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Posted by: artent Mar 7 2013, 04:59 PM

Arsenal pg. 60
"Empathy: Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behavioral
patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy soft ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
soft ware."

sounds legit, but then.....

"Empathy soft ware can be discreetly used in real time during
negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."

Wait..so I get +6 dice to all my social tests just for having this installed in my comlink at 3k with an image link? Am I missing something?

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 7 2013, 05:06 PM

no, it is that bulldrek stupid . .
it is SO MUCH of a MUST HAVE, that even old granny smith should have it running all the time . .
all it really does is make every pc and ever npc have 6 more dice in their pool . .

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 7 2013, 05:16 PM

Well, you are not installing a Rating 6 Software Package into a Low-end Comlink, either. So yes, you are missing something.
Typically, the average user will have a +2 to +3 for their Comlink. Big deal...

What is stupid are the Emotitoys. *sigh*

Posted by: DamHawke Mar 7 2013, 06:06 PM

But who wouldn't want a colourful critter sitting on their shoulder, feeding useful info to your commlink

Well, anyone who doesn't have a reputation to protect anyway.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Mar 7 2013, 06:08 PM

Right, don't forget that a program's rating is limited by the system of the commlink.

Posted by: Bearclaw Mar 7 2013, 06:15 PM

What you call a "colourful critter" I call a drone, providing an extra set of eyes and ears. Upgrade the sensors with all the hearing boosts and he makes sure you don't get snuck up on or miss any sub-vocal conversations going on. And gives you +6 to your social skills tests

At my table, we've decided the EVERYONE has Empathy software, so unless it's a special situation, like a street vendor in Lagos, we don't add those dice.

Posted by: Elfenlied Mar 7 2013, 07:34 PM

It's not more stupid or ubiquitous than the smartlink, which is also must have and extremely cheap. Just remember to have a high rating comlink. And actually use all social modifiers.

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 07:37 PM

It can.

Posted by: Modular Man Mar 7 2013, 08:01 PM

I don't think it would be that difficult to direct a hidden camera feed to the emotitoy hidden in the face's purse or backpack, so... That's were things start to get nasty.
Me, I'm thinking of anti-camera equipment for our face. Kills other emotitoys whereas hers keeps working.
Well, at least until those get houserule-hammered, which is also a slight possibility if my character starts doubling his pool (or worse, the Uncouth dude starts facing, now that he got skillwires...)

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 08:19 PM

Empathy software is available without MooDragon™. MooDragon™ makes Sadface 2.1™!

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 7 2013, 08:22 PM

MooDragon™ is your rightful overlord! Bow before his majesty!

Posted by: Critias Mar 7 2013, 08:51 PM

Though it does provide three times the die-pool benefit, FWIW.

Posted by: Falconer Mar 7 2013, 08:55 PM

Meh... I had a street sam/face tossing 12 dice with empathy included. Is that so stupidly broken?

(4cha, 4 ranks in the social skill group, 4 empathy software running on an internal only commlink; as he saw it he already had the eyes and the internal link and the skills... why not shell out for some extra software. empathy, lie detection, face recognition were the 3 he went with).

Though I agree in principle. But given how utterly ludicrous large social dice pools can get 30 dice pornomancers anyone? This is small potatoes.

Yeah stacking emotipets are the bigger problem.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 7 2013, 08:58 PM

think about it this way:
skills are by nature limited to 6.
the usual metahuman charisma is limited to 6 or less with only elves getting a 7.
basically, this bit of software is WORLD CLASS SKILL LEVEL.
OR maximum unaugmented Charisma.
And in your example, that was a 50% improvement.
The only reason people don't think this is bad is because this is not for Body or Str or Agi . .

Posted by: JanessaVR Mar 7 2013, 08:58 PM

The social consequences of this have been explored in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth_Machine. It posits that wide-scale everyday use of an unbeatable lie detector would transform society and eliminate crime (heck, when you travel anywhere, they first ask if you've broken any laws). The author saw it as utopian - I was curling up in terror.

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 09:02 PM

It's puritan utopia. Dishonesty, though, is a necessary part of communication (not just human, mind you). Social interaction is impossible otherwise. Then, all you have are data streams being processed by nodes. Some utopia.

Posted by: JanessaVR Mar 7 2013, 09:04 PM

Not arguing.

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 09:04 PM

I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_cdkpazjI is an excellent representation of empathy software at work - and possible social reactions to it, too.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 7 2013, 09:05 PM

"Honey, does this Dress make my ass look fat?" < = you lie or you die . .

Posted by: Falconer Mar 7 2013, 09:06 PM

Stahl.. yes it was a 50% improvement... But the character in question did not dumpstat charisma (soft maxed human-looking orc). Maxed out the skills in chargen (rating 4 skillgroups).

Compare above character to a full fledged pornomancer. 30 dice between adept powers... tailored pheromones, etc. etc. etc. plus empathy software. My point was that I didn't consider it a broken example running the software on an internal response 4 commlink. (no trying to cheese it out and run it right on the cybereyes for example... something I think is possible but only if the empathy is rewritten specifically to run on that model cybereye peripheral...).


Lets look at other examples though... rating 6 medkit anyone? Where's the outrage there +6 dice and use the skill untrained. There is other equipment in the game which adds it's rating 1-6 to assorted tests.


Your outrage isn't at empathy (excepting emotipets), it's at the system as a whole. Your outrage is at a system where people can easily pull twice as many dice from an attribute as the skill, then get equipment to equal the skill. So by the end of the day only a quarter of the dice are coming from skill as opposed to other sources.

SR5 is already addressing this... skills now going 1-12. Equipment becoming a precision type thing instead of extra dice is the general gist of the little we've been shown so far.

Hermit:
Yeah I loved that short film when others linked it earlier...

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 09:06 PM

Think of raising children, too, but yes, there are situations where honesty isn't a virtue, or even socially inadequate (see Stahlseele).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 7 2013, 09:24 PM

It CAN proivide up to 3x the benefit. The average user will likely only have +2 to +3. *shrug*
Whereas EVERY user gets that +2 for Smartlink.

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 09:30 PM

What, normal characters cannot afford three-digit prices anymore? A lv. 6 nonmobile MooDragon™ is 600 Nuyen ... with no Availability rating.

