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Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 16 2011, 06:22 AM

Camouflage suits offer a bonus to infiltration & other stealth like stuff in the appropriate areas, if the camo matches the environment. Chameleon suits have the Ruthenium coating with allows them to blend with everything.

So why bother getting camo suits when chameleon is so much better & goes with everything? Does the chameleon suit have any drawbacks? Since it's a tech based item, seems like it would show up on heat sensors or other sensors that pick up energy, as the suit must use power to operate it's light-bending capabilities, while camo doesn't.

However, if it's only heat, adding Thermal Dampening would fix that no worries. Any thoughts or ideas, or is camo outdated & useless if you can grab chameleon.

Posted by: Loch Nov 16 2011, 06:37 AM

Don't camo suits also have better armor?

Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 16 2011, 06:58 AM

Only by 2 points. So far, camo is cheaper (by a lot) that chameleon, & offers 2 points better protection. It also doesn't need a license to get as it's not restricted. However, you can wear chameleon everywhere, & get a -4 perception bonus as opposed to the -2 you get from camo (if it's in the right setting, a +2 penalty if it's not).

Posted by: Irion Nov 16 2011, 07:02 AM

Yes, chameleon is better...

Posted by: TheOOB Nov 16 2011, 08:28 AM

Better armor, much less expensive, much lower availability(and not restricted at all).

While it's true that chameleon suits are generally better for stealth, most paramilitary groups(corp security, mercs, ect), would rather save the money and get the better armored one instead. For runners it's useful if you need to do a border crossing and can't afford to take restricted gear, it'll be to get through most checkpoints, and even available on the other side on the open market.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 16 2011, 12:56 PM

As pointed out elsewhere, Ruthenium Polymer coating trumps them both.




-k

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Nov 16 2011, 01:17 PM

The idea is to get a full-body suit armor (which the camouflage armor is one) and apply Ruthenium to it. TA DA! Now you have a piece of armor with the same penalty to Perception with better armor.

Posted by: Redjack Nov 16 2011, 01:46 PM

Remember: Chameleon suits change pattern to match their surroundings, camo suits have a set pattern and the -2 only applies where the pattern is relevant; Elsewhere it is +2 bonus to perception.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 02:04 PM

I'm glad someone already pointed out the obvious: things have different Avail, price, etc. It's like asking, 'why buy a Ford when there's Ferrari right there?'

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 16 2011, 02:47 PM

One other neat thing you can do with Camo armor plays off this:

"Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter
the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images
from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more
commlinks."
- SR4, 20th anniv, pg326, Clothing and Armor

My GM lets me download a reasonable number of "skins" on to my link, and load them into my camo armor as needed. It's nowhere as fast or as complete as Ruthenium, of course, but if I need to go from woodland camo pattern #4 to urban camo pattern #12, I can do so in a reasonable amount of time.

End result, if you have some prep time, and a few sec to change the skin when you change environment, you always get the -2.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 03:09 PM

… That doesn't sound like Camo Suit at all. It seems to be talking about 'clothing', not 'armor', and doesn't say anything about peforming any camo effect (nor mitigating the camo-mismatch penalty, let alone getting the -2 bonus). It sounds like cheating; if it were possible *and* inherent, why would the camo suit rules even exist?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 16 2011, 05:00 PM

And yet, you can use the Ruthenium Coating to do just what is being discussed. It is MORE EXPENSIVE. so it is not really all that big of a concern.
This is not uncommon in game, from what I understand.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 05:04 PM

No one said you couldn't, TJ. He said you could do it *without Ruthenium*, for free, by default. Pay attention.

Posted by: Larsine Nov 16 2011, 05:23 PM

The chameleon suit is a tech based item, so it might be sensitive to EMP attacks.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 06:15 PM

Essentially the only thing vulnerable to EMP is Signal.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 16 2011, 07:00 PM

My point was that it is not Cheating, as you stated...
It did not seem like that was what he was saying, either, since he was apparently quoting the use of Ruthenium Polymers (Rather than the Chameleon Suit).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 07:08 PM

And my point is that it *is* cheating to claim the powers of Ruthenium… without actually buying and using Ruthenium. He was specifically quoting a *non-use* of Ruthenium, if you'd check the book reference.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 16 2011, 07:26 PM

Got it. Did not look at the book. Let me do that...
After having read it. I see the passage as a description (read: Fluff) of Basic and Advanced Ruthenium Systems. Which you would have to buy, Just like the implanted comlink (from the fluff description in the passage) in the shirt, etc. Fluff does not a rule make, after all.

Basic Ruthenium does everything the passage says it does.
Advanced Ruthenium is more along the lines of the Chameleon Suit.

*shrug*

Have to agree with you on the 'Cheating' if he is not actually purchasing the basic ruthenium capabilities.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 07:41 PM

Yes. The dangers of finagling powers out of fluff, especially for anti-logical munchkin reasons.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 16 2011, 07:47 PM

Ruthenium aside, while camo maybe cheaper, it's for a particular environment. So, to cover all the possible environments a runner can goto, chameleon is cheaper as it has the ability to go anywhere.

As for ruthenium, it seems that is the goto for covering all your gear so you can be "stealthy".

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 16 2011, 07:59 PM

But you could take the Camouflage, put Ruthenium Coating on it (without getting all the expensive sensor upgrades for full Chameleon Suit) for far cheaper than the Chameleon Suit, and still get the +2 Camouflage in any environment (whether moving or not). It just takes a little programming/download time to get the appropriate "Camoflauge Pattern" for the environment and apply it to the Camouflage suit.

Easy Peasy.

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 16 2011, 09:05 PM

This is the train of logic I presented to my GM:

Based on my above quote, and the fact that there is no listed charge for clothing that can change color or pattern, I deduce that it is so cheap and easy in 2070 that most clothes will have that feature.

Based on the armor descriptions (that same page), all the armor in the base book, except for the full body armor, is made from flexible ballistic materials. Some might add hard ballistic plates for extra protection. In either case, they would require some kind of fabric garment to hold the armor panels together and make them look remotely normal.

So far, we have two key facts: Fabric that can change its appearance is cheap in the 2070s, and most armor would have a fabric outer layer.

Now for the speculation: A camo suit is just an armored garment that has a specific set of colors and patterns on it. Does it make sense that a military-grade combat uniform would lack a feature that your Trog-o-palooza '71 souvenir t-shirt has?

To answer some of your concerns, no this isn't ruthenium for free. This is starting the day with one camo pattern, and later taking a few turns with my commlink to find a more appropriate camo pattern and then waiting a turn or so for the new settings to load and the pigments to change. It still gets the same -2 die pool mod, and if my environment changes, until I take the time to change patterns, I would take the +2 die pool penalty.

It is an important distinction that the camo suit has a static pattern, while the Chameleon suit has a dynamic pattern. The camo suit just takes a representative set of colors and shapes that blend into an environment, a chameleon suit copies that exact locale. Even down to the NERPS ad on the wall behind you.

Lastly, guys, I hope the posts just didn't come out the way you intended, but don't accuse me of cheating in a matter that didn't happen at your table.. I cleared this idea with the final arbiter of crunch and fluff at my table, my GM, so it is right, at my table. You can say that it wouldn't be allowed at your table, but that it all.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 16 2011, 09:09 PM

It's not 'full ruthenium', but it's definitely doing something that the rules do not say the camo suit can do. It's also doing something that the rules strongly imply the camo suit cannot do. It is *also* inventing new rules to account for this ('waiting a turn or so', etc.).

