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Posted by: Raiden Aug 19 2013, 07:30 PM

so looking at the TM stuff it feels like TMs are not only matrix mages but, due to poor rules, are now inferior to deckers in every aspect but staying hidden. Also they have lots of CFs that seem to be decker supportive, a few examples.

Cleaner- remove OS score (no useful to said TM usually),
matrix attribute infusion- does not raise dice pools, only limits, with deckers having inherently more dice than TMs this works well has a support to a decker,


Now not to say they are not "fun" to play, with all the nifty CFs they have (pupeteer, resonance spike, and tattletale) It seems they work best as a support to the decker than as the hacker themselves. that being said I have had very little in game exp. with this. (we have a TM and a Decker in the group, the decker is about 10 dice ahead of the TM in almost everything, not counting programs)

Posted by: Abschalten Aug 19 2013, 07:38 PM

Why not? It's what I think. The opinions I've gotten of technomancers in SR5 from friends of mine range from "waste of pages" to "superfluous." Their complex forms have Fading values that are way too high, they've had nerfs to crucial mechanics, and anything a technomancer has access to, a decker has these things, but better, and often for a far less investment cost. They're "fun" in the same way playing a character who sucks at their profession is.

Posted by: Raiden Aug 19 2013, 07:42 PM

I will argue that while not as proficient as a decker TMs have nifty things that I feel add a bit of fun to them. (not to say it makes up for the nerf sledgehammer they got, but still) enough to play one if you want, unless you only care about being the best. also, TMs have the only attack action that can be done without alerting the receiver.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 19 2013, 10:06 PM

ummm... how does your decker have 10 more dice across the board than the technomancer? dice pools should be *fairly* close, unless the decker invested in attributes and skills while the technomancer completely dumped both...

(note: not arguing that technomancers didn't get nerfed, or that their best role fresh out of chargen is as a secondary/support hacker... unless you potentially count rigging... but i am surprised that the dicepools are so much bigger for your decker)

Posted by: Raiden Aug 19 2013, 10:09 PM

sorry, its an adept decker, and not counting codeslinger and the like its more along the lines of 6 dice.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 19 2013, 10:29 PM

ah okay, adept decker makes a lot more sense

still a bit higher than i would have expected (adept skills should basically be limited to 3-point increases at chargen, unless you're assuming the really screwy wording they've got is accurate), but much more reasonable =S

Posted by: Raiden Aug 19 2013, 11:08 PM

said hacker has cerebral boosters some how lol.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 19 2013, 11:22 PM

So with the new rules do you think Adept hackers closed the gap between themselves and full deckers/hackers?

I ask since I agree that Technomancers are peged to played a bit more as their own role like the topic suggests...
Maybe closing the gap between themselves and a adept hacker/decker since SR4(not great at anything but looks fun to play).

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 20 2013, 02:05 AM

Interesting... Some stuff I was coming to on my own about technomancers being better as support to deckers & riggers than going on their own as premier hackers because of their innate ability to work the Matrix with just their brain.

Interesting that in this edition of Deckerrun that the archetype that would likely be the best hacker is delegated to being a 4th rate character type.

Posted by: Raiden Aug 20 2013, 02:09 AM

not quite sure what you are asking.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 20 2013, 02:57 AM

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 20 2013, 05:18 AM

i'm pretty sure that adept deckers are the best presently available in SR4 (well, possible argument for mystic adepts, but i suspect that won't really take off until we get a chargen method other than priority) actually.

bearing in mind that the adept powers are improving their skills, and need not directly affect things on the matrix, provided we're talking about the ones that just give you extra skill.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2013, 01:07 PM

Which is really sad, actually. A Technomancer should be able to stand on his own.

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 20 2013, 05:30 PM

I haven't run a Technomancer, but I just stated one up in a spread sheet to see what I could do with it, and I think it's fairly effective compared to a Decker. Priority A Attributes, B Technomancer, C Skills, D Race (Human), E Resources.

