Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Force 12 Power Focus?
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 13 2013, 05:13 AM
I have a PC in my group who is currently trying to get a Force 12 Power focus? How much would a Force 12 Power focus cost both Nuyen and Karma wise? also can she make it herself to reduce the cost? What are the requirements for using this foci?
Magic is one of the areas I am not entirely familiar in Shadowrun, being a new GM to this system.
If someone could breakdown the costs and step by step process to get it and whats entailed/required for it that would be great.
Posted by: ggodo Feb 13 2013, 05:25 AM
300000 by my count. Oh, and an availability of 60R which means that you've got to make availability tests until you get 60 hits, with each roll being a week of ingame time. Long Story Short, it's a ton of money and a ton of in game time. The option of building it yourself means that the player has to go find the pieces, likely rare woods, animal parts, jewels, and such, then succeeding on a similar difficulty-level Enchanting test to produce it. Basically, it's like getting Deltaware for the non-mages. Really, really, hard. Besides, I don't know what dice is normal at your table, but an extra 12 dice on every test is a lot.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 13 2013, 05:33 AM
Not to mention a total of 96 Karma just to bind the darn thing.
All said and done though, Force 12 Power Focus? YES PLEASE!
Posted by: DMiller Feb 13 2013, 05:47 AM
Something else to keep in mind that's 96 karma before the focus is usable at all, you can't partially bind a focus it's all or nothing.
-D
Edit:
Creating the focus herself would require (as per SM pg 83+)
Arcana + Logic (144, 1 day) test (I'd be sure to use the depleting dice pools rules) to create the formula.
After the formula is completed then comes the crafting which is a base of:
Enchanting + Magic (16 + object resistance, 1 day), once successful the enchanter pays 1 karma and the focus is ready for bonding.
There are a lot of other things in play with creating a focus, please reference Street Magic page 79+ (Enchanting 101).
Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 13 2013, 06:27 AM
Too bad going to make a Force 12 Power Focus of your own is almost as bad as buying it outright. Researching the formula would be an Arcana + Magic (144, 1 day) extended test. Buying the formula instead would cost only 24,000¥ (compared to the completed product cost of 300,000¥), but at an availability of 96R to track down, and you're still testing at 1 week. Too bad spirits can't aid in researching a focus formula.
After that it looks a bit easier. Creating a Force 12 Power Focus is going to require a Force 12 lodge, and if you're going to do it in your own lodge means you've got to have Magic 12, but then you should already have Magic 12 in order to be able to bond a Force 12 focus in the first place. Making the desired object a Force 12 focus is an Enchanting + Magic (16 + Object Resistance, 1 Day) extended test, with a -12 DP penalty for the Force of 12, and costs 1 karma once complete. Then there's the all-or-nothing 96 karma cost to bond it once it's done.
On the plus side, you should be able to earn some karma while you're out and about trying to harvest the special telesma and/or orichalcum to give you a really good dice pool bonus to the overall creation of this focus. (SR4a, 190 or SM, 83-84 for more details)
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 13 2013, 06:34 AM
After that it looks a bit easier. Creating a Force 12 Power Focus is going to require a Force 12 lodge, and if you're going to do it in your own lodge means you've got to have Magic 12, but then you should already have Magic 12 in order to be able to bond a Force 12 focus in the first place. Making the desired object a Force 12 focus is an Enchanting + Magic (16 + Object Resistance, 1 Day) extended test, with a -12 DP penalty for the Force of 12, and costs 1 karma once complete. Then there's the all-or-nothing 96 karma cost to bond it once it's done.
On the plus side, you should be able to earn some karma while you're out and about trying to harvest the special telesma and/or orichalcum to give you a really good dice pool bonus to the overall creation of this focus. (SR4a, 190 or SM, 83-84 for more details)
So she HAS to have a magic 12 in order to create a Power Focus of 12? Can she not use her Groups lodge? Shes with the Bear Shamans, or whatever they are called.
Posted by: Makki Feb 13 2013, 06:37 AM
I think you're mistaken here. I believe you can have foci of a force higher than your MAG.
However you need at least MAG 6 to not immediately gain focus addiction, assuming you do not already have any other foci bonded.
For my part, the -12 on the Enchanting test is seriously troublesome...
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 13 2013, 06:38 AM
To make it yourself yeah, but if you just buy one (assuming you can find one that good) it's a lot less cost (in karma).
Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 13 2013, 06:39 AM
Well, for some reason I had it in my head that you couldn't bond a focus with a Force higher than your Magic. For what I can find, you could have a Magic 3 and still be able to bond a Force 12 focus (limit of the sum of all foci at Magic * 3). Guess I had that wrong.
If the magician has access to a Force 12 lodge of her tradition (sounds like she does), then she can do the enchantment herself.
Posted by: thorya Feb 13 2013, 06:43 AM
It's a smaller cost but it's worth noting that the player will also need a force 12 lodge to make this themselves.
Cost 6,000 nuyen
12 days to set up.
Availability 24 for the materials.
Even if we assume an Arcana + Logic of (12), to research you should expect 36 days, if you don't use degrading dice pools, which I would suggest doing here.
And the enchanting test is hard, if we again assume a dice pool of Enchant + Magic (12) to start with. -12 for the force of the focus puts you at 0 on your dice pool. You use exotic telsma for the +4 (no price guidelines here, but based on the description of dragon hide and unicorn horns I'm thinking expensive), a unit of orichalcum +2 (50,000) and 12 exotic reagents of the same type (a number equal to the force) for an additional +1 for each set of 12 exotic reagents (I would use the 1d6 x 10,000 as a price guideline for how much each one costs, less if they roleplay acquiring them). So you're back at 7 for your dice pool, with a 1.5% chance to glitch on each test and 5 or more test before you finish. Again, I would probably use a diminishing dice pool.
Plus you probably want an enchanting shop (50,000).
I would put the cost to make it yourself: 24,000 for the formula, 50,000 exotic telsma, 50,000 orichalcum x 2 (cheaper than reagents for a focus this high a force) and rental of an enchanting shop for a month 1,500. 175500 nuyen, I would round that to an even 200,000 nuyen.
Edit: Guess I got ninjaed on the lodge thing and the -12 dice pool.
Also, a focus this powerful is going to attract a lot of attention. If the character tries buying it, any glitches on the negotiation+Charisma are sure to bring the attention of a dragon or free spirit. And once it is made, it's going to be an astral beacon of things looking to mess with you.
Posted by: Falconer Feb 13 2013, 08:09 AM
Yes... someone else noticed the big -dice penalty on the actual enchanting test. Though the actual enchanting test is still far too easy compared to the design arcana test.
Another problem as other pointed out... a force 12 focus of anything is a serious attention getter.. and not one you can mask more than likely. You can't mask things with higher force than your own magic score, and can only mask a number of individual items up to your initiate grade with extended masking.
Others brought up magic addiction problems.
And 144 on an extended test is not going to happen unless you ignore the -1 dice per extended test roll. Then you run into the problem of anyone can do anything no matter how difficult.
Posted by: TheOOB Feb 13 2013, 08:34 AM
I can think of a couple immortal elves and great dragons who may kill to get a magical item that powerful. Force 12 anything is so powerful and rare that I doubt any runner type character would want it lying around. It's the same reason shadowrunners don't use military attack vtols all that often.
