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Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 08:12 AM

The description of Realistic Form mentions an example of a Fire Elemental that "might appear as a column of angry flames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman." (Street Magic p. 102). Now all Spirits of Fire have the Power of Energy Aura (SR4A p. 303. This Power is always on (SR4A p. 294).
Wouldn't being wrapped in flames without burning and dying, defeat the purpose of the disguise?

Posted by: Hound Oct 26 2011, 08:34 AM

I was under the impression that any "always on" power could be turned off at will.

Edit: herp derp, disregard this.... just noticed he quoted a page that probably proves me wrong.

Edit 2: okay actually, after reading that, it doesn't specifically state that the powers cannot be turned off. Under the part where it's talking about power durations in general is says that powers with a duration of Always are "always in effect (have an Action of Automatic.)" The part about the action being automatic would suggest to me that the power does need to be activated (and thus can be deactivated) the only difference is that it doesn't even cost a Free Action, it just happens whenever you want it to.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 08:39 AM

When I wrote the first post I just assumed they were always on. Now I checked and the book proves me right:

Posted by: toturi Oct 26 2011, 10:30 AM

While Energy Aura is always on, must said aura be visible? How exactly is the aura perceptible? Can the aura of flames not appear as a heat shimmer?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 10:44 AM

Read the description of the power and the one of the Spirit of Fire. In its case it is a fire aura. How is fire invisible?
Unless you use the aura exactly RAW (i.e without common sense) there is a whole other set of problems, a scorched floor for example.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 26 2011, 12:04 PM

But fire spirits usually don't get Realistic Form, do they?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 12:18 PM

Not normally, but you could create an ally spirit with Energy Aura [Fire] and an alternate realistic form. I guess that is what the text refers to. The text would have made a lot more sense if they used any other spirit without Energy Aura.

Posted by: Halflife Oct 26 2011, 12:27 PM

Burning Hydrogen is essentially invisible in the visible spectrum in spite of being able to melt your skin off. It can get dangerous if there is an ignited leak and no one notices.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 01:24 PM

I doubt they meant that by writing:

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 26 2011, 01:26 PM

In laboratory conditions, maybe. But as soon as the spirit starts scorching the floor, it's going to attract notice.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 26 2011, 01:30 PM

Realistic Form is pretty problematic anyway. Let's go with, 'yes, the disguise is defeated'.

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 26 2011, 01:30 PM

Sounds to me like an editing mistake.

Anyone summoning elementals of any form would have to think twice of even summoning one of them for fear of the following.

-Accidentally setting the location on fire by just...radiating...
-Flooding, water damages, short-circuiting, electrocution
-etc...

Sounds a bit wrong.

Posted by: toturi Oct 26 2011, 01:42 PM

You may well be correct in the intepretation that the Energy Aura isn't invisible.

As for your other assertion,... given that your time on the forums, you should know my gaming style.

But Energy Aura may not necessarily defeat the purpose of the disguise. The Realistic Form could misdirect observers - perhaps the "woman" is a mage Endowed with Energy Aura or maybe the sighting may be misinterpreted as a female adept with Elemental Strike.

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 26 2011, 02:23 PM

We handle it by saying that if the summoner wishes the Always On power to be turned off, it takes a service. In the case of an Ally spirit or a Free Spirit (PC or NPC) this is not much of a cost, but they are special and rare anyway.

Posted by: Dez384 Oct 26 2011, 02:46 PM

The Lady in the Red Dress looks Really Hot!


As to the concerns of summoning a fire elemental and setting the hay barn on fire by its mere presence:

Mechanically, the only time the aura comes into effect is when the spirit makes an attack or when it is attacked. Unless you count walking as a melee attack, it wouldn't leave scorched footprints. This would also allow a materialized spirit to manipulate objects without them being consumed by flames.

Realistically/Thematically, I would say that realistic form supersedes energy aura in that it isn't noticeable or it also changes to something appropriate/realistic looking.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 02:55 PM

This however would severely limit the number of possible realistic forms.

