyberware scanner" is "any F cyberware at all," right? There's really no way around that. Even with delta-grade cyberware, you have a 10% chance of getting busted every time you go through a scanner.

Also keep in mind there's a difference between "can't casually walk into a high security place through the front door like a normal visitor" and "can't break into a high security place." But the Johnson probably doesn't want you hacking his security system so that you can show up and talk to him in person.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 22 2011, 01:30 PM

So maybe F-classified cyber is a liability, not necessarily an asset? How many F-cyber do you really need, that can't be disguised as something legal, or replaced with something less restricted?



It's a pretty big hindrance if you can only infiltrate by being unseen, never by not being seen for what you are. It makes going in through the front door in disguise impossible, which is a serious sacrifice.

Posted by: Wakshaani Oct 22 2011, 01:59 PM

A few other thoughts:

Having the big metal-throbbing tough helps if things go sour. The big slabs of meat that stand around when the smallguys yap know the drill ... they tend to be pretty calm about things and give each other a few looks that small people think are "Try anything and I mess you up", but really mean "Your twirp a PITA as well?" /"Yup."

Aside from that, those who are most fitting for the meeting area should be there (Topped by the face, natch) while the rest hangback and do overwatch rolls. When you're in a triple-A eatery, Clyde McClankypants should probably not be there. In contrast, if the Johnson is getting you to meet at some seedy Shadowrunner bar, then he *expects* big scary people to be there. It shows that you're a "legit" running team in his eyes.

Of course, a goo dmeeting area sets a whole lot of tones, and it's good to play with your players from time to time by mixing it up. It's refreshing to have them gather up in the zoo, for instance... it's public, but has enough twists and turns to give you some privacy, different groups wander around, linger at the same area, then seperate all the time, so it doesn't look suspicious. And, you know, your party's ork or troll meatshield gets to enjoy some cotton candy. I heart that.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 22 2011, 02:53 PM

heh. Zoo's one of my places. In addition to what you mentioned, there are a lot of places in the zoo that are ungood for sensors. Amusement parks are good as well.

I tend to go to matrix meetings, though. First, it neuters most of the face boosts. Second, it's difficult for third parties to intercept the discussion. Third... put your meat in a vehicle and tell it to go walkabout, and even if you're traced it's hard to catch you. The downside is there's a lot less evidence for identifying Mr. Johnson. Of course, if you're the GM doing this that's not necessarily a bad thing from your point of view (grin).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 22 2011, 03:02 PM

Saint Hallow, I'm talking about the IC side. You can't run (repeatedly) with people you don't even trust enough to go get the job.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 22 2011, 04:02 PM

The major question: Will Mr. "I have less than 1 Essence" behave himself during the interview?

The one game I sort-of played (Everyone save me and another player got called away, and the GM had to revise the whole thing on the fly!), had this nutbar show up while I was Mr. Cool with my Norse Tradition Magician/Face.

As I asked one of my contacts right after the meet, "Did they start putting Lead in the water after I left Seattle?" "Did they ever stop?" "Good point."

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 22 2011, 04:12 PM

*Sigh* My first time GM'ing SR, I had a player like that. He loved the combat side, and pretty much used skillwires to compensate for all his other skills. His Essance was about 1, and he actually threatened another PC during the Johnson meet. Needless to say, he pissed off the other players (which wasn't hard. I had been DM'ing D&D for that same group, and they were sick of his spotlight hogging and the group had literally taken time to kill 3 of his characters that were just evil SOB's)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 22 2011, 04:15 PM

There's not particular connection between low Essence, Forbidden gear, or too-crazy-to-exist-ness, though.

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 22 2011, 04:18 PM

That all depends. Much of the Augmentaton negative qualities require an amount of essence to be lost before you qualify (cyberpsychosis), which indicates there is supposed to be a link. This is largely a fluff thing though, and it's up to a GM to make use of the fluff to impede an overly cybered character, if he feels it necessary.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 22 2011, 04:23 PM

*shrug* Combat Monster, Prejudice, Compulsion, etc. have no such requirements, and neither does 'being a stupid, bad player'. There is some Cyber Eats Your Soul in SR4, but so does everything.

Posted by: Ryu Oct 22 2011, 04:23 PM

I envision a triple-blind scenario for that - runners, fixers and johnsons all know what everyone else is basically doing. But not the details.

Knowledge of individual runs would not spread far as long as the run didn´t make "15 minutes of fame" and the J fulfilled all promises. Loose lips, sink ships.

The fixer does not want to screw either the runners or Mr. J as that is dangerous business.

Runners srewing their pipeline will not have many subsequent runs. A pro merc has to stay bought for the agreed-upon task.

And J´s srewing runners have to deal with surviving crews.

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 22 2011, 04:27 PM

True. Much of those are also likely to occur without augmentation. I'm not saying it's going to happen to everyone, but I have no issue with causing mental anguish for overly augmented characters. Fortunitely, my current players have no low essence issues, the lowest being 3.2

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 22 2011, 04:28 PM

I think in practice they're often correlated, with the player being the common factor...

Posted by: Paul Oct 22 2011, 06:32 PM

In my own games it's rare for the players to actually meet "Mr. Johnson"-the guy who's actually paying for the job. Usually it's a cut out, or an anonymous online meeting.

The idea that being a "Shadowrunner" is some how a badge of honor, or some how makes you part of some self styled Bushido like code is ridiculous to us as well. (At your own table do as you'd like, obviously.)This isn't to say my players are constantly selling out their employers, but rather they understand that doing so can increase their risks. So every time they look at the situation it becomes a risk management scenario-what carries the least risk with the greatest benefit?

Posted by: kzt Oct 22 2011, 06:40 PM

We have you for 4 count of attempted murder, 13 counts of grand theft, two of kidnapping and 43 counts of illegal weapons possession. On average that's good for about 57 years of making little rocks out of big rocks. However the DA is willing to make a deal with you, as he would really like to know who hired you to do this. ...

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 22 2011, 06:44 PM

Do DA's really do much in SR? Especially in places where policing and criminal imprisonment are handled by the same corp (usually Lonestar or Knight Errant)?

