Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 9 2013, 07:11 AM

I realize that there's already a SR5 Magic thread (9 pages long) but the majority of it seems to have been done when few people had the books, and most were going on what they heard, rather than what they new, so I though I'd start a thread with what I've been looking at.

I wasn't much of a 4th edition player, but based on experience and discussions with 3rd and 4th, it seems Mages could use a little bit of a nerf bat with regards to say, stunbolt.

But does it sort of seem like they went too far in the other direction?

Drain is Force instead of Force/2. Okay. That's not too bad.
Drain can't be healed magically? I'm good with it, I thought it was silly in the first place.
Drain can't benefit from a medkit? That seems like you're taking it a step further and punishing them.

Aspected Magicians. What the heck happened here?
"Well sure. I can take a normal magician with slightly lower magic, or I can take an aspected magician, have an extra skill, but I lose out on 35 karma of spells or alchemical preparations and projecting. Let me think." sure, I know. Roleplay and not Rollplay. But you could roleplay being an aspected magician by playing a regular magician, that just doesn't take the other two skill groups.

Foci being built quicker seems like an okay idea to me. Except for some odd reason you can't use edge on the test (although on extended tests you can), you're not guaranteed to get the focus force that you want, and if you critical glitch, you don't lose a point of magic. You lose a point of ESSENCE. Really? Losing a point of Magic wasn't enough, you have to twist the knife just a little bit more?

Rituals. So. If I want to cast an illusion at a guy, I have to purchase one ritual. But if the spell I want to send is a combat spell, I have to purchase another ritual? Does this just sound like random karma drain at this point? I'm sort of okay with Watchers and Warding being, well, maybe not rituals, but something to spend karma on so you can do, but as rituals it seems bizarre. If I want to ward someone's house, I have to go there, spend hours setting up the ritual lodge, then spend hours performing the ritual? Or if I'm reading this right, I can perform the warding on an object, then take it to the location, and hope the object doesn't get kicked around or knocked about at the location (not to mention pissing people off by driving a ward with a 6 meter radius throughout town).

The Watcher is even more bizarre. What's the point of a Watcher at this time? Before its "Oh man, I suddenly need a quick messenger or something." In the era of commlinks, that seems less necessary, but even if you do need the watcher for communication, it still takes minutes to summon compared to the near instant of SR3 era. And that's only if you've spend the hours making the lodge first. You're SOL if this issue/need comes up when you're not at your lodge. And to top that off, I can summon a normal spirit as a Complex action. Why not use that if I need a spirit? What's the Watcher's purpose?

Not sold on Alchemical preparations. I kind of like the idea, but the fact that you have to purchase spells separately from what you can cast seems like its just been turned into a karma sink rather than a new ability.

So those ar emy thoughts. What am I missing, what am I not understanding, what am I taking out of context or just wrong about?

Posted by: Blade Aug 9 2013, 10:01 AM

My biggest complain is about spirits. They didn't update the spirits, which were the most broken things about magic in SR4. They've only done a half-assed fix for spirit Edge, which wasn't much of a problem. And the Movement power is now even more broken that it ever was.

Posted by: IridiosDZ Aug 9 2013, 11:23 AM

Drain is a type of fatigue, not physical damage. (except for overcasting or whatever term for how 5e does it). Medkit's really aren't designed to 'heal' fatigue, only rest/sleep can do that.
Fatigue(drain) can be countered by drugs if you need an immediate pick me up, but the user will have to deal with the fall out later.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 9 2013, 12:23 PM

Pretty sure you never could.

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 9 2013, 12:31 PM

I may mention the word Balance in this a bit. As anyone who's read my posts elsewhere will know I don;t often adhere to "game balance" as a perfect ideology. That said I do adhere to the concept of mechanical balance in a ruleset to allow people to have fun with their concepts and not feel utterly overshadowed and overpowered by the rest of the group.

I can get behind the loss of essence in a bad botch for Artifacing. Creating Items of Power (especially high force ones) should have a level of Risk involved and iirc SR3 was similarly dangerous in the making of the high powered stuff.

As for Rituals. Yes they are a bit karma sinky, but I can understand why and I like the fact that you have to learn a different Ritual for a different class of spell. In SR3 all we really needed was one skill and probably centering and that was it for Rituals, now there is a progression and ability aspect to them outside of that and I think it is one of the things that helps balance magic progression vs 'Ware, Tech or Matrix. Everything in the mage's versatility now comes with a choice that has to be made within that bracket.

Drain not being heal-able. Yeah I didn't understand it much either at first glance. But then I reasoned that if it's essentially the force of mana overloading your own Mystic System then I can see why a medkit wont do much about it nor other magics. It fits with the classical "cost" of magic in myth where that which you do to yourself can only be recovered by time. Again it also helps balance things down between Magic and Tech.

Now, RE the Watchers and Warding and so forth. The Hours for creating a Ritual Lodge can be utterly ignored with Reagents. One of the uses of reagents is to use Force in Drams to create a Temporary Ritual Lodge that takes Minutes X Force to set up and lasts 1 hour per Dram. Reagents are VERY useful things to have as a mage in SR5 and are a pretty cool way of having telesma in the game. reagents do a lot. So that makes warding easier and viable outside of the Lodge.

Watchers.... took me some time to work out too. Most of the time a Spirit seems better. However. Watchers exist at hours per hit on the roll, handy if you can roll well and don't want to mess around with Binding spirits given they have the sunset/sunrise thing. There are no Services for Watchers, they just do what you want them too for as long as they are around. Again that's better than a Summoned Spirit for rudimentary remote services, which make Watchers using their Search power REALLY good at what Watchers always used to be good for. Finding things. because there IS no remote service to a Watcher. Also, while they are not as quick as a complex action with Reagents watchers can be summoned pretty quickly still. The watcher Ritual is Force in minutes to do. So if you want a quick F6 Watcher and you have reagents it will take 12 minutes to get one.

Alchemy, yeah not massively sold on that either I think there should be some better trigger descriptions.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 9 2013, 01:02 PM

That depend on how you go about them, personally i was planning on building myssad alchemist with no actual spells just preparations.
Yeah their a karma sink if you try to be able to do everything, but if you look at it as a totally differend ability then it doesn't have to be.

Another way to go is to look at the list of spell and decide what you need as actual spell and what would be better as preparations, you mostly don't need something as both a spell and preparation.
For example increased reflexes might be better as preparation then spell, if you don't expect to get into more then 1 or 2 fights per run, as it circumvents a need for a high force health sustaining focus.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 9 2013, 02:15 PM

Wow. Thanks for pointing out the artificing rules, they are just... I don't know what to say. Guess I will work on some house rules.

Posted by: Seidaku Aug 9 2013, 03:46 PM

The focus creation rules seem more than a little goofy right now. Not only can you explicitly not spend Edge on the test for some reason, but by the RAW it is almost impossible to create a Force X focus using a Force X formula. Why? Consider:

To create the focus, you make a Artificing + Magic [formula Force] v. Formula Force + telesma’s Object Resistance test. Your net hits on this test determine the actual Force of the focus. Given that the formula Force is your Limit on the test, that means that no matter how well you roll, every hit on the opposed roll subtracts from the maximum Force of the focus. How bad is this? Let's run some numbers.

According to the Object Resistance chart on page 295, the lowest possible OR is 3 (for Natural Objects such as trees, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, and so on). So, for a Force 1 formula (the "easiest" formula you can use) the opposed roll is 4 dice. Given that you have a Limit of 1, this means that if those 4 dice yield even a single hit, you fail. Crunching the numbers, this yields about a 19% success rate, assuming you always score at least one hit. Put differently, this means it takes about 5 tries to successfully create a Force 1 focus using a Force 1 formula. Given that it takes (formula Force) days per attempt, that's only about 5 days.

What about higher force formula? Let's assume we're trying to build a Force 6 focus with a Force 6 formula using a telesma with OR 3. Assuming we always roll as many hits as the formula Force Limit allows, this gives us a success rate of 2%. Put another way, it takes an average of 40 attempts to successfully create a Force 6 focus from a Force 6 formula. Given that it requires 6 days per attempt, this means it takes an average of 240 days to make the focus when rolling perfectly.

