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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Range on bikes
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 29 2011, 02:19 AM
Since SR for many people has moved out of Seattle the element of gas/fuel for vehicles becomes more of an issue. I mean when limited to the metroplexs like seattle or Denver you don't have to worry about fuel too much, but if, for example you're running between Philly and NYC or across central France down to cote d'azure or racing a ferry from the UK around the north sea coast to Oslo (cookie if you know what I mean by that) Suddenly fuel becomes an issue.
I mean I just, like tonight, traded in my Honda Shadow for a HD 1200C. Looking at tank size and milage the Honda when new could do 120 miles. The HD has a range of about 200 miles. When I number crunched bikes I found that 200 seems to be the longest range for a bike. After that point the bigger bikes get heavier decreasing milage. what this translates to and what I was thinknig of in game terms. If I were on a run from North of Philly to Nroth of NYC I might be able to squeak it out on a tank but I'd need fuel as soon as I arrived on the Honda. By comparrison the HD would not need to stop. I would need to refuel before returning but i could get onto the target and still move. So how often does that sort of logistic enter into your games?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 29 2011, 02:22 AM
SunCell.
But aren't all operating ranges in SR4 extremely vague at best? 
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 29 2011, 02:27 AM
They were because the game was tied to Seattle where running out of gas really wasn't an issue, you find a gas station and pull over. My point is that 4th ed has broken out of that mold-though we still use Seattle, and it is possible people are playing in other areas and in that, fuel logistics should start to work into it.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 29 2011, 02:32 AM
Vehicle ranges are 6 hours of continuous operation time per "tank", unless specified otherwise.
Arsenal page 103
-k
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 29 2011, 02:36 AM
My bike has a range of 200 miles on a full tank. My VW has a range of 400+ miles on a full tank.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 29 2011, 02:48 AM
Yeah, SR vehicle ranges are kinda anemic.
-k
Posted by: CanRay Oct 29 2011, 02:57 AM
Lack of hard and fast rules with a heavy suggestion and provision for allowing homebrew. By RAW, it SUGGESTS six hours per tank.
Posted by: Daishi Oct 29 2011, 05:07 AM
I never got that impression. Six hours of operation time at full speed will get you pretty far with most vehicles. A Harley-Davidson Scorpion will get over 800 km at that rate.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Oct 29 2011, 05:19 AM
Assuming you have the opportunity to run at max speed the entire time.
The one-size-fits-all suggestion is not quite worse than no rules at all, but almost. This is worse considering the existence of mods specifically affecting this nonexistent game mechanic.
Posted by: Medicineman Oct 29 2011, 05:36 AM
Never ever
I guess it would be considered "Hartwurst" at my tables. Gasoline is paid for by Lifestyle (none of our Chars has Street or Squatter Lifestile so we can afford it) and Range was never an Issue
Hough !
Medicinemane
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Oct 29 2011, 06:48 AM
Its a glaring lack, but its utterly trivial compared to the lack of useful information about passenger capacity, load capacity and max weight carried :/
Vehicles really could use a redo from start.
Posted by: Pendaric Oct 29 2011, 10:09 AM
Still on SR3 and though rare, there has been times where a refuel has not only been necessary but vital to the plot.
Posted by: Modular Man Oct 29 2011, 12:03 PM
I thought those vehicle rules were meant to be fast and loose. There are modifications as well that don't always make sense because they do not cover every obstacle. That's fine by me, I like a system that is a little undefined around the edges much better than something that is fleshed out on every detail.
So, should it become an issue, make something up for yourselves. If a GM thinks that the PCs' travel habits overtax their gasoline meters, tell them beforehand and everybody should be fine.
See, I'd also rather envision large Trucks to operate for more than a mere six hours. But on the other hand, I didn't really miss specifics on passenger numbers when I didn't have them.
Posted by: Mardrax Oct 29 2011, 12:13 PM
Suncell, which has been mentioned. Gridlink will get you quite a long way along the civilised routes.
Now this'll get more ugly when taking that Thundercloud through a tour of the Amazonian jungle.
Or when your nuclear submarine runs out of nukejuice 6 hours out of the coast. 
Posted by: Ascalaphus Oct 29 2011, 01:04 PM
Yeah, especially air and seacraft with only 6 hours operation time is awkward, if you're in the middle of the Pacific.
