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Posted by: Tashiro Aug 9 2013, 02:55 PM

http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/08/09/going-macro-life-without-nanotech/

I'm of mixed feelings about this. I don't mind the increased cost for cyberware / bioware and such, that's fine. I'm more concerned about characters from 4E going into 5E who used nanohives or had genetic engineering. :\ I'm waiting now for the Augmentation 5E book, to see if this kind of stuff will still exist.

Posted by: Blade Aug 9 2013, 03:22 PM

This is ridiculous, and a great illustration of a problem with the way the shadowrun line is handled.

This is ridiculous because nanotech has been working fine in the SR world for a long time. Ok, there might be something new that causes problems with nanotech, like a virus or something. But when Jorgumandr hit the Matrix in 2065, did all the Matrix corporation close down? Did everyone said "ok, we're closing down the Matrix, we won't be using it anymore"? No, because that's not what people do. When there's a rotten apple you don't stop eating apples forever. Here, it'll probably take long enough for the prices of the 'ware in the core book to stay correct for the whole duration of the 5th edition.

A great illustration of a problem with the way the shadowrun line is handled because:
- It's a decision made to move shadowrun to something closer to what it was before. This is something that you can't do forever. You can't advance the timeline and reverse eveything else.
- It's a shitty fluff explanation for a questionable change of rules and fluff. It's no different from the stupid wireless bonuses that are bad things made to allow an (arguably) good thing.

If they wanted Shadowrun to go back to the 50s, they'd have been better off by making the 5th edition take place there, not in a 2075 where everything suddenly starts looking like the 50s all over again.

Posted by: Blastula Aug 9 2013, 03:50 PM

Honestly, it's like pruning away branches on a tree. Some stuff gets cut off and removed to make way for new growth. Whatever the 5e Augmentation book looks like, it will probably bring back nanotech and gentech in one form or another. Neither of those played a big role with the players at my table, but I can see how not having something people are used to using suddenly become unavailable could be upsetting.

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 9 2013, 03:54 PM

Should've done like what was done to transition between SR3 & SR4. Don't make it 2075, make it 2080 and go on from there.

And as someone else around here mentioned, SR5 is more throwback to the older SR3 style to entice more of those older players. Not sure how true it is, but from one gaming group I know of it certainly seems to be true.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 9 2013, 03:56 PM

*Performs a happy dance*

Also, http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=36533&view=findpost&p=1133586

Posted by: Tashiro Aug 9 2013, 06:17 PM

You, then, are a visionary.
I don't see this as a long-term shutdown (oh gods, I hope not), but more of a short-term setback. The way nanites are produced and used at this time are being closed down and studied while the 'event' is happening, and perhaps a method for correcting this situation will come out in the future - around the time the Augmentation book comes out.

I want to see nanites, genetech, and other such things return to Shadowrun, it pushed the envelope into transhumanism, and that's something I really want to see in the Shadowrun universe -- effectively 'the body is hackable'. Mind you, that's completely different than 'damn it, someone hacked my body', which seems to be what's causing this panic.

Posted by: Voran Aug 9 2013, 08:07 PM

If cool with "Nanotech no longer reliable to have in internal Hives and used as weapons/attack vectors" but "Still ok for out of combat use/infrastructure/whatever".

Like Commlinks to Cyberdecks now, or when they said "Um, yeah you remember that total immunization package that we let you have in Shadowtech (or whatever), yeah that doesn't work anymore"

Posted by: apple Aug 9 2013, 09:25 PM

Especially considering the fact that the 2050 Shadowtech stated that Cyberimplantation works with ... nanoware.

So what exactly ware these "old tried and true" cybernetics for fallback? Oh yeah, cyberware with ... nanoware?



Yeah ...

SYL

Posted by: RHat Aug 9 2013, 09:50 PM

After Jorgumandr, they basically had to rebuild from the ground up. At this point, we're still in the midst of whatever the hell this is, and nobody knows what's going on. It's not that they're choosing to stop using nanotech, it's that they're no longer ABLE to use nanotech for whatever reason - and at least until they know what's going on, there's not much they can do about that. Largely, this all seems to be in consequence to what's shaping up to be a pretty interesting plotline.

Posted by: Trillinon Aug 10 2013, 01:55 AM

This strikes me as a plan to reign in nanotech and genetic manipulation to a level that remains familiar to us. This is necessary, because the natural result of these technologies is a form of humanity that we, as players, won't be able to really understand.

A little transhumanism is great. But deep transhumanism is a very different beast.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 02:00 AM

Read further than just the buzzword: "Nanites" in Shadowtech are simply bacteria which incorporate metals and then settle on patterns formed with special nutrients. In other words, stuff which might actually work instead of magical tiny spider bots, and which most likely will remain unaffected by the disease which befalls these bots.

Posted by: Tias Aug 10 2013, 08:24 AM

Still, it ought to remain. Not only did it offer interesting augs both fluffy and practical for the players, but out of control genetweaks and transgenic creatures made for great GM tools.

Posted by: RHat Aug 10 2013, 08:26 AM

Well, I think it might be wise to withhold judgement on that score until this plotline has actually been carried through.

Posted by: Tias Aug 10 2013, 08:37 AM

I'd never. The game is for the players, if the fluff ticks us off, we should find our own depth. Until I get to work on SR (a dwarf can dream!), all power to 'em.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Aug 10 2013, 10:06 AM

Uhhh...

By my count, 30-40% of the nanoware systems are exclusively soft nanotech and a further 30-40% are available in your choice of hard and soft. If soft nano were safe, the text would describe a move to the safer systems. The text makes no distinctions between soft and hard nano, so we should assume that soft nano is also affected.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 01:00 PM

Painting a pattern with a nutrient and then setting bacteria on is is not really "programming". In Fact, M&M even went out to establish why the "old" nanites were actually no nanites and only the new nanobots deserved that name:
In the early stages of the cybernetics industry, genetically engineered bacteria, misleadingly nicknamed "nanites," laid the neural bridges during cybersystem implantation. This "oldworld" nanite was responsible for the first implants, and its imprecision limited cyberware to a comparatively basic level and caused significant Essence loss even for very small implanted devices. The advent of true nanites rendered such clumsy tools unnecessary. True nanites are more precise and versatile, allowing larger devices, including limbs, to be implanted without such a loss of Essence that the body would shut down.
(M&M, page 84)


@Tias: It explicitly says that geneware is still around, just more expensive due to no longer having nanite support. I guess they just went back to retroviral carriers

Posted by: lokii Aug 10 2013, 01:34 PM

@Sengir: But Man & Machine also discusses how essential robotic nanites / hard nanites have become for cyberware, both with installation/cybersurgery and maintenance. So the original statement that cyberware relies on nanotechnology would be correct. Even if there are alternatives to make cyberware work, the field should be massively impacted by this. Switching highly developed products to a completely different technology would prove disruptive. And if we ignore the speculative science behind this for a moment, Heath Robinson's argument is convincing, if soft nanites are not susceptible to this "disease", why isn't half of nanotech still working? Soft nanites complement bioware. So both cyber- and bioware should be in trouble. "older, tried-and-true techniques" essentially means far behind sota.

