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Posted by: Thanee Jul 13 2013, 05:23 PM

So, Mystic Adepts seem a wee bit too awesome as they are now.

What I am thinking about currently is the following house rule:

Mystic Adepts combine the aspects of Aspected Magician (without Astral Perception) and Adept (no Karma cost for initial PP, but gain only 1 PP per 2 full points of Magic, plus full PP from Metamagic).

What do you think?


For Priorities, they should get an extra entry, though:

A - Mystic Adept: Magic 6, one Rating 5 Magical skill group, Astral Perception

B - Mystic Adept: Magic 4, one Rating 4 Magical skill group

C - Mystic Adept: Magic 3, one Rating 3 Magical skill

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 05:34 PM

Interesting. I had been thinking of something similar on the Aspected Front: "Mystics Adepts Chargen as an Aspected Mage of one Priority Level lower. Must choose an Aspect. During Chargen, Mystic Adepts start with no spells or Powerpoints but may buy them as follows: spells cost 5 Karma (normal) and Powerpoints cost 5 Karma."

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 13 2013, 05:37 PM

I believe Mystic Adept will be fine when PPs are 5 Karma each.

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 05:46 PM

From what I've read and heard from professional game designers, there's a general consensus that whenever there isn't a meaningful trade-off between choices there is immediately an identifiable optimized choice, and that makes the overall game suffer with respect to how it could have been.

And actually, looking for meaningful choices appears to reinforce the Everything has a Price component that is prevalent in SR5.

It appears like there is not a meaningful choice for Mystic Adepts, however. They look like an obvious choice -- Potentially full Adept powers + Full spell casting + Full Conjuring. Limited solely from Astral Projection.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 13 2013, 05:53 PM

IMO its not even close. 30 karma for 6 PPs of adept abilities and they grow with your magic rating or by giving up a metamagic. No other 30 karma expenditure comes close.

Posted by: Falconer Jul 13 2013, 05:54 PM

Just wait til the magic book comes out and a spirit type with 'astral gateway' joins the fray again. Then it'll be the defacto optimal choice.

At least in the past mystic adepts had to think hard about how they split their magic, debates about how that split worked notwithstanding.

I think I would have preferred if aspected types had to pick two specialties not just one. And mystic adepts were type of aspected mage... pick two out of... sorcery, conjuring, alchemy, or mystic adept. You might see some mages take it and foreswear alchemy... or an alchemist who can dabble in spirits (that just screams halloween style 'witch' to me).

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 06:28 PM

Ahh, you edited your post since my initial response -- Yes, this looks very close to what I was considering.

I like that it forces a real choice between buying spells, and buying Power Points, and allows a player to have the flexibility of both with clear tradeoffs without the obvious, no-brain uber-choice of getting both with minimal cost.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Glyph Jul 13 2013, 06:44 PM

Exactly. I don't even mind them being strong out of the starting gate. It is advancement that is screwed up, because instead of having to choose between magical ability and power points, they get both.

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 13 2013, 06:47 PM

5 Karma per PP for advancement also is what I meant.

Posted by: Falconer Jul 13 2013, 06:58 PM

If we were talking 5x new rank in PP's it would be one thing... but we're talking 5karma per PP flat... that's the problem.

At 5x new rank essentially they're buying a second cheaper magic attribute. At 5 flat it's almost a no brainer.... 7 magic or 6 magic & 6 PP... sometimes you just have to wonder who writes this drek or thinks it's not an obvious choice.


For those who don't follow my logic... under the old game you had say a magic 4, 2PP split. To advance the character you would need 35 karma for magic 7 then the hard choice. At a 5x new rank... it would only be 25karma for a new Magic-mana, or 15karma for an extra PP. 40karma would get you one of each as opposed to the old one where 35 only got you one or the other. Still a huge buff... but at that cost it's still a hard choice.

At 5 flat it's simply a PP surtax every time you raise magic.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 13 2013, 07:11 PM

Heh. Yep, exactly after reading your response, actually, since it made me aware, that the regular priorities for Magicians don't work well for Aspected Magicians.



My approach is slightly different, though. Mystic Adepts cannot buy PP, they get them for free, but only half as many as regular Adepts.

