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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Minigun attack penalty
Posted by: Krrayn Oct 23 2011, 11:24 PM
This is my first time playing a street sam, so I'm still trying to pick up the nuances of gun-fu combat. Please bear with me.
Last session we picked up a Vindicator minigun. In the side bar in Arsenal on the next page it says that firing a minigun carried a -14 DP penalty to the attack roll. What? why? does this mean if I get maximum agility enhancement to 9 and maximum Heavy Weapons skill to 6, I can get ONE DIE to roll to attack? if my net DP is 0 or less, I can't even fire the thing?
can anyone give me an example of how I might by RAW overcome some of this crippling? Otherwise this gun is just a fifty pound lump of lead worth some 5,000 
at best.
Again, sorry for my ignorance. I did try a search first but couldn't find any sort of explanation.
Thanks in advance!
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 23 2011, 11:41 PM
Recoil. Mount it on a vehicle.
Posted by: Summerstorm Oct 23 2011, 11:42 PM
Hm.. -14?
I thought just double {heavy weapon} of uncompensated recoil. So a raw, unaided shooting is at -28.
But there are so many ways of pushing that down.
Mount it on a vehicle or fit it to the ground = 0 penalty {Or body of Vehicle free}
Or just combine things like Gyroscopic Harness+Super-Strength +Grip+Gasvent+Shock pad or something for like 10 points recoil compensation.
But overall: Yeah. Nobody fires aimed, perfect shots with a damn minigun. And rightly so. Just use it for suppressive fire if you can't handle the awesomeness. And if you can do well enough : Spread the love *g*.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 23 2011, 11:50 PM
Ooh, good point! -28 makes more sense to me. 
Good luck with that, smug trollsam. 
Posted by: Bigity Oct 23 2011, 11:58 PM
Only Jesse Ventura is awsome enough to fire a minigun standing under his own power.
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 12:32 AM
Funny you should ask. Heavy Weapons Troll can do this easily. You want:
-Gyro stabilization system
-Gas Vent 3
-Heavy Barrel
-Personalized Grip/Electronic Firing
-Hip Pad
That gets you 12 points of RC. For the last two points, you need Strength 10 or higher (easily done with a cyberarm), provided your DM allows the optional rules from Arsenal for high strength allowing extra Recoil Comp.
For realism's sake, my GM also ruled that it needed gas vent 3 and heavy barrel six times. This brings Natascha to a grand total of 41,325 nuyen before ammo costs (which are roughly as large as the budget of a third-world country).
Remember, shoot straight and conserve ammunition. Watching your back and never dealing with dragons is also highly recommended. 
Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 24 2011, 12:36 AM
Also, if your dice pool does go to zero or lower, you always have the option of doing a long shot test. That would be, spend a point of edge to roll only your edge on the test in question (no exploding 6's).
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 24 2011, 12:43 AM
Loch, no part of that is 'easily', including the 'easily' Strength 10 arm. I'm glad to hear your GM is good, though.
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 12:46 AM
Easy enough to be doable at chargen
But yeah, you won't really have time for other guns, especially with all the bullets you'll be buying.
Posted by: Dez384 Oct 24 2011, 01:44 AM
But yeah, you won't really have time for other guns, especially with all the bullets you'll be buying.
Your party won't really have time for other guns either.
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 01:51 AM
Hey, they chose not to have 3+ initiative passes.
Posted by: Warlordtheft Oct 24 2011, 01:53 AM
But using a mini-gun, by definition means you are not conserving ammo. So in the end a mini-gun by its very nature is not a good thing for running the shadows. Of course there is the rule of cool....
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 01:59 AM
We're playing a pink mohawk game set in the Caribbean; certain freedoms come with that territory. Not that you'd know it by the black trenchcoat Voodoo mystic we pal around with, but there's no changing some people
Posted by: crash2029 Oct 24 2011, 02:48 AM
-Gyro stabilization system
-Gas Vent 3
-Heavy Barrel
-Personalized Grip/Electronic Firing
-Hip Pad
That gets you 12 points of RC. For the last two points, you need Strength 10 or higher (easily done with a cyberarm), provided your DM allows the optional rules from Arsenal for high strength allowing extra Recoil Comp.
For realism's sake, my GM also ruled that it needed gas vent 3 and heavy barrel six times. This brings Natascha to a grand total of 41,325 nuyen before ammo costs (which are roughly as large as the budget of a third-world country).
Remember, shoot straight and conserve ammunition. Watching your back and never dealing with dragons is also highly recommended.
[/russian accent]"WHO TOUCHED MY GUN?!?"[/russian accent]
Posted by: TeOdio Oct 24 2011, 03:04 AM
Miniguns when not mounted to a troll or a vehicle aren't really finesse weapons. They are lead hoses. Just look up suppression fire rules. Don't bother aiming at your targets. Just get explosive rounds and lay the lead hose on them suppression style and see them dance a jig not to get smacked with 10P damage. Keep them prone with the copious amounts of ammo it has until your teamates get them flanked or take more precise shots on them. Oh, yeah, that move doesn't cost you a dime to implement as well.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 24 2011, 03:15 AM
How many dimes is minigun suppression with explosive rounds? Being prone doesn't really impede you, either… hopefully they don't have S&S.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 24 2011, 04:00 AM
Why no love for Arnie? Just because he was a cyborg...