BTW: Those who can read German, we have the same discussion running in Pegasus' forum, from here: http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/8561-shadowrun-fünfte-edition/page-66#entry313018

Posted by: lokii Aug 10 2013, 01:38 PM

-- don't ask --

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 04:07 PM

Assuming that you actually care about that particular plotline. Personally, not really a big fan of it currently. *shrug*
Maybe it will grow on me.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 04:09 PM

Which is obviously why the Bioware and Cyberware are so much more expensive in SR5. They have had to implement new protocols for implantation and maintenance. *sigh*

Posted by: lokii Aug 10 2013, 05:00 PM

Well, you are missing the point. This is not about price or availability, but about being able to provide equivalent function at all. If a component technology that has been relied upon for decades and was co-developed along with your product suddenly is completely unavailable, you don't just switch over to an older technique without loss of quality or function. Fluff from both Man & Machine ("Without nanotechnology, all but the most basic cyberware would be so large and bulky that it would defeat its purpose") and Augmentation ("Nanotechnology is an absolute necessity for all implant surgery") stresses how important nanotech is to the field of cybertechnology. Going by that cyber- and probably bioware should not only be pricier and less available but maybe also more dangerous to implant, less useful and in some cases not even usable at all.

And we are not even speaking about all the people who run around with systems that rely on nanotech. "nanotech [..] is integral to the functioning of many others including cybereye accessories, filtration systems, chemical analysis tools, and even cyberlimb sensory feedback systems" aug.103

EDIT: And I grant you that some of that nanotech could be materials engineering rather than nanoscopic machinery. Doesn't change the overall problem, especially with cybersurgery.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 05:15 PM

No really, I am not. I agree that the elimination of Nanotech is stupid and ill thought out. I agree that the return to an older tech base is completely ludicrous. It is just another example of not thinking through all the ramifications of a change to the game world. This is just one of the reasons that I dislike 5th Edition. While there may have been some great ideas, they were not thought out in regards to the world setting and the unintended ripple effect impact that such changes would have.

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 10 2013, 05:23 PM

I feel about this the same way I feel about the reintroduction of decking. Which is to say, I think it is a bad game design decision.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 05:28 PM

Agreed. I like the new matrix paradigm (mostly), but it would have worked with Comlinks just fine. No need to reintroduce Decks, just pop in a few new hardware modules and go. The price points for Decks are just ludicrous. *sigh*

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 10 2013, 05:30 PM

On that note, if I ever were to transition a favored technomancer character to the SR5 rules (still not likely to happen) I'd treat him as a decker as well. Funny thing there, means that he'll get a Fairlight Excalibur, a ¥823,250 cyberdeck, for free. Sad thing is that deck is still better than his living persona.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 05:41 PM

The "early stages of the cybernetics industry" M&M talks about (set sometime in the early 2060s) actually is Shadowtech (2053), which described exactly this procedure. Cybertechnology (2057) made no reference to any drastic changes in nanotechnology, so seemingly all the advanced cyberware (really, what new cyberware have we gotten since then?) did work with the metal-fed bacteria, too.

Only in M&M did nanotech turn into Eric Drexler's nanorobots capable of precision manufacturing in a moshpit where all participants are covered in superglue; with a little retconn that it had been that way since ages without anybody mentioning it. But since it offers no dates it would be easy to re-retconn this to mean that the big change only happened between Cybertechnology and Man & Machine, which would make total sense, because such a big change would certainly have not gone unnoted in the previous book.


First of all, we don't actually know of soft nanites indeed went the way of the Dodo. Fluff only talks about all kinds of nano-powered molecular assembly (from DNI over food to fighter jets) going haywire, that has so far remained the realm of nanobots, i.e. hard nanites.
However, as Augmentation put it "[f]or the most part, soft and hard nanites are interchangeable in game terms" (p. 106). They are not simple bacteria with a few genetweaks, but more aking to preprogrammed bio-robots. So whatever malware screws around with nanite programming, it certainly could also affect soft nanites.

Now personally I don't see soft nanites as that much of a problem, since most of the 100 % certified bullshit has so far been attributed to hard nanites. But as far as potential fluff explanations go, if there is some malware affecting hard nanites, it certainly can also affect soft nanite breeding systems...

Posted by: hermit Aug 10 2013, 06:01 PM

They will not because they are not programmable in the sense that they can be affected by a commlink or any Shadowrun computer technology. They certainly are not susceptible to WiFi. That might make them immune. These "nanites" cells act like regular single-cell organisms - they need a track of nutrients to follor and grow on, you have to coerce them, you cannot simply have them act on your beck and call and program them to do whatever you want. Shadowtech's nanotechnology actually sounds realistically tedious, whereas Augmentation's is pretty much all magical science.

Also, back in Shadowtech, Nanotech was a rather limited technology, and expensive, and experimental and everything. The great Nanotech boom of SR4 and late SR3 came about due to the end of Renraku:Arcology Shutdown and Brainscan. Essentially, the current generation of Nanotech has been developed by Deus (a hostile, alien AI), and was then used by corps who pilfered blueprints of them or reverse-engineered Deus' products and Experiments for profit, without any good idea how it actually works, or real interest in this because hey, business, cheap bucks, shareholder value and the Weyland-Yutani principles of business. No, I cannot see why any of this can go wrong at all.

SR4's Nanotech is a lot more advanced. It's near Eclipse Phase levels (actually, Eclipse Phase developed out of a "Shadowrun 2100" thought experiment, for all I know). And there's an older generation of - arguably - much less easy to handle nanotechnology available too, if dated, clumky, and not really easy to apply. So I think that's the article's angle.

