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Posted by: ZeroSpace Jan 8 2013, 02:30 AM

So, after a few weeks of off time due to Christmas, my game is going to be starting up again this Saturday. As such, I just want to check up on something that regards one of my players flaws. He's taken the Distinctive Style flaw twice, and when I reviewed what the flaw does, I realized I don't remember reading anything about 'physically tracking down a character' anywhere in the rules. I would prefer to have some official metric by which to determine how easy/hard it is to track someone down, to properly account for the character's 'distinctive style'.

For reference, the flaw is on pg 26 of the 3e Shadowrun Companion.

Posted by: Umidori Jan 8 2013, 11:10 AM

Unfortunately I've never played 3e, so I can't do more than state that in 4e, it gives a bonus to "identify, trace or physically locate the character (or
gain information about him via Legwork)".

I've always took it to mean that Distinctive Style gives a bonus to Perception (for physically spotting the person you're looking for), but the bit about Legwork suggests it also gives a bonus to the Social Skills (for getting other people to tell you if they've seen a one-eyed centaur with a green mohawk and a "JetBlack Lives!" tattoo splashed across his chest in flourescent blue and silver ink). There may even be a few other situations where the bonus might apply.

For example, if an NPC is looking for a PC in a crowded bar, they get bonus dice to their Perception test to pick the PC out of the crowd and tumult. If the NPC spots them, then decides to follow them discretely, I'd probably also say also add the bonus to their Shadowing test, as their target stands out in some way. But supposing the NPC fails to spot the PC in the bar, he could ask the bartender about any notable characters coming in lately. Now, technically, the bonus dice should probably actually go to the bartender's perception check to see whether the bartender notices the PC, but that can start to get a little hairy if you don't have every ancillary character on a run statted out, so I say just give the bonus dice to the NPC actively asking about the PC.

~Umi

Posted by: Dolanar Jan 8 2013, 11:18 AM

To add to what Umidori said, I would also give the bonus dice to applicable knowledge skills that the NPC may have that could apply to finding or knowing the PC. It may not come up much, but if the local go gang is known for associating with a freak like him, it may be worth noting for instance.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 8 2013, 02:45 PM

It needs to be something that, if Lone Star goes to crime scene A and crime scene B, they'll saw 'ah, this is the same guy'. So examples include:

Character always wears a clown suit and all of his attacks are prank-themed
Character is a mage, and all of his spells leave an immediately obvious and distinct astral or physical signature (no aura reading required to determine who the caster is)
Character has a funny limp or visible scar that makes him immediately distinctive at a distance
Character uses an extremely rare form of attack or tool for ALL of his missions, which can be immediately recognized

What I would NOT include is:
Character has a military-grade weapon he uses when things get hot
Character really likes explosives
Character dresses very nicely and likes to stand out

I'd be on the fence in cases where the character is a ghoul, shifter, or other weird creature

Posted by: Dolanar Jan 8 2013, 03:48 PM

I dunno, if its an extremely rare weapon that is VERY noticeable, it could qualify. Like a cutting Edge weapon Stolen from a research facility, that he now uses proudly as a "trophy"

Posted by: Ellzii Jan 8 2013, 04:25 PM

Explain it to your player this way. This is what distinctive style is:

From Goldeneye 1995:
Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky: (as Bond draws a gun to his head] Walther PPK, 7.65 millimeter. Only three men I know use such a gun. I believe I've killed two of them.
James Bond: Lucky me.
(a gun is pointed at the back of Bond's head)
Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky: I think not.

Zurkovsky knew exactly who he was dealing with by the click of Bond's gun. Distinctive style works for Caribean Campaigns were being noticed is everything. Up in the frozen wastes of Seattle (Anything below 15°C and I consider freezing.) Mr. Johnson gets his drawers in a knot if the job can be traced back to you and eventually him without any or minimal legwork. That is when "deniable asset" becomes "expendable asset".

