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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shape [Material] Fun
Posted by: Socinus Nov 13 2011, 07:00 PM
I was thinking about this spell and I started wondering what you could use it on that would be effective and awesome.
Shape [Bone], I'm not sure how you'd calculate the effects of this because you could, with very little effort, kill someone almost instantly.
Shape [Skin], again, awesome but it seems like you could very easily kill someone with it (it'd be...messy).
Posted by: HunterHerne Nov 13 2011, 07:17 PM
Shape [Bone] would have real issues, especially since you'd have to carry bones with you everywhere, or break someone's bone hard enough to force it to the surface (you can still only affect what you can see).
With either spell, it's a tough call, though technically legal. The GM may require a specific material, however (skin is several materials, including oils, generic cells, follicular cells, and other nutrients to support the processes that occur), or the GM may rule that the spell can only affect "unliving" material (in this case, "unliving" may count as any part of a multicellular creature which is still attached to a living main body)
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 13 2011, 07:24 PM
Though now thinking about it Shape Bone might be a good spell for your local Street Doc.
Posted by: HunterHerne Nov 13 2011, 07:28 PM
Fair enough.
Posted by: Falconer Nov 13 2011, 07:50 PM
I don't see an issue. The spells permanent which means it needs to be sustained for a few rounds until it is permanent.
And really at the end of the day, it's no worse than turn to goo... if you can kill someone with one... you can kill them with another. As others point out... to a magical healer it has other usefull properties (assuming the 'heal' spell doesn't already deal with broken bones and the like...).
Posted by: Udoshi Nov 13 2011, 07:51 PM
I looked into this earlier for an urban mage concept.
Shape Electricty and Shape Metal (given that shadowrun apparently uses Ferrocrete to make buildings. I wish I could find that thread on here ages ago that listed a bunch of common shadowrunverse building materials). Shape plastic may also be good.
Posted by: Kirk Nov 13 2011, 08:30 PM
Since
Posted by: Makki Nov 13 2011, 08:46 PM
the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 13 2011, 09:08 PM
New Day-Job, construction worker. Used to do the same thing in Exalted, hehe.
Posted by: Dez384 Nov 13 2011, 10:13 PM
LOS is the problem with Shape [Bone]. You normally can't bones, unless you want to pull teeth. I guess you could rip out ork/troll horns...
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 13 2011, 10:16 PM
For trolls I would say shape them to act as a blindfold.
Posted by: Modular Man Nov 13 2011, 11:55 PM
Oh yes, it's definitely on my list of spells-to-learn.
Shape [Skin], again, awesome but it seems like you could very easily kill someone with it (it'd be...messy).
Did you ever play "Vampire: The Masquerade"? (The P&P, not the PC game, of course) I've heard that there is something similar there...
Personally, I'm using "Shape Fire" as long as my GM allows me to go all Pyro (see "X-Men 2 & 3"-movies or the comics) on my enemies.
GMs are advised to view any applications of the spell closely, though. Just imagine what "Shape Air" could do, e.g. an instant vacuum or something...
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 12:01 AM
In VtM you actually have to use your hands to do it.
Posted by: Dez384 Nov 14 2011, 12:05 AM
My resident chemist wants to use Shape [water] to create a vacuum inside a body of water, and then collapse it to create a small scale nuclear fission reaction...
Posted by: Stalag Nov 14 2011, 12:49 AM
Well.. strictly speaking, Fire isn't a "Material"... it's a chemical process resulting in the release of energy... just sayin
Generally speaking, "Shape Fire" seems perfectly reasonable... though I'd probably call it "Manipulate Fire"
Posted by: HunterHerne Nov 14 2011, 12:59 AM
Generally speaking, "Shape Fire" seems perfectly reasonable... though I'd probably call it "Manipulate Fire"
It may be a chemical process, but it is one of the shape choices directly listed (and used for an example)
Posted by: Stalag Nov 14 2011, 01:03 AM
So is that more embarrassing for me for not noticing that or the SR writers for actually including it?
Posted by: HunterHerne Nov 14 2011, 01:06 AM
Both... maybe?
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 01:07 AM
If we can shape energy I think it's time to take the radiation in Glow City for a walk...