Augmentation's nanotech relates to Shadowtech's Nanotech like a Tesla Model S relates to a Ford Model T. Much as this seems to be a reverse-engineered explanation of why cyberware sucks so much in SR5, this does make a lot more sense than other recent CGL plots, in in-game terms.


I suppose they make up for that with Cloud Computing (yay magical science!). This is why cyberware sucks so much without wireless.

Posted by: lokii Aug 10 2013, 06:20 PM

Oh, then I misread the sigh.

I agree on the first part, but if I'm not mistaken Cybertechnology dispensed with the science background altogether. So I wouldn't argue based on exposition not being in the book.

Well, at least the importance for cybertech is reaffirmed in Augmentation, p. 103 the paragraph starting with "Nanotechnology is the silent wonder of the cybernetics and biotech industries". Silent, you see.

Agreed. But as I said the argument that some nanotech should be avaible if not, convinces me. What they are saying instead: "I think we all know by now that nanoware is completely untrustworthy. Remove it or neutralize it as soon as possible, at least until somebody figures out what in the name of the spirits is going on." Okay, maybe you could say it's just overreaction.

Actually, I do see the effort.

Ah, they compute the results of the evil disease out of your cyberware. Things start to make sense.

Posted by: Tashiro Aug 10 2013, 06:47 PM

I've noticed a few people seem to dislike any metaplot which changes or advances the setting. I'm somewhat curious - what kind of game-changer metaplot would you prefer?

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 10 2013, 07:08 PM

-- Shadowtechnology was written (partly) by an actual doctor, Cybertechnology was written by one of the staff writers. But Shadowtechnology is still arguably one of the most influential books in the entire game line.

-- Shadowrun jumped from fairly simple nanotechnology (and nanotech isn't synonymous with nanobots: i.e. nanofabrication using self-assembly, tailored bacteria, lithography etc.) and, as has been noted, jumped directly to Drexlerian superscience assemblers (with a small nod that this was made possible by reverse-engineering Deus' toys). It's a Machina ex Deus In GURPS terms, Shadowrun jumped from TL9 to TL11 between books.

-- I have no idea if the final Sybil thing will make a lick of sense (anything involve "e-ghosts" and the like gets my BS meter rising, though), but nanotech was getting pretty out of control in the game, and becoming increasingly difficult to explain away in terms of how this wasn't upsetting the status quo.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 07:09 PM

It has nothing to do with advancing the setting, at least for me. It has everything to do with the obvious fact that they completely miss the ramifications of their sweeping changes with no thought to the ripple of consequences. They do what sounds cool, and when they are confronted with all the stuff that now makes absolutely no sense because cool overrode consequence they have to scramble to make sense of it all (which often never actually happens, because it is so hard to repair the unintended consequences of their changes). It is quite frustrating, honestly.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 07:12 PM

See, I never saw Nanotech as "getting out of control" or out of hand. It had some interesting possibilities, but they were far from becoming mainstream to everyone (hell, even most shadowrunners did not benefit all that greatly, as far as I was concerned). It was just to damned expensive for the really cool stuff.

Posted by: Mikado Aug 10 2013, 07:47 PM

The only piece of Nanoware I felt was "out of control" or "game breaking" was the smart staff from War!... That thing was stupidly over the top being able to change shapes drastically over the course of a complex action. Most everything else took minutes to make even minor changes like fingerprint patterns. That one piece of gear changed everything…

Posted by: apple Aug 10 2013, 07:52 PM

You describe the WAR!-Nanoware, not the Augmentation-Nanoware.

SYL

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 07:54 PM

Ahh, yes, the Victorinox Smart Staff. Never used them myself. I preferred the Victorinox Sword, if I wanted something like that (Only ever had a single character who ever used one). However, that is a single piece of equipment, and I cannot see it changing everything. Niche and Intersting, to be sure, but not really a game changer.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 07:57 PM

It's not conclusive evidence, but at any rate it is compatible with both the hypothesis that MBW, Cybermancy, and all the other advanced cybertech was only made possible by nanobots, and with the hypothesis that nanobots only started being used for cyber implantation after 2057 (i.e. Cybertechnology).
So to the best of my knowledge, saying that implantation without nanobots used to be done is at least fully compatible with existing fluff, if not already preestablished.


@hermit:

Speaking of which, all nanotech fans hopefully realize what fate would have awaited nanobots if they had made it into 5th...make them hackable or they become incompatible with wearing leather shoes

Posted by: Mikado Aug 10 2013, 08:09 PM

If that item could change so drastically and so quickly why did the False Front bioware or the Jigsaw Skull (I forget what it was called but I believe it was in Spy Games) take so long, cost so much essence or in the case of the bioware have limited durations for something that should have been so easy.

It did change everything... At least for me... I looked at it and wondered why they would boost Nano so much and never think of the other items that would have benefitted more from it. Our GM allowed one in the game and then house ruled it to take minutes instead of seconds for any others people wanted and finding an in game way of removing the one already in play.

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 10 2013, 08:10 PM

-- Shadowrun nanobots are invisible little magical machines brought into existence by stealing tech from Deus (Man & Machine). The stuff from War! is not really any dumber than ultrafast reconfigurable diamondoid skin sheaths, or nanites that can rewrite your retinas on-the-fly.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 08:12 PM

Just because you can apply Smart plastics to something simple like a weapon, it does not mean that it is equally applicable to Cyberware. I see what you are saying, I just do not agree with it. The Victorinox Smart weapons were gimmicks. How many cool gimmicks have come and gone over the years where the logical next step application would have been revolutionary? I would be willing to bet more than a few.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 08:19 PM

OK, so let us take a look at a piece of Agumentation nanoware:
Voice Mimic, costs R*3000 ¥ and Availability is a flat 16F. Its cyber equivalent (Voice Modulator + Secondary Pattern) costs R*5000 ¥ and Availability (R*3)F
Or how about the Retinal Adjusters nanoware, which has the same Availability as its cyber equivalent (Retinal Duplication) but costs a third of it?

