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Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 10 2013, 09:22 AM

Warning, if you haven't read the new books this might have some spoilers.

Been reading through some of the newer books lately and... well, something is up with Fastjack. There are side mentions to him being a bit under the weather but things seem to be happening on Jackpoint that have me wondering. More than once he's posted something that seems out of character and then posted afterwards to the tune of "Wow I must be tired, I don't even remember posting that" Or the like. It's not constant, but it comes up once or twice a book.

Anyone know what's up with him? I haven't read every word of every book so if I've missed something can some one tell me where to find it/what it is?

Also, it seems to be spreading, or affecting others. I think Netcat had a post that she 'replied' to herself that she didn't post, and figured it must be Fastjack trying to remind her to change her password more often.

It's like someone's either personally hacking Fastjack himself, or Jackpoint and Fastjack can't figure it out. If he can't figure it out, he might keep it to himself.

Anyway, if anyone's got the 411, let me know.

Posted by: SIN Feb 10 2013, 12:05 PM

I don't think anything beyond the little snippets of suggestions that something is up has been revealed so far. Anyone else know differently?

Personally, I think it would be most affecting if FastJack genuinely was just getting old. A legend of the shadows making it to old old age (incredibly rare) through his wits and mental prowess and then slipping away into senility, watching his marbles roll away... Handled correctly, it could be the saddest thing in Shadowrun lore ever.

I imagine it'll turn out to be some techno guff about the resonance however.

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 10 2013, 12:09 PM

I'm fairly sure FJ can afford a Leonization or two.

Posted by: hermit Feb 10 2013, 02:15 PM

Something in the shdowruntabletop.com Minigame hints to him becoming possessed in some way. there a line to the effect of "Jack, when he is himself" will do something. Might be the "Erase, Rewrite" thing hinted at in the Scott Schletz Jackpoint post at Shadowrun.com.

But all that really is only speculation. There will probably be something in Stormfront, though.

And yeah, there's Léonisation, which easily extends a human lifespan into several centuries, if they have the wealth necessary.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 10 2013, 02:49 PM

Like someone that weathered would trust any clinic enough to even let them trim his nails, let alone rearrange his genetic code.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 10 2013, 06:40 PM

I don't know, it's just weird, and there's enough of it in the books that it's not just a hand wave thing. -something- is going on. I mean, he messed up the CM to Inch conversion. (( Not a typo. SlammO asked what an inch was and in his explanation Fastjack missed a decimal point and it was commented on in the book itself)). Said 25cm in an inch.

Might seem small and if it was some of the others, no big deal. Ha ha. but it's Fastjack. Coupled with the other handfull of things... somethings up. I just hope it's not a bug thing. if he's turning into a bug or possessed by a bug... ugg. yuck. Thing is, the way I sporadically read, other than the Cm thing in Dirty tricks, I can't point out a list of things. I've just noticed them as I've read the past few days. lol. Like I said, it's been enough to where it's standing out.

It'd be interesting of that net ghost of Captain Chaos might be trying to talk through him, but there's nothing really to point to that.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 10 2013, 07:52 PM

Maybe he's just fine and the shadows are getting to you

Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 10 2013, 09:20 PM

Maybe running personafixes now for whatever reason?

Posted by: hermit Feb 10 2013, 10:46 PM

I'm thinking http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/01/11/farewell-to-scott-schletz-aka-wolf/ may be happening to Jack.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 10 2013, 11:55 PM

I hope not... that'd truly suck. Imagine how much damage he could do to the Runner community.

And you just know he'd start with Devgrrl. And I actually like her.

Posted by: Bull Feb 11 2013, 12:13 AM

*grabs popcorn and sits down to watch the thread*

Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 11 2013, 12:30 AM

If it is Captain Chaos talking through him, do we get a hand over hand hacking scene, with some Unchained Melody playing on synthguitars?

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 11 2013, 02:45 AM

Right.

So this is how they're going to do away with hacking via commlink - not some kind of mega security thing, just making it generally a really bad idea to go into the matrix via SimSense, without some pretty beefy protection between your brain and these ..... "e-Shedim", or whatever they wind up being called.

Instead, you're going to need to have a largely hardware filter between your brain, and the matrix - which means a larger physical device. Going Hot VR, maybe going VR at all, is going to be given some of the same risks that going Astral while unguarded: "Something Bad™ could move in while you're not at home".

...

The bugger of it is, even if I just guessed EXACTLY correct, and even if I swore up and down, 'till I was blue in the face ... folks like Bull who're "in the know", won't tell me before 5E happens. Damn you all! ;D

(NOTE: if it actually goes down that way, just remember ... I called it first. ^_^ )

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 11 2013, 02:51 AM

If it actually goes that way, I'm going to have to vomit and scream "RUINED FOREVER!" Because that's retarded.

Posted by: tsuyoshikentsu Feb 11 2013, 03:03 AM

Kinda with Shadowdragon on this one.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 11 2013, 04:32 AM

Thanks for that image, Stephen...and I was all set to join Bull with the popcorn and a nice cold beverage until you trotted that one out.

Posted by: nylanfs Feb 11 2013, 04:35 AM

Could be some Snowcrash type of lingui-hacking

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 11 2013, 04:37 AM

So here's the thing. You and Bull clearly know the answer.