So far, we've been assuming that you roll as well as the Limit allows. What happens to the numbers if you don't? Let's start by taking a look at a mage who dabbles in artificing:



A non-specialist has a "reasonable" chance of making a Force 1 focus; almost 20%. Given that each attempt only takes a day, it's likely that within a week he or she will be successful. Making a Force 6 focus, on the other hand, is nigh impossible: with the chance of success being a fraction of a percent, it will take such a character an average of almost nine years to create the focus.

What about a specialist? Let's look at the highest pool we can reasonably achieve at character creation: 6 Magic, 7 Artificing (via Aptitude quality) and a specialty in focus creation.



Our specialist has the same chance as the non-specialist to create a Force 1 focus; the Limit of 1 plus the size of the opposing pool really makes this test a question of "do they roll a hit or not"- skill doesn't factor into it. This seems a bit counter intuitive. Shouldn't a character specializing in focus creation be better at making low force foci than one who "dabbles" at it?

More disturbing is the Force 6 stats: our "specialist" still has only a 1% chance of success, and still requires almost two years to succeed.

Alright; how about the absolute pinnacle of metahuman achievement: Magic 18 (Grade 6 initiate, Force 6 Power Focus), Artificing 15 (13 base w/Aptitude, +2 specialty)



There you have it; even with stats well beyond the ken of mortal runners, the chance of making a Force 1 focus is no better than our "dabbler", and creating a Force 6 focus still requires the better part of a year.

Let's try another angle: maybe this behavior is intentional. What if the mechanics are designed to force you to use a formula with a higher Force than the focus you're trying to make? That might be a reasonable interpretation. Let's take a look at our uber-artificer again. He's still trying to make a Force 6 focus, but this time he's using higher Force formulae:



Well, that's interesting. Increasing the formula Force helped.. to a point. A Force 8 formula gave our uber-enchanter a 17% chance of success, but upping the formula Force beyond that quickly caused the success chance to plunge. Counterintuitively, the best way for our uber-enchanter to make a Force 6 power focus is using a Force 8 formula. Not Force 7, not Force 9- Force 8. Even then, with a dice pool about as high as the game mechanics allow, he's looking at an average of 6 attempts and 45 days to succeed.

Perhaps these success rates and times are expected. To me, they seem counterintuitive at best, character concept ruining at worst. The focus creation rules are presented as though you could reasonably expect to make your own foci if you build your character to be good at it. The realities of the mechanics involved make this far from the truth.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 9 2013, 04:01 PM

Lawl.

This is why every TTRPG needs a Statistics Guy.

Posted by: forgarn Aug 9 2013, 04:08 PM

Why would a talismonger be running?? If you are building a character to be a specialist a creating foci, why would you be running when you know that each foci will require (formula force)days to complete? I guess I am looking at characters who have the time to run and crafting, ehh... nice sideline when/if I have time. The above is also why foci and the like cost so much to buy.

Posted by: Seidaku Aug 9 2013, 04:18 PM

Then why bother with rules for crafting foci? That's the main problem, here. The rules are in the core book, right next to the rules for casting spells and using adept powers. A new player is going to read these rules, think "Oh, I can be Magician who specializes in Enchanting", and end up with a character who can't do the very thing he's supposed to be good at. If the intent behind the focus creation rules was to make crafting foci so difficult that it's best left to NPCs, they shouldn't have included them in the core rules. That kind of thing is perfect for a supplement, along with an appropriate disclaimer to warn off players from investing in it.

Posted by: forgarn Aug 9 2013, 04:55 PM

Where I think you are going wrong is that you are trying to dictate the force of the foci you are making. If you are doing that, then you need to plan for it and use a higher rated formula. In addition, on pg. 306 it states:

If you are trying to make a for 6 focus with a force 6 formula, you have to hope that the focus gets no hits at all on the craft test. And those are pretty low odds. But even with your specialist example above, you are going to end up with a force 2 focus on average every time (15 dice for you = 5 avg hits; 9 dice for the focus on avg = 3 hits).

But it looks like you are complaining that a newly created character specifically designed to craft foci cannot create a force 6 focus and I would have to reply, you're damn straight! As is stated, artificing is not for the weak or untrained! Get your artificing, and magic up and use higher force formula so that you can increase the limit and you should be good.

Your specialist that has initiated and has a magic of 18 and an artificing of 15 would get a force 7 focus on average every time if they upped the force of the formula to an 11 instead of a 6.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2013, 05:05 PM

Can you not expend reagents to increase your Limit (or reduce the Foci's resistance)? If that was the case, it would not be bad.

Posted by: Skynet Aug 9 2013, 05:12 PM

You need to spend an equal amount to the maximum possible binding cost (i.e. a [formula rating]-focus of the type you are crafting) in drams of reagents. But no other benefits are mentioned. Those reagents are always spent, whether you complete the focus (i.e. spend karma on it) or not.

One possible solution would be using teamwork and other DP-boosts (specialised tools etc.) to create reasonable foci without being an uber-mage.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2013, 05:15 PM

Well that sucks...

Posted by: Seidaku Aug 9 2013, 05:33 PM

Read my last example again. Your numbers are inaccurate. You're also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man by claiming that I am "complaining that a newly created character ... cannot create a force 6 focus." This is untrue. I provided benchmarks for three different characters attempting the same tasks, and discussed the results. The salient point is that none of those characters has a reasonable chance of success, which is not intuitive from reading the rules.

Posted by: kzt Aug 9 2013, 05:44 PM

Demonstrating once again why having people to who got freaked out by the idea of taking "probability and statistics for dummies" in charge of your game design process doesn't work out well.

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 9 2013, 05:49 PM

I'm slightly more disappointed that Disenchanting a focus doesn't get you some reasonable benefit. At best it takes a huge amount of time and gives you a paltry number of free reagents, but not so many that you couldn't easily sell the focus for a single percent of its value and buy up many, many more reagents.

If you could channel the energy into the creation of a new focus, or at least get several dozen reagents for your trouble, I could see it, but for now it looks like time not well spent.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 9 2013, 06:17 PM

In SR3, making foci was a long and arduous process depending on what you wanted to make. In SR4 I assume it was similar. In SR5 its designed to look like its possible for a runner to do it themselves without taking 54 years to do it. Got some extra cash and downtime of a week? Whip up that Focus whose formula you just bought from the talismonger (or created last month). Its only Force 3, so you only need 3 days off. You can handle that. If bug spirits invade your teammate's safehouse, he can deal with it for 3 days on his own, right?

But the actual rules are something else. You say that Seidaku is complaining that he can't make a Force 6 foci at character generation.

But its not just that.

Depending on how your GM handles it, you can't make a Force 1 Foci at character generation using a Force 1 formula. Why? Because to do this you're rolling against a pool of (atleast) 4 dice, which is probably going to get that 1 hit to negate your limited 1 hit. You're going to have to make plans for a higher force. 2 might do it, ubt you're hoping for a poor roll. 3 might be better.

And this is for something that's a piece of carved driftwood.

Want something with the level of complexity of say, a brick? Maybe a piece of leather? OR of 6. Want a rating 2 focus? Well, that pieces of leather can autobuy 2 successes (2+6), so don't bother with a Force 2 formula. Force 3 formula? That puts its dice pool at 9, so on average its going to roll 3 successes, so that's no good. Force 4 formula? 10 pool, still going to get on average 3 successes. Force 5 formula? 11 dice. Going to get 3 successes on average. Congrats. You made your force 2 focus. With a rating 5 formula. And that's only if the dice rolled slightly below average (and if you rolled 5 hits).

So to make your Force 2 Weapon Focus (Brick), you're looking at having to create a Force 5 Formula for it, and hope that you roll well enough to get 5 hits (don't forget, edge can't be used), and hope that the opposed test rolls slightly below average.

So it seems incredibly random to me.