Posted by: Thorguild Mar 7 2013, 09:36 PM

(I should really put this in another post, but)

This is a point of cognitive dissonance for me in SR. It was less bad in Cyberpunk, where "Metal is Better than Meat" was the game's actual battlecry. This future has cybertech that are more common than autos in our world. We use autos to routinely travel 30x faster than my best sprint. Metal IS better than meat. The game wants to make meat stand a chance against metal. That's a hard row to hoe.

"The Truth Machine" is a great example. By 3/4 through, everyone had them built into common clothes, and the display went to invisible (except to the user) dots inside glasses. In a companion book, the main character routinely blocked his view of it when talking to family to give them "respectful privacy".

IRL, it isn't hard to see a future where bullets DON'T miss. Invisibly-small drones might land on you and blow you to bits with zero warning. Machines and code might read your physical state so well they know things about that YOU don't.

Circling back, though, I think the OP is really talking about how to use this game mechanic without changing the ENTIRE world like has been done in the story. Maybe just decide you don't want it in your world and ban it?

Thorguild

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 7 2013, 09:41 PM

Some people actually do question stuff that is in the books.
For example, both fluff AND crunch make it impossible to be a shadowrunner using a fake sin . .

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 09:47 PM

SINs would work a lot better if they were capped at 10, not 6.

Posted by: Garvel Mar 7 2013, 09:48 PM

No the problem is that 6 dice is for to many. If the smartgun system gave 6 dice it would be broken. If the emoti software gave 2 dice it wouldnt be broken.

And the 6 dice from the medkit are not for an opposed test, where one character rolls against another. They are for a first aid test with a treshhold that is ballanced so that the character needs a high rating medkit to have a chance to heal at least a little damage.
If you have no skill and average logic and get the usual dice modifier for bad circumstances, and a patient that is either awakened or has implants, you usually end up with 6 dice. Now you roll on average 2 succeses and have healed exactly 0 boxes of damage and wasted the chance of someone with a higher skillrating to first aid the patient succesfull. Congratulations.

That a hightech medkit gives a significant advantage at saving people is plausible. That a high end matrixprogram gives a significant advantage at hacking is plausible. That antidote gives you a significant advantage for surviving poison is plasible too. Here the six bonus dice are justified.

But 6 bonus dice for social tests which are usually opposed, thats simply too much.

As stated before that is the difference between charisma 1 and 7.
I could totally see such a program make someone with charisma 1 as succesful as someone with charisma 3. But not charisma 7. That is simply too much.

Posted by: JanessaVR Mar 7 2013, 09:51 PM

Yeah, I always had a bit of an issue with that myself. Didn't someone have a thread some years back about a revised system for fake ID, with the higher quality fakes being a lot more expensive, and taking a lot more time to setup?

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 7 2013, 09:56 PM

simple fix:
make the level of the ID the treshhold the scanner has to achieve in net hits to detect that it's fake.
just needs to make the id's much more expensive.
and the scanners too, of course.

Posted by: Garvel Mar 7 2013, 10:31 PM

We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 7 2013, 10:33 PM

I like that!
*yoink*

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 10:36 PM

That's a good fix.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Mar 7 2013, 10:40 PM

Oh, I'm going to have to suggest that to my group.



re: Empathy Software, I like to think of it as being like the CASIE aug from Deus Ex.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 7 2013, 10:41 PM

http://www.karmainferno.com/images/emotitoy.jpg




-k

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 7 2013, 10:42 PM

Jumping on the band-wagon and saying that this seems like a very good system.

Posted by: Novocrane Mar 7 2013, 11:03 PM

If someone has the emphasis "Empathy Software" in a social skill, they can effectively cut you off as you attempt to follow notes?

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 7 2013, 11:12 PM

No, it's not. Not in the slightest. In order to use Empathy Software at that rating, you have to get the most powerful Response module and System rating listed in the core book--in fact, the most powerful until the military grade versions in War! came out--and as such, you're paying far more for that bonus from the software than you are for the bonus that a smartlink grants.

Now the emotitoys could be considered a bit broken given their much cheaper price, but that's why the only thing I would use those little drones for is for 'flavor' purposes, maybe as little innocuous reconnaissance units.

Posted by: SpellBinder Mar 7 2013, 11:23 PM

Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 7 2013, 11:38 PM

It's program type isn't one of those on the list of things that can take program options, so no, that method won't work.

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 11:42 PM

That is plain nonsense. All you need is to walk into an Electronics Emporium and shell out 600 Nuyen for a rating 6 EmoToy. And EmoSoft doesn't need military grade systems to run. In fact, it runs fine on unrated systems, because software ratings in SR4 are broken like that.


You should read the relevant book, All4.

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 7 2013, 11:52 PM

Let's add it up then, shall we?
First: You don't need response 6 for running a rating 6 program. So, we'll take a runner's commlink of average cost, let's say the Hermes Ikon at 3000 nuyen. Add on an OS with a system rating of 4 and upgrade that to 6
Novatech Navi, an additional 1,5k. System 6, 3000 nuyen. We're now at a whopping investment of 7500 nuyen. Add in the actual software at 3000 nuyen, and you've got 10,5k nuyen invested for a commlink capable of running your Empathy Software rating 6 and the program.
And we will also ignore optimization for the moment, because, honestly, just about every runner wants to run rating 6 programs, for encryption purposes at the very least.

Now, let's see what else there is that adds up to this kind of bonus.
Medkits? Sure. I think the story is kind of different there, though. They help in keeping your team stitched together (and thus assist in actually having the game) and aren't something you use all the time for 4-6 different skills (depending on reading).
Let's take something to resist damage, then. This is used often, right? We have ... a max bonus of +4 to damage resistance tests with bone density augmentation, clocking in at 80k, AND 1,2 essence. Available at character creation, like the commlink, but almost eight times as expensive. Ceramic Bone lacing (available at creation, unlike titanium) adds 4 dice as well, though 2 of those can be circumvented by AP weaponry. Still double the price of the commlink at over 20k.
Yes, there is a huge bonus at a relatively low investment. Even without considering MooDragon™, your rightful overlord, which sets you back between 600 and 2600 nuyen. The cost at least, because there is no pricetag on owning MooDragon™.
Also, 7,5k of these 10,5k are usable for A LOT of other things as well.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 7 2013, 11:53 PM

The cost of the 'toy drones' is indicative of a problem with Empathy Software itself. If one is going to house rule or ban something, make it the 'toy drone' if anything since it's obvious that's where people's problem lies (since that tends to be what everyone jumps immediately to every time it gets brought up).

As to the 'read the relevant book' line, I did. I quoted Unwired on what program types may receive Program Options. Sensor Software is not among those.