How long till --we-- know the answer? (Roughly)

Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 11 2013, 04:44 AM

Somebody had to do it...I just got here first.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 11 2013, 05:06 AM

Soonish. I wish I had a more definitive answer for you, but at the moment that's the best that I've got.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 11 2013, 06:12 AM

That's about the best I could hope for. "Soonish" is much better than "Not too soon" or "A long while off"

Thanks man.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 11 2013, 06:19 AM

Why ... because it makes hacking/decking more dangerous in itself, even while probing cautiously and quietly, for anyone too stubborn to buy the newly-requisite hardware? *shrug*

Posted by: Jaid Feb 11 2013, 06:58 AM

i don't think it has anything to do with making hacking more dangerous (incidentally, hacking is plenty dangerous if you are hacking something important enough), or suddenly needing new gear.

i suspect it has a *lot* more to do with the fact that it sounds really dumb, at least from what i've seen of it so far.

i'm hoping it's not as stupid as it is starting to look. i would really, really, really like for it to actually make sense, and be something interesting instead of something that makes me cringe every time i think about it.

but... right now, that's not what it's looking like. right now, it's looking like someone was like "hey, you know what would be awesome?!?! MATRIX GHOSTS!!!! they should totally, like, steal people's bodies, just because they can and they're super-duper-mega angry and vengeful! this totally makes sense and doesn't come off as complete BS in any way whatsoever!"... and then everyone else somehow agreed with that person.

(like i said, i really hope what it looks like to me is not an accurate portrayal of what's going on... please, please, please prove me wrong. i really would love to be wrong about this one).

Posted by: hermit Feb 11 2013, 10:01 AM

I'm sorta afraid of that, too.

Posted by: Smirnov Feb 11 2013, 12:07 PM

I thought it was more about him going senile.
As far as I understand, Leonization fixes your body, but not your mind.



After Riser used phrase 'Street Rage and his crew' four times in one comment, I'm ready to accept anything as a plain typo or poor speech on jackpointers' side. After all, all these conversations they have are supposed to be voice, no?

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 11 2013, 01:01 PM

If it weren't for Patrick being all confirmatory I would just have assumed that Bull was being his usual devious self and try to stir something up

Posted by: Smirnov Feb 11 2013, 01:37 PM

No arguing here, something is happening to FastJack. In Dirty Tricks he is almost outright accused of not being able to get his shit together. Whether it's caused by old age or by something more menacing is yet to be seen, but my bet is that Jack would be around for some time at least. It's open secret now that in fifth there will be decks and deckers again, in one of the hidden fictions Jack mentions that he made some hardware for hackers to run the new matrix. The obvious conclusion is that decks would be hand-made, at least for the time being, and Jack is one of the guys to hand them to hackers.

Posted by: hermit Feb 11 2013, 01:39 PM

There's a clear distinction between the two?

Posted by: ds1138 Feb 11 2013, 01:45 PM

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Psychophysical+parallelism

Of course, this question is pretty much answered in a game where your mind can leave your physical body and travel to neighboring realities made out of thoughts.

Posted by: hermit Feb 11 2013, 01:51 PM

Dementia is a disease of the brain, not the aura (not even in Shadowrun).

Posted by: Blade Feb 11 2013, 01:52 PM

Fastjack is - in a way - the "narrator" of SR4.
Him not being able to get his shit together is a metaphor of the way the SR4 line has gone.

Posted by: hermit Feb 11 2013, 01:58 PM

Well put, Blade.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 11 2013, 02:06 PM

That possibility still exists. It's a game about double-crosses and drek like that. I could be lying.

Posted by: Smirnov Feb 11 2013, 02:10 PM

Augmentation has Leonization, Lifespan Extension and Physical Vigor as three separate treatments. Leonization specifically states that it revert physical age to ~21 years (which is rather strange as physical prime is more likely around 25-27), while Physical Vigor treats 'felt age' and other 'side-effects of ages'.
Of course none of them seem to cure any diseases, which are the case of senility. I imagine a lot of old-age youths should be suffering from age diseases, especially if they underwent Leonization late in the years.

Just to prove my words, the quote from Augmentation:

Posted by: hermit Feb 11 2013, 03:20 PM

Ah, thanks. So you'd need gene therapy to deal with Demenita. Has some fun implications actually.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 11 2013, 07:50 PM

What what? Open secret about decks and deckers again??

Posted by: Iduno Feb 11 2013, 08:06 PM

Better or worse than a worm named Retcon going around changing the Matrix so commlinks are no longer able to hack in it?

Although something that hilariously hamfisted might be forgiven as part of the 80's style still in the game.

Posted by: Jaid Feb 11 2013, 09:36 PM

oddly enough, i would prefer the worm named retcon. at least i could get a bit of a laugh out of it.

that said, there's a really easy way to justify decks.

normal person needs maybe 2-3 programs (in SR terms; eg scan and edit and maybe a virtual personality or reality filter for most people) running at a time, and doesn't care about rating that much (basically, as long as their favourite games don't slow down).

a hacker would almost certainly prefer to have at least a dozen or so just to be covered in case something nasty happens, if not more, and at the highest rating possible. joe schmoe simply doesn't have the same level of needs in terms of what their hardware and software can do, and regardless of how much computing power you can get into something the size of a commlink, you will obviously be able to get *more* into something the size of a cyberdeck.

but really, there's a very simple solution: hey, look, we can totally make programs more powerful, but they take up so many resources that we need more computing power to run them. hey, remember when everyone needed a cyberdeck? let's market them as retro, and cram it all into a framework that looks just like an old cyberdeck? the kids will think it's new and cool, and the adults will be brought in by nostalgia".

problem solved, without any ridiculous nonsense.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 11 2013, 10:54 PM

Basic User Suite has Analyze, Browse, Command, and Edit.

I suppose, theoretically, you could build R0 versions of those programs into every Commlink. *shrug*

Posted by: Smirnov Feb 11 2013, 11:05 PM

With the new Matrix (2.1) you still use your commlink to browse the net, but to hack you need a deck once more

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 11 2013, 11:21 PM

I was asking where/how it's known what's gonna be in SR5. I haven't heard about it.

Posted by: hermit Feb 11 2013, 11:27 PM

The minigame on shadowruntabletop.com. A relevant thread can be found http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=38247.

Posted by: Jaid Feb 11 2013, 11:36 PM

actually, looking back on it, i think your IP (if it's a legal one, ie the kind that shadowrunners don't use) provides access to those features, so you don't even need them on your commlink. i'd have to re-read that section of unwired to be sure though.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 12 2013, 12:43 AM

What if long term use of Matrix personas eventually has them becoming kinda... independant?