Posted by: Paul Oct 22 2011, 07:04 PM

The game does not officially address this in any significant fashion. For my own part I see no reason why the Justice system would cease to exist.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 22 2011, 07:10 PM

Ah?
Explain the barrens.

Posted by: Paul Oct 22 2011, 07:19 PM

Well I said "Cease to exist" not "unchanged." One of the biggest parts of the setting as I see it is that "Justice" is no longer a "right" seen as available to all.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 22 2011, 07:26 PM

So you're actually in agreement with Hunterherne's point?

Posted by: Paul Oct 22 2011, 07:33 PM

I'd say we don't have completely differing opinions. As I read his post, he asked if the Justice system had any real use-since it only served the those involved in the system. I'd say overall, that's exactly how it works, but I'd say that it's not always the case. Does that make sense? Or am I as clear as mud?

Posted by: kzt Oct 22 2011, 07:45 PM

It's extremely likely that in anything but a corp state that the decision whether to prosecute and what to charge someone with will belong to elected officials and not to a corp functionary. The the average SR player it matters not at all, as everyone is willing to throw the book at terrorists and criminals like them.

Posted by: Paul Oct 22 2011, 07:47 PM

Learn to play the cards that are dealt chummer.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 22 2011, 08:29 PM

Back to Meeting Mr. Johnson...

In my games, meeting places done by Professional Johnsons were done in neutral locations. Decent enough neighborhoods that surveillance was done, but not intrinsically pervasive. They'll make you check your firearm (And ammo for cyberguns) at the door, but could care less about your knives or spurs, that type of place. Neutral ground where both sides can feel comfortable. Some places in Tacoma or Auburn, typically, or on the border of Touristville in the Redmond Barrens.

The less professional ones would insist on a place they felt more comfortable, or a more stereotypical place like a dive in the Barrens like they saw on the 'Trid. One that was pretending to be a complete newb on the scene had the group meet at Club Penumbra, because, "Well, this is where you meet Shadowrunners, right?" (They never did get the second part of their payment for that one.).

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 22 2011, 08:38 PM

I haven't GM'd a group long enough to get them to the big leagues (I like to start small. Like breaking in to a Ganger HQ to rescue a kid, or infiltrating the local mall to alter records. Most of the group was also new to the game, though) so the Johnson's are usually not professional J's. The last one, was an NPC runner looking for a group that could get him out of the area. The meet happened in neutral territory (an unused warehouse) and they only got to talk to him after they rescued him from the Biodrone tracker/retrieval unit.

They weren't happy, in fact, the mage got her throat ripped out (I use severe damage rules), and they are currently part of the local police's checkpoint. Being inspected by K-9...

(The Johnson is still with them)

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 22 2011, 09:52 PM

He's not (or shouldn't be) the one hiring anyone. Mr. Johnson is as much a deniable asset as the team is.

Instead, he was hired by someone who hired someone to go out and contact known fixers in order to meet with the runners in order to hire them for the person who hired the guy who hired him. At the very least for corporate-sponsored runs. Underworld and "little people" hirings either don't need or don't have the resources to go through all that trouble, and in the case of the latter they're not nearly as concerned about the "deniable asset" part.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 22 2011, 10:38 PM

Actually, I use a third category as much as possible. Every largish organization has its own troubleshooter(s). They might be part of the organization, they might be part of a personal staff, doesn't matter. Their job is to take care of it when normal procedures are not what are needed - deniability being the most typical reason.

Such a person always sets up a scapegoat in the corporation in case it's necessary.

Posted by: Wakshaani Oct 23 2011, 03:00 AM

Yeah, that's one that I use but most others rarely use, I think.

Johnson is a Fixer, more or less, an intermediary between you and your client... the client needs a job done, so gets a Mr Johnson to act as the hiring agent.

Johnson sits at one end of teh table, the team at the other, and the Fixer *might* act as a go-between, depending on the team's relationship and whether or not they have their own faceman to handle contract negotiations. Johnson is USUALLY not the client.

Usually.

An example of this might be Mercy Graves, hiring for Lex Luthor ... she's clearly a rogue operative in his organization, a bad apple, and he wants to thank you for ferreting out such a traitor. (cough cough).

You also have what I call "Mrs Smith", which is a client-Johnson combination, usually someone who's never done this sort of thing, has no idea how it's supposed to work, relying heavily on trid/sim programs. They're nervous, they speak in badly broken codewords, they seek out seedy bars because "That's how it's done, right?" and they usually don't pay that well... but th ejobs are usually easy, it's good karma, and sometimes the intel you wind up with is astounding. Good ways to try out new team members, too. If they can't handle a "Mrs Smith" run, they'll never work on a Johnson run.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 23 2011, 04:34 AM

I agree with you. Realistically & honestly, IC distrust should stop me from going on the run. However, there are runs in which some solo folk have to work with others. My character is a gunbunny. If I have to work with a hacker on something, so be it. I don't know the guy/girl or really trust them... but I have to accept that its a part of the job. That's why I've been IC keep going with these people. Cause I need to get the job done. Plus I have no desire to get rid of my character, just to bring in a new guy so a clean slate can be had.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Oct 23 2011, 05:46 AM

Well, its moot now. The entire party died on a run. New slate for everyone.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Oct 23 2011, 07:11 AM

Whilst moot, there was always the possibility it was a test.

"If the Runner's can't get in to see me without getting arrested, they are not good enough for me to hire."

Posted by: CanRay Oct 23 2011, 08:17 AM

Know when to retreat.

Posted by: kzt Oct 23 2011, 09:04 AM

Yes. And know when to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIzCUhafhSQ

Posted by: CanRay Oct 23 2011, 05:26 PM

Bob Hauk: "You going to kill me, Snake?"
Snake Plissken: "Not now, I'm too tired. [pause] Maybe later." - Escape From New York

Posted by: Zoot Oct 24 2011, 03:52 PM

Well, the Missions scenarios specifically say the Johnson will only pay for the runners who show at the meet. So send a proxy. Or several...


