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Posted by: Crazy Ivan Jan 22 2013, 02:13 AM

So here on base, I managed to find another SR gamer purely by chance on my first week here. And lately, we've been talking about running an SR campaign instead of our usual fantasy bit lately due to new blood in our group providing...difficulties. Anyways, I've been thinking about different characters for different roles and levels of talent. A minimally augmented samurai presents a different level of challenge than a full body replacement monstrousity. While I've drawn up a FBR before for kicks and giggles (being able to spend 200-something on skill points and still have all my physical stats above 6 was really nice on only 400BP), I haven't done so much on the smaller power end of the stick.

I was thinking an eco-terrorist type runner who's still in college. Always athletic and larcenous (just smart enough not to get caught), the character fell into a Environmental ethics/Sociology/Anthropology/Some Other Liberal Class where through contact with the students and some of the faculty, was introduced to a small time eco-terrorist cell with a particular angst against the corporations (thought about a more political based cell with the UCAS, but the government isn't nearly as pervasive and influential in the 2070's). Anyways, the cell uses a little bit of technological know-how (with the corps sponsoring scholarships for state of the art fields, students on said scholarships are often approached for subtle recruitment.

Anyways, the character might have a solid close combat skill set (either from the streets or in a formalized dojo), strong athletic skills, maybe a decent shot with a pistol or shotgun, computer skills (not full hacker or rigger, but enough to be proficient), things like that.

The catch is I'm trying to make him effective for whatever role he's given (whatever that may be, I'm thinking the typical samurai role for good measure) without needing specialized augs. For weapon, I'm thinking just something light, meant to showcase his inexperience and newness (such as just a common handgun, like a light pistol along the lines of the berettas or the Ares lightfire. It'd be a contact heavy character (not quite a face), or even simplifying and just using the cell as a group contact). Qualities i'm thinking are Lightning Reflexes (+2 Reaction is nice, though I'm not sure if that allows me to exceed the natural max), SINner (standard), and not sure what else.

Where the issue is in combat are IP's. I'm not planning for anymore than a datajack than this character, and he's supposed to be a mundane, so that leaves drugs, which to me provides an interesting role-play bit. Cram and jazz seem like they'd be a good set for combat runs, then use the rules in Arsenal for tripping on different goodies that the character came across in the cell (or had access to before joining up with them, whichever).

So does any of the builders here on dumpshock care to clip in with a few ideas? or even a build they'd like to post? I use Chummer, and our standard set of books is Arsenal, Augmentation, RC, Street Magic, Unwired, and maybe the Runners Blackbook. Any ideas, corrections, and such would be appreciated.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 22 2013, 05:11 PM

If you don't want to become a junkie, high edge is your best bet. You can use edge to buy yourself an extra IP in a pinch.

There was a whole debacle about building unaugmented mundanes in a thread recently, self imposed limitation or something, should not be more then a page back.

Also, if you really, really want to use a pistol get an Ares predator. Ol' trusty is still holding up, cheap to!
But in most cases, automatics is flat out better.
Throwing weapons might be a nice niche as you have plenty of room to improvise (bricks, bottles, knives, frying pans, you name it!) and grenades don't care for how strong you are
Also, what's a good eco-extremist without some explosives?

Posted by: Crazy Ivan Jan 22 2013, 06:16 PM

The plan is to dabble in explosives. I'm not looking to have the top pistols off the bat, so I am thinking against the Predator for the time being, and even just dropping down to a low-availability light pistol (hence the Lightfire). I don't mind being a junkie for the character, as it opens up some role-playing chances. I hadn't thought of Thrown weapons, that's a good idea. Grendades wouldn't come until much later, but everything else would be cool.

I know I'm self-limiting, but until we actually get a level that we're playing at (street, syndicate, or corp), its hard to know how skilled to make the character to fit. Ideally, I'd like this character to be usable at all 3 levels,, but given the self-imposed limits, I don't expect to be able to survive a gunfight with corp security being unaugmented. The trick is to use my wits and other skills to get out of said situations. Thanks for the input.


Any more suggestions?

Posted by: thorya Jan 23 2013, 09:49 AM

Hey, so here's a build I threw together. It's hard to hit all the areas you mentioned for the character and be generally effective.