Looking at the Complex Forms, I focused on Puppeteer, which when cast on a device can be used to make it take matrix actions, like Invite Marks. Complex Forms don't generate Overwatch Scores, so this allows a "GOD Free" hacking alternative vs devices, but not hosts, personas, or files. With a Specialization in Puppeteer on a rank 6 software skill, along with Resonance 6, the character throws 14 Dice. Invite Mark is a simple action, so the Technomancer only needs 2 net hits vs the target's Firewall + Willpower to have it invite him to place 3 marks. Also, as a Resonance action, threading the Puppeteer complex form isn't something that a matrix perception check can detect as your persona's most recent matrix action, nor does it take the -2 penalty for running silent. This makes ICE less likely to detect your intrusions.

Similarly the Editor complex form allows the alteration, including copying and therefore changing of ownership, of a file without generating OS or worrying about Marks. I'm not sure how this complex form interacts with Protection and Data Bombs, though I think it's supposed to ignore them as it's not "Edit" which is what DataBombs and Protection are associated with. That would mean a copied file is free of the databomb (it remains "attached" to the original file) and protection shouldn't be a problem anymore because you own the new file.

Another complex form, Static Veil, prevents OS from going up due to time. A Decker, once they start hacking, has a limited amount of time before a GOD shows up and dumps them, but a Technomancer with Focused Concentration Rank 2 can performing hacking actions off and on for as long as they like and stay on the same grid. Better yet, when combined with the Ereaser complex form, they can pause after hacking to lower their OS score a bit, allowing them to take their time on hacking runs without worrying about GOD... ICE in a host could still be a threat of course.

Lastly, the Technomancer I made had a 6 in Charisma (Attack 6) with a 5 in Willpower (Firewall), 5 in Logic (Data Processing), 5 in Intuition (Sleaze) and 6 Resonance (Device Rating). That's fairly comparable to a Decker that spends a lot of funds on a Deck. Similar would be A Renraku Tsurugi ($214,125, 9R) at 6/5/5/4, with a device rating of only 3, although that deck can be pushed up to 7/6/6/3 when fully loaded and properly configured with software for a task.

The 6 Attack, along with Logic 5, Codesligner (Data Spike), Cybercombat 6, and a Specialization in Devices, makes the character extremely effective at burning out gear, and not bad at Brute Force Attacks. In VR that's 17 dice, limit 6, for burning out a device, with a damage of 6 + net hits. If he had a chance to Thread up Puppeteer and gain 3 marks on the device first, he does 6 more damage (2 per mark).

Now I admit a Decker+Technomancer combo can be very impressive, as a lot of the Complex Forms can work a Decker's Persona, or better yet his deck, to make him a power house of hacking, but that's not far off a Mage with the right spell selection being able to turn an Adept with the right power selections & gear into a combat monster. Also, this build I've done doesn't make much use of Sprites. A Technomnacer that focuses on Sprites: compiling them, registering them, and then using complex forms to improve/maintain them... and letting the sprite do all the hacking work, could be very potent, and generally not gain an OS score himself.

I think the biggest problem with Technomancers right now is they have a hard time getting programs or their equivlents. Needing to submerge to get an echo to get one cyberprogram is a bit rough, especially if PCs aren't supposed to be able to start with Submersion grades. Programs like Sneak, Wrapper, Lockdown, Biofeedback, and others provide fairly important features to some styles of hacker character. More over, a Technomancer's attributes do a great job of aproximating a Deck's attributes, but decks can not only be reconfigured, but they can also run programs to boost their attributes. Technomancers have the Infusion complex form, but it targets Devices, which sadly a Technomancer and his Sprites are not.

Posted by: Raiden Aug 20 2013, 05:48 PM

dont forget the 10 fading you are taking for using a level 6 puppeteer CF. and the edit CF is L+1 I think?
anyway, here is a decker, 6 hacking, 8 logic (cerebral boosters) specialization hacking on the fly. we are now sitting at 16 dice. lets take magic D, 2 PP= 2-3 more dice. program for +2 to this skill (exploit) we now are at what 21 dice without VR? add code slinger 23 dice w/out VR. resources A, (or B if you can make it work)skills B Attributes C magic D meta E. you still have 16-18 dice out of VR for cybercombat. at resources A you can grab a cyber arm for shooting with pistols (tasers are my fav here) and even a synaptic booster! ofc you can take res. B and skills A for more diversity in the skills area. but meh. (another thought, instead of codeslinger grab exceptional attribute for +1 across the hacking board). TMs main roll it seems is a support (meat world with diagnostics, and matrix with decker support) not to say they -cant- be the main hacker, but its harder for them.