Posted by: hermit Mar 7 2013, 11:56 PM

You did not, then. Because the relevant book is Arsenal.

For reference: Unwired deals with Matrix programs. Those can have options and take up commlink slots and all that. Sensor software runs in sensors and does not take up slots. You can run the EmoSoft in a camera, or a cybereye. You can even run it in your commlink's camera. There's no rating limit on what you can run either.

Posted by: SpellBinder Mar 8 2013, 12:00 AM

From SR4a, page 222, under System:
"System limits the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating."

Your Response 4, System 6 commlink is running as if it's Response 4, System 4 and all your software without Optimization will run at a rating of 4 at best.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 8 2013, 12:00 AM

I used the appropriate source to counter the point involving Program Options.

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 8 2013, 12:03 AM

Oh, thank you for pointing that out. I misremembered.
It still makes the entire investment cheaper than just about everything else that gives even less bonus dice, with now 13,5k, so the point still stands

Posted by: Bearclaw Mar 8 2013, 12:05 AM

This is the important part. If you are buying a topflight comm-link to avoid having a little drone hidden on your body some where you are doing it wrong.
"Ha! My Furby™ says you're lying!" Indeed.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 8 2013, 12:14 AM

That's a lot to spend just for that. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it 'broken', and even if something can be abused, that doesn't mean that it will be abused.

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 8 2013, 12:19 AM

I didn't say it is broken.
For me, this is merely an academic question, since we all (edit: where I usually play) agree that it is stupid to have a piece of equipment at such a low price available for just about everyone who even semi-regularly embarks in negotiations.

Which is why I pointed out the price disparity.
13.5k Nuyen for program, the commlink and its upgrades (which are usable to set up a very decent running 'link, as well) for +6 dice. Ceramic bone lacing at the minimum costs 9k more, gives 2 dice less and additionally costs essence, which is a finite ressource.
So yeah. You don't need to be good at math to see that there's something wrong with this picture.

For these reasons, a lot of people either ignore the pool inflation or rule that empathy software on both sides cancels each other out.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 8 2013, 01:45 AM

Cannot optimize Empathy Software...

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 8 2013, 01:53 AM

Tried pointing that out, and I just got a "read the relevant book" remark. AFTER quoting the passage stating what program types can take options (just because the Empathy Software is in a different book than Program Options).

Posted by: Novocrane Mar 8 2013, 02:03 AM

You don't need to optimise it. Just run it on a peripheral node. Cybereyes, sensor module, etc. with a jacked up System.

Posted by: Glyph Mar 8 2013, 02:20 AM

The trouble with shoehorning all of the software options from Unwired into limiting empathy software is that it is sensor software specifically stated to be able to run in "standard trideo/video cameras". And insisting that you need expensive commlinks for it runs into the logical problem that you can get the same results from a cheap toy.

Even if you do that, it only takes it out of the realm of normal people - it doesn't do anything to hold back PCs, who will typically get a super-modded commlink anyways, for securing their PAN, team communications, and tacnets. The problem isn't furbies giving you a +6 bonus, it is the software, period, giving you a bonus that is so far out of scale with any other bonus - it is the equivalent of max-rated tailored pheromones and max-rated kinesics, combined. The supernatural power of glamour, which makes people shower the character with awed adulation, gives half of the bonus that you can get from empathy software. Empathy software is to SR4 what the mnemonic enhancer was to SR3, only perhaps even more unbalancing - in an area that already has vague rules for its effects, and far too many modifiers that stack.

Posted by: Falconer Mar 8 2013, 02:26 AM

At which point I reiterate my earlier point...it's a problem in SR4 in general.

Why all this outrage at a piece of software which will cost thousands of dollars, on top of a commlink that will cost over 10,000 to run it.

When I can get a rating 6 medkit for peanuts in comparison.


Medkit okay? Expensive commlink running it not? Furbies most definitely not (at the same price as the medkit)!

I agree the furbies low base price and cost and stacking is a problem. I don't agree with the outrage against empathy in particular... as it's only one example out of many endemic to SR4. By this scale... people who read tacnets with the most expansive reading to give a bonus to EVERYTHING on the list instead are getting an outright steal.

I can simply think of more and bigger problems than just the empathy... all based on the SR4 relative dice pool sizes.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 8 2013, 02:28 AM

Hmm...

How would folks think about stuff like Empathy Software and MedKits providing a team bonus, like another PC assisting you, rather than the flat DP boost?

They'd roll their own dice, and any successes get added to your dice pool.



-k

Posted by: Falconer Mar 8 2013, 03:13 AM

KI:
At this point I think the horse has already left the barn... no need to close the door now. Put simply, equipment and how it functions and interacts with skills & attributes is being changed in SR5. The topic now is much ado about nothing.


While your idea to treat autopickers, medkits, tacnets, etc. etc. etc. (there are a lot of them in the game) as teamwork tests has some merit. It also has serious problems... if the 'kit' glitches a teamwork test on 6 dice?

Posted by: artent Mar 8 2013, 05:00 AM

I was hoping that there was some obscure forum post from a developer about this. It almost felt like an incomplete sentence that was left unfinished by accident...I could have seen it saying....adds 6 dice to all social tests...involving judge intentions, or something far more limited.

I am considering using the house-rule that every NPC has empathy software at their comlinks response rating, but since this is for Missions characters I don't feel I can ban something that is clearly not disallowed.

Posted by: Medicineman Mar 8 2013, 05:15 AM

I just wanted to post that we Use Emotisoft and Emotitoys in our Groups but only with Teamwork Test (Each Success of the Software gives +1 Die capped by the Skill of the User) and don't consider them OP or Imba

with an OK Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 8 2013, 05:43 AM

If someone bothered buying it in my group, I'd rule it just as it is. There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.

Posted by: SpellBinder Mar 8 2013, 05:44 AM

Never had a problem with it either. Just remember the line, "what the players can do, so too can the NPCs." Your player face abusing the Empathy software? Guess what, so does Mr. Johnson.

Posted by: hermit Mar 8 2013, 08:49 AM

Oh, it's feeling persecuted time again.

Posted by: Mach_Ten Mar 8 2013, 09:12 AM

just to adda logistics point to this debate ...

books say it can be in stalled in Standard Trideo/Video cameras .. doesn't mention covert cams and cyber-eyes or comms

so without inferrence that it could be used elsewhere, you end up with the following reply to any social interaction.