Attributes
Bod (4)
Agi (4)
Rea (3) (5)
Str (4)
Cha (2)
Int (3)
Log (5) => high for a street sam, but if he's in college on a scholarship, below 5 will be hard to justify
Wil (3)
Edg (3)

Qualities
College Education
Hawk Eye (the ability to shoot at a distance will be nice for a street sam)
Lightning Reflexes

Negative
Addiction (mild) (Betel)
Poor Self Control (Thrill Seeker)
SINner (standard)

Skills (ranks)
Athletics (3)
Close Combat (2)
Stealth (2)
Chemistry (1)
Computer (2)
Con (1)
Data Search (2)
Demolitions (1) (improvised explosives +2)
Dodge (1)
Electronic Warfare (1)
Etiquette (2) (academic +2)
First aid (1)
Hacking (1) (exploit +2)
Leadership (1)
Negotiation (2)
Perception (2) (specialization +2 visual)
Pistols (3)

24 knowledge skills, probably related strongly to his college education

Contacts (17 BP)
Including Drug Dealer, terrorists, etc.

10 BP worth of equipment
Recommendations
Armored Jacket with modifications
Ruger Warhawk, it seems like the type of gun an in experienced character would want. "Clearly the biggest gun is the best!"
Good commlink with good programs.

My drug combos from the other thread. None of these will have side-effects that will kill you, though a few will hit you with some heavy stun, which could hurt after combat. They're some you can consider for your doping choices. I would also recommend constantly using Betel, it gives you +1 to perception, doesn't have side effects and doesn't ever get worse than mild. I am a big proponent of drugs to help mundanes compete.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 23 2013, 02:17 PM

Why would it be hard to justify with a 3? I know plenty of people who actually worked very, very hard to get their grades, and they are no smarter than what I would call Average. It is not all that hard to get a Scholarship these days (In other words, I know a lot of people who I consider average who actually went to college on a Scholarship). For those with high GPA's, I would call a 4 more than sufficient. Only sutpid High GPA's might REQUIRE a 5+, and even then I would probably contest that. Hard work does make a difference. A 5 works, of course, but it would not HAVE to be a 5, and would not be hard to justify at a lower level.

Posted by: Crazy Ivan Jan 24 2013, 01:58 AM

I rather like that build. I hadn't thought of the Warhawk build, as that might work a bit better in effect for the intent rather than the puny light pistol.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 24 2013, 05:30 PM

I'm with Tymeaus on the logic point. I would swap lagic and agi.

I also think a warhawk would be a great option for the starting character...the warhawk is one of the best pistols for any character, but really needs mods to make it reach that level. Without them, its only SS, can't be silenced, low capacity, and no built in smartlink. But an inexperienced runner may not be aware of the fact that those are all problems. This gun probably benefits more from mods than most any other gun in 4e, making it a great gun for both the experienced and inexperienced runner.

Posted by: thorya Jan 24 2013, 05:52 PM

Sure you can justify it. Just like you can justify a hacker with reaction 5 and strength 1, even though it's not the norm. I also think that scholarships today aren't likely a good match for scholarships in the future. Today scholarships are awarded for need, merit, atheletics, nepotism, being from the right county, being part of an organization, etc. Heck, my high school had two scholarships for 500 to 1000 dollars that you could get just by applying for them and being a girl (because so few people did apply). But if the corps are going to award a scholarship, it's going to be based on what they get out of you. They can find just as many hardworking people with logic 5, as logic 3, and they don't need to go with someone average when they can get someone very much above average. I could see a 4 for this character, but if he's working in a state of the art field as the original description implied, I'm still not buying a 3.
Sure, the build gets better as a street sam if you drop logic (and strength for that matter), but I was trying to stay true to the original concept.

