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Posted by: Makki Feb 12 2013, 08:39 AM

As a power gamer I'd take Synaptic Booster 3 for no cost with Genetic Heritage. However, there's no animal, mundane or paranormal, with 4 IPs, therefore technically this genetic coding is not available to science.

But what is?
SB 1? Cheetah Reflexes, probably fine.
SB 2? Piasma/Cerberus Hound/Gabriel Hound Reflex. Needs discussion, because these look like awakened IP boosts
Muscle Augmentation? Yes, thinking of bears and the like.
Muscle Toner >2? I couldn't actually find an animal with high agility...Can I augment my troll with Elven agility?
Suprathyroid Gland?
...

From a GM POV or a reasonable player POV, what can you let somebody get away with?

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 12 2013, 09:24 AM

Ehh, pretty much just the stuff from biotech, with the same essence cost. Thing is it's less likely to produce results, at higher cost and longer recoup times.

I'd see it for people that really --really-- --REALLY-- want to be a CAT girl, not just look like one. Where in you gotta kinda tilt your head a little. But hey. Party on.

Posted by: NiL_FisK_Urd Feb 12 2013, 11:39 AM

I let my players take everything that costs 45.000nY (cost of the most expensive genetech treatment) or less with genetic heritage.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 03:15 PM

Paracritters are not classed as animals in the sense of the rules, only mundane animals are.
and what are you getting at? from what I read there's no loophole, you want synaptic boosters you pay for synaptic boosters, nuyen and essence as normal... Only you're getting it from badger hormones instead of neural cord alterations.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 03:57 PM

Though I agree with you, the issue is getting Synaptic Boosters 3 for no Nuyen Cost through Genetic Heritage Quality.
At that point, who wouldn't.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 03:59 PM

Is that legal though?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 04:16 PM

Technically, yes. Since



And because Genetic Heritage allows ONE FREE TRANSGENIC ALTERATION (as in at no cost in Nuyen), it is entirely legal, if a bit of a dick move. *shrug*
I allow Synaptic Accelerators 1 through the Genetic Heritage Quality, but nothing more.

There is still some animosity here about such rulings, though. Lots of past threads have been done on it.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 04:24 PM

I'd make it a "convince me" scenario, I'm not unreasonable... But you better have an essay with your background ready

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 04:38 PM

"Convince Me" how? Transgenics exist, and all you need is a background where you have access to such things.
I have a Character (Ex-Mossad) who has Transgenic Mods (SA1 among them) and he is a pretty good character, though still far from being as capable as a Street Sam fully kitted out.

Now, Had I allowed him to get SA3, well... that would have been a different story indeed.
Some see nothing wrong with such things, and others are a bit more reserved in what they allow.

Posted by: Manunancy Feb 12 2013, 04:57 PM

One point to consider is the character's age - realisticaly, genetic heritage cao nly grant you something that was available as a post-birth genemod by the time the character was born (basicaly, mom or dad got it and passed it to the kid). which means if your char is, say a 50 years old elf, you can kiss the quality goodbye as the character was bron well before the geneetech was available.

If I'mn ot mistaken, synaptic booster 3 is a 2050-vintage biotech and probably appeared as a genmod even later, which puts a fairly stringent limit on getting it through genetic heritage.

And depending on how the law is set, it could mean the character's parents are liable to a suit for illegal use of proprietary genetic material and unlicesned alteration of human genome (passing on said proprietary genes without having a license for performing genemods). Of course that's a worse case asumption.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 05:20 PM

Well, it was commercially available at Vintage 2050. It was probably around a bit (or a lot) longer than that before it was commercially perfected.

Posted by: Mäx Feb 12 2013, 05:49 PM

Just no.
People always ignore the preceding text, that part is still about.
"Animal features can include any phenotypic modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails, claws, and other animal characteristics"

It does not mean you can just get any bioware you like as genetech.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 05:56 PM

The EXAMPLES you pull from the quote would be to get the Essence cost and price listed on the table for the genetech modification. As stated later in the same paragraph, other things are possible to be done with it using the price and Essence cost of bio ware, so you are the one blatantly ignoring a section of the description.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 12 2013, 06:03 PM

Which is why there is a lot of contention...

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 06:04 PM

Okay... I assume the intent for such features were for things like scent glands, gecko tips or spider silk.
But by the book you're technically allowed to, although... It doesn't reference bioware, it reference the biotech chapter. (As such you could be just as anal as a GM and forbid SB since it's not in augmentation)

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 06:14 PM

There are definitely animals with two passes, so level 1 Synaptic Booster is definitely possible. I'm not sure if there are any with 3, so level 2 might be--I'm not positive--but there are none with 4 passes so level 3 probably wouldn't be.