-k

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 12 2013, 01:25 AM

Whoa......

I've gotta like... sit down and digest some of that....

Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 12 2013, 03:26 AM

Now that you mention it, I do recall reading in one of the books (Unwired, I think), that all commlinks have the equivalent of a rating zero Scan program built into them automatically.

Maybe add Purge to that list, though, since that's the program that gets rid of virii and such. Maybe also swap it for Analyze, or stack it as a combo package.

Posted by: Critias Feb 12 2013, 06:47 AM

Perfect response.

Posted by: ggodo Feb 12 2013, 08:43 AM

Back to the topic, Jack is Eliohan.

Discuss.

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 12 2013, 08:50 AM

*blink*

Eliohan, or Cerberus?

Because with either, that would just up the silly even more.

(nvm if Celedyr is involved...)

Posted by: hermit Feb 12 2013, 09:16 AM

Nope. Jack was around long before Dragonhunt.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 02:17 PM

Not needed... The suite operates as a single program.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 02:18 PM

Rating 1 Scan, Actually.

Posted by: hermit Feb 12 2013, 02:28 PM

Rating 0 programs won't do you much good. And yes, the basic suites, as program suites, act as one program and hence, take up one slot.

Posted by: ggodo Feb 13 2013, 03:02 AM

Maybe I should rephrase it. Jack is now also Eliohan.

It's crazy, but Jack getting wierd began after the anonymous poster began showing up, and there's been a few hints that the anonymous guy might be Eliohan/Cerberus. It seems possible. I'd rather Fastjack is just getting old, because it's such a great end to his story. I'm just saying, if this is right, I called it.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 13 2013, 03:55 AM

As someone on the tail end of that "physical prime" of 25-27, I'd very much rather revert to 21 (or younger; hell, 17 should do) and retain more adult faculty.

Posted by: hermit Feb 13 2013, 09:31 AM

... who couldn't so much as type on a cellphone before Transys played with his brain. Makes no sense, given that Jack was a top-end hacker (decker) with a long history of computer crime in 2050.


Hints? Where? The Editing-Error-to-Feature poster is a Dawkins operative.

Posted by: Halinn Feb 13 2013, 11:25 PM

I think what ggodo is implying is that Eliohan just did a (partial) mind possession on ol' Jack.

Posted by: hermit Feb 13 2013, 11:34 PM

Brainhacks? That's more plausible. They'll be in 5E anyway.

Posted by: Jaid Feb 14 2013, 12:45 AM

you kidding me? brainhacks have been in the game in some form or other for quite a while. i never played 2nd edition, but i'm pretty sure a few of the published adventures from that time included the possibility (there was one that involved people using personafixes that were so powerful the users stopped being themselves while they ran the personafix... i could be wrong and that was SR3, but then again i could be wrong and that was SR1).

the PAB has been around at least since 3rd edition. and psychotropic IC has been around for quite a while too, i suspect since 1st edition actually.

brainhacks are nothing new. the only new thing would be calling it brainhacking.

Posted by: hermit Feb 14 2013, 01:52 AM

Brainhacks are neither. Brainhacks are instantaneous hacks of the brain. Like hardware hacks in SR4, only it's the brain.

The only thing that comes close is a patient technomancer with a blackout CF who threads themselves a new psychotropic action every time they hit a victim (who probably is unconscous).

Posted by: Jaid Feb 14 2013, 05:20 AM

no, not really. the only difference is that the technomancer can choose a different hack each time. a regular hacker can brainhack in an instant as well. if you give said hacker sufficient resources to store a crudload of programs, the hacker can also change the hack each time.

this really isn't new.

also, i find it a bit silly that you're suddenly moving the goal posts around, "oh, brainhacks have to be instant, or they're not brainhacks".

ummm... sure. if you say so. [sarcasm] because nothing in hacking computers is *ever* an extended test, or takes hours to do. nope. nothing at all. absolutely not a single thing. definitely not hacking into a system, or trying to track down specific data, or anything else like that. [/sarcasm]

Posted by: hermit Feb 14 2013, 08:53 AM

Sure, if you cluster 100 DR6 commlinks you might just do if you have half your programs with ergonomic options. That's about as plausible as a nuclear powered aircraft (which has never been built due to being an overexpensive and useless design). But anything to feel like you're right, right?


A hack CAN be instantaneous. Sure, you can probe and prod and if your target isn't moving and you need to re-establish connection every few seconds, you might do. That is not the nature of hacking as SR4 wants to present it; that would be brute force hacking without excessive probing.


So everything with an extended test is a hack, and everything else isn't?

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 14 2013, 08:59 AM

Let's not be snarky.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 02:08 PM

PAB has been around since 1st Edition, as have Personafixes (Shadowbeat).

Posted by: hermit Feb 14 2013, 03:34 PM

But that is not brainhacking. It's nothing someone can do to you just over the Matrix. PAB is a poor man's memory manipulation spell - it never worked as well, took hours and hours and required the victim physically present in the PAB machine. Similarily, personafixes hae to be physically present in someone's datajack (at least in 1-3, in 4 you might be able to run one in case you hack someone's commlink for an Admin account).

Neither is brain hacking as displayed in, say, Ghost in the shell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 04:44 PM

And yet a Personafix is an instantaneous "Hack" when applied; it just requires access. *shrug*
Have to go back and watch Ghost in the Shell... Been a while.

Posted by: hermit Feb 14 2013, 05:00 PM

If you bust open a computer case and take the HDD, you also got all the data on it. Doesn't make you a hacker.

With Ghost in the Shell, I am referring to the Standalone complex series; should have stated that clearer. The first season is all about brainhacks.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 14 2013, 05:02 PM

4th edition Personafixes, like all BTLs, can be administered over the Matrix as long as the subject has a sim module.