Take it with a grain of salt, salt does wonders for operational range 
Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 29 2011, 01:51 PM
heh. If one want to be crazy, there is always the SR2/3 rigger books and their otempo rules (bordering on the "sanity" that is delta-v in transhuman space)...
Btw, i do not think SR have been Seattle-focused for at least a couple of editions now. But it is still urban-focused, in that one is largely swapping one city for another. As such, access to fuel/recharge should be a lesser issue.
And i think the 6 hour rule in Arsenal was mostly for airborne drones and vehicles that need to stay in an area for a while (like say a on station air support for the rent-a-cops).
Posted by: HunterHerne Oct 29 2011, 03:26 PM
Honestly, never had this problem. Generally when my players go on a roadtrip, they decide they will "stop to refuel" when they can. Makes it easy on me, since I don't need to plan to let them run out, and it lets me plan little traps if they are on the run.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 29 2011, 04:00 PM
The cost of gas is covered in the lifestyle but not the dstops. The only reason hunterherne I'd be careful is let them tell you they're stopping other wise an encounter 'when you stop for gas' could look a little set up.
To use the drive from Philly to NY as the example, with vehicales limited to the post speed limit (65mph), if you just use the 6 hour rule-which we'll say for the sake of example doens't just apply to drones-both vehicles can go up and back, it's about 2 1/2 hour drive. With my VW i can drive up, visit my inlaws and drive back on one tank.
On the HD I can get up there and putter aronud but would need to refuel before heading home.
With the Honda I'd better refuel on the way up just in case and will need to refuel on the way home.
This is all stuff that should be taken into account for a run.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 29 2011, 04:19 PM
-k
EDIT: Never mind, several people had the same data as I did.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 29 2011, 04:22 PM
So, should it become an issue, make something up for yourselves. If a GM thinks that the PCs' travel habits overtax their gasoline meters, tell them beforehand and everybody should be fine.
See, I'd also rather envision large Trucks to operate for more than a mere six hours. But on the other hand, I didn't really miss specifics on passenger numbers when I didn't have them.
Extra Fuel Tanks and Hey Presto, an additional 6 hours per tank.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 29 2011, 04:38 PM
Extra Fuel Tanks and Improved Economy.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 29 2011, 04:46 PM
Even Better... And if you Add Suncell in to the mix, you are golden...
Posted by: CanRay Oct 29 2011, 04:50 PM
"So, how long can this blimp operate?" "I don't know, how long is Sol good for emitting heat?"
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 29 2011, 05:10 PM
Indeed... Blimps are the ultimate in Fuel Conservation.
Posted by: Paul Oct 29 2011, 06:46 PM
We haven't had a game or a campaign where resource management has been an issue for a little while. We've played a few-and they can be frustrating and fun all at once. On average though resource management isn't an issue.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 29 2011, 07:04 PM
Never had it in Shadowrun, but we have had a few games where resource management was an important issue. Even to the point where we had to figure out the pay (And income taxes) for the crew.
It got quite... Insane. We ended up getting a small percentage of the Gross Planetary Product for one job in order to maintain things, and keep us in beer money.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 29 2011, 07:19 PM
Twilight 2000. Resource Management Hell... Heh...
But a fun game nevertheless...
Posted by: CanRay Oct 29 2011, 07:21 PM
Another game I've always wanted to play.
BASTARDS, THE LOT OF YOU!!!
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 29 2011, 07:25 PM
Another game I've always wanted to play.
BASTARDS, THE LOT OF YOU!!!
If only you would move to Colorado...
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 30 2011, 10:55 PM
Too much combat and healing too for freaking EVER
Posted by: CanRay Oct 30 2011, 11:03 PM
Be where the bullets aren't.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 31 2011, 02:17 AM
Yep, a lot of potential combat, and healing took a while.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 31 2011, 03:00 AM
andweirdly that is now a dacade past and the weapons developed since in Iraq and Afghnaistan make it- quaint. they could even iimagine drones. Might as well play "Twighlight 1918" with them there hi tech BAR's.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 31 2011, 12:48 PM
I hear the GDW? upgraded to Twilight 2013. I have seen references to it, but not any books. *shrug*
It still remains pretty fun, even still. Probably for nostalgia sake.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 31 2011, 05:18 PM
Or for someone like me who never got the chance.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 31 2011, 06:34 PM
Ironically the chemical weapon defenses didn't change much between 1918 and 2000
Posted by: Warlordtheft Oct 31 2011, 08:29 PM
It still remains pretty fun, even still. Probably for nostalgia sake.