-LZ

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 8 2013, 04:26 PM

Nezumi--What you're describing sounds to me much more like Signature than Distinctive Style.

Signature--There's some trademark that announces to people "I was here" and makes it easy to track you.
Distinctive Style--Memorable flair about a person that announces "I am here"

Using the Nolan version of Joker, leaving the Joker card would be a signature. If no one saw anything, the cops find the card and say "ah ha, the Joker was here." Eye-witness accounts of a madman with a knife, face paint, and scars on his cheeks would be the Distinctive Style.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 8 2013, 08:39 PM

I don't remember 'Signature' being mentioned in Companion.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 8 2013, 08:51 PM

Signature is the 4E Negative Quality, but could easily be done in 3E as the same cost as Distinctive Style (kind of like Ugly and Doesn't Care). It covers the calling card style evidence that LoneStar gets when showing up at two crime scenes and says they were obviously the same person.

Posted by: Umidori Jan 8 2013, 09:14 PM

I also agree that Distinctive Style is a bit different than a particular calling card, which would fit the Signature negative quality.

For example, Distinctive Style is immediately applied to all the metavariants and advanced character options in Runner's Companion. Even though a Giant doesn't look as far removed from a normal troll as a Minotaur does, they both are visually Distinctive from normal trolls. You can tell pretty much at a glance that something about this person is unusual, whether it be the fact that they're an elf covered in fur as with Night Ones, or whether they merely an ork with pronounced "fangs" in the case of hobgoblins.

"...inconveniently attention-grabbing and memorable" is how 4e Runner's Companion puts it. The sidebar for the quality also adds, "obvious,
attention-grabbing, glaring, or jarring". A giant green mohawk stands out immediately, and thus qualifies. A large and prominent facial scar likewise counts. A severe limp could count. Anything that is a permanent physical feature of the character, that helps to visually identify them, counts.

Behaviors do NOT count. Someone with a bizarre sexual fetish might be memorable for their kink, but it's not something that is visually obvious all the time. Using a Walther PPK as your exclusive weapon of choice doesn't count. Sacrificing a chicken and performing a voodoo ritual over the bodies of your defeated foes doesn't count. Regularly dressing in an outlandish ceremonial outfit such that you look like a voodoo priest or priestess, however? That probably DOES count. Unless, of course, you're attending a voodoo practitioners convention.

Distinctive Style makes you visually distinct in relation to your typical environment. It makes you stand out from those around you. If you have bright blue hair, but spend all your time hanging around punk-rockers with outlandish dye jobs, it doesn't apply. If you only ever wear gothic lolita dresses, but you live in Harajuku, you're not going to stand out from the crowds of otaku and cosplayers.

~Umi

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 8 2013, 09:22 PM

I'll just chime in here and say that because of the huge changes from 3rd or 4th, it's generally harder to make statements on how rules and certain mechanics work.
This is about a flaw and not a quality afterall.

Posted by: Umidori Jan 8 2013, 09:27 PM

As I said, I haven't played 3e, so yeah, grain of salt and all, but I find that whenever I do dig up prior edition rules to compare to 4e ones, it's almost always pretty much a direct copy-paste. Only time you find major differences is when something entirely new is added.

~Umi

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 8 2013, 09:40 PM

In this case, a Flaw (3rd Edition) directly maps to a Negative Quality (4th Edition).

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 8 2013, 09:46 PM

In application but not always in mechanics. A friend of mine set out to convert mental disorders from 3rd (there's a thread from way back when, about it) and found that he had to rework pretty much all of the penalties.

Posted by: Umidori Jan 8 2013, 09:52 PM

Well that's because of the nature of the pools and whatnot between editions. The boni or mali need to match the number system the edition is using. But the matter of WHEN a player should receive a bonus or malus from a Flaw / Negative Quality? That doesn't change much.