Posted by: Modular Man Nov 14 2011, 01:29 AM
Generally speaking, "Shape Fire" seems perfectly reasonable... though I'd probably call it "Manipulate Fire"
From a physical point of view, you are right. Yet, "Street Magic" varies from strict physics; it's magic, after all. P. 174 explicitly gives the example of "Fire". After all, the need to give the spell a concisive name may have blurred the exact physical look of the whole thing
Oh, well, looks like it took me way too long to formulate an answer.
Again, look at the spell from a simple rules-mechanical point of view: It's a simple manipulation spell with a moderate to slightly high drain factor. If it comes to shatter the earth with its weight, something's off.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Nov 14 2011, 01:34 AM
Well, that's got a problem of its own; mana and radioactivity are known to interact weirdly, often toxically...
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 14 2011, 01:40 AM
Why would it matter? Spells still have limited ranges and areas of effect, nor would it intensify any existing effects. That wouldn't be any more potent a spell than Shape Air, Shape Earth, or any other Shape [Abundant Element In the Area] spell. Probably less so, really, since the OR would be extraordinarily high on top of any of the background count that's most likely in the area.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 01:46 AM
IF it is possible the question is also conversation of energy. It has to go somewhere if it can be moved. Unless we can squeeze it all into a very bad lead box.
Posted by: Mercer Nov 14 2011, 02:02 AM
I don't know how useful shape concrete would be, since most important things made of concrete (floors, load-bearing walls and so on) have a lot of rebar in them. You could make firing ports through them, but you'd still have to cut (or shape) the steel to get through it.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 02:12 AM
Well the concrete is poured around the rebar so you could just place and then shape it. Or you could use a different shape spell to use better material that is usually too much a pain in the ass to use. Time to hit the junk yards and recycle like mad fiend.
Now I'm worried about the dangerous applications. Shape holes in planes for explosive decompression or shape holes in boats for a quiet sinking.
Posted by: HunterHerne Nov 14 2011, 02:13 AM
Still makes holes that can be a pain for opposition, or walls to block opponents.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 14 2011, 03:05 AM
The spell does nothing like that whatsoever. The exact effects are laid out in its description, just like with every other spell in the game. The material being shaped isn't improved/reduced/altered. Only its shape changes. Even if you did squeeze it all into a tiny little ball, that tiny little ball won't do any more inherent damage than it did in its original form.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 03:25 AM
Looking over the spell finally (not a magic man, sorry) it says that things can be extinguished. So IF Shape Radiation is possible you could just erase it... No?
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 14 2011, 03:29 AM
For as long as you sustain the spell, and only within the limited area of the spell.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 03:32 AM
That is odd. Not that i'm disputing it, but it is odd that a fire would burst back into existance after the spell is dropped... Damn you metahumanity! Start finding the science behind magic!
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 04:48 AM
Is the principle that you can't mess with sub-parts of living wholes just gone now? I'd never let anyone Shape Bone, etc. The spells that violate this principle (like Turn to Goo) are nothing but errors.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 14 2011, 04:58 AM
Except that there's plenty of spells that do that, including most Health spells. Wounds are only part of a body. Diseases, drugs, and bacteria can't be seen and exist largely within a living body, yet they can be affected by spells. Tons of spells only affect the brain, and not just that but only small parts thereof. Fashion affects the target's clothing. etc.
Posted by: pbangarth Nov 14 2011, 05:07 AM
Shape [Fire] is not actually a deviation from a restriction to material things. The flames are not pure energy, but rather gasses that have a lot of energy imparted to them, making them glow. Shape [Radiation] may or may not fit this restriction depending on the type of radiation. it would be interesting to figure out just what would happen if particles travelling at or near the speed of light were contained by magic. Where would the kinetic energy go? Turn to heat? Light?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 05:17 AM
A wounded target is a whole target, as are immune responses. I don't admit that there are any 'brain-only' spells. The target's clothing is not part of the target. None of these examples are anything like killing someone by Shape Bone.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 14 2011, 07:08 AM
Well, by that logic then you have "target with bones," which is exactly the same as "wounded target." The target has [wounds/bones] and the spell affects their [wounds/bones]. Completely interchangeable.