I wasn't talking about whether it made sense in the game world, but whether it made sense in the game rules: it doesn't. You're talking about house rules, that alter the game balance, for free. And while every table is free to change *any* rule, that doesn't change the base, common rules. Sorry if your feelings were hurt, but you're certainly cheating per the actual base rules, under my definition.

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 16 2011, 09:16 PM

Yeah, I'm done here, you two have fun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 16 2011, 10:31 PM

Except that Yerameyahu is right Ed_209a. What you are using for "rules" is only fluff. Do you allow any clothing to just have a Comlink in it by default too? By your definition of the quote you made, this should be the case. Basic Ruthenium is what you are describing (and what iis in the quote you used.) It requires a cost, which is in the book. Clothing does not come with it by default.

Just Saying...

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 16 2011, 10:58 PM

It's all perfectly logical and appropriate to the rules. Shadowrun has long been plagued by lazy design teams who just cut and paste, talk past each other, and otherwise communicate like shit when "writing" (translation: "cutting and pasting") many of the rules. Camouflage is one such rule where it would have been nice if they had actually read what they already wrote regarding a basic function of most clothing in the game.

And no, just as that rule describes, it isn't the more advanced Ruthenium Polymers that make Chameleon Suits possible. But it does specifically allow you to change the colors and complex images and patterns on your clothing, just not at the lightning fast speed that Ruthenium Polymers allows. It even says that clearly, in black and white, right after describing the colorshifting possibilities available to all clothing and armor. This function is completely free and a default trait of all clothing and armor in the game, unless the rules (or personal preference) directly states otherwise.

Additionally, no, that same paragraph does not say that all clothing and armor comes with commlinks. It says that you can weave a commlink or other gadget into it, and that they then effectively become powered by the clothing itself (which is a default benefit of Sixth World outfits).

The fault isn't even with the Camouflage Suit. It doesn't say this isn't possible at all, only that you can reverse it for day/night patterns, and that as long as you're wearing it for the environment it's (currently) patterned for, you get the listed benefits. Nowhere does it say that it's limited to a single day/night pattern.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 16 2011, 11:26 PM

Again, Ol' Scratch, what you are referring to is FLUFF, that exactly mimics the Crunch of BASIC Ruthenium.

Posted by: Stahlgewitter Nov 16 2011, 11:46 PM

Fluff or not is up to his GM.
I would give it a boni -1 and it takes 10min to change only if he invests some rp effort.

also there is a lot of use for cheap camo with better protection. cause your pretty nice and pricey Ruthsuit will get bulletholes, slashes etc and soon youll have to replace it.
(sorry no repairing ruth. )
also there always the lowpower grp in which you maybe know what ruth. is but never have the money for it.

Posted by: Jazz Nov 16 2011, 11:58 PM

Flying heads are head shots both ways

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 12:37 AM

Stahlgewitter, only if you've added some kind of 'gear damage' rule to the basic rules.

While that fluff block does indeed imply that all clothing (and therefore probably armor) gets those basic 'smart' functions… it doesn't give any mechanical effect. So you can change color all you want (without, again, any rules for speed), but you can't gain any benefit from it. Yes, this is a case of bad rule-writing. No, it doesn't mean you should assume the Camo Suit actually gives -2 everywhere (unless you deliberately choose a bad pattern).

You could write a house rule to *fix* this problem, but you can't assume it doesn't exist.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 01:09 AM

Wrong as usual. The advanced Ruthenium Polymers you're blathering on about provide double the benefit of what a camouflage pattern does. It also provides virtual invisibility, instantly adapting to any environment its taken into, which camouflage does not.

Whether it's an early attempt ruthenium polymers (ie, "basic ruthenium") or some other method (the rules never state what it is, only that it exists), people can change any outfit they like into any basic or complex pattern, scheme, or color they like. It's just not adaptive like Ruthenium Polymers are. And it is a general rule for clothing in the Sixth World, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

You're simply wrong. It's not a matter of opinion. It's in black and white, and completely free of cost. Just like weaving a commlink into your clothing is free if you really want to. But you still have to buy the commlink in that case; it's only the weaving of it that's free of charge.

The only argument is whether or not other outfits can gain the mechanical benefit of Camouflage Suits, since the benefits are listed with the suit and not a clothing modification. But there is nothing wrong with using the color/pattern shifting abilities of a Camouflage Suit to change which environment its suited for, no matter how many weak and embarrassingly wrong arguments you try to offer up.

A GM can, of course, say "no." Just like anything else in the game.

Posted by: Juno Nov 17 2011, 01:51 AM

The fluff doesn't apply any one thing consistently really. It has gawd awful paper flats in there too, and good old fashioned rags for the wretched poor. There's no way those either of them can turn into a Burberry tartan pattern, or a designer logo.

Hell, I'd bet certain ranges and shades of colours were trademarked. That's exactly the kind of insanity I'd expect to have to deal with sooner or later. Corp colours. Like gang colours, scaled up to a home-taping is killing music! sized level of insanity. Breaking into an ultra high security facility, risking life and limb, to switch an ink cartridge that is going to be used to print this Tuesday's new fashion line, so that Horizon can no longer claim in front of the corporate court to consistently use Pearlescent Blue #9654 in their logo's shading, since, clearly the first batch included Pearlescent Blue #9564 - which has been used exclusively by EVO in their medical range for STI self test products.

As ever, the GM is the final authority. Attitude even began with making a point of showing the differences between how trids depict how Shadowrunners (stereotypically) dress versus the reality, if my memory serves correctly.

I'm not criting his idea or his GMs approach, but for a juryrigged a solution to camoflaging like that sounds more than a little opportunistic without the risk of it failing catastrophically. If infiltration is meant to be an exciting part of a run then why should even an off the rack sweatshirt and a little search and coding be enough to hide from security guards.

I'd be happier if the possiblity of a critical glitch rolled on a large-ish dice pool could in the appearance of a high contrast bullseye on the shirt, right in front of a no-longer-bored troll security guard, complete with a hardened shotgun in one hand and a twee motivational kitten gift mug of "Go get 'em champ!" in the other.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 01:53 AM

Sorry, I should have said 'any clothing can get' instead of 'all clothing gets'. I agree, and that's the nature of fluff.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 17 2011, 01:54 AM

It is not really wort arguing with you Doc... So, have a great evening...

Posted by: Bodak Nov 17 2011, 04:57 AM

What about: That's a clothing/armour mod that sounds like it does just the thing you're trying to do.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33910 is of course an easy way to go if you have a spellcaster on the team.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 05:05 AM

Yes, but that's specifically to modify transparent material, which is something the standard option for clothing doesn't allow (only colors and patterns). It's also specifically Ruthenium Polymers, not the more generic color-shifting materials used in other outfits.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 05:20 AM

Those are some pretty fine hairs.

Posted by: Bodak Nov 17 2011, 05:42 AM

I thought the part I quoted said it was "to change the opaque parts".

Anyway, if all/any/standard clothing could already "alter the color or display complex images and patterns" without ruthenium then would there be any purpose Second Line charging 1000Y for this feature as an optional extra? I'd say anything able to "display complex images and patterns" could "display signs and slogans" and more.

That they charge extra for it suggests to me it does something more than normal clothing/armour does, not just that it does the same thing in a needlessly complex and expensive way.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 07:16 AM

See the very first paragraph in my very first post in this thread. The real answer is there.