Fortunately you can break down foci and recoup some of your reagent loss (not much, 1/3rd) and try again, but keep in mind that each time you try to create a foci, you run the risk of critical glitching, and losing an entire point of ESSENCE.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 9 2013, 06:33 PM

I had missed that reagents could set up a temporary lodge, but its still pretty time consuming. The Search function close to sunrise/sunset was about the only thing I could come up with as well.

Slightly better than I thought, but still sort of in the "Well. I could learn to summon a watcher. Or I could learn a new spell, or fund a good chunk of my next initiation or my next foci, or skill boost, or attribute boost..." category. Nice, but most likely way down on the list.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2013, 06:37 PM

So, just to clarify a bit... Now, in SR5, Object resistance is rolled in opposition, rather than it being a Threshold? Not really sure I like that either. Way too much swing in the results. Sheesh.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 9 2013, 06:40 PM

Watchers have gotten less and less useful since 3rd. 3rd they were OMFGyes useful.

Their Search power was different than other spirits. In that it always succeeded, without fail. The determining factor was time. The only way for a watcher to fail to find something was if the time duration was greater than its remaining summon duration.

Other spirits had to roll dice and would (more often than not) just fail completely.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 9 2013, 06:42 PM

as some have suggested, perhaps teamwork is the solution. each assistant who gets at least one hit on a test will add 1 to your limit. note that while there is a limit to how many dice can be added, there is no actual limit to how much your limit can increase (although at some point, extra assistants won't really provide meaningful assistance since you won't have the dice pool to benefit from it).

but anyways, that does change things dramatically. you can now start with a force 1 recipe, have 9-10 assistants, and reasonably expect a force 6 focus if your dice pool cooperates.

(mind you, it does say something in terms of usefulness to the PCs that i'm suggesting you have more assistants than the size of the typical shadowrunning team).

Posted by: forgarn Aug 9 2013, 07:10 PM

Actually no, if you reread my post it state "it looks like" meaning that is the way I read it. If it was not meant that way, then I misinterpreted it. Also if you think about it for a second, it would be improbable for anyone to assume that you can create a force X focus from a like force formula due to the fact that the formula force is the limit. You would need to get the max number of successes and have the focus get no successes at all for it to happen. A very slim chance for that to happen no matter what the experience of the character.

Please show me where my numbers are inaccurate. And carefully note that I state "on average" for everything. The average number of time you will get a 5 or 6 on a d6 is 1 in 3 or 1/3. So if I am rolling 3 dice, on average 1 of those dice will be a 5 or a 6. That is what I did for everything. Yes, I know that "on average" is never average and that some nights you can't miss and other nights you can't get 3 hits out of 35 dice, but the average is the average.

Another thing brought up was breaking down the focus for 1/3 the reagents recoup, but why? Why not just sell it? Market is (force * 3k to 18k). So your force 2 power focus is worth 36k and you sell it for 25% to 50% and you still come out ahead (with the exception of time).

Posted by: Finster Aug 9 2013, 07:16 PM

Guys, this is really bad. The changes to Foci-building and Rituals is the last straw for me. I got the PDF for the rulebook, but I'm not going to be investing anything else into SR5 unless they do a complete rewrite. These aren't issues that can be errata'd. Nothing short of a major rewrite will fix all of the issues across all the different mechanics. Guess I'll wait for SR5.5. For now, I might just houserule SR4 thusly:

• Change drain to Force instead of Force/2.
• Direct combat spells do NetHits for damage instead of Force + NetHits.
• Nerf spirit Edge somehow.

With that, I've got everything from SR5 that I actually like as far as the magic rules are concerned.

Posted by: Skynet Aug 9 2013, 08:16 PM

I was reading that at first too. But the limit-increase isn't for the final test itself, but for the team-leaders roll to increase the DP for the final test by the number of successes. Better than nothing, but you still need a higher formula than the desired focus-rating.



If you change the drain to force, don't forget the modfiers (for example -3 for a single target combat spell, -1 for an area -effect one).

Posted by: HugeC Aug 9 2013, 08:19 PM

Here's my shot at house rules for Artificing. PEACH! (Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s3xwI3dJWdOqsNeojAeBhaQ-cSRcGG_7xRjrYvmeD2w/edit?usp=sharing

I was trying for something that was more predictable, less punitive (I mean, Essence loss, really?), and that provides a PC who invests in it a nice discount on focus prices at the cost of large amounts of time. I do not expect that PC will ever actually exist, mind.

I included a little analysis to see if an NPC who makes foci could actually make a nice living. I mean, it's 12-hour days, but the money is good. Plus there is a house rule in there about harvesting reagents, again with some economic analysis.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 9 2013, 08:24 PM

after all assistants have rolled, and potentially added to the leader's dice and limit, the leader attempts to perform the actual test.

there is no test by the leader to see how well the leader was assisted by the assistance. the leader only makes one test, and that test is the test to perform whatever task everyone was working together on. for the limit to apply to any other test, particularly one that never actually occurs, would be completely nonsensical.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 9 2013, 08:29 PM

On 1 you'd still have to reduce drain by ~3 points.

F/2-1 for something like Stunbolt ended up as F-4 in SR5. It wasn't a strait "Oh, they changed F/2 to F."

Posted by: Skynet Aug 9 2013, 08:34 PM

I haven't calculated it, but it might become cheaper to buy a virgin telesma, than to do with an (initially cheaper) mundane telesma, due to the high demand of reagents per day (9000¥ worth of reagent for a power-focus per day).

Also did you consider the reduced follow-up rolls during extended tests (-1 cumulative die for each roll after the first). With an OR of 6 (mundane telesma) and a force 4 power focus (24 karma to bind) that's a threshold of 144. A threshold of 30+ is listed as extreme. Maybe apply the OR to the interval instead of the threshold.


My bad, somehow I got it right at first and then thought I got it wrong on my second (but still rushed) reading.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 9 2013, 08:57 PM

You don't spend reagents during telesma preparation, only during focus crafting. The higher OR was supposed to just make the telesma preparation step take longer and produce more drain (but see below).

Dorp! Forgot about that. Gonna have to fix that then. I wanted there to be little bits of drain throughout the day, rather than one big drain at the end of each day.

I'll think about that some more tonight and ping here when I've fixed it.

EDIT: House rules doc has been updated.

Posted by: null_void Aug 10 2013, 02:48 AM

Was thinking about this the other day, since I had considered making a character who worked at as a minor talismonger as her "legitimate" cover. The only thing I could come up with that seemed to help with the limit on the final focus creation test was the "Special Work Area" lifestyle option (page 374). Unless you're not allowed to use that for magical crafting? Of course, that would introduce its own problems, as you could then hypothetically make a focus with force two greater than the formula. Not sure what the authors intended here.

Posted by: vladski Aug 10 2013, 06:49 AM

Well said. This is like crap icing on shit cake. Enough. Between this and the always connected matrix rules for cyber, the accuracy bonuses instead of +dice bonuses for smartlinks, the (IMO) horrible priority system for character creation, the revamp to the combat actions, the rather ramshackle proofing of the book... jsut enough. I, too, bought the PDF to see the new rules. I was intrigued by a lot of things mentioned prior to the release. I liked the idea of accuracy. Still do. But it's implementation sucketh. It turns out that the only thing I actually think is an improvement over 4th is the "new" (retro 3rd edition) Initiative system. And I already fixed the one I didn't like as well in my 4th games.

SR5 is full of great ideas and decent intentions. But, I really feel the core design team dropped the ball... massively. To me, these rules seem barely playable and I can't see anything but frustration coming from my players if I switch. I have issues with SR4, but they were all fixable easily enough. I definitely wasn't fond of a few things that came in the expansions and didn't really like some of the changes made going to SR4A. But the core of the game was completely playable with jsut a few tweaks on my part as GM. The game stands on it's own. I can enter into ANY game and play a stock character and play by the stock rules and have a blast. Not so with SR5. I am beginning to feel like I need to take half the book and the common elements of the system (combat, character generation, etc) and completely revise them. That is NOT a good game. I might as well have re-written 4th on my own if I have to put that much efffort into it.