By desert storm 1, the game was pretty outdated techwise (I had the box version, still do actually
). I think they realease I did play that game quite abit---god help you if you had an MBT. It had the York, LAV 75 and a few other things that got dropped due to budget constraints. I think the last edition that came out, came out in 2000.Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 31 2011, 09:21 PM
). I think they realease I did play that game quite abit---god help you if you had an MBT. It had the York, LAV 75 and a few other things that got dropped due to budget constraints. I think the last edition that came out, came out in 2000.Yep... Have BOTH the 1st Edition AND 2nd Edition Boxed Sets. Great Game.
Outdated is okay, though. It is still fun, if a bit deadly.
Posted by: Sengir Nov 1 2011, 07:48 PM
Until all the smog has covered the solar cells
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 1 2011, 07:52 PM
They CAN be cleaned...
Posted by: Sengir Nov 1 2011, 08:35 PM
Sure, always liked the idea of little maintenance drones for a bigger airship drone. Those could also scrub the solar cells and sensor lenses.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 1 2011, 08:53 PM
Indeed... I have a Dozen or so for my Airship.
Posted by: Modular Man Nov 1 2011, 09:07 PM
Minidrones with gecko tips on that GTS Tower 
Posted by: Sengir Nov 1 2011, 09:09 PM
What combination of blimp/drones are you using?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 1 2011, 09:23 PM
For my Primary Character, I use the big Luft... Zeppelin, somewhat modified (okay, heavily modified), for my residence. Then I just use modified maintenance drones (From the Runners Companion?) for most of the maintenance. Sorry I cannot be more specific, but I do not have the writeup here with me.
Posted by: Sengir Nov 1 2011, 09:50 PM
Luftschiffbau 
(Which means nothing but "airship production")
The Zeppelin is a bit huge for my tastes...but the idea with the household repair drone from RC is great, I might just steal that...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 1 2011, 10:14 PM
(Which means nothing but "airship production")
The Zeppelin is a bit huge for my tastes...but the idea with the household repair drone from RC is great, I might just steal that...
Yeah, that one...
It is big, and it was excessively expensive to get. But it is fun. Too bad the character is more a NPC than a PC currently (Too many characters, not enough time). Yep, the household drones are awesome.
Posted by: Falconer Nov 1 2011, 11:23 PM
I actually kinda miss the old books where they give cargo factor and passenger figures, hard points etc. fuel economy etc.
This is one are where the game hasn't gotten better than the older Rigger 2/Rigger black book.
Posted by: CanRay Nov 1 2011, 11:37 PM
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 2 2011, 12:13 AM
Heh...
Posted by: Snow_Fox Nov 2 2011, 02:38 AM
This is one are where the game hasn't gotten better than the older Rigger 2/Rigger black book.
I agree, it made it easier to crunch the numbers for mods. thoughlets be fair Riggers BB2 was am amazingly bad book.
After a while the erretta included the instructions douse with gasoline and strike a match.
Posted by: CanRay Nov 2 2011, 02:53 AM
Maybe there'll be a supplement like the "Way Of The Adept" to allow for Optional Rules for groups that want that complexity.
I know I do.
Posted by: Adrian Korvedzk Nov 3 2011, 02:34 AM
Well, for what it's worth, if any of you have characters running in a Zug or other big rig:
Current 'Big Name Carrier' company trucks have two 100gal tanks for diesel fuel.
Fully loaded, I've seen fuel economy as low as 5.6 Miles per Gallon, and as high as 8.6[I've heard rumors of greater, haven't seen, but have heard]
That pans out to a range of 1120 miles to 1720 miles.
Tractor with an empty trailer can get 8.2 to 10 miles per gallon, meaning 1640 to 2000 miles.