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 20 2013, 05:58 PM

Editor is L+2.

And yeah, Puppeteer is likely set at L+4 just so technomancers won't be flinging it about like candy at a parade, unlike magicians and fireballs at F-1.

TM after using an L6 Puppeteer: "And... at the most inopportune time... I... shall go unconscious."

Posted by: Raiden Aug 20 2013, 06:01 PM

*hhmmm I feel like taking a nap, PUPETEER!*

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 20 2013, 06:18 PM

Yah, fading can be a bitch that way, but Puppeteer probably doesn't need to be cast at full Level all the time considering you only need a 2 net hits to get a simple action. If the average device is rating 2 and the average user has willpower 3, then they only get 5 dice to resist, so your average device is only needing a Level 3 or so casting for 7 Fade. At least the technomancer is resisting with 11 dice (6 resonance + 5 willpower) and it will be Stun damage instead of Physical. Still, that's a lot of stun damage I agree, but you can use it to get 3 legal marks in a single action with no OS score, so it's no minor ability.


Magic, Cyberware, decent (mental) Stats, high skills, an expensive deck, with cash and skills left over for an tricked out cyberarm and gun? Wow. I'm feeling a bit inspired now. Thanks for the tips on building a highly focused decker!

Posted by: Raiden Aug 20 2013, 06:33 PM

I. I am not sure if that is genuine or sarcastic, I will go with genuine. heh. unfortunately the above would limit two attributes two 1 (without karma expenditure or cyber averages :/) but other physical stats around 3ish.

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 20 2013, 06:48 PM

Genuine. I had a 4th edition pink mowhawk type hacker character with a cyberarm for gunplay. He was an experiment in building a rediculously focused hacker character in 4th rules. This is essentially a 5th edition (adept enhanced) similar concept. Mind you, the original hashsaw was built for AR hacking with slightly enhanced reflexes. I could try to do that here, but I'd have to drop all the ware and spend a lot more power points.

Right now I've got 9 Hacking with 8 Logic + specialization. Sadly I can't fit a full cyber arm on the character without losing another power point or reducing the cerebral boosters to rating 1. I think I can probably get his hacking up some more through, but I need to head to work now.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 20 2013, 06:55 PM

If you're just hacking on and off, you might as well reboot your deck/persona from time to time. On the other hand, Static Veil seems mandatory if you want to use Sprites, which generate OS just by existing...

@Redjack:

Did the rules at least work without too many "uhm, good question" moments?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 20 2013, 07:52 PM

@blackjaw:

puppeteer is good. so is spoofing. and actually, you probably will need force 6 (or close to it) most of the time against anything significant... if you're only up against a device rating 2 device, just wreck it with hacking and then reboot afterwards, and you never have to deal with GOD anyways. if you're not up against a device rating of 2, you need to have a high enough limit to account for the device's hits, and since nobody wants to take 8 or 9 points of fading with *no* gain just because someone managed to roll a couple of hits more than "average", you're probably looking at a pretty high rating complex form.

editor doesn't mention anything about letting you bypass copy protection or data bombs. i see no reason why it would. although at least that would help a great deal in terms of making technomancers worthwhile... complete safety from data bombs would help an awful lot, especially since they are so ridiculously devastating to technomancers.

static veil is actually not that great in many ways. your OS only increases every 15 minutes by time. given that hacking has been greatly sped up, that isn't terribly useful, except for keeping sprites around longer than ~2.5 hours.

eraser is pretty handy though, and ultimately makes static veil even more useless since you can just use it once or twice every 15 minutes.

