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Posted by: BluSponge Jan 31 2013, 07:37 PM

How do you, as a player, go about choosing your contacts? How do you, as a gamemaster, offer choices to the player?

Do you just rifle through the Contacts section of the book and pick a couple that seem appropriate? Do you have a master list you've painstakingly created over time? Do you limit the players' options at chargen, or let them run wild with ideas/suggestions?

I've seen an "index" of Shadowrun contacts floated on the forums (SR4, IIRC), but that list is devoid of any sort of context. No sources, page numbers, or even an effort at organization.

I can easily see this as a potential bottle neck point in chargen. I don't really want to randomize it, but I imagine there has to be a better way to lead new players through this maze than, "here, choose two contacts".

Anyone have suggestions? Tricks and techniques that have become staples of your campaigns?

Thanks,
Tom

Posted by: bannockburn Jan 31 2013, 07:58 PM

Well, I maintain a list of NPCs and their roles. Also what connection rating they have as well as min or max loyalty, where applicable.
I also expect my players to have fleshed out their contacts with at least a name and the kind of relationship their character has with them. If they ask for help, I make suggestions from my list after they told me of what type of connection they're thinking.
If they do it themselves and no glaring things pop up (6/6 contacts, e.g.), I accept it and go with it.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 31 2013, 08:06 PM

Step 1) Choose a contact
Step 2) Give it a name!
Step 3) I'll make something up on the spot the first time the contact comes into play.

Having experience with improvisation theatre helps with that last part

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 31 2013, 08:09 PM

Except that there's nothing wrong with having 6/6 contacts. Absolutely nothing whatsoever.

Posted by: bannockburn Jan 31 2013, 08:10 PM

Except that's not for you to decide.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 31 2013, 08:23 PM

Generally, I first decide what I want the contact's profession would be. Then I use some funky reference for the name. For example, my sniper has a gun runner contact named "James McCullen" (G.I. Joe), a fixer named Gaff (Bladerunner), another fixed named "Richard O'Conner" (famous WW2 general), and a beat cop name "Jim Malone" (Untouchables).

Posted by: BluSponge Jan 31 2013, 08:27 PM

Well I wouldn't think there would be...depending on the contact. I'll toss out the whole Elder Dragon 6/6 issue I've seen pop up. I might likewise have an issue with a Mafia Don or Yakuza Boss at 6/6. I can see players abusing some aspects of this, and then complaining when you effectively negate their expensive contact due to their own character actions in play. You'd have to work hard to justify that level of relationship with me.

But now, I'm more interested in making contact selection a bit narrower, more meaningful, and faster. After all, its becoming clearer to me that its the PC's contact network that can really drive the campaign. So rather than truck out a list of 200+ different contact archetypes a player could choose from, I'd rather give them a score or less of really meaningful choices for them, plus maybe one or two wildcard contacts.

Tom

Posted by: Umidori Jan 31 2013, 08:33 PM

I can understand wanting to be on the same page as a player regarding their 6/6 contact, since someone with that much inlfuence is going to be a major sort of regional player and that can affect the larger campaign dynamics, but the mere fact of a player HAVING a 6/6 contact isn't a problem.

They pay the BP or Karma, they can have any rating of connection and loyalty they like.

~Umi

Posted by: thorya Jan 31 2013, 08:52 PM

Admittedly, I GM more often than I play, but I help a lot of people make characters.

A fixer is mandatory. In our games though, they're not the guy you go to for your everyday stuff. The fixer's not going to waste her time chasing down a box of ammo for you. Maybe a big ticket item.

I usually try to pick up someone on the street for info, a bartender or similar who talks to a lot of people and can hear rumors. I like bartenders because it also gives me a place to hang out and if people come looking for me over a job or to get even, I got a guy that will give me heads up beforehand.

Then I go for a family member or real close friend, preferably someone with a high loyalty and not a lot of connection. Maybe even a SINner. They're good because they ground your character and give you something beyond running. They also give you a place to go to ground and someone legit.