~Umi

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 8 2013, 09:57 PM

@OP You should question your PC about that it seems quite odd to take the flaw twice, is he taking it for different features? I remember it being quite binary in nature... Either you're distinctive, like my all time favourite example: The satyr biker, shaman with an Elvis totem. or you're not.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 8 2013, 10:01 PM

Well, it is a graded Quality, from 5-30 BP worth. You could have one great big Distinction, or several smaller ones, that might stick out individually. I guess.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 8 2013, 10:05 PM

I should probably listen to my own advice haven't touched 3rd ed since my early teens
Although checking with him is still a good idea, you know so his distinctive style isn't something silly.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 8 2013, 11:12 PM

Tymaeus--In 3E, it's not graded. All Distinctive Styles are worth -1. The grading came in 4E.

One possible explanation for taking the flaw twice is that he wants a distinctive Physical trait and something distinctive in Magical or Matrix tracking (which are specifically countermanded in the Flaw description, but fit with Nezumi's example of an Astral Signature that is glaringly obvious.). It would mean talking with the GM a bit, but I could see a case for it, especially if it flavored the appearance of spells for mundanes to see too.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 8 2013, 11:20 PM

Thought we were referring to 4th Edition. If not, I apologize.
EDIT: Yep, 3rd Edition... Missed the Tag at the top of the Topic. References to 4th threw me off a bit. Sorry.

Posted by: ZeroSpace Jan 9 2013, 12:30 AM

Just to clarify, the flaw states very clearly what it does, which is reducing target numbers by to physically track/locate the character in question. The problem is that I don't remember anything about actually performing said tracking/locating. There isn't any kind of page/book quote for the task. If anyone knows where I can find something on that subject, please tell me.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 9 2013, 01:33 AM

Like I said, Signature does not exist in SR3. If the OP mislabeled his thread and intended to ask an SR4 question, or if he's playing SR3 but wants to incorporate SR4 rules, of course your entire post is fully accurate.

I went ahead and cracked open the SR3 book. It says:



Behavior is acceptable. Dress is acceptable. As a GM, I consider your aura a form of dress, so having a distinctive aura is acceptable. Wearing a special weapon on display at all times is acceptable (which is a slight change from my original post, about using it on missions), since you're wearing it.

The only requirement is the character be easily remembered by other individuals.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jan 9 2013, 03:04 AM

And stand out in a crowd.

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Jan 9 2013, 04:40 AM

I can only suggest (since checking my books hasn't helped, though I've no access to LoneStar which might have something) that if you want to make tests for the PC's being tracked after a run you use the rules for legwork on pg253-4 (SR3). Vague as they are, it seems the most appropriate part of the rulebook to use.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 9 2013, 01:14 PM

I admit the 'grading' of a distinctive style can be a bit of a ballpark thing. For an example; a purple-haired elf dude wouldn't really get the flaw, IMO. A Surged purple haired elf dude who has Satyr Legs, Elongated Limbs, Metagenic Quality: Troll Height making him about eight and a half feet tall, Claws, Fangs, and Horns would likely have a rather high level of the style.

At the same time though, a Surged purple haired elf dude with Satyr Legs, Metagenic Quality: Troll Height WITHOUT the claws, fangs, and horns would probably have it around the same level; you just don't really forget SEEING that guy.

Now in another example, an un-naturally Short troll(say, the height of a tall orc/elf, around 7' or a hair under), may not really have it, or have it at a low level...BUT let's say the surged elf guy has normal hair, but the Troll height; he'd definitely have it(it comes with Surge...though that's something I can disagree with a bit since some Surge is internal, not external). I'm sure the short troll could be remembered as 'Yeah, he was a short troll, barely bigger than some of the taller orcs or elves I've seen', but the really big elf would be remembered as 'He was the biggest elf I've ever seen.' If someone asks ''Did you see a short troll'', you probably remember; but with average troll height around the low-mid 8 foot range, a troll around seven may not really stick out like such a sore thumb, though maybe light enough for a low level of the quality.