Posted by: Bodak Oct 24 2011, 04:28 AM
Why no love for http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000882/? Just because he http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093773/quotes?qt0315337...
Posted by: CanRay Oct 24 2011, 05:13 AM
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 24 2011, 05:48 AM
That was Jessie Ventura, right?
BLAM! "I thought I told you not to kill anyone!" "...He'll live"
thanks, now I have to go watch that movie again
Posted by: Makki Oct 24 2011, 07:13 AM
Oh, my Mr Lucky would have fun with a long shot. Although he actually has Agi 3 and Heavy Weapons 1.
"Hey big guy! Give me that Vindibaby. I'll try my luck with it" Rolls 7 dice.
Posted by: Stingray Oct 24 2011, 09:03 AM
-Gyro stabilization system
-Gas Vent 3
-Heavy Barrel
-Personalized Grip/Electronic Firing
-Hip Pad
That gets you 12 points of RC. For the last two points, you need Strength 10 or higher (easily done with a cyberarm), provided your DM allows the optional rules from Arsenal for high strength allowing extra Recoil Comp.
For realism's sake, my GM also ruled that it needed gas vent 3 and heavy barrel six times. This brings Natascha to a grand total of 41,325 nuyen before ammo costs (which are roughly as large as the budget of a third-world country).
Remember, shoot straight and conserve ammunition. Watching your back and never dealing with dragons is also highly recommended.
..adding a Underbarrel weight-mod gives 1 point of rc, so w/ STR 6, u are good to go..
Posted by: Grinder Oct 24 2011, 09:19 AM
Does an underbarrel weight fit at a minigun?
Posted by: Stingray Oct 24 2011, 09:31 AM
only weapon-type that underbarrel weight-mod can not be added is hold-out pistol.
so, minigun w/underbarrel weight -mod do work..
Posted by: Grinder Oct 24 2011, 09:50 AM
Sounds about right. Not.
Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 24 2011, 10:39 AM
Gas vent on a minigun?!
Posted by: Stingray Oct 24 2011, 10:47 AM
Vindicator minigun is a Light Machine gun, Gas vent system can be added to ALL machine guns (if not specially noted for not able to), so yes..
Posted by: Kliko Oct 24 2011, 10:48 AM
A shotgun version of a minigun!
Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 24 2011, 10:50 AM
Ugh, why did they even bother leaving that sidebar in there...
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 11:13 AM
Man, that would be so cool, except that underbarrel weight RC isn't cumulative with gyromount RC...
Posted by: Stingray Oct 24 2011, 11:23 AM
quote name='Loch' date='Oct 24 2011, 02:13 PM' post='1117335']
Man, that would be so cool, except that underbarrel weight RC isn't cumulative with gyromount RC...
[/quote]
..forget about that...
well..
cyberhand w/str enc. mods would do then..
or tossing minigun away and buying regular Heavy/Medium machine gun and modding it would be better option (IMOO)
Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 24 2011, 11:25 AM
Man, that would be so cool, except that underbarrel weight RC isn't cumulative with gyromount RC...
..forget about that...
well..
cyberhand w/str enc. mods would do then..
or tossing minigun away and buying regular Heavy/Medium machine gun and modding it would be better option (IMOO)
Personally, I prefer weapons that aren't as big as all that...
Like an AA-16
Posted by: Stingray Oct 24 2011, 11:33 AM
.. i prefer Assault Rifle for max. for size vice..
assault rifles,heavy/light pistols,SMG's, and machine pistols would do their work, (for shotguns, some like them, some do not..i have no opinion of them..)
if neeeded for heavier firepower, drones fitted w/ heaviest gun they can carry...
Posted by: Bigity Oct 24 2011, 12:22 PM
That is Jesse Ventura. You would think that since you linked IMDB you would have noticed that
Posted by: Dez384 Oct 24 2011, 01:19 PM
assault rifles,heavy/light pistols,SMG's, and machine pistols would do their work, (for shotguns, some like them, some do not..i have no opinion of them..)
if neeeded for heavier firepower, drones fitted w/ heaviest gun they can carry...
But nothing screams pink mohawk more than a minigun!
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 01:26 PM
Except a minigun with an underbarrel monofilament bola launcher
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2011, 01:27 PM
This.... For the Win...
What a Brutal Weapon Indeed.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2011, 01:30 PM
Or a 12-Gauge Stotgun Minigun. Now I have to talk my GM into letting me have one of these. Are you taking notes Te0dio?
Posted by: Loch Oct 24 2011, 01:40 PM
Gatling shotgun, eh? I can dig it. A vindicator loaded with flèchettes is basically the same thing, just less direct about it.
Make sure you get full RC on that though. A heavy weapon shotgun kicks like a stable full of mules (double DOUBLE uncompensated recoil penalty...ouch).
