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Posted by: meatpuppet Feb 19 2013, 03:29 PM

Hey there,

First time poster (and I apologize in advance for my english as it is not my first language)

About a week before 5e was announced, I bought a copy of Shadowrun 20th anniversary rulebook. I don't have much experience with Shadowrun but after 20+ years of D&D and 5+ years of Warhammer 40k rpg, it looked like the way to go...

But with a new edition on the horizon which seem to adress a lot of "problems", I'm at a bit of loss. My RPG budget is not what it used to be and I just can't buy books for both editions, the one we choose will be the one we will be playing for the next few years.

So what do all you experienced Shadowrunner's think, is the next edition worth the wait?

Should I store away my SR4A core rulebook and wait a few months for 5e or should I just buy the 4e core supplements (which are getting harder to find) and start playing now?

Thanks

Btw I also posted this on the Catalyst game forums but I wanted to have Dumpshock's opinion on the matter

Posted by: bannockburn Feb 19 2013, 03:33 PM

My magic eightball says: Cloudy, with a chance of meat popsicles.

Or, in other words: No one knows what 5th edition will bring apart from a few snippets from the dev blog.
One thing you can take for granted, though: The core books will take some time, so either way you'll be stuck with just the basic rulebook.

Ask your friends if they want to start playing now. It's still a lot of time until summer, and those months can be used for play

The core supplements for SR4 are quite easy to find, as you can buy them all in PDF format on drivethrurpg.com or battlesomething (I keep forgetting)

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 19 2013, 03:35 PM

It's to early to call whether 5e will be any good, so it all really depends on patient you are.

Posted by: Faelan Feb 19 2013, 04:00 PM

I would probably go with 4th edition. It will take some time for 5th edition to get real support. Meanhwile you have a vast product line available a whole lot of which you can find on Ebay. Especially if you wait for most of your purchases until after 5th comes out, then you will probably see a price dip as some gamers get rid of their 4th edition stuff. Regardless you shoul dbe able to stretch your money further.

Posted by: DamHawke Feb 19 2013, 04:04 PM

Welcome to dumpshock

Like Lionhearted says its a little too early to tell. It would probably be best to just go with 4e for now since you already got the core book and
there's already loads of awesome supplemental material that 5e won't get till much much later.

Posted by: hermit Feb 19 2013, 04:13 PM

As a general rule, I'd not recommend switching editions in Shadowrun unless the core rules book and all core expansions (Magic, Matrix, guns, augmentations, misc.) are out. Stay with 4E. It works reasonably well, and as Hawke and others say, it has a ton of supplements.

Posted by: Epicedion Feb 19 2013, 04:18 PM

I spent like $80 and bought all the good SR3 books. Check those out.

Posted by: meatpuppet Feb 19 2013, 05:16 PM

Thanks for all your replies

Well I'm torn, some have told me to wait for 5e others to stick with SR4A.

Like I said, I am not very familiar with the rules (yet) and what I have skimmed through doesn't seem too intimidating, but the more I read on the web about "broken" Matrix rules, difficult character creation and other stuff about 4e, the more I am inclined to wait for 5e which announces itself as the panacea for all of Shadowrun's problems. I know it is a marketing racket, but still the design goals seem to please some of you hardcore Shadowrunners.

I'm an old geezer and I prefer my books in print, but with Arsenal & Street Magic I think I"ll have no choice to go digital, here in Canada these books are difficult to find at a decent price.

Posted by: bannockburn Feb 19 2013, 05:26 PM

Of course the new product is praised as the best thing since the invention of the wheel. But it's also a bit flimsy to just judge from reading the design goals and you can bet that there will be an entirely new sets of problems
I'm not saying that to knock 5E, but it's the nature of the beast. There will always be new problems.
If you wait for 5E, and only have the core book, that's no big problem either.
I'd advise you to take your SR4a core book and play with just that one. It works fine. Should you then feel the need to expand, you can still decide to either wait for new products or buy the old stuff

In regards to reading complaints on the web: Take that with a grain of salt. Or better yet, plenty of salt. It's also the nature of the internet to mostly find threads that refer to problem. People that do not have problems, do not make threads to announce "Hey, everything's peachy keen!"
The system works, the character creation is easy, even the matrix works, but you'll have to put some effort in to learn them, just as the rest of the rulebook


Don't get me wrong. I like dead trees better, too. Live trees are for pointy eared dandelion eaters, after all
But it makes it easier to get those books, especially with shipping problems between the US and Canada (well, that's what I've heard at least. I live in neither of these nations) in regards to ebay. And it IS a convenient way to find books that you can't get in print. No one's keeping you from printing them, as well, but that would probably be expensive. Still, a pdf is usually cheaper than the print version.
Just food for thought

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 19 2013, 05:40 PM

One thing you might not know, being new to Shadowrun, is that it isn't like D&D where you HAVE to buy three books in order to do anything. The 20th aniversary book you've got contains chunks of the sort of content you'd expect from a players guide, a dungeon masters guide, and a monster manual all smooshed in there.