as to those matrix attributes, they don't compare favourably to the best deck you can get in chargen, which has 4/5/6/7, can be swapped with extreme ease (no really, just buy a whole bunch of copies of the program that lets you swap everything, one for each possible configuration of programs and attributes you expect to want, and it's a simple reconfigure to get your deck to fit just about any purpose). the damaging CF is kinda garbage, apart from not generating OS; the amount of damage is merely net hits, so unless their soak pool is 3 times your attack rating, just attacking stuff with regular hacking is probably better (and in fact, considering how you can boost your deck's ability to attack via programs, it's actually even more favourable to go with a regular decker).

it's not just about dice pools (although to some extent those will likely be smaller for a technomancer). it's about versatility, and not taking huge amounts of fading damage which can take extended rest breaks to recover from, and not having to use your personal damage tracks in the matrix, and being able to use cyberware and bioware.

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 20 2013, 09:18 PM

The problem is every time you reboot your persona you lose all your marks on other icons (and vice versa). If your trying to go slow, say because you are trying to hang around and snoop on traffic, or because you need to wait for a legitimate user to pull a file out of a host archive, then the slowly gathering OS score will be trouble, especially if when the archived file gets pulled out of 2 hours later you already have a large Overwatch Score that means you can't do much without being beset by defenses.

Admittedly, Eraser can do something similar to Static Veil if you cast it at low Level a few times an hour. Also, it is useful for keeping a non-registered sprite around longer than a few hours due to it's OS.

Look at Databomb and Protection (under Edit File) though: they apply under a very specific set of actions that does not include Complex Forms. Essentially I don't think Editor (complex form) is not the same thing as Editing (Matrix Action) a file, although it provides the same ends. It's not clear, but it might provides a way around the protection and bomb.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 20 2013, 11:52 PM

Adept/Hackers in 4th i felt were relegated to finding a few specializations and staying just o.k.
as far as the rest of their technicial skills. But do you see a support role for adept type deckers more relevent?

The rule changes do make hacking the matrix in SR5 more acessable i guess.

Posted by: quentra Aug 20 2013, 11:55 PM

With the monetary investment in making a half-passable decker, it's actually less. Because by the time you've invested shit into being a decent decker, you might as well stay that way.

Posted by: Raiden Aug 21 2013, 12:12 AM

Adept hackers in sr4 is allowed geas and or ways easily beat the mundane in any hacking area.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 21 2013, 12:13 AM

True. but taking away the monetary investment at first, the game may be open for other archtypes to at least not be awful at it in an ongoing campaign.

I'm looking to play a magician/decker if the numbers are right....
The changes in the 6th world version of the matrix make me think...

EDIT:

I mean mystic adept/decker.....

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 21 2013, 12:51 AM

That is a very large stretch...

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 21 2013, 04:51 AM

Looks like you're right:
Edit File, Page 239: "Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. "
Edit File, Page 239: "A protected file cannot be read, changed, deleted, or copied until its protection is broken."
Set Data Bomb, page 242: "The Data Bomb is triggered when someone attempts to read, edit, copy, protect, delete, or put another Data Bomb on the file without using the already-in-place Data Bomb’s passcode."
Set Data Bomb, page 242: "If the passcode is used, the Data Bomb doesn’t activate. Instead, it remains attached to the file, waiting for the next guy."
Editor, page 252: "You infuse a file with Resonance long enough to manipulate its contents. Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test against the Intuition + Data Processing of the file’s owner. You can make the same amount of changes to the file that you would be able to make with your net hits in Edit File actions."

I had hoped that "manipulate contents" was an intentional way around "edit" as a trigger/restriction for data bombs and protection. My thinking was that it was a resonance thing, and that standard matrix security simply didn't detect it because it was a complex form not a matrix action, but the wording doesn't really hold up to that interpretation. It looks more like Editor is just a way to edit and otherwise mess with a file without having a Mark on it.

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 21 2013, 09:22 AM

I believe this was intended by the developers? SR5 has gone to great lengths to bring back Deckers.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 21 2013, 11:30 AM

I'd say they went to great lengths to redesign the Matrix once more, reintroducing deckers was a welcome side effect. Because all there is to the new decks basically boils down to "security got upgraded and we developed ASICs to break it, henceforth known as decks".