Posted by: Smirnov Feb 13 2013, 09:23 AM
One other option I would five thought to is that such powerful foci are probably artifacts in themselves. There can be an adventure or a couple of them while trying to get one. And it will certainly attract attention. If I recon correct, Harlequin's rapier is force 12 weapon focus for example. Power focus would be more powerful and rare.
Posted by: thorya Feb 13 2013, 09:28 AM
I think a more accurate description of the cost high force focuses would be achieved by using Force^2 x Constant in the price rather than Force x 25,000.
Maybe Power focus cost = Force^2 x 10000
And even that's low for really high power foci.
Posted by: SpellBinder Feb 13 2013, 09:30 AM
Harlequin's rapier is Force 16, along with up to 24 random buttons that are up to Force 10 Sustaining foci (12+2d6 at Force 4+d6 each). But then he's also got Extended Masking and is at least a level 24 Initiate. (Street Legends Supplemental)
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2013, 01:57 PM
Harlequin's Sword is Force 16.
EDIT: Ooops... Ninja'ed by Spellbinder.
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 13 2013, 03:28 PM
Well after reading these replies, it seems like there is no real way she can accomplish this as easily or cheaply as she seems to think it will be, she is a member of Bear Doctor Society, and from what I see they only have a magical lodge of 8, would the group even allow a member to make a Foci for themselves and their own selfish use? They seem like a more community oriented group 'these powerful items are for group uses and gatherings'
Does she still need a personal MAG attribute of 8 to use the lodge of the group?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2013, 03:33 PM
You do not need a Magic of 8 to use a Lodge of 8. However, you are capped at Force 8 for Lodge Use (you cannot go to Force 9+ in a Lodge of Force 8 ).
As for whether her group would allow a personal Focus. Why would they not?
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 13 2013, 03:38 PM
Just seems like an easy way to get ahead, for personal selfish gains... X joins group Y to gain access to Z in order to craft something they would not normally have. I am not against it im just looking it it from various POVs
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2013, 04:08 PM
Happens in every group. The trick that I use is to craft the group to be an intrinsic part of the character's objectives (you are not likely to join, or be accepted into, a group that is not in keeping with your objectives to start with). You are not going to get away from a die-hard user, though. And in the end, it may cost him in the form of his connection to his group. *shrug*
Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 13 2013, 04:15 PM
What about the other sword?
Posted by: Sinistra Feb 13 2013, 05:52 PM
Seems learn something never about Foci everyday, I had no idea they could get so ridiculous. I only having rating 2 and 3 foci on my main character. Though I guess other than the Nuyen, Karma, and the fact that is is very powerful, will be its own issues for the PC.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 13 2013, 05:57 PM
And even that's low for really high power foci.
Low my ass. That cost formula on the Force currently being discussed would cost 1,440,000
Posted by: pbangarth Feb 13 2013, 06:03 PM
+1 to this.
Posted by: thorya Feb 13 2013, 07:19 PM
Which for something that gives +12 to nearly everything you do with magic is a generously low price. It's in the same range as several pieces of Deltaware and if you're going to let a mage have +12 to their dice pools that is more than equivalent to the bonuses that your other runners could get from similar equipment costs. Especially since even without a power focus, a standard mage is more than capable. Doubling their dice pools should be expensive.
Edit: Changed the wording to avoid the inevitable, intentional misunderstanding.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 13 2013, 07:25 PM
And by the time said mage has enough spare money to buy and spare karma to bond that thing at that price, he should be able to get it. Just because everything is not 100% equal does not mean it isn't "balanced".
Posted by: Mantis Feb 13 2013, 10:05 PM
How exactly are you going to pull off the thresholds to either source it or create the formula yourself? 60 or 96 or 144 is damn hard to near impossible. Not to mention the 96 karma. Avalon, I'm not sure what power levels there are in your game but how does your player look at those numbers and go 'yeah, I can do that.' I had a player once who wanted a force 7 weapon focus but once they were made aware of how hard that would be to get, they changed their minds. Force 12? No way.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2013, 10:15 PM
Entirely possible if you do not use descending Dice Pools, all it takes is time, resources and money...
Posted by: Mantis Feb 13 2013, 11:34 PM
Whoops. I've been playing with the descending dice pools since we started playing 4th ed that I'd thought that was the default. Looking over the rule I see that it is only a suggested rule. Though in this case, I'd suggest Avalon take advantage of it.
Posted by: Jaid Feb 14 2013, 12:48 AM
even without that rule, i'd expect a fair number of glitches to be rolled up to get to 144 hits.
and i seem to vaguely recall that each glitch on a formula research test for a focus makes it require an unusual ingredient (with no special benefit), though that could just be my brain playing tricks on me.
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 14 2013, 02:57 AM
Edit: Changed the wording to avoid the inevitable, intentional misunderstanding.
Oh I have no intention of letting this go through as she wants it, I wanted informed opinions of fellow players and other GMs as to what they thought about it. So far I have gotten the message of "Very powerful people/dragons will be coming for it, very expensive to make on your own, even more expensive to try and buy it outright, even harder to bond to it... overall chance of something like this happening... nill to none. I think the character has a personal magic of 4-5 at best. Her groups lodge is an 8 at best.
My other fellow GM who is taking over is aware of the ramifications, costs and time required. He and I are coming up with some ideas to work on this.
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 14 2013, 03:14 AM
The group is roughly at 52 Karma, but I was giving out too much in the beginning, so I have since slowed it down to kinda balance things out.
What are these descending dice rules people are talking about? are they a house rule or listed in the books as a standard way of doing things?
Posted by: Falconer Feb 14 2013, 03:15 AM
Avalon... in which case at a magic 4 or 5... read the magic addiction rules in street magic.
Think 'gollum' and 'the precious'... her magic is less than half the force. Digital grimoire set the upper limit on total active foci at 2x magic in force before addiction becomes a problem.
Really don't know what else you expect... you've got a big list of complications...
The only thing I can think to add is that generally the cost of raw materials is half the final price of anything you build... that's just part of the general construction rules. (if you look at the rules for reagants... you'll notice that each time they're refined they double in value... in the matrix chapter the cost for building an upgrade from parts is half it's book value... etc. it's a general trend in the book... but once again spice as needed).
Unless the dice pool is very small... you're unlikely to get a lot of glitches on an extended arcana test to design. But that's the kind of thing which takes weeks/months of full time work to design.
Otherwise... yeah there's the question of unique and special reagants needed for construction. That's going to be based on her tradition... but that's the stuff of full blown adventures in their own right. Is she ready to pay for the other players to work for her while she pursues her own goals?
Avalon: it's right int he main SR4 book for extended tests.
Start with the full modified dice pool... then each 'interval' time... when you reroll the pool... you take out 1 dice. So a mechanic with 10 dice, and an interval of 1 hours... would roll 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 dice... then if it's not done he simply doesn't have the skills to do it... or wasn't lucky enough. (so in that case 55 dice total rolled... with average of 18 successes... but also the smaller the dice pool gets the more likely a glitch/crit glitch result becomes as well).
Posted by: bannockburn Feb 14 2013, 03:23 AM
To be fair, I've had a character once where I saved up his first 120 Karma or so to summon an ally spirit. Personal decisions, so a 96 karma focus ... well.
Sounds a bit weird though. Other advances would be far more useful, to my mind.
One die less per test in an extended test.
Simple enough, avoids a lot of hilarity (such as hacking 1 exploit 1 'hackers' entering the securest systems).