"get that camera outta my face chummer or i'll give you a new essence hole !" instantly the opponent has negative modifiers to counter your software bonus.

as for the Toy's .. but unless you are a 12 year old with that furrby, then any johnson worth his salt is gonna do 2 things

check for bugs and put a bullet in the furrby
or
have a signal jammer / white noise generator that will negate the use of it in those circumstances.

it's just not worth getting caught trying to use that shit.

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 8 2013, 09:29 AM

Funny. When asked that question I don't lie, and I'm not dead. My point of view is, "if you don't want the truth, don't ask me". Luckily for me, my g/f's POV is the same.

Not arguing with your point, just the way you chose to illustrate it.

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 8 2013, 09:33 AM

So the cameras are two hundred meters away. Huzzah, telephoto lenses!

Besides which, that kind of nitpickery is what I call "rules lawyering of the worst sort". In the 2070s, Cybereyes pretty much are "standard cameras".


The Johnson pulls a gun at a meet, and there're going to be more bullets going into HIM, than into my drone/pet.

The jammer won't work either, since I'm in my Steampunk outfit, complete with miniature (and fire-breathing) Steampunk Dragon ... emotitoy. Which so happens to be hard-wired to my vest. Which is in turn Skinlink modified. And that can't be jammed without tazing me ... which brings us back to the Johnson getting the bullets, not me or my toy.

Thirdly? My g/f takes a stuffed animal with her to the movies, the mall, pretty close to everywhere.

Posted by: Cain Mar 8 2013, 09:37 AM

There's something seriously wrong with emotoys being cheaper and easier to run than the empathy software itself.


Yes, but that leads to dice pool inflation across the board. The buckets-o-dice problems have been well discussed, and emotoys just make it worse.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 8 2013, 09:38 AM

Of course, there is a problem with it. It's stupidly broken. And that's Empathy Software. Not even going into Emotitoys, there isn't even a word to describe how stupid those are.

Just compare it with other social bonuses, like Tailored Pheromones, or Kinesics, or whatever, and what kind of investment you have to make for those.

6 extra dice for all social tests for the neglectible cost is simply too much.

The Teamwork Test works a lot better. It is still very good then (and close to a must-have due to the low cost).

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 8 2013, 09:49 AM

You know, for someone who complains so often about being insulted, you're doing an awful lot of sweeping, and very much insulting generalizations.
The thing is, you can actually criticize without being a hater or whiny brat. The world is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
For example: I like some things the company does, and I don't like others. No one is perfect, but a +6 toything doesn't make the people behind CGL bad persons, nor bad game designers. The overall system actually does work, contrary to such minor points.
Actually: Criticism helps to make a product or person better. IF you are willing to take it, that is

Posted by: Mach_Ten Mar 8 2013, 09:56 AM

point.

but surely adding S/W that you use for social or other interaction needs some form of DNI above just installing cyber eyes ?

maybe even a skillsoft suite ? .. I don't know all the rules here. just throwing ideas

okay so he's not gonna pull a gun, but he's going to be instantly on the defensive and suspect it for what it is, negating the bonus for sure and
if it was me, refuse to do business with your group. that uses such obvious ploys

I mean .. tailored pheromones I can handle and expect even, but trying to out-cute me with that gizmo

and not wanting to call your g/f into question but ... does it give her any extra social dice ?

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 8 2013, 10:01 AM

I disagree that the software itself is "broken". The very fact that you need a higher-end commlink to run it at more than R2 or R3, is a limiting factor.

But you could always limit it to R3 or R4 maximum, if you like.


IMO, only because they're too cheap; the cost could stand to be significantly higher. Also, see above about limited ratings; limit the toys even further (R1 or R2 only, perhaps).

Posted by: Mach_Ten Mar 8 2013, 10:05 AM

Hmmm, am i wrong in saying that you are limited in modifiers to the skill rating

i.e. I only have Ettiquette 2, so my rating 6 emo-toy only gives me bonus 2 ??

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 8 2013, 10:08 AM

Nope.

Cybereyes are wireless capable (though I generally tend to switch that function off, while adding skinlink, for signals security reasons, myself). They serve as both the camera, and the display.

You already need "somethign else", in the form of a commlink to run the software (or one of the toys to run it).


Eh, negate the bonus, no. Refuse to negotiate, maybe - but then, "Alright then, have it your way. Go find someone else do do the job - bye!"


It doesn't have to be cute.


Well, keep in mind, she hasn't got an emotitoy, it's just a stuffed animal. And she treats it like an outfit accessory.

But, in some places, and with some people? Yes, I'd say it does. At Arisia (annual Science Fiction convention, every January in Boston), for example, she's earned a reputation for being someone who regularly gives things, usually stuffed animals, to all and sundry as she wanders the halls (she's constantly buying new ones, and has to "thin the herd" every year or two - I insist, because Ilike having room to walk around our house, hehehe). This year, it was roses ... made of duct tape and bamboo skewers, in a riotous array of colors ... literally, no two of the 300+ of them were identical.




I believe you're thinking of a limit like that for the "Improved Ability" Adept power, where the bonus dice from that ability is limited to one-half of the skill rating.

And that would make another decent option to limit the impact of empathy software, too.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 8 2013, 10:34 AM

Yeah, so R5 is easily available at the start, bad enough. It's way cheaper than other social modifier gear. And does not cost Essence or requires Magic. And it is better. And legal.



Sure, but that does not change how the rule is written.



Yeah, reasonable cost and reasonable Rating (1, max 2) would be ok.

But as it stands it is R6 for 600¥ and readily available. Including the five-figures, Availability 16 hardware you need to run the Empathy software at that level.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Thanee Mar 8 2013, 11:27 AM

Here's a comparison of some gear/abilities that offer bonuses to all (in person) social tests:

Tailored Pheromones 1-3 -> 0.2 Essence + 15,000¥ per +1 to all social tests, illegal
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 1 -> 0.1 Essence + 5,000¥ per +1 to all social tests, disadvantage vs Tailored Pheromones
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3 -> 0.05 Essence + 7,500¥ per +1 to all social tests, disadvantage vs Tailored Pheromones
Kinesics 1-3 -> 0.5 Magic (Quality required) per +1 to all social tests
Empathy Software 3 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 617¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Novatech Airware with System 3
Empathy Software 5 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 1,900¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Hermes Ikon with Response 5 upgrade and System 5
Empathy Software 6 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 3,000¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Hermes Ikon with Response 5+6 upgrade and System 6, Availability 16
Emotitoy 6 -> 100¥ per +1 to all social tests


Empathy Software should be 5,000¥ per Rating and offer +1 to all social tests for half its Rating (rounded up), or work like a Teamwork test; full Rating for Judge Intentions.