Posted by: raben-aas Oct 24 2011, 01:47 PM
"Jesse Ventura is a pussy" sez F
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/297/0/a/shadowrun_trog_of_war_by_raben_aas-d4dsyfw.jpg
Posted by: Kliko Oct 24 2011, 02:03 PM
Minigun shotguns are http://www.youtube.com/user/TheW1zard12#p/u/50/Cll2pUB5k3I!
Posted by: Draco18s Oct 24 2011, 02:06 PM
Make sure you get full RC on that though. A heavy weapon shotgun kicks like a stable full of mules (double DOUBLE uncompensated recoil penalty...ouch).
Oops. RPGmath kicks in.
Is it 1 uncompensated recoil as -4 DP, or -3?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 24 2011, 02:16 PM
I don't think you get double-double at all, whether *2*2 or +1+1.
Posted by: Draco18s Oct 24 2011, 02:21 PM
Also true.
Posted by: Miri Oct 24 2011, 03:00 PM
Minigun Shotgun.. Streetsweeper.. eat your heart out.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 24 2011, 04:09 PM
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/297/0/a/shadowrun_trog_of_war_by_raben_aas-d4dsyfw.jpg
Until that guy becomes more than a weird poster, The Body wins.
Of course, Ventura is batshit insane these days so maybe the recoil scrambled his brains.
Posted by: Bodak Oct 24 2011, 11:21 PM
Posted by: Traul Oct 25 2011, 01:58 AM
-Gyro stabilization system
-Gas Vent 3
-Heavy Barrel
-Personalized Grip/Electronic Firing
-Hip Pad
That gets you 12 points of RC. For the last two points, you need Strength 10 or higher (easily done with a cyberarm), provided your DM allows the optional rules from Arsenal for high strength allowing extra Recoil Comp.
Add an anchor in each foot and you're good to go.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 25 2011, 02:08 AM
This guy seems to understand my sense of humour (that is, if immitation is anything to go by).
Sorry, I'm confused - we both said the same thing, but I doubt there was imitation there. Maybe you can explain your sense of "humor"
Posted by: Seriously Mike Oct 25 2011, 08:36 AM
Guys, remind me: where are the rules for weapon mounts, tripods and other stationary mounts?
Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 25 2011, 10:33 AM
spread all over, SR4(A) and Arsenal mainly.
Posted by: Ryu Oct 26 2011, 07:03 PM
Being prone doesn't really impede you, either… hopefully they don't have S&S.Getting prone using Full Defense (guessing the cowards will) loses an IP.
Beyond that you should fire miniguns using the two long, one short option. The second long burst should still have a useable dicepool, making the short going to waste occasionally a luxury problem. You only face that -14 base recoil on the last attack, reducing the need for max. recoil reduction.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 26 2011, 07:09 PM
I guess? It's just a free action.
That really, really seems like cheating, reducing the minigun restriction (FA-only) to a much lesser 'waste a few bullets' penalty.
Posted by: Loch Oct 26 2011, 07:10 PM
Beyond that you should fire miniguns using the two long, one short option. The second long burst should still have a useable dicepool, making the short going to waste occasionally a luxury problem. You only face that -14 base recoil on the last attack, reducing the need for max. recoil reduction.
Per p. 30 of Arsenal, miniguns cannot fire less than full bursts.
Although I guess you were talking about multiple targets, which I haven't really bothered with. Prefer to guarantee a kill every IP and all that.
Posted by: Ryu Oct 26 2011, 07:17 PM
Yes. But Full Bursts can be split. The Precious pg. 154, Multiple Targets. Modified by Arsenal pg. 30.
Supressive Fire is dodged with Reaction+Edge. In case of a minigun, getting Dodge on top will be very interesting.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 26 2011, 07:35 PM
Crazily, it's actually better to shoot 3 separate things than one, then (even with -2 per extra target, esp. because that's mostly hurting your 'throwaway' short burst). *shrug* I don't play with that kind of obvious abuse.
Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 27 2011, 06:10 AM
Perhaps it is a case of getting the recoil to work with the attack rather then against the attack, by directing it towards the next targets?
Posted by: Ryu Oct 27 2011, 07:22 AM
I think that is how the rule (and miniguns) are supposed to be used. And I do not want to encourage RC 14 builds.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 11:42 AM
Your position is that miniguns are intended to be better at shooting 3 separate targets than one? And shooting one target '3 times' isn't even possible?
I think the problem is simply that 'FA is made of smaller bursts' rule; it's a messy one that only causes problems, miniguns or not.
Posted by: Ryu Oct 27 2011, 07:09 PM
I think the problem is simply that 'FA is made of smaller bursts' rule; it's a messy one that only causes problems, miniguns or not.
As the rules stand, one could say they are better at shooting multiple things, yes. Can´t say I disapprove of that part from my vision of miniguns. I´d still permit to shoot one target trice since it should indeed be possible.
What is your problem with multiple bursts? Short/Short is already standard practice for many, and that does not need FA mode.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 07:13 PM
No problem with multiple bursts, and it's not about 'needing' FA. The problem is using something *specifically* restricted to 'full bursts' to actually fire 3 smaller bursts.
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