There are also plenty of spells that only affect the brain or other organ/group of organs. Practically every illusion, most sensory-based detection spells, Influence, Control Thoughts ("the target has [thoughts] and the spell affects their [thoughts]"), etc.
Also, if clothing is considered separate, I guess you require magicians to cast multiple Invisibility spells when they want to go invisible? I mean, they have to cast it to cover every article of clothing, each weapons, each individual piece of gear they're carrying...
You're free to be in denial all you like (much like you did with Turn To Goo), but this has always been the case. The magical "law" about only affecting a specific part of a target has been broken on a regular basis by the design teams since the law was first introduced. It's just accepted because, frankly, the law is stupid and completely destroys many, many spells. I'm not even sure why they included that silly law to begin with other than to protect buildings and massive vehicles like aircraft carriers.
Posted by: Midas Nov 14 2011, 08:03 AM
Shape Electricty and Shape Metal (given that shadowrun apparently uses Ferrocrete to make buildings. I wish I could find that thread on here ages ago that listed a bunch of common shadowrunverse building materials). Shape plastic may also be good.
Had a quick look for your thread, but me limited search-fu came up blank ...
Yeah, I think Shape Metal, Shape Concrete and Shape Plastic could be used to great effect in combination. Throw in Artisan with any of these and you could get a mage with a great day job as a sculptor ...
As for Shape Bone or Shape Skin, I wouldn't allow them as nasty offensive spells, although might as healing-type spells ...
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 14 2011, 08:10 AM
Posted by: Kirk Nov 14 2011, 01:56 PM
Actually, for shape bone and such I think I'd bring in part of the spell's restrictions:
but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls
or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart
by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat
Turn.
So you want to shape bone? great - first you've got to break it apart from the body.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 02:10 PM
There's, again, no reason to say that mental spells are affecting only the brain. Healing wounds is healing the person. Ho do you even get LOS on their bones? Nonsense. It's totally different, not 'interchangeable'. Invisibility is irrelevant, because it's affecting something *more* than the whole, not *less*. We're talking about separately targeting and affecting an integrated sub-part of a living whole. Go ahead and list the 'many, many', btw, and we'll see if they're worth it. Turn to Goo sure isn't, and could easily be fixed.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Nov 14 2011, 03:06 PM
I also don't think Shape Bone should work on internal bones. That basically makes it a non-Combat spell doing rather odd damage requiring optional special injury rules to work, which is icky. I'm not sure it's going to be Drain-costed fairly for the unknown damage it deals. Also the issue of LOS.
The entire spell is written in terms of Object Resistance, Power and Structure Rating, terms which only apply to inanimate objects. I think this is one of those cases where game designers actually consider "material" to be "inanimate material".
Don't get me wrong - a Twist Bone spell could be a cool spell to scare people with, and deserves to be in the arsenal of say, Blood Mages, but it should probably be built as a Combat spell, not created by twisting around this one.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 14 2011, 03:17 PM
BTW. You could just change the fluff of (mass) Agony to get a mechanical sub-par version of the illusion spell or you change the description of the orgasm/orgy spell for more power.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 14 2011, 04:16 PM
Energy Talks? Who Knew?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 14 2011, 04:18 PM
Seeing as how Shape Spells are permanent...
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 04:19 PM
Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.
Posted by: Paul Nov 14 2011, 04:25 PM
A lot of Shaodwrun is about the intent of an act.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 14 2011, 04:29 PM
Heh... No worries. Fire talks... Have you ever listened to the Beast?
Posted by: Ascalaphus Nov 14 2011, 04:36 PM
Yes, and that discipline has got some serious issues with it too.
Actually, I think most game systems that use abstract damage (health levels, hit points, condition monitor) have trouble with non-abstract damage (shaping bone).
I suppose there's a case to be made for a Manipulation spell, but it should be a separate, new spell, not twisting this one to work on animate matter. With explicit description of the damage it can do.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 04:37 PM
Can't say I have. Been too busy with Shape spells and thinking about building a cheap dome. It would be like a giant auto-igloo.....
And building a new office tower by using all the broken buildings in an area.