Emotitoys should be 1,000¥ and be Rating 1 (fixed); adding 1 to the runner's Notoriety, if the roll results in a Glitch.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Mach_Ten Mar 8 2013, 11:46 AM

next kid we see in the street in Bogotá, Thanee, we are totally mugging him and stealing his Furrby !!

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 8 2013, 12:01 PM

and then you strip the software out of that thing and sell it on it's own for more.

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 8 2013, 12:07 PM

Step 3: Profit

Posted by: Mach_Ten Mar 8 2013, 12:23 PM

Oh that's a WIN WIN if ever I heard one ... I get to murder an annoying toy AND profit !

Posted by: Kiirnodel Mar 8 2013, 01:32 PM

I have been looking through the Sensor Software, and I'm not seeing where it allows you to run the software on a peripheral node. I mean, there are rules for networking peripheral nodes to make an "effective" commlink in Unwired (I believe, not going to look into that right now), but that would be different stats than pretending you can run any kind of software you want on a plain old camera. Here is what I found, taken directly from Arsenal. I have underlined passages and explained how I interpret them in the bullet points afterward.

• Hook up a dedicated sensor system to a tailored software package - Connect sensors to a commlink running sensor software. It doesn't say that the sensors themselves have the computing power to run the Software. This does not change any of the rules already associated with software, and how software already works.
• Designed for use with - Not to be confused with used in. The software is designed (as mentioned above) to be used with a sensor system utilizing standard video/trideo cameras. The software must still run on a computer (commlink) that is running high enough Response/System rating to run the appropriate software programs.

• limited ability to sense emotions - Emotitoys have only a limited ability to sense emotions, the power of their Empathy software is a rating of their ability to do this (dice pool).
• react appropriately, based on their purpose - Each Emotitoy reacts in a pre-specified way, and that is all they do. They change color, make sounds, or move in ways pre-determined based on certain stimuli.

My solutions are listed below. Solution A is a clarification of the rules, while Solution B is a limitation to impose on the Emotitoys to bring them more in line with their price. A Gamemaster can choose to use these rulings (or not) if the players are taking advantage of the Empathy Software and things seem unbalanced. Using these interpretations might balance things without needing to use special house rules.

Solution A: Sensor software, while used directly with sensors, must still be run on a commlink or other computer device. Sensor software is still software, and follows the normal rules for software limitations (such as System Rating limiting Program Rating, and program load of a commlink). You must still have an appropriate commlink to run Empathy (or any sensor software) at the appropriate rating.

Solution B: Emotitoys' built-in Empathy Software is integrated hardware/software and cannot be removed or used in other devices. In addition, they cannot be integrated into a character's PAN to gain the same benefits as Empathy Software used directly through a person's commlink and sensor devices. The Emotitoy can detect emotion and can change color or make motions based on the model, but does not integrate in the same way a dedicated sensor system with sensor software. "Rule": An Emotitoy can aid a character with social tests (with its Judge Intentions for Emotional State) with teamwork, but does not add its rating to the social tests of the character.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 8 2013, 01:56 PM

(RAW)-Rules for Emotitoy are very simple: "The rating of the emotitoy is the rating of its built-in empathy software."

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 8 2013, 02:10 PM

Eh.

Here's my solution, an all-in-one package deal:



Empathy Software
Adds it's rating in bonus dice to any social test, up to one-half of the user's skill rating. Cannot have any Options.

Rating 1: costs 1,000¥ with availability -
Rating 2: costs 3,000¥ with availability 4
Rating 3: costs 6,000¥ with availability 8R
Rating 4: costs 10,000¥ with availability 12F

(Rumors abound that some megacorporations, or three-letter-agencies, may have R5, R6, or even higher-rated Empathy software, for use during interrogations. To this date, however, they remain solely that: rumors.)

Emotitoys
Come with the equivalent of Empathy software built in, along with a child-friendly interface. They provide their rating in bonus ice to everyone present (they're about as subtle as an Ork go-gang at a high society wedding). Also come with a built-in Panic Button that can be set to alert the child's parents, private security, the police, or whomever the parent / owner desires (must be set up beforehand).

Rating 1: costs 750¥ with availability 5
Rating 2: costs 2,000¥ with availability 10

NOTE: these drones are nonmobile and have an effective Signal Rating of 1

... versions with limited mobility and Signal 1 cost +750¥ with a +3 availability
... versions with full mobility and Signal 2 cost +1,250¥ with a +5 availability
... bypassing the normal UI (so that it's discreet and provides it's bonus only to it's owner) requires a special modification that doubles the base price of the Emotitoy.

All other modifications cost twice the usual nuyen. The Emotitoy has only 2 slots available for modifications.



Poof. Much, much, MUCH more limited. And more expensive. And, in the case of the Emotitoy specifically, not terribly useful anymore, at all - and is either useless, or VERY expensive. And a bit hard to find, too (they're the novahot gift this year!!).

But still a viable option, for social-focussed characters. (And heck, R1 for everyone, is not unreasonable.)

Posted by: Kiirnodel Mar 8 2013, 02:12 PM

Is that directed at me? I addressed this in my "Solution B". The GM simply limits how an Emotitoy may be used in regard to a user's PAN. There are no specific rules anywhere in any of the books that says exactly how some devices might behave differently than others. For instance, the interface with a Smartgun is different from a drone... It is well within the GM's role to give some limitations and clarifications as to how some devices are used.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 8 2013, 03:11 PM

If we used Emotitoys, we would do the same thing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 8 2013, 03:20 PM

Which is why at our table, those damned Emotitoys do not exist, at least not beyond the basic Furby level, which has absolutely no effect on Dice pools.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Mar 8 2013, 03:33 PM

Pretty much everyone agrees with the OP's question, then. Empathy software is broken.

People's ideas are seemingly thus as to how to "fix" it.

1. Requires high-end commlinks (not really a solution, shhhh)
2. Teamwork test (winnar!)
3. Bannation (booo hiss)

Let's not speak of emotitoys, they're the survival knife of SR4...

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 8 2013, 03:38 PM

4. The rules could use some tweaks.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Mar 8 2013, 03:41 PM

Yea verily, this is true

Posted by: Falconer Mar 8 2013, 05:05 PM

Stahlseele:
Regards selling.... Only if you ignore the rules regarding software and running it on peripheral nodes...