@Dez384: Yes I agree, you should use only the RAW of the power, with the exception of the retaliation to ranged attacks. Having the power behave like the real element would create a whole lot of problems to the point where you cannot summon those spirits unless you want them to create havoc.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 26 2011, 05:11 PM

I don't see a problem with Elemental Aura and random spirit-summoning having their downsides, really. If you're concerned about not damaging the environment, get something civilized like a Spirit of Man; in a flammable environment, lay off the Fire Elementals.

It makes the choice of spirits for an occasion less of a no-brainer. It adds something to magical forensics besides assensing the astral signature. I like that.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 05:18 PM

If this was the intention of the rules, the authors should have mentioned it.

What do you get to analyze? Burnt stuff? The spirit still does not leave any trace but its signature. And once the spirit is dismissed this signature is worthless.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Oct 26 2011, 05:41 PM

Lol what? Spirit of Man is the no-brainer choice for almost every situation. Fire Elemental isn't even second choice for a hermetic if you're super optimizing, Air Elementals are strictly better. Don't even get started on the Street Magic spirits.

If you want to make varied spirit choices more viable you need to let the Fire Elemental be less limited, not more.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 26 2011, 06:49 PM

There's lots of rules without designer commentary. I think the designers expected people to use common sense ("a fire aura is visible and can set a place on fire; a fire elemental is basically a sentient, mobile bonfire") rather than waste precious pages spelling out the obvious. Page count is a valuable resource, and few people want to read through a rulebook that spells out everything in enough detail to win a lawsuit.



It might clue you on to the killer being a fire spirit, for example. And it's not unlikely that there'll be some chemical traces - or telltale lack of traces - that can be used to distinguish between damage cause by a flamethrower and a fire spirit.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 26 2011, 06:54 PM

You shouldn't want to use fire spirits to defend a wooden home.

I too think the elemental spirits are on the lame side, not sufficiently differentiated in what they're good for, and not as good as some of the new spirits. But rules-lawyering away the flavorful, common-sense disadvantages of elementals isn't the way to fix that.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 07:05 PM

Using common sense for magic or other things that have no real world equivalent can be very tricky. Sometimes the rules ecven say that magic behaves contrary to common sense (it is easier to ignite a rock with a spell than it is to ignite gasoline)

That is true. Whether that knowledge helps the LEOs is a different story.

Posted by: DMiller Oct 26 2011, 09:32 PM

I agree with this. It's RAW and works well. The sprit version of the energy aura is not the same as the spell. The spell is the "always bathed in <element>" where the spirit power is only bathed in <element> when attacked or attacking. -easy-

-D

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 26 2011, 09:40 PM

Both only have an explicit mechanical effect in melee (atack and defense) and both are continually on. Except for the DV they are the same.

Posted by: DMiller Oct 26 2011, 09:49 PM

Thanks. I didn't look up the spell before posting. So both of them would be safe standing in a big loose pile of paper (using fire aura) as long as you were't attacked (by the paper) or attacking it. -RAW-

I like it. It's magic after all and doesn't HAVE to make sense.

-D

Posted by: Udoshi Oct 26 2011, 10:08 PM

Note: Physical, so does not apply all the time. Just most of it. Spirits may also Materialize like mages do, which may be another way to avoid it.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 26 2011, 10:48 PM

Personally, I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says that it can't be turned off, only that it's always on by default. There is a difference. Your ability to breathe, for instance, is "always on," but you can choose to hold your breath if you really want to.

Since the rules do offer an example of where it being on against the spirit's will isn't practical, I'd say that's the safer assumption to make.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 26 2011, 11:02 PM

This^^^^

I'm not exactly sure why it is such a point of contention.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 05:32 AM

Just like the spirit leaving behind a trail of scorched earth, this is an assumption that simply is not based on the rules. The Power is always on. If the spirit can turn it off it cannot be always on.

@Udoshi: You are talking about Manifestation not Materialization. A manifested Spirit/mage is only present on the astral plane despite being visible on the physical and thus cannot affect anything in any way on the physical plane. In case of the spirit Energy Aura is still on it just can't affect anything on the astral plane as it is a physical power.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 05:48 AM

Well, except for the bit about the Realistic Power (which, incidentally, is another "always on" power) allowing a Fire Spirit to appear as an ordinary woman.