GitS has pretty much EVERYONE with cranial commlinks with sim modules.

Hm. Hack a guard's commlink, and if he has a sim module attached, upload "Hello New Friend" personafix. Nasty.




-k

Posted by: hermit Feb 14 2013, 05:12 PM

Yup. Or thread the "new friend" option as a mancer.

Posted by: Blade Feb 14 2013, 05:16 PM

Needs a HOTsim sim module, which is illegal and that most guards probably won't have.
It will work on hackers and chipheads but not on the majority of the population.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 14 2013, 05:20 PM

Technomancers can force people with no commlinks into hot-sim VR... Now imagine a TM running around hugging guards uploading "new friend" in the process...
*blinks*
Holy shit, I've invented the ultimate hippie

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 14 2013, 05:21 PM

Yeah, though I hazard a guess that a number of regular folks you might run across modify their sim modules for "hot" use since it's easy to do.

Much like folks today jailbreak their smartphones for increased functionality.


There's reasons why folks fear Technomancers. And not all of those reasons are irrational.


-k

Posted by: X-Kalibur Feb 14 2013, 06:31 PM

I'm going with sundowners. Although I suppose we'd have to check the timestamps on his out of character posts and compare the times. But really, at his age, with that much expose to the matrix and IC over the years, who knows what sort of number has been done on his brain?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 06:47 PM

Indeed...

Ahh... Have yet to watch that one. It is on my list. Thanks

Posted by: Halinn Feb 14 2013, 06:51 PM

Works for Mungo, and he's pretty awesome.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Feb 14 2013, 06:57 PM

At least until the ice cream truck gets restocked.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 14 2013, 06:59 PM

That's what Mungo got his mooks for

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 14 2013, 07:03 PM

I can think of at least two different type of brain hacks. There's direct brain hacks and there's virus based brain hacks.

Posted by: Jaid Feb 14 2013, 08:55 PM

if you want to change the entire personality, psychotropic IC is the wrong solution. it isn't the setting's fault that people in another series all have built-in hot-sim modules specifically so that somebody could write a story with lots of brain hacking via personafix. if anything, it's completely ridiculous to presume that everyone would go for that sort of thing.


the claim was made that if it wasn't instantaneous, it isn't a brainhack. it's not my problem that someone wanted to suddenly redefine brainhacking to exclude anything that takes more than a couple of actions.


of course not. hacking has absolutely nothing to do with how long it takes, which is exactly the point i was making.

i just find it silly that anyone would be like "oh, brainhacks are totally new to SR5" when they've been around basically since the setting began. i find it even more ridiculous that the attempt was made to suddenly change the goal posts and redefine brainhacking to only count if it's using minimal resources, doesn't take a lot of time, works on everyone indiscriminately regardless of equipment involved, and so forth.

brainhacking in some form or another has been around since SR1. in fact, extremely rapid complete personality replacement featured in one of those early shadowrun adventures i mentioned. complete with new skills and abilities, as i recall.

Posted by: Epicedion Feb 14 2013, 09:34 PM

Brainhacking doesn't even make any sense unless you're talking about bypassing parts of the meat brain with some other data/processing store. Rewriting all the physical connections in the brain sounds pretty far-fetched, so you've got to be talking about someone with some implanted system for this to work.

Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 14 2013, 09:47 PM

Maybe he's got a piece of Deus in his wetware, and the AI's finally starting to assert control?

Posted by: hermit Feb 14 2013, 11:25 PM

Your point being? You can just define "brainhack" as fits you because Shadowrun isn't as stupid as stupid Anime is? Sorry, that makes no sense.


Since you are doing it, of course it is.


Which they haven't unless you totally redefine the terms "brain hack", "hack" and probably "brain".


A personafix, yeah. Which relates to hacking as breaking open a computer physically and taking out the HDD does.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 12:31 AM

See, I would argue this point here. a Personafix IS indeed a Brain Hack. As is PAB programming. The fact that it takes a bit of time for the PAB Programming makes no nevermind. A Personafix is a fast hack, so to speak, since it overwrites the brain with its own programming while it is active. Personafix have the fun distinction of being easlily done beforehand.

Posted by: Jaid Feb 15 2013, 08:59 AM

ok, so explain what a brainhack is. good luck working out a definition for which none of the examples above qualify without you deliberately using very specific wording to specifically exclude the examples of brainhacking that exist in shadowrun.

it is possible, and has been for an extended period of time (since 1st edition, apparently), to use a machine to gain access to someone's mind and modify the information contained therein. it is likewise possible to use a machine to read information (extracting information is generally limited to the moment at which the device is connected, mind you, but that's what a simrig does). i mean, seriously, here's a line from the description of a PAB: "Programmable ASIST Biofeedback—as
the technique is known—is far more than traditional brainwashing;
it is the clinically precise reprogramming of a metahuman being."

what more do you want? a giant flashing neon sign complete with loudspeakers thundering at 120 decibels that it's brainhacking?

now, i have a hard time looking at that and seeing how that is somehow not brainhacking. but again, i'm curious to hear your definition that excludes the things we've mentioned.

Posted by: SirFozzie Feb 16 2013, 04:48 AM

Think I've found a good clue on what's going on.

Conversation between Puck and Jack (Clutch of Dragons, page 28)

Jack's either manifesting some technomancer like abilities, somehow is cohabitating with a technomancer e-ghost (late in life, yeah, I know), or he's been inside Mistuhama.

Puck says "at least a part of you does (know I'm right)", when he speaks of the Denver Data Haven/Nexus being in the pocket of Mitsuhama (he states that the Denver Matrix "tastes" of Mitsuhama output, and said that he was surprised that the Nexus hadn't done anything to do about it, but then again, that would require them to be independent)

Posted by: hermit Feb 16 2013, 02:40 PM

That would be your problem then.


It being doable remotely, over the Matrix? But nah, that's not a brainhack, that's only a special case, because otheriwse Jaid could not argue on the internet.