To boost our numbers we hired some porn extras (one of the characters is a pornstar/hacker. don't ask. no seriously, the first rule of porn club is we don't talk about porn club). We briefed them it was an improv audition for a Carl Combat Mage spin-off and fed them lines wirelessly. Our 2 man party got paid for 6 runners. got paid 9k per head, paid the extras 200 each. Sweet.

Posted by: Midas Oct 25 2011, 06:26 AM

There are all manner of Johnsons in SR canon, from the nervous newb to the smooth-talking AAA corp troubleshooter. The former may let their mask slip a little through nerves or naivety, but the latter will take all manner of precautions often including disguise and a fake commlink leading to a red herring corp (with their 'real' commlink turned off until they are well away from the meet and sure they are not being followed).

The Fixer is the glue that binds the Johnson to the runners - he/she vouches for the deniable assets and tells the J that they are capable of getting the job done, and also vouches for the Johnson to the runners, having confirmed that the Johnson is good for the payment. The Fixer will have connections with a number of clients and runner teams, and he/she neither wants to lose these valuable assets or his paying clients. Hence, if the run goes south the fixer will be screaming blue murder to the runners, and if the Johnson double-crosses the runners the fixer will do his/her best to help them out. Fixers live and die on their contacts and reputation, so they want to take their cut and see both runners and clients walk away satisfied.

As for the meet, it can be done virtually or face-to-face, and the GM should make sure it takes place in a variety of locations, spice of life and all that. In general, the Johnson will choose a place where they can be anonymous; after all, should the runners hose up and get captured or killed, the Johnson will not want to have been seen with them by anyone who could join the dots and connect the Johnson to the run. Hence the staple meet location of a back room in a random restaurant/bar which the Johnson can pay for anonymously in cash/certified credstick. The zoo and the funfair are also legitimate anonymous places for a meet.

If the Johnson wants to meet all the runners, he/she may have to compromise on a location which all the PCs can access, or just meet with those runners who can get in. You takes your choices ...

Posted by: Midas Oct 25 2011, 06:29 AM

YMMV, but that wouldn't wash in my game, not unless the fixer was gonna vouch for a bunch of porn extras. And no fixer worth his reputation would be prepared to do that ...

Posted by: Wakshaani Oct 25 2011, 01:44 PM

The Fixer's also there to keep both sides relatively unsure of the other side's ID, even if he knows it.

Should the PCs start sniffing around Johnson's ID, the Fixer should step in and be, like, "Look, I told you he was legit. EIther you trust me on this or find another deal-maker." ... Johnson's employer relies on being a deniable resource, just as he needs the Shadowrunners as deniable assets. When names come out, everybody's in trouble.

Similarly, the Fixer won't call you 'Jeff' in front of the Johnson, even if you married his brother. You get to be 'Mad Dog' as long as an outsider is around.

So, the groupings look like:

Shadowrunners --> Fixer --> neutral <-- Johnson <-- Client

SOmetimes, Johnson *is* the Client, but usually not.

(edit)
Oh, and, yes, teh Fixer's rep is on the line, almost as much as your own. Trying to scam the Johnson makes the fixer look bad and hurts his business. Never a good idea.

Posted by: Paul Oct 25 2011, 02:15 PM

To be honest that's one of many reasons why I don't use any of the Missions stuff. I can see the appeal to some people, but I generate my own stuff, and like ti that way.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 25 2011, 02:59 PM

But it's not like any of this is commonly accepted. In other groups, not doing a personal and thorough background check on the J might constitute a possibly lethal oversight... you just shouldn't get caught doing it.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 25 2011, 04:14 PM

It also depends on the Shadowculture of the area. Not all Biz is run like it is in Seattle.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 26 2011, 03:28 PM

I tend to think in-person meets are better for security. Even if you encrypt your communications to the nth degree, anything on the matrix ends up in the deep resonance, right? So any Technnomancer with level 1 immersion can fish out your conversation. Plus, most Johnsons, I imagine, would want to get a look at the team they're hiring.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 26 2011, 03:45 PM

Nothing is really secure, though. There are about a thousand ways to compromise a meat meet. The fact is that some people use e-presence, therefore everyone can.

And technomancers are magic BS.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 26 2011, 04:30 PM

Yerameyahu already addressed the security issue. It's harder than you'd think IN CONJUNCTION WITH maintaining deniability.

My actual laugh, however, was about wanting to look at the team they're hiring. Why?

Seriously. First, there's the matter of witnesses and moles. The more people, the more ways things can go sideways.

Second -- so I can see the person the face says is their tech. And seeing them tells me what, exactly? Oooh, the face says the troll is the team muscle, and that's certainly stereotypical. But is it true? And as Mr. Johnson how the crap do I tell if she is or if she's a mage wearing armor and carrying a big gun she can't use for squat? After all, I sure as crap don't want her to draw and use it at the meet.

For somewhat experienced Johnsons I like sole contact meets. Meat with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight, but preferably on the matrix because that's actually easier to secure AND less likely to let you identify me. Add an agreeable escrow drop of bearer-type credsticks (you can verify they're there, I know you won't get them till I send the release), and it's workable for us both. (Yes, you and I can both still screw with that situation, but it is harder.)

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 26 2011, 05:37 PM

I find it amusing that in your world, Johnsons show up to meets alone, and rely only on their own powers of observation. I suppose it all depends on the type of clients you're working with. For a corp Johnson, it'd be trivial to have a team during an in-person meet astrally scanned (which would turn up your mage in disguise, for example). Getting a look at the team isn't so much about figuring out who's who as it is about observing the runners and how they carry themselves in public. If you set up a meet in a nightclub and their face can't even manage to get them past the bouncers, or their Troll is picking fights in line, then clearly these aren't the "professionals" the fixer told you they were.

If anonymity is the key for the Johnson, then a Matrix meet makes sense, though once again, there is no security measure that can stop a TM from retrieving the info from the Deep Resonance. If, however, the team is unknown to the Johnson and the job requires quality work, nothing will beat direct observation.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 26 2011, 05:51 PM

Are you telling me that the Johnson is going to look at the team and say, "Nope, I don't want you and your team"? or rather, that it happens with any frequency in your world? Seriously, does that happen often in your world?