I basically want them to be not quite as good as Magicians and not quite as good as Adepts in their own field, but while they are kinda half-Magicians and half-Adepts, they only lack power in quantity not in quality.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 13 2013, 07:16 PM

Under the old system, Mystic Adept were only viable in niche builds involving Heightened Concentration or some other crazy optimization. Unless the game reached a ridiculous amount of Karma, they were almost always behind.

5x new Rank means they essentially have to buy Magic twice, and a 50/50 is not viable. For hybrids to work, they need about 60-70% of the base functionality of their parent classes. Being able to do both things sounds good on paper, but your action economy is still the same.

Posted by: Falconer Jul 13 2013, 07:30 PM

Elfenlied: I strongly disagree... I played a few mystic adepts and none ever had any problems. Either with the restrictive force cap or not (depending on GM it was played either way). Using powers like 'ability boost' reaction on top of 'increase initiative' and going for other bargain 0.25PP adept powers was very effective. You only needed a reasonable focus and not try to be a jack of all trades.


As far as your other comment you've completely missed the point. Buying 2 different attributes to 3 each... is only 15 (assuming you're starting with 2 magic and didn't use a special point to raise it). + 5 + 10 + 15 == 45 karma total.

Under SR4 rules starting with 3 magic and no power point you'd be looking at 20 + 25 + 30 karma... or 75 karma plus the need to initiate sooner. It's the exact same problem as the adept attribute raising powers... raise my raw magic score repeatedly... or just raise the attribute right away... even at 0.75 per rank it was normally cheaper to raise the attribute and pay the karma for magic for things you couldn't get otherwise... simply because you'd have to keep stacking more attribute points on top of an already high attribute.

Also quite contrary to your point... 50/50 is extremely viable since each rank of the 50/50 is far cheaper than the whole shebang. Your comment is no different than All4Bigguns stating that it's impossible to build a balanced character with less than 1000 karma. It reflects skewed expectations of what is 'balanced' or in-line with other classes.

If going for rules lawyer/powergamer I will go for mystic adept in SR5 lickity split!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2013, 07:45 PM

I disagree with that assessment. They may be a bit behind, but that DOES NOT make them non-viable. My Current Mystic Adept does not have either Adept Centering nor Heightened Concentration, and is split 3 Sorcery, 2 Adept. He works VERY well for what he does.

I think you will find that a common sentiment.

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 07:48 PM

But you agree that Shadowrun 4th Edition has the least desirable implementation of Mystic Adepts, right?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2013, 08:05 PM

Actually, I prefer SR4A's Implementation over previous Editions (SR1/2/3), and have played several over the years (My Current Mys-Ad character is just over 300 Karma at this point). It remains to be seen if I will prefer 5th Edition's take on them. They do seem to have very few drawbacks, in comparison to 4th Edition. Will have to see.

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 08:08 PM

Whoa, wait a second, hold up. I wasn't expecting that. That didn't sound like the a full bored endorsement of SR 4!

Hold up, hold up. Are you feeling alright, Tymeaus?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2013, 08:19 PM

Heh... Feeling Frellin' Fine. I love my SR4A, there is no doubt. I do not like some of the things in SR5, there is no doubt.

It will also be years before we likely change over to SR5, due to timeline location and what is going on in our campaign. Since I do not have the resources (and do not expect to have them any time soon), it is likely that I will remain in the SR4A world (as it is by far my favorite), but since my Long-running GM is a Shadowrunfile, We will likely change over (sans me owning the plethora of books I do now) when the main core books are out and available. I have a copy of the Base Book, at least, and have been perusing it. It is a blend of disappointment and interest at the moment.

Even went through the challenge of transitioning a character from 4th to 5th (the one that was easy enough to do so, at least - My Version of Canray's Accountant from Hell), and he looks promising. Mostly the same skills (his primary Hacking Skill is an amazing 19 Dice, wow, so much for controlling DP Bloat), a few less pieces of 'Ware (Really, Skillwires/Skilljacks are STUPID expensive, and some things do not work like they used to, or no longer exist at the moment). Overall, he is what I was playing before (though now he is actually an adept, rather than a complete mundane - wanted to keep my Edge at 3, so took Adept for my D Choice), and still has most of the same feel. And since I have nothing that benefits (synergistically) from Wireless access (My gun skills will likely NEVER hit my Limit to start with - 6 Dice, Limit 5), I can avoid that whole line of craziness altogether.

