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Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 19 2011, 06:20 AM

Most LMG's & MMG's do equal damage to that of an assault rifle. MMG's & HMG's do get better AP bonuses. LMG's, MMG's, & HMG's are usually coupled together with a recoil compensation system of a harness, gas vent, etc... or mounted.

If a runner wanted that much firepower of throwing a lot of rounds down rage at a target, would it be better to have a machine gun or a modified assault rifle with the 100 round drum & high velocity modification?

Seems like the modded assault rifle would be a more practical choice as it'll be easier to carry, deploy, & use as opposed to the large, cumbersome machine gun. SAW's fill this purpose in today's modern warfare.

Are there Shadowrun versions of SAW's or are those just the modified assault rifles I mentioned earlier?

Posted by: Udoshi Nov 19 2011, 07:00 AM

I would say that assault rifles, on a whole, tend to be a better choice. There's a few reasons why.
Concealability. Assault rifles are bad, machine guns are worse.
Skill flexibility. Machine guns use heavy weapons, assault rifles use automatics.
Default options. Assault rifles just tend to have better built in options. (ares alpha being the foremost example)
Recoil. Heavy weapons suffer double uncompensated recoil. (though it may just be medium machine gun and up). If its not fully compensated, then you suffer more.

There are two things in the favor of machine guns.
Ammunition: machine guns of every flavor have the option of belt-feeds, potentially letting them shoot up to 250 rounds before running dry. This is mostly for vehicles, though. (the stoner-ares Mp-lmg is an exception, being able to take a clip of 50 or a belt)
Range. Its not MUCH of a benefit, but medium and heavy machine guns have a max range just 300 meters short of the sniper rifle category, which is still a good 500 more than sporting rifles.(which battle rifles use)
And damage. 6p ap-1 is the default damage for assault rifles. And its not bad at all.
LMG's are pretty much the same. 6p ap-1. MMG's have one more AP than that. HMG's are where its at. 7p ap-3 by default, before ammunition modifiers. With ex-ex, thats 8p ap-4, which is nearly assault cannon damage, except fully automatic. 7p ap-7 with APDS is nothing to scoff at either.

The heavy weapons skill does grant you access to assault cannons, but I have mixed feelings about those. The main downside is that they can't use normal ammunition types. The regular 'assault cannon' ammunition is 'by cannon', and the AV assault cannon rounds introduced in arsenal are just AP-4(6 vs vehicles). They just don't get better than their statline.

If you're interested in big guns, either go all the way or don't bother. If you can handle the recoil (whether its a combination of gasvents, strength, cyberlimb gyros, or a harness) then they're basically your best bet in terms of damage code, range, and ammunition. The biggest obstacle is taht they just aren't available during character creation, so you have to work towards it.
If you have the heavy weapons skill because you're running an underbarrel grenade launcher on an assault rifle, or if its going on a vehicle so you can use gunnery, then they may be worth considering.


As for SAWs in the far future of shadowrun military warfare: I'd say yeah, they are still around, but its more a combined weapons platform than just one you can buy. A bonafide trained military SAW operator can expect to have a heavy gun (SA nemesis LMG, arsenal 29, is specifically called out as a squad support weapon) running all the goodies. Gasvent, servo harness, safe target system, mark 74 smartlink, tacnet, advanced safety. Maybe even light power armor with an articulated servo arm, or an underbarrel grenade launcher to serve as an on the fly mortar with tacnet's indirect fire capabilities. All the gear to stay alive, not shoot friendlies, and have mobility with your heavy weapon. It wouldn't be just a gun in that roll. It would be a whole gear package.

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 01:49 PM

LMG. If you don't have enough strength to render it equivalent to an AR (relative weight), then you don't have enough strength for full auto anyway.

Posted by: Loch Nov 19 2011, 01:54 PM

If you're not one-handing miniguns on full auto, don't talk to me.

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 02:13 PM

I've always thought a custom (because the rifle class has no decent listed models) rifle built out of the back of cannon companion was a superior alternative to an AR. Sure its semi-auto, but two shots of 9S base is decent, has better range and is far easier to feed apds than an AR is. It also cuts down on reloading in combat, ammo weight, and eliminates the need for either being a troll or having a gyro, which can be a pain in the rear.

Posted by: Paul Nov 19 2011, 02:21 PM

Raygun's http://raygun.10gauge.de/ will give you a good jump point in my humble opinion. You'll need to mod the damage codes and discuss AP with your GM but otherwise they are damned near ready to rock and roll.

So if for instance the http://raygun.10gauge.de/firearms/mg/minimi.html SAW in my game would likely get a Damage Value of 7P with an AP of -1, and otherwise would remain unchanged.