This doesn't even address the opinion I hear frequently on this board from the supporters of the new system: "Change it for your home game. There's no SR police coming to your door." That's fine if i want to play solely home games. But if I want to play Missions, if I want to play SR games at conventions, I am completely stuck with these poorly thought out rules. They will be excluding me from the SR community (provided it survives the edition change.) That is not fun. I have been playing SR for over 15 years, played in many tournaments, played in many one-offs at conventions. ran my own games at conventions and figure I am personally responsible for bringing maybe 20-25 people to SR versions 3 and 4 and all the books, etc. those people purchased Not to mention myself owning nearly every SR book produced from FASA, Fanpro and Catalyst. After buying the PDF of 5th edition, I can sadly say I won't be purchasing anything else for SR as long as there IS a 5th edition.

I do want to say that my disappointment in the game itself is not a reflection of how I feel about the freelancers that worked on the system. I can tell from the many threads here, since release, that the game frequently did not go the direction they wanted it and they are rightfully proud of their individual work (as they should be!) I feel sorry for them as well, since they deserved something better for all their hard work.

Vlad

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 10 2013, 08:30 AM

The focus creation rules aren't bad, they're just weird and a little counter-intuitive. To actually create a F6 power focus you need to have:

1) A F10 formula (27,000 nuyen -- reusable) and an OR3 telesma (~4 hits)
2) About 30 dice on the artificing test (~10 hits)
3) At worst 60 drams of reagents (1200 nuyen) per attempt
4) A F10 magical lodge (5000 nuyen -- reusable) -- a temporary lodge won't cut it since you'd have to spend too much time replacing it every day
5) A little luck
6) 6 Karma

Of course the focus is worth 108,000 nuyen, so the monetary outlay seems pretty low in comparison. It's the ridiculous amount of skill you need to craft such a thing that's the biggest investment.

Honestly you have to be about the best artificer in the known world to actually make a F6 focus. Considering 12 skill with an appropriate specialization you're still looking at Magic 16+ to be able to craft them semi-reliably.

I guess that's why their availability is 18R to 24R, making you have to be about the best negotiator in the known world to find one on the black market.

Posted by: Skynet Aug 10 2013, 08:41 AM

(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s3xwI3dJWdOqsNeojAeBhaQ-cSRcGG_7xRjrYvmeD2w/edit?usp=sharing)
Looks reasonable, though the threshold of [Force] might be a bit much (on the other hand high-rating foci should indeed be rare).
Is the final crafting-step an extended test or just a chain of independent tests?

Disenchanting: You can get a "maximum of one third of the total drams of reagents needed to create the focus". Since the amount of drams depends on the amount of time it took the artificer to finish the focus, this limitation can't be reasonably calculated.

Reagent gathering: Did you intend a limit on how much a given area can be 'milked' for reagents? The core book has a 'cooldown' of 2 days per dram for an area of around a hectare (p.319-320). So for 250 drams/month you'd need a harvestable area of about (250*2/30) 17 hectares per reagent gatherer.

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 10 2013, 09:30 AM

Just read through Artificing again and yep, as written it feels a bit... Odd. However there seems to be a failure to clarify some rules for intent in the writing. Apparently just like in SR3 the more you personally hand craft the object to be a Foci the easier it is to achieve. There's no actual rule for how that works but I'd go with (Crafting skill + stat [inherant limit] vs 2xObject Resistance <6hours>) net hits lower the targets object Resistence for the Artificing roll. Also I'd let Reagents be used to raise the Limit (max Force x 2, otherwise there's no point to the formulae).

So our chargen Mage with Magic 6 Enchanting 4 wants to make a Force 3 Foci. He also has the "Woodcarving" knowledge skill (professional category) at 4.

So he takes his natural hickory branch and then works with it himself for 10d6 vs 6d6 granting on average 1 net hit every 6hrs. He elects to spend 12hrs working on the wand. His 2 net hits reduce the OR by 2.

He then prepares the Reagents to make the Focus (required = Karasa cost to bond, min 3) and then spends 6 drams to set the Limit.

Now his enchanting roll is Magic + Enchanting (10) [limit 6] vs Force + modified OR (4). Granting on average 2net hits, so not quite the F3 he wanted but a working F2 foci none the less.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 10 2013, 09:37 AM

I made it a chain of independent tests. Unlike an extended test where you can take a rest in between, you are supposed to keep doing these tests every day until the focus is finished. I will clarify that in the document.


For any crafting days where the threshold wasn't met, those reagents are wasted, so they don't count towards the amount of reagents in the focus, which is always Force times the value in the table. I've clarified that in the document.


Ah, I just thought it was 1 hectare per gathering test, not 1 hectare per dram. I should probably reduce the "regen time" to 1 day per dram harvested since I doubled the drams you get. Doc updated!

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 10 2013, 11:04 AM

Everything but spirits was nerfed for mages, so they will need to rely on them more than ever now.

Posted by: Skynet Aug 10 2013, 11:40 AM

It is 1 hectare per test, but the area needs (drams x2) days to 'recharge'.

Posted by: DerWish Aug 10 2013, 01:44 PM

I was just about to start a SR5 game, I happily purchased my shiny new SR5 pdf and eagerly read through the whole book. High hopes and everything... and then I read the Artificing... and
I registered on dumpshock to tell you... I am the Common Joe, who buys SR products since SR2ED, and only reads forums to find pitfalls before encountering them in middle of a gaming session.
And now I feel seriously let down with SR5 Core book, but this thread is about Artificing so let me be on topic.

Artificing is one of the obviously and seriously broken rules in SR5.
After reading it once together with my regular group and after a short discussion, we quickly came up with an example, how to collapse the Focus market...

A bit-over specialized character ( Artificing 6 (+2 Craft Power focus) + Magic 6 ) can easily brake the rules as written.

1) Let's set up a Force 1 Lodge
2) Let's create a Force 1 formula for the Power focus, it takes 1 day only and it's easily done.
3) Now let's create that Power Focus:
We are starting with a Force 1 formula, so no worries drams cost is based on the Force 1 formula (6)... so it is still cheap.
Let's spend a day as it only takes 1 day as per the original lvl.
Base test would be 14(1) vs 4, but our Mage is a clever guy...

So he sets up his the artificing room in his apartment (buy that 1k extra for that 2 limit increase) and calls over his 3 mage buddies (L4 contacts) for a day long enchantment party...
Four of them working together will make something, any writer could have seen a miles away...

2 talismonger contacts -> Enchantment 6 + Magic 4 + Edge 3-> 6(2)
A street mage contact -> Artificing 1 + Magic 6 + Edge 3 -> 1(1)

At the end it's 21(6)vs4... did I just created a lvl5 Power focus, on average... basically for the base karma cost?

Cost:
500 for the Lodge
1000 for the specialized work area
6 drams for the lvl 1 Power Focus formula -> 120 & 5 Karma for the sealing.
A day worth of work from 3 other mages, who were happy to help out a friend for a day.

Gain: A Power Focus 5 = 90k with normal availability: 20R
I don't even know what to say...

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 10 2013, 03:58 PM

The extra hits from the specialized work area is kind of interesting, as is the teamwork. It might make it more possible perhaps.

Of course, it also looks like you could abuse it the other way as well

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 10 2013, 11:28 PM

Another question.

Lets say my mage decides to wear a pair of glasses. Maybe they want thermal sometimes, maybe low light, whatever.

If I'm not using any enhancements at the time (such as thermal) then are the glasses still just...glass? Or is everything, including the normal view electronic in the first place, and thus I'd have to raise my glasses up each time I wanted to cast?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2013, 02:13 AM

If you are not using the augments within the glasses to cast, then it should be no problem. Alas, It probably does not work that way, though.

Posted by: Critias Aug 11 2013, 07:40 AM

What makes you say that?

Posted by: Ryu Aug 11 2013, 12:22 PM

Base rule: Artificing + Magic [formula Force] v. formula Force + telesma’s Object Resistance

It is always nice to find stuff on both sides of the equation, and limiting hits on one side only certainly makes stuff easier to get.