OK, nanoware is actually cheaper than cyber despite supposedly being cutting edge, but at least it cannot do completely outrageous stuff, right? Well, maybe take a look at Demolishers and NanoSpy...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 08:25 PM

And how many characters ever take EITHER of those systems, regardless of being Nanoware or Cyberware? I have not ever seen either system in actual play, and only ever seen the Retinal Duplication on a Theoretical Build, that never actually saw play. I am sure that tables have characters with these pieces of 'ware, from time to time, but I just cannot see either of them being problematic. I might consider switching Costs/Availability between them, but they are not game breaking.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 08:28 PM

It's not about game balance, it's about the fact that supposedly cutting-edge tech is easier to have than cyberware which has been around since 1st edition.

PS: Although from a gamist POV, I'd add that it sucks that counter-biometric ware is so heinously illegal and expensive...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 08:40 PM

Yeah, I get that. I would change the prices and availability, reducing Cyberware, and increasing Nanoware. But that is just me.
I also agree with that. It should not be so excessively expensive, though I do think that is should remain HIGLY illegal.

Posted by: apple Aug 10 2013, 08:45 PM

Before we do that please review the entire comment and the quote. I never talked about actual game values or if price x is fair while price y is not.

SYL

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 10 2013, 09:14 PM

Oh, gods, Old Man Jones was pretty heavily loaded up with nanoware...

I wonder if he would have been aware enough of the changes to activate his blue goo kill switch?

Especially if I'm right and the new Matrix is really Deus.


-k

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 09:29 PM

Of course it should be illegal, this is a dystopian panopticon society after all. But if changing your biometrics via cyber is basically unattainable (if you want to fool more than the most basic scanner) and a complete fake ID goes for R*1000 ¥, there is clearly something amiss.

(Disclosure, the "cyber impersonator" is character concept I have always wanted to play. So I'm probably slightly biased )

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 09:44 PM

Agreed... I had an idea for such a character myself, it was just never really feasible to me. Sadly...

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2013, 10:17 PM

...therefore I also provided two items where the problem is not just the price/Avail. Tiny robots constructing an assembly of camera, microphone, and transponder, appearing "to be no more than a very faint discoloration of the material it's been applied to"? My GloMoss just turned into a floodlight from the poorly disguised magic...

@TJ: I feel your pain

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2013, 10:37 PM

Entertainingly, I never really used that Nanotech, either, because an RFID Sensor Tag with Microcamera (Trideo, of course) was so much more efficient, and far cheaper. Lets see... 500 Nuyen for 20 Sensor Tag (that is 25 Nuyen each, and DR3), and a Microcamera (Trideo functionality, of course, for 100 Nuyen). So, 125 Nuyen per Sensor Tag (minimum -6 to be spotted, threshold 2+) for a total of 2,500 Nuyen. Hmmmmm.... 2,500 Nuyen, for an ubiquitous sensor option that is very difficult to discover, or 7,000 Nuyen for a restricted nanoware piece of crap (which is seen with a Threshold (3) perception test, no penalties, because it covers a square foot of space, by the way). And since I can get 56 such sensor tags for the price of a single Nanospy I know what I am going with. Not all nanoware is good at what it does, after all, and there are often more economical/practical means to do the exact same thing for far cheaper. *shrug*

Indeed... Sometimes they just do not work out.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 10 2013, 11:51 PM

Yes, this.

Moreover, the justifications are ridiculous. "The nanites messed with your genecode, but no way it could be detected in all these years - or checked right after the procedure, really".
Besides, minding that the nanites have been used for everything for ages, they're even found in common items like disguise kits, I fail to see any reason for certain areas to be affected more than the rest, IC.

Also, that bit on "a lot of small Matrix-order shops are also shutting down all over the globe"? Utterly ridiculous. Have you seen the prices of nanofaxes in Augmentation? These are not 3D printers made out of wires and scraps! Anyone using a nanofax to print T-shirts is going out of business long before any nanotech infection.


I find myself agreeing with lokii in this thread. Otherwise:

Yeah, and the new edition is not changing this. I find this to be badly thought-through, really.

Sensor RFIDs are capable of basically the same trick, so it's not a game changer of any kind.

Posted by: lokii Aug 11 2013, 12:10 AM

And that I wouldn't dispute.

Still, now that nanotech is used widely for cyberware and is described even as essential, when the technology vanishes overnight, the description of the impact (so far) is too flippant for my taste. It assumes that all you need to do is go back to the old method and under some altered pricing structure everything works as before. But unless the old technology has been developed in parallel the necessity to redesign and really reinvent back to the state of nanite assisted cybertechnology is a real crisis (and that's assuming that the non-nanotech solution is capable of the same kind of performance). You can no longer rely on nanotech retooling, standard procedures of cybersurgery don't work. You have an augmented population that needs maintenance among them probably a whole bunch of augmented cybersurgeons. Certainly the costs for higher cyberware quality grades should go up. And on top of all that some idiot in marketing tasks you with implementing cloud computing features because that supposedly boosts sales.

I don't know if nanotech needed to be reined in. Rebalancing is one thing, taking certain applications off the table is another, but scrapping the whole field? I mean I'm sure nanotech will be back. If not already in the next *ware book then down the line. But maybe nanite use for cybertech should have been exempted from this problem. After all it's primarily the new nanotech that came from Deus. Turns out you shouldn't use design patterns coming from a cruel machine god, surprise! Would have worked better with the fluff.

Posted by: Voran Aug 11 2013, 08:32 AM

Personally, I would have preferred another version of handwavium where nanostuff became so easy to counter or otherwise mess with that it wasn't going to be useful outside extremely controlled conditions. It wasn't suddenly less reliable as process, just not something you'd want to use out in public because THEN it was too easy to negate.

This way your cyberdoc can still use nanotech to patch you up or slap new things in, but you don't run into it outside anymore.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 11 2013, 02:20 PM

OK, let us have a look at the statement from M&M you so desperately cling to:
Nanotechnology is an absolute necessity for all cybernetic surgery, especially for the installation of bone lacing, balance augmentors, retinal duplication, orthoskin and dermal sheathing. Nanotech connects all cyberware to the neural pathways that go to the brain. In addition, nanites are directly integrated into many cyberware devices, including cybereye accessories, filtration systems and chemical immunity and chemical analysis tools.
Piece by piece:

• Bone Lacing: 1st edition
• Balance Augmentor: Actually new in M&M
• Retinal Duplication: 1st Edition
• Orthoskin: Shadowtech
• Dermal Sheath: CT
• Neural Interconnects: 1st Edition
• Cybereye Accessoires: 1st Edition
• Filtration Systems & Analyzers: ST

So out of all the items for which nanobots (seemingly considered synonymous with nanotech in general by the author) are described as even more essential than usual, only ONE is actually new since the invention of these magical buggers...
Bottom line is what I already said: Even for (then as now) hyper-advanced stuff like Cybermancy and MBW, fluff does implicate nanobots as necessary. We might lose the Balance Augmenter though, OH NOES!
(Edit: Balance Augmenter is in SR5, take the noose off)


@Fatum (and TJ):

The difference is that sensor RFIDs are not tiny robots which violate logic by their very existence and are able to manufacture microelectronics outside cleanrooms on top of that.