The suggested way to do this is to apply a cumulative –1 dice modi fier to each test after the first (so a character with a Skill 3 + Attribute 3
would roll 6 dice in their first test, 5 in their second, 4 on their third,etc)
Emphasis mine.
Posted by: Avalon2099 Feb 14 2013, 06:12 AM
Think 'gollum' and 'the precious'... her magic is less than half the force. Digital grimoire set the upper limit on total active foci at 2x magic in force before addiction becomes a problem.
Really don't know what else you expect... you've got a big list of complications...
The only thing I can think to add is that generally the cost of raw materials is half the final price of anything you build... that's just part of the general construction rules. (if you look at the rules for reagants... you'll notice that each time they're refined they double in value... in the matrix chapter the cost for building an upgrade from parts is half it's book value... etc. it's a general trend in the book... but once again spice as needed).
Unless the dice pool is very small... you're unlikely to get a lot of glitches on an extended arcana test to design. But that's the kind of thing which takes weeks/months of full time work to design.
Otherwise... yeah there's the question of unique and special reagants needed for construction. That's going to be based on her tradition... but that's the stuff of full blown adventures in their own right. Is she ready to pay for the other players to work for her while she pursues her own goals?
Avalon: it's right int he main SR4 book for extended tests.
Start with the full modified dice pool... then each 'interval' time... when you reroll the pool... you take out 1 dice. So a mechanic with 10 dice, and an interval of 1 hours... would roll 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 dice... then if it's not done he simply doesn't have the skills to do it... or wasn't lucky enough. (so in that case 55 dice total rolled... with average of 18 successes... but also the smaller the dice pool gets the more likely a glitch/crit glitch result becomes as well).
Ah thank you, found them. Yeah this definitely calls for those rules as this is something well out of her capabilities. I just think they are trying to prey on my lack of knowledge on the system as some of the players are well versed in the game mechanics and I am not so much yet. Which is why I come here to clarify and ask for help.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 02:06 PM
Just a note... If you stick to the Descending Pool optional rule, you will find that even a professional Mechanic is incapable of repairing a vehicle that needs serious work. Look at it this way, instead. If time is never an issue, most people will eventually accomplish what they set out to do, one way or another. And in this regard, the descending dice pool is ludicrous. If, however, the time factor matters (Need to make that hardware roll in 4 rolls or the guard catches you) then the descending pool option works well, as there are a lot of distractions that play into whether or not you can accomplish the task.
I cannot rebuild an engine in any appreciable time frame. And I am nearly a mechanical incompetent. But given unlimited time, I will (and have) accomplished such a task. *shrug*
My opinion: Let them work on that Focus item in their spare time (designing the formula, obtaining reagents, etc.) They are paying for it, after all. It is a much better option than having a Force 12 Ally Spirit after all, which would cost the same base 96 Karma, with no nuyen expenditure involved at all other than the Binding materials required to initially bind the Spirit before the Ally Ritual is applied (as well as purchasing a Rating 12 Lodge, which is trivial, honestly), and no risk of Focus addiction, and, you know, being a Force 12 Ally Spirit and all. *shrug*
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 04:11 PM
I'd like to point out that the plot of a major shadowrun novel series was based around just that.
As much as people hate the Dragonheart Saga, that is what the books were about: two major players (a cyberzombie* and a physical adept, IIRC) fighting it out over a piece of bloody enchanted meat (Big D's heart / Force 12 power focus*).
*At the time, the current rules were that power foci directly added their force to the user's MAG rating, meaning the cyberzombie wouldn't be a burnt out mage any more.
Posted by: Mantis Feb 14 2013, 04:20 PM
Well summoning and binding said ally is no trivial matter. Seems there is a good chance you will die trying as you must soak around 24P (assuming you don't have magic 12) average damage (assume 1 hit/3 dice) from the drain. And be left with a good chance you won't get the thing anyway if it rolls more hits than you. In addition the ally costs a minimum of 96 karma (nothing extra added to it). In addition you are looking at a 60 threshold to design the formula. Again a non-trivial matter.
I get the whole let the player do what they want idea but there should be some limits.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 04:46 PM
I get the whole let the player do what they want idea but there should be some limits.
The limits are exactly the requirements to acquire the thing they want. How quickly do you actually expect this to occur?
Posted by: Falconer Feb 14 2013, 06:42 PM
TJ: except that the arcana crafting rules are not a little bit here and there affair. They assume it's a full time job... not quite as bad as the rules for refining reagants or orichalchum where you have no life whatsoever for a month. But still it's a full time job in it's own right to do it.
As far as the mechanic goes... are you remembing to include extra bits for tools, helpers, AR-help (+1 to 3 dice)... if the mechanic is allowed to double his skill via teamwork with a second mechanic helping ON A MAJOR REPAIR... now you're looking at a serious dice pool. And got news.. a major major repair doesn't always work out... But yes 6 dice min is ignoring all the bonus dice available... +2 AR help... +3 teamwork... now suddenly we're at 11 dice... and most of those checks aren't looking that hard. Superior tools is something I've seen some GM's house rule as well... (if they have a shop when they only need a tool kit..).
So no I strongly disagree with the notion of just let them roll their full die pool all the time every time just because it's not rushed... it tends to make most things way too easy.
Speaking from experience in a ludicrously karma generous magic-run game. Binding a force 11 was a major deal (my magic score at the time was 11... and I refused to try and do anything bigger than I was!)... it required significant downtime to design the spirit in the first place... then more prep for the binding ritual... I pulled out a force 9 spirit of man with two increase spells and an awaken spell... summoned... bound it... then had it cast and maintain them to max out my drain attributes and fix it so stun wouldn't be able to knock me unconscious with the awaken spell as well. With a very high initiate grade (centering), maxed out drain... I was barely able to squeek through the 28'ish drain the thing pounded me with with about 4 or 5 boxes of physical left a full stun track (thank god for thinking to pre-cast the awaken spell)... and spending edge on both the binding and the drain rolls....
It went easier when I was mag 13 with a few more initiate grades... and figured the spirit needed an 'upgrade' for RP reasons... and upped it to force 12... I also made a new force 7 'lab assistant' ally... who focused on arcana, enchanting, and talismongering.... You have no idea how good it feels to have something researching those new spell ideas you always. I'm bringing that up because an ally spirit can aid study in the creation of a focus... if it doesn't have the skills to do it itself for you....
But little to none of this is the kind of thing you're going to do in a normal game... maybe just maybe making an 'assistant' ally like my lower force one... But even that was expensive.
Also just to give the OP an idea how many and what kinds of foci that high level caster had... 13 magic, 10 initiate grades... I bound a force 5 power focus early on (no one bound higher than force 6)... but also a force 5 health sustaining focus, a force 6 detection sustaining focus, a force 6 manipulation sustaining focus, I was eyeballing a force 4 centering focus or shielding focus as well... though I wouldn't be able to use all of them at once. But that's a 1000+ karma character... not a Mag 4 or 5 character straight out of chargen with no initiate grades. Also the game dealt very heavy with high magic... lots of dragons... free spirits.. drakes... etc.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 06:55 PM
Indeed, Falconer, and that is my point. You had to jump through hoops to get your Force 11 Spirit Ally. Should I have told you no, in that regard, because I thought it was overpowered? It took you time and effort, according to your example (and it was a LOT of time, effort and Karma). And you should be rewarded. At our table, the result would have been less useful to you, since that level of spirit would spend Edge to resist the Summoning and Binding, but there you go. You likely would have settled for Force 5-7 or so for the top dog Ally. We have processes in place to keep that sort of thing in check. They do not stop you from doing so, they just reinforce the consequences for doing so. If you can pull it off, then you should be rewarded. 