Though I do think things work better if you at least get Arsenal and Street Magic as well.

There are also some free official adventures that can really help out the new GM
http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads-season-1/
(There are other seasons up as well that you can just get free).

Also:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/one-shot-adventures/

One other thing to consider is that, unlike other game systems, Shadowrun has not historically pushed the reset button when they put out a new edition. They just advance the timeline a bit, which intruduces new bits of plot, gear, and magic, and then they tweak how the rules work. Often they provide special resources for the purpose of converting your campaign "smoothly" into the new edition should you choose to do so.

Many of the old books stay quite applicable, as opposed to becoming kindling as soon as you switch to a new edition. In the SR community there has always been a market for the old books. I recall that when I'd travel around and I'd visit a game store I'd ask if they had any old SR stuff hiding somewhere. I see that I must not have been the only one doing that as they are now converting the old books to PDF and selling them.

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't worry about having fourth edition books and then wanting to play fifth edition. You should worry about if you're going to be able to get your hands on 1st edition books should you get that itch. (Sorry, you can't have my copies of Shadowbeat, Spraw Sites, or Harlequin/Harlequins Back )


So go ahead and play now with what you've got, maybe add a few books but don't buy up everything if you're worried, and then check out the reviews for fifth edition and consider switching over if your players or you really want what it offers or have played enough 4e that you want something fresh.

EDIT: I went over to check out what the prices were for stuff to compare to the costs of movie tickets and whatnot. It looks like they've seriously reduced the price of the 4th edition pdfs and bundle deals. You can deck yourself out for a fourth edition game on the cheap!

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 19 2013, 05:46 PM

Yes the basebook got everything you need to play, while the supplements adds more options and depth to systems.

Posted by: Epicedion Feb 19 2013, 06:27 PM

Do they still make First Run in new editions? If they do, get that in whatever edition you're playing in. Shadowrun is notoriously bad at telling GMs how to run games -- how hard to make things, how to build reasonable but not over the top security, etc. First Run is a nice little way to gauge these sorts of things, and can be a big help for creating your own runs.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 19 2013, 06:31 PM

Think there was a short module released together with 4E...

Posted by: hermit Feb 19 2013, 07:13 PM

There's the http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/, which are very well written small adventures that are, mostly, available for free. Even the current season isn't asking for much in terms of money. $4 an adventure isn't much to ask, and they're professionally made (more so, I must say, than some actual published adventures).

Posted by: yesferatu Feb 19 2013, 07:57 PM

4th has been my favorite of the series by far.
You could easily use the 20th Anniversary as core indefinitely.
There will probably be demos of 5th available eventually and you can always make the switch later.
I love 4th and I am really really skeptical of any "improvements" in 5th.

Posted by: Neurosis Feb 19 2013, 08:03 PM

You could try playing SR4A without the supplements. That'd be my honest recommendation, considering your financial situation. I mean, you already bought SR4A, you should play it!

Note this is coming from one of the guys on the writing team for fifth edition <3.

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 19 2013, 08:48 PM

Funny enough, I'm in a bit of the same situation as you are, as I started my first SR campaign last summer using 4th, and I have to determine what the hell I'm going to do regarding 5th.

So you could do what my plan is: run 4th for as long as possible, even as 5th is getting released, and once you feel like you got a good grasp on 5th and if you like 5th enough to run it, figure out a way to transition from 4th to 5th.

Hopefully they'll release something that'll show how to convert SR4 characters to SR5 characters...

Posted by: hermit Feb 19 2013, 09:50 PM

Wait and see. Seriously, there is no point whatsoever to convert your game to 5th before you know what it's all about, and whether you even like it.

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 19 2013, 10:40 PM

^ Not sure if that was directed at me, but I did say in my other post: "If you feel like you got a good grasp of 5th and like it enough to run it".

If not...huh?

Posted by: hermit Feb 19 2013, 10:45 PM

Was directed at the OP.