Posted by: Modular Man Nov 14 2011, 05:22 PM
Use "Shape Concrete" for the construction of a secret underground lair or for reinforcing abandoned buildings
Well, that's what I'll do aside from building ramps out of sidewalks and walls, maybe even the streets themselves, and digging through walls all the way. Just combine it with some tool to deal with other materials.
I'd say that concrete nowadays is one of the main building materials not just used in thin layers (like the metallic mesh in reinforced concrete). I may be in error, though.
Posted by: stevebugge Nov 14 2011, 05:39 PM
Earth, Air, Fire, and Water would probably be allowed not so much because they are material or immaterial in a physics science sense, but because they are the traditional Elements in Hermetic Magic, and the ability to shape and manipulate them would probably (at one time) have been considered a basic magic skill.
Posted by: CanRay Nov 14 2011, 05:48 PM
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 05:50 PM
You go sit in the corner. Right now.
Posted by: CanRay Nov 14 2011, 05:55 PM
But I don't need to rock back and forth and cry for once.
Posted by: Stahlseele Nov 14 2011, 06:03 PM
Magic does NOT work on PARTS of the whole.
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 06:09 PM
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.
Magic doesn't. Ingenuity does. That's why you don't Fix a car. You remove the broken piece, fix it, and then put it back.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 06:22 PM
Except in SR4A, where you *do* Fix [Car], right? You also have the separate option of Fix [Part], AFAIK.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 06:26 PM
As far as I can tell, and I may be wrong with my lack of using magic in games, Fix seems to be near universal... Atleast in the book I have. Did they change it in 4A? 4 just says non-living material.
Posted by: stevebugge Nov 14 2011, 09:02 PM
Let's not forget every players favorite Break [Rules System]
Posted by: CanRay Nov 14 2011, 09:06 PM
Not *EVERY* player.Oh, wait, I've never had a chance to play, maybe it is! BASTARDS THE LOT OF YOU!
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 14 2011, 09:11 PM
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.
Except for all of the exceptions where it does. As previously mentioned.
Also, that's a law for sorcery, not magic.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 09:26 PM
No, Christian, I'm not saying it's a specified spell (though you could presumably do so for reduced Drain?). I was just focusing on the fact that you target the whole thing, not a part. You can target a part, if (and only if) you remove it first.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 09:55 PM
Oh, sorry. And that is what I was thinking actually. You still have to dismantle the car and then rebuild it, but you have parts that are arguably as good as new. Pop out the windshield, wave your fingers, no more chips and cracks or spiderwebs from bullet holes, if you can find all the glass that is. Big if.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 14 2011, 10:17 PM
That is what Shape [Glass] is for. Why remove it from the vehicle to Fix it when you can just Shape it in place?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 10:36 PM
AFAIK, you *don't* remove it from the vehicle to fix it. You just Fix the vehicle. Is this not the case?
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 10:37 PM
You CAN fix the car as a whole but the limitation deals with the weight of the object. That being force X hits in kilograms. Easier to do it part by part. It comes down to can you Fix parts if you aim at a part or do you need to remove the part first. The way the argument seems to be going I assumed one would need to remove the windshield to fix it.
Posted by: stevebugge Nov 14 2011, 10:44 PM
What you can't reliably get to a combination totaling 1600 hits to repair your car?
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 10:47 PM
I would be lucky if I could fix a BMX.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 11:11 PM
That's true, Christian. I thought the car was just a metaphor for any 'integrated' inanimate object.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 11:17 PM
Nope, actually thinking of clean-up and repair after a run. My group has a problem with most of our pay going to replenishing our equipment or repairing it so I'm always on the lookout for ways to alleviate that. Be it Fixing the side panel on the armored van, Shaping the confiscated rounds we have no use for into calibers we need, and the like.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 14 2011, 11:30 PM
Calibers?
It seems like that's a problem for many runners: no one would take the jobs if they cost more to do than they pay. :/ And yet, we do.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 14 2011, 11:34 PM
It doesn't help we do a lot of vigilante freelance.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 15 2011, 12:11 AM
"This spell implants a single suggestion in the victim’s mind."
"The caster seizes control of the target’s mind."
"This spell allows the caster to add, alter, or erase a single memory."