If you strip the software out of the Furby you get a specially written empathy software which can only run on furbies (a specific type of peripheral node).

And it's highly likely the software may be written directly into their basic level OS/pilot which only runs on furbies.


And once again I point out the selective outrage of people here. There's tons of other tech items in the game which give similar bonuses to other skills. Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 8 2013, 05:18 PM

I can only speak for myself, and I wouldn't call it 'outrage'. It's more of a bad taste for me.
Medkits, I like those. They even cost the same as MooDragon™. The reason, why I like them is that I can shoot up the players a bit and they can patch themselves up again afterwards with a little effort. Gives a sense of risk, but wounds are not gamestoppers. Also, the tables with the modifiers are easier to memorize than social situational mods.
Then we have autopickers. Costs double and modifies a very situational skill (who is using old school locks anymore? And who actually has that skill?). Of the top of my hat, I can't remember anything else. Forged keycards use their rating, against the lock, nothing else. Same goes for sequencers and similar stuff, IIRC. Yes, open doors are neat, but actual nut-and-bolt locks are rare in SR.

So, then we have social skills. They are improved with a minimum of effort for a minimal amount of money and they are (at least in my games) used very often. Also, it is an opposed test between living and probably breathing meat popsicles, not a machine or device. I actually have no big issue with the software or the emotitoys, but they just feel kind of like cheating in comparison to some of the other things Thanee and I mentioned. A very big boost to a very common situation for a rather (in case of the commlink) or very (for emotitoys) cheap investment.
Other stuff doesn't usually go that high, and usually costs a lot more in either essence or karma (see power foci).

I don't use them for my face character when I get to play, and my players don't use them either ... and we haven't even talked about the issue. So, yeah. No outrage, but a point where my players and me agree that the rules are feeling a bit off, easily solved by a gentlemen's agreement.

Posted by: crazyconscript Mar 8 2013, 05:37 PM

I think part of the reason people can dislike empathy software/emotitoys giving a +6 bonus is that the field where the apply is social tests. And social interaction can play a huge part of any game. Being able to reliably convince EVERYONE you meet that you are totally the good guys and that their regular maintenance crew are on "vacation" can warp how social situations work a bit too much (somewhat silly example, but possible). Meeting with a Mr.Johnson or high-ranking underworld figure, Street Cred/Notoriety and local factors such as having an Ace-in-the-Hole or picking an intimidating meeting spot should be the largest influences upon dice pools (at least in my opinion). Having a very large easily accessible bonus to social tests can trivialise these encounters in favour of the PC's. Not in every case, but in a lot of them. Yes, NPC's can have access to the same tech as the runners, but that straight no-strings-attached +6 means that Face's can essentially get whatever the hell they want out of those on the lower end of the food chain who cant afford or don't want such a device (gangers, junkies, average BobWageslave)

Yes, pornomancers can already do this. Personally, I don't like it much but they usually have to sacrifice quite a bit to get there. Even a base dice pool of 15 is relatively high for a social encounter before factoring in encounter-specific modifiers in my mind, at least if you are thinking about interacting with PC's. But while other skills can allow you to do one thing with an NPC (kill, avoid, confuse, not get killed by among others) Social skills allow such a broad range of potentially very powerful interaction that it can seem as if it is subtracting from the game if such encounters are trivialised. If you have a +6 pool mod, players might be less inclined to actually interact with a social situtation, since by their dice alone they can potentially just "Roll Charisma=PROFIT!". Yes, GM's can mitigate this (No, the wageslave you just shot in the leg is NOT going to believe that line of bullshit you are feeding him just because you got 9 successes) but if a GM is required to do this, is that not a symptom of something being wrong with the mechanic?

So to summarise, I think a lot of feeling over social modifiers being "unbalanced" in comparison to other skills is that social interaction can be such an important part of any game that it feels wrong to trivialise it

Posted by: Thanee Mar 9 2013, 12:43 AM

Not really. It is unbalanced in comparison to the investment.

+6 is a huge modifier. That's the highest regular skill rank you can achieve in the game. Or the highest natural attribute a human can have.

Something like that should have a considerable cost.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: phlapjack77 Mar 9 2013, 12:53 AM

I don't think this is selective outrage. There's many threads where people are "outraged" about other tech / rules as well. It just so happens that THIS thread is talking about emosoft and emotoys. I mean, by your logic, we couldn't talk about anything, because as soon as we start using specifics you would complain about selective outrage.

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 9 2013, 01:54 AM

The other thing about Empathy software/Emotitoys compared to, say, medkits or Maglock Passkeys, is that while a medkit gives its bonus to 2 skills (Medicine and First Aid) and the Maglock passkey only gives it to a specific use of one skill (Hardware), Es/Et give their bonuses to a whole section of the skill list.

It might also help that medkits are easy enough to imagine, as they're basically advanced first-aid kits. Emotitoys on the other hand are hard to seriously imagine, as people automatically think "Furby" and use that as a point of reference. While it's easy to imagine a skilled medic with a first aid kit, it's far harder to imagine a skilled negotiator with a furby.

Posted by: Glyph Mar 9 2013, 02:55 AM

The bonus for empathy software upsets people because it is out of proportion to the bonuses that you can get to social skills from other things. People would have the same reaction if red dot sights gave a +6 bonus.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 9 2013, 10:14 AM

Can you point out another such case?

The only one I can think of is the medkit. And that is not quite the same, as it is not "competing" with other items, that cost hundred times more.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Cain Mar 9 2013, 11:27 AM

Because it's too cheap for the benefit. Nothing else gives +6 dice for 600 nuyen.

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 9 2013, 11:41 AM

Actually... Medkits do, and the vision enhancement upgrade on glasses and the like give similar benefit to cost ratios..

Posted by: Umidori Mar 9 2013, 12:07 PM

Medkits, as has been pointed out, are 1) not Opposed Tests and 2) balanced such that you NEED a high rating medkit to do any substantial amount of healing.

Likewise, Vision Enhancements 1) take up limited capacity in other equipment, scaled to rating, and 2) cap at +3 dice.

You cannot directly compare Empathy Software to either.

~Umi

Posted by: Thanee Mar 9 2013, 01:20 PM

Well, Perception is one skill that is a bit easy to get to high dice pool levels due to all the stacking bonuses.