Yeah. See Scott Schletz.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 16 2013, 02:50 PM

You have an awfully narrow specific definition of "brainhack" when it's more or less a made up word.




-k

Posted by: Jaid Feb 17 2013, 04:47 AM

i'm not saying being able to do it remotely makes it not brainhacking, any more than i ever said anything other than an extended test couldn't be regular hacking.

but just because you can't do it anywhere, anytime, with any equipment you feel like, on any target you feel like, doesn't make it not brainhacking. you hacked their brain.

can we agree that we mean something along the lines of this definition of hacking (as opposed to the kind of hacking which uses sharp or sharp-ish objects; that form of brainhacking has been around for thousands of years):

"2. Informal
a. To write or refine computer programs skillfully.
b. To use one's skill in computer programming to gain illegal or unauthorized access to a file or network"

now, obviously, this is modified slightly by the fact that you're hacking someone's brain.

can you refine someone's brain programming skillfully? yes. yes you can.
can you use your skills to gain "illegal or unauthorized access" to someone's brain "files" or "network"? yes. yes you can.

or what if we use this definition of hacking:

"(Electronics & Computer Science / Computer Science) to manipulate a computer program skilfully, esp, to gain unauthorized access to another computer system"

can you manipulate some form of tools skillfully, especially to gain unauthorized access to someone's brain? why yes. you can do that, too.

how about:

"hack - fix a computer program piecemeal until it works; "I'm not very good at hacking but I'll give it my best""

can you fix someone's brain piecemeal until it works (using computers and such to do the work, no less)? sure can. that's in the setting too.

now, as it turns out, there are a ridiculous number of different ways the word "hack" can be used. so i feel compelled to check here:

you are referring to the use of hack to mean manipulating computers/programs to do what you want to do, not necessarily using the approved/authorized way, and not necessarily with the permission of the person who would otherwise control the computer/program, right?

i mean, you're not talking about, say, "unskilled person - a person who lacks technical training", or "hack - a tool (as a hoe or pick or mattock) used for breaking up the surface of the soil", or "hack - a car driven by a person whose job is to take passengers where they want to go in exchange for money" or "hack - a politician who belongs to a small clique that controls a political party for private rather than public ends" by any chance? or one of the several other possible definitions?

because unless you're talking about one of those, i really don't see how you can argue that the ability to essentially "hack" someone's brain doesn't exist in shadowrun. the original "hackers" were people who used a bloody tape recorder to fool the telephone system computer into thinking they'd paid for a call when they hadn't. there are even "social hacks" where you manage to fool a person into giving you login information or sensitive information you can use to exploit a system (like what kind of hardware software they are running, etc).

if you can't figure out some way to use the multitude of tools available to you to "hack" someone's brain without it being instantaneous and via the matrix, that just means you haven't managed to work out the part where you get around the stuff people put in place to prevent it from happening because it's unauthorized... not that it is impossible to do so. a hack where you have to sneak into the facility and spend some time cracking into the local systems not less of a hack just because you couldn't do it over the matrix in a short amount of time.

you could kidnap the target. you could sneak in while they're asleep, apply a hot sim module, and then get to work. you could fool them into using a device attached to a hot sim module. you could use what limited tools are available even when they're using a cold sim module. you could fool them into showing up for a therapy session where a PAB is used on them (and you could even get *paid* by them to do it). you could use a technomancer and drag someone into their resonance node, where they may or may not be able to have PAB software running (so far as i can tell, it's GM discretion at best), but where they can definitely apply all kinds of other forms of control on the person. i'm sure there are plenty of ways i haven't even thought of yet, but which could be used, if you actually get off your butt and plan the hack instead of wanting it to fall into your lap like manna from heaven (which actually didn't drop into anybody's lap either, truth be told). not all of these methods are equally subtle. not all of them are equally easy for everyone (as will often be the case with difficult tasks in general, having a pornomancer friend can make this sort of thing a lot easier to do). but they exist. it is possible to make the hack happen, in spite of the fact that most targets will not be sitting on the matrix with a hot sim module running, with a cranial PAB unit installed.

Posted by: hermit Feb 17 2013, 09:59 AM

So you're saying I can upgrade and repair programs and devices using the Hacking skill? Awesome! No, wait, it doesn't to that, it's only good for Informal (b), and even there it is rather limited because it is using illicit programs to that end, not programming per se (because different skill).

Maybe I should clarify that I was thinking in the (reasonably well defined) limits of SR4 rules, which reasonably well define what is what in this setting, not the impossibly broad general definition of hacking. Of course, this being essentially a rules decision, I just took that as a given.

Posted by: Wakshaani Feb 17 2013, 06:30 PM

Well, if we could set the "True Scotsman" debate aside for just a bit? I'd be ever so thankful.

Posted by: Jaid Feb 18 2013, 01:28 AM

ok. so tell me then... if i infiltrate a corporate facility that is cut off from the matrix, and then attempt to gain access to the corporation's systems while pretending to be a regular employee over the course of several hours...

is it hacking, or is it not hacking? because the complaints you've raised about the time involved and the requirement for direct access would imply that as far as you're concerned, that isn't hacking. but i have a hard time believing you actually think that way when it comes to computers. which is why it confuses me that you would think that way when it comes to brainhacking.

Posted by: hermit Feb 18 2013, 10:01 AM

The infiltration? No.