As for meeting alone, it's a matter of definition. In fact, reread my earlier post: "with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight". Think about it a bit. Mr. Johnson isn't the boss. Mr. Johnson is the person with the authority to negotiate and agree. If he's corp, he's got a max limit. (If he's like a lot of corps, he may get a bonus based on how much he doesn't spend.)

If he's newby independent he may not HAVE a team, it's just him negotiating for an extraction. If so, he's one guy facing... your TEAM? who might be working for the people who do NOT want him to leave?

If I'm good enough and connected enough to have a team to check out your team, I can do it before the meet. Every member of my security who's present is another person from whom you can pick up information I don't want to give. Two of us, your face and me, with our security outside a 200 or 500 meter perimeter after mutually clearing the meet site. No crowds that say "Look, a meeting". No need to get a bunch of people in and out. No need to watch a whole bunch of directions.

So yes, in my world one on one is fairly common. Especially if there are over-augmented gorillas with control issues around.

Posted by: Paul Oct 26 2011, 05:55 PM

If we do have a physical meet, with an actual employer, and not a cut out-it's not uncommon for those individuals to have security arrangements, and to have done back ground checks on the team. Even if it's an independent they're like to have a cousin or a friend they can trust as nearby as they can reasonably get away with.

The Fixer my current group of player characters deal with has multiple layers of security. Some is more intrusive than the others-but it starts with a roll of quarters and goes up from there!

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 26 2011, 06:20 PM

The whole point of Mr. Johnson is that he, too, is a deniable asset. He's an extra layer between the employers and the runners. He (should) only has basic information about the runners via the Fixer, and the runners (should) know little to nothing about who the Johnson is working for. And the Fixer doesn't want to know who the Johnson is working for; he's just an agent for the runners. The fewer details he knows about anything going on, the better. The Johnson may not even know who he's working for; he's a contracted negotiator and get-the-job-done man. And, even bettern whoever hired the Johnson has no idea who the runners are, hence the deniability bit.

That's the ideal set-up and the entire point of a Fixer and a Mr. Johnson. I'm not saying that's how most groups use them, but it is the point of those contact archetypes.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 26 2011, 06:42 PM

A fair question. Realistically, it *should* happen to Shadowrunners who don't know how to act in public. Now, I don't know what your groups are like, but I've been in plenty of groups where there's at least one guy who does crazy/stupid stuff. He makes the game fun, but there should be consequences for when it goes too far.


As I said, I would expect a corp Johnson to at least be able to pull together some magical/astral backup without issue. I don't think a newbie independent Johnson without the resources to vet a team before an operation is cut out for the business, to be honest. I'm not saying that online meetups never happen, or are even rare; I'm saying that depending in the circumstances, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a Johnson would call for an in-person meet.


There's a middle ground between "I can't be bothered to check you out at all" and "I will spend money to have every member of your team stalked by professionals before the meet". At least in my mind.


I could argue the point re: security teams, but I'd rather not. Your reasons are sound. I'm not talking about giant security teams on-site either; just the traditional bar/nightclub meeting.

Posted by: Midas Oct 27 2011, 08:31 AM

IRL business people will travel to the other side of the world at considerable expense to their companies to meet face-to-face with clients despite the fact a video conference would cost their companies nothing - perhaps it is just a hang-up of our species, but in terms of engendering trust face-to-face is the way to go. Same goes (at least on my table) for SR, although a few Johnsons might prefer meeting virtually the majority probably prefer a meat meet. As other posters have pointed out, technomancers could breach security of matrix meets (although with all that data floating out there, they would have to know EXACTLY what to look for), so meets in private rooms in nightclubs/bars/restaurants are probably also the best way for the Johnson to ensure anonymity. And yes, unless they are a newb or a one-off Johnson they WILL bring security.

As for this one-to-one with both sides security sweeping and securing a 200m or 500m perimeter and then hanging back, not exactly subtle is it? To the casual observer such precautions would scream of "oh, a secret meet, might be interesting to eavesdrop" should they have the skills and inclination.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 01:26 PM

Your table, of course, but are you honestly comparing current video conference tech to SR's matrix immersion and calling them "the same"?

Yes, as others have noted technomancers, and for that matter standard hackers, can breach security of matrix meets. Bluntly, given knowledge the meet is happening and the constraints of an attempt at deniability (shadows) all meets can have their security breached. Matrix meets are no more and no less secure for information. And they're a lot MORE secure for issues like leaving ritual-worthy traces and evidence, not to mention avoiding lurking assassins.

Finally, yep the full sweep is observable - depending on where the sweep is happening. Of course you have to see the sweep, recognize it's newsworthy, then figure out how to evade that security enough to get into the "private" meet.

That said, as I've stated earlier I actually prefer a different set of places for meat meets. Zoos, malls (access hallways), and amusement parks are favorites for me.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Oct 27 2011, 03:48 PM

No, he isn't, he's just pointing out that in spite of logic, people still spend thousands of dollars to meet face to face when any form of long distance communication would work just as well. Why would that change just because the communication methods have gotten more sophisticated?

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 04:59 PM

Because improving communications have been reducing the number of such thousand dollar meets.

Or, wait. You two weren't thinking that I'm saying ALL face to face meets will be gone, were you? No, just most -- just as today, which while face to face meets do indeed happen a lot more happen over the telephone and by teleconferencing.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 05:08 PM

The reason face-to-face meets are so prevalent in Shadowrun is because of how ridiculously, stupidly, uberly powerful deckers/hackers are in the setting. There's no security measure they can't get around in the game, even against other hackers. Thus if you want to set up a conference call, you can almost guarantee someone is going to record it and use it against you, courtesy of the mysterious "pay data" they can find on any host/system/network/walkingdownMainStreet.

At least in face-to-face meetings you can scan for listening devices and have a significantly better chance of avoiding that.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 27 2011, 05:41 PM

Are you seriously comparing the way people communicate with long-term business partners and industry peers to the way that a corporate black-ops coordinator would communicate with a gang of off-the-grid criminals that he's hiring for the first time?

Posted by: CanRay Oct 27 2011, 05:41 PM

And some nice white noise generators, low-range signal jammers, and other such fun devices. It also cuts out the really bad band that's "playing" their latest "song".