In exactly the same way you target their wounds. Or their thoughts. Or anything else that's only a part of the whole.
Want an example of another spell that already does this very thing? Oxygenate. Know why? Here's why. "This spell [oxygenates] the [blood] of a voluntary subject" vs. "This spell [shapes] the [bones] of a voluntary subject." It is no different. At all. Because spells have always operated like this in the game, from the very beginning, despite that one alleged (but constantly broken) law of sorcery.
Except for the small detail of it simply being the other side of the coin. You're looking at it from one side doesn't mean the other side isn't there. If that spell affects "the whole," then any spell that doesn't is only affecting part of the whole. Whether it's Fashion, which only affects their outfit, or Heal, which only affects their wounds. Be they internal injuries, including broken bones, or external and easily visible wounds.
More examples? "Petrify transforms living tissue into stone-like calcium carbonate." Not clothes, not gear, not dead tissue, not implants; only living tissue. Just like Turn to Goo.
How about Makeover? "This spell creates a complete makeover for a voluntary subject, including cosmetics, hair, and nails. It even polishes teeth and eliminates plaque."
I have listed them. Repeatedly. Ignoring or dismissing them doesn't really mean much of anything. And Turn to Goo is, without a doubt, completely and utterly, only affecting part of the subject. It is a canon spell. It's not "broken." It's exactly as it was designed to be. And it's not unique in that regard.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 15 2011, 12:24 AM
Thoughts are not 'a part' of a person, and neither is their mind 'a part'. The spell is targeting and affecting 'the person'.
The other side of a coin is still a different side, one we're not talking about. We're talking about targeting a sub-part of a living whole, not about targeting a non-living super-part. You're healing the whole. You are not targeting their broken bones.
If you listed them before, it wasn't to me. Makeover is affecting the whole, not targeting their plaque. Oxygenate isn't targeting blood, it's targeting the person. You can't even get LOS on their blood.
Turn to Goo is an awful anomaly, which no one ever said wasn't targeting part of the whole. That's *why* it's broken. Petrify is the same spell as Goo, just a variation. Things can certainly be designed broken in SR, as we know only too well. 'Canon' doesn't mean 'good' or 'right'. There is no reason those (weird, unnecessary) spells couldn't be fixed by making them affect the whole person (and clothes, though that is—again—not what we're talking about).
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 15 2011, 12:31 AM
You are misunderstanding the way magic works. Ol' Scratch. Yerameyahu kind of already said it but to make it clear: While magic can produce effects that seem to affect only part of a target (healing wounds, only altering physical appearance etc.). You cannot target a part of a whole: There is no way to choose a particular set of wounds or only use Fashion on the buttons of a jacket or only oxygenate a person's foot.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 15 2011, 12:40 AM
I never said there was. I said a spell could be made to affect someone's bones; the spell is targeting the subject, not their bones directly. In exactly the same way all of those other spells operate. Including, again, spells like Oxygenate which only affects their blood, or Petrify which only affects their living tissue.
The "law" doesn't make any sense because of that. Any spell that you describe as only affecting part of the subject can be worded so that it affects the subject themselves. And there's no "seeming" about it. They are only affecting part of the subject, such as Heal, even though you're targeting the subject as a whole.
The entire point of the law is two-fold anyway. 1) to prevent players from destroying buildings or massive vehicles by targeting strategic parts of it, and 2) to prevent having to come up with detailed called shot rules and hit locations. Existing spells break it all the time because they're worded in such a way that neither of those things are possible.
Posted by: Nerdynick Nov 15 2011, 12:47 AM
Luckily, most walls have AR paint, so just take off your AR glasses and you should be able to see them just fine
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 15 2011, 12:51 AM
*shrug* What you just described isn't Shape [Bone]. It's "Mess With Someone's Bones". Such a spell would be fine, though totally different. Bones barely exist in the rules anyway, so it would actually be applying a penalty/DV to the whole person in the end. Fluff is just fluff; 'Sleep' just applies Stun damage to the whole person, for example. Petrify/Goo, however, would rightly be impossible to create if they didn't already exist in the game, because of grandfathering and error; they also have no reason to exist in their current form. Petrifying/Gooing Essence-paid implants wouldn't change the spells, except to remove stupid tricks, and make them obey the targeting rules.