There are still things that make me just shake my head, but overall, it looks playable, with some Houseruling (which is sad, since we managed to avoid most houseruling in SR4A). *Shrug* We will see....

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 08:22 PM

Phew! You had my worried for a second.



Yeah. I'm a little gunshy myself about flagrant house ruling. It boggles my mind how these Mystic Adepts made it through, though.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Falconer Jul 13 2013, 08:23 PM

Actually I think SR3 had the best implementation of Mystic Adepts... the rules were very concise and well written...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2013, 08:26 PM

Indeed... Methinks that Jinx - My Current Mystic Adept, A Black Magic Tradition Mage with a Geas against Killing with Magic (hard to exploit someone if they are dead), would likely benefit GREATLY with the Current Incarnation of the Mystic Adept Rules in SR5. Though again, he still has things that require other books/rules, so no conversions for him anytime soon.

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 08:28 PM

Coming from SR3, I'm a little partial to that implementation myself. I felt there was a clear trade-off between choices.


...Seems like any Mystic Adept would benefit GREATLY from the current incarnation.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2013, 08:40 PM

Too True...

Posted by: Thanee Jul 13 2013, 08:49 PM

I roughly agree with this. That is why my approach is not 50/50.

50/50 is the SR4A FAQ Mystic Adept.

Here, they still have the full Magic Rating for both Magician and Adept side. Everything, that is using Magic (all Magic skills, some Adept powers, Adept power limits, etc) is using the full Magic Rating.

They have to choose between spells and spirits (discounting Enchanting as a common choice here, except for niche characters), but whatever they choose will be on par with what a Magician can do. And they will have to choose what Adept powers to get, but those they get will be on par with those of the Adept (and they can still fling spells or summon spirits in addition! Also, they will get a bit more than half the PP, because of the Metamagic extra PP counting full).


The SR5 Mystic Adept is not a hybrid. It's two (almost) full archetypes in one.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Umidori Jul 13 2013, 09:31 PM

Mystic Adepts are, by their nature, hybrids. By choosing to dabble in both magic and adept powers, you become more versatile at the cost of being less powerful in either field.

So, naturally enough, a full mage will be better at the casting spells side of things, and a full adept will be better at the amazing physical feats side of things. Does that make a Mystic Adept less powerful in each respective field? Absolutely. Does that make a Mystic Adept less viable? No, not at all. It's a lot like the relationship with magic and augmentation. Do you want cyberware, or do you want spells/adept powers? Or do you maybe want a little bit of both?

As it stands, 5E Mystic Adepts get all the benefits of being a mage as well as all the benefits of being an adept. If the same was true for augmented magicians, people would be up in arms over it, and rightly so. Making a properly balanced hybrid character requires meaningful tradeoffs. If you don't like those tradeoffs, don't play a hybrid character. But if you're okay with compromising, then you can make a perfectly viable, and often quite interesting, character.

~Umi

Posted by: Wired_SR_AEGIS Jul 13 2013, 09:45 PM

Excellent summary.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Posted by: RHat Jul 14 2013, 04:12 AM

My approach to this subject, as posted on the other forums:

Posted by: Psikerlord Jul 14 2013, 04:21 AM

i havent read mystic adepts yetbut ifthey are too good we just wont use them at all in our game. noone ever played one before so no real loss.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 14 2013, 07:02 AM

Well, compared to a Magician (assuming Magic 6), they get no Astral Projection, and lose 12 Karma, but get 6 Power Points worth of Adept powers (one of which will likely be used to gain Astral Perception) instead. And later on, they get a free PP whenever they raise Magic in addition to everything else it does.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Psikerlord Jul 14 2013, 07:43 AM

uh-huh yep that sounds stupid good. first house rule then will be no mystic adepts at our table, i suspect.

Posted by: RHat Jul 14 2013, 09:49 AM

Of course, it's been acknowledges that the 2 Karma bit is in error.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 14 2013, 11:04 AM

Even with 5 Karma apiece it is way too cheap, though.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Lurker37 Jul 14 2013, 01:34 PM

As I read it, buying power points with karma is only available at character creation. If you raise the cost, that's simply going to encourage the player to start with magic at a lower priority (can be as low as C: Magic 3). Use karma to raise magic after creation, and get the magic points for free.