If there is an error, it's with the Second Skin (I did misread opaque as transparent in my previous reply; sorry about that). The correct assumption that accounts for everything, however, is that Second Skin is one of the outfits that doesn't have this option available by default, and you have to pay the extra 1,000 nuyen to gain it. That doesn't mean the base rule -- the one quoted several times -- doesn't apply to everything else. Additionally, this rule is specifically calling a need for Ruthenium Polymers; apparently the outfit is too fragile to handle the 'heartier' options in standard clothing, most of which gets away with much cheaper alternatives ass quoted: "Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns."

The base rule (all clothing comes with this feature) trumps any specific rules. Second Skin is a specific rule. The color/patternshifting property of most clothes in the Sixth World is the base rule even if the designers incompetently forget about it time and time again. This is hardly the only place it happens.

House rule it to your heart's content. That doesn't change what's written in black and white on page 326 of SR4A.

But hey, if we're going to just randomly ignore any rule we want simply because it's listed in the "fluff" introduction for a category of equipment, then I guess you're free to use Edge with skillsofts without any special hardware (SR4A p. 330 notes that you don't, but it's just "fluff," neh?). Also, your cool sunglasses and contact lenses with all those fancy mods aren't wireless, since that's just part of the "fluff" description on page 332. Guess you're going to have to pay extra to get that functionality (even if it's not listed anywhere). Ditto for cyberware (p. 338).

Hooray for ignoring anything we want and calling it the rules as written!

Posted by: Irion Nov 17 2011, 07:24 AM

Sometime I really wonder, why you need to make everything blink in Shadowrun.
If you want it make one jacket which does it and make it clear what it does and what not.

Keep the complexity low, and you will end up with rules without too much holes in them...

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Nov 17 2011, 12:19 PM

If the complexity WERE low, then there would not be any holes, because the detail could be filled in at a whim.

However, what we're having is a complex system FULL of holes, because the writers, or rather those who commisioned them, were too lazy or too stingy to actually produce a finished product.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 12:41 PM

Hooray for twisting the logic to suit whichever side you've chosen? Again, the fluff-as-written might imply that clothing has this 'smart' function, but it *doesn't* give any mechanical effect at all. It certainly doesn't imply that Camo Suit can retain the -2 bonus by using it, and the fact that the Camo Suit has a penalty condition strongly implies that you can't trivially, quickly change it. It's all just implication, but that's the less stupid and ridiculous option.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Nov 17 2011, 01:30 PM

If there were a mechanical option for this electronically patterned clothing then it wouldn't be a problem: clearly a pattern is just a pattern and not giving a mechanical benefit for an appropriate camo pattern is just willfully being a dick. However, I can't find any "lesser ruthenium" in the books. Maybe my rules-fu just sucks, though.

Posted by: Irion Nov 17 2011, 01:37 PM

And thats the reason you always have to read the rules like: It is only allowed, what is stated in the crunch.
If you don`t you end up with such silly discussion...

No, actually you can be the lazyiest *** ** * ***** and still get a system without loop holes. It is more about: I want that cool thing and this cool thing and oh this is shiny..

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 01:42 PM

Brainpiercing: Perhaps, but two bad rules don't make a right. We have a couple choices, as I see the situation:

1) all clothing and armor gets -2, because if Camo can do it, everything can;
2) add a 'smart clothing' mod (I keep calling it that because of Eclipse Phase, sorry), which you could get for your Camo Suit or anything else.
(The 'smart' mod can be called ruthenium or not; some people are of the opinion that the difference between 'ruthenium' and 'chameleon' is the camera/sensor/computer package, so that's simple enough.)

Anything wrong with these, as opposed to just giving only Camo Suit a special power it doesn't otherwise seem to have?

Posted by: Fabe Nov 17 2011, 02:47 PM

Has any one given any thought to the possibility that although clothing in 2072 has "Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns." that maybe these only make up part of the clothing like labels and patches and not the whole outfit? The rules don't say either way so there is no real way to know for sure.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 03:44 PM

… Nope. But that's a possible subset, sure. Anything is possible, under vague fluff.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 17 2011, 03:51 PM

And yet, You excel at this... As you have been doing this entire thread.
Yes, Clothing CAN do what you are describing, but ONLY IF you add the requisite technology. It does not come for free.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 05:21 PM

Yes. It. Does.

Just like your glasses and monocles come with wireless technology for free. It's a basic, fundamental aspect of the technology. Just like the color/pattern-shifting technology used in clothing and armor. They're described exactly the same way, in exactly the same areas of the rules. YOU'RE the one deciding to randomly ignore one over the other.

There is no listed cost for it for a reason.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 05:53 PM

Except the Camo Suit indicates that it can't do that, or it'd have no reason to mention the penalty and *not* mention the trivial way to avoid it. There would also be some rule that all clothing can have -2 camo bonus, and there'd be a rule for how fast the change happens (including 'instantly').

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 17 2011, 06:17 PM

No. It. Doesn't. (See, I can do that too...)
You just go on wearing those Blinders...

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 06:39 PM

"Clothing in 2072 comes with some incredible options to enhance its wearer’s quality of life. Commlinks, music players, and other electronic devices are often woven right into the fabric, powered by interwoven batteries or special fabrics with solar recharging capability. Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more commlinks. More advanced ruthenium polymer systems can take on any color the user wishes in seconds, scanning the surroundings so she can melt into the background (or stand out from a crowd)."

Price check on the mentioned "[e]lectrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features," please, complete with page references and quotes if you don't mind.

Oh wait, there isn't one and there aren't any. Because it's a standard feature of clothing. Which is why it's described as a standard feature of clothing.

And no, it's not Ruthenium Polymers. That's a specific set of rules with significantly more advanced functionality, and what they're describing in the last sentence of the quote. There is no "basic ruthenium" beyond a fluff description of how the standard feature works. "Fluff" is used to describe how the rule -- in this case, the color and pattern-changing aspects of clothing -- works. That is a rule. Black and white. Quoted and referenced countless times.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 17 2011, 07:02 PM

Yes, it is Ruthenium Polymers. And it is NOT a standard feature of clothing. It is an OPTION. One that you pay for. Buy a basic clothing suit for 20 Nuyen and you will not have them. Purchase one for 3,000 Nuyen and I may or may not throw them in for you, depending upon who manufactures the suit. They are not free. There is no RULE that you are quoting. You are quoting ONLY FLUFF.

As for sufficierntly more advanced for BASIC ruthenium, your definition will still net you zero mechanical gain whatsoever. If you want an effect, you have to pay for it.

Let me highlight something you quoted for you...



Note the term Options. See, it is not a STANDARD Feature of Clothing, it is an OPTIONAL One. My car comes with hundreds of Options. However, I do not get them unless I pay for them. You may have these OPTIONS in your clothing all you want. YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. The reason that you do not see a specific price in the main book is because they subsumed it into a single line item price (And left it to the GM to adjudicate, until a latrer book was introduced). Clothing costs from 20 Nueyn to 100,000 Nuyen. Now, you do the math. You want the "Options" of rutheniuum that you are talking about, you have to pay for it. It will not come stock in a suit that only costs 300 Nuyen, because the technology cost that by itself.

You want to take it further, you add more options (Cameras, processors, and Color matching softweare) and you can now have a Chameleon Suit.