Posted by: Cain Jan 24 2013, 06:02 PM

The Predator isn't a top pistol. It's a workhorse pistol, and it's super common. Yes, it's a good all-around weapon, but it's not super-fancy or anything of the sort. Since it's cheap and readily available (as well as effective) I'd definitely suggest it.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 24 2013, 06:26 PM

Didn't there use to be this idea of a gunbunny that instead of reloading just pulled out another pair of predators?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 24 2013, 06:49 PM

I question whether there are JUST AS MANY people with Logic 5 as there are with Logic 3 in Shadowrun. That does not track, statistically.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 24 2013, 06:50 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: thorya Jan 24 2013, 07:05 PM

Haha, fine, there aren't the same number of people, but the point stands, there are a large number of people with Logic 5, when you consider the population in general, and the corporations can pick who they want and for state of the art fields they're not likely to pick an average intelligence person. They provide a low interest educational loan to the average hardworking guy, that way they have a wage slave all lined up, but they're not really competing against the other corps for that guy so no scholarship for him. Why would they need to?

Posted by: FuelDrop Jan 24 2013, 11:05 PM

Interesting... I'd have thought that the corps would be subtly trying to weed out the intellectual/insightful types from the general population, as they're the sort that might do something like question the status quo. Smart is good for a scholarship, obviously, but expect them to keep a close eye on you afterwards in case you're the sort to occupy wall street or something.

Also, having average student scholarships makes perfect sense within the setting: A scholarship that goes to those who work very hard for the corp encourages others to follow in their footsteps, which ingrains the habit of working hard for the mothercorp while they're still young so they don't think twice about pulling that third consecutive shift when they get older.

Posted by: Dolanar Jan 25 2013, 12:00 AM

Actually, I could see the Corps putting some money into "random scholarships" that do not directly benefit themselves to placate the general populace that they are a good corp & actually care about the populace at large.

Posted by: Manunancy Jan 25 2013, 05:48 AM

A relatively low logic can be explained fairly easily for that character if you go for the drugs route : he was smart enough to draw a corp's attention, but inexperienced and he got a dose of contaminated or mislabeled drug that got his brain a bit fried (if he dabbles in hacking, a nasty piece of ICE is another possiblity).

Posted by: Shaidar Jan 25 2013, 09:09 AM

An often overlooked sport could add some flavor and guidance: Bi-athilon.

Cross-country skiing and sharp shooting. System crunch: Longarms, Navigation(Mountain), and Running(Wilderness)

Posted by: thorya Jan 25 2013, 09:11 AM

Since everyone seems to prefer it, I present an alternate build called Special Snowflake-

Bod 5
Agi 7
Rea 6
Str 1
Cha 1
Int 3
Log 1
Wil 3
Edg 3

He has managed to get into college on a scholarship despite no social skills and a low logic, because of a computer glitch that mixed him up with another more qualified student and then he has just cheated his way through since. He did have high strength but he contracted a mysterious illness two weeks before the game started that caused his muscles to waste away while leaving all of his other physical abilities untouched. Just as mysteriously this disease cleared up.

Qualities
Aptitude (pistols)
Changeling (Class II surge)
Lightning Reflexes
Metagenetic Improvement (Agi)

Negatie
Mood Hair
Unusual Hair
(he can have both because his body hair shows his mood, while the hair on his head is just unusual)

Skills
Atheletics 2
Close Combat 4 (he fights with a stun baton, so his strength doesn't matter)
Stealth 4
Con 4 (specialization fast talk)- (he can uses this in place of any other social skill)
Demolitions 4
Dodge 2
Pistols 7 (specialization semi-automatics)- He has skills comparable to the best in the world with a pistol because he played a lot of miracle shooter and everyone knows that it's just like the real thing.

29 BP left over for equipment and contacts, more if you take some more negative qualities. Incompetent Astral Combat, Banishing, and Registering might be appropriate for snowflake.

Now that I've "fixed" him, anyone else care to throw out a build like the OP asked?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jan 25 2013, 04:43 PM

Never said I prefered a Snowflake Build, just mentioned that you could use a Logic of 3 and still make your story work. *shrug*
Don't really like your new build, and it would not fly at our table.