From what I remember, it does not require uninterrupted time to design Spells or Formulae. I could be wrong, though.
I have no issue with someone wanting to go through the motions to design and create a Force 12 Focus (of any type). It will likely take a LOT of time, resources and Karma. IF they get there, they should be rewarded with the object of thir focus, as it were. In my experience, however, it never gets there, because life happens, and that money, time, and Karma gets spent on something else entirely. *shrug*
Posted by: Falconer Feb 14 2013, 07:17 PM
Notice I said 28'ish drain... hell yeah it edged the initial binding! That's ~14 successes on 22 dice. (our general rule is that any spirit bigger than your magic will edge it's summoning/binding; not just any spirit over an arbitrary force... more powerful mages can command more powerful magics...).
Since it was equal or less than my magic score though that was stun which gave me an extra 13 boxes of damage to work with before it hit physical... without awaken with 5+ successes though... it would have knocked me unconscious and a rather big nasty free spirit resulting...
The rebinding when I upgraded it's spirit formula went a lot smoother because I'd been good to the spirit... and it was getting more force (which gave it a new power), more spells, and skills added to it... so it didn't edge the rebinding test.
But my point was this was not a typical SR game... I really didn't enjoy it... ever seen what a force 21 stunball does to things?! It's not pretty... it tends to blow straight through the entire stun and physical damage track and go out the overflow on the other side.... but when there's so much counterspelling nothing but a high force spell in the high teens/20's will go through plus edge... you're kinda left with no option except a blender with two settings 'do nothing' and 'puree'. That tends to be what happens when games hit that level. Guns: save or die... spells: save or die... At that level it's much more of a game of politics... who do you talk with/work with... whose agendas do you support/oppose... who are your allies / 'allies' / and enemies... or friends of convenience.
A normal SR game would be you are the pawns on the chess board... okay maybe a minor piece like a knight or bishop... but you're not the chessmaster... you're just a piece on the board. This was much more at the moving the pieces level.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 07:21 PM
It's one of those things that makes me go "bwu?" at TJ's table. "Over force 4 spend edge" combined with the "drain equal to hits" (rather than the net hits)* makes it near impossible for anyone to summon over about F20 or bind above F10. Not even the supermagicians because their drain stats are hard-capped so low relative to their magic.
*RAW rule that I disagree with.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 07:30 PM
Since it was equal or less than my magic score though that was stun which gave me an extra 13 boxes of damage to work with before it hit physical... without awaken with 5+ successes though... it would have knocked me unconscious and a rather big nasty free spirit resulting...
The rebinding when I upgraded it's spirit formula went a lot smoother because I'd been good to the spirit... and it was getting more force (which gave it a new power), more spells, and skills added to it... so it didn't edge the rebinding test.
But my point was this was not a typical SR game... I really didn't enjoy it... ever seen what a force 21 stunball does to things?! It's not pretty... it tends to blow straight through the entire stun and physical damage track and go out the overflow on the other side.... but when there's so much counterspelling nothing but a high force spell in the high teens/20's will go through plus edge... you're kinda left with no option except a blender with two settings 'do nothing' and 'puree'. That tends to be what happens when games hit that level. Guns: save or die... spells: save or die... At that level it's much more of a game of politics... who do you talk with/work with... whose agendas do you support/oppose... who are your allies / 'allies' / and enemies... or friends of convenience.
A normal SR game would be you are the pawns on the chess board... okay maybe a minor piece like a knight or bishop... but you're not the chessmaster... you're just a piece on the board. This was much more at the moving the pieces level.
Yeah, I can agree with you here... I would not enjoy such a game either.
Though I would never tell a character they could not pursue the goal. They would just not likely get there. As I indicated, at least at our table, most Saved Karma is spent well before the saved for goal is ever met.
Posted by: Mantis Feb 14 2013, 07:53 PM
OK. Let me reword my point slightly. It is highly unlikely you will succeed at getting either a force 12 power focus or force 12 ally spirit due to the high thresholds, karma and money involved. Sure the player can pursue it but to what end? You are as likely to die or get bored or need the resources for something else well before you get there and then the PC has wasted time on this project that could have been better spent on something actually attainable.
I would rather lay all this out to the player when they ask to avoid that time wasted and then if they still want to go for it try to find out just why they want this thing that is so far outside the norm. I've been down this road with a player before and it basically boiled down to wanting an extra die for attacks (weapon focus 7 vs a 6) but when this was pointed out he reconsidered. 1 die wasn't worth the extra hassle and effort involved. So in Avalon's case, he should ask just why the player feels his/her character needs a force 12 anything, especially when sitting at 52 karma. Sure he can just say 'yeah, go for it' but if it isn't likely to ever happen, what's the point?
Posted by: Falconer Feb 14 2013, 08:26 PM
*RAW rule that I disagree with.
bwu?
And I have no idea what you mean by drain. The by the book rule is spirit drain is 2x it's hits... (+50% for invoked).
I don't even know where to think you're getting net hits on anything... as that makes no sense whatsoever. Net hits is the number of services... It's not like spellcasting at all (where you pay extra for the spell on top of the skill + magic). This is merely skill + magic... nothing more... then wrangling with another magical sentient to do your bidding.
This portion of the RAW has never done us wrong... and the risk of edge on binding bigger spirits binding is ever present. (and to a lesser degree summoning as well). It makes force 6's risky business to try and pull up on the fly. It make summoning anything higher than your magic risky business since you lose the 'stun buffer' and go straight to physical.
And trying to summon big spirits on the fly mid-run has always been more of a desperation move due to the risky and highly variable drain.
So the only bit there I disagree with is TJ's force 4+ (or 5+ depending on how you read it).. always spend edge. (some things a spirit will 'want' to do... such as asking a fire spirit to commit arson). For us, if it's bigger than you are it's extremely like to edge... but if it's smaller it might as well. Put another way... it's a guessing game... pulling up a fire spirit to commit arson may be just giving it a free ticket to the amusement park... or might result in a sultry spirit... But generally the problem with spirits is the 'goldilocks zone' force 4 and under are almost too weak to be used... force 5-6 generally usable... force 7+ whoa nellie....
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 08:40 PM
And I have no idea what you mean by drain.
My "bwu"* is about this part:
The other part about drain being equal to 2x hits is something I disagree with but isn't something special about TJ's table.
*"Bwu?" Pronounce it just like it's spelled. It's an interjection of confusion, roughly translating to "but wait, what?"
Posted by: Falconer Feb 14 2013, 08:42 PM
No... no idea what 'bwu' is short for.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 08:52 PM
It's a noise. Like "huh" "erm" and "meep meep."
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 09:06 PM
*RAW rule that I disagree with.
DO you see what you are saying here Draco18s? Force 20 Sumomning? THAT is a Ludicrous and then some, for almost any game.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 09:10 PM
Is Force 20 is ludicrous for a great dragon?
No?
Do the math using the crunch and find out what happens.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 09:13 PM
No?
Do the math using the crunch and find out what happens.
