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Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 18 2013, 11:29 PM

Cloning technology in shadowrun is pretty staggering. On top of that, Cyberware and Bioware are amazingly powerful.

So, could you build a metahuman body entirely out of cyberware and bioware, then program its brain via DNI? Every body part genetically engineered to be all it can be, with cyberware filling the gaps?

Don't worry about how viable it is, someone somewhere would try it just to see if they can.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2013, 11:40 PM

You really do have some of the most interesting premises for thread topics, FuelDrop.

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 18 2013, 11:43 PM

Just trying to keep people entertained.

Huh. If they did build this guy, would he have an essence score?

Posted by: Umidori Aug 19 2013, 12:24 AM

There are already rules for jarhead cyborgs in SR4. They have crippling complications and are buried under a mountain of Caution Tape and GM Fiat, but they at least exist.

Anyways, such cyborgs have an Essence of 0.01 automatically. If pressed, I'd use that as a baseline for your proposed... biorgs? Sciorgs? Hrrm. I'll have to get back to you on the name.

~Umi

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 19 2013, 12:39 AM

No. There are clonal replacement organs, but they are not "bioware" per se, and do not inflict Essence loss.


The term you're looking for is PAB - Programmable ASIST Biofeedback; brainwashing, essentially. Even that's a big if, though. Giving someone a programmed response to predetermined stimuli is one thing. Building a whole personality from the ground up is something completely different, especially if you expect him to blend in with the general population long-term.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2013, 12:43 AM

But that is exactly what you use a PAB for. How else are you going to program a deep cover agent? In the Shadowrun World, you use a PAB for that.

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 19 2013, 12:44 AM

Could you find someone with a personality close to what you want, use PAB to fine tune them, then copy their personality and put it wholesale into your creations?

Would such a creation have a soul, or be able to function without one? If they could, then theoretically this concept might be able to break the cyberzombie barrier.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 19 2013, 12:49 AM

YMMV. In that instance, you're starting with someone who already has a mind, and then sculpting it to order. FuelDrop is talking about taking a "blank" brain and writing to it like a hard drive. How would biofeedback work on a brain that, by definition, has no responses to alter?


Easily.

GM fiat. I would say no. AFAIK there has never been any sign of Shadowrun having the technology to copy a mind.


Again, GM fiat, but for reasons of game balance your GM would have to be completely off his rocker to allow this. Cyberzombies with positive Essence, so you can shove even more 'ware into them? No.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2013, 12:54 AM

True, I see your point, but again, it would just take more time, in my opinion. Especially if you had a baseline to work from initially.



Cyberzombies have no need of Positive Essence, as there is really no limit for implanting more ware into their bodies. They vastly benefit from a Negative Essence to start with. Besides, if you have Positive Essence, you are not a Cyberzombie, by definition.

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 19 2013, 03:09 AM

Wasn't there an in-world high ranking executive of some mega corp that basically did cutting edge detailed brain recordings that were implanted into clones on the event of his death? Maybe more than one?
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=38430

Posted by: shinryu Aug 19 2013, 03:19 AM

vaguely related thought: is there any good reason not to make bioware cyberlimbs? that is to say, why not apply orthoskin/muscle toner/augmentation/ whatever to a transplant limb pre-transplant, so that it gets the improvements of the bioware with (presumably) less essence cost to you? if you only care about having agility 9 in your arm, say, it provides a less invasive way to do that at potentially a fifth of the cost in essence. for that matter, why bother to hack the arm off first in any case? if partial augs work for cyberlimbs it seems sensible that partial upgrades should work for natural ones as well.

Posted by: Fiddler Aug 19 2013, 04:36 AM

I believe it was aztechnology and it involved blood magic if i remember. It was more ov a magical movement of consiousness,

Posted by: Voran Aug 19 2013, 05:12 AM

Honestly, I think you'd be better off doing the Spartan approach to grow your own Master Chief. Metagame flashgrowing a clone doesn't seem to result in a viable result, other than spare parts. If you want to grow a being, you pretty much need to take the 18+ years to do so.

Posted by: BigGreenSquid Aug 19 2013, 05:36 AM

On a similar line of thought, would it be possible to implant the biodrone hardware into a (meta)human?

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Aug 19 2013, 06:13 AM

Given the existence of personafixes in SR4, installing a full personality into a blank seems like an option already.


As for rigging a metahuman, it's been discussed before. The general consensus, as I recall was "Yes, but don't allow it."

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 19 2013, 06:18 AM

I want to be clear, this entire thread was all about "within the logic of the shadowrun universe, would this be possible?" rather that "Could this work in a game?"

Posted by: Fiddler Aug 19 2013, 06:40 AM

I seem to remember a game where we had a rigger and an infiltration soecialist. This was 3 edition so it's been a while they had cyberware that allowed for the rigger to "rig" the specialist basically couldo see through the eyes of the other and set up indirect fire solutions from it. Been a long time though and i can't find my 3e books atm to say what they used for it.

Posted by: shinryu Aug 19 2013, 07:13 PM

ah, but what if i rig myself as do cyborgs? or do we just call that wired reflexes?

i don't see any reason not to rig a metahuman, honestly. it's a horrible thing no one would probably volunteer for, and it's not like the signal wouldn't be detectable. on the other hand, a rigger adaptation for your wireless workforce makes the security spider happy...

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Aug 19 2013, 08:04 PM

There was an argument about that awhile ago, about installing a rig on yourself rather than WR3, and then using VR to jump in and rig your own body to get a much higher initiative. It was generally decided this was foul play, as I recall.

Posted by: Voran Aug 19 2013, 10:06 PM

Heh yeah that's pretty much a: "I reach across the table and punch you in the back of the neck" "My character?" "No I'm telling you I'm going to do that to you. Right now."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2013, 10:20 PM

Had its drawbacks... All Actions were effectively Complex Actions, which resulted in a degradation of action economy.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 20 2013, 12:46 AM

That would rather mitigate the cheese. What about Actions that were already Complex?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2013, 12:56 AM

They Stayed Complex.

Posted by: Godwyn Aug 20 2013, 06:22 AM

I always felt this should be doable with skill wires. Isn't that sort of the point? Bypass the brain to get the meat to do something the brain doesn't know how. If installed right, seems pretty easy to make it do something the brain doesn't want to do at all.

Although, with that setup it would allow a person to continue acting while unconscious, so long as they had the right program. Good way to get cowardly guards to fight to the death against overwhelming odds.

Posted by: Erik Baird Aug 20 2013, 03:28 PM

That's called a personafix with datafilter (as used by bunraku parlors).