Then you might have the version that has nothing to do with Surge or anything, but a style. The Enigma from the Jim Rose Circus(he's the guy you may have seen whose entire body is covered in puzzle piece tattoos-can google that) would have Distinctive Style(IMO), for example.

I actually like this quality, but indeed I think it's a case of seeing what you're dealing with to see if the thing that's distinctive is distinctive enough to count as a flaw(and thus actually give people a bonus for remembering/locating them.)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 9 2013, 02:12 PM

Spikes, a Massive Troll Ganger trying to become a professional Shadowrunner... 11'1" (3.41 Meters) Tall and 1124.2 Pounds (511 Kilos). He stuck out a bit. But boy was he fun to play, in both Detroit (3rd Edition) and Hong Kong (4th Edition Conversion).

Yeah, He was pretty Distinctive. Do you know how hard it is to get tailored suits in that size?

Posted by: Manunancy Jan 9 2013, 07:49 PM

Easier than getting them off-the-rack....

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 9 2013, 07:53 PM

Once played a giant with the large quality(edge?), I think he was upwards 6 meters.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 9 2013, 08:34 PM

This is true...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 9 2013, 08:35 PM

Woah... That is Large...

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 9 2013, 08:43 PM

He had a very hard time finding a ride, eventually got him a custom built motorcycle that I bet wouldn't be street legal anywhere. He was kinda handy for getting people into places although, as he could easily reach the second or third floor of most buildings.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 9 2013, 08:49 PM

Yeah, no doubt.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 9 2013, 09:18 PM

Did he crawl through runs on his hands and knees?

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 9 2013, 09:30 PM

Fortunately it was a barrens focused campaign so not very much corridor crawling. He didn't last very long as I was in my "concept of the month" phase.

Posted by: Kliko Jan 9 2013, 09:56 PM

How did he end up? (getting killed)

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 9 2013, 10:01 PM

He didn't, he just went on to do "something else" while my new (equally bizarre) character joined the group.
Given that he was a nordic berserk physad, well he probably went on to Valhalla at some point.

Posted by: Shaidar Jan 18 2013, 04:11 AM

There is no hard mechanic specifically for tracking/locating.

However, as Distinctive Style was a Social Flaw I'd say that the modifier should apply to any attempt to locate the PC or information about them. Knowledge skill rolls relating to areas of knowledge that could be linked to the character (initial leads about character), asking around about the elements of their Style would modify the Social skills used for Legwork rolls (SR3 pg253), or directly sensing the character would be Perception (SR3 pg231).


Cop sees Neon green substance smeared on the top door jamb of the Stuffer Shack he and his partner were called to for the petty theft call. He was on the desk sergeant's drek list lately.

Cop asks bum outside recently robbed Stuffer Shack, "What did he look like?" (Legwork roll with Bum. [Easy Interrogation (Charisma)] test)
Bum replies, "Hard to miss, he was an African-American Troll with a 0.5 meter tall Neon green Mohawk." Points down the street, "He went that way."

Cop enters African-American Troll with a 0.5 meter tall Neon green Mohawk into the police report fields for perpetrator. "The bum said he went south." His partner drove south. Police computer responds with 5 additional incidents linked to Troll and Neon green Mohawk within the last year. (Knowledge Skill: Lone Star Procedures)

"Pull over near that bar up ahead," cop tells his partner. (Knowledge Skill: Gang Identification) "I got a hunch."

Cop asks ganger outside bar, "Seen an African-American Troll with a 0.5 meter tall Neon green Mohawk recently?"
"No.
"Really, are you sure?"
Totally, chum."

Posted by: Tiralee Jan 18 2013, 10:36 AM

I explained it, to my group, as something, you're not quite sure what, that makes you memorable, and somewhat obvious...

They took it anyhow. (In creation)

And then they paid a ton of karma to lose the disadvantage after the first time they were tracked by an unfriendly force.