Dragons have no problem surviving the Drain we use at our table. *shrug*
Especially since it is Stun for Drain. *shrug*
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 09:22 PM
Especially since it is Stun for Drain. *shrug*
What force are your dragons summoning?
How much magic do those dragons have?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 09:46 PM
How much magic do those dragons have?
We have no dragons in our game (they are not PC material after all), but the canon examples would not even be bothered. *shrug*
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 14 2013, 10:21 PM
Especially since it is Stun for Drain. *shrug*
*Facepalm*
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 10:35 PM
Pretty simple really...
The Game has a Drain Mechanic...
We use Edge to Resist Summoning/Binding, which possibly increases Drain.
At the Rates you say are common (Force 20 Spirits apparently); and since that Force (20) is below all canon examples of the Great's level of Magic that I have seen, the Drain is Stun Damage and those Dragons could easily survive that Drain.
I base this on the premise that was touted above of Typical Force 20 Spirits.
Therefore, Dragons have no problems surviving the Drain we use at our table. What is so hard to understand?
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 14 2013, 10:40 PM
The Game has a Drain Mechanic...
We use Edge to Resist Summoning/Binding, which possibly increases Drain.
At the Rates you say are common (Force 20 Spirits apparently); and since that Force (20) is below all canon examples of the Great's level of Magic that I have seen, the Drain is Stun Damage and those Dragons could easily survive that Drain.
Therefore, Dragons have no problems surviving the Drain we use at our table. What is so hard to understand?
It's the "always" using Edge just because of the spirit's Force that is the issue. That Force 8 spirit suddenly goes from a challenge to successfully summon (let alone bind) to possibly becoming an instant brain melter. Drain is not that easy to get more dice to resist, and if someone goes to the trouble to sustain Increase Attribute spells for their Drain stats they're either suffering -4 to the summoning and/or binding or they have to have invested significant resources into appropriately powered Sustaining Foci for those spells.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2013, 10:44 PM
And that is certainly a valid opinion. I happen to disagree with it. If you are capable of summoning a Force 8+ spirit casually at our table, you have EARNED it, not been created with the ability to do so out of the gate. *shrug*
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 14 2013, 11:08 PM
And if you've gone to that kind of preparation (which is what it takes to do that all that casually due to Drain issues), you have earned being able to.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 12:24 AM
AS I said... So, The Edge expenditure should not bother you then. *shrug*
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 12:32 AM
It still does because if they're always spending Edge to resist, then there's a pretty good chance that even that level of preparation won't help because while the preparation helps with the Drain, the summoning/binding pools aren't any better and suddenly with the Edge expenditure the spirit blows the summoner's pool out the water. Basically the Edge expenditure if done too much can make taking the Drain for no real benefit--failing to successfully summon the spirit--more likely. That is the problem.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 12:34 AM
Uh.
Great Dragons, by RAW, have Magic 12.
Check the Friends and Foes section of the core book.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 12:35 AM
Great Dragons, by RAW, have Magic 12.
Check the Friends and Foes section of the core book.
I think he's trying to say Lofwyr and Hestaby represent the majority of Great Dragons in Magic rating... *facepalms at that thought*
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 12:47 AM
Also, a GD only has 26 dice to resist drain, which if you're facing down 26DV worth of even stun drain, you're facing down 17 boxes of damage (pro-tip: GD's by the book have 15 boxes on their stun track).
And that's just summoning. For binding you'd have to drop Force down to 10 and face the same amount of drain.
Oh, and that's before the spirit adds edge to any of these tests.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 12:56 AM
And that's just summoning. For binding you'd have to drop Force down to 10 and face the same amount of drain.
Oh, and that's before the spirit adds edge to any of these tests.
Which adds up to deep fried Great Dragon brains for dinner just because they tried to summon a spirit. (Lofwyr and Hestaby notwithstanding, those two might be able to handle it, but I wouldn't bet on it)
Posted by: Faelan Feb 15 2013, 01:01 AM
Hestaby maybe not but Lofwyr's Initiate Level could easily be taken as average.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 01:14 AM
Slight correction:
The 26 DV was after Edge, but only on a summoning for a F20. 31DV if I account for average number of additional successes from exploding 6s. Only ~13DV not including edge.
Binding would average out to about 46 DV (including edge & exploding 6s).
Which does pretty much work out to "dead or unconscious dragon."
(46DV resisted by 26 dice on average works out to "3 boxes shy of overflow" assuming it was all stun)
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 01:15 AM
Except that the "average" Great Dragon is printed in the Friends and Foes chapter of the SR4A core book. Both of those two would be rather exceptional even among Greats.
Posted by: O'Ryan Feb 15 2013, 01:21 AM
Great Dragons, by RAW, have Magic 12.
Check the Friends and Foes section of the core book.
Yeeeeees.... the Great Dragons in the core book have magic 12. I think this was propaganda put out by the GDs (Probably Hualpa) themselves to get everyone else to underestimate them. It is ludicrous in my mind that a being that's been around, actively doing stuff for hundreds or thousands of years to have never initiated.
Lofywr is in the 20s, Hestaby in the 30s, and I would imagine some of the others above even that. Dunno about the rest of them, but 12 seems a bit low, even if it is RAW, to base any assumptions on GDs on.
*Not to say that a force 20 spirit wouldn't be a drain, but certainly not melting faces. Hestaby has a Great Form force 20 after all, that sources say she uses to mix cocktails.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 01:21 AM
Correctamundo.
Dragons are already granted initiations (normal dragons have MAG = ESS and ESS = 6+1d6). Oddly great dragons are not granted a random factor, it's simply ESS = 12.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 01:29 AM
Lofywr is in the 20s, Hestaby in the 30s, and I would imagine some of the others above even that. Dunno about the rest of them, but 12 seems a bit low, even if it is RAW, to base any assumptions on GDs on.
*Not to say that a force 20 spirit wouldn't be a drain, but certainly not melting faces. Hestaby has a Great Form force 20 after all, that sources say she uses to mix cocktails.
All of the named ones have more than 12, sure. Look at it this way, the dragons that have just achieved Great Dragon status (which precludes any of the ones named so far in the stories) probably do have stats pretty close to those in the core book, but that isn't the point. The point is that TJ's house rule causes brain melting on anything up to and including the Great Dragon in the core book.
Posted by: O'Ryan Feb 15 2013, 01:35 AM
Fair enough.
Posted by: Faelan Feb 15 2013, 01:36 AM
Dragons are already granted initiations (normal dragons have MAG = ESS and ESS = 6+1d6). Oddly great dragons are not granted a random factor, it's simply ESS = 12.
Their Essence is 12 and Magic is 12 without Initiation. Dragons continue to grow as they age, at a certain point they are deemed to be Great Dragons. There is no indication of Initiation anywhere in the entry in the Core Book.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 01:42 AM
True, there isn't. Although it seems odd that dragons are the only critter which have more than 6 essence.
I've always treated it as a shorthand for initiations, due to the relationship Essence, Magic, and Initiations have.
Posted by: Faelan Feb 15 2013, 01:45 AM
Any Great Dragon is by its very nature going to have a name. TJ's house rule is essentially a matter of RAI vs. RAW. People always cry about high force spirits ruining their game, well making a spirit automatically resist with edge under certain circumstances solves that problem. As to a Great Dragon having difficulty, sure if he is allowing those sets of circumstances to rule or if he chooses not to use Twist Fate and negate the edge use.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 01:48 AM
Here's the thing.