It's hacking as soon as you gain access to the computer via a network or direct connection (in that case: why?), using hacking skills. In case of an isolated system, it is often more prudent to just remove the data storage for Johnson's computer forensics expertes to play with (infiltrate a corp, steal a datachip), which is not hacking, as established above. Infiltrating a secure, off the grid facility and then suddenly attacking it via the network it's not on is actually a strange way to go about a datasteal.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Feb 18 2013, 06:54 PM

So your basically arguing semantics. Because it doesn't use any of the skills in the hacking skill group...
So what is it when your hacking a system and editing access logs/data feeds? your using edit, which uses the computer skill...not a hacking skill...

or when you hack by targeting a system with a virus...that you made yourself using the software skill...not a hacking skill

and any of your personafix/PAB programs rely heavily on the software to actually make meaningful changes to the target "system"

Posted by: Jaid Feb 18 2013, 07:02 PM

you're on the corp site because they have a network that is not on the public one. you still have to hack in, unless you've got legitimate login information. i can't help but suspect at this point you're being deliberately obtuse, though... you seem to keep on coming up with these utter BS scenarios that you insert into the ones i've described, because the ones i describe are inconvenient for you.

but i believe we've established that requiring direct access does not determine whether or not something is hacking.
and i believe we've also established that being instant or not does not determine whether or not something is hacking.

and yet, somehow, because you have to gain direct access to a person, and you cannot do it instantly, it isn't hacking.

you know what, at this point, i'm done with the discussion. i'm pretty confident at this point that:

- you've made up your mind to stubbornly cling to your point of view, no matter what.
- anyone following along who doesn't have the exact same mindset as you will be able to tell that brainhacking has in fact been in shadowrun since 1st edition.

i've no reason to continue, and you're now just wasting my time.

Posted by: hermit Feb 18 2013, 09:47 PM

Wow. The lack of self-reflection in this post is hilarious and amazing.


Who am I to criticise people for their beliefs?


I'm tired of having to explain. It's always me explaining this, you coming up with bullshit scenarios, straw men and baseless claims, and then want me to reiterate what I already told you several times. Scroll up and read, or don't.


Good for you. So am I. Of course, long posts staing you're done discussing and then keeping on discussing how this is wasting your time, is, again, hilarious.


The system's already hacked then?

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 18 2013, 11:38 PM

Guys, can we perhaps table the brain hack thing? I hope to have more speculation about Fastjack and not have the thread locked.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 19 2013, 02:59 PM

Let's presume Fastjack is on his way out either because of nature taking it's toll, the ghost of captain chaos, dragons or whatever... Who would replace him?
Who would inherent Jackpoint?
Who would sit down and tell us about the things that passed?
Who would be the goddamn best hackdecker there bloody well is!
There you go, plenty to speculate

Posted by: Halinn Feb 19 2013, 03:27 PM

As has been discussed in other threads already, Mungo is perfect for the role. Mungo iz 1337 hackr.

Posted by: ChromeZephyr Feb 19 2013, 07:17 PM

I would laugh if Netcat took over, because Clockwork's brain would explode.

Posted by: hermit Feb 19 2013, 08:05 PM

Shadowrun 5 - After Dragons. An exciting new supplement about Technomancers, the new Supersues.

Posted by: Neurosis Feb 19 2013, 08:08 PM

My initial response to this post almost contained a Lady Gaga reference. And then I realized it was a Lady Gaga reference.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 23 2013, 06:22 AM

Hermit, you do realize that when most people hear the term "brainhack", they aren't thinking about the Shadowrun Hacking skill?

It's a made up term anyhow. Your definition of the word isn't the only possible one.



-k

Posted by: CanRay Feb 23 2013, 06:31 AM

"Mungo, hack his brain." "Cantz, no haz Commlink in himz." "No, Mungo... Have you forgotten your monoblade?" "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... MUNGO HACK!!!"

Posted by: Jaid Feb 23 2013, 08:35 AM

i really wouldn't bother trying to have this discussion with him. it didn't work before. i can't fathom why it would suddenly start working now.

Posted by: hermit Feb 23 2013, 11:11 AM

Mh, flamebait.

Posted by: binarywraith Feb 23 2013, 01:43 PM

Very, very retarded. I'd rather write it off to 'Jack having brain cancer from too many years of slotting questionably shielded plugs into his datajack than have even more absurdly annoying possession crap.

What would that make, four major antagonists in the habit of possessing bodies?

Posted by: Halinn Feb 23 2013, 09:44 PM

CanRay, please get in touch with CGL to get Mungo canonized. He's both the hero we need, and the one we deserve.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 23 2013, 10:01 PM

It still cracks me up that they canonized Drop bears.

Posted by: toturi Feb 23 2013, 10:44 PM

One day, there will be warform Drop Bears Red Samurai! With FA Panther Assault Cannons!

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 23 2013, 11:18 PM

Seconded.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 24 2013, 12:46 AM

Might have something to do with that a dumpshocker wrote it

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 24 2013, 12:50 AM

Oh I'm not complaining. I just think it's funny. I was in Running Wild Last night looking up Techno-critters, and happened across the Drop bear write up. Cracked up a bit.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 24 2013, 12:52 AM

You know that I didn't do that, right? That they were there before, and I just got to use them for that section? Believe me, I'd take credit for it if I could, but I can't.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 24 2013, 12:53 AM

Then who did?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 24 2013, 03:33 AM

Drop bears first appeared in Target: Awakened Lands, IIRC. I can't recall who wrote that particular chunk of the Australia writeup, though. I can poke around and find out if it's really important.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 24 2013, 04:20 AM

Using the Optional Rule for More Powerful Swarms:

Base Cost for a Drop Bear (Using Super secret formulae) 37,500
Warform Abilities: Attribute Enhancement (Agility), Skill Enhancement (Shadowing)
Random Side Effect of Breeding - Gestalt Consciousness

Warform Cost: 97,500 each

12 Warform Dropbears in a Rating 3 Mischief -- Gain optional power Sapience

Advanced Training with Willpower of 5, means a x35 cost multiplier

Net Cost: 40,950,000 for a crack team of Red Samurai Dropbears, gear not included.

Proof that I sometimes have far too much time on my hands...

Posted by: Umidori Feb 24 2013, 09:48 AM

Wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold the phone.

What's this about "optional power Sapience"?