The dilemma of the mystic adept is that they start too weak (unless they ignore one side of their potential), and (given a long enough campaign) end up too powerful. It's a generalist archetype in a setting that favours specialists.

Posted by: Falconer Jul 14 2013, 03:04 PM

Yes Rhat, and your 1.5 x rank is just as much of a joke and just as bad as the current as a flat 2 or rumored 5 karma a piece.

Seriously undercosted.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 14 2013, 08:40 PM

Magician-side and Adept-side can synergize rather well...

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: RHat Jul 15 2013, 12:27 AM

... At Magic 6, it's 9 per power point. What would you consider an appropriate cost?

Posted by: Falconer Jul 15 2013, 03:17 AM

If you bothered to read Rhat. You would have seen my suggested cost earlier in the thread... in karmagen terms...

105 karma at 5x rank for both magic & PP (also remember PP are more valuable in SR5 than SR4 with adept power cost reductions making each point buy more). EG: pay full cost for power points, but don't buy them on top of the existing magic attribute (essentially mystic adepts end up with 2 seperate magic attributes... bought seperately).

5 + 10 + 15 + 20 == Magic 4 for 50 karma. 4 Power points for 50 karma. 100 karma total... so 5 karma leftover for other things.
Or for the pure mage... 105 karma is enough to buy 5 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 + 30 == Magic 6.

Scaling costs keep things in line, the mystic adept gets more than the old style magic 6... split 3/3. Instead a substantial 33% boost to 8 raw points of magic split 4/4 for an even split (the most cost effective if talking in raw total magic). That's pretty far from gimping them at full attribute cost.


Not a joke of no brainer under costing that 1.5x per rank, flat 2 per point, or flat 5 per point is. At those costs why would I ever play a pure adept?! Why not play a mystic adept and simply buy cheap power points and ignore spellcasting/summoning/alchemy! No one seems to have thought of that unintended consequence.

Posted by: RHat Jul 15 2013, 03:28 AM

... Karmagen terms are not relevant to SR5 discussions at this time, Falconer. Whatever the solution is, it has to in some way fit into SR5 Priority.

And if you look at the numbers, MystAds actually progress a good deal slower than PhysAds if you base Power Point costs on Magic. It's actually worth noting that 1.5xMagic is actually too high to fit into SR5 Priority, because 6 points clock in at 54 Karma as compared to a maximum of 50 chargen Karma (if you take full negative qualities).

Posted by: Falconer Jul 15 2013, 03:41 AM

Which is irrelevant to viewing things on the only scale which matters on a long term cost/benefit chart. When viewing characters... tallying the raw karma costs (as if built using karmagen) is generally the best way to compare build efficiency. Generally a build which optomizes 'karma value' in chargen will in the long haul end up stronger than a build which doesn't... since it will always have an 'edge' when buying up things and be able to more effectively spend karma later.


And also... NO ONE has any business coming out of chargen with effectively 12 points of magic! So your assertion is critically flawed. I reject the premise that anyone should be coming out of chargen with 6 points worth of adept powers and 2 points of magic even (let alone 6 or 7).

1.5x is still a complete and utter joke of undercosting... especially if as hinted at by your silly chart. You can buy PP in excess of your magic score. There is no reason to ever take adept then. A full adept pays full costs... while your mystic adept gets 'discount' points again.

Posted by: RHat Jul 15 2013, 03:47 AM

I'm sorry, did you just try to claim chargen is irrelevant?

Also, the pure Adept pays less for power points. The adept just has to pay the initiation cost and select that metamagic, while the mystic adept has to do that AND pay an additional cost for the power point itself. Then, down the line, if you want to go to Magic 7 as a MystAd with 12 power points, it's gonna be expensive - 69 Karma instead of 35, or 80 Karma if you also want to get a Power Point with the new point of Magic.

Posted by: Falconer Jul 15 2013, 04:09 AM

No, you're the one putting words into my mouth yet again.

Chargen should provide roughly balanced characters in terms of cost. Currently the only real yardstick of character 'worth' we have is total karma value. And sorry but someone with 6 magic & 6 PP is not balanced in any way shape or form. It should not be a possibility out of chargen, even if the idiotic bit about 2karma per point in chargen is in there right now. That's the problem in the first place.... tailoring scaling costs to reflect the idiocy possible with the current undercosting does not fix the problem.