Force 4+ does not "ruin the game."
Force "above your magic rating" ruins the game. And that already hurts you pretty bad to summon them, and is out of reach of most PCs to bind (by RAW, no edge involved*).
(Well, objectively speaking, there's a critical threshold on some spirit abilities, due to the way the rules are written, that end up breaking things in other ways. But for the most part these aren't a problem until Force 7+)
*Force 7 rolls 14 dice. The mage rolls 6 MAG + 6 Binding = 12 dice, looking for more successes. On average, that's going to be nil.
Posted by: Faelan Feb 15 2013, 01:49 AM
I've always treated it as a shorthand for initiations, due to the relationship Essence, Magic, and Initiations have.
Essence has no relationship to Initiations. That is the biggest clue. As to it being odd for Dragons, well not really considering the connection to Earthdawn, the Dragons book for that game line goes into a lot of stuff, and even Fan Pro did Dragons of the Sixth World which used a lot of lore from that book. Dragons clearly hold a unique spot in the SR ecology that is still not entirely clear because they have hidden or rather covered up so many things, and anyone who knows anything ain't talking, well except maybe our little lunatic IE who has decided to wage all out war on dragon kind.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 01:53 AM
MAG = ESS + INI
As ini rises, so does magic. Ess for dragons is irrelevant as there are ZERO cybernetic or bio enhancements they can receive. Essence also has NO basis for being RANDOM.
That's the relationship I'm talking about (collapsing ESS + INI to just ESS as a shortcut).
Posted by: Faelan Feb 15 2013, 01:54 AM
Force 4+ does not "ruin the game."
Force "above your magic rating" ruins the game. And that already hurts you pretty bad to summon them, and is out of reach of most PCs to bind.
(Well, objectively speaking, there's a critical threshold on some spirit abilities, due to the way the rules are written, that end up breaking things in other ways. But for the most part these aren't a problem until Force 7+)
I pretty much run spirits the same way in my game, and well it leads to spirits being more meaningful parts of the game. I really don't get the idea of GD's somehow being screwed by it.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 02:08 AM
Force 4+ does not "ruin the game."
Force "above your magic rating" ruins the game. And that already hurts you pretty bad to summon them, and is out of reach of most PCs to bind (by RAW, no edge involved*).
(Well, objectively speaking, there's a critical threshold on some spirit abilities, due to the way the rules are written, that end up breaking things in other ways. But for the most part these aren't a problem until Force 7+)
*Force 7 rolls 14 dice. The mage rolls 6 MAG + 6 Binding = 12 dice, looking for more successes. On average, that's going to be nil.
Never said it did... I said that we tend to limit the Force of spirits in play by having them spend Edge if they are Force 4+. You can still summon Force 6-8 Spirits in the game, and we have had a mage or two do so in dire need (One at force 7 and one at Force
. But it limits the occurrences of such spirits greatly, which is the intent. Otherwise, you have characters starting play with Force 10 spirits, which is a common occurrence apparently for many here on Dumpshock. Well, guess what... We do not have that problem in our game. *shrug*Your Numbers are off, though. From what I have seen here on Dumpshock, the Summoner build has 6 Summoning, 6 Magic, Mentor Bonus (+2), Power Focus Bonus (+4, commonly stated to be stupid if you do not have this) and Specialty (+2). That equals 20 Dice (18 for Binding)... Imagine That. You can effectively go up to Force 10 (with that DP) at our table and have the opportunity to actually succeed at your summoning, and Force 6 for a Solid Binding. And if you are using the craziness: 9+9 for Base Drain is 18 Dice (Assuming you are a Human with Max 9's). With a bit of Karma, you can add in a few points of Initiation and a Centering Focus/Centering Metamagic, and you are well over 20 DP for Drain.
So, even with Spirits spending Edge you can conceivably summon a Force 10 Spirit. But you know what? It ain't so common at our table, and we do not even need house rules to accomplish that. We just allow the Spirits to use Edge. And you know what? We do not have spirit issues in our game, and there are TONS of spirits in play. Just not Force 6+, most of the time. They are in the Force 1-5 (Average of Force 3, I would bet) range. Which is where they should be, in my opinion, more often than not. *shrug*
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 02:09 AM
As ini rises, so does magic. Ess for dragons is irrelevant as there are ZERO cybernetic or bio enhancements they can receive. Essence also has NO basis for being RANDOM.
That's the relationship I'm talking about (collapsing ESS + INI to just ESS as a shortcut).
Which is an Assumption on your part, but not rules. *shrug*
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 02:10 AM
Indeed... Spirits are an extremely meaningful part of the game, they are just not ridiculous.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 02:17 AM
How? The only way to start play with bound spirits is to pay a number of BP equal to the services they owe you, and their Force is equal to your Magic rating. I guess if you're doing like 1200 to 1500 karma Karma Generation it could be possible, but at that point you're creating advanced characters so they should have commensurately higher abilities and resources at their disposal.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 02:26 AM
Ummmm... Easy... Play Starts, you summon a Force 10 Spirit. Never said that they were Bound Spirits.
Done... Play has started and you have a Force 10 Spirit.
And look, no advanced options... this is right out of character creation. And you can do this all day, since if the Spirit does not spend edge, he is likely to only get about 3.33 successes (on Average). You do not see this sillyness at our table when play begins, but it is apparently not that uncommon for this to happen at tables frequented by many Dumpshockers, from their own testimony. And they then complain that this is broken.
Again, we do not have this issue. The Edge expenditure completely solves this issue 100%. *Shrug*
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 02:37 AM
Done... Play has started and you have a Force 10 Spirit.
And look, no advanced options... this is right out of character creation. And you can do this all day, since if the Spirit does not spend edge, he is likely to only get about 3.33 successes (on Average). You do not see this sillyness at our table when play begins, but it is apparently not that uncommon for this to happen at tables frequented by many Dumpshockers, from their own testimony. And they then complain that this is broken.
Again, we do not have this issue. The Edge expenditure completely solves this issue 100%. *Shrug*
They probably complain that it's "broken" after the GM sends one after them.
It doesn't "solve" anything. It's "fixing" something that isn't actually "broken" with a sledge hammer rather than a screwdriver, and it creates other problems--namely brain melting Drain where the Drain shouldn't be brain melting.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 03:31 AM
I do believe I stated as such.
"Always been my interpretation." I didn't even try to claim that anyone else thought the same way.
Posted by: darthmord Feb 15 2013, 05:55 AM
Lofywr is in the 20s, Hestaby in the 30s, and I would imagine some of the others above even that. Dunno about the rest of them, but 12 seems a bit low, even if it is RAW, to base any assumptions on GDs on.
*Not to say that a force 20 spirit wouldn't be a drain, but certainly not melting faces. Hestaby has a Great Form force 20 after all, that sources say she uses to mix cocktails.
One of the Denver Missions episodes has Ghostwalker (aka: Doll-Maker, best dragon spirit summoner from the 4th age) listed as having a Magic score of 24 with an untold number of initiations along with several quickened spells.
As an aside, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to see that Dragons have metamagics that make it easier for them to summon exceptionally strong Spirits. I've seen it often alluded that Dragons (particularly Greats) have metamagics that are not known to the common populace.
Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 15 2013, 06:05 AM
Done... Play has started and you have a Force 10 Spirit.