Then I pick up a dealer. Convenient for getting you stuff and another good source of info if you're going on the street level. Also, usually a good connection for getting in touch with some muscle, a distraction, and some other useful connections.

Then I pick up a corporate contact, for corporate info. I usually pick a lawyer or executive. The lawyer can be good if you end up in Lone Star hands and an executive might be willing to arranged something off the books.

Then it's nice to have a mechanic if you need to fix up your wheels or you want to pawn parts or scrap something from a run.
A taxi contact is nice if you need a ride out of a sticky situation without questions asked. Also great if you need to move people around, need some surveillance, or something else discreet.
Same goes for a delivery truck driver, especially good for moving big items.
A repairman, plumber, etc. is great for installing your hardware in someone else's place. No one will question if them if they are actually legit. They also can hook you up with equipment and tools that might be hard to acquire legally otherwise.
A hacker contact is good if you don't have one on your team, likewise with a magician. Usually the hacker can get you a line on burner commlinks and other electronic gear.
Ganger's are good contacts for unloading gear that your fence probably wouldn't take. They can also get you guns and drugs.
A street doc or legitimate doc you trust to fix you up.
If you have a lot of 'ware, a clinic or cyber-technician that can put more in or repair what you got and isn't going to outfit you with a new cranial bomb.

I obviously wouldn't have all of these, but I usually have 4-5 contacts. And you make more as the game goes on.

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 1 2013, 12:23 AM

When our group makes new characters we all choose the same fixer but apart from that its grab what you want.

Posted by: crazyconscript Feb 1 2013, 02:24 AM

Well, I haven't managed to play in a while since I keep end up being GM for games, but I have had to help numerous players who find contacts on of the harder things to figure out on their characters (after knowledge skills)

One method I use is that at the beginning of the game, I make up a sample cross-section of different personalities and businesses that may provide ideas for contacts, or help as jump-off points for what kind of contacts to have. Each section is intended to show how any potential personality would fit into a working "neighborhood", and I find it helps players believe their characters live in a world where contacts don't just live in limbo until the character needs them. I haven't done this for all my games however, as it requires a bit of prep-work on my side making these networks of people. I usually only do it if I plan to use the NPC roster that results in the game to at least some degree.

Quick & dirty contact decisions though tend to be asking questions like:

-Who/where did your character get all that forbidden gear from?
-So, your character has an Addiction, who gives you your poison of choice?
-Character has lots of 'ware? Was it installed by a friend or by anonymous doc?
-Got a medical problem (bad allergy/eyesight/immune system etc)? Maybe their doc could be a contact!

Actually, now that I think about it, Negative Qualities and character quirks end up being great sources for reminding players what kind of contacts their characters might have via those qualities. Biased? Know policlub members! Criminal SIN? Ex-Prisonmates/guards! Positive qualities work too but negative ones can give you more interesting ways of knowing people.

Posted by: O'Ryan Feb 1 2013, 02:33 AM

How many contacts do you normally take for your characters? In my group, it's a safe bet that unless they're the face the only contact is a generic fixer...

Posted by: X-Kalibur Feb 1 2013, 02:36 AM

I agree with this. Obviously the GM has final say on what is or is not allowable, but having a 6/6 shouldn't be outright banned. Not all 6/6 are going to be elder dragons or Damien Knight, and in fact, the GM should totally veto those ideas. What if the character is good friends with, say, a famous athlete or musician? Stranger things have happened and they open up good potential for runs.

Posted by: crazyconscript Feb 1 2013, 10:27 AM

In my experience unless I house-rule some degree of free contact points, players end up with 2, maybe 3, contacts. Usually low level ones. Players who want to play a Face type character typically grab something between 3 and 6 different ones and tend to be the only ones to heavily invest in contacts without freebie contact points available.

Of course, if I -DO- give freebie points, they tend to become the ONLY points spend on contacts for everyone but the face.