Base statistics for dp 24 vs 12 dice (FF 9 + OR 3), not counting the limit:
(Sorry for the ugly tables)

Next step: Capping at the limit (formula force 9)




Next step: For each number of hits, multiply P(Mage:number of hits) with P(focus: at least (desired force=6) hits less). Add those numbers up. 6 hits required, 9 hits max:


Odds of creating a Force 6+ Focus: 20%.


Next step: doing it over and over, or odds of having 1+ foci of force 6+ after N attempts


Any errors?


The underlying design (judged on nothing but the math) is that high force foci are truly special now. Look at the drain code of (Formula Force)+2*(Focus hits).

Edit: Epic Fail at adding up corrected.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2013, 02:55 PM

Rampant Cynicism, I guess. Look at all the threads that popped up about that very thing in SR4A. Bound to crop up again in SR5.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2013, 02:57 PM

See, I Always considered High End Foci to be special to start with. Why would I need an unfriendly/unworkable mechanic to reinforce that?

Posted by: Ryu Aug 11 2013, 03:20 PM

Within the new skill range of 1-12 the mechanic is workable. I don´t like the loss in competence on behalf of starting chars, yet that could easily be corrected for a campaign.

In this case the compensation is that lower rated foci are more useful - as long as background count is only a negative dp mod you suffer on all magic activities anyway.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2013, 03:52 PM

Which is one of the things I hate about the new Background Count. It SHOULD affect Foci just as much as a Mage/Adept. I like that it is a double whammy in SR4A. BCG of 2, and you lose 2 magic, and all your foci lose 2 Magic as well. So, that Mage who relies upon his Foci can no longer rely upon them. If it is just a DP mod (like the proposed Errata in SR5), then that dynamic effectively goes away. I weep for the future.

Posted by: Ryu Aug 11 2013, 04:02 PM

My various characters use of magic is already ...watched. I´m afraid the group wouldn´t let me play the mage under SR5.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 11 2013, 04:54 PM

I feel slightly less bad about the difficulty of creating a Force 6 focus, but requiring a 24 dice pool is grim.

Now calculate how easy it is to create a Force 9 formula (extended test 81), even burning 6-8 points of Edge along the way. I'd assume that not only are Force 6 foci very rare, the few that are out there all look the same because they're based on the same handful of high Force foci that hot shit researchers managed to bash out with some freak luck.

Posted by: Ryu Aug 11 2013, 08:17 PM

You do not exactly require a dicepool of 24, that is "merely" an obtainable level in the game world.

Don´t forget about teamwork, getting a magical group or paid helpers and the Leadership skill is worth it.

Build your starting mage with Magic 6, Edge 3, Artificing 4 (+spec), power focus 4. With Leadership 4, two helpers should be able to provide limit+2/pool+4. That should be able to pull of the trick (at least F8).

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 11 2013, 09:00 PM

All they have to do is clarify that every applicable source of the penalty stacks. So I'm casting a power bolt in a BGC 2 I'm at -2 dice, I'm also using a power focus 4 to supplement my spell now I'm at -4 dice.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 11 2013, 09:20 PM

How do you see Leadership mattering here? I only see the p. 142 Direct use, which is intended as a sort of inspirational pick-me-up before a skill test on their next Action Phase. I don't know that I'd allow it to help an ongoing multiday effort.

But the teamwork rules on p. 49 seem to work fine: plus one limit per assisting team member just using the same skill, no leadership required. The extra dice are just gravy, since the limit is the real killer here.

Incidentally, the leadership skill would be something nice to put on spotter working with a sniper.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 11 2013, 10:15 PM

Does anyone have suggestions for partially reversing the Counterspelling nerf? I like that you can team up on a mage to overwhelm his Counterspelling + Shielding, but only allowing the pool to refresh once per combat turn seems too harsh. I'm thinking it refreshes on your next action, which lets you go toe to toe with a guy who has the same number of multiple actions per turn, but you can still get curb stomped by three guys with one phase all casting at the beginning of the turn.

Posted by: DMiller Aug 12 2013, 12:49 AM

Until (if) this gets changed in errata, Watchers are not viable in the field. Fine for leg-work before you leave your hide-out but once you are in the field or on a long mission they are useless. A lot of the missions we tend to do are far and away from home, our one summoner will be using spirits for all his search needs from now on since watchers are nearly impossible to use once away from your lodge.

*Emphasis added by me.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 12 2013, 03:26 AM

Well, that certainly puts paid to watchers for most cases, doesn't it?

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 12 2013, 03:43 AM

Watchers can be used in the field if you just take 5 minutes to summon one before leaving the lodge. They last for a number of hours and are pretty efficient. Just don't decide you need one in the middle of a run.

Posted by: DMiller Aug 12 2013, 05:09 AM

Spending 5 minutes before you leave for your mission works well, you’ll get on average a watcher with 6 dice in its pool to do most things and you’ll only have to resist 3DV of drain. Of course if you are away from your Lodge due to the mission requirements for more than a day or so, no watchers for you.

On the other hand, you can spend a complex action and summon an actual spirit. A Force 5 spirit of (anything in the book) has (or can have) the Search power. The spirit doesn’t require a Lodge to summon and will only roll 5 dice to oppose you leading to 1.66 DV of drain. The Force 5 spirit will have 10 (more or less) dice to complete any task that the Watcher could have done, and will be able to provide more options.

Watchers have never been the best choice for most things, but they were cheap, fast to summon and in groups could actually be useful in a pinch. After the abuse that they have seen in 5th edition, I doubt anyone will use them for anything more than flavor because they are simply not worth the effort. Everything a watcher can do a spirit can do faster and better with less drain.

Watcher
Pros:
Long duration
Unlimited services
Doesn’t count against total available spirits

Cons:
Requires lodge
Higher drain than similar force spirit
Lower stats than similar force spirit
Lower skills than similar force spirit

Spirit
Pros:
Lower drain than similar force watcher
No lodge required
Complex action to summon
Higher skills than watcher
Higher attributes than watcher
More powers and capability than watcher

Cons:
Max 1 unbound spirit at a time
Limited services
Lasts until sunrise/set

Overall in my opinion Watchers just don’t measure up any more. The really dumb little twits of SR4 were much more useful than the now poorly implemented Watchers of SR5. Changing one small item would drop them back into the realm of usability. Make the Watcher Ritual not require a Lodge. With everything else that has been done to them, this by itself would bring them back into usability. Other tweaks might make them better, but just removing the Lodge requirement would make them okay to use.

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 12 2013, 05:22 AM

The biggest advantage Watchers have is that they can talk, so they can do the following, which a spirit can't do:

Go patrol the area around the facility entrance and if anyone that's not in this room right now enters, assense them and then come find me. Then tell me how many of them there are, what they're carrying, and if there are any magic users in the bunch.

Posted by: DMiller Aug 12 2013, 05:26 AM

Actually a Spirit can do that without even coming back... It has a mental link with the summoner and can simply report what it sees. Now it may not be able to come back and manifest and tell the Street Sam what it saw, but as long as it can notify the summoner, it's all good.

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 12 2013, 05:33 AM

Well, yeah, okay, it can go find and tell Bob the Troll instead. Getting a spirit to do that would require a number of remote services, which would require binding.

Posted by: DMiller Aug 12 2013, 05:45 AM

Being a messanger is the only thing that a Watcher is better at than a spirit. The Spirit is faster to summon and cheaper to summon (both in physical cost and drain).

Isn't a comm-unit supposed to provide 2-way (or more) communication (without drain or needing a lodge)?

Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 12 2013, 08:25 AM

I find this very weird, to put it kindly - if a player wants to create a F3 focus, why would they think they could use a F4 formula? The formula tells the mage how to create a F4 focus, not a F3 focus. It's supposed to be a very precise recipe - what with all the flavor text about different traditions and form/force/function and making "that specific focus".

You can hand-wave it a little bit, but it's still really, really counter-intuitive in my book.

Posted by: Korwin Aug 12 2013, 09:38 AM

In SR5 all Enchanter are Vamps?