And look, no advanced options... this is right out of character creation. And you can do this all day, since if the Spirit does not spend edge, he is likely to only get about 3.33 successes (on Average). You do not see this sillyness at our table when play begins, but it is apparently not that uncommon for this to happen at tables frequented by many Dumpshockers, from their own testimony. And they then complain that this is broken.
Again, we do not have this issue. The Edge expenditure completely solves this issue 100%. *Shrug*
Right out of character creation you also wouldn't have all that stuff you mentioned for resisting the Drain, which means that you're applying the house rule for nothing, as the Drain resistance bonuses are what is really necessary when dealing with high Force spirits. You said that if the player earns the ability to summon those spirits casually they should be able to do so, but with your house rule, even with all that Increase Attribute casting and bonding two Sustaining Foci to get out of the sustaining penalties (all that preparation is earning that ability) the character STILL wouldn't be able to reliably pull it off, and thus he isn't getting what he has earned.
Posted by: Falconer Feb 15 2013, 07:44 AM
And it's not just a matter of fluff.... it is actually encouraged by the rules... sidebar page 189.
"Most spirits resent attempts to bind them, as it turns the relationship between magician and spirit from a short-term contract between equals (or near equals) to a forced servitude for an extended period of time. ... A bound spirit can e forced to harm itself to further the magician's ends- ... binding spirits, then has far higher potentil for turning nasty than simple summoning does- especially if the spirit becomes uncontrolled."
That's why I disagree with TJ... 4+ is just too simplistic and arbitrary... and really rather weak spirits... especially if the spirit is weaker or equal in strength to the mage. A summoning may very well not be fought heavily... while a binding will be fought tooth and nail. It doesn't reflect the relative power of the mage... and even worse... if *EVERY* spirit is going to edge anyhow... I'm far more likely to simply burn spirits who do it excessively into a cinder by having them lose force to power my effects and kill them. The mage can retaliate and retaliate hard...
Edging to resist shouldn't be a guarantee... it should be a viable threat... carried through with discretion... not blindly applied to anything 4+. It shouldn't be a certainty or an uncertainty... just more likely the bigger the spirit gets...
Onto the rest....
Many problems here as well in other posts... just because you *CAN* raise magic to whatever your essence is without initiating... doesn't mean you should. Initiations are too damn useful (and CHEAP!)... It's highly likely the dragon has initations equal to half it's magic score as just a very rough guestimate... (look at all the metamagics... pick 6 and you get some very useful basic and advanced ones). Things like centering are too useful.
GD's aren't just a matter of age in SR... there is some magical ritual which is part of it if I remember the lore properly.
Ancient dragons from the last age are nowhere near the basic stats here... I think others are right a GD in the main book reflects an anonymous 'newly minted' lesser great.
Ancient dragons are the only ones mentioned with force 20 spirits bound... it's fairly safe to say that a magic 12 dragon is not that suicidal.
Exploding 6's aren't the threat on edging summons resists... it's the reroll failures use of edge... though you could o with exploding 6's and edge in advance if you want to go for pure luck and it can potentially work more... it's just a far bigger issue of 'luck'.
Also don't forgot is a GD has edge control powers... he can spend edge to 'negate' the spending of edge of the spirit... or worse.. to make the spirit reroll all it's successes after edge. The spirit edging is likely to simply only annoy/piss the GD off who may retaliate by sending a spirit or few to the spirits home plane to kill it permanently if it does somehow resist... or worse... succeed in the binding then force the spirit to kill itself by bleeding it's power to sustain something and lose a point of force per day until dead. (a GD might not care about his reputation with spirits... in a might makes right world... if that's their worldview). Yes... the GD even a force 12 can simply look at the spirit and laugh... you got 20 successes to resist... reroll all 20 and bring it down to a mere 7... for trivial amounts of drain in comparison! (and a *LOT* more services owed! far better than edging to reroll extra drain dice!)
But ignoring that...
But a big great like lofwyr (forget his initiate... but IIRC his magic was in the mid-20's... so I'll guess 20). Lofwyr focused far more on physical stats and physical stats than raw magical power like hestaby did... but he also focused very highly on logic and smarts which is also likely his drain stat. (it was in the high 30's if I recall correctly with willpower not that far behind, literally it's the highest logic score I've ever seen in game... which I kinda dislike as it puts it in the realm of completely alien intelligence so far beyond that I don't think any of the writers/plots can do it proper justice).
Force 20 spirit... rolls 20 dice on bind... round up 8 successes... 4 more from reroll edge... 12 total... 24 drain. Vs. 20 centering + 30+ logic + 30'ish wil== 80 dice... even without edge... the dragon is likely to soak that up... then merely rest an hour to remove stun before doing binding. (I always figured with attributes so high they already reflect quickened spells raising them to those levels; and an increase spell therefor won't do anymore... but as seen below... it's not even needed).
Okay... 40 dice to resist... once again... 13.. + 9 edge.. 22 successes... 44 drain average... Once again... with edge spent on drain highly likely to be fully resisted. Similarly... GD is probably like to simply bargain with high force spirits.
Outcome: the rules work fine... it is perfectly plausible and viable for the biggest of the big to successfully summon and bind force 20 spirits. Though it's foolhardy and suicidal for anything lesser. The force 20 example though is not a good one as that is exceptional in the extreme.
Posted by: NiL_FisK_Urd Feb 15 2013, 08:39 AM
Also, any GD could just use twist fate and undo the spirits edge expenditure.
Posted by: Falconer Feb 15 2013, 09:09 AM
I had that in the post above Nil... not only that negating a use of edge is the weakest use of the GD's powers....
The latter half was simply to demonstrate that with the hugely inflated pools of some of the named GDs they could manage to soak even the heavy drain of a taxing binding like that.
But the nastiest use is the spirit is summoned gets 13 out of 40... rerolls the failures with edge and gets up to 21. The GD then spends edge and has all the *successes* rerolled... now instead of 21... the spirit only has 7'ish... the GD nets 14 extra services... and cuts the drain by a third.
Posted by: Halinn Feb 15 2013, 10:16 AM
I've always treated it as a shorthand for initiations, due to the relationship Essence, Magic, and Initiations have.
True drakes have 8 essence.
But a big great like lofwyr (forget his initiate... but IIRC his magic was in the mid-20's... so I'll guess 20). Lofwyr focused far more on physical stats and physical stats than raw magical power like hestaby did... but he also focused very highly on logic and smarts which is also likely his drain stat. (it was in the high 30's if I recall correctly with willpower not that far behind, literally it's the highest logic score I've ever seen in game... which I kinda dislike as it puts it in the realm of completely alien intelligence so far beyond that I don't think any of the writers/plots can do it proper justice).
48 total drain resist dice, 27 magic. Hestaby's slightly better than that. When considering the drain for greats and IEs, don't forget that they probably have the centering metamagic on top of their insane amount of initiations, though (not mentioned in ol' Golden Snout's writeup, but there is a bunch of his somewhat undefined amount that are not specified).
Harlequin also has a great form force 20, but again, centering makes the drain somewhat survivable.
Posted by: Thanee Feb 15 2013, 10:37 AM
That's not a bad idea.
I generally disallow summoning/binding of Force > Magic entirely, but this might also work, though - I guess - the difference is minor at best.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 01:41 PM
In SR3. True Drakes don't exist in SR4.