A tractor with no trailer can easily hop over 13 miles per gallon. Downside is the ride is now much rougher[no weight on the tail makes for a bouncy, bouncy ride], and risky in the event of sudden stops[yes, in the case of cab-overs{flat nose} bobtails, it is very easy to face plant by slamming on the breaks]. Long noses don't have these problems, and I suppose the newer slope noses have an almost negligible risk of this.
Also, A Kenworth T660 with the studio sleeper is a veritable micro apartment on wheels. Easily middle lifestyle type living space.
Tank space can be increased to up to 250 gallons per tank, making max capacity for fuel 500 gallons.
Just... For what it's worth, ya know? Any questions about trucks, and what can be done, google, or ask me. I'd be happy to oblige.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Nov 3 2011, 02:38 AM
I truly do appreciate those details, 5-8 miles per gal is a whole other set of numbers, but I have to confess with 500 gallons of gas my first thought was 500 gallons and tracer fire. Ever seen Thelma and Louise.
Posted by: Adrian Korvedzk Nov 3 2011, 04:51 AM
Yup. And especially now with Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel being the norm, and only slightly less flammable than petrol, it is a logical way of creating diversionary road blocks.
EDIT: If you're still in the Gwynedd Valley area, I was just going through Allentown late last week. I want to say Thursday.
Posted by: CanRay Nov 3 2011, 06:01 AM
*Sighs* I miss my father. Sorry, he was a truck driver and I could have gotten some info on him on this.
Anyhow, on topic. Diesel is safer in military situations than petrol, and has been for a long time. (They called early, Petrol-Burning tanks "Ronsons", IIRC: "They light up the first time, every time.").
Most vehicles you're going to want to tank on any long trips, including motorcycles, will probably have the Multifuel Engine modification. I'd highly suggest it, at the very least. Due to both VITAS Plagues, most places in the world are like Northern Canada today, fifteen billion miles of *NOTHING*. When it's two towns until the next petrochem station, buying a few gallons from the local moonshiner can come in damned handy. As a lot of vehicles are also hybrid vehicles, the Sun Cell modification and driving on the electric motor is also a good suggestion, with some camping gear and rations to wait while the system charges up. If I were making gear, I'd probably have some kind of military-surplus "Solar Panel Blanket" you could spread out and do the same thing without the modification. But that's me.
Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 3 2011, 06:25 AM
Multifuel, Sun Cell, Additional Fuel Tank, & Improved Economy... with all that, you should be able to get the most distance out of your ride. I wanted to have that kind of setup on my van/RV for my zombie-apocalypse character.
Posted by: Adrian Korvedzk Nov 3 2011, 06:33 AM
Sorry, he was a truck driver and I could have gotten some info on him on this.Anyhow, on topic. Diesel is safer in military situations than petrol, and has been for a long time. (They called early, Petrol-Burning tanks "Ronsons", IIRC: "They light up the first time, every time.").
Most vehicles you're going to want to tank on any long trips, including motorcycles, will probably have the Multifuel Engine modification. I'd highly suggest it, at the very least. Due to both VITAS Plagues, most places in the world are like Northern Canada today, fifteen billion miles of *NOTHING*. When it's two towns until the next petrochem station, buying a few gallons from the local moonshiner can come in damned handy. As a lot of vehicles are also hybrid vehicles, the Sun Cell modification and driving on the electric motor is also a good suggestion, with some camping gear and rations to wait while the system charges up. If I were making gear, I'd probably have some kind of military-surplus "Solar Panel Blanket" you could spread out and do the same thing without the modification. But that's me.
I apologize if I dredged up sad memories.
You make a lot of useful points here. I can most definitely see the use of a hybrid multi-fuel engine with the backup solar blanket. Catch all those harmful rays.
Posted by: CanRay Nov 3 2011, 06:38 AM
You make a lot of useful points here. I can most definitely see the use of a hybrid multi-fuel engine with the backup solar blanket. Catch all those harmful rays.
Glad you like my ideas. They come from strange places at times so I never know what to think.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Nov 12 2011, 04:21 AM
They called Sherman tanks 'ronson's. for the reason you gave. They were quick, easy to learn etc but had substandard protection compared to German panzers.
As another example when looking at RL Harley's there is the '48' a really nice looking bike but between its milage and tank size it only has a rnage of about 96 miles, amazingly cool looking bike but massively substandard range compared with other stuff.
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