Posted by: Pollution Aug 21 2013, 11:49 AM

I don't know. I actually think that it DOES go around the databomb aspect... Or at least maybe copies it all over into a new file with the same settings on it.

The reason I think this is that there are almost NO spells/CF's that do the same thing as another NORMAL action. The Edit Matrix action is able to be used by ANYONE in the matrix (Decker, adept decker, or a technomancer) without the need for a specific program/CF/power. Therefore, the editor CF must be special in some way.

If this was 4th or 4a, I would agree with you. CF's were just "copies" of a program but using the resonance angle. NOW, a Technomnacer can do anything a Decker can, out the gate, without spending BP, Karma, or some other system to do so. There are no programs to achieve your ends, only Actions (disregarding the actual programs which are now mods to actions).

So, that brings up the question of Editor and Edit. Why on God's Green Earth would they put a CF to copy a matrix action without the DIRECT INTENTION to make it different from the plain action?

If you have Logic 5, Software 5, that's 10 dice for Edit action.
If you have Resonance 5, Software 5, you're still looking at 10 dice for Editor.... Why the hell would they do that? Yeah, you can have Resonance 6, making it a +1 die rolled, but that's hardly worth 7 karma to pick up something you can do out of the gate.

No, there has to be another reason? Is it just marks? you don't need marks? That COULD be it, however getting marks doesn't take very long (though it does increase OS).

A Decker with Edit action and a Technomancer using Editor (with the exact same stats, baring Resonance) will achieve the exact same end. The Decker will get a few points of OS more than the Technomancer, and might take an extra turn, but the end result is the same, and the OS increase is most likely only 2-3 points.

So what makes Editor special? It has to be something other than, "This CF does exactly the same thing as the action you can do without spending karma or taking drain to do."

I kind of feel like because it's a CF, it might just bypass more than just Mark requirements and OS. For the love of all that is shiny, you're going to take Fading damage 1/2 the time when you do it.

If they're the same thing, I'll NEVER buy Editor. It's not worth the fade and the karma. It just isn't.

EVERY other CF has a specific and VERY special use that you can't get with a Matrix action (some programs might do SIMILAR, but not the same thing).

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 21 2013, 11:53 AM

The thing i find funny is the fact that the Matrix as in SR4 was more secure just by being so hostile to everyone using it. It amounted to individuals or small groups snarling over virtual carcasses dumped on the road by thoes in the 'know'...

The assessability of the Matrix has improved therefore lowering the hostility.
And the addition of a unified defensive system helps too.....

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 21 2013, 04:45 PM

Well, yeah. It's Deckerrun now...

Posted by: BlackJaw Aug 21 2013, 04:54 PM

Make that Magic-Decker-Run if you really want to beat on the dying horse. The Decker-Adept-with-Cerebralboosters is a potent hacker build. I'm looking at 23+ dice on a Hack on the Fly action, and that's with the Running Silent penalty canceling out the Hot VR bonus.

The Matrix is both more and less secure now. The outright hacker based theft I could pull in 4th edition isn't possible anymore thanks to ownership rules, but the game was specifically designed to make hacking faster and more effective in the short run. To counter that concept they also made it time limited, and expensive, which is to say that script kiddies aren't dancing all over the matrix because you can't use a commlink to hack (and decks are quasi-illegal and expensive), and the zombie-bot armies of hacked commlinks aren't really possible any more because your OS goes up with time once you start hacking, and your marks vanish when you reboot or get dumped.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 21 2013, 05:02 PM

what the editor CF does is let you edit things a whole heck of a lot faster. you can perform your net hits in edit actions. whether or not you can use that to edit the next [net hits] rounds of a live video feed is somewhat open to interpretation though =S

Posted by: DWC Aug 22 2013, 05:00 PM

I found quite the opposite. An Adept hacker with the right 1 point of Essence loss was vastly superior to a purely technological hacker.