Posted by: lokii Aug 11 2013, 04:55 PM

Desperate? Let's slow down here.

I think, we are arguing different things. I'm not actually discussing the discrepancies between Shadowtech and Man & Machine. But I guess I should. Nanotech was retconned to be more important in the field of cybertechnology than was described before Man & Machine. While Man & Machine seems to point at Shadowtech especially with the comment about misnamed nanites, I believe they mean an earlier era (and I wasn't clear enough about this before). For example they also say "True nanites are more precise and versatile, allowing larger devices, including limbs, to be implanted without such a loss of Essence that the body would shut down." There are cyberlimbs already in first edition, so nanotech must have been in use back then too. So the Shadowtech information has been retconned, at best can be explained as outdated. How does that work with Leonora Bartoli? I have no idea.

You seem to dislike this change and probably didn't arrive at the same conclusion that nanotech applications in cybertechnology predate Shadowtech. Well, I take the retcon at face value, especially as a slighty modified description made it into Augmentation and affirmed the new version. So cybersurgery for two decades or more uses nanotechnology. That's the starting point for my argument.

Now a different question is whether the situation is really so bad if you go back to the old method. I don't think the description of the (supposed) science behind nano- and cybertechnology enables us to make that call. So indeed I'm taking my judgement from "would not exist without", "staple of surgical installation and implantation procedures", "absolute necessity" in Man & Machine and Augmentation in a totally undesperate way I hope.

So, maybe I'm not giving Catalyst enough credit and this is basically a ret-retcon.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2013, 05:15 PM

Sengir, do you know what the words "absolute necessity" mean?

Also, you and me can produce microelectronics outside of clean rooms, without even being able to manipulate molecules directly as the nanobots do (ymmv as to how "micro" those resulting "microelectronics" are, though).

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 11 2013, 06:50 PM

If the magical hard nanites get reigned in I'm all for this. Actually nanotechnology getting nuked wouldn't make any sense; that would be equivalent to saying "The chemistry skill got infected with a virus."

Posted by: Voran Aug 11 2013, 06:57 PM

SHUT.DOWN.EVERYTHING.


/apologizes

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2013, 07:09 PM

Nano-produced AKs melted, remember?

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 11 2013, 07:28 PM

But that's what they did. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgeOnHim.

Posted by: lokii Aug 11 2013, 08:12 PM

If you think of materials science, I don't believe that is meant by nanotechnology, just submicroscopic machinery or its bioengineered equivalents, so hard and soft nanites.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 11 2013, 08:56 PM

Yeah, I didn't really get that point. But I still disagree with it, because the reference to the "old nanites" is just too parallel to the text in ST to make me believe in a coincidence.

The emphasis placed on how new and revolutionary theses nanites are also makes it seem unlikely that they have been around since forever. If nanotechnology "entered a period of exponential growth" after Deus, before Deus the tech level obviously was exponentially lower



Do you know what the words "not as necessary as claimed at all" mean?

And the kind of circuit we are talking about here (camera, microphone, transmitter, thin enough to be nearly fully transparent) is certainly not something you'd etch with OHP film at home...


RE the discussion on terminology: When Drexler invaded Shadowrun, the distinction between "nanotechnology" and fictional "nanobots" got the same treatment as all other science. And judging by the Jackpoint post, that did not change

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 11 2013, 09:01 PM

Nanobots simply needed to go. They're the Star Trek transporter of the game -- they seem cool up until you consider the actual uses you can put them toward.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 11 2013, 09:23 PM

Wow, I go away for three days with no internet and come back to a topsy turvy world.

Guess I am not too surprised by this, the potential for nanotech was simply huge and largely untapped. Cyberpunk 202X had some fun concepts for this.

Still it looks like they might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but we will see how the revised versions come along.

Posted by: lokii Aug 11 2013, 10:38 PM

Well, the whole chapter starts out with "Nanotechnology has been around in various guises since the inception of the cyberterminal and the end of the Euro-Wars." (p. 80) And it seems that augmentation / medicine was the one field were nanotech had been widely used: "the main focus of nanotechnology before Deus was in the medical field." (p. 84) Once more, I also think that the description of the old method matches Shadowtech and would thus tie that method to the early 2050s. Except you have all the emphasis on the importance of "true nanites" for cyberware in Man & Machine. I mentioned the part about cyberlimbs and to give another example of something that indicates the change to me: "This old-world nanite was responsible for the first implants" (p. 84) doesn't seem to fit the early 2050s where a lot of standardised implants were already available. All this makes me think they retconned it and just wanted to also integrate the old explanation. So in that sense Shadowtech even confirms you need nanotechnology for wiring cybernetic interface and nervous system.

But there is certainly enough room for speculation.

Or the nanobots could stay and their abilities could be restricted instead.

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 12 2013, 02:52 AM

Want to hear about a character who got seriously hosed in 5th?

Stay-at-home asthmatic hacker with copious amount of neural nanoware.

Primary mode of hacking? Non-viable.
Tens of thousands invested in cutting edge link? Wasted.
Changing to new on-site decking? Asthma.
Nanotech? Probably either dead or brain-damaged.

Yay, new edition!

Posted by: RHat Aug 12 2013, 07:57 AM

... Dead or brain-damaged would be a GIFT. There's a reason why one of the going theories entails Inhabitation Sprites.

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 12 2013, 06:38 PM

-- I'm going to chalk that up to a misunderstanding of what nanotech is. Or they melted from some other mechanism.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 12 2013, 07:04 PM

We desperately needed that as an archetype?


I'm going to chalk that up to CGL.