Most adept powers are "always on," too. But the adept can disable them whenever he wishes.

"Always on" is just an easy way to say that a power doesn't require an action to use, requires no conscience effort to maintain, and thus is always assumed to be active. Nowhere does it say it must be active or that under no circumstances can it be disabled.

Case in point, Energy Aura has the "Action: Auto" label. Looking on page 293 of SR4A, you find out what that means: "Actions: Powers require either a Complex Action or Simple Action to activate, or they Automatically ('Auto') function at all times with no attention from the critter. Auto actions require no action to activate, as they are always on."

Again, nowhere does it say that it has to be on. It's just assumed to always be on and active, just like most adept powers and other similar rules/effects.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 06:23 AM

That exactly was the initial problem. Why would the rules of one power disable those of another?


Which actually are? I just went through the Powers of the BBB. They either require a decision and possibly an action to activate (Astral Perception, Killing Hands etc.) or are indeed always on and have no mention of being able to be turned off (Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes etc.)

I don't see what's unclear here. If something is always on you cannot turn it off at any time since this would break the condition of always.

Of course such Powers do not require an action to activate because they are already on all the time. And even in the sentence you quoted they say that such powers are "on all the time". You cannot turn something off that is on all the time.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 27 2011, 10:46 AM

I just think that there exist powers, such as for example Realistic Form and Energy Aura, that just don't combine well or at all. And I think that this incompatibility isn't necessarily a bad thing, from a game design viewpoint.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 27 2011, 02:16 PM

I don't see what the confusion is. You have a apparently human woman that leaves a trail of scorched ground wherever she walks.



-k

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 02:36 PM

That's not confusion, it's objection. They don't think that's a good situation, and the RAW is also crazy enough to preclude it.

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 27 2011, 03:39 PM

Just going to jump in here:


Can not a woman be "smoking hot" without actually being on fire?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 03:48 PM

Figuratively yes, literally not so much.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 27 2011, 03:48 PM

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/06/15




-k

Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 27 2011, 03:59 PM

Personally, I think it is a matter of one power over ruling the other. The Realistic form should suppress everything that gives away the spirit's identity to a physical-only observer. At least for materialization spirits, which have the option of appearing as normal, or the realistic form.

On another note, other then free, former fire spirits, is it even possible for Fire spirits to have realistic form?

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 27 2011, 04:08 PM

So what's stopping the Realistic Form giving the impression of a "smoking hot babe" without her being literally on fire?

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 05:12 PM

I'm not aware of any standard, conjurable spirits that have Realistic Form.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 05:26 PM

The fact that the Energy Aura cannot be turned off, no mater how realistic the form is. Even if you say that the Aura becomes invisble, it would still work i.e. anyone attacking the spirit would be burned.

Another option would be to create an ally spirit with both powers, to create a paradox. Unfortunately I cannot figure out how to use it to create perpetual motion with it, similar to the dropped cat with a buttered toast on the back.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 27 2011, 05:38 PM

Actually, a friend of mine back home was smoking hot when she was on fire. She still looks very good afterwards as well.

She freaked the hell out of her grade school when she mentioned to the class that she smoked once, as well.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 05:46 PM

And yet the books give an example of where it is turned off. Fancy that.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 05:50 PM

Isn't it tradition in SR to use examples that do not reflect the rules? I'm thinking about SR3's recoil accumulation.

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 27 2011, 06:13 PM

Oh, so it only works if she's attacked.

Well.

That suits everyone just fine. It's not like she sets the drapes on fire by walking past.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 06:38 PM

That's just two wrongs making a right, possibly.

Some people think that it's wrong for such a power to unduly hamper a spirit, and/or be uncontrollable. Others think it's wrong for such a power to be 'illogically' (or 'metagame-ly'?) restricted to only attack/defense (see flaming spirit sword threads).

Personally, I can see how a thing could have an uncontrollable energy aura power, with negative and positive consequences; I can also see a controllable (on/off) version of that existing. I can even see such a power that visually wreathes the user in energy, but only *directs* that energy through attacks or defense (reflexively). The point is that these are all distinct options, and we should know what thing has which kind. We should also ideally have a good reason for it that choice, informed by game balance, the principle of TANSTAAFL, and—of course—coolness.