Posted by: stevebugge Nov 15 2011, 01:00 AM
Which really does beg the unasked question: Why the hell did Turn to Goo return after a 2 edition hiatus? (Not implying that Yerameyahu has the answer in any way here, just a good time to ask)
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 15 2011, 04:33 AM
I never said it was the Shape [Material] spell. I said a spell can affect the target's bones.
And yet there they are, working 100% as described despite the laws of sorcery.
Heh. Actually, on a hunch, I just referenced the actual laws. Guess what; it's not one of 4th edition's limits to sorcery. Street Magic, "The Limits of Sorcery" sidebars on pages 159-160. Even better, those same rules specifically tell you that you can say "fuck it" to any of them if you want.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 15 2011, 12:56 PM
Shape [Bone] is what we were talking about. Sorry if you were talking about something different.
We've been over this: being RAW doesn't make it right. There are hundreds of examples of this.
I never called it a law. It's a principle.
*All* the rules in the whole book have the 'change this' caveat, so that's irrelevant.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 15 2011, 02:58 PM
No, that's what sparked it. People were saying that spells can't affect a subject's bones because they're not in line of sight, amongst other weird arguments. Which is all patently untrue.
Call it what you will, it's not a part of 4th Edition's rules for sorcery. And, again, there's several spells that demonstrate it. No matter how much you want to stick your head in the sand about them. It's not like its only one spell that's an outlier.
Very few emphasize it.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 15 2011, 03:32 PM
It's true: you can't cast a spell on someone's bones per LOS, even if it were otherwise allowed. You can cast a 'My Bones Are Screwed Up' spell on a person, which is different.
There's basically (one) spell: Petrify/Goo. Your other examples are not targeting parts.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 15 2011, 04:09 PM
There's basically (one) spell: Petrify/Goo. Your other examples are not targeting parts.
I've been saying affecting. Targeting != affecting. Turn to Goo, Petrify, Control Thoughts, etc. all affect specific parts of the target. You don't target them, you target the subject who has the parts you want to affect.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 15 2011, 04:16 PM
*shrug* I also/alternatively deny that your other examples are *affecting* parts, then. Heal, Oxygenate, and mental controls are abstractly affecting the whole, in a way that Goo fundamentally is not.
The issue is the weird fluff, as I said. A fire spell could conceivably burn a person to ashes, without turning their (cyber) implants to ashes. You wouldn't say, though, that the spell 'turns the person to ashes; cyber is not affected'.
Posted by: stevebugge Nov 15 2011, 10:57 PM
Going back to the original premise of what could Shape [Insert Material here] be creatively used for.
Going more subtle Shape Paperboard, ever wanted to create a window in a box to see what's in it? Need a quick distraction add a hole to someones SoyKaf cup and watch as piping hot embarrassment ensues, turn an old box in to a makeshift one shot club.
Posted by: DMiller Nov 16 2011, 02:38 AM
Just wondering...
Would any of you allow "Shape Water" to condense the water out of the air to make drinkable water in an area that doesn't have a normal water source? Of course I'm assuming enough humidity available in the air.
-D
Posted by: Paul Nov 16 2011, 03:24 AM
Yes. If nothing else because anyone creative enough to think of that deserves at least a shot of pulling it off.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 03:46 AM
That, and it's a meaningless impossible-to-abuse effect.
Posted by: pbangarth Nov 16 2011, 06:19 AM
The crew around here can find a way to abuse anything.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Nov 16 2011, 06:34 AM
They thought they were safe. They never noticed the fine coating of cesium they stood upon. And never would, thanks to pulling that one drop of water out of thin air.....
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 16 2011, 07:55 AM
Would any of you allow "Shape Water" to condense the water out of the air to make drinkable water in an area that doesn't have a normal water source? Of course I'm assuming enough humidity available in the air.
Posted by: The Jopp Nov 16 2011, 03:29 PM
The problem I have with the whole "shape" spell concept is in the descriptions - how *exact* do you have to be in the description?
Shape "stone" covers everything from loose sand to rock.