Posted by: Mikado Aug 12 2013, 07:50 PM

I brought up the false Front system for a reason. It went with the nanoware retinal, fingerprint and voice print duplication on a technomance build I played for a few years. Which is why I said the Smart Staff was broken when you see a pencil box convert to a staff/sword in less than a second but the other stuff takes minutes (even the jigsaw skull) it makes you question the though put into any book...


Best character I ever had by the way... Sided with the Neo-A's when they set off the DOOM chemical in NY... Killed 60,000 people and got away with it... Man that pissed off the rest of the players. (Only that they lost not at me, they thought it fit well with the character since he was written up as a middle eastern terrorist.)

Posted by: Fatum Aug 12 2013, 08:21 PM

>War!

>makes you question the though put into the book...

Come on now, we've discussed this enough times.

Posted by: Cheops Aug 12 2013, 09:37 PM

Didn't Augmentation also take the non-Runner fields of nanotechnology further? I seem to remember snippets about S-K growing their new Seattle HQ out of wood-producing nanites and mention of cities built of living coral that used nanites in their construction and maintenance. It wasn't my cup of tea for a dystopic society but it did advance the setting into a cool, post-needs direction that made sense.

I thought medkits also used nanotech.

Posted by: Nath Aug 12 2013, 10:36 PM

Man & Machine was already mentioning corporate investment in nanotechnology beyond body augmentations, in industry and aerospace.

Actually, if it was to make sense, the neutralization of nanotechnology should also result in the cancellation of the space elevator project. In this regard, that would be another nail in the coffin of SR technological evolution (and now I said it aloud...).

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 12 2013, 10:42 PM

I do not think it would stop it entirely, but it would certainly slow it down as it would have to proceed differently using more manageable tech. Or at least we hope not.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2013, 11:02 PM

On the stuff that is supposed to just be nanite-MADE, and afterwards have no actual active nanites in their structure, but still somehow got affected by this Sybil thing...

We know that they are SUPPOSED to not have active nanites, but who is to say they don't have them anyway? Snuck into the manufacturing process by whatever is hijacking all the nanotech?




-k

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2013, 12:18 AM

Nanites degrade quickly when exposed to the elements. Even if you pack a rifle full of active nanites, in a couple of years it will be inert unless there's also a nanohive to replenish the numbers.

Posted by: Bull Aug 13 2013, 12:46 AM

My understanding is that it's not that they "melted" all of a sudden. It's that they weren't properly "welded" at a micro level. Any stress can cause the micro-welds holding the material together to come loose, causing the item to appear to "melt" or disintegrate.

There's a couple schools of thought on Nanites. One is more realistic, one is much more sci-fi, the "gray goo" nanites. I don;t really know a lot about either of then myself (And thus avoid them for the most part), as it's outside my area of interest.

Problem is that SR4 very much was using the Gray Goo version for a lot of things. microscopic Machines that can build stuff out of, umm, stuff. It was science-magic, and while that's fine if you're doing a high sci-fi game, Shadowruns not that. And Nanites as they were presented effectively change the entire Shadowrun world, and make it, well, not Shadowrun anymore.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2013, 01:16 AM

Would you describe that as "melted to slag", though?

Come on, machines making stuff out of stuff are a no-no, but magic making stuff out of nothing is fine?

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 13 2013, 01:27 AM

Of course! Don't you know anything about science?!?
[/linkara]

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 13 2013, 01:42 AM

Oh please. If "a wizard did it" was a catch-all excuse then you should have no problems with anything in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Bull Aug 13 2013, 01:44 AM

Magic takes effort and magic is very rare. And Magic doesn;t just "create stuff out of nothing". there's no summon food and water spells. No "Create wall". mages are not and cannot replace manufacturing.

But super-nanites can, as used in some sci-fi. And that eliminates most of the dystopia from Shadowrun, and that's a problem. Shadowrun has a set genre and theme that most players and casual fans are familiar and comfortable with. It's what they expect when they sit down to play the game. And frankly Shadowrun Returns is just reinforcing this.

Food stops being a problem. manufacturing stops being a problem. hell, with nanoforges and 3D printing, manufacturing and commerce stops being a problem. Money is devalued, the corps lose their grip on things. And suddenly, we're playing a completely different game.

Posted by: lokii Aug 13 2013, 08:09 AM

I think the problem is you unnecessarily subscribe to the kind of wide-eyed utopianism that promised the same ideal future with the rise of atomic energy or before that the steam engine. Either we have nanotech and hence utopia or we don't have it and can remain in our cyberpunkish mire. You want Shadowrun to stay Cyberpunk? I think that is valid position. But there is a thousand ways to do that besides completely shutting down nanotechnology by which I mean tiny robots. As you point out the corporations have the most to lose in this vision of the future. Well, they are in a good position to fight it and take all its benefits for themselves. After all Shadowrun is a world where a hit squad is regarded as a legitimate extension of DRM. Nano-utopians are developing a portion of the sprawl to be a post-scarcity haven? You send some goons to insert malicious nanites into their fabrication facilities. Or you fear-monger the populace about how every day more weapons are printed down in the barrens until city hall sends the police corp to shut down the 3D printers. This strange "disease" is good way to push nanotech into the framework of "everything has a price", where using this type of augmentation runs the risk of an "infection".

Marrying Cyberpunk to nanotechnology, even the science magic kind, is easy if you ask me. You make it into magic the corporations wield, a proof of their power, the stuff that builds their palaces in the sky and beyond. And while tiny machines clean the glittering corporate façades, way down in a dark alley some transhumanists are strangled to death beaten down by uniformed thugs.

EDIT: Adapted analogy to leave a bit of breathing space for the idealists.

Posted by: Bull Aug 13 2013, 08:22 AM

Here's something you're missing. Nanotech isn't gone. It hasn't completely stopped working. It's just very dangerous and unstable right now. This let us roll it back some so that we can rework how it gets used in the future. Plus, we get a plotline or six out of it in the meantime.

Posted by: lokii Aug 13 2013, 08:46 AM

Well actually, that's what I suspected:

I guess I want to say augmentation could lead to a better future, the stuff you can do with magic certainly. There is even fusion power. None of this, including nanotechnology, needs to change anything about the setting. Utopia was always about society not technology as evidenced by the 16th century origin of the term.