I still say the main problem is Realistic Form is insane.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 06:39 PM

Sure, if the example is clearly wrong. But again, the rules don't say that you can't turn such a power off, only that it's always considered on by default. An example shows where it's clearly not active, indicating that it can be deactivated. The rules don't contradict that.

As for adept powers being able to be turned off, if they're not then FAB-III (and various other things) must be crazy scary for them in your version of the setting. Then there's the whole being completely unable to hide that they're a magician without initiating bit? And people around here think cyberware scanners are a hindrance...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 07:12 PM

I thought we were talking about the spirit power, though. Totally different, right?

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 27 2011, 07:18 PM

Fine.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/.

Moving on.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 07:48 PM

No the rules say the power is always on.
The example does indeed contradict the rules for Powers with the Duration: Always.

How does that differ from interpreting the powers differently? FAB III can attach itself to any awakened character and will only drain its MAG if and when the character is astrally active. As long as adepts are not astrally perceiving, they will only carry the bacteria around until they either find a more nourishing host or they starve.

What do active adept powers have to do with identifying uninitiated magicians?

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 07:56 PM

And again, your ability to breathe is "always on," but you can hold your breath just fine. By ability to see is "always on," but I can close my eyes and bam, it's off. The word "always" is being used as shorthand for "automatically active." As in, it takes no action or even thought to activate the power, and there are no consequences in game terms (such as a concentration modifier) to keep it active. That's all


Powers are astrally active, just like spells. To get rid of FAB, you "turn everything off" and wait it out or otherwise need to have some means of destroying it.


The auras they create. Anyone just glancing in their general direction while using astral perception can tell they have something active, triggering an Assensing Test to find out more. With their powers off, that doesn't happen unless they're assensing everyone who wanders by.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 08:05 PM

The rulebook does not describe any of those things as "always on"


I never heard about such a thing. Care to give proof by quoting one of the rulebooks? I doubt you will find anything to that nature. Both planes are completely separate. So a physical power never has an astral presence. The rulebook does not even say whether active adept powers are "magical subjects".


What makes you think that the appearance of powers is more easily discernable than the required MAG Attribute? That needs a hit to be found.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 08:14 PM

There's this thing called the English language. It has many varied concepts associated with it. This is one of them. The description for what "always on" means is exactly what I described in the previous post. In this case, "always" is just a game term for that description; ie, no action required, no consequence for having it active, and no requirements to keep it active. Nowhere does it say that it can't be turned off if you really want to. Just that turning it on is assumed and free of charge.


Read up on astral barriers and wards. A quick glance has this sentence: "The character may also bring a number of friends, spirits, active foci, sustained spells, or other astral forms with her through the barrier equal to the net hits scored." Note the underscored text in particular. There are plenty of other bits of text scattered throughout various books.


I'm assuming by MAG you mean Magic. You don't need to make a test to spot something that's right in front of your face. Assensing is used to determine details about auras and astral forms, not that they exist. Just like you don't need to make a Perception Test to tell some guy is standing right in front of you. Spells, powers, foci, etc. all have auras all their own.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 08:16 PM

Wait, how does 'other astral forms' imply adept powers?

This is an important question, I can't imagine it's never been nailed down before.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 08:32 PM

Yes, there is the English language, but you are confusing two words. What you mean is http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/automatic not http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/always. If something is on at all times or invariably, there can be no time when it is off. That is simple logic.


This largely depends on what barrier we are talking about. There are dual-natured ones (wards, mana lodges) which impede those things on both planes and there are those that do in on only one plane. Astral ones will not impede the adept unless he is dual-natured i.e. astrally active.


As Yerameyahu already pointed out the book never says that adept powers have an astral form. There is however this:
So we do not know if those powers are separate from the adept.

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 27 2011, 08:33 PM

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 08:37 PM

Not helping.