Esp. since it is used in opposed tests vs. Infiltration / Disguise, which are much harder to raise.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Garvel Mar 9 2013, 03:11 PM

If the Empathy software gave only +3, it would be ok. It would still be strong and cheap, but not broken. I would be like tailored pheromones but cost much less recources. I coud live with that.
+3 dice is a big advantage in an opposed social test, but its not an autowin.
+6 dice is just ridicuous. You don't even need to bother rolling the dice if the opponent doesn't have Empathy software too. It would be no use to discuss with someone who has that annoying Emoti-Hypnotoad on his shoulders, unless you have one too. In the end you will do anything he says anyway.

If you look at the social modifiers table (p. 131 SR4A), you see that +6 is way over the top. "Character’s desired result is disastrous to NPC" gives –4 dice. Compare that to the software that gives you +6 dice. You can literally walk around and talk people into eating their pants for 1 Nuyen.

What else single gimmick does give you +6 dice for an opposed test? Hacking programs, but they substitute an attribut, and at least it is seems logical that a way better program gives you an advantage, that your opponent can't make up with better skill alone. And magical foki, but these things are supposed to be incredible powerfull, and are very expensive on both, Nuyen and karma. (And still you find enough people that say that they are unballanced.) And at least such powerfull foki don't seem unplausible once you are in "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" that magic exists.
But Empathy software is something that will probably exist in reallity one day, and all it does is give you a complete read of your opponent and some tips how to behave. This will of course give you an advantage for influencing people, but there is still a limit to how much you can influence them with those informations. If you are optimistic, "+3 modifier", the difference between Hostile (–3) and Neutral (+0), seems acceptable. But "+6 modifier", the difference between Friendly (+2) and Enemy (–4), that feels just very unrealistic. And this obviously unrealisticness impairs the atmosphere of the game for me. Of course there are many unrealisticnesses in the game, but this one is completely unnecessary.

Even if the skillratings would go from 1 to 12 instead of 1 to 6 (as planned for SR 5) , the +6 dice modifier would still be to high. It really shouldn't be better than tailored pheromones or glamor.

I would houserule it to:
"..., adding its half rating (rounded down) as a dice pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."
Also Emotitoys higher than rating 3 would cost rating x 500 nuyen. Also having that pet sit visibly on your shoulder will turn most NPCs from Neutral (+0) to Suspicious (–1) if you try to talk them into something.
And that would still be very generous, but at least it wouldn't feel so unrealistic.

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 9 2013, 03:19 PM

So, Rating 1, 3, and 5 are ... pretty much useless, no? Why not just double the price, and then halve the max rating, instead? Same effect, less presence of uselessness.


Right. So I buy an R4 Emotitoy, install R4 Covert Ops autosoft, upgrade the onboard pilot to R4, and mod it for Chameleon Skin. Now it's rolling 8 dice to hide from you, and you're at -4 dice on your perception check to see it. And I'm still getting +4 (RAW) or +2 (your houserule) social dice.

So really, all you've done is require me to roll out the cheese, myself.

Better to make them more expensive, and limit their rating. In fact, gee, I kinda outlined an option that did just that, previously in this thread.

Posted by: Garvel Mar 9 2013, 04:23 PM

For infiltration there are chameleon suits, visibility modifiers, the concealment power, and the fact that agility is much easier to raise than intuition.
For disguise there are implants and adeptpower that give bonusdice as well.

In the end, Perception vs. Infiltration / Disguise hasn't been a problem at our table.


Because:

You don't want to make judge intention tests with 3 dice. Not if the average humen has 6 dice. That would make the software appear retarded. Also making it a rating 3 program would eraze the need for a rating 6 commlink and thus make the +3 modifier cheaper to get. I wanted to avoid that.


You could just put it in your pocket and feed it the view from your cybereyes over your PAN. The "Suspicious (–1)" should rather be common sense than a nerf. It is a better NPC reaction than "Johnson pulls out his gun to shoot at the Emotitoy, to be instantly riddled with bullets in return from the guns of the runnerteam" which we already had in this thread.

These houserules are supposed to be a compromise that changes the existing rules as little as possible, but still make the software ok instead of broken.
If I would make complete new rules for the Empathy Software, I would surely make the Emotitoys the same price as the software, and keep the maximum modifier at +2.
I like the houserule for teamwork tests from the software, exept for the fact that an additional diceroll slows tha game down. (I especially hate having to roll 8 times to disable one single maglock. ) If you would allow the Empathy Software to trade 3 to 1 in this test, it would be fine for me.

Posted by: Falconer Mar 9 2013, 05:55 PM

To me it's just what I'm talking about though.

+perception enhancements are easy to come by and cheap.
+stealth is easy to come by and again cheaper. (once you factor in hardware costs to run the software)
Knowsofts & linguasofts instantly toss in a lot of extra dice.

Keycard copiers
As do autopickers...
Sequencers

And that's just a quick scan of the main book...

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 9 2013, 05:57 PM

Small nitpick: Maglock passkeys use their rating in an opposed test with the lock. Not your hardware rating. As such, they are a lot less 'harmless'

Posted by: Falconer Mar 9 2013, 05:59 PM

Yeah I realized that when I reread my post... you ninja'd me before I had editted it out though.

I meant to use the keycard copiers.

Posted by: bannockburn Mar 9 2013, 06:02 PM

Sorry 'bout that
My reasoning on those items is found under your previous post, though. Personal opinion, of course, nothing more.

Posted by: Falconer Mar 9 2013, 06:19 PM

Nothing to apologize for it's a valid point. It's simply a matter of opinion. I simply see them as illustrative of the problems in the bigger system.

My least favorite system of all time though has to be SR4 TacNets... the bonuses can apply to practically everything and anything people do! That is FAR more abusive than social assistance sensor softs. (sorry I object to the silliness of a piece of software giving someone as much benefit as MbW2 on reaction-dodge test. Or giving twice as much of an AR aiming bonus as smartlinks already do, plus all the other bonuses to stealth, perception, etc. they give).


My own take is on a by the numbers approach... If you add say +4 empathy to two different dice pools... the guy rolling 6 dice nearly doubles up to 10... while the guy rolling 12 -> 16 isn't anywhere near as big an increase. (granted furby stacking is way over the top... and the idea of the toys is also rather silly).

In an opposed test... the gear is actually a bigger benefit to the non-pornomancer.
12 vs 6 dice as opposed to 16 vs 10.