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 05:50 PM

You're the one who brought the concept to the table. Something about people paying thousands of dollars to do face to face...

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 27 2011, 05:55 PM

Um....no I'm not. Regardless, the guy who did still has a point. Regardless of the type of business they're in, people prefer to meet in person when it really counts.

Posted by: Paul Oct 27 2011, 05:55 PM

I think there is room for both virtual and "press the flesh" style meetings in the game. In the end I think it all comes down to personal preference. In a more Pink Mohawk style game MR. Johnson might not flinch at the presence of heavy weaponry. (Nice Mortar you have there Kill Master!) In a more Noir game even a heavy pistol may be frowned upon. There's no wrong way, only the way that you have fun with at your table.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 06:00 PM

You're right as to not being you. I apologize.

Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see current life being valid when it supports one side of an argument and ridiculed when it supports the other side.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 27 2011, 06:07 PM

That's not exactly what's going on here.

He questioned the wisdom of extrapolating that improvements in technology would make in-person meeting rare because, historically, this has not been the case. People have continued meeting in-person after the invention of the telegraph, telephone, cell phone, and video conferencing. His argument isn't based on "current life"; it's based on the arc of human history. Specifically, that face-to-face meeting creates trust.

Once trust has been established, then conducting shadow business via the Matrix makes a lot more sense, unless one of the parties is extremely paranoid. Both in-person and Matrix meets have their ups and downs, but I really don't think the game's mechanics support the idea that Matrix meets are either more secure or less dangerous than in-person meets.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 06:59 PM

Ah, but I didn't say ALL meetings would be electronic. I said a lot, and possibly most.

Just as today many, and arguably most, meetings are done electronically. I've got business people with whom I've dealt for some time that I've never met face to face, just as an example here.

As Paul notes there's room for either being dominant depending on your worldview. In mine, I crunched the numbers and came up with matrix meets being "safer" for the Johnson in most cases.

In fairness, I'm also biased by looking at the way matrix neuters most pornomancer tricks. Sure, direct increases to charisma (frex Increase attribute spell) work. But smells and kinetic reading and all those sorts of things go away. Though it's not stated as such, I can see a lot of corporate policies that require final decisions on people being made outside the reach of those people just to prevent tricks like this being effective.

Meat meets will happen. In my view of the world, matrix meets are the more common version when "professionals" are involved. ymwv.

Posted by: JonathanC Oct 27 2011, 07:06 PM

Nobody has accused you of saying that "ALL" meetings would be electronically; the issue here is the assertion that "most" Shadowrun meets would be electronic. If we're talking about standard business meetings in 2070, then I'd be likely to agree with you.

Even today though...I work for a software company, and while we do a *ton* of conferencing with Skype and Go2Meeting, we send salespeople all over the place to talk with clients in person. Why? Because in-person demos are more meaningful than watching someone show you something on a computer screen from thousands of miles away.



It's almost nothing for a Johnson to have an internal air supply to neuter pheremones, if you're worried about that. I don't even think I'd bother; charisma isn't mind control, and if the Johnson is sent with a maximum of up-front cash on a credstick, there's nothing the players can do to squeeze more out of him.

Besides, if working via the Matrix provided the kind of guaranteed anonymity you're talking about, corps wouldn't need to use Johnsons at all, and they could probably stop hiring Shadowrunners for like 50% of their jobs.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 07:44 PM

heh - I never even mentioned mind control or any of those sorts of things. No, not correcting you, indicating that it's another reason Mr. Johnson might want to make the deal remotely...


Not guaranteed anonymity; a decent degree of anonymity helped by a large obscurity factor for meetings. Meetings aren't jobs.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 07:47 PM

They just supply all the names, places, details, and faces about the job. You're right, who cares if that gets hacked (and hacked SO easily by SO many)?

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 08:26 PM

OK, Ol' Scratch.

How do the bad guys know about the meeting to be able to hack into it?

Posted by: Paul Oct 27 2011, 08:34 PM

You need to watch more TV! And read cheap fiction! C'mon folks I get the desire to make the game feature some realism, so that we can relate to it, and stuff-but seriously folks loosen up. I mean I hate the PM's and we still manage to laugh at our table. It's roleplaying not an induction into the seminary.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 08:41 PM

Oh, I do plenty of that. Thing is that everything I know from those that lets them know for matrix meets also works for meat meets. What, the commlink is tapped? Then wasn't the connection with the fixer that led to the meet known already? Yes, it was. So the meat meet is just as vulnerable to a fly-spy or some stealth RFIDs being slipped into the room.

Ol' Scratch (for one) is at least implying that matrix meets are MORE vulnerable to the cheap fiction tricks, and so there's only One True Way. I say there are multiple ways and matrix, while having its own vulnerabilities, avoids meat vulnerabilities. And the "the bad guys know everything" vulnerability is just as easily done in meat as matrix.

Posted by: Paul Oct 27 2011, 08:46 PM

Agreed. Completely!

Posted by: Iduno Oct 27 2011, 08:57 PM

What about using datajacks to perform the meeting in the meat? It's wired, and it's silent. Not everyone has a datajack, but it seems like a secure way to communicate.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 09:15 PM

My opinion:
If the Bad Guys know the meeting is going to happen, they're going to find a way to intercept/monitor. Or interfere, if that's appropriate.
[edited to add] As an example, hack into Mr. Johnson's commlink ahead of time and have it record the meeting.

Setting that worry aside, the primary advantage matrix holds over meat for Mr. Johnson is security from the Runners.

How many missions have you been on where immediately after the meeting as much time is spent identifying Mr. Johnson and his (possible/probable) hidden agenda as is spent on the mission and the bad guys Mr. Johnson identified?

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 10:19 PM

That's a fault of individual game tables in my opinion. Unless there was a genuine reason to suspect the Johnson of double-crossing you, tracking down and identifying them every time is going to tank your reputation faster than just about anything.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 27 2011, 10:19 PM

Which is why you do it only when you feel something is wrong...

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 10:21 PM

That's what I just said.