Posted by: Scyldemort Aug 12 2013, 12:23 PM

I must be missing something, because I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing.

What I read is this, on page 307 of the 5th Edition core rulebook: Crafting a focus is Artificing + Magic [Formula Force] v. formula Force + telesma's Object Resistance, no edge allowed, net hits are the focus's Force. Takes a number of days equal to the Force in the focus formula. Seems like something easily accomplished if you're specced for it and have a week or two of downtime.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 12 2013, 12:40 PM

ok.

so take a force 6 focus formula and see how often you actually get a force 6 focus as the result.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 12 2013, 12:42 PM

It's easily accomplished if you have a moderately high formula, if you use an unprocessed telesma, if you have a decent dice pool, and if you only want a Force 1-2. If you want a Force 3-4 you need some luck and a highish end formula. If you want a Force 5-6, well. See preceding.

If you want a processed telesma with a high OR just shoot yourself in the head.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 12 2013, 01:06 PM

i.e. you need the recipe for a Force 9 to get a Force 6.

Think about that for a second.

To get a 6 layer chocolate cake, you need to follow the recipe that makes 9 cherry pies.

Posted by: Vicar Aug 12 2013, 01:59 PM

I think maybe, instead of thinking of it as a "Formula for [Force X] Focus", rather it is a "[Force X] Formula for Focus".

Subtle yet distinctive difference. Semantics and all that.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 12 2013, 02:18 PM

That's not the description given in the rulebook though. The rulebook goes out of it's way to talk about how specific a formula is, how it's a very precise recipe and all that (plus how it's worked in SR4, can't remember previous versions).

Again, it's possible to wrap your mind around it, it's just that you shouldn't have to according to current and previous editions descriptions of formulas.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 12 2013, 02:56 PM

Is a Force 9 focus formula even obtainable? You'd need 81 hits on an extended Arcana + Magic [Astral] test.

Assuming Magic 6, Arcana 6, Focus Design specialization, and average hits:

Total hits: 35

So you'd need to get a little bit lucky for a Force 6 formula. You might be able to get there by using Edge. Of if you're an UberArcanist with 26 dice. Oooh, or if you've got like 12 mages working on it together; I bet an Arcana professor at Texas A&M&M with all of his grad students assisting him could make one.

Posted by: Scyldemort Aug 12 2013, 07:45 PM

Oh. Right. So you need a specialist, likely with assistants helping her, to create a Force 6 focus successfully.
*ponders*
Probably helps to have a Power Focus. Probably *really* helps to have a Force 6 power focus.

... yo dawg, I heard you liked making focuses, so I made a focus that you have to make before you can effectively make a focus.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 12 2013, 09:48 PM

I assume they screwed this up, and still intend mundanes to be able to design formulas, so I'd use Logic instead of Magic since that's the linked ability in the Skills chapter. So your uber formula researchers have 9-11 Logic dice (assuming Cerebral Booster or a quickened Increase Logic) and 10-12 Arcana dice, plus speciality and Edge.

Yeah, to get seriously powerful formulas you'll need a team of badasses doing a teamwork test. I imagine a magical Manhattan Project trying to create a Force 12 formula.

Posted by: Scyldemort Aug 12 2013, 10:56 PM

Why would you need a Force 9 focus? Isn't that just going to unnecessarily raise your difficulty and give dice to the opposing side of the roll? Wouldn't it be better to try to max out your dice for achieving a Force 6 focus, needing 3 fewer hits for yourself and giving the opposition 3 fewer dice to roll?

For that matter, why the assumption that every hit on the opposing side removes 1 from the maximum power of your artifact, when the actual rule is that your net hits are the power of the focus? Assume 9 dice on the opposing side (virgin telesma, force 6 focus). Average dice will give them 3 hits. If you can manipulate your dicepool such that you can gain 9 hits on the roll, would that not give you a reasonable shot at crafting your 6 force focus successfully?

Or is it Astral Limit that is the issue? Assuming you need an Astral limit higher than the fairly easy to achieve 8 at chargen, take a few levels of 'Focused Concentration' and hang an 'Increased Logic' spell on yourself, or quicken said spell, and your mental and astral limits will jump immediately. Alternately, you can take Indomitable at chargen. Three times. +1 limit each time.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 12 2013, 11:02 PM

Net hits:
My hits minus its hits.

This is equivalent to each one of its hits subtracting from maximum power, because my hits are capped at the [Force] of the formula. If I'm regularly capping out the number of hits I can get (i.e. rolling 14 dice against a limit of 4) then each hit the focus gets on the other side of the roll reduces the maximum power of the focus.

Posted by: Scyldemort Aug 12 2013, 11:29 PM

Aah, OK, I understand. Thanks for explaining.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 12 2013, 11:35 PM

It seems all of this nonsense is the result of the limit being set on the wrong value. Instead it should be something like the (primary) mage's Magic. (if using limits at all...I would entirely throw 'em out myself).

Posted by: Scyldemort Aug 12 2013, 11:47 PM

Hmm. I don't think Limit should apply here at all, and the game should just content itself with saying, "net hits in excess of the Force of the Focus formula are lost."

Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 13 2013, 12:32 AM

Yeah, or change the amount of time it takes to make the focus or something.

Or maybe in the magic splatbook, have some "quirks" that can be chosen based on how many net hits exceeded the threshold. A magic sword weapon focus that glows in the presence of enemies and so on...

Posted by: Jaid Aug 13 2013, 12:54 AM

your hits are capped at the force of recipe you're using.

your net hits are used to determine the rating of focus you actually get.

so yes, every hit on the other side of the equation does reduce the force of the focus. that is exactly what is happening. because you are capped at 6 hits on a force 6 focus formula, and you will only be able to get 6 net hits on that if the opposing side of the equation has 0 hits, period.

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 13 2013, 01:56 AM

A much cleaner rule would be:

Choose a Force to work at, must be equal to or greater than the formula Force.

Make an Artificing + Magic [Force] (Formula Force) test.

Succeeding with no net hits takes double time, net hits can be divided into the base (formula force days) time.

Hits (after applying the limit) above your Magic make the drain physical.

Drain is Force + OR.

Drain values based on working Force rather than the formula force.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 13 2013, 08:47 AM

So we did a bit of playing around with the rules tonight.

Limits in magic are kind of weird.

Other than artificing that is.

I noticed it first when someone summoned a spirit. They were limited by the Force.

It actually puts spirits into the category where the higher the Force of the spirit is, the more services you can get out of them. 2 spirits, Force 4 and force 8. Sure, drain is going to suck on that Force 8 spirit, but you're also likely to have say, 5 services with it, compared to the 2-3 with the Force 4.

It just seems odd to me that the more powerful it is, the more services you're going to get out of it potentially (maybe its just the 3rd Edition player in me where I'm used to the more powerful summonings having fewer services).

Spell limits seem fine to me, though we were just messing around with them and I didn't get to see them in action too much. Reagents seem different. I want to say they're abusable by upping the limit on Force 1 or 2 spells, but then I consider that the effects of alot of spells are probably limited by the force. Though it may be an expensive work around for Direct Combat spells.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 13 2013, 09:20 AM

If we take an extreme example, summoning a F1 spirit results in no services 33% of the time and only 1 service 66% of the time, no matter how powerful a mage you are.

And now someone will interject with "but reagents!"...

Reagents are the canned answer to every problem with magic that might be caused by the badly implemented limit rules. Sure it doesn't make sense that you'll get more services from a higher Force spirit, but reagents! I feel like the spirit of Billy Mays needs to be hawking these things.

Posted by: DerWish Aug 13 2013, 09:59 AM

I extremely like the idea and would solve all limit related silly issues.

( Artificing + Magic [MAGIC] vs Force + Object resistance ) [Force]

You might say I am overdoing on the Limit front, but that's SR5 is about.

This would solve
- the silly example I was able to put together couple of pages back.
- resolve situation where you have to use a higher focus formula to get the intended focus.
- the teamwork bonus would still make sense as top notch focus 6+ can be only made by groups or with specialized equipment.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 13 2013, 10:53 AM

I am guessing they used Magic instead of Logic because they wanted shamans not to suck at it.