And as for rating 6 contacts, I have never actually had a problem with it. My players rarely opt for them, and when they do it has never been 6/6 both sides. A Loyalty 6 contact is a really reliable go-to contact in their field, but is never a get-out-of-jail free card, and even if they are repeatedly abused being taken for granted may drop their rating to 5 or lower depending on player actions and how they roleplay interaction. Connection 6 I have only had featured in games at chargen once or twice, and players went in with full understanding that the more connected their contact was, the less time they would have for their character. Even a loyalty 5/6 contact wont be available to help out the PC's 24/7 if he has very high connection rating. And connection also does not translate as "free service". Higher loyalty just tend to expect favours in lieu of cash for more demanding services rendered.

The highest contact I have ever had featured in a game was I had an ex-Mafia man who maintained a L5/C6 contact in the mafia, a relatively powerful Don but not the top man. The reasons for this were richly detailed in the characters backstory and were a core concept in making the character, and it worked out well.

Posted by: thorya Feb 1 2013, 10:58 AM

The other thing to remember is that contacts go both ways. You can call and ask contacts for favors, but they can call and ask you for favors. 6/6 contacts are fine in this context, even great dragons and Damien Knight. I've had some good runs come out of a contact that needs something covered up or a gang you know wants you to knock off a shipment of Ares weapons because they've got a buyer lined up.

And any favor a bartender's asking you for is going to be a hell of a lot easier than something Damien Knight wants. And the bartender's going to take it a lot better if you don't come through for him. I take anyone taking 6/6 contacts of the great dragon variety as a sign that they want to play in the big leagues.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 1 2013, 11:06 AM

Only real problem I have with 6/6 contacts is that there's no cost of opportunity, one 6/6 cost an equal amount of points to two 3/3, despite probably being more influential then both put together.
For the record I would treat "really big fish" connections at above C6

Posted by: crazyconscript Feb 1 2013, 12:59 PM

Well, Connection 6 contacts aren't intended to be playing in the world-level super-leagues. The examples on pg 88 of SR4A mention Connection 6 as being a Mafia underboss. That is a LONG way away from someone who runs even a A-rating corportation, never mind AA or AAA or even Great Dragons

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 1 2013, 01:32 PM

Connection 6 from the table.

Posted by: crazyconscript Feb 1 2013, 01:33 PM

Which still does not translate as CEO of multinational corporation/Great Dragon to my mind

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 2 2013, 06:21 AM

Wasn't arguing one way or the other just quoting the rulebook.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 07:21 AM

Depends entirely on the table. As a GM, I reserve the right to approve or disapprove of any detail on a character's sheet, be it a contact, the rating of some gear or program, the character's metatype, or even just their choice of name.

And I'll be frank; I prefer if most or all of a character's contact have neitehr Loyalty nor Contacts above a 4 to start, maybe one contact with a single rating at 5. Definitely, I want the sum of their ratings to be 7 or less. Contact or Loyalty ratins of 6 are, in all but the most unusual of cases, "right out", period. And both together on teh same contact? Never.

You, and your table, are different. And that's fine. But remember, that just because it's legal by the rules, doesn't mean it has to be allowed by any particular GM.

After all: 7 Charisma, 7 Willpower Pixie Mystic Adepts are legal ... but there are plenty of tables that won't allow them, nonetheless.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 2 2013, 07:33 AM

Okay...add the word inherently to it. Geez.

Though with your "sum of 7 or less", how in the heck do you expect your players to have any decent contacts that won't sell them up the river for a pittance? And a Fixer of Connection less than 6 is worthless in his role as a Fixer--this is because the whole point of his role is to put you in contact with people, and without a good base of connections, he can't do that.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 08:06 AM

A fixer that doesn't have multinational connection is worthless?
Hardly, it depends on what scale the group operates at. In a single city campaign a connection 3 or 4 fixer is adequate.
and even a loyalty 1 contact wouldn't sell you off to the first chum that offered some cash, maybe to a valued contact... But professional courtesy and not ratting out your clients should be par du course, especially for a fixer that lives or dies by his rep.