Fortunately for us, we have another book that now provides all of the particulars of exactly how much ruthenium costs. So now, we can add it to anything we want. It does not change the fact that the FLUFF you are talking about PROVIDES ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT MECHANICALLY. You get NO modifier for changing the pattern on your clothing for hiding, because there is No modifier for that unless you are using very specific configurations of clothing (Camouflage or Chameleon Suit, or specific articles of clothing that have specifically been modded to provide such benefits). You can argue that it is free with every article of clothing you buy. But you are wrong, and I call Shennanigans on that. And if you really look deep down inside of yourself, you will have to agree. You do not get something for nothing in Shadowrun.

Nice Try, but you still fail.

Oh and official Price Check in Main Book. As Indicated above:



I am sure you could have found that if you had really thought to look. Glad to be of service to you.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 07:03 PM

It also says nothing about camouflage effects of any kind. If you can make a Camo Suit change to a new camo setting (-2), then you can make any clothing do so. There's no mention of that anywhere, so it makes much more sense to assume neither is possible. Or, again, that you can color-change to your heart's content for zero mechanic effect.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 17 2011, 07:56 PM

All clothing can color shift.

None of it nets you the stealth bonus unless it specifically says it does.

Designer business suit: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? No.

Camouflage Suit: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? Yes, if the pattern is matched to the environment.

Chameleon Suit:: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? Yes, better than the Camouflage Suit.



-k

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Nov 17 2011, 08:10 PM

Query: Why doesn't the business suit do it, if it can colour shift and you shift it to an appropriate colour pattern?

***

The argument being made to suggest that Camo can be reprogrammed applies equally to all armour. So either it can't be reprogrammed (more likely) or ALL clothing can be, makign camo redundant in the first place.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 08:54 PM

But, Karma, there's no rules connection between general color shifting and Camo Suit's pattern bonus. It requires a weird position that there's something very special about Camo that no other clothing (jumpsuits, anything) can equally do.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 17 2011, 09:12 PM

Logically it should, but by the rules it doesn't because the bonus is coming from the Camouflage Suit, not the actual pattern. Dumb as that is. Good luck trying to reason that to some of the people around here, though.

This is different from Chameleon Suits and Ruthenium Polymers, because the rules for Ruthenium Polymers grants that benefit to any armor/clothing it's applied to.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 17 2011, 09:26 PM

You shouldn't have to defend anything with 'dumb as that is', especially when it's a player munchkin-ing an extra power out of existing gear. In the frequent cases where the rules are a mess, go with the non-dumb choice.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 17 2011, 09:28 PM

Indeed.....

Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 17 2011, 09:58 PM

Why do I feel like I threw gasoline & a lit flare into a room filled with butane?

After reading all the posts, seems like Chameleon Coating or Ruthenium Coating your outfit/gear is better & more cost effective then owning camouflaged clothing & gear. Someone did bring up a good point that if the gear gets damaged, will the Chameleon effect (an energy based, technological effect) or Ruthenium still work/function? There's no rules that saw otherwise.

Seems there are some technological gaps (like most sci-fi themed games/shows) where 1 aspect has jumped beyond other fields & the implications haven't been thoroughly thought through. (Case in point, Star Wars. Laser guns, FTL travel, Force Fields... but Jedi still used hend-held walkie talkies to talk to droids to handle hacking/electronic warfare for them, & no one wears anti-grav boots or use powered armor/clothing to scale walls or jump over pits.).

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Nov 17 2011, 11:04 PM

I really don't understand the confusion here, when I read SR4A (pg 326), it specifically says:

With how this future sci fi clothing is described prior to that:



...are you seriously taking that as the computer only designed the print on the cloth and you have to take it off, turn it inside out and its still makes sense as armored? What makes it any different than something like a less effective Full Body Armor then?

I choose to think of it as a futuristic ghilli suit that is less flexible to enviromental change than the Chameleon, which I think of as essentially a Predator cloaking device or the cloak ability of the armor in the PC game Crysis whose battery doesn't run out as fast.

Why choose one over the other? To me, its because you really, really want that extra stealth dice. In which case you are probably springing for other perks as well to defeat other methods of perception.

Plus, I would think you could program the Camo to have socially acceptable patterns as well. Show up looking like one thing, leave looking a different pattern.

Posted by: Mercer Nov 17 2011, 11:46 PM

It seems like there would be some effect on the clothing's color shifting ability from damage. Particularly if the color-changing ability is a civilian mod, it may not react to well to bullets.

Given the abilities of programmable, color-changing fabric in the write-up, it seems like there should be a step between the camo suit and the chameleon. Either an optional armor quality or a separate item that costs a little more than a standard camo suit and gives you a little variety. Personally, 1200 is a little too expensive for a piece of armor that you would need to repurchase for every different terrain you might encounter anyway, particularly when you add in all the individual mods each piece would need. I'd rather have a base set of armor (form-fit, vest and so on), and then wear terrain appropriate camouflage (whether it be a ghillie suit or tuxedo) over it.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 18 2011, 04:31 AM

Funny, I always read the "All have reversible day/night patterns" as meaning the current-day version of "reversible" clothing - you take your jacket or pants or whatever and turn it inside-out, and there's a different pattern on that side.




-k

Posted by: Fabe Nov 18 2011, 04:34 AM

I agree with Tymeaus when he says that all the fancy stuff is optional and not included with every piece of clothing but I do disagree that adding electrochromic threads,flexible screens and woven fiber optics will drive the price into the thousands, I mean just look at what you can buy at http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/interactive/ today in the real world, we can expect better by 2072. I'm also going to have to agree with Ol' Scratch, Ruthenium Polymers are different then the other stuff that you can add to clothing.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 18 2011, 04:41 AM

You're agreeing with TJ, then: his point (AFAIK) was that the 'advanced' stuff (-4) is due to the cameras/processor package… and the cost.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Nov 18 2011, 12:45 PM

Ok, seriously the non-dumb choice is usually the most flexible one.

However, we have a clear case of missing rules with just a suggestion in the fluff, so it's really not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of missing content - i.e. rules for lesser ruthenium. So basically you just need to create a price point for that. You could go with the price of that second skin suit.

That and, I have to admit, the non-dumb choice would be to simply give everyone who can download a camo pattern and apply it to a given piece of clothing the same bonus as the camo suit. I've never given these special "computer generated" patterns any special credit - they are just patterns. And in any case, anything electronic can be copied, somehow. And clearly the game balance won't suddenly die just becomes someone can turn his business suit into urban camo in a jiffy. He will still need something for his head .

Posted by: 3278 Nov 18 2011, 01:25 PM

It seems unreasonable to put this much effort into arguing over what the rules say; clearly, the rules are uneven and don't all fit together well. So why not focus on what the rules should be, on what rules might be most desirable, and why?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 18 2011, 02:54 PM

That's what I was saying, Brainpiercing: if you say all clothing is 'smart', you have to say that it's all like Camo Suit. You can't use this fluff to upgrade *just* Camo Suit.

Posted by: Mercer Nov 19 2011, 02:58 AM

There's also the down side to color-changing camo-- that once it gets hacked you're running around in a glowing, neon-pink onesie for the rest of the combat.

It would seem like the benefit to color-changing fabrics might be something as simple as it's never inappropriate. It may not be capable of giving you a benefit for camo, but it never gives you the penalty either.