Posted by: UmaroVI Nov 19 2011, 02:48 PM

It's really a question of "are you using Heavy Weapons or Automatics?"

Heavy weapons:
Can't be your only weapon skill, because there's only the MGL-6 for concealable weapons.

Gives you the only effective nonmagical AE attacks possible.
The Ares Thunderstruck is a really good sniping weapon, also good for destroying vehicles.

Automatics:
The Ares HVBR is slightly superior to a HMG for overall firepower, although it does have less ammunition.
Concealable options.
One-handable weapons - mostly only relevant for Cyberarm of Awesome characters.

So really, the Ares HVBR and a HMG are so close in quality that it's more a question of whether you want to have the concealable and one-handed Automatics available to you, or whether you want grenade launchers and the Thunderstruck.

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 03:19 PM

Don't forget heavy weapons can be useful against most spirits the party should come across. And if its not then you certainly don't want to try charisma to force...

Posted by: Loch Nov 19 2011, 04:03 PM

Anybody can deal with spirits since SnS is available at chargen...

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 04:06 PM

Must be a 4e thing.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 19 2011, 06:04 PM

Yeah, and that's assuming that your GM allows taser-type low amperage stun weapons to affect spirits.

A lot of GMs don't, anymore than they allow poisons and diseases to work on spirits. Tasers require a nervous and muscular system in the target to do their job.



-k

Posted by: CanRay Nov 19 2011, 06:56 PM

Said it once, say it again: The Right Tool For The Right Job.

ARs for more covert operations. LMGs if you're a Troll and/or have some heavy Recoil Compensation (Barrel Reduction might be an idea as well.). MMGs/HMGs if you set up a firing position and are trying to maneuver enemy forces into it for whatever reason. Don't forget to trap your flanks.

Posted by: Falconer Nov 19 2011, 07:19 PM

So you're going to screw up game balance by giving a quintessential LMG... better than MMG damage.

Bad move.

If you want a SAW, just hand them a White Knight from the BBB and be done with it. It, for all effective purposes, is a SAW. LMG damage (does the same damage per round as the AR's like the M-16 clones). It can even accept a belt OR magazine feed just like a SAW. Even has excellent recoil comp built right in (gas vent 5!) allowing for use without a bipod/tripod.


My only gripe with the modification rules is I can't modify a LMG for hyper-velocity. The mod is written up as only available to AR's and SMG's. With a belted weapon being able to fire 2 6-shot bursts each round would be quite nice. Though admittedly quite powerful.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Nov 19 2011, 07:41 PM

See, I kind of view LMG's as the SR saw equivelents to the SAW. The MMG's covering the M60 and similar caliber weapons and the HMG coveing the Ma Duece, and anything up to 15mm. At 20mm or more we are in assault cannon calibers.


Not that there is anything official on this, just my opinion/interpretation.

Posted by: Udoshi Nov 19 2011, 07:48 PM

The fun fact about high velocity in the system is that the sidebar says only smgs and assault rifles can be CONSTRUCTED as HV weapons. This is why the ares HVBR and the ingram supermach exist, and the HVBR isn't actaully high velocity.

The MODIFICATION, however, can be applied to any FA weapon. That is literally the only criteria that needs to be met for it.

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 10:02 PM

No an LMG would be an M60 or BAR, a SAW is the same cartridge as an AR, so the same damage, but with more recoil compensation (and in reality more metal to handle more bullets in a short time without serious problems). A heavy machine gun should be a M2.

Posted by: CanRay Nov 19 2011, 10:31 PM

And an MMG/GPMG?

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 10:45 PM

Browning 1919. Unfortunately, SR terminology and damage do not always correspond to reality and the MMG is probably one of them. I usually try to stick with the 762x51 for light and 762x63 for medium. Even though in reality the light medium or heavy really does refer to the weight not cartridge; of course SR uses it for damage so I try to have it correspond to the cartridge and weight. Of course SR avoids all this by not listing stats for any actual firearms, so all players are left with is inference and deduction...

Posted by: CanRay Nov 19 2011, 10:48 PM

Same caliber as a BAR, just belt fed and better able to deal with continual rate of fire.

Posted by: Daylen Nov 19 2011, 10:53 PM

I know. I did say SR has some troubles with their weapon classes...

Of course the name and RL equivalent is just fluff so it doesn't really matter. And even putting the M2 as a heavy machinegun is off because a close equivalent would be the Barret from Cannon Companion which lists damage of 14D not 10S, which to me implies by heavy machinegun maybe they are talking about a water cooled browning.

Posted by: Paul Nov 20 2011, 01:24 AM

Eh? Oh, I just threw out some numbers with out even checking them. No worries there's plenty of nerds out there looking to double check them. Obviously adjust it to where it should be.