Posted by: Umidori Feb 2 2013, 08:12 AM

With worthwhile players so often hard to find, I could scarcely imagine even contemplating disapproving something like a player's choice of character metatype or name without a damned good reason.

It might very well be the GM's prerogative (I'd not call it a right, personally) to reserve final judgement of any and all details, but I have trouble contemplating any but the most outlandish situations in which there would be an actual need for such action.

~Umi

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 08:13 AM

Connection 4, Loyalty 3. Regional ties, "acquaintance" - more than just biz, you probably hit the local watering hole for drinks together every week or so.

Connection 5, Loyalty 2. National ties, and though th relationship is pure business, you're a regular; you're not the kind of guy this contact is going to burn for "a pittance", you're as much a valuable resource to them, as they are to you (or else: why the heck are you their contact, again?).

Connection 3, Loyalty 4. Sure, their influence probably doesn't stretch much past the local neighborhood. But at loyalty four? They're not going to sell you out for anything shy of a Big Score.

Connection 2, Loyalty 5. Alright, so he's just the bartender at your local bar-of-choice. But, he's got your BACK, even in a fight. Makes his place a good choice for meets; if something bad goes down, and you dive behind the bar? He'll grab one shotgun, and toss you the other (if you're not already armed). Hes on your side, and if he's the owner, so're his bouncers.

...

Those are all plenty useful - to the right character, in the right game, under the right circumstances.


Tell that to Bull. Season 4 of Missions, the standard / default Fixer, MacCallister, has Connection 5.


"Good" starts well short of "the best possible". A fixer with connections 4+, can do his job. Newbies work for / with the guys with C4, the upwardly mobile graduate to C5s, and the novahot stars of the shadow world work with C6s.

And in fact, the description of Connection rating 4 includes "low-level Mr Johnson, fixer or fences with regional ties"; even Connection 3 includes "street level fixers", the guys who may not have friends throughout the region - but he does know people all across the east side of Seattle (for example).

Connection 5 suggests fixers with National ties.

And connection 6 is for fixers with global ties. The handful of fixers at that level? Dude, they give jobs to people like Kane, not Shortstraw McN00benpants the starting SR4A character.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 08:19 AM

Me: "I'd like to start this game out out low-level, barely a leg above typical gangers, and grow from there. It'll be PG-13, but on the more-serious side of stuff."
Player A: "I want to play a metasapient AI hacker/rigger."
Player B: "And I've got a cool pornomancer build I want to try!"
Player C: "My dude's name is gonna be Rimballer McSquealinpants the Ninth. That's his real name, too - says so on his SIN. And he has a glowing, foot-long penile implant!"

... yeah. O_o

Anyway: while I reserve the right to do so, I generally don't excercise it unless I have an actual problem with something (like, well, see above).

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 08:29 AM

I've come to accept that most players are utterly worthless at coming up with names. I don't know what's worse... Fantasy names where Bob is a no no (Although I played with a holy warrior called Bart once, his full name was Bartholomew although)
or next-door to reality settings where Bob can be okay.

Posted by: Umidori Feb 2 2013, 08:43 AM

I actually don't see a problem.

I'll just make sure to enforce all the inconveniences of being a SINner, having a memorable and absurd name, and needing to wear extra large pants that are thick enough to block out the light and not give you away in a dark alley. If they survive as a Runner, they'll probably become the stuff of legends, which is awesome! And if not, they can always become a hilarious cautionary tale, which is also awesome!

~Umi

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 09:01 AM

People do some extreme stuff today to attain a sense of individuality, imagine how that would escalate in a megacorp surveillance society where everyone constantly try to shove lifestyle and trends down your throat.
I mean for christ sake I met a guy (one of those wimpire blokes, like goths... more blood sucking and fetish domination stuff) who legally had changed his name to "Dark"

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 09:09 AM

And in the process, they'll fall outside the scope and/or theme of the kind of game I wanted to run. Which is nothing short of a problem.