Posted by: thorya Jan 25 2013, 05:03 PM

I don't like it either and it wouldn't fly at my table, but neither would someone claiming to have an academic scholarship to work in a cutting edge field and who has been approached by a terrorist/counter cultural organization because of their characters technical know how, then taking Log 3 because Logic isn't useful for combat. Perhaps we've just read the character description above differently. It's fine if at your table Logic 3 is good enough for work in state of the art fields and that's okay with you, but I would ask the player to modify their character. *shrug*
If they want to be on a scholarship to avoid upping their monthly lifestyle costs, they could just as easily be in college on an athletic scholarship with their high agi and bod scores.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 25 2013, 05:40 PM

He never said HE had one of those, just that they happen.

"with the corps sponsoring scholarships for state of the art fields, students on said scholarships are often approached for subtle recruitment"

And who's to say that such field is in tech or science industry?

maybe its in a psych or marketing trend field sponsored by horizon, in which case Intuition would be the ideal attribute.

Posted by: thorya Jan 25 2013, 06:02 PM

Fair enough. I read it as he had one and it was why he was brought into the ecoterrorist group, but it doesn't have to be that way.

I'd be okay with the character having a high intuition or even a high charisma linked to his field instead of logic, as long as it actually fit.

He should also add the indebt quality or up his lifestyle cost to account for the college costs.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 25 2013, 06:13 PM

QFT

Posted by: Manunancy Jan 25 2013, 08:24 PM

Dayjob may be used too - the 'work' he has to perform being school presence, honework and the like, while the 'salary' represents the cash from whoever sponsors his scolarship.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 25 2013, 08:34 PM

If I were to make my own version of this character, and I was going to do it with 5 logic, I'd focus on support with combat skills to back it up. Its hard to do a sam character when your highest attribute is your 5 logic. So say it was a bio-medical/bio-chemistry degree, and having fallen into a eco-terrorist cell, using his chemistry know how for some serious IED skills.

As a starting character, have high chemistry skill (cook your own drugs, toxins, and explosives rather than having a dealer), Biotech skills, a few ranks in demolitions, a few ranks in hardware skill, with minimal ranks in computer/data search.

Bod 3
Agi 5
Rea 4 (6 lightning reflexes)
Str 2
Cha 2
Int 4
Log 5
Wil 3
Edg 3

Intelligent, reasonably intuitive. Did some light high skill sports in high school like....badminton, some track.

Positive Qualities:
College Education
Genetic Heritage [PuSHeD +1 to logic skills] (parents were decently well off in medical profession and had genework done, and are now pushing him into school)
Lightning Reflexes

Negative qualities:
Mild addiciton (Betel)
In Debt (15k)
Allergy (Uncommon, mild) [strawberries]
Poor self control (thrill seeker)
SINner (standard)

SKills:
Athletics group 2
Armorer 1 (Explosives)
Chemistry 4 (drugs)
Computer 1
Con 1
Cybertechnology 1
Data search 1
Demolitions 2 (Improvised Explosives)
Etiquette 1
First aid 3 (Combat wounds)
Hardware 2 (maglocks) - made a habit of breaking into the school lab to steal chems to cook drugs with
Infiltration 2 (urban) - ditto
Medicine 2 (Trauma Surgery)
Palming 2 (pickpocket) - when he needs a couple creds to get by, but has also found it pretty useful when slipping a pair of tranq patches on someone unnoticed
Perception 2 (visual)
Pistols 3 (revolvers) - being a lazy college student, spends a good deal of time playing shooting games. Favoring capsule rounds, he likes the idea of using a revolver so he can load whatever chem would be appropriate to the situation...
Throwing 1 (lobbed)
Shadowing 1
Unarmed combat 3 - has taken a few courses in self defense while in college

Augments
Datajack
PuSHeD (genetic heritage)


then 21 BP worth of resources, contacts, etc.

Encephalon R1 would be good if your willing to add in a little headware for an extra +1 on all logic skills

a good set of drugs to keep on you...
Betel obviously, lots of it
few doses of cram and jazz for combat situations
several doses of Psych (+1 Intuition and logic for 9 hours, no major side effects)
some zen, because your a tripping eco-terrorist hippie
and a dose of Kamikaze for emergencies, or when you feel like frothing at the mouth and ripping someone apart with your hands

the cavalier deputy is good for a gun that will pack some lethal punch, has 7 round cylinder, fire SA mode already, and fun when loaded with narcojet capsule rounds. Gammascopolamine later on, but too high availability for starting gear.
some splash or gas grenades could round out later on. For the moment, you can whip up some Molitov cocktails on your own for practically nothing.