One thing that has never made sense to me is that if the camo suit gives you a penalty if your in the wrong terrain, then almost all clothing should give you a penalty almost all the time. In my mind (and perhaps only there, but accompany me on this flight of fancy), you're better off with a suit of jungle cammies in a dark alley than you are in a white t-shirt. If a GM gave me the "inappropriate camo" penalty for a white t-shirt I'd understand, but it'd still technically be a house rule.

Posted by: Falconer Nov 19 2011, 03:27 AM

I'm with TJ as well. I've done this in the past... paid extra to add ruthenium to a camo suit. (not the full fledged chameleon system). It makes sense, I don't believe it's bulit-in for free... otherwise there would be no cause for the camo to be reversible.

Paying an extra 1000 for the Ruthenium isn't all that expensive in the large scheme of things considering the benefits it can provide.

What makes the chameleon system special is the cameras and sensors... which change your coloring to draw what's behind you on your front so that people can 'see' through you. Without all that advanced stuff, there's no reason you should be able to simply swap out camo themes with a little bit of work and an edit program. (or change to a work jumpsuit with Joe's Plumbing monogrammed on the back... nothing like a good disguise).

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 19 2011, 03:50 AM

House rules are fine. But that's exactly what it is; a house rule.

By the rules, all clothing is assumed to have these properties. It's not instant color/pattern-shifting, but it can be reprogrammed. And just like how all cyberware is assumed to be wireless by default, you can opt to not have this property in your clothing if you feel its inappropriate (such as with super cheap clothing like Flats) or you just don't want your clothes getting hacked. But by default, every single outfit in the game has it unless stated otherwise, either directly or implied. No extra cost required, just like there's no extra cost for your implants being wireless.

Whether you can apply a camouflage pattern to normal clothing in order to duplicate the benefits of a Camouflage Suit is a completely different debate and has no bearing on that basic rule. By a strict adherence to the rules, however, it's not possible because the bonus is coming from the Camouflage Suit itself. To fix this, "camouflage" should simply be an armor modification option with the Camouflage Suit being an example of armor that comes with it. (To be honest, I think it should just be done away with completely because in my experience, it's only helpful from a long range. If someone's standing next to you, they're not at all hard to see. At all.)

On the other hand, being able to alter the Camouflage Suit's pattern so that it can be used in different environments is, at best, iffy but by default it should be assumed to be acceptable due to the description of what and how both the Camouflage Suit and the color/pattern-shifting technology is described. The bonus is still coming from the Camouflage Suit. You're simply using the technology to alter the environment to which it is compatible, which is completely in line with its described capabilities.

Posted by: 3278 Nov 19 2011, 04:12 AM

That's what each side always thinks of the other. That's the whole point of the conversation, is to figure out, or come to an agreement on, which position is the rules-as-written and which the house rule. Saying, "Your position is a house rule" begs the question, and is also kind of dickish. [And, of course, unutterably pointless, as I mentioned before: it doesn't matter what rule is written in the book, only what rule will best work at the table. But that's a conversation I don't think we're going to have.]

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 19 2011, 04:16 AM

Considering that it's written plainly in black-and-white, and the only counterargument is "I don't like it, so I'm changing it something else" or "I'm making up a price of 1,000 nuyen" makes it -- by definition -- a house rule. Call me dickish all you like, it's not going to change that fact.

Believe it or not, it's possible to be wrong about something.


That's been discussed, too. And, again, it's an argument about Camouflage Suits and why that's the only way to get those benefits. That's what's broken and needs to be addressed. Why can't just buy another set of clothing with a camouflage pattern already printed on it? No shifting needed. It's camouflaged, too. Why doesn't it get the bonus?

Or are we not even allowed to have ordinary, low-tech clothing with complex patterns and colors on it, too?

Posted by: 3278 Nov 19 2011, 04:45 AM

Yep. So's the thing they're saying. The rules are broken. Get over it. And I'm not just talking to you: you just happened to be the last person to have posted. Personally, I think you're absolutely correct in your interpretation, I just don't think it matters.


Oh, I believe it. I don't have any experience with it personally, mind you.


Exactly right. The rule that's there is stupid and contradictory, so write a new rule. Never mind what the old one was: just put that away. What's the new one?

It seems to me like there should be four classes of clothing:

1 Dumb clothing, not camouflaged
2 Dumb clothing, camouflaged
3 Ruthenium-woven clothing, which can change colors and patterns
4 Advanced ruthenium clothing, for that [completely, stupidly, shockingly impossible] stealth effect

Are there any types I'm missing?

Obviously 1 would come in multiple styles and colors: it's regular clothing, by our standards. And obviously 2 would have multiple sub-types [jungle, arctic, baroque], and could be assumed to be day/night reversible unless otherwise specified. A brief discussion would be warranted with 3, explaining some various means of control [wireless, datajack, skinlink, buttons], and what kind of resolution you could expect. And 4 requires all sorts of explanations.

Mechanically, you need a bonus for blending in [available for 1, 2, 3 and 4], with variables for efficacy. You need a penalty for not blending in [available for 1 and 2; not 3 or 4, unless it's broken or something], with variables for stand-out-ish-ness.

What else?

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 19 2011, 05:36 AM

No, a few are saying that. The ones I've been replying to, by and large, have been saying that's not the case.


I mentioned two in my next to last post in the thread, as well as a few others. I personally don't see the point in camouflage clothing in Shadowrun. If there were rules for wartime skirmishes and the like, sure, it plays a part when dealing with long ranges or large groups of people wearing the same camouflaged uniforms. But in close combat? What exactly is it supposed to do and how is it helping you sneak past a guard?

Ruthenium, sure. It's a weak form of technological invisibility. But camouflage, whether a military uniform or a business suit, just isn't going to do squat for you when it comes to Infiltration and the like. Wearing a suit or uniform appropriate to what you're doing -- a suit or janitorial uniform when sneaking into an office building, fatigues when trying to blend in at a military base, hunting gear when out in the wilderness -- is going to be far more beneficial. Wearing fatigues painted blue and gray "urban camouflage" while stomping around inside Horizon's plush office building is going to do jack squat.

Posted by: Midas Nov 19 2011, 05:38 AM

I think Bodak quoted a price for thread that changes colour, it's called Second Skin, and it ain't cheap. Glad that you aren't arguing that commlinks and other electronic devices should come for free as well.

Basically it comes down to this: if you want functionality, you gotta pay for it. If you want a fluffy technicolour dreamcoat that gives you no camouflage bonus but changes colour at your whim, the GM might throw it into your lifestyle costs if you have a sufficiently high lifestyle in his/her judgement; if not, he can quote you a price on it.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 19 2011, 05:55 AM

Case in point.

Second Skin isn't a "thread that changes color." It's an outfit, and one specifically described as being made out of very specific materials and not the various materials mentioned in the general rule. The rule that you're erroneously referencing specifically states that Second Skin requires Ruthenium Polymers to gain the effect. Ruthenium Polymers is a specific rule above and beyond the general rule. It's not a synonym.

Posted by: Udoshi Nov 19 2011, 07:19 AM

For the sake of this ongoing arguement, I'm going to point you all towards Attitude 160: Color Changing Clothing.

It is PRECISELY this, effectively being half-strength ruthenium polymer for 175 nuyen. You do have to pay for what you want. But its nowhere near as expensive as a full polymer+sensor suite coating like the second skin or a dermal sheath option has.

They do, however, stack.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 19 2011, 02:05 PM

Oh, god. There is no way they stack. I don't care if 'Attitude' specifically says they do.