Other than that my only problem in the handling of this plot line is given how important nanotechnology is supposed to be for cyber- and bioware (going by the last two editions), you would think that its (temporary) removal should be more disruptive than (so far) it has turned out to be. Cyberware quality grades becoming more affordable is just one example.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2013, 11:17 AM

But nanites cost nothing and are very common? Despite the costs and availabilities in Augmentation?
Besides, magic isn't all that rare. One in every hundred metahumans is Awakened on average, plus there are metasapients, free spirits and whatnot. I somewhat doubt one in every hundred metahumans is a skilled professional in production industry.

It just creates stuff out of mana of which there is unlimited supply, which is only going to increase for the next 2500 years.
And the spell is called Nutrition, Street Magic, p.170.

Neither can nanites, realistically. Mages can at least bind a spirit of fire and order it to turn crank.

And the nanites in Shadowrun have to be those cornucopia super-nanites why, exactly? There is no reason for them to be cheap, especially minding that self-replication is not yet an option.
Hell, in sci-fi, geneengineering and ocean farming eliminate hunger and inequality once and for all, too.

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 13 2013, 11:32 AM

Isn't there a wall [element] spell in 4th edition?

On a similar subject, what effect would the ability to summon spirits have had on the construction industry?

Posted by: Sengir Aug 13 2013, 01:01 PM

At least the failure of the fighter jets was explained by the nanite maintenance systems going haywire, those systems would certainly include a hive. The AKs are another story, though from the offhand reference it might also be possible that just freshly printed ones melted. If all nano-AKs melted, well, that would be a stupid end to a stupid item...

@Loki:

You realize that the widespread adaption of the steam engine spurred some _minor_ socioeconomic upheaval? And that is exactly what nanites as presented in 4th Ed should by all rights do, only in reverse direction: Nanites are presented as so dirt cheap and flexible that this would be an industrial revolution which puts the means of production into everybody's hands -- and contrary to certain other experiments at that, it would work, because nanites are the super magic cure-all.

Cyberpunk has always been about the effects of technology on humans. But the treatment nanites got was like compact, safe nuclear reactors were invented in the 19th century, made affordable to everyone, and NOTHING happened.

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 13 2013, 01:21 PM

So the TL;DR is: "We didn't like nanites, so they had to go"?

Posted by: lokii Aug 13 2013, 01:58 PM

Yes. Minor is underselling it, but I assume you quip. Note though my point was that it didn't bring about a utopian society, not that it didn't have any effects.

I would have to really dig into Augmentation to discuss this. But let's just say your characterisation is correct. Fourth Edition in the beginning attempted to take Shadowrun more into the direction of transhumanism. Making this new technology powerful was probably deliberate so it could drive the setting towards a post-cyberpunk future. Of course these plans were abandoned, maybe when Rob Boyle left or Peter Taylor. I don't know the details. A lot was set up besides nanites for that transformation: Evo's new corporate identity, the Transhuman League, new AIs etc. Remember we lost a space elevator sourcebook somewhere along the way. I believe had the setting followed this path, we would have seen the socio-economic changes nanotechnology brings about. Instead Catalyst toyed with nanotech on the gear level but didn't further explore its effects on society and at the latest with Fifth Edition will bury the post-cyberpunk project for good.

Posted by: apple Aug 13 2013, 02:03 PM

Well, they are not steampunk-cyberware which is the preferred way in SR5.

SYL

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 13 2013, 05:14 PM

Like Deus becoming a hive intelligence in a body of nothing but nanomachines, ala SID 6.7 .Yes, but it's not a permanent spell. As soon as the magician stops focusing on their [Sand] wall, it disappears without a trace.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 13 2013, 05:41 PM

The basics were already introduced when M&M went all Drexlerian "fuck logic" nanobots, anything else is more or less the logical consequence of the nano-magic. If a settings includes something which violates every single bit of physics and chemistry on the books, "well, uhm, god nanites did it " actually becomes totally fine explanation for everything, and so it happened...


BTW, I consider AIs and all that to be more "para-humanism": Humanity is still around with the same problems as usual, it's just that now other "species" have the same trouble. Or worse

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 13 2013, 05:47 PM

So if two AI's fall in love and get married, moving into the same home node but later have a falling out and part ways, can one sack the other for half the node and resources?

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 13 2013, 07:03 PM

I'm no Luddite, but it's an absolute truth that machines can and have put people out of work before, and that doesn't necessarily lead to utopia given that many people are demonstrably more opposed to "freeriders" than they are to letting people freakin' starve. So things would still be a problem because people can and do manipulate who gets what in order to maintain their relative social dominance rather than manage supply based solely on practical, humane reasons. That's a big deal since the corps still had the upper hand when it comes to controlling the means of production. I mean, FFS, the reason we're actually facing economic crises in many parts of the world right now actually has more to do with market manipulation and low aggregate demand than it does with issues of supply--we could easily ramp up the production of flatscreens and donuts, but people aren't buying them right now, so we don't, because it's a bad business move. Beyond that, Shadowrun demographics haven't really ever made sense and so the notion that food supply of all things is a problem is frankly pretty farcical from the git-go. So while it's no skin off my nose where this goes, I have to say that the whole shebang over nanites hits me as an overreaction.

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 13 2013, 07:10 PM

The problem with self-replicating nanobots is that they can

1) build anything they have the raw materials for, and

2) build themselves.

In effect, you can get them to do anything. Want a building there? Release a nanobot. It'll self-replicate and be done in a couple days. Want to convert this block of apartments into a music hall? Release a nanobot. It'll self-replicate and be done in a couple days.

Plant a grain field? Nanobots. Harvest the grain field? Nanobots. Genetically engineer the grain to withstand the elements and disease? Nanobots.

Fix your broken leg? Nanobots. Cook you a nice steak dinner? Nanobots. Convert waste matter into a usable fuel source? Nanobots.

Why not? They build themselves, so once you have a few, the rest are free.

Kids want a treehouse? Nanobots. Car won't start? Nanobots. Chipped a tooth? Nanobots.

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 13 2013, 07:16 PM

Want to obliterate an infantry battalion? Nanobots (provided they don't have their own for protection).

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 13 2013, 07:16 PM

Need a babysitter and the regular is sick?

Nannybots


wait.....