*dives for his books*

~Umi

Posted by: Umidori Feb 24 2013, 11:29 AM

Okay, so points against my notion - 1) it's an optional rule and 2) the additional powers are determined by the GM. But! The ruling specifically allows Sapience, so my notion is at least possible.

But there is one more crucial consideration - how Essence is handled with Swarms. (Yes, I'm breaking the Special Infected rules again. Fun, isn't it?)

So let's say you have a swarm of bees at Rating 6, with the Sapience power, which makes them a valid target of Essence Drain. You drain up to 3 points of Essence (but no more, as the Rating of the Swarm will drop with the Essence, and you only get one power per 3 points of Rating). Since bees go from eggs to full adults in less than a month, with proper management the swarm ought to replenish itself in time for your next monthly feeding.

Voila. Renewable Essence that you can keep in a small greenhouse. Keep two hives for redundancy, or just to stay ahead of the feeding curve.

~Umi

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 24 2013, 11:53 AM

Beware the sapient Africanized bees.

Posted by: hermit Feb 24 2013, 11:57 AM

There was a movie about this once ...

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 24 2013, 12:25 PM

That sounds like a magnificent plan that could never in a thousand years go wrong!

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 24 2013, 07:08 PM

... and the HMHVV that makes you a vampire mutates, leaps across the species gap, and you end up with a swarm of Africanised vampire bees. They go around, pulling essence out of anything they like (people included), and .... what, make Honey out of it?

;D

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 24 2013, 07:56 PM

Oh, this took an interesting turn....

Posted by: hermit Feb 24 2013, 08:05 PM

Why not combine the ideas? The bees and the vampire enter a symbiosis - the vampire grants them all the vampire's powers by way of infection (even Renfield powers would make them terrifying), and they collect essence that feeds the vampire.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080206222717/metalgear/images/b/bc/The_Pain.jpg

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 24 2013, 08:14 PM

Never has a better argument for the mass deployment of fuel-air explosives been made.

Posted by: Umidori Feb 24 2013, 10:06 PM

But is it feasible? And will you cruelly be taking an axe and/or wooden stake to it for 5E now that I've pointed it out?

~Umi

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 24 2013, 10:13 PM

Well, they're Sapient, yes, but it's making the emotional connection to them to drain the Essence that I'm curious about. Insects, even sentient/sapient swarms of them, are so freakin' foreign in terms of mindset ... I'm not sure how that would work.

I don't intend to snatch it away cruelly, if that's what you're asking. I'm just trying to figure out how it would fraggin' work....

Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 24 2013, 10:16 PM

With sugar water?

Posted by: hermit Feb 24 2013, 10:17 PM

Doesn't Animal Control magic do exactly that?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 24 2013, 10:21 PM

Yeah, but once they're Sapient, most Animal Control magic doesn't work. Or maybe I'm misremembering; I'm fighting a deadline, a balky washing machine, and babysitting the kids while I should be writing. I technically need to turn the network connection off, but this is kind of interesting, if not at all germane to what I'm working on at the moment.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 24 2013, 10:41 PM

Vampires can be Insect Shamans.

Possibly even, BEE shamans.

Posted by: CanRay Feb 24 2013, 11:02 PM

Any proper Vampire Insect Shaman would follow Mosquito.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 24 2013, 11:15 PM

... or Flea. Or Tick. Or Bedbug.

Unless, of course, they were an Insect Shaman first, then became a Vampire. Then they could be anything at all.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 24 2013, 11:18 PM

Uhm guys... Bees are extinct in the sixth world

Posted by: hermit Feb 24 2013, 11:19 PM

Not Dante's Bees.

Posted by: CanRay Feb 24 2013, 11:57 PM

All we need to do is find some that got trapped in tree sap, and then get a cloning program started.

Posted by: Umidori Feb 25 2013, 01:57 AM

Wait, what? How did bees go extinct? And how the fuzz does plant life continue, then?

Well, technically other insects can polinate flowers now that I stop and think about it. Wasps, flies, et cetera.

But it doesn't HAVE to be bees (although then you get tasty, tasty honey!). You could have any kind of Swarm you like. Pick something social that reproduces quickly. Ants, termites, beetles, whatever.

~Umi

Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 25 2013, 03:12 AM

All ~20,000 species of bees went extinct?

Posted by: binarywraith Feb 25 2013, 03:15 AM

Yeah, no they're not. They even exist in Awakened forms. Siberian Bees are bastards that get to throw lightning around when they swarm.

I ruined several of my PCs' year by having their J hire them to move a hive of those things a couple miles.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 25 2013, 03:19 AM

There's reference in one of the books that 'Honeybees' died out. I'm not sure if they STAID dead. (( We see the threat know, you gotta think alot of places stockpiled the DNA)).

I forget where I've read it but it was an off hand comment from a poster in one of the books. Running Wild or Paranormal animals of NA or something. ((Might be in the Clutch of Dragon book where they're talking about Azlan's food production getting taken out and them being in deep crap.))

I do apoligise for not having a page, but there IS reference some where to SOMETHING about bees dieing off. I can say I remember reading it too. Just not the details or where.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 25 2013, 03:44 AM

Page 8 Running Wild

"The losses are not limited to obscure insects or rare species of frog. We have lost over 100 bird species that we know of. The once thriving polar bear has been reduced to a zoo attraction along with hundreds of other animals both known and unknown. Honey bees are no different. The as-yet unexplained ‘Colony Collapse Syndrome’ accelerated in 2012 and again in 2061. Albert Einstein once posited, “If we were ever to see the extinction of the honey bee, humankind would follow four years thereafter.” That has not happened, but the food web collapse resulting from the continued destruction of so many species has created conditions for even more loss of life."

Posted by: hermit Feb 25 2013, 08:38 AM

Colony Collapse Syndrome causes a severe drop of numbers, but only among highly domesticated (European) bees. There're a number of realted species that could take over, though their honey yield is significantly lower and they're a lot harder to handle.