Your own chart gives lie to what you just claimed about costss... there should be no entry for magic 1, 6 PP if your current claim is true. That shows gaining power points without raising magic is part of your calculations.

Which is yet another problem with the current rewrite of mystic adepts... you can't make a mystic dabbler... you MUST be a full magician before you can raise PP's... which is completely backwards. In SR3 this was made clear... you lost PP's spent on magic first in all cases... if you lost all your PP spent on Magic from permanent magic loss you were a straight adept and could never be a Mystic Adept again.

You can't make an adept with 6 PP and 2 magic with the current boondoggle... an adept who dabbles in alchemy on the side for example. It's a glaring flaw in the system.

One of the few things they got right in this edition is making it clear that adepts and only pure adepts can gain a freebie PP when they initiate... but that doesn't compare to simply buying cheap PP unless the Magic limitation is in place... which enforces that a mystic adept must be a mage first... and an adept second since the former limits the latter. The two should be uncoupled.

Posted by: RHat Jul 15 2013, 04:26 AM

Hey, you're the one who called the long term "the only scale that matters".

That chart was generated with an EXTREMELY simple algorithm. Magic 1, 6 PP exists on there because I was too damn lazy to bother writing anything to cap power points at twice Magic - after all, it's only purpose is to run numbers. However, the suggesting itself also assumes that the "initiate for power point" option would exist for Mystic Adepts, with the commensurate Karma cost applied to the power point - so that you can, if you want, continue to focus on the Adept side.

Now, I'd certainly like to see Mystic Adepts have the option to be an Adept first and a Mage second, but the whole point of the suggestion is to work within the existing system. If I were going to rewrite them from the ground up, I'd come up with a different system - possibly similar to this one and using an entirely different set of constraints.

I should also point out that any Awakened who has Magic 6 will almost certainly be leaving chargen with more than that - Mentor Spirits grant Adepts free powers, Qi Foci are good for more power points (Rating 4 is easily in reach, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why you can't have more than one), and you can get a Power Focus up to Force 3 at chargen. And a MystAd that spends all his chargen karma on Power Points gets none of those - making him both a less effective Mage and less effective Adept than could be built, while still being an attractive option.

I'm also very skeptical of the idea of using Karma as a balance yardstick because I simply do not want to assume that the Karma costs are all balanced.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 15 2013, 08:02 AM

Mystic Adepts can select the Metamagic, too.

Even if they never select any other Metamagic, they get full Magic Rating and spells / spirits / enchantments on top of what the Adept gets (for pretty much the same cost; only in chargen they are marginally more expensive).

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: RHat Jul 15 2013, 08:14 AM

To be clear, I was referencing part of what would be different in the structure I was proposing. Basically, any time an adept would gain a power point a mystic adept would have the option of doing so, but must pay the additional karma cost to actually get the power point.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 15 2013, 09:09 AM

Ah, I see, sorry. Thought you were talking about the regular rules.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: RHat Jul 15 2013, 09:10 AM

I can see where it might get mixed around.

Posted by: cndblank Jul 15 2013, 03:28 PM

I think 4 Karma would be better. Six magic, that is 24 Karma leaving 26 Karma for other purchases.
And I agree that a higher PP cost will balance them out especially since they usually spread themselves out too much any way.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jul 15 2013, 04:33 PM

You mean leaving 1 for other purchases, maybe. Not everyone takes 25 negative qualities and no positive ones.

I do feel like Mystic Adepts will be able to take the mantle of best combat mage, and I'm actually fine with that. (Well, best until the magician can cast and maintain increased reflexes 10 for that 5d6)

Posted by: Thanee Jul 15 2013, 10:57 PM

Why would the Mystic Adept not use the Increase Reflexes spell? Getting that from the Adept side would be a rather weak choice, if you can get it so much easier.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jul 15 2013, 11:16 PM

Well, mostly because you have to cast and sustain said spell. You need 2 hits to gain +1 REA and +1d6. This means that improved reflexes 3 (adept) is equal to having a constantly sustained Increase Reflexes 6 with all 6 hits and no focus to worry about. (or drain)

Posted by: Psikerlord Jul 16 2013, 06:14 AM

mystic adepts should split their magic attribute. that would be fine.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 16 2013, 09:46 AM

Mostly refering to this part here: "(Well, best until the magician can cast and maintain increased reflexes 10 for that 5d6)"

Why would this be a benefit for the Magician, but not for the Mystic Adept?