While I like the idea of a Manhattan Project to create a high-Force focus formula (I mean, that's the basis of several runs right there), with RAW the way it is, you are way better off using a Force 1 focus formula and like 20 guys doing teamwork tests to bump the limit up when you create the focus.

Posted by: Wulffyre Aug 13 2013, 12:03 PM

One thing that might make crafting at least somewhat more viable if you simply take the Limit as the Cap for your net successes, but still base the comparative roll against all your hits regardless of Limit.

i.e. somebody has 9 hits with a Limit of 6 and the Focus has 2 hits. This takes away 2 from his 9 total hits (down to 7) and leaves him with 6 net hits (because his Limit is 6).

This also solves at least some of the problems with high and low end Forces. (Eventhough it still means you can never get more than 1 Service from a Force 1 Spirit)

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 13 2013, 02:11 PM

This of course, breaks down when it hits the rest of the rules.

6 net hits maximum for most weapons (+2 with smartlink)? Means that you might as well not dodge any more, 'cause there's no chance that your reaction is going to reduce nethits below the Limit.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 13 2013, 04:30 PM

One thing I was thinking when I was half asleep last night, and I don't know if it will work, and it doesn't really fit into the whole SR5 structure, but for spirits, why not make magic your limit, and the force of the spirit a negative dice pool modifier?

So you're a starting mage with 6 Magic and 6 Summoning. You want to summon a spirit.

At Force 1, you'd be rolling 11 dice (12-1) with a limit of 6. 3-4 hits on average.
At Force 3, you'd be rolling 9 dice (12-3) so 3 hits on average.
At Force 6, you'd be rolling 6 dice (12-6) for 2 hits.
At Force 9, you'd be rolling 3 dice for a single hit.

It seems like it sort of works. Of course, I don't think it works for anything but summoning, and sort of screws with the entire system, but its just an insomnia addled thought.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 13 2013, 07:46 PM

A couple of questions on Mentor Spirits.

Take the cat spirit for example. The Magician bonus is +2 dice for Illusion Spells, preparations and rituals. Is this bonus for casting and drain? Is it just for casting? Can I split the dice?

The other question is the drawback. "Unless you pass X test, you cannot make an attack that incapacitates your target."

How the heck am I supposed to know this? So can I cast a combat spell, and just hope that it doesn't incapacitate them? (like last night I cast clout, which pretty much knocked my target out). Can I not cast combat spells because it might incapacitate them? What exactly does incapacitate mean? Can I cast a direct Combat spell because I'm likely to only get 4 hits on the target, but not a indirect spell because I'm looking at perhaps 6 damage?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2013, 08:23 PM

Obviously, you do not cast incapacitating magic (Combat spells and some Illusion, Manipulation Spells) unless you pass the required test.
Cat likes to play with its prey, after all.

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 13 2013, 09:15 PM

You can't cast a spell that incapacitates the target without passing the test. So yes, that very much limits the options for combat spells to low force or not at all and so on. The +2 Dice reads just like Totems used to, so that's for Casting not Drain.

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 13 2013, 09:52 PM

I'm also going to interject the "But Reagents" that phlapjack77 was anticipating. Why? Well that's why they are part of the system, the more I play through things in my head the more they are the new Expendable Foci or Fetishes of editions past. These are also the things that have always, flavour wise, made up the stock carried in those magic stores that gets mentioned on other threads. They are the new tool for magic and having them makes you just That much more effective, especially in a pinch. It's also the meeting between Hermatic and Shamanic traditions that we are told will be expanded in the magic book. Don't forget Shaman used to summon as a complex action but the spirit was gone at sunrise/set, foci and fetishes (depending on rules) could help with this. Hermatic required an elemental circle and Force x 1,000nuyen in summoning materials to summon elemental and then could put that elemental on standby. What you see in SR5 is a bonding of those 2 systems.

Example A non maxed starting Mage : magic 6, summoning 4. Summoning a Force 1 spirit, well you're all but guaranteed to hit your limit of 1 and there is indeed a 33% chance that it won't work. That's with nothing but the skill and an act of will. Now you add some tools to the mix, say a Force 2 Summoning focus and a pouch full of Reagents. Now you're on 12 dice and for 80nuyen you can set that limit to 4, which is an average roll. Now you have a 33% chance of only loosing one service instead of nothing happening.

What the system Does encourage is the mid range of Spirits Force (without Reagents). Low force means low number of services. High Force spirits mean its unlikely you'll summon them at all as the Force creeps towards your dice pool and drawing you closer towards an even roll off for physical drain. Mid range Force however, well you stand a moderate chance with a good dice pool of hitting that limit with a good chance of only loosing a 3rd of those hits leaving you with 2-3 services. Obviously those numbers creep upwards as karma gets spent. Reagents are a tool that makes the differance.

The other way to look at it too is that a Low force spirit has real trouble existing away from the MetaPlanes to conduct those services and high force spirits will resist being drawn (note how most Free Spirits used to be High force). Mid force spirits however lack the strength to ignore the draw and are strong enough to act without dissipating.

Posted by: Ryu Aug 13 2013, 11:20 PM

You really want those dice, because the last tests one is allowed to take carry a high risk of glitches. IF you are going for max. rating despite the changed BC rules AND want to design the focus yourself.

What about magical groups providing a list of shared designs? Gets style into the rules part without providing even more power. Every member has the skull ring, but how strong?



(Read the Kingkiller Chronicle books by Patrick Rothfuss, they have cool artificing inbetween tons of other stories. Great times.)

Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 14 2013, 12:04 AM

Just read those - the main character is too Mary Sue-ish by a ton.

Posted by: Ryu Aug 14 2013, 12:09 AM

Guilty pleasure and all that... besides there being little signs of a happy ending.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 14 2013, 12:41 AM

Yup only shamans get advantages based on their stat choice hermetics can suck eggs.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 14 2013, 12:43 AM

I have no problem with a but reagents answer for some things but I'm sorry a weak force spirit should just be easier to get a crap ton of hits without reagents.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2013, 01:03 AM

Agreed, that is the strength of low force spirits. *sigh*

Posted by: RHat Aug 14 2013, 01:12 AM

Perhaps Magic+Summoning[Astral], if indeed there must be a limit?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2013, 01:21 AM

See, I think that Limits do nothing more than just piss me off. Such a horrible idea. *shakes head*

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 14 2013, 01:25 AM

I would have preferred if all magic had an astral limit. not a fan of the make your own limit on the fly mechanics when other parts of the game have set limits.

Posted by: RHat Aug 14 2013, 01:56 AM

That would require a lot of spell changes, but it's not a bad idea.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 14 2013, 05:02 AM

I guess I define incapacitate as slightly more damaging than y'all do

I still haven't made up my mind about reagents. I can't tell if they're a viable part of the system, or if they're a bandaid for a flawed system.

Posted by: CeeJay Aug 14 2013, 06:57 AM

And now have a look at binding a F1 spirit... That doesn't work in at least 44.4% of the time regardless of your own roll. And the "but reagents" argument isn't working here at all.
Whoever came up with the idea to use [Force] as both a limit on one side of an opposed test AND as dicepool on the other side clearly hasn't tested that mechanism enough. The math just doesn't deliver the expected results. Sorry, but that's a clear failure...

-CJ

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 14 2013, 06:01 PM

I kind of think they are both. Reagents when used to go for broke and make the big core are a viable part of the system, when used to summon a force 1 spirit because the math sucks is a patch.

I kind of find Qi Focuses in e same boat. On one side giving adepts a nuyen sink is a viable part of the system, but at the same time they kind of are just a patch for over costed powers.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 14 2013, 06:59 PM

wait, we're really calling qi focuses a nuyen sink for adepts? that sink will be full after 3-4 shadowruns even with the crappy payouts in SR5. that's not a sink, that's more like an already-damp sponge.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 14 2013, 07:16 PM

Fine damp sponge. :0

But I understand that was one of the intents though.