Kirk was suggesting that it was a regular occurrence.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 27 2011, 10:31 PM

I've read as many PbPs and game discussions as I can find. In the vast majority, someone checks out Mr. Johnson. Further, it's frequently discussed on this and other forums.

That leads me to believe it is a regular occurrence. Not regular as "always" as there are some who do not, but regular as in most typical action.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 10:32 PM

And again, that's what I said. It's a fault at individual game tables/games. It shouldn't be a regular occurrence, because if it is, no one's going to trust you. No one's going to hire you. No one's going to want anything to do with you whatsoever, because they know you'll be tracking them down and completely destroying the entire point of the whole thing.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 11:35 PM

Agreed. At some point, you have to trust the fixer-Johnson-etc. chain. Not doing so is going to require more expertise than your actual runs, more time than your actual runs, and make you unemployable as a shadowrunner. That doesn't mean 'trust 100%' and never do any checking; it means you can't trust 0% and constantly do all the checking. Even with a server farm of agents.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 28 2011, 01:44 AM

"I have four hundred toasters hooked up with Agent Programs just collecting data for me at all times! They're in a warehouse with the power coming from an illegal tap." "Frag man, what do you normally use them for?" "Mostly to find new porn that's available on the Matrix. And to filter out all the stuff I don't want."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 28 2011, 02:56 AM

In 20 years of playing the game, in several states and countries (ie. Multiple tables), I (and the people I game with) have only ever "Checked out the Johnson" a handful of times; and only in those instances where something seemed a bit hinky to start with. Now, that being said, on those occasions where the Johnson Screwed us, and we had not done our "research" before hand, we still had the files and videos to perform the search/research after the fact. It may have been a bit more difficult, but you will likely have a place (or several) to start.

Performing such research before hand, in all cases, will quickly lead to you being unemployable.

Posted by: Midas Oct 28 2011, 06:00 AM

The odds are if you are about to sign a big deal with a client, it will happen face-to-face. Most if not all Shadowruns will potentially net the Johnson-as-client or the Johnson's client big money, hence I would argue that meat meets are more common than matrix ones. This position that seems to be held up by SR canon, with meat meets much more common than their virtual equivalent in published adventures and missions. At my table matrix meets are generally held more by geeky tech-savvy Johnsons and beginner Johnsons who might be a bit unnerved at meeting big bad runners in the flesh, but YMMV.

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that virtual meets are "safer" for the Johnson - in general the Johnson chooses the venue and sets up with his security first, and if the runners are "professional" they should know better than to geek the Johnson. As for third-party ambushes, well the Johnson is probably screwed anyway if the security of their deal has been compromised.

As for pornomancer tricks, what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and there are ways to counter pheremones. Also, at the end of the day, the Johnson has a hard max on what he will pay for the run; and if the runners really are good enough to talk themselves up a pay increase, they are that much more likely to succeed in their mission so fair doos.

Posted by: Midas Oct 28 2011, 06:22 AM

Granted if the bad guys know the meet is going to happen they probably will try their best to find a way to intercept/moniter, but like folks have said it may not be as easy in the meat. Hacking the Johnson's commlink? Like I said before, if he/she is even semi-competent he won't have it turned on during the meet. Fly-spy drones and bugs? Again, I would presume any semi-competent J would sweep the meet room before the PCs arrive. Eavesdrop by laser-microphone or whatnot? If the backroom ain't equipped with a white noise generator, I am sure the Johnson will bring one to the party. Magical eavesdropping? If the Johnson is worried about that, he will probably choose a warded room for the meet.

As for matrix meets giving the Johnson "security from the runners", really? You mentioned before about matrix meets being for "professionals", and then you give the most incompetent unprofessional thing runners can do as a reason for not meeting face-to-face. What gives?

I will admit that the SR fluff is a little schizophrenic about checking out the Johnson. The fluff says it is considered unprofessional, but then there have been published adventures where it is assumed the PCs will check out the Johnson. I side with the fluff in this case. I mean, how would PCs react if they heard someone (the Johnson) was asking around about them, trying to find out where they hang out and where they live? In all probability they would go ballistic and move to neutralize this threat; for the Johnson trying to maintain deniability the reaction would be the same. I think Ol' Scratch and Can Ray have it right, in that the PCs should only move to check out the Johnson if their Scooby-sense is tingling telling them something is not quite right, or in the event that the Johnson double-crosses them.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 28 2011, 09:30 AM

And how so? Seriously, you're playing a game. Do you, as the GM, tell your players "Sorry, we have to make new characters because your old ones checked out all the J's and now noone wants to hire you."?

As a player I would certainly protest.

I also think there are differences to the degree of checking people out. First, the fixer should have checked out the J. No J could hope to find a professional (i.e. reputed) team without being checking out. Only beginner teams get the newbie johnsons, unless they set themselves up like the A-team or something and specifically take jobs from non-professionals. Secondly, there are checks that don't need asking around or posting on message boards - in any case I would say that is the crudest method. But a matrix search with image recognition and other stuff should happen, IMHO. It's not like the J won't try to check out the team, too.

I think there's a fine line to walk, here: J's want the most professional teams for their high-risk jobs, but obviously they still want them to be a deniable or even disposable asset. There will be tons of rabble offering their services, but a capable team will be harder to find. And so what do you do? IMHO it's a virtual necessity to check out the J in a non-intrusive way. Johnsons that don't like this very soon won't find capable teams, or will have to pay a lot more for them. The equation works both ways. The fluff is full of manipulative Johnsons who have an agenda that will eventually lead to problems. Usually for that to work out well for the runners the GM has to pull punches, or else it never would end up good.

Look, the INITIAL story of the SR4 sourcebook is about a J double-cross. Sersiously, if that's not full indication that you're supposed to distrust the J, then what is?

Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 28 2011, 10:03 AM

What kind of game is being played? Pink mohawk? Or black trenchcoat? (or variations inbetween)...This seems like the best indicator of how much the PCs need to dig in to the J's backstory, and how carefully.

On another note, I always see SR meets as coming together because of your fixer. If you trust your fixer, you don't worry about the J so much. If you have a really crappy fixer, maybe you're more nervous...