Personally, the main reason I "defend" it is that I like the idea of having the bio-ware stuff on a character through gene tweaking rather than as implants, and I personally would rather having it for all of my bio-ware.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 06:19 PM

Well you're trying to get an 80k (16BP) Implant for 10 BP, you're also getting a price reduction on future genetweaks...
That if anything is trying to exploit loopholes in the rules, I plug loopholes. For everyones enjoyment. Not just the one guy that read all the books page through page and found that one little thing.
That guy used to be me, for the record.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 06:23 PM

Think about it, dude. It's only 6 points less, and it's 10 less points that can be used for other qualities--unlike just spending the 6 extra to just buy the implant on that part--it's not that big a deal that it "needs to be plugged". If you're that adamant that it does "need to be plugged" a far better house rule would be just to ditch the quality.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 12 2013, 06:34 PM

and 16 more points you can spend towards resources...
It's not house ruling when you act within the spirit and perceived intent of the item in question.
You've showed distaste for rule lawyering in the past, what would you class this as?

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 06:44 PM

As something that's not actually a big enough deal to bother with changing anything. Just because something can be "abused" doesn't mean it will be on a consistent enough basis to bother changing anything.

Posted by: Mäx Feb 12 2013, 06:46 PM

You pay the genetech modification cost to get those kinds of thinks as fully cosmetic, if you want them to function you pay the costs of the similar bio mod.
At nopoint does the nature of what kind of thinks you can get change.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 06:55 PM

The "full functionality" phrase would do so. That would include things such as attribute affinities from the animal, reflexes (passes) and stuff like that.

Posted by: Umidori Feb 12 2013, 07:04 PM

I agree. Moving with cat-like movements and grace, with the physical motions and visual aesthetics of a cat? Doable at the base level. Moving with hyper cat reflexes? That requires "full functionality".

~Umi

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 12 2013, 07:08 PM

All in all though it seems like the biggest hissy fit spawns from using it with that Genetic Heritage quality. Instead of house ruling to make the gene treatment nigh-worthless for anything but "fluffy" considerations, it would be a far better house rule (like I said before) to just house rule that the quality doesn't exist.

Though also like I said before, I don't think it's actually a big enough deal to bother doing anything, and that just because something can be 'abused' doesn't mean it will be consistently enough to make it a big enough deal to bother with.

Posted by: Mäx Feb 12 2013, 07:20 PM

Not really no.
Stuff changing from cosmetic to fully functional, has no bearing on what kind of thinks can be gotten.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Feb 13 2013, 02:50 PM

I don't see what cosmetic/fully functional has to do with anything regarding this. If its being payed for with equal essence and nuyen cost, then its 100% balanced. The ONLY problem is, as others have mentioned, when it is used with genetic heritage. Which means that Genetic Heritage is the issue, not the transgenic biotech. If you want Genetic Heritage to work with it, limiting to rating 1 (anything) will balance out most issues, and synaptic booster 1 isn't that game breaking for an overpriced piece of tech anyway.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 14 2013, 03:23 PM

To be honest, I'd see alot of this as a purposeful dodge of the rules. If a player is purposefully trying to dodge the rules, they get hit with the core book up side the head. lol

For CHARACTER DEPTH I'll bend alot. Someone wanting wired reflexes 3 and trying to get it with out paying for it, and makes up some excuse to try and justify it? No. The option described here was pretty clearly meant for minor appearance or features that wern't covered elsewhere. Not for mini-maxing. And while you can use it for such, in my games I'd rule it (purposefully trying to mini max using this aspect) as trying to circumvent the rules and thus not allowed.

I know not all do such, but in our games bending the rules to try and get the most stats, for the stats sake is frowned upon, (And mocked). Again if you've got a concept for... a badger guy and you want badger fur and badger teeth and stuff, and you can explain it to me in a way that 1) Doesn't sound moronic, and 2) Could roll with the game. It's one thing. If you want free strength and stam and bite attack and point out you can get a free bit of this by using an obscure rule, and just throw the badger thing on there for that rule use. No.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 04:41 PM

Except that the rule is not obscure.

You can allow the SA 3 as a genecrafted choice, and enforce that the costs are equal to SA 3 (Essence and Nuyen). However, the concept of a Genegeneered Character is pretty awesome, and the fact that it costs you something to get it is okay. In most cases, I would not allow the 10BP quality to provide SA3 (48 BP worth of resources). But SA 1 is certainly doable, in my opinion (you only save 6 BP in this case) and it opens up a lot of potential roleplaying ideas based upon the character's background (why he has it). *shrug*

As some have stated: The problem is not the Geneware itself, it is the Application of the Quality that is a potential problem.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 14 2013, 04:46 PM

eeehhhhh.. Yeah but that's not why you'd go for it. You're trying to get it on the cheep. From the start of the thread this wasn't "I have an awesome role playing idea and this would fit" It was "Hey if you use this rule in this way you can dodge the cost and get ___ For free" Type thing.