Posted by: Larsine Feb 25 2013, 01:26 PM

But most creatures with the essence drain power also need to digest something symbolic for the essence drain to work.

So the vampire would not be able to drain the essence from his swam of bees, since they do not have any metahuman blood, just like the ghoul would not be able to drain essence, without eating metahuman flesh.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 25 2013, 02:22 PM

Ummmmm. No. Essence Drain, and Feeding Restrictions are completely unrelated. *shrug*

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 25 2013, 02:55 PM

Im not going back to check but I think the original suggestion mentions Africanized honey bees that are listed as extinct in Running wild... Those glacial arcs are only for seeds no?

Posted by: hermit Feb 25 2013, 03:03 PM

Africanized honey bees (also affectionately known as 'killer bees') have, largely unsuccessfully, been hunted to extinction ever since they were released into the wild without proper testing in the 1970s. Nobody would shed a tear if those critters died out.

European (or Western) honey bees going extinct would be a lot harder, as this would blow up nearly all agriculture as it is now. fortunately, there are five other species of honey bee to fall back on, even if they are comparatively low-yield. But since their main job is pollinating everything, that's a small price to pay.

The glacial arcs are only for seeds though, yes. Because seeds can be stored near indefinitely (some seeds found in a whooly mammoth's fur bloomed when properly treated, and they were over 10.000 years old). Animals are not so durable.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 25 2013, 03:23 PM

It says honey bee (africanized, dwarf, giant) whether that's including or excluding other honey bees is hard to tell, the fluff text suggest as much.

Posted by: Larsine Feb 25 2013, 03:47 PM

Emphasis mine.

Posted by: hermit Feb 25 2013, 04:24 PM

Probably, though there are other honey bee species as well, and SR tech is sufficiently advanced to gengineer some honeybee like creature from other bees. All honey bees extinct makes flat out no sense though, since pollination in agriculture evidently still happens, and there are awakened honey bees around.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 25 2013, 04:56 PM

Royal Jelly ...!!

Also: only Wendigo are specifically required to symbolically consume a part of their victim, in order to drain essence, as I recall.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 25 2013, 05:00 PM

You forgot to also emphasize the "SOMETIMES." It is not ALWAYS. And the Actual Reasons for it - "To enhance the Passion or Terror of the Moment."
It is not a REQUIREMENT.

Posted by: Wakshaani Feb 25 2013, 05:51 PM

Might I ask where this is stated? It doesn't ring a bell (And, IIRC, conflicts with Feral Cities: Chicago), but, I confess that something might have slipped past me on the issue.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 25 2013, 06:33 PM

I cited the source.

Page 8 Running Wild

"The losses are not limited to obscure insects or rare species of frog. We have lost over 100 bird species that we know of. The once thriving polar bear has been reduced to a zoo attraction along with hundreds of other animals both known and unknown. Honey bees are no different. The as-yet unexplained ‘Colony Collapse Syndrome’ accelerated in 2012 and again in 2061. Albert Einstein once posited, “If we were ever to see the extinction of the honey bee, humankind would follow four years thereafter.” That has not happened, but the food web collapse resulting from the continued destruction of so many species has created conditions for even more loss of life."

Posted by: Larsine Feb 25 2013, 07:05 PM

The sometimes goes for the firste part of the sentence:

1) Sometimes the transfer of a token amount of physical material takes place

Then they give 2 examples:
2) such as blood for a vampire
3) or flesh for a wendigo

And then the first part of the sentence continues:

4) though this usually serves to enhance the passion or terror of the moment.

You can't move the "sometimes" to wherever you think it should be, just to prove your point.

Vampires need blood to drain blood for their Essence Drain to work.
Wendigos need metahuman flesh for their Essence rain to work.

And somtimes if works the same for other creatures.

So it would be natural, and make sense, to link the Essence Drain power to the dietary requirement if the creature has one.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 25 2013, 07:11 PM

Nowhere does it say that, in any book. You are, of course, free to do whatever you want, but please do not call that canon. *shrug*

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 25 2013, 07:54 PM

What it would not be, is Rules As Written. It'd be an interpretive act that extends those rules into territory not explicitly covered.

Which doesn't make it bad, just ... not RAW.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 25 2013, 07:54 PM

(( double post, oops ))

Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 25 2013, 08:45 PM

And to try and get this thread back on track, what does all of this have to do with Fastjack?

Posted by: hermit Feb 25 2013, 08:52 PM

Vampire Bees will rule the world. That's where Fastjack lives.

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 25 2013, 09:01 PM

.....ssoooooo.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxfZGkfByE

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Feb 25 2013, 09:12 PM

Canonically, I've seen it go both ways. Most vampires do seem to feed on blood at the same time as they drain Essence, but that's often just a convenience. Martin de Vries, in various pieces of fiction, has done it both ways, IIRC; I know he's drained Essence from other Infected without having to drink blood. Some vampires might not be capable of draining Essence without feeding on blood. Different writers have handled it different ways (including me, depending on the vampire in question). The need to feed on blood while draining Essence is most likely a psychological side-effect for some vamps.

That "sometimes" in the Essence Drain power description is pretty key. As a GM, I'd let it go either way, but I'd expect the player to be consistent. If he initially presents as needing to do both at the same time, then that's how it works for them until there's a good, in-game reason to change.

I'm just muddying things up, aren't I?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 25 2013, 09:17 PM

No worries, Patrick. Thank's for weighing in.

Posted by: Ixal Feb 26 2013, 12:24 AM

Something about Fastjack again, here the actual lines hermit mentioned on page 1.

And also Glitch's answer to that sounds interesting.


So it looks like the Jackpointers and Fasthjack know that something is wrong with him and that he loses control from time to time.

And the old man FastJack talks to at the beginning of Fractures? Considering to what is happening to FJ I think this person was not real but either a AM overlay of whatever is taking over FJ or just he going nuts Fight Club style. The way they talk about "our day" and "my day" seems strange.
But I guess I am telling you nothing new with that.