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 28 2011, 11:37 AM

Well, in Pink Mohawk I don't need to check because I won't care how many things go wrong. In fact, I'll want them to.


I can trust the fixer, but how far? I trust the fixer to get me a job contract while trying to cover his own base. And the fixer is basically always straddling a chasm with crocodiles snapping for his balls, anyway. Basically the fixer is staking his very existence on the trustworthyness of both sides, because if things go bad between them, both sides might come knocking to him, and he's the only one with basically stationary assets. If he burns his bridges and goes under, then he'll be out of the game, because those bridges are his life. So, ok, that should make him both reliable but also very cautious, unless he's a gambler for high stakes. It still doesn't say anything about how turstworthy a Johnson really is, because when push comes to shove, it's still someone at the bottom of the food chain who will take the fall.

So, I'll maintain my position: Runners SHOULD try to cover their asses, because all the deals where they aren't supposed to usually end up going sour. However, obviously they have to play the game: If their inquiries become too obvious they'll be dropped. It's in the nature of clandestine business that you have to keep your knowledge, and your safeguards, to yourself.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Oct 28 2011, 12:12 PM

...I just imagined a jury-rigged "white noise generator" in the form of a dildo duct-taped to a suction cup, placed on the window and turned on. As long as it works...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 28 2011, 01:02 PM

If your Johnson's dry up, you do your own thing. It happens. In fact, the current game I am in (On Fridays) is at that point right now. We are not being hired, not because of excessive unprofessionalism in checking out the Johnson, but because Most of the team has a reputation for not getting out of bed for less than 50k, and when the negotiations start, Johnsons are walking. Currently we are being hunted by a Johnson whom the team has screwed. Does not help that 2 of the team are heavily into advertisement. One from the P20 crap that he has become involved in, and the other, becasue his ego is so damned big (in his defense, he IS a Troll with an attitude, also does not help that his Notoriety is a 6, and he is proud of that). It seems that all of our prospects have dried up. Sucks, but there you go. It is a part of the story, and the team only has themselves to blame.



At most of our tables, we rely upon the Fixer for vetting. The Fixer is responsible for the connections after all. He verifies to the team that the Johnson is on the up and upo, and then he verifies to the Johnson that the team is professional and capable. Does this always work? No, but then the Fixer is the first person that is on the chopping block, from either side, becasue he controls the connections. His reputation is on the line, from both sides.



And you will notice that the investigation into the Johnson did not occur until after they got screwed over.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 28 2011, 01:07 PM

Well, from what I remember they didn't follow their hunches initially, which got them into the mess, so... they should have done their homework. If they had, they would not have lost team members.

This is exactly the problem: You don't trust your life on the word of a guy you don't REALLY know well. So unless that fixer is a loyalty 4-5+ connection I shouldn't really trust him.

Posted by: Wakshaani Oct 28 2011, 03:09 PM

Absolutely and on a regular basis.

Runner teams looking for work are getting, in effect, job interviews. Each team is being presented to Johnson based (hopefully!) on their qualifications, then they have to win the guy over. Bidding wars are common, wipeouts from behavior happen, different crews build up rivalries, and your reputation grows or tanks for lots of reasons.

Johnson runs down a vague list of what he wants to do with half a dozen teams, easy, before finally selecting one from the pool.

So, yeah, if teh RUnners push for too much, or if they act goony, or they aren't respectful enough, or ... well, any number of things can keep them from ever getting the job.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 28 2011, 03:53 PM

This is an excellent point.

It is true that sometimes job interviews in real life are done remotely.

However, ask yourself, what percentage are done face-to-face? And why is that?

Also, if you want to get the best of both worlds, security of a physical lockdown face-to-face with the disabling of many runner social boosting techniques, have the Johnson bring a wireless-disabled nexus to the meet, and insist the runners jack in to discuss "business" in the virtual space of the nexus.


-k

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 28 2011, 03:57 PM

Alright, so, you prepare a run, your players are looking forward to it, you let the meet happen, and the J turns them down. Then what? You wing over two weeks of downtime, get a new meet with a new J but the same run, because it's already prepared? In the meantime your playes have started peddling stolen goods because they have to pay for their lifestyles.

Basically, what should be happening is that there is a selection process behind the scenes: The J calls the fixer, and the fixer picks a team. That team is the group of PCs. And in order to let things fit together, it's your job as the GM to make sure to give them fitting runs, at least at this stage. You can't give a team without a hacker a matrix-heavy data-steal, nor can you give a team without a sam a brute-force extraction job. But that pre-selection should have happened by the time the team and the J sit down together. Anything else is icing on the cake, just a few tests to see whether the fixer did a good job in picking that team.

Just my opinion.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 28 2011, 04:17 PM

Exactly. That's the whole point of a Fixer. The runners use them as their agents, finding jobs suitable to their talents. The Johnsons use them to find runners suitable to their jobs. If a Johnson gets a group that doesn't meet his requirements, or their Fixer keeps setting the runners up with idiotic jobs they never stood a chance of getting, then it's the Fixer's (aka, GM's) fault and his reputation is on the line. And considering that's the brunt of a Fixer's role, having a bad reputation for getting people together is obviously not good for business.

People have some really odd ideas about how this arrangement works.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 28 2011, 04:22 PM

If something crazy *does* happen, charge the players for a month's lifestyle (or fraction thereof) and reboot. Stupid Tax.

Posted by: Wakshaani Oct 29 2011, 02:16 AM

[quote name='Brainpiercing7.62mm' date='Oct 28 2011, 03:57 PM' post='1118337']
Alright, so, you prepare a run, your players are looking forward to it, you let the meet happen, and the J turns them down. Then what? You wing over two weeks of downtime, get a new meet with a new J but the same run, because it's already prepared? In the meantime your playes have started peddling stolen goods because they have to pay for their lifestyles.

Basically, what should be happening is that there

Posted by: Midas Oct 29 2011, 06:00 AM

What part of the word "deniability" don't you understand? Let's say the PCs get hired for a run against a corp, the whole thing goes pear-shaped and corpsec arrest the runners. If they have information leading the corp straight to the Johnson they might be tempted to take a lighter sentence by ratting the J out, and if they don't there is always torture, drugs, mind probe or a cocktail of all three to force the info out of the runners.