Still as you improve its another 3 grand every time you boost your magic score. Nothing like ware costs, but with the crap expected payouts it is something.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 14 2013, 07:58 PM

The limit of Force on summoning / binding tests really bugged me, so https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tZCiPgYynprGB9XNfE4-GA4i-bjMoaB-UGkWvbVEkrY my take on house rules to 'fix' conjuring. I always hated the swinginess of SR4's conjuring drain, which SR5 has kept, so these are much more predictable rules drain-wise. PEACH!

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 14 2013, 08:00 PM

Excuse me Sir and/or Madam, but your document does not indicate what value "Astral" is calculated from.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 14 2013, 08:06 PM

Astral is either your social or mental limit I can't remember if its set by tradition or whichever is greater.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 14 2013, 08:15 PM

Emphasis mine.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 16 2013, 07:11 AM

On another amusing note...

Indirect Spells that are AoE require a Spellcasting+Magic [Force] test with a threshold of 3 to get them to land where you want.

So unless you spend edge, or reagents, if you cast the spell at Force 1 or 2, you can't actually land the spell where you want it.

That seems a little..odd. (of course, as one person said when I realized this, "Why would you want to cast at Force 1 or 2," but that's a different discussion.

So far, the limit for Spirits, Artificing and AoE indirect combat spells seem to be off, and requiring you to use reagents, instead of reagents being an additional bonus.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 19 2013, 10:35 AM

Something that occurred to me today. Its not really a fully fleshed out thought, just an idly curious one.

Magic for the most part scales in the same manner as it did in the previous editions (Although you have to buy your new magic point in SR5, compared to just getting it in SR2 and 3). Your maximum 6+initiation. No real change there.

However, the skill for magic has changed. Its no longer 1-6ish, now its 1-12ish. As your skill and magic attribute start to get up there, presumably you're going to want to do bigger and better things. Higher Force spells to take advantage of the larger dicepools, spirits with more force, etc. And this seems to work.

But what about Drain? Is it going to be able to handle the higher forces that come with the advancing game? Consider this.

At chargen, a human magician will have (Atleast as far as I can tell) at best 11-13 dice to counter drain. (one drain attribute at 5, one at 6 or 6 and 7 if you have exceptional attribute). But that's really it. They're not going to get much higher than 13 dice even during gameplay (only one exception attribute is allowed). That's probably more than sufficient at chargen when you're casting low level spells, but will it be sufficient later on?

I'm not sure Drain scales at all, unless you invest in a improved attribute spell or two as well as sustaining foci, but that's going to be pretty heavy in the first place, since the Force of the Increase Attribute spell must meet or exceed the augmented value of the attribute (and the force of the foci must be equal to or greater than the force of the spell). So this seems pretty painful to do.

I also just noticed that most of the foci seem to specifically say that they're adding to the magic attribute or the skill, which means they won't help with drain (unlike say the Power Foci in 3rd Edition, which added to either drain or sorcery or conjuring).

So. Since Drain doesn't seem to scale without massive investment, is it going to be able to handle the high level game?

Posted by: Trigger Aug 19 2013, 11:46 AM

You are forgetting the Centering Metamagic. One extra die for soaking drain for every Initiation level that you have.

Posted by: HugeC Aug 19 2013, 02:47 PM

I seem to recall a rule (perhaps an optional one?) in SR4 that let you forgo dice on your Spellcasting test to add them to the drain resistance test, much like you could with spell pool in previous editions. I don't recall reading that for SR5, but maybe that would help?

Or, perhaps mages aren't supposed to cast spells with a Force near their Magic rating; perhaps it's just there to increase dice pools and give you more room for active foci. With just Centering, you can increase the Force by 1 per 3 initiations and take the same amount of drain.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2013, 05:20 PM

Previous Editions to SR4 allowed that. It was not allowed in SR4/SR4A.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 19 2013, 06:36 PM

briefly, pre-errata, spellcasting and summoning focuses could be used for drain resistance. then they changed it, and made it basically useless to ever buy anything other than a power focus. that might be what he's remembering.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 19 2013, 06:42 PM

Ah, so I am. Well, that's atleast one way to improve drain as you get higher up in the magic realms.

Are there any others?

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2013, 07:15 PM

They could be used, yes, but the change was made because how they could be used was confusing. You got the bonus dice to split between the two rolls, not the bonus dice to both.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 19 2013, 10:01 PM

err... no.

here are the new descriptions of those focuses:

"Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and
Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell
more effectively as long as it is of the category appropriate to the focus."

"Summoning foci add their Force in dice to any attempt to
summon the appropriate type of spirit. These dice may be used for the
Summoning Test, as long as the type of spirit is appropriate to the focus."

"Binding foci add their Force to the magician’s Binding + Magic
dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit. A binding focus
can also add its dice when the magician is re-binding a spirit."

absolutely no indication whatsoever that they can be used for drain resistance test. not even the slightest hint of it.

here are the old descriptions:

"Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. Th ese dice may
be used to cast a spell more eff ectively or withheld to help the
magician with Drain."

"Summoning foci add their Force in dice to any attempt
to summon the appropriate type of spirit. Th ese dice may be
used for the Summoning Test, or they may be withheld to
help resist Drain."

"Binding foci add their Force to the magician’s Magic +
Binding dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit,
or the extra dice may be withheld to help resist Drain. A binding
focus can also add its dice when the magician is re-binding
a spirit."

as you can see, it is quite clearly an *or* situation in these older versions, and in fact they quite clearly state that those bonus dice had to be withheld if you wanted to use them for drain resistance. very clearly not usable for both. the wording never remotely implied you could use it for both, and the new wording doesn't even acknowledge that there could ever be a possibility of using the bonus dice for drain resistance under any circumstances.

it was changed specifically to make it so that you could not use them to resist drain.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2013, 10:06 PM

Eventually paving the way for Centering Foci, which CAN be used to resist drain.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 19 2013, 10:07 PM

Or more Blood magic and let some other sap pay the Drain.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2013, 10:09 PM

Fantastic, helping me prove my point. You are correct sir, the current descriptions do not say that you can. Hence the past tense verb I used, emphasized by "changed made."



I think I said that. Or at the very least implied it through heavy use of quote tags and phraseology.



I never doubted your interpretation, I said that some people were getting confused. I agree that it's pretty strait forward, but there was a discussion some time ago about this back when the change was made with SR4A.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 19 2013, 10:36 PM

you said: "They could be used, yes, but the change was made because how they could be used was confusing. You got the bonus dice to split between the two rolls, not the bonus dice to both."

in a discussion regarding the use of focuses to resist drain, i'm not sure what you would expect that to mean other than stating that they intended that you could use a spellcasting/summoning/binding focus to resist drain, but that people were getting confused into thinking they could use the focus for both, and as a result they changed it to make it clear that you couldn't use the bonus dice for both tests.

is that not what you were saying?

because my answer to that is "no, that very clearly isn't why they were changed, otherwise the changed versions would still let you use the bonus dice for drain". given that the newest versions were made to not allow using them to reduce drain ever under any circumstances, it would seem that the reason they changed them is that they never intended them to be used for drain resistance in the first place, and that it had nothing to do with people getting confused about using them to add to both dicepools.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2013, 11:06 PM

To be fair, it was a Copy/Paste from 3rd Edition (copied directly over, if I remember correctly), which is how it worked back then.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2013, 11:15 PM

Could, aux v.
"Used to indicate ability or permission in the past."

Posted by: Jaid Aug 20 2013, 05:12 AM

i'm not debating the former ability to use them that way. i'm pointing out that your stated reasons for them changing it are very obviously wrong. it wasn't that people were getting confused about using it for both the skill test and the drain resistance test... it was that they never ever ever intended for it to be an option in 4th edition to use it on drain resistance tests.

your claimed reason for the change is what is wildly inaccurate.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 20 2013, 12:11 PM

And yet I know that it was brought up on these very forums before.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2013, 02:10 PM

Only because it was a direct Copy/Paste from 3rd Edition, and it was an expected useage due to the wording. That was clarified, and then published in Errata. It was never becasue people got confused about HOW it worked. It was commonly a question on IF it worked.