Posted by: pbangarth Feb 19 2013, 10:56 PM

Meatpuppet, I assume from your original post that you are from Québec. There are a few Dumpshock members from Montreal and/or Québec City who may be able to sell you 4E books if they switch.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 19 2013, 11:02 PM

It's entirely up to you, but if you stick with 4th, ignore the people touting core book only, and go whole hog. It may be possible to play with just the core book, but enjoyment of the game is diminished with each source book that is not used (this goes for all games).

Personally, I'd say get the main source books for 4th--Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Street Magic and Runner's Companion--and wait a while before going to 5th if you decide to do so, as it will probably be quite a while before there's enough out for 5th for it to really be all that enjoyable to actually play.

Posted by: meatpuppet Feb 20 2013, 01:20 AM

What a great community

Your input is greatly appreciated

I think we will stick with 4e. I just found print versions of Augmentation, Unwired & Runner's Companion online for about 30 bucks each, so what is the general consensus on these books?

Posted by: bannockburn Feb 20 2013, 01:26 AM

If you're going to expand, Augmentation and RC are a must-have, IMO, for the expanded options alone.
Unwired is handy, but not necessary. I have a dedicated hacker in my group and apart from the equipment, we don't use UW that much at all.

Posted by: Halinn Feb 20 2013, 01:29 AM

I have yet to hear anyone badmouth Augmentation. There are a few elements in Unwired that get a heated debate going every once in a while. There seems to be a small majority that heavily dislikes the "Advanced Character Concepts" chapter in Runner's Companion (most AIs and Free Spirits).
Majority opinion on them is that they're quite nice in the options they offer. Unwired expands quite a bit on everything matrix, Runner's Companion adds a good deal with new qualities, lifestyle rules and karmagen, and Augmentation is basically just a gear book full of 'ware. Of the core books, I personally seem to get the most use out of Arsenal and Runner's Companion, as they have options for everybody. Street Magic is pretty nice as well, and also a book you only rarely hear complaints about.

Posted by: meatpuppet Feb 20 2013, 07:35 PM

While reading about 4e in general, I stumbled on the "Ends of the Matrix" an alternate Matrix rule system that looks & feels more streamlined.

What is Dumpshock' stance on this unofficial supplement?

Posted by: hermit Feb 20 2013, 09:02 PM

Use it if you love brainhacking. Otherwise, it's a bit better than the standard SR4 system. At least it has a sound mathematical base becase Trollman (the author) knew maths.

Posted by: meatpuppet Feb 21 2013, 01:33 AM

From what I have garnered from old threads found in this forum and the one over at Catalyst, I see most hardcore gamers don't seem too keen on brainhacking, it doesn't seem to "fit" the Shadowrun mentality.

Well back to reading my core rulebook

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 21 2013, 01:55 AM

....still have no idea why people keep harping about brainhacks, since it technically wouldn't be feasible right now in SR, unless if someone just HAPPENS to know that cyberbrains will be introduced soon.....

Posted by: hermit Feb 21 2013, 04:59 AM

Tasti, if you had actually read the rules set you'd know what I'm talking about.

Thing is, Trollman decided to make decking with just your brain viable again (it was in SR1).

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 21 2013, 05:38 AM

1.) I have no idea who Trollman is (new here, remember?)

2.) What, in the vanilla SR4a rules? If so, there is nothing that indicates brain-hacking.

Source please, other wise I have no reason to believe you.

Posted by: hermit Feb 21 2013, 05:43 AM

The topic right now is Trollman's alternative Matrix rules, see post #26. Being new is one thing, not reading what you reply to and then complaining about posters 'harping' about the current topic is something else.

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 21 2013, 05:50 AM

...and nothing about post #26 hinted that Trollman was the author of said rules. At all. And there was no way that I could have inferred that.

Last I checked, I'm not psychic.

Posted by: toturi Feb 21 2013, 05:55 AM

Well, if you read the post after #26, you'd see hermit attributing it to Mr Trollman.

Last I checked, you could have simply scrolled down and read.

Posted by: tasti man LH Feb 21 2013, 06:16 AM

*blinks*

Da hell did I miss that?

(well, it's what I get for trying to do work AND type on a forum)

*quickly looks it up*

Oh...THAT ruleset...the one that reeked of so much bitterness that I actively decided to avoid it entirely.

*grumble*

Posted by: hermit Feb 21 2013, 01:52 PM

Sorry if I was a bit harsh, It was 5 o'clock and my allergy was keeping me up, that makes me grumpy. Yes, that rules set. And uhm. That's Trollman for you. He's very angry about a lot of things Shadowrun for a lot of reasons. Still, he's a pretty good rules designer.