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Thanee Jul 16 2013, 09:47 AM

That's like it is now in SR4.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 16 2013, 10:42 AM

It would reduce them to niche and underpowered characters. Mystic Adepts need to stretch themselves very thin already to cover their bases. In SR4, people did this by utilizing Restricted Gear:Power Focus R4 to compensate for the magic loss.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 16 2013, 01:49 PM

Nope, and Nope. Never once used a Power Focus to make up the split magic cost for my Mystic Adepts. Playing one now, with over 300 Karma, and Noone wouild ever have called him underpowered... Still does not have a Power Focus (though he is currently working on designing a Force 3 Netherworld Advisor Ally Spirit).

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 16 2013, 02:08 PM

From what you told us so far about your group, you guys prefer well-rounded characters with DPs of 12+ in their core competences, which is different than the optimization standard of the average SR player, which encourages softmaxing, DPs of 18+ and mechanically trimmed/powergamed characters. The most common (experienced) SR players I've gamed with are more along the lines of Neraph in terms of powergaming, for lack of a better terms. The characters tend to be waterproof and airtight, with minimized weaknesses and iteration proofing. In those groups, a Mystic Adept often feels like a fifth wheel, with some wonky stunts required to carve out his niche where he excels.

Not that I dislike your style. It would be a refreshing change to play/dm for a group of well-rounded characters, but alas, I play the hand I'm dealt

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 16 2013, 02:48 PM

*Hangs Head* Hi, My Name is Tymeaus, and I make Well-Rounded Characters.

No Worries, I get it. Though I have noticed that it is a bit more of a challenge to make a well rounded character with the Priority System of SR5, at least in the style I prefer, anyways.

Posted by: xsansara Aug 27 2013, 03:46 PM

Well the problem here is the following:

Every player with their characters best interest in mind, will make a mystical adept, instead of a making a mage. The has the upside of less astral journeying in the game, but the flavour is seriously broken. Just think about it: make a mage, say a summoner. And then switch over to MysAd. See, you only have to shift a couple of free Karma points and voila some extras to have fun with.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 27 2013, 04:33 PM

Indeed, there is no real "Cost/Consequence" with the Mystic Adept. Sadly.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 27 2013, 04:40 PM

whats so bad about having some "extra Powerpoints for Fun " ?

with a nextra Funny Dence
Medicineman

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 27 2013, 04:44 PM

Nothing, as long as the others can have some extra Essence "for fun and profit."

Posted by: Lantzer Aug 27 2013, 05:30 PM

I have not seen any characters with DP of 18+. In any of our games. 12-15 tops. One character had a 17 DP. What you see on Dumpshock is outside the envelope of normal games I've seen.
(SR 4A)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 27 2013, 05:48 PM

Indeed... My table is hardly the special snowflake that it is often portrayed as here on Dumpshock.

Posted by: Thanee Aug 27 2013, 07:27 PM

Yeah, why pay for anything at all? Just pick what you want.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 27 2013, 07:54 PM

Indeed... That should solve all the problems.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 27 2013, 09:08 PM

I always thought it was weird that Mystic Adept are available at Priority C, same as regular Mages when if you think about they represent the next step up the chain so to speak, even with the loss of Astral projection.

To make them a bit rarer, why not bump the starting priority for a Mysad to B and try the following change:

Priority A Mysad: Magic 4, PP 4, Two Rating 5 Magical Skills, 5 Spells

Priority B Mysad: Magic 3, PP 3, Two Rating 4 Magical Skills, 3 Spells

They can still use their special stat points to raise the Magic stat. PP is not automatically raised to match, they still have to spend 5 Karma per additional PP with the max being equal to current level of Magic so if they want more they have to buy it up.
Likewise they can purchase spells for 5 karma each up to an amount of Magic x2 in spells for Chargen only, so max for Prio A is 8 spells unless they had raised magic during the creation phase with a cap of 12/14 (assuming someone went for that exceptional attribute) which would be 45 Karma spent just to max out starting spells which would be kind of silly when the 5-7 range will give you a decent start.