One would be awesome role play, the other is trying to get the stuff and not pay for it, or do so on the cheep. As soon as it became "I want wired reflexes 3 with my transgenetic alt, instead o "A furry lions mane" or the like, it edged into mini-max catagory.

I know some people dedicate their entire gaming experience to doing such, and they have fun that way.

-My- Groups hate that sort of thing, and find it silly.

Different people like different things.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 04:48 PM

No doubt... I hedge away from allowing it too, but I can see places where it may make a good story.
Really depends upon the game in question, and the players involved.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 14 2013, 05:09 PM

TOTAL agreement there.

Posted by: Glyph Feb 15 2013, 03:17 AM

I agree with several of the other posters that it is the intersection of the Genetic Heritage quality, and the text stating that most bioware is available as transgenic modifications, which is at fault. I would limit the quality to specifically transgenic mods such as genetic optimization or Reakt, possibly allowing things like gecko hands or quills, but drawing the line at things like synaptic boosters (at least over level: 1), and certainly not allowing anything over the normal availability, unless Restricted Gear is taken too.

One other thing to keep in mind is that unlike bioware, geneware is not available in higher grades.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 03:25 AM

Sorry, but you are using "min/max" entirely incorrectly. It is simply maximizing a strong area while avoiding ANY AND ALL weaknesses. Most characters that forum posters (here or the official ones) claim as "min/max" are not because they tend to be so full of weak points than a real "min/max" player would NEVER consider simply because they are weak points.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 15 2013, 04:41 AM

I wasn't aware that there was an "Approved" and "Understood by all" Definition for such a thing. Much less that it's what you think, as opposed to what others think. Perhaps you're the one using it wrong?

Mini/maxing can also be the act of purposefully maxing your your stats, while minimizing your negative qualities. It doesn't mean you avoid ANY AND ALL. *shrugs*

You're trying to act as if there's a concrete definition and people are using it wrong. It's at best, common parlance in a subculture. I.E. There's no "Hard definition".

It's like trying to define "Twink" or "power gamer" Wanna start a fight? Bring that up on a gaming forum. You wouldn't believe how many people ____I_____ Could categorize as GIGANTIC TWINKS, define themselves as "power gamers". And while there is gray area in the middle..... the number of Twinks that seem to think they're not, is astounding.

In short, you can't tell others they're using Min/Maxing wrong, as there's no hard fast concrete and universally agreed on definition.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 04:45 AM

Honestly, I hate the term "twink", but mostly because it's mainly used by hardcore "RP Elitists" that think that wanting a decent character mechanically automatically means you can't RP out of a paper bag, which is not true.

Disclaimer- Not saying that you're one of those, but I've mainly seen it out of those types.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 15 2013, 04:52 AM

I'm sure noone likes being called one. lol.

The point being that these are very subjective derogatory terms that are not set in stone. What I think is twinkish, Player B might just see as Power gaming and Player C might just see as "Normal every day character"

What I consider Mini/Maxing might not fit your (more strict) Definition. But your more strict definition would also fall into my not 100% sort of definition. Just taken to an extreme.

So neither one of us can really say the other is "WRONG", we can just go "Well what __I__(( Or the people I play with)) Concider Mini/Maxing is ____" Same thing with Twink and Munchkin, etc. They vary a bit from region to region and group to group. Heck even with in the same group.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 05:23 AM

I hate the term no matter who it's directed at because 9 times out of 10 the person directing it at someone is just in the "RP Elitist" category because they just suck that much at building characters and it makes them feel bigger denigrating others who are more capable.

Posted by: Novocrane Feb 15 2013, 08:48 AM

I don't really like Genetic Heritage as it stands, even though I'm not unwilling to use it within availability and justifiable limits of animals available.

If it had worked such that it granted 45,000¥ towards transgenic enhancements, as well as a 10% discount on the same (total: 50,000¥ worth - or 10bp nuyen equivalent, not including excess purchases) ... I'd consider that a more reasonable quality.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Feb 15 2013, 03:51 PM

Agreed, Then you could go ahead and get that SB 3 with genetic heritage...with a DISCOUNT not for free...assuming you also purchased the restricted gear quality.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Feb 15 2013, 10:02 PM

That's not been my experience over the last 20 years. Though it -has- been my experience that twinks get VERY UPSET when you point it out. Very defensive. And... they tend to attack those calling them such.

Such as statements of "9 times out of 10, people accusing others of being twinks just suck that much at building characters" lol

Really? You think only 1 in 10 people accused of being twinkish, are? and 9 out of 10 times it's the accuser? If you hang around and play with people that falsely accuse others 9 out of 10 times, those people sound like jerks. Glad I don't play with those people if they are accusing 9 innocent people of twinkdom for every one they get right.



