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Posted by: Juca Bala Nov 1 2011, 01:56 AM

Hi, when you attempts to repair or upgrade a drone, you should use the "Mechanic" active technical skill, right? But what mechanic? Ground, aerial? I need one skill for each type of drone? This seems excessive, maybe a "Mechanic: Drones" skill should exists?
Any thoughts on this?

Posted by: Tanegar Nov 1 2011, 02:00 AM

Depends on the drone's mode of locomotion. Alternatively, go for Industrial Mechanic as the catchall small-machine repair and maintenance skill.

Posted by: Daylen Nov 1 2011, 02:19 AM

I've oft lamented the implicit specialization demanded by active skills in SR. On the other hand rifles and shotguns and assault rifles are considered separate skills. I assume this is to enforce differentiation of characters though it leads to oddities as you have run into where one will have a hard time fixing one drone over another because of the propulsion methods not the complexity of the drone.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Nov 1 2011, 03:15 AM

I agree with Tanegar, "portuguese Fast Jack". Go with the locomotion system of the drone.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 1 2011, 03:23 AM

Maybe, Daylen, but it seems pretty clear in this case. If the drone as a whole is damaged, you'd better be an Aero Mechanic to fix it if it flies. For more specific applications, like modding, I believe Arsenal specifies the appropriate skill instead.

Posted by: Juca Bala Nov 1 2011, 11:50 PM

Thanks for all the anwser, guys, and, Yerameyahu, in Arsenal its writen only "Mechanics", this is the source of the initial confusion... I think I will go with a new Mechanic Active Skill for all kinds of drone... this way, if someone skilled in Mechanic - Ground vehicles wants to repair a crawler drone, no sweat, but he will have trouble repairing an aerial one, while someone with Mechanic - Drones, can repair any kind of drone, but no other kind of vehicle.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 2 2011, 06:27 PM

Or you could take the Mechanics group. Then you can repair all vehicles manned and unmanned and all machinery.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 2 2011, 06:29 PM

Well, That is just Crazy...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 2 2011, 07:12 PM

Weird, Juca Bala, sorry. Could've sworn Arsenal listed the kind of Mechanics.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 2 2011, 07:45 PM

It lists what kind of other skill might be needed, like Artisan for example. The type of mechanics depends on the vehicle being repaired/modified.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 2 2011, 08:01 PM

Which is simple and true; I just thought they were explicit. It's easy to imagine mods that don't necessarily require a skill based on the drive category.

Posted by: Mardrax Nov 2 2011, 10:13 PM

Drones are Vehicles. Grouping all those up would just mean giving tinkerers a discount of 6 BP per skill rating over just picking the group.
You want to be Mr FixIt? Take the skill group like Dakka Dakka suggested.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 2 2011, 11:42 PM

I wouldn't allow 'Drone Mechanic' anyway; it doesn't make sense with regard to the existing Mechanic skills. It's fine as a spec.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 2 2011, 11:54 PM

There's nothing stopping you from introducing a new skill. Just ask your GM if "Drone Mechanics" would be okay, with specializations based on their general category. I can't imagine anyone really having a problem with that.

(Oh how I miss the old defaulting rules...)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 2 2011, 11:59 PM

I would not allow it.
There are already perfectly good skills for that. New skills are for instances that are not already covered by existing skills.

Here is the relevant Quote:

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 12:00 AM

It makes as much sense as introducing a new Firearms skill to the existing set.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 02:00 AM

It's no worse than that fucking stupid Automatics skill.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 02:17 AM

Which is why you'd fix the existing skills, not *add* one to them. Currently, they don't overlap. It would be very odd to add a new, overlapping one. Which is what Drone Mechanic would be.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 02:47 AM

I wasn't commenting on that. I was commenting on the "there are already perfectly good skills" bit. Automatics demonstrates that there's a place for a skill like Drone Mechanics, doubly so since it's a minor, secondary skill set with no direct combat application. There are also skills with overlapping applications; Con and Disguise, First Aid and Medicine, and Dodge and Gymnastics for instance.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 03:28 AM

And those are each problems to be fixed, not examples to emulate. (Triply so for freaking Gymnastics.)

Automatics doesn't demonstrate anything about Drone Mechanic, except maybe that broad skills like that are bad. People dislike Automatics because it covers too many distinct categories, so Drone Mechanic would just as problematically make you able to work on airplanes, walkers, crawlers, etc.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 03:38 AM

Actually, the assumption is that drones are built-as-drones as opposed to converted vehicles, and that they are all relatively similar save for their specific mode of locomotion. But all of the important stuff (sensors, remote control systems, etc.) are all very similar if now downright identical. Being able to build and repair them wouldn't mean you could work on the full size vehicles anymore than my ability to build and repair an RC airplane (which I can and have) means that I can build and repair a Boeing 777 (which I definitely cannot). In this case it's very much like Automatics vs. Long Arms/Pistols/etc.