It is sort of a throwback to the earlier editions of magician adept to start, but they get a fair bit to start without having to shoot themselves in the foot karma-wise unless they want to be running hot out of the gate, but at the cost of not spending that karma on rounding out the character. They will grow faster since Initiation will help both the Magic and PP sides over time so they still have room to develop.

Posted by: RHat Aug 27 2013, 09:50 PM

So how much Karma do you typically have free on your Magicians? It's pretty easy to spend 50 Karma for a Magician, after all. And it's not "a couple of free Karma points", it's 5 per PP.

Posted by: Thanee Aug 28 2013, 01:38 PM

I really don't think they are supposed to be "the next step up".

Full Magician is the top of the awakened types.

It's just that the rules for Mystic Adepts make them a weeeee bit too good.

They are supposed to be the "Jack of all Trades" magic type, not the "Yay! I got everything!" type.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: xsansara Aug 28 2013, 02:23 PM

Well time to crosspost http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39634&st=0&gopid=1257755&#entry1257755 for another try at house-ruling the mysAd. This time not a band-aid.

Now, the increased Karma costs are definitely a band-aid, and an ugly one at that, because, as RHat pointed out, they disallow customization of your new mage. One of the good things that SR5 chargen brought us. But, even at increased costs, taking the mysAd over a full mage is a no-brainer, I am sorry to say. It just forces you to forgo all fluff on the character.

Posted by: DMK Aug 28 2013, 05:48 PM

The Hot Patch errata for Missions proposes that Mystic Adepts must take the Power Point option when initiating to gain any Power Points after chargen. I rather like this option. It means that after chargen a pure Adept or pure Magician will pull away from the MysAd in their own way.

Posted by: DMiller Aug 29 2013, 12:38 AM

+1

(We really do need a +1, or like button )

Posted by: RHat Aug 29 2013, 04:10 AM

... Unless the full mage spends his karma on something other than being a better mage, the Mystic Adept is automatically a worse mage. It's not so much a loss of customization, anyways, as it is a distinct opportunity cost - you can choose not to take 6 Power Points, after all.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 29 2013, 01:47 PM

Only if you consider not having Astral Projection as "being a worse mage." I do not , so.... You can have your Spells and Adept abilities too, and never actually suffer for it. And that is the problem.

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 29 2013, 02:29 PM

I believe this is a major contributor to people viewing Mystic Adepts as too strong. If the key advantage of magicians over mystic adepts is not properly used, then of course they will seem weak in comparison.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 29 2013, 02:36 PM

Chalk me up as one who actually dislikes Astral Reconnaissance. It is just not that big of a draw for me. It is useful, to be sure, but it is not THAT useful, in my opinion. Not so useful that its loss is detrimental or crippling. *shrug*

Posted by: Voran Aug 29 2013, 06:40 PM

Yeah, I guess because I'm kinda oldschool, I always ended up interpreting the Astral Recon stuff as, "Oh great, the rogue is off 'scouting' solo again. Lets go get some food while he monopolizes the GM for 30 minutes". The same later applied to the way I felt about integrating Deckers into an SR game. "Hey, Steve's doing matrix stuff, lets come back in 30 minutes."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 29 2013, 06:48 PM

Astral Recon in our games last all of about 20 Seconds. Long enough to Get a feel for what is going on, and make a Perception roll or two, and throw in the odd stealth roll. Descriptives follow and off we go. There is no need to spend minutes on such things.

Posted by: Voran Aug 29 2013, 07:06 PM

Yeah, that's how we do it now too, usually just a glorified version of perception. But before, when it was actual recon, ugh....memories.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 30 2013, 02:13 AM

I think the point is while those PP are useful the mage will be spending those things on things like more spells, maybe bumping a low magic skill another focus or 2 that the mystake adept wont have making the mage a better mage. I think it is a bit overplayed since the mystic adept will likely be just as good at the core stuff and you are talking a couple spells and maybe a sustaining focus the mystake wont need since he has PP. You can't even move your magic from 6 to 7 with 30 Karma so if that is the "balance" I think it falls short by a wide margin. In game we will see the errata makes it a bit harder on the adept side.

As for astral recon, eh its okay and all but it doesn't do much more than the riggers micro drones. Any place that is magically interesting on the scout and not just perceive level is usually warded so I rarely see the value past perception.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 30 2013, 01:14 PM

The progression in the rules have magically aware characters more of an option. Spending the same character points, they won't be better at anything relative than a non magical character than the actual magic use...