Posted by: Fabe Nov 19 2011, 05:03 PM

Good points but I think camo would still be useful in some situations like maybe staking out or sneaking up on a corp compound from some near by woods or some thing. In that case the right camouflage could help hide a 'Runner from any patrols or sentries that might be on the look out.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 19 2011, 06:14 PM

If I was houseruling, I'd just eliminate the specific Camouflage and Chameleon Suits, give any clothing with appropriate static coloration/patterning to get the +2 bonus, and the +4 to any Ruthenium Polymer type adaptive cloaking capable suits.



-k

Posted by: 3278 Nov 19 2011, 11:57 PM

Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Could you tell me what the post number is?


It seems like there are a couple of options: fix the broken rules, or just bitch that the rules are broken. You've been complaining that the rule is broken, so I proposed fixing the rule, and your response to that is that we don't need the rules at all. Are you allergic to constructive solutions? It's so dumpshock: you can find 100 people to bitch the weapons rules are broken, but only 2 people who will design a new weapon.


Shadowrun visibility exists beyond "close combat" ranges. Perhaps ranges are different in the games in which you play, but I often encounter situations where the opposition is more than a few - or a few dozen - meters away. And camouflage is helpful for concealment sometimes even at relatively close ranges, particularly in conditions of weak lighting. Camouflage clothing in Shadowrun is a logical inclusion, useful and necessary.


The advanced ruthenium system, though, can't possibly work; it's a logical impossibility. If any inclusion is absurd, it's that of the "tape a picture of what's behind me to my face" ruthenium invisibility cloak. I let people use it, because they like it, and it's in the rules, but clearly it's completely impossible.


It's a question of what's appropriate to the situation. If the only situations you're ever in take place inside Horizon's plush office building, then by all means urban camouflage will be a positive detriment. But if you're hiding in a ditch while an automated convoy you're about to hijack goes by, it's a necessity. If you're traversing the ice field that surrounds the mining camp where you're going to taint the orichalcum they've discovered, it's a necessity. If you're sneaking through the jungle to overtake the wild basilisk whose gall bladder you just have to have, it's a necessity. Camouflage exists in Shadowrun for the same reasons it exists in the real world, and the world of Shadowrun is as broad as the real world, so those same reasons apply to it. Not every run - at some tables, at least - takes place in an office building, or even in a city. Not every encounter is at close range.

Shadowrun should include camouflage, and it should have working rules to reflect its use. I've proposed a general outline of some: would you like to help develop them into a working replacement for Shadowrun's broken camouflage rules? If you'd just like to fight about shit and complain, that's cool; I was just thinking it'd be cool if one of these conversations ended in something productive.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 20 2011, 12:15 AM

Ruthenium is much weaker than it used to be (SR3), I think to reflect that it's apparently so objectionably impossible. Perception is basically the best pool, so +4 against that is minor, and I'd say reasonable for background-accurate clothing at all times. 'Invisibility' would be a vastly larger bonus (/enemy penalty).

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 12:29 AM

I agree with that, and with the +2 KarmaInferno mentioned for anything color-appropriate. I'm not sure if I feel that's enough in either case, but I'd want to actually playtest it before I could make that guess; while I can pretty easily ballpark the effect of things in SR3, I'm really not there yet with SR4. In the meantime, +2 / +4 make sense to me. The only question then is the cost of the various things that are available, and they're all pretty fine in the book as written, right?

Posted by: Fabe Nov 20 2011, 12:29 AM

Nope, its possible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD83dqSfC0Y&feature=related

http://www.giantginkgo.com/archives/000113.php

http://www.howstuffworks.com/invisibility-cloak.htm

it's not to the point cloaking suits yet but the possibility is there.

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 12:38 AM

Both these solutions illustrate the problem: the observer's position must be fixed in order for this "projection of what's behind" method [optical camouflage] to work, because of parallax. These systems are perfect illustrations of why advanced ruthenium invisibility cloaks are impossible.


There are multiple solutions here: the carbon nanotube and metamaterials solutions don't work at all like ruthenium, and the other is just another example of optical camouflage, which then falls afoul of the problems mentioned above. In short, if those videos moved the camera, the illusion would break down entirely: most of the videos mention this in the explanatory text.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 20 2011, 12:47 AM

*shrug* We'd have to do actual tests of visual spot times or something to see how realistic, but I'm happy giving it the (minor) +4 bonus. Presumably, the magic of ruthenium allows multiple viewpoints.

Posted by: Fabe Nov 20 2011, 12:51 AM

That's what I'm thinking ,the suit uses cameras the size of http://www.gizmag.com/medigus-worlds-smallest-video-camera/18559/e or maybe smaller placed all over the suit and the ruthenium projects the images.

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 01:23 AM

I think part of the difficulty I have with 2 and 4 is that my expectations for how high Perception should be aren't realistic. When you think about it, 4 dice is the difference between a Veteran and someone who is Untrained. That's a pretty big deal.

A really realistic camouflage system would also need to take into account varying efficacy at varying distances, but that level of accuracy is better left, in my experience, to GM fiat at the moment. Shadowrun ain't no wargame.


The size of the cameras isn't the issue. Let me see if I can explain the problem. [I've tried before, and I sucked, so forgive me in advance if I do that again.]

• Whip out your smartphone.*
• Open your camera app.
• Close one eye.
• Fiddle with the zoom, the distance between your eye and the camera, etc., until you can line up what's on the screen with real life, like "seeing through" the phone, like the phone is a window.
• Awesome. Now, move your head.

See how it doesn't work anymore? It's like that https://www.google.com/search?q=3d+street+art: it only works if you're standing in exactly the right place. Also:

• Close one eye again.
• Get everything lined up.
• Awesome, now, open the other eye.

Doesn't work, again, because of parallax. This time, because it's about stereoscopic vision, the effect is much more pronounced at close range, but it doesn't matter: just the fact that it can only work in one position - on a direct line down the barrel of the camera - makes optical camouflage effectively useless.

*A digital camera will also work. Or your imagination. A sketch is fine, too.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Nov 20 2011, 01:42 AM

I still think it'd be partially effective, just as static camouflage doesn't make you *invisible*. I'm also okay assuming some kind of magic hologram (=multiple viewpoints) effect; 'ruthenium' is literally handwavium, always has been.

As for the 'actual DP vs. what the book calls average' argument… I don't feel like arguing it yet again. The fact is, people get Perception pools well above 10 easily; it's a reality we have to deal with.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Nov 20 2011, 01:46 AM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=36265&view=findpost&p=1123261


Actually, I've mostly been arguing that the color/pattern-shifting actually is a base rule in the game. Or was until Attitude, apparently. For whatever asinine reason, people -- a large number of people -- have been saying its not.

And yes, one of my suggestions was to get rid of the camouflage bonuses altogether. They're so minor as to be negligible in most situations you find yourself in during the game. For those outlier situations where it might come in handy, they can have a rule where a bonus is gained. Sort like the special rules for being in space or in the desert. It's a niche benefit. Camouflage fatigues don't do shit for you when sneaking past a guard lighting conditions be damned, yet by the rules they give you a hefty bonus no matter the situation. Well, aside from having the wrong environmental pattern. Which, mysteriously, doesn't apply if you're wearing a neon orange jumpsuit with flashing lights.


No more than you're allergic to reading comprehension.