Should shape "fire" then mean anything from Lava to campfire? Or do i need shape stone+fire?
For convenience I tried to compile a few spells that included most of it.
Name: Shape (Object/Item)
Class: Manipulation (Enviromental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
Shape spells can manipulate a specific object or item and mould it like it was made out of soft clay.
This spell allows the caster to shape a specific object chosen when creating/obtaining the spell (Wall, Ceiling, Vehicle, Door) or item (commlink, pistol, element or material (air, earth, water, fire, mud, lava, plasteel, concrete, tar, etc.) within range.
The caster must beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). The material can be reshaped in any way the caster desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters per turn but not actually moved.
Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.
This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.
Name: Shape (Material)
Class: Manipulation (Enviromental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
Shape Material is a modified version of the “Shape Element” – You will need a specific spell for each type of material. Below are a few examples.
Metal
All kinds of refined metal from Iron to Gold
Ceramics
Due to the diversity of this material a spell is needed for each sub-category - See Below
-Structural
Including bricks, pipes, floor and roof tiles Refractories, such as kiln linings, gas fire radiants, steel and glass making crucibles
-Whitewares
Including tableware, wall tiles, decorative art objects and sanitary wares
-Technical
Such items include tiles used in the Space Shuttle program, gas burner nozzles, ballistic protection, nuclear fuel uranium oxide pellets, bio-medical implants, jet engine turbine blades, and missile nose cones.
-Fused
Plascrete, Concrete, Plaster, Mortar, Tarmac
-Plastics
Rubber, soft and hard plastic materials (bags, model kits etc) and silicone.
The caster must beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). The material can be reshaped in any way the caster desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters per turn but not actually moved.
Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.
This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 16 2011, 03:44 PM
This is seriously overpowered. "OK I make the diameter of the barrels of all guns within the area 3mm smaller." 4 hits should be doable for most mages and all guns are worthless.
Posted by: Minimax le Rouge Nov 16 2011, 03:55 PM
You can only target something you have a LOS on it. Not somethink you can see. Water in the air, is just like air or like water when i'm underwater : i can have a LOS on it even if i don't really see it.
Posted by: Paul Nov 16 2011, 03:59 PM
That's what the GM is for. To facilitate cool story telling, and ruthlessly squash game stopping abuse.
Posted by: The Jopp Nov 17 2011, 10:23 AM
How is that different from "shape metal"
Not to mention that highly processed materials (guns) would require a MINIMUM 5+ hits. So at minimum you need F6. Also, remember that it needs to be sustained for 15 minutes to be permanent.
And how is that different/more overpowered from shape earth where I can shape the rock someone stands on to act as a spear and impale him from ass to mouth?
Everything is overpowered in someone elses eyes. I can make a gun overpowered with very little effort wit´hout breaking any game rules. It's all about what level of play you go for.
Not to mention that it is MAGIC - its supposed to be bloody powerful as you break the laws of physics.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 17 2011, 03:26 PM
Not to mention that highly processed materials (guns) would require a MINIMUM 5+ hits. So at minimum you need F6. Also, remember that it needs to be sustained for 15 minutes to be permanent.
Your sustaining of Permanent Spells is WAY off. Here, let me help you with that...
So, assuming Force 6 (Though Force 5 WOULD work, you only have to meet the threshold of OR), you have 6 Drain. Which is 12 Combat Turns. 12 Combat Turns is equal to 36 Seconds. A FAR Cry from 15 Minutes.
Just Saying.
And I would put Guns at OR 3, not OR 5. They are Manufactured 'High Tech' Obects. I would not place them at 'Highly Processed.'
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 17 2011, 03:32 PM
Posted by: Draco18s Nov 17 2011, 04:11 PM
I just want to point this section out and then beat my face into a table.
This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.
Say, for instance, one has Shape [Stone] and is digging a tunnel underground and hits bedrock.
What's the Structure Rating of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Plate?
How is Shape [Walls] "rapid", if one has to spend rounds breaking the wall out of the overall structure of the building?
How is Shape [Walls] not just better than Shape [Concrete]?
Posted by: Stahlgewitter Nov 17 2011, 04:34 PM
Say, for instance, one has Shape [Stone] and is digging a tunnel underground and hits bedrock.