Posted by: Adarael Oct 27 2011, 08:53 PM

I seem to recall that in Shadows of the Underworld there was an adventure called "Two Solitudes", where the runners are hired to find an exec's son, who'd gone missing. When they catch up with the son they discover he ran away, because he was A) gay, and B) his lover was a free fire kami. So given that the kami had Realistic Form (or specifically, Human Form) and Energy Aura, and fooled other people into thinking he was human, we can assume the energy aura can be turned off. Also, given that the student and the kami could have sex we can also assume the energy aura can be turned off.

Let's also not forget that the critter power rules are EXPLICITLY noted to not be hard and fast, and should be subject to alteration by the GM whenever they feel appropriate.

I don't see anything wrong with turning energy aura off, ergo.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 27 2011, 09:53 PM

It seems to me that some people on the board are simultaneously...

• clinging to a literal verbatim reading of some sentences in RAW (e.g. always on), and
• making assumptions about what one power does (e.g. smoking, charring the floor, etc), and
• dismissing what the other power can do (i.e. that it's negated by auras).

I see no reason why the powers have to be in conflict. By RAW, the aura only has effects when the spirit attacks or is attacked. If it's not attacking or being attacked, it can touch, be touched, hold hands, shag, pour gasoline on itself, whatever, and the aura has no effect. This may not make sense to you, but "Poof! - It's MAGIC". If you're insisting on a pendantic, literal interpretation of the rules, then you need to interpret ALL the rules literally. The realistic form power affects either what the spirit looks like (i.e. flames would be imperceptible/invisible/intangible) or affects how you percieve them (i.e. there are flames, but your eyes/mind refuse to notice them). Either way a third party doesn't notice.

The only remaining question in my mind is if you can later notice the aura when you do attack the spirit. So, you meet a guy (actually realistic form elemental), who looks perfectly normal, shake his hand, etc without noticing anything unusual. Later you get in an argument and punch him. Since the guy was actually a spirit with elemental aura your punch burns you - do you then notice the aura? Or do you suddenly look confusedly at your fist wondering why punching that mundane guy hurt you so much?

[EDIT] Thought of another question - Does the aura only effect the one the spirit attacks, or can bystanders be affected? If my fire spirit is carrying a wounded team member, and somebody punches the spirit (in turn getting burned by the aura) does the team member get burned also?

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 09:58 PM

It's the list that implies it. Active foci, spirits, sustained spells, and other magical abilities have their own auras/astral forms. Adept powers are no different other than that some of them are considered "innate" and can past barriers unimpeded. But that doesn't mean they don't have an aura or astral form, only that they can bypass a barrier despite that.


And what you're doing is completely and utterly ignoring that "always" means "automatic" by the definition of that particular set of rules. It's right there, in black and white.


Using that logic, they wouldn't need to use the word "automatic" in the description. "Automatic" implies that it's not a completely persistent ability, just one that requires no effort whatsoever to use and maintain. That's all "always" means by the rules. The definition of the word in the English language doesn't mean a damn thing in this case, because the game redefined what it means in that particular case.


Right, they won't impede him. But it can impede some of his powers. Just like it won't impede a magician with sustained spells or active foci, but it sure as hell will impede those spells and foci.


Why? Just because they (painfully obviously) use magic differently from magicians, it doesn't mean they're not magical. Innate powers are "part" of the adept, but at no time do they stop being magical themselves. Just like how a cyberlimb doesn't stop being technological just because you have one implanted.

Posted by: Mardrax Oct 27 2011, 10:04 PM

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 10:05 PM

It doesn't mention adept powers. You're begging the question.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 10:07 PM

It doesn't mention a lot of things. That's what "and other astral forms" encompasses, as opposed to listing each and every instance throughout the entirity of the game.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 10:12 PM

The rules are so damn scattered that, being busy in the real world, I have neither the time nor the heart to go searching for everything. The one I can recall off hand was easy enough to find. Street Magic, p. 112, Astral Topography: "Magic auras are equally complex; spells, physical mana barriers, and active adept and critter powers are alive with color."