Yes, because I http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=36032&view=findpost&p=1113605, http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=36072&view=findpost&p=1114901 offer up http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=36072&view=findpost&p=1114901 http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=36177&view=findpost&p=1119602 or http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=36214&view=findpost&p=1121297. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=31898&view=findpost&p=953281. Not in a million, billion years would I do such a thing.


Fine, you don't like my suggestion. So fucking what? How does that not make it a suggested fix?

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 02:00 AM

You're absolutely right. You're clearly very constructive. Sorry to have troubled you.

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 02:14 AM

If you're going to send PMs, it's polite to allow yourself to receive them, as well. So I'll just put this here, instead:

No, I just don't think the conversation is worth having. It'd be a waste of my time. You're in this to butt heads with dudes, from what I can tell, and that's totally cool, but I'm not really interested. I blew you off, and if that was rude, I apologize, but, seriously, where's that conversation going to go that's not just a mirror of practically every thread here? Not worth it to me.

Can we be done with this now?

Posted by: Fabe Nov 20 2011, 02:44 AM

I know what your saying ,and I agree with it but I see the suit projecting every thing within 360 degrees of it at the proper perspectives onto it's surface and thus avoiding the parallax problems. The way I see it working is that each micro camera projects what it sees to the other side of the suit depending on how the wearer is positioned with all of the cameras and the controlling software working together to display every thing correctly. I'm not really that great explaining in writing/type so I hope you I've made things clear enough for you to understand my view point. Any ways if you think about with all the other stuff in Shadowrun that's totally BS debating something like this is kinda silly.

Posted by: Grinder Nov 20 2011, 07:06 AM

You know the "Ignore User" feature, don't you?

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 01:23 PM

Seriously, Scratch, please stop PMing me. All you're really doing is confirming my perception of you. I'm here to talk about Shadowrun, not to, whatever, "dish out harassment." C'mon, man, I've asked politely a couple times now. Can we just move on?

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 01:26 PM

You know what, I don't? I haven't used the new board software that much [or clearly, that well!]. What do you recommend?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Nov 20 2011, 02:17 PM

What I'm seeing is just a technical problem to be solved. Ruthenium is just a stupid name, it has nothing to do with what Ruthenium really does (it makes possibly coloured complexes, what they were looking for was rare earths, which are really used to create colours in display technology).
So, let's stick with the stupid name, and apply creativity to fixing the magic-tech:

You want a fix for parallaxing? Use 3-dimensional liquid crystals that actually look different from different angles. At present, you can only do this from a fixed viewpoint, but it all gets so simple once you figure out the future magic-tech. And bam, you're back in SR3-world where RuPo was actually situationally better than invisibility.

And that's not even looking at negative refractive index materials...

Now we do arrive at a point where simply colouring clothing just won't cut it - you need a defined surface structure, hence, it's a complicated mod.

Now the really important question is how to get around the problem of different vision modes without increasing complexity even more: In SR3 there was a funny suit mod that served as thermal insulation and worked against IR vision. It was ridiculously expensive and also crap. However, I'd still want my chameleon suit to do the same... Is there still something like that?

Posted by: 3278 Nov 20 2011, 02:52 PM

I don't see any reason this would be impossible, or at least by the standard as we apply it to Shadowrun. If you take away the ruthenium part of it, and provide an entirely different type of solution, then there's no reason it can't work, whether through metamaterials or nanotubes or 3d liquid crystals. Most of these solutions would be much more practical on a surface whose relative shape the computer can know, so things that don't change shape [like cars and buildings] or things that change shape in a manner that's easily predictable [like armor suits] would be relatively simple, while complex shapes that change quickly [like flexible clothing] would be much more difficult [though not conceptually impossible]. Shadowrun made this same shift once before, technologically, from ruthenium polymers only working on hard materials to being able to use it on cloaks and whatnot.


Yep! Thermal Damping, p327, SR4a.

Posted by: Grinder Nov 20 2011, 09:15 PM

Dude, if someone annoys you, go to his profile and set him on ignore (to be found under "Options").

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Nov 21 2011, 10:25 AM

There is a bit of a problem with normal clothing, I admit. It shouldn't be simple to do. However, once we're at the level of individually adjustable 3d-pixels, then we can also have them know their own orientation and adjust accordingly. Now get this science out of my sci-fi .

Thanks for the heads-up on the damping. I somehow completely missed it so far, don't ask me how...

Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 23 2011, 04:39 AM

http://games.yahoo.com/photos/camouflage-paintings-1321923033-slideshow/camouflage-paint-bookshelf-photo-1321569970.html

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 23 2011, 03:11 PM

Awesome Indeed...

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 23 2011, 03:44 PM

Proposed house rule:

Camouflage clothing is designed to make you less visible to others, by breaking up your silhouette and matching your surrounding environment. Camouflage must cover your entire body to be effective - if you have significant portions of your body or gear not camouflaged, any benefits from the camouflage are halved.

Static camouflage: Your clothing has set coloring or patterns designed to blend in to a specific background environment. You impose a -2 dice pool penalty to perception tests made against you in that environment. In other environments where the coloring or patterns clash and contrast with your surroundings, you instead grant a +2 dice pool bonus to perception tests made against you.

Adaptive camouflage: Your clothing actively alters it's coloration and patterns to match your surrounding environment. You impose a -4 dice pool penalty to perception tests made against you. Many clothes have the ability to alter their color and patterns, but they are not considered "adaptive" unless they have the sensors and processing ability to automatically constantly shift to actively match their environment.

All armor would fall under this set of rules. I probably wouldn't bother removing the chameleon suit or camouflage suit from the game, but since you can get the same effects on many other suits of clothing they aren't likely to be chosen much.

I am considering having camouflage also impose a -2 penalty on called shots, as it makes distinguishing specific body parts more difficult even if you do see the target.. What do ya'll think?


-k

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Nov 23 2011, 04:00 PM

Workable.
I don't really see the need, but it looks good to me.

Posted by: Midas Nov 24 2011, 04:47 AM

Fair enough, I stand corrected that Second Skin uses ruthenium polymers.

As to the prevalence of this colour changing thread in the SR 2071 multiverse, making it ubiquitous doesn't jive with my dystopian vision of the setting. A bit like the heat colour changing t-shirts that came out in the 80's, I would see it as a fringe fashion accessory for the chic and the serious clubbers, and being a fashion accessory it would be a lot more expensive than normal clothing, but YMMV.

However, I will reiterate my position that if you want crunch (i.e. reducing the opponent's perception dice), you gotta pay for it. As per RAW, this can be achieved using an appropriate Camouflage Suit or a Chameleon Suit. Nowhere in the BBB does it state that the colour-changing thread you pulled outta the fluff gives a penalty to your opponents perception dice. You wanna house rule that 0 new yen clothing can act as a Camouflage Suit and be modded to change according to the environment you are in go ahead, but it wouldn't fly at my table.

Posted by: Midas Nov 24 2011, 05:00 AM

I don't have Attitude, so I will take your word for it. Seems a little cheap given the price of full ruthenium stuff, and because it seems crazy cheap for the bonus it provides I would house rule it out of existance at my table, but YMMV.

I would definitely agree with Yerameyahu about it NOT stacking with other camo or ruthenium stuff though, that seems completely illogical and cheesiculous munkinery to me ("I'm wearing CCC under my Chameleon Suit, that's -6 to perception for the guard!"), notwithstanding the dicepool creep the devs often love to put in their books to increase sales ...