Let's try a different genre. Superheroes. Say Iw anted to run a Mutants & Masterminds game, using the Teen Hero supplement: all the PCs are supposed to be highschool students, attending a private school just for kids with unusual powers. Now, some flexibility is definitely possible. You want to play an 18-year-old slacker who's been held back a time or two ... sure, we can make it work. You want to play a 10 or 12 year old McSmartypants who's skipped enough grades to be a sophomore or junior despite his age? Same thing, we can make that work too. Heck, you want to play an un-powered teenager, knowing full well the disadvantages of doing so? Hey, sure, maybe you're one of the faculty member's kid, and your tuition is a job benefit. We can work with all of those, and plenty more, too

But you try and bring a 20-something to the table? Or a 7-year-old? What part of "highschool kids", a.k.a. "adolescents", didn't you understand?

That's where I step in, as GM, and say "no".

...

Back to shadowrun. I decide I'm going to run a gang-level game, and the players are all members of the same whiz-kid gang; everyone has to have the Adept, Magician, or Mystic Adept quality. So, sorry but no, you're not going to play a technomancer. Hacker-adept, sure. Technomancer, nope.

...

Now, if all I say is "default SR4A, any official books" and nothing else? I'm unlikely to even WANT to excercise that prerogative. But if you try and slide a pornomancer in on me, that itch might start up again ...

Posted by: BluSponge Feb 2 2013, 04:30 PM

Wow! This thread really blew up when I wasn't looking.

If you'll forgive me, I want steer this thread back a bit to its original purposes. I really liked what Thorya brought up in the previous page, so let me build on that. I think what might help the contact buying part of chargen would be dividing up potential contacts into, say three tiers of importance. The first tier would be of critical importance (fixer, for instance). Second tier would be cursory contacts, individuals that are important to know, but not vital to what the character does. The third tier are personal contacts, people the character might know in a non professional capacity. You would have a set of these for each "archetype" of character. Pick the one that closest fits the characters concept and off you go.

On top of that, what I'd find valuable are tables to generate personalities, personal interests (your hard nosed fixer collects hedgehogs), and dark secrets (in hoc to the yakuza).

Has anyone built anything along these lines for their own purposes? Or know where I can find something like this?

Tom

Posted by: crazyconscript Feb 2 2013, 05:12 PM

Personally I'm not sure if I would even know how to approach using a set of tables/divisions like that. Contacts to me are always quite individual creations, with the player deciding what quirks/personality traits they possess. Or if a GM is creating NPC's and then the PC's develop them into a contact, such personalisation is on the GM's shoulders but it is still never a cut&dry character made out of random traits, though I suppose a random generation method in this case stops "Bob that wage-slave you bribed that one time". Not relying upon pre-set personalities also allows for including things the PC's inadvertently mention or mistakenly assume into the contacts personality. Plus, you can make any deep-dark secrets or things be ones that relate to the characters/plot.

As for divisions of contacts into "tiers of importance", I dont think I could ever run a game with this. I mean, its up to the players which contacts their characters consider important. The L3C2 drug dealer may end up being more "useful" to a team in many circumstances than the L4C6 Knight-Errant Captain simply because the players playstyle and plans call upon the drug dealers skillset more often.

Posted by: toturi Feb 4 2013, 03:53 PM

As long as the description of the contact fits the contacts' stats, then barring any other additional restrictions (house rules, etc) it should be fine.

In fact as long as the back story provides a plausible explanation for the character's abilities, then the character is probably going to be alright by me. Pornomancer? Sure, make sure the story fits and all is fine and dandy.

7 year old in a high school game? Sure, a prodigy, a genius on the level of Tony Stark or Reed Richards. A 20 year old? Sure, an extremely low IQ special education track finally in his final year of high school. A game for highschool students? Or a game for teenaged highschool kids? One has no age limits, the other does.