Knowing WHO a Johnson is means you also more than likely know where he works and where he lives, or can find out easily enough. For runners who cling to the shadows, knowing their street name doesn't mean much and if they are not wanabees will not lead you straight to their doorstep. I think most runners would not want a J knowing where they live, and the Johnson is no different except that he probably lives overtly on sunny street and has that much more to lose.

This is why checking out the Johnson without good reason is considered bad form. Obviously YMMV, and if you play things differently on your table that is fine by me.

Oh, and good luck with the facial recognition against the professional J who wears big sunglasses just to prevent such a possibility ...

Posted by: Midas Oct 29 2011, 06:07 AM

And this is exactly the in-game reason that magic-heavy groups tend to get magic-heavy runs and vica versa. Fred the Fixer gets a run against a magical Azzie subsidiary, who's he gonna call? Simon the Shaman and his all-Awakened associates (or insert your MagicRun PC group name here), of course!

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Oct 29 2011, 06:43 AM

Big sunglasses? More likely nanopaste disguise at the minimum, or temporary facial reconstruction surgery, modifications to vocal cords and fingerprints, change of skin, eye and hair colour, and restyling,

All of those are pretty minor things to have done in the Shadowrun world, for somebody with money.

all topped off with a completely anonymous off-the rack actioneer suit.

No corporate Johnson has any need to be identified at a face to face meet unless he or she wishes to be.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 29 2011, 08:21 AM

Don't forget the misdirection, either. The Horizon Johnson might wear a conservative suit, the Ares Johnson might have a Japanese-cut suit and a Fuchi corporate pin, and the Aztechnology Johnson might sound like a good ole boy from Texas. Hacking their throwaway commlink or running their (disguised) face against a database might give misleading results, too.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 30 2011, 11:36 AM

All of these (and above) are valid, but that still doesn't mean you don't try to check him out. There are obviously lines you should not cross, unless you're really sure of yourself. Tagging him or his car, hacking the fixer for info, even hacking the J's disposable commlink. These sort of things I would not do, unless there is a reason. Magical observation is a finer line to cross. It's inherently passive and non-intrusive (as long as you're keeping astral overwatch, anyway), and undetectable, but probably provides some valid info for the case when you really do need to find the guy later, for instance via spirit search. You might also sweep the place of the meet afterwards (if you have the resources, that is) for stuff that might provide a magical link. And there isn't really a handle except politeness to stop you.

I'm never saying that you should necessarily get any info with these checks, but IMHO you should be doing them, nonetheless. As a GM, when I would want the players to know that they should be digging for more info, I should drop some hints.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 30 2011, 01:29 PM

The thing I'm not getting in all the "don't check out Mr. Johnson" calls is this.

How's he going to know you're checking him out?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 30 2011, 02:22 PM

Because it's hard to do anything quietly. I liked that they incorporated rules for this in Eclipse Phase, and they're very appropriate for SR.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 30 2011, 03:38 PM

You can investigate the target quietly, but you can't investigate Mr. Johnson?

OK.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 30 2011, 03:50 PM

Depends on the target.

Mr. Johnson knows to watch out for you investigating him/her. The target might not. It's a lot easier to notice something when you know what direction it's coming from.

Which, of course, is why Shadowrunners have Contacts, preferably ones that aren't well known to be connected with said Shadowrunners.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 30 2011, 04:00 PM

Most full-time regular Johnsons SHOULD expect some level of them being checked out. As long as it's not too aggressive most should not overly mind, since they really should have already locked down any information about themselves they don't want getting out. All part of the job.

The Johnsons you have to watch for are the inexperienced ones. The guys who don't normally do this kinda thing, the ones that are just starting out, the guys who don't know how the game is played. Their reactions to the runners investigating them will be unpredictable.



-k

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Oct 30 2011, 04:37 PM

That's pretty much how I see it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 30 2011, 04:49 PM

That hasn't been my position at all, Kirk, but maybe you chose not to keep up with the thread. Earlier, I specifically said that you can/should check into the Johnson *some*, but not excessively. The deeper you dig, the louder it gets. In addition, anonymity is the total function of a Mr. Johnson, so we can presume they're paying attention more than some random target, which presumably has many primary functions to worry about. The Mr. Johnson expects you to do the normal amount of checking, and probably has layers of identity specifically arranged for that purpose; no one said he'd wig out if you Google him.

Posted by: Kirk Oct 30 2011, 07:04 PM

Keeping up with the thread?

You responded to my post, Yerameyahu, or so it appeared. That your general position has been "some checking" does not change that appearance.

I agree with your clarification.

Posted by: Midas Oct 31 2011, 03:34 AM

Like you say, tagging the Johnson or TRYING TO hack your Fixer (not the easiest thing to do if he's any good, and if he's not then what data he has on the PCs is insecure as well) is over and above SOP. Hacking the Johnson's disposable commlink may be bad ettiquette, but the pro Johnsons who have no sensitive data on there probably won't kick up a fuss unless they specifically requested the runners not do so.

As for magical observation and material links, like I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Good Johnsons will have a mage of their own to spot astral overwatch or meet in warded areas if they don't; the pros also will not leave material links (just as professional PCs probably won't). Johnsons will probably also take precautions to shake a tail (including a magical one) going to and leaving the meet, all just standard business practices in their line of work.

I guess there is no harm in trying out what you suggest, especially when you consider that there are all manner of Johnsons out there and not all of them are consumate pros, but I would suggest that the ones planning a double-cross will tend to be taking every precaution they can to stop the runners coming back to haunt them anyways.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 31 2011, 03:52 AM

Kirk, I was pointing out that you'd misunderstood me because of missing context, that's all. It *is* hard to do anything quietly, and that *is* the reason not to check into the Mr. Johnson 'too hard'. Not 'none at all'.

I still think a blown recruitment should impose a lifestyle stupid tax.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 31 2011, 05:17 PM

Maybe it's just the Pink Mohawk or my mining town upbringing in me, but it's hard to do anything quietly with the explosives going off everywhere...