What's the Structure Rating of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Plate?
How is Shape [Walls] "rapid", if one has to spend rounds breaking the wall out of the overall structure of the building?
How is Shape [Walls] not just better than Shape [Concrete]?
Its "rapid" cause it would take much longer with a jackhammer (/powerdrill etc) and its silenced
Shape [Walls] is better if you only want to gain access or seal a room, but if you also want to create obstacles (zb panzerigel) or cover it would be pretty useless.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Nov 17 2011, 04:42 PM
But does the reshaping happen only when it becomes permanent, or immediately? In which case the spell becomes useful for creating temporary holes in walls, or throttling guns for only a few moments, enough to disarm people and yet loot the guns afterwards..
Posted by: Draco18s Nov 17 2011, 04:57 PM
It reshapes immediately and is temporary (i.e. stops when the spell ends) until it becomes permanent (drain * 2 rounds after it's cast).
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 17 2011, 05:06 PM
The only unresolved issue with this mechanism is what happens if you do not sustain the heal spell long enough. Is it a healing attempt or can you cast the spell again until you get the desired hits, if you can deal with the drain.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Nov 17 2011, 05:19 PM
Or can you use Heal offensively, to lock someone out of future healing attempts?
Posted by: pbangarth Nov 17 2011, 05:57 PM
Nasty bugger, aren't you?
Posted by: Stahlseele Nov 17 2011, 06:00 PM
Both yes and no i'd think.
Each set of wounds can only be healed once.
But as soon as he gets hurt again, that damage can be healed again.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 06:14 PM
That's the old 'set of wounds' question. Anyway, seems like a pretty niche use. And probably metagaming.
Posted by: Draco18s Nov 17 2011, 06:19 PM
Each set of wounds can only be healed once.
But as soon as he gets hurt again, that damage can be healed again.
Are you saying that a guy with 10 boxes of wounds can have 3 of them magically healed, have 1 box inflicted, then 3 magically healed again (over and over until he's hale and healthy)?
Because it most certainly doesn't work that way.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 17 2011, 06:23 PM
Let's no start that old debate - at least not in this thread.
Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 06:46 PM
Because it most certainly doesn't work that way.
Courtesy of the abstract nature of the rules, it most definitely does work that way. Damage isn't tracked and recorded separately. Wounds are not distinguished in any way whatsoever, aside from Stun, Physical, or Overflow. You have 5 boxes of damage. You get hit again for three boxes, and you now have 8 boxes of damage, not 5+3.
Posted by: Draco18s Nov 17 2011, 06:58 PM
Alright then, due to the abstract nature of the rules, why then could you not just cast Heal twice without adding 1 box first? Same effect, less stupidity.
That is: what is it about that "inflict 1 box" step that turns one set of wounds (healed) into another set of wounds (unhealed)?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 07:01 PM
Courtesy, you mean, of the broken and badly-written nature of the rules.
Posted by: Draco18s Nov 17 2011, 07:05 PM
That'd be the RAW not the RAI.
If it was intended that you be able to cast Heal twice on the same boxes, then you'd be able to cast Heal twice without needing to inflict more damage.
Duh.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Nov 17 2011, 08:21 PM
The problem is that wounds are never defined in the rulebook. A set means that it can contain one or more wounds. Any not completely soaked attack should cause at least one wound (however you may define it). If you heal any boxes and then add another or several wounds the result is a different set than before the addition. As such you get another attempt.
The other problem with interpreting the wording as "you cannot heal any of the remaining boxes form a previous attempt even if new damage was inflicted" is that this would have to make magic intelligent. It then has to choose which boxes may be healed and which may not.
SCNR
Posted by: stevebugge Nov 17 2011, 08:39 PM
The other problem with interpreting the wording as "you cannot heal any of the remaining boxes form a previous attempt even if new damage was inflicted" is that this would have to make magic intelligent. It then has to choose which boxes may be healed and which may not.
SCNR
I'd never quite caught this before but that really does seem to be the problem, to be fair Shadowrun isn't the only ones with this problem the NFL did a pretty poor job defining what a football move was for purposes of determining if a dropped ball is an incomplete pass or a fumble.
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