And for what it's worth, I couldn't find a reference to spells having distinct astral forms, either, even though I know they do.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 27 2011, 10:12 PM

That's my point. It could mean anything… that is an astral form. The *question* is 'are adept powers astral forms?', so this can't be relevant. If you view that question as settled, then it must be based on some other evidence, because this piece of evidence cannot possibly support it. You're assuming that the proposition to be proved is already true, in the argument.

There, see? That makes sense. Now, is an aura an astral form? I thought astrals forms were 'physically' astral 'objects', while auras are just colors (possibly 'intangible' on the astral).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 27 2011, 10:48 PM

I never said the spirit should scorch the floor or affect the world in any way other than when attacking or being attacked. An Aura of Flame, not heat, however implies visibility. Strangely the other mentioned elements needn't be visible. So we are back at the paradox.

As above the question remains whether the aura is visible. You could maybe recognize what happens by examining your wounds. Burns look different than bruises. There is no crunch on that however ans you never know how you are affected. If you are punched by a flaming fist, are you really burned or was the contact too short and only the kinetic impulse is relevant for the injuries?

Nope, by RAW.

Prove it. The description in the rules of "always" as duration in no way implies that those powers can be turned off:
"constantly on" cannot mean "can be turned off at will"

Sorry for being ambiguous. I meant the foci and spells will only be impeded if they are present on the right plane. Wards will impede them on both planes, the mana barrier spell however only those affecting the same plane that barrier spell is cast on.

Ol'Scratch did you by chance start playing SR at 2nd Edition or earlier? At that time there was no hard barrier between the two planes. Since SR3 though it has been established that anything that is on one plane cannot affect anything on the other. The exception are dual-natured entities. Just so that you don't start, spells are not dual-natured.

I never said they were not magical. I just said they don't have astral forms. Whether they are supposed to have them never has been mentioned. And to the cyberlimb, yes it remains technological, but it is treated differently once it is implanted by spells. You can no longer target it alone nor is the spell resisted by OR but by the recipient's Attributes.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 27 2011, 10:59 PM

I think my interpretation of Realistic Form isn't the same as some other peoples' here. The way I read it, normally spirits looking like physical things (people, objects) don't look realistic. Kinda like an obvious CGI character among the live action crowd. RF remedies that. Without RF, a spirit will always look supernatural.

However, it doesn't say that it hides the effects of any powers the spirit uses. So a spirit using RF and Energy Aura would look like a person (mage, adept) using EA.

Does EA look like anything, and does it do anything besides when you're attacked? I think it does; the first line of the description (SR4A, p. 294) is:

The combat-related consequences are then detailed, but that first sentence is general, saying that it does damage to its environment all the time. And that's probably obvious.


As for the on/off debate: it doesn't say it can be turned off, and it says it's always active. To me, that means that it can't be turned off.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Oct 27 2011, 11:01 PM

Yes, it does, because all its saying is that it requires no effort, thought, or concentration to activate and maintain the power. It's automatically activated. In no way whatsoever does that mean it has to be on, that it can't be deactivated, only that activating it -- which in and of itself means that there is a state where it's not active -- is an automatic action. One that doesn't require a Free, Simple, or Complex Action to activate. One that doesn't carry a sustaining dice pool penalty. One that even if you're knocked unconscious will continue to operate. That's all "always" means in this case.

Just like the description says.


I know what you meant, and in this case you're incorrect. Yes, spells and other magicial abilities only affect targets on the same plane. This isn't about affecting targets. Active foci, sustained spells (Physical or Mana), and other magical goodness with their own aura/astral form are affected by things like astral wards. Just like the aforementioned quote said.


I've been playing since the original game and have been posting here since long before the Bulldrek fiasco.


I'm aware of the difference. I'm also aware of what is and isn't dual-natured. It doesn't matter. An astral barrier will ruin the day of a Physical spell just as easily as a Mana spell.


Just like some innate adept powers. That doesn't mean they stop being adept powers. That doesn't mean they stop having an aura/astral form. They're just "part of" the adept as far as targeting and similar things are concerned. Again, as previously mentioned.

If an adept walks by an astrally perceiving character, that perceiver doesn't need to make any test to notice he has multiple auras. If wants to learn what kind of auras they are, then he needs to make an Assensing Tests.