otherwise, a simple houldout or light pistol will work just as well with capsule rounds, thought at slightly shorter range

armor will be difficult, but you shouldn't be playing as a samurai anyway. stay behind cover. pop out, shoot, duck back in and wait for the drugs to kick in.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 25 2013, 08:41 PM

5 feel a bit to much brain trust to me, this guy would have a lot of squandered potential.
4 with pushed seem rather reasonable although, he's smart but not "singled out for NASA application smart"

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 25 2013, 09:26 PM

Are you kidding? wasted potential is the whole theme of the character! he's burning all his potential with drugs and eco-terrorism

jk

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 25 2013, 09:43 PM

Logic 5 represents someone smarter then 75% of the population though... As in someone that could be top of the class.

Posted by: NiL_FisK_Urd Jan 27 2013, 07:18 PM

I think Logic 5 represents someone with an IQ of 130+ (better than 98,5%), and Logic 6 of 145+ (better than 99,9%)

Posted by: UmaroVI Jan 27 2013, 07:34 PM

I think logic 5 represents someone with a 5 on a scale of 1-7.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 28 2013, 01:32 PM

Point being, someone with a logic 5 trying to be a samurai is lots of wasted potential. Putting that to use in other ways is much better. And you can't say someone with logic 5 wouldn't be running the shadows, or else every hacker that makes their character you know...an actual hacker wouldn't be running the shadows. Why would my character with 5 logic, r3 cerebrial booster, PuSHed, Encephelon, Math SPU, and lots of ranks in software be running the shadows and making his own hacking tools instead of working for one of the megas, writing their newest OS?

Why would that mage with super high magic and lots of skills be running the shadows?

Shadowrunners are all about wasted potential if you are going to look at it from that perspective. From the character's perspective, he's smart, very smart. Probably about as smart as you or I (I think a lot of people that play this game trend to the higher than average intelligence). Sure, my potential isn't being "wasted" from a corp standpoint since I'm the Network Admin for the 2 plants I oversee. But when I was in college, I wasted a LOT of time playing D&D, MTG, [insert video game], etc...I could have just as easily been one of the many "Student activists" throughout history, wasting my potential joining an eco-terrorist cell and fighting back against "the man" instead of focusing on completing my bio-chemical degree bankrolled by "Big Pharma"

Posted by: Halinn Jan 28 2013, 01:41 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 28 2013, 02:04 PM

If thats what you want to think, go ahead. Tabletop games, and shadowrun in particular, are more cerebral in nature.

Also think about the type of people that play tabletop games. These are usually the guys (like me) that didn't have as much interest in sports, cars, getting completely wasted on the weekend and instead showed more interest in reading, learning how to program or manage a database, or learn advanced physics/mathematics. There's a reason why people who play D&D are stereotyped as nerds.

You may not fit into that mold. As I said, people who play this game trend to having a higher than average intelligence. I happen to know that I have a much higher intelligence level than most people I will talk to on a given day. That doesn't mean I'm seeing myself as smarter than I am because I want to feel superior, even if I would like to. It just means that I have seen the evidence in test scores, achievements, and general day to day experience. And the guys that have been in my gaming group since college are all similarly of higher than average intelligence. One of them is also a Network admin for another company, one is a network security consultant, and another does development for Lockheed Martin. None of us are over 30.

Posted by: Crazy Ivan Jan 28 2013, 02:05 PM

The point of the character in the ideal situation is primarily the role-play character aspect. Combat wise- it's pick the right fights, and on my terms where I don't need a quarter millino nuyen of cyber pulsing through my body to fight. He's not meant to be the end all, be all of combat monkeys. I don't mind the idea of bringing the logic down to the 4 level, as that might make sense. But that is running in the ideal campaign.

Potentially, looking at the games I'll get to play in down the line, its more likely I'll be on the hacking side of things, but all that will change is the subtle combat focus to hacking (so his scholarship, logically, would be for something in computers, although the idea of the character is so loose, it could be for anything). If he was a face, he might be a psychologist, or a marketing specialist. But I like the input everyone is contributing, thank you.