And I'm not saying the skill system is fine as is. But this isn't a discussion about fixing the skill system. It's about adapting to what's there and, as per this subtopic, asking the GM if it would be okay to add a skill similar to other ones available in the game.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 11:23 AM

How can they be relatively similar? Drones run the gamut from spider crawlers to scramjet missiles. You can't just 'except' the largest difference.

Sensors and RC are the same for all vehicles. You're describing 'Hardware' or something.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 3 2011, 11:42 AM

Look at the various engine mods. If you apply it to a gasoline engine, this would probably work similarly whether the motor powers an air propeller, a water propeller or an axle with wheels.

On the other hand adding smart tires to a dobermann shouldn't be much different from adding them to a Tata Hotspur.

Oh and don't forget the possible munchkin exploit of Drone Mechanics: Just add Rigger Adaptation, which should be an application of the skill, and any vehicle becomes a drone.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 12:42 PM

That's kind of my point, Dakka Dakka: the skill used should be specific to the *mod*. (And I'll bet you the Heimdall doesn't use a gasoline engine, heh.)

On the other hand, repairing a damaged helo drone might be wholly different from repairing a crawler, so Drone Mechanic wouldn't be fair there either.

I think it's assumed that only Drones (listed category in the books) are drones for the proposed skill, though I'm saying even the canonical examples are too diverse.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 03:41 PM

First line of my last post:

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 03:43 PM

Exactly the same way an Ares Crusader and an Ares Alpha are relatively similar.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 04:11 PM

Nope. If one fired tank shells and the other fired EMP bursts, that'd be about the similarity between a Kanmushi and a Dalmatian. Besides, you're assuming the Armorer skill is correct—who knows.

Obviously, anyone can do what they want in their game. I'm only saying that 'Drones' is a huge category that includes literally every other kind of Mechanic already in the game. That's weird. It's as if you took a new firearms skill that covered anything with SA mode (from holdouts to missile launchers).

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 05:01 PM

I wasn't talking about the Armorer skill.


No, it's pretty much identical to Automatics. Which is what I was talking about.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 05:14 PM

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, because it's even worse with the Automatics interpretation (Armorer was at least halfway sensible). We already addressed the idea that Automatics is both wrong and a bad choice to *emulate*. … And, it's still extra wrong, because all Automatics are much more similar as a group than all Drones.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Nov 3 2011, 06:08 PM

And the fact that there are automatic weapons (built with automatic firing modes, not just modified that way) that don't use the automatics skill.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 06:42 PM

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 07:43 PM

And, again, as I said, it's not okay to add a messy skill to the *unfixed* skill system. It's *not* very similar to existing ones, and the ones that are kind of close are *bad* skills that shouldn't be encouraged or emulated.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 08:08 PM

Again, skills like Automatics, Gymnastics, and Artisan say 'hello.'

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 08:36 PM

For the third time, I specifically mentioned those. It's not very similar to Automatics (to choose one at random), and Automatics is bad anyway. It's in the end of the exact sentence you quoted, except you forgot to read that far.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 08:49 PM

You can say it all you like, that doesn't mean you're correct. Artisan, in particular, is a shining example of a skill that covers a broad concept of only vaguely related abilities. It covers sculpture, carpentry, musical instruments, composition, painting, and tons of other things.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 09:09 PM

Ditto. But don't act like I hadn't specifically addressed it by misquoting me.

And that's exactly why it's a bad example. If there were 5 different [X] Artisan skills, and one that cut across them, *that* would be similar. The fact that there are distinct, non-overlapping Mechanic skills tells us that they're too different. If anything, you're arguing that there should be just one Mechanics, but certainly not that there should be a Drone Mechanics.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 3 2011, 09:12 PM

You're assuming that the suggested skill didn't usurp these subskills from the other Mechanics skills. Drone Mechanics is meant to address drone mechanics. If you want to be able to work on vehicles, you need the specific Mechanics skills for those. If you want to work on converting a regular vehicle into a drone, you need those specific Mechanics skills to do so. If you want to build or repair an actual drone, you need Drone Mechanics. It's exactly the same as other skills in the game.

Just like Automatics are somehow different from Pistols and Long Arms. Just like how Hacking is somehow different from Software. Just like how Cybercombat is somehow different from Hacking. etc.

And no, all it tells us is that the game designers smoke crack cocaine.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 3 2011, 09:18 PM

I did assume that. You've been suggesting that Drone Mechanics is the only possible skill for any work on Drones, and the rest are just for other vehicles? That's a whole different point.

I can accept that slightly more, though the central problem is still that a Kanmushi and a Heimdall are too different. As I said, that's why it's not very similar to Automatics: they're closer together than a micro spider is to a cruise missile. If Drone Mechanics is possible, then Vehicle Mechanics should exist, and the specific [X] Mechanics should not exist. Ideally, this might be the case, but it's not stable to be halfway between. Even then, you have to justify having separate skills for drones that are extremely similar to non-drone vehicles.