Posted by: 3278 Mar 4 2012, 03:05 AM

And http://youtu.be/ZIGzpi9lCck, this one more car-related!

Posted by: HentaiZonga Mar 4 2012, 05:26 AM

Fanwank theory alert:

Maybe that's what's so special about Ruthenium Polymer - the images that can be projected from it are polarized and directional, so you can actually generate an image that changes based on the viewing angle. This would require multiple cameras in each direction (ideally one per emitter), but I believe that's explicitly described as part of what a 'sneak suit' does.

Putting it another way:

Standard 'color-changing' technology, like the LED-lined car, can only change the reflective or emissive color of a particular 2D segment (called a 'picture element, or 'pixel') of the covered object's surface area. It can't create per-pixel light that also changes based on the viewing angle. Ruthenium Polymer, when combined with a mesh of low-view-angle optical sensors, can do that - which solves the parallax problem, since it effectively reproduces batches of individual photons (complete with direction) as if they had passed through the covered object's volume without ever being absorbed.

Posted by: 3278 Mar 4 2012, 01:57 PM

Yeah, that's the running theory upthread, as well, and it's at least a better solution than a flat surface that projects scattered light, although even a system like that can't work on a flexing surface, and would need a viewing angle of something like 180 degrees to even work on a surface whose exact size and shape were known. But: I still think it's a better explanation than the existing one, and encourage people to adopt it!

Posted by: Irion Mar 4 2012, 02:20 PM

Actually I do not get your problem with the description as it stands. It makes you harder to spot, it does nor make you "predatorlike".
It does not call for a perception test, if none would be needed otherwise.
So if you walk by somebody, he will see you and he would not need to roll anything, because he would not need to roll to see a normal human walking by.

But if you are lurking 200m away from a person through a dense forest it makes you much harder to spot. (Which not really a wrong)

Posted by: 3278 Mar 4 2012, 02:58 PM

You can certainly reasonably run Chameleon Suits [for example] in your game as "adaptive camouflage," as well, although then it's best to just disregard the bit about "proper perspective," because replicating the image from behind you badly is going to be worse than simply sampling the surrounding area and then picking a good camouflage pattern using that palette and those shapes; this is much closer to how actual chameleons [and cephalopods] work, and is a perfectly good way to run "ruthenium suits" in Shadowrun.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 4 2012, 04:04 PM

The recent movie Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol has a scene where they put up a display screen covering up a hallway, showing a 3D-recreated image of the hidden hallway as if it were empty. There's a camera system that tracks the eyes of the guard at the end of the hallway that they're trying to fool, so the image can be adjusted for parallax as the guard moves around.

The problem occurs when more guards appear. The system can only show one parallax viewpoint at a time, so the image looks weird to everyone else. As the system starts tracking multiple sets of eyes, it attempts to compensate by switching the parallax to each set of eyes, which makes it worse because now it looks like the hallway is bending back and forth. The guards of course approach the screen to investigate this weirdness.

The movie was surprisingly pretty good, as an aside. Was expecting the standard sequel degeneration, got a lot better.



-k

Posted by: Kolinho Mar 5 2012, 12:18 AM

Amid all the bitterness and pedanticism I found these posts, all of which make valid points.

I'm running a new campaign from next week and bearing in mind I like an easy life i'll be going with the following:

It takes skill and effort to create a camouflage pattern, so if you want changeable patterns, a program to run them off your commlink must be bought from someone who has gone to the trouble of drawing one - I'll go with 200Y per point of rating and one pattern per point, availability equal to the rating and freely available. Changing between patterns requires a simple action. Chameleon and Ruthenium exist RAW. Perhaps some more expensive armours may come with additional camo software for a wee bit extra nuyen.

If you put such on non-armoured clothing, a hit from a weapon or a hard fall will disable the pattern to its default. With armoured clothing, it is secure. As a changeable pattern will require some kind of link to your comm, either will be hackable, with a rating equal to as purchased and as such will be spoofable (thanks Mercer).

I'll also get rid of the +2 mod for inappropriate camo as it makes no sense other than as a balancing act.

edit: edited, thanks Yerameyahu!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 5 2012, 12:32 AM

'Pedantry' is the vastly more common term.

So, what's with, "Changing between patterns requires a complex action and a hit on a Computer + Software check"? To me, that doesn't make sense; much more complicated computer tasks are faster and easier than that.

Posted by: Kolinho Mar 5 2012, 12:51 AM

Aye, could probably do without that. That was just brain vomit really, I really ought to think before hitting 'reply'. Guess I just wanted to put something out there to balance it a bit.

Loving the irony of pulling me up about my misuse of pedanticism

Posted by: A Feast For Ravens Sep 9 2013, 03:33 AM

Unless I missed something, because frankly I lost patience with the debate about page 3, no-one has actually quoted this; "Camouflage Suit: A full body suit with computer-designed environmental-pattern facsimiles. All have reversible day/night patterns. When worn in an appropriate environment, the suit inflicts a –2 Perception Test dice pool modifier to spot the wearer (if worn in an inappropriate environment, it incurs a +2 bonus instead). Also armored for additional protection." As the early debate centered around the versatility, or lack of, of this Armour I believe, and I could be wrong, that the phase to note is this "A full body suit with computer-designed environmental-pattern facsimiles." In particular the plural "facsimiles" meaning more than one "environmental-pattern". Now, if, for some reason you're caught out in the wrong pattern i.e. ran from "Woods" jumped over boundary fence and dashed into "Concrete Science Facility 3" you get a penalty, if you have the time to switch patterns that's another story. Only problem I see is they haven't included a change-over time for going between patterns.

Also my two cents on the original topic Camo is great for beginners Chameleon for lower Body characters later but nothing bets strapping "Ruthenium Polymer Coating: This modification can only be added to armor or clothing that covers the wearer’s whole body, like full body armors or suits. The ruthenium polymers are controlled by a sensor suite incorporated into the armor or clothing that scans the surroundings and replicates the images at the proper perspectives, providing the wearer with chameleon-like abilities and applying a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to see the wearer." Arsenal pg50 to a set of high end Milspec.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Sep 9 2013, 07:19 PM

What you missed was "Nov 16 2011"

Posted by: Daier Mune Sep 9 2013, 07:45 PM

is there a difference in SR5 between camo and chameleon? is one hackable while the other isnt?

Posted by: Novocrane Sep 9 2013, 07:50 PM

A lot of this conversation became obsolete when they released Attitude for 4e. It had colour changing as a clothing mod, with a specific cost.

5e, unless I'm mistaken, does not yet have camo clothing. It does have a colour changing mod - which isn't good enough for camo, oddly. (maybe it glows?)

Posted by: A Feast For Ravens Sep 10 2013, 04:21 AM

Two questions slightly on topic can one use bolt on upgrades like Gel Packs over Ruthenium Polymer without mucking up their bonuses? Also Day/Night reversibility is cool but what does that do for twilight runs when you don't have either?

Posted by: Novocrane Sep 10 2013, 05:18 AM

Why wouldn't you put the gel packs under the armour layer? I would have thought that makes more sense for something you want to absorb impacts, but not rupture.


Ask your GM. Either both are good, neither are good, or both are less effective. (or one is specifically less effective while the other works fine, but ...)

Posted by: Voran Sep 10 2013, 08:33 AM

TWO THOUSAND ELEVENTEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!!