My point remains though. The 'definition' of Min/Maxing can vary, and you can't really tell people their version is 'wrong' or they're using it 'wrong'.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 15 2013, 10:35 PM

Basic bioware, and Cosmetic bioware, I wouldn't even blink an eye at; a lot of that stuff is essentially transgenic adaptations of various animal traits, after all.

However, Cultured Bioware and Biosculpting, I would generally say "no" to; likely exceptions would include the Sleep Regulator and Thermosense Organs. Others, I would need some convincing / justifying by the player - mainly, give me a couple example animals with the desired trait, to a degree that it might work as a transgenic mod.

Symbionts, obviously, wold be right out.

And the rest of Bioware, generally is genetic tinkering to begin with.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 15 2013, 10:36 PM

Never heard the term twink used with tabletop before...
The definition Im used to doesn't quite fit though.
A twink is, a character who reaches a high power level in an early stage either because he's getting fed powerful items and enhancements normally very hard to aquire at that level, or who intentionally halts his progress to be powerful in a low power setting.

Min/maxing is when you design a character to shine in a certain field at the expense of other fields. Quite a few min/maxed characters turn out as one trick ponies.
Munchkining is the same except without rhyme or reason to back it up, often crippling yourself outside of your area of expertise. It's also a healthy fear of ducks.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 15 2013, 10:45 PM

I'll go you one better:

The quality has four levels, costing 5BP per level. Each level gives you 20,000¥ worth of genetic modifications at no cost in Nuyen - Essence costs still apply, of course. Each level also gives you a 5% discount on the essence fost of genetic modifications (including, for whatever you get for free).

Yes, that's slightly more BP than you'd spend for that much money, but you ARE getting that (small) discount, too. So IMO, it's reasonably close to balanced, just at the first pass. (Plus it's flexible enough to be used tor multiple Genetech mods).

Oh, and: you can't take the quality more than once. Once you hit 4 levels of it, you're done, thank you for playing.

Posted by: Teulisch Feb 15 2013, 11:17 PM

odd thought here- what about a modification to make the subject a 'good match' for a specific type of bug spirit? possibly from the introduction of insect DNA. this would go well with a spidersilk gland for example (for any species that spins a cocoon).

as for letting a 10BP merit give a starting character 4 ip, remember that its going to cost 1.8 essence as geneware, which means no break on cost there. if anything, it makes the characters brain a vital piece of research material for any corp that learns of it... and the lab that put it in some years ago may want their test subject alpha back....

really, if a player is willing to be on the run from an Ares lab that was injecting metahumans with bug DNA, then he can have his upgrade for as long as he can stay alive and free.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 11:49 PM

1.5 Essence... Synaptic Accelerators are 0.5 Essence per Rating.
As for test subject alpha... this is his/her child, and not him/her. Genetic Heritage means it was passed on through the genetic line.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 16 2013, 01:47 AM

That could work, but I was more just pointing out that the fits do come from using the quality to get it without the money cost.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 16 2013, 03:38 AM

Oh, I agree with you there. I was just pointing out a better (IMO) solution to outright saying "ixnay" to the quality at all.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 16 2013, 03:47 AM

Yeah. Only reason I'd even considering saying "ixnay" on it is because there's another 'genetic' quality (I just forget the name of the other one off-hand right now...cranial flatulence).

Posted by: Teulisch Feb 16 2013, 01:36 PM

you forgot the .3 essence for the genetic modification to get that.
also? your taking the fluff too literally. genetic heritage covers a number of possibilities which include inheritance.... but test subject alpha could just be a test tube baby.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 16 2013, 02:00 PM

That .3 essence is a minimum, not an extra.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 16 2013, 05:25 PM

Pax is right. It's .3 Essence or the Essence cost of the implant being replicated.

The other 'genetic quality' would be the one for that, not Genetic Heritage.

Edit- Just looked it up because not remembering the name for it was bothering me. Gene Crafted would be the one you're thinking of.

Posted by: Makki Feb 18 2013, 09:24 AM

Just found another use for Genetic Heritage:

As per RC p.110 one can get non-magical Metagenetic Qualities as Trangenic Alterations for at least 0.1 Essence and BP x 25k . Since this can be a ridiculous amount of money...
Best use is Metagenetic Improvement (500k ), which stacks with Genetic Optimization.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Feb 18 2013, 06:25 PM

Oh yeah, i posted on the use for this a year ago or so...and i was totally surprised when nobody responded to my post like it didn't exist...

Edit: What i had to say on the subject http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=27280&view=findpost&p=826543

Posted by: Makki Feb 18 2013, 07:18 PM

yeah. I think It's not that much of an abuse. Instead of 10BP + a flaw you pay 10BP and some Essence