Posted by: NiL_FisK_Urd Feb 15 2013, 02:56 PM
In SR4, they are in Clutch of the Dragons.
Posted by: Draco18s Feb 15 2013, 03:01 PM
And that's what I get for not owning a splatbook that was published two years after the last game I played...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 05:07 PM
"Always been my interpretation." I didn't even try to claim that anyone else thought the same way.
Ahh... Sorry, Missed that.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2013, 05:17 PM
It doesn't "solve" anything. It's "fixing" something that isn't actually "broken" with a sledge hammer rather than a screwdriver, and it creates other problems--namely brain melting Drain where the Drain shouldn't be brain melting.
Nope... NPC's are held to the same standard. *shrug*
The HIGHEST Force spirit we have ever run into is a Force 10 Free Spirit, and 3 Force 8's (In the Zero Zone we attacked). Everything else is also in the Force 1-5 range, with the occasional Force 6.
It solves the problem of players breaking the game with Spirits, which we do not have at our table, and many others complain of having at theirs. And we do so with the rules as they are written. Maybe you should ask your self why we don't have the problems that others complain about instead of assuming that we are casuing issues through our "Fix." *shrug*
Posted by: Tiralee Feb 16 2013, 02:03 PM
It's just me, but I automatically calculated out what would be required for a F12 Power Foci using the SR3 rules....
[eyes bleeding] YEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssh! Yeah. Like that's going to happen. That's the magic version of having THOR shot on call.
Not to mention the TN's for designing it yourself, or the library/lodge you'd need...yerk.
-Tir
Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 16 2013, 03:12 PM
Make it a weapon focus and you got Mjolnir?
Posted by: Mantis Feb 16 2013, 09:46 PM
[eyes bleeding] YEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssh! Yeah. Like that's going to happen. That's the magic version of having THOR shot on call.
Not to mention the TN's for designing it yourself, or the library/lodge you'd need...yerk.
-Tir
So now we know it is highly unlikely no matter what version you are playing. But hey at least in third you got a karma pool so it might be possible. With loaded dice
.Posted by: Irion Feb 23 2013, 04:49 PM
To make it "if the force of the spirit is higher than your own magic" does not fix anything. It only delays the point at which you have to deal with the problem.
The point is, that a Magic 10 mage might be able to summone a force 20 spirit, but this again is very risky even without edge.
The higher your magic, the closer the Force you can summon without risking your life to your magic.
Talking about binding, the effect is even much worse.
A magic 10 mage is very unlikely to bind a force 12 spirit. (Not talking about the time it takes to do it. Without sleep regulator Force 24 is a quite a dead end anyway)
Binding is in general not the real problem. It is summoning.
Of course it is hard if spirits over 4 start spending edge.
Just make two changes to soften it up.
Edge for Spirits: Force/2
Spirits ADD it before the roll and don't use it to reroll. (This would make binding too hard, even for force 6)
So lets take a look at an force 8 spirit. (Those are quite powerfull. I would say they can kill a mundane runner up to 100 Karma (and fitting gear, not delta for one billion) on their own.
To summon this spirit:
The spirit resists with 8+4=12 dice (of those 1 out of 6 is rerolled on the avarage. Bringing it up to around 14 to 15 dice). So lets be nice and say 15 with 5 hits.
That means to summon him you should have at least 20 dice in your summoning pool. Thats doable.
And you should be able to resist at least 8 points of drain.
You might need to spend edge but this is doable for a mage with 80 Karma. Considering the mayham this spirt can cause... I guess it is more than a fair deal.
To bind it you need first of all 8 hours and some materials.
Now the spirit will resist with around 20 dice (with rerolls around 24).
So you should have at least 30 dice in your summoning pool and you should be able to resist around 11 points of drain...
Thats probably possible for a 140 Karma mage.
What this rule does is, that it closes the gap between summoning and binding an inch and making both a bit harder.
Right now a 50 Karma mage can easily summon a force 12 spirit (if it is not using edge). But to bind it, would still require a lot more Karma. (The spirit would have the same dicepool to resist as the force 8 spirit after the rules above)
@Powerfocus
Well, it is possible to buy it if you are a shame/face at the same time. You have to consider the fact, that street cred ads to your dicepool. So having an increase Charisma spell sustained for 9 to 12 charisma, 6+2 from your skill helps a lot. If i am not misstaken contacts may help too. Now, you still need a good edge attribute. The high Karmacosts mean, that you need at least 150 Karma to even go there. (You won't get around to spend some on your way.)
You may end up with at 9+8+X(Situational bonus, contacts, mentorspirit etc. pp)+15 street cred= 22 dice +x. To make things simple lets say 25.
Use edge to reroll and you get around 13 hits on your first roll.
The 10. roll (with reducing the dicepool) will still offer around 5 hits.
That means you will have made it around week 7 to 8....
Granted, if you do not have an high edge attribute (5 to 6) , well you probably need 10 weeks...
So by the rules, it ain't a problem. If you let a "real" face handle the job, (s)he will get it for you in about 3 to 4 weeks, probably.
Binding does not require a test.
Creating the focus is much harder, with the decreasing dicepool. It is not depending on time but on rolls.
That means something like 144 hits is highly unlikely unless you get 30 dice or more. How to get them at this test, without spending insane amounts of Karma...
Posted by: Falconer Feb 23 2013, 05:53 PM
I suggest you look at the 'spirits and edge' section of street magic.
It pretty much suggests that spirits will spend edge if they're more powerful than the summoner to resist. That's where our house rule is based off of. Also why I disagree with the blanket... anything over force 4 edges.
Also... depending on how much the summoner (ab)uses the spirits under their care should come into play as well... these are supposed to be RP'ed NPC's after all. Alien to this world but still NPC's. Similarly in the core rule book... is further proof that spirits are far more likely to fight a binding than a summoning as it radically changes the nature of the summoner/spirit relationship (uncontrolled spirits sidebar).
By the time you have magic 8 or 9 mages wandering around in a game... a spirit of 8-9 isn't going to be a huge issue compared to the amount of power creep already in that game.
Posted by: Irion Feb 23 2013, 08:24 PM
@Falconer
My argument is, that the "spirit uses edge if force is higher than magic" helps a lot in the early game. There a mage will probably only have a magic attribute of 4 or 5, depending on the build.
But as soon as you leave this area and he increases his magic it gets less and less usefull.
Force 20 spirit will probably be never anything you have to worry about, but a force 8 spirit is bad enough at it is.
They tend to have around attributes a bit over the 8 and skills at 8, giving them quite high reaction rolls, good chances to hit something etc.
This ruling makes the magic attribute even more important than it is right now. It is allready the most powerful attribute in the game.
In addition to that it makes everything over your magic attribute just impossible to bind and very hard to summon..
Well, it depends. Magic 8 from 5 are 105 Karma. The question is how much money you give per point of Karma. If it is 5000, there won't be such a power creep. 505000 nuyen, well thats twice your starting gear as a sam... (minus the money you used up for lifestyle etc.)
It can get you something and you will probably bring down a force 8 spirit with it. (But again this depends on what kind of spirit we are talking about and how the spirit acts and how you handle surprise tests etc.)
A stupid spirit is quite easy to defeat, if you interpret the rules against the spirit. A spirit acting smart, an other kind of problem. It really depends on how you read the rules and how you roleplay a beeing with logic 8 and intuition 8.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)