Posted by: Epicedion Aug 13 2013, 07:17 PM

Convert a nearby country (and all its people and things) into a sweet suburb for your country? Nanobots.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 13 2013, 07:20 PM

Destroy a dead world and reconvert it into a lush paradise as well as revive your dead best friend who fast grows from infant to adult in record time?

Genes-... err.. Nanobots.

Posted by: lokii Aug 13 2013, 07:44 PM

That's a bit ironic though as the setting we are speaking of includes magic. But sure, nanites in their popular conception are not scientifically sound. I actually don't remember that much about nanotechnology in Shadowrun, I just reread the cyberware portion for this discussion. The rest I read quite a while back. But I believe Fatum has a point in both that self-replication is yet not achieved and that most of the nanotech stuff is still quite expensive. So, it's not as if Shadowrun has gone all the way, right?

And just to make this clear, I'm actually not a particular fan of nanotech -- I liked the whole nanohive concept as a gimmick but that's about it -- my problem is with ripping something out of the setting after it has, rightly or wrongly, been given a central role. I would prefer shifting its role to adapt it to the needs of the setting. That doesn't mean, you can't have your Sybil crisis. But the way it is portrayed with all nanotechnological applications being too unreliable for cyber- and biotech for a significant amount of time, the consequences should be more drastic. (I have given my reasoning.) And I even recognize that this would be completely impractical from the point of view of the game. That is why I don't like how it is handled.

AI marriage? Somebody should make a law against that!

Well, they are not self-replicating: "[..] self-replicating nanites are still the realm of fiction." (aug.105)


EDIT: I forgot this. Something Rob Boyle said on the Eclipse Phase forums (http://eclipsephase.com/comment/4784#comment-4784):
I know, that doesn't jibe with what I said before...

Posted by: Cheops Aug 13 2013, 08:11 PM

I do find the design idea that nanites make SR less cyberpunk because they can lead to post-scarcity pretty funny given that magic can achieve the same thing. Nanite access allows the creator to model society the way they want (whether it is free and open like Star Trek or company shops like SR's Megacorps). Magic creates autocratic fiefdoms where the mages can rule in whatever manner they want. Thus it becomes a fight between the mages and those who utilize nanites to see who's version of society comes about.

Man versus Magic indeed.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2013, 08:35 PM

Actually, that would be a World where Man meets Magic and Machine, would it not? Somehow, I always thought that was a central theme in Shadowrun.

Posted by: shinryu Aug 13 2013, 09:01 PM

i've long held the idea that what AIs in shadowrun really want is to get the hell off this stupid planet where these unpredictable magic freaks hang out and into beautiful, mana-free space, where the resonance can flourish undisturbed by idiot organic magical lizard things. so that might be one way the whole machine versus magic thing could play out.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2013, 09:37 PM

And that settles the question of their economic impact.

Posted by: RHat Aug 13 2013, 11:05 PM

Except AI's have literally nothing to do with Resonance at all. Deus MAY have converted himself into some Dissonant... Thing, but he really couldn't be considered as an AI at that point any more, because he'd have become a decidedly different entity.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 13 2013, 11:46 PM

The irony is that magic has clear limits on what it can hypothetically do, in addition to drain and any other limitations the user may face. Nanites don't


I think it was in some Tom Clancy novel (I sometimes feel the need to read dumb stuff for the dumbness of it, don't ask) that had the appropriate comparison: "That's like calling gang rape a minor social deviation".


He has a point in the former, but it does not matter since unfortunately the latter is untrue: Nanites are a one-time investment (since they do not actually degrade unless exposed to the immune system) and if they ever break, oh well, buy some cheap stuff which does roughly the same and reprogram them...


Assuming the worst possible interpretation you get the worst possible outcome. Who would have thought?

Posted by: lokii Aug 14 2013, 07:38 AM

Well, since they are both fiction, it largely depends on the writing. And it's the same as with this next point:
You can address the problems with rebalancing. (I leave it to Fatum to address the price issue, if he wants to.)

Nah, it's like calling gang rape deviant behaviour. Which it totally is.

I don't think mine is the worst possible interpretation. That would be something like, you cannot do cybersurgery at all and anything but the most basic maintenance of augmentations is impossible. But we have been over this.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 14 2013, 02:37 PM

Nanites are supposed to be technology and not magic, accordingly they at least have to pretend playing by the rules of science (funnily enough, the intro of M&M talked about the need to make tech seem believable...). The rules of science say that you cannot arbitrarily scale down a robot and still expect it to work. The most sophisticated writing cannot make precision manufacturing in a moshpit more convincing.

Posted by: BigGreenSquid Aug 17 2013, 02:43 AM

I would have actually been really supportive had they merged the SR 2050 project with SR5 as a restart. Who in the 80's or 90's could have imagined how much has changed with the internet and cell phones. With all the changes we've seen, the changes to the Internet underway now to accommodate the mobile market may be even bigger than what has come before.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2012/12/04/5-eye-opening-stats-that-show-the-world-is-going-mobile/

As much as I loved the previous editions of SR, I thought SR4 was a major step in the right direction to keep SR from becoming dated SciFi.

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 17 2013, 02:48 AM

"Nanopunk" is already dated. Shadowrun is already hitching itself to the next big buzzwords "cloud computing." I'm sure SR6 will adapt to whatever the next big thing is after that goes the way of PETS.COM.

Posted by: hermit Aug 17 2013, 03:38 PM

BigDataRun?

Posted by: Tzeentch Aug 17 2013, 05:14 PM

I suggested Femtotechnology

Posted by: lokii Aug 17 2013, 05:44 PM

The real problem is the "run" part, who uses their legs anymore? I suggest Shadowsegway. An idea that firmly plants me in the retro camp, I might add.

Posted by: hermit Aug 17 2013, 09:32 PM

http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040528/040528_green_army_bcol_7a.grid-4x2.jpg

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2013, 09:38 PM

That... That.... That is just wrong on so many levels.

Posted by: BigGreenSquid Aug 17 2013, 10:20 PM

Its the Chair Force, what do you expect?

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 18 2013, 01:08 AM

Upgrade to the Ares-Segway Terrier, or similar variant. It's got a seat belt and backrest so you can be upright and mobile while wholly in VR. By the artwork it even looks like it can navigate stares without too much difficulty.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 18 2013, 06:49 PM

Quick survey among women confirms my suspicion, that guy is totally not handsome enough to qualify for the Wish Fulfillment Fantasy Corps.