-Tir

Posted by: nezumi Jan 18 2013, 11:51 AM

Lone Star has rules for forensic tracking, if I recall. However, they make it WAY too powerful, so you may not want to do that.

Overall Shaidar I think has the strongest suggestion. If someone is doing any sort of legwork on your character, he gets a -2 to TNs.

As a GM, I also rule it increases the likelihood of you appearing on the evening news by about 50%.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 12 2013, 03:24 AM

I waffled over whether to engage in thread necromancy for this, but I think it's important:

Every aura is distinctive. A single success on an Assensing test is sufficient to recognize any aura the Assensing individual has ever seen before—they don't even need to have previously Assensed that aura, just seen it. In consequence, I don't see much room for an Aura to get even more distinctive, especially not in a way that resembles the usual affect of the flaw (best I could come up with is to dispense with the need for Assensing and make the recognition automatic, which… ew.).

~J

Posted by: Umidori Feb 12 2013, 03:25 AM

There's also the -teeny tiny- matter of the rules for Distinctive Style specifically stating they have no effect on Astral or Matrix searches...

~Umi

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 03:27 AM

Create a custom NQ. "Distinctive Astral Style" for those distinctive auras.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 12 2013, 03:30 AM

Right, but that was already mentioned, so Nezumi was presumably indicating that he would be willing to expand interpretation beyond canon in this. My point was that there's simply no room to do so—Auras are already about as distinctive as they can possibly be without the test automatically succeeding.

~J

Posted by: Shaidar Feb 12 2013, 09:47 AM

That would cover Matrix Searches, but there my SearchFu fails. I can't find a similar NQ for Magical/Astral searches.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 12 2013, 12:25 PM

Actually, the closest thing mechanically to an Astral Distinctive Style would be Astral Impressions, though it's a loose fit. Note that this is SR3, and Data Shadow does not exist.

~J

Posted by: Halinn Feb 12 2013, 01:02 PM

A distinctive styled aura could expand it to being so describable that Joe the KE wizard-cop knows that Bob the Ares wagemage saw that aura back during the warehouse break-in. Then he calls in reinforcements to the Stuffer Shack to take down a rogue runner.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 12 2013, 02:41 PM

Every aura is unique. Not necessarily distinctive. Just like every dollar bill is unique, but the one where Georgie has been painted up with lipstick and purple hair is distinctive.

A mage walks into a bar and sees four accountants and a werewolf. The mage can remember their signatures and match them in the future, but only one of those is going to make him do a double take.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 03:31 PM

You need a better punchline Nezumi...
A mage, a werewolf and an accountant walks into a bar is an interesting start

Posted by: Kliko Feb 12 2013, 04:10 PM

We should put a vampire somehwere in there... or a lawyer.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 04:18 PM

Aren't they one and the same?

Posted by: Dakka Fiend Feb 12 2013, 04:27 PM

That's easy; one of them is http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0213263/?ref_=tt_cl_t3

Posted by: Kiirnodel Feb 13 2013, 06:16 PM

Wouldn't the negative quality Astral Beacon be what you're looking for here?

If I'm remembering the quality right it gives you the traits of "you are easier to notice astrally and easier to track". That's pretty much verbatim what Distinctive Style gives in the physical realm...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 13 2013, 10:29 PM

It wouldn't, because that's from the wrong edition.

~J

Posted by: Kiirnodel Feb 14 2013, 02:36 AM

Ah, my bad. Didn't notice the sr3 tag before. But you could use the SR4 quality as a basis maybe? Someone's Astral signature being Distinctive (unique) is a given. However, it being noticeable and easily traceable is a different story...

Posted by: Kliko Feb 14 2013, 05:35 PM

There's a sr3 edge called "Astral Chameleon" ...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 14 2013, 06:00 PM

And a corresponding Flaw, Astral Impressions. I didn't view Astral Impressions as being sufficiently analogous to Distinctive Style, but it could be an option.

~J