My opinion, the only major issue is you now have an option between an augmented mage/aspected mage with a higher starting magic attribute, and a mystic adapt who can refuse augmentation.

Both just a little more unrealistic in SR4....

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 02:44 PM

It is a matter of only a few spells, yes. In my experience, even with the Split in SR4A, a Mystic Adept is not all that far behind a Full Mage in effect, with Adept Abilities often providing things to the MysAd that more than compensate for losing a point or two of casting Magic.

Indeed... In fact, I often find that Rigger Recon is more comprehensive than Astral Recon is.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 30 2013, 06:24 PM

If you choose to stagnate the roleplaying potential of the rules then yes one element of the said rules will be more comprenhensive than another.
But calling the effort, results of playing a role playing game comprehensive? something based on a larger ruleset that essentially does not exist until it is created bt the playing group? It just says you prefer one guideline over another. Playing your way literally.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 08:39 PM

Perhaps... That is definitley one way of looking at it. Sadly, Astral Recon has just never really been all that much of a benefit to me. Has absolutely nothing to do with Stagnation. Even when we DID do it extensively, it just never really added anything. In fact, Due to Wards and whatnot, Drones are FAR more effective than Atral Recon ever was, as far as I am concerned. *shrug*

Posted by: Smash Aug 30 2013, 10:03 PM

I'm going to see how they play out, but I think they will need a nerf.

In the end I'll probably make players pick whether they want to be more magic or adept focussed. Thus if someone picks adept focus with magic 6 they can have 6 power-points but only cast at magic 3 or vice versa if magician focussed. Then I'll probably get them to pay 2-5 karma (most likely 2) for each point of magic they have both during and after character creation.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Aug 30 2013, 10:15 PM

I'm rather fond of having mystic adepts aspect their mage side while giving them full magic value for both casting and powers.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 31 2013, 01:56 AM

I'm perfectly content with my mystic adept in 4e. He is a great face, rocker, utility mage. I went 2 magic/4 adept and he works out great IMO. And most importantly with the new sustaining focus he just got, he rocks 20 dice in synth guitar.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2013, 02:25 AM

Awesome... Mine is split 3 Sorcery and 2 Adept. He is a Face Occult Investigator. Speaks 13 Languages, and is a specialist in Protective and Manipulation Magic. And he is totally awesome. Doesn't play the Synth guitar, though. Sadly. Been trying to get with Harlequin (he was in Hong Kong for a bit) to rock a bit in the club and learn a thing or two about the instrument, though. *sigh* Maybe when we are done with the Artifact series, I can convince Frosty to put in a good word or two.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 31 2013, 02:35 AM

Funnily enough that is the series we are wrapping up now. I have to say, so far I've really liked the artifact series. I hope the conclusion lives up to the rest of the story.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2013, 02:15 PM

Indeed... It has been an amazing ride so far. I have high expectations on the ending. No matter how it is written, our GM will make it an amazing conclusion. Sadly, no Shadowrun this weekend, due to the Convention that it is town.

Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 1 2013, 06:51 AM

personally, I like X-Kalibur's idea for addressing the Mystic Adept. I am not sure anything needs to change but if I have to house rule Mystic Adepts in my game that is the solution I will be trying. It's simple and easy to track with none of the I have four points in adept abilities and two in spell casting nonsense fourth insisted on using. Personal opinion only, I understand it worked for a lot of people and that's great. I just found it rather cumbersome sometimes.

Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 1 2013, 06:52 AM

Sorry double post.

Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 1 2013, 11:01 AM

I have to support the newer magic rules in SR5 also....

Weighing all options a force 10 or 12, or higher (gasp!) magician or mistic adept if he/she wishes can strike with great damage. With more risk of harm to self than any other character (due to drain).

But allowing total magic attribute for powers and magic just makes them more versitile. and if the rules of previous edition are an indicator, a mystic adept will most likely have to limit how their magic is used just by the weight of their choices in spells, powers, skills, etc, .....

So a mystic adept prefering illusions or chooses to improves skills not related to dmaging effects for example. They are nothing a group of runners or lone stars or corp guns cant handle with a few automatic weapons as is the norm....