Posted by: BigGreenSquid Aug 24 2013, 07:15 AM

There is a whole lot you can squeeze into that 1 point of essence loss, and things like a datajack and sim module could be left out via trodes.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 24 2013, 10:47 AM

I liked the math processor and the one more that inhanced logic that i forget the name of....

but even with, it was hard to get hacking skills on par with a good hacker build. Adepts tended to have some type of secondary skill set completely unrelated to the Matrix that needed at least as many points..

Posted by: Raiden Aug 24 2013, 05:16 PM

not really, you can, as an adept, specialize completely in the matrix.

Posted by: shonen_mask Aug 24 2013, 05:25 PM

True.

But then there is the problem of your character not being able to do anything else. I guess if I find a group that needs a pure decker I will try just that.

Posted by: DWC Aug 28 2013, 11:31 PM

Or you're a hacker/face, which means you're spending a paltry amount of your power points on kinesics, and two skills, which does nothing to dilute your hacking ability and actually improves your value to the team as a researcher since you can do legwork in and out of the matrix with ease.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 2 2013, 06:46 AM

The more theorycrafting I do with Technos for 5e, the more depressed I become. If someone was that hard on for the return of the "Decker", they should have found a way of making it a unique and viable choice, without completely marginalizing the Technomancers. Even the priority build is slanted against Technomancers.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 2 2013, 07:21 AM

it was a perfectly viable build in 4e. technomancers were pretty danged good at being the classic decker who sits in a heavily fortified van while everyone else goes in for the run, but as soon as you tried to fit both hacking and a second area of specialty in you were pretty much screwed. you could replace a regular decker fairly well, especially as you started earning karma (although the regular decker wasn't completely left in the cold, i don't feel the cyber available to make one a better decker was competitive with the stuff available to technomancers). but try and replace, say, a combat decker who can be almost as effective as a street samurai, or a decker who was good at physical infiltration or social engineering (never mind trying to mix in a bit of all of the above), and you were pretty much going to have a bad time.

even combining decker with rigger was a bit rough, although certainly mitigated by the remote control option and the fact that you didn't need any high attributes to pull it off.

in short, any decker that wanted to anything beyond just decking was going to be significantly better off not being a technomancer. unless we get into theoretical case discussions where said technomancer has had a few hundred karma to spend or something, but at that point our theoretical technomancer is probably not much better at being a technomancer than he was when the character was built.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 2 2013, 06:51 PM

That's just it though, I think whoever created the new Matrix rules was so hung up on bringing back the "Decker" (in RAW 4 they were "Hackers") that they just marginalized TMs as a result of the focus on semantics. They could have found a better way (IMHO) to reintroduce the concept of decking, without gutting Technomancers.
The concept of the wireless world and the introduction of TMs (they are not just evolved Otaku) was my favorite part of SR4. Most of the changes for "Deckers" I actually like. The ability to change your setup, on-the-fly, is a great boon to those guys.
I don't like the concept of TMs as "Matrix Magicians", but if that is what you are going to make them, then at least make them comparable. Don't make them 30 Karma more expensive to create. For the higher build cost you also get an analog to spirits that are far less powerful than spirits and much more prohibitive Drain/Fading costs.

Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 2 2013, 07:27 PM

All Matrix related characters are suffering the same marginalization.
Now it doesn't matter how high your skills are eventually your illigal actions will get you noticed. No more 'hijacking' and 'spamming' then bragging how cool you hacker is.....

Maybe thr real intent of the authors is to incourage mult-skilled, multi purposed runners.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 2 2013, 08:09 PM

Just seems to emphasize more speed and recklessness than care and caution. You blast in, do what you want, jack out, and reboot. Deckers have the advantage of higher limits and more flexible options in programs. Technomancers... Well, they're no longer the super heroes of the matrix as they're relegated to "hero support", the caste few strive to be.

And in all honesty the blasting in part is something that can been done in SR4 as well.

Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 2 2013, 08:42 PM

I agree.

The only way to solve that now, is to get physically closer to a target then get out. Or plan small incursions to gather useful info. Very doable from a roleplay sense with relativly less risk....