Posted by: Sage2000 Jan 28 2013, 02:26 PM

I agree.

Although I do HATE those "logic 1", "charisma 1", 'str 1" , its not what you are suggesting. Logic 3 would mean the players cares about the character. Logic 4 would mean the character is above average. Logic 5 would be a distinctiveness... its not what the original poster asked for.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 28 2013, 02:56 PM

I fashion myself a logic 3 kind of guy, if I'm giving average Joe the benefit of the doubt.
More like logic 4 if I don't, but that says more about the average then it does about me...
Really fashion myself more of an intuition person...
Supposedly I'm the spokesperson for wasted potential

Posted by: ZeroPoint Jan 28 2013, 03:57 PM

I really like the idea of the psychologist or a marketing/memeologist (one of my professors was a memeologist...hilarious guy) being bankrolled by horizon. And being a face doesn't have to take a LOT of karma/BP to do and can be done relatively well without augmentations. It obviously does better with, but its not really necessary.

Edit: fixed some typos/grammatical errors, and just general "WTF was I typing?" type errors.

Posted by: Crazy Ivan Feb 6 2013, 11:08 PM

So looking at the campaign as it is coming, I will be the party's hacker, although after talking to the DM, it isn't going to be heavy in the Matrix, though at least a hacking presence will be useful. The party, beyond the adept gunslinger, doesn't have anyone else with a charisma beyond a 2 and are relatively generic combat monkeys. So yeah, I'm on face detail.

Which isn't a big deal. Here's what I've got for a set of plans. I'm trying to stay with almost completely legal cyberware (what little I have) and gear as best I can, minus the drugs and the gun. So skill-wires, and the Skillsoft Cluster for Knight Errant in Unwired gives me Dodge and Unarmed Combat at Rating 3 with a Skillwire Rating 3 system, leaving me 2 slots open for any other activesofts I may need. My 'link isn't as strong as a total hacker, mostly 4s and a few 5s. Where I'm drawing a blank is a my knowledge skills. I built him as an elf, just to help with the face end of things. Qualities wise, I went with Adrenaline Surge and Lightning Reflexes, which ensures I get at least the first move in combat, and a reaction of 7 (before drugs). On the negative side, I picked up Day Job (40 hours), to represent his college status and scholarship (represents going to college at the dorms, along with the allowances that Horizons sub corp gives as further incentive as a Medium lifestyle). Also, Horizon has given the character the Records on File quality as well.

For background, I'm thinking that his parents were killed during the Crash 2.0, which sparked an interest in computers. Through the Matrix, he learned and began following various conspiracy theories posted by an assortment of personalities. The character was picked up throuigh a community service program sponsored by Horizon for orphans of the Crash 2.0. Going to school through this program, he showed a strong skill with computer based skills, and earned a scholarship (through Horizon) for a degree in computer sciences at UW.

At this point, he started making his connections with his terrorist cell comrades within UW, and began engaging in more illegal affairs. His computer knowledge went to scamming quickly, he learned his hacking trade, and began making lesser connections across the city of Seattle. Fake SINs, secondary commlink, and a few friends in low places to keep his ear to the street. When the game begins, he is striking out on his own to start running the shadows against the megacorps (with the possible exception of Horizon, but he's no stranger to the conspiracy theories). He is still attending college, and uses his college contacts to effect.

Here's where I'm stuck- I've got everything else figured out as far as my gear, drugs, vehicle, skills, where for the most part, I'm good to go. But I'm having troubles with a few more "for flavor" knowledge skills and contacts. I've got Conspiracy Theories (Corporate), Matrix Security Procedures, and Combat Tactics (Terrorist) as the main ones for that concept.

But I've got (at present, prior to any tinkering I may do) 27 build points to spend on contacts, and I'm having troubles thinking of simple contacts for him. I'm thinking about 10 points in the eco-terrorism cell as a group contact, 12 in 2/2 contacts on limited knowledge/skill (akin to a med student/doctor, a low-level criminal such as a Yak Kobun), and a 3/4 fixer? or maybe 4/3, either way. But I'm looking for ideas and suggestions.
Anyone care to help with personalities?