I actually find concealment/stealth gear the bigger problem in the game than empathy, because it subtracts dice from others rather than adding them to the users own skill. It's a far more clumsy mechanic to work with. (as opposed to simply raising the threshold of the test by 1 for say a sneak suit).

Posted by: Garvel Mar 9 2013, 06:50 PM

I agree. I usually only allow the fluff benefits from tacnet, like seeing instantly what a teammate sees, preventing friendly fire and easier shooting through walls. No dice pool boni at all.
Thats actually reason enough to buy it. Everyone that can affort it still buys it.

Posted by: Cain Mar 10 2013, 12:36 AM

Tacnets are fairly expensive and tricky to set up, though, so they cost more for the benefit. Emotoys cost virtually nothing, don't require any setup, and their benefit never goes away. Medkits can run out of supplies, but Emotoys never even need new batteries.

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 10 2013, 01:11 AM

Yeah, tacnets are very expensive to get beyond a piddly +1 bonus. They also tend, by their very nature, to benefit the ENTIRE party at once, so there's less intraparty balance concerns to be worried about.

I still wouldn't apply the benefits to every roll, though. I think I would grant it for Initiative and non-matrix Perception tests, no problems. Probably also to Dodge and covering-fire related tests. Finally, I'd give each player a "pool" of dice equal to the TacNet bonus, to apply however they like, during each IP.

I'd pay attention to how that was working, though, and adjust as balance needs seemed to indicate.

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 10 2013, 01:23 AM

The good thing about tacnets is that it's perfectly justifiable to give a low-end one to corp-sec, which improves their chances against runners who haven't got one yet.

Granted, the only runner team in the world without a tacnet is the one I'm running with, but still...

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 10 2013, 01:35 AM

The only time I bought TacSoft with a character in our group, I was the only character who had it, so it ended up being wasted.

Posted by: Garvel Mar 10 2013, 01:57 AM

I hope that taught you the valuable lesson to never buy non-pirated programs. If you have a program without copyright protection, everyone in your group who needs it has the program.

(This post may or may not be completely serious )

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 10 2013, 01:59 AM

Isn't that what the hacker is for? Stripping out copy protection on programs and BTLs? (Admit it, that's the real reason your team puts up with the hacker: he can get you all those free simsense movies.)

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 10 2013, 02:03 AM

If everyone were willing to slave their commlinks to yours (evn just disposable 'links), you could still run a TacNet with a single copy of the program.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 10 2013, 02:08 AM

I think I was the only one that had enough sensor channels for the rating 2 Tacsoft that I had or else I'd have suggested something of the sort when I was playing the character.

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 10 2013, 02:17 AM

Downgrudging it to R1, is still better than nothing at all.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 10 2013, 02:25 AM

We did all right without the bonus in that game. I think I went a bit overboard with that character's ability to shoot things. I still feel dirty about its 18 dice pool with a gun...

Posted by: FuelDrop Mar 10 2013, 03:04 AM

You have less than 22 dice out of chargen?!? N00B! U is not L33T enough to hang out with runners.

Ok, now that that's over with, 18 dice does seem pretty decent. Automatics?

Posted by: Falconer Mar 10 2013, 08:01 AM

No, you can very quickly and cheaply field a rating 3 tacnet for a pittance.

Especially once the costs are amortized over the whole team. One 'tacnet' helmet for each player... with some extra sensors... and you're pretty much set. (trodes, simrig, cheap commlink, camera, biomonitor... very easy to get 6-8 senses).

If you don't have enough people just upgrade one of the drones to sensor rating 6 (easily done for under a grand).

All you need is one central cheap commlink able to handle the subscriptions to slave and one copy of the software.


So while empathy software rating 6 is going to cost you 3grand IIRC (500x rating? away from book), plus the cost of a response/system 6 commlink. Tacnet level 3 is going to cost the same with some minor costs spread out across the team. There is next to no fiddly bits. And the bonuses are far more egregious than empathy ever was. Not that you probably won't want the upgraded commlink anyhow with a centrally administered for the security stuff.



And software should never add to defense and attack tests... sorry. Smartlink and smartlink enhancements like improved rangefinder/airburst should be as good as it gets. Especially when it adds more to everyone than expensive cyber/bio can!

Posted by: All4BigGuns Mar 10 2013, 08:07 AM

I believe it was Automatics, but the character was former military, so I figured that he'd have had more training with assault rifles than handguns.

Posted by: DeathStrobe Mar 10 2013, 08:13 AM

This gives me an idea for a technomancer face, who can over thread the empathy soft complex form and get +12 dice to social tests. And a stream where fading is resisted by charisma. That should be able to be done, right?

Posted by: Falconer Mar 10 2013, 08:32 AM

You'd be taking a sustaining penalty for the CF since a lot of those tests are measured in timeframes far longer than a sprite is going to be able to help you out.

Just me but I always thought that a sprite should actually need to have the CF to sustain to or boost it... not just do it for anything like it says in the main rulebook.


But in any case... a 15 minute meeting would burn through 60 services from a rating 5 sprites
...

Posted by: DeathStrobe Mar 10 2013, 08:36 AM

So I guess you'd only get a +10 bonus instead of +12. And You might take some physical damage from fading, which also might be enough to take a dice pool hit.

Posted by: crazyconscript Mar 10 2013, 11:36 AM

Thing is, you wouldn't actually suffer the sustaining penalty for keeping up the empathy software yourself, as the penalty only applies to tests that DO NOT use the threaded form. So you would potentially get the full +12 when socialising, but would take the -2 to everything else

Posted by: phlapjack77 Mar 10 2013, 12:18 PM

way the registering rules are written, it's not that hard or inconceivable for a techno to have sprites like this...

can't the sprite aid in the threading, adding it's rating for a potential grand total of +18 empsoft bonus?

Posted by: Inu Mar 11 2013, 10:54 AM

The real weakness of a tacnet is not the cost, but the enemy's electronic warfare setup.

Posted by: _Pax._ Mar 11 2013, 01:55 PM

That, too. Which basically means, everyone on the team needs to be running Encryption, and possibly ECCM (or else have very strong native Signal rating), as well as the TacNet. Oh, and Analyze, to keep intruders out of each 'link. So right there, that's four programs running. That won't all run on a cheap commlink, not at once, not without slowing the link to an absolute crawl.

Posted by: Cain Mar 11 2013, 02:27 PM

No, the cost is 600 nuyen for a furby. Tacnets cost a lot more than that, even spread across the team. You can share emotoys.