SR4 was an environment where every turn you character took creeping through the matrix was potentially a game ender since useful nodes/targets were very well defended by a very highly thought out, layered matrix computer scheme. It made almost no sense not to have a hyper-skilled hacker character just to be passable.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 3 2013, 10:33 AM

So, my TM, with no augmentation, and with machine sprites which can no longer interact with machines and no way to boost his own meat stats and sprites which get no optional abilities based on their level, should grab a gun and start shooting back? That or suck up the essence and resonance hit and get cybered (after all I only had to spend the same priority as a full Mage to get resonance and I only get 30 karma less of benefits for the same priority).
Maybe I should submerge three times and be a Riggermancer. Of course I still can't use a remote deck and my living persona at the same time. Of course I can always overthread my complex forms and ruin someone's day, If I'm willing to eat the non-healable physical damage to do it.
The best I have been able to come up with so far, is a human TM with 7 edge to be able to exceed limits and soak the fading. Of course the priority table is unbalanced for special stats for Humans, so you can only do that with A priority for Techno and C for race, but it IS possible. With this build I can wait around for the right moment to unload, scrub some unsuspecting Decker and then let the rest of the team finish up the run while I take a nap. The other bright spot is, if we don't have a need to frag some poor schmuck in the Trix, I can use that spare edge on compiling/registering, between runs for my limited highly specialized sprites.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 01:11 PM

Well, yes... Sometimes using a gun is a better alternative.
That said... Technomancers were sorely nerfed in SR5, and for no apparent reason. *shrug*

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 3 2013, 02:22 PM

It's a shame a lot of the nanowire is being redone because that had awesome hack potential if you hacked the hive.

Or imagine buildings that had nanosystems built & maintained right in the walls. Need to reconfigure a floor's layout, program it in for during midnight maintenance and the nanos could have it ready overnight....

Anyway....

I think a lot of stuff has been scale back so it has longer game potential and you can't cap out right away, but I also think some of the basic functions got booted up the tree a bit further than intended or wise.

Posted by: quentra Sep 3 2013, 06:51 PM

I actually had a question about TMs - for most devices, if in use the device icon is subsumed by the persona icon (requiring a Matrix Perception check to see the device), but for TMs, they only have their persona. Meaning that a cop (or anyone, really) can take a Matrix Perception action at a TMs persona and go 'Waitaminute, this person isn't using a device...OH NOES TECHNOMANCER PROLLY CRIMINAL KILL IT KILL IT WITH FIRE'.

I'm hoping I read that wrong, so is that actually what TMs are expected to be? In addition to all the mechanical nerfs, they're also retardedly simple to discover? I mean, that's practically unplayable at that level.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 3 2013, 06:56 PM

I don't think you're reading it wrong. Kinda how I read it too. Technomancers are not recognized as devices (true in SR4 as well), but they don't automatically run in hidden mode anymore and cannot slave a commlink to hide behind like they used to. They can still run in silent mode like other things, and suffer the same dice pool penalty as well.

Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 3 2013, 08:58 PM

But the can remove an overwatch score and nobody can do that I think....

A technomancer/decker sounds real good.



Tymeaus Jalynsfein;

What do you mean when you say machine sprites can no longer interact with machines?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 09:19 PM

I did not say that, Shonen_Mask... Dantic Did... I think that Dantic believes that the Machine Sprit is a Sprite that has no actual control of Machines. It does not accomplish the task it is handed. At least, that is how I read it

I know in SR4A, they had some issues with such (though not much), and from what Dantic indicated, that apparently continues/has been exacerbated? Do not currently have access to confirm that information, though. I DO know that Technomancers have been the abused victim of the Nerf Bat, though. Sadly.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 3 2013, 09:53 PM

Everytime a Resonance Spike is threaded, a Sprite Decompiles.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 3 2013, 10:08 PM

Cleaner: A Software + Resonance [Level] test at a Fading of Level + 1 to remove net hits in OS.

A reboot is faster and easier. Yes you lose your MARKs, but your OS can drop from 39 to 0 in one combat turn.

Do your hack job and reboot right away. Matrix S.O.P.

Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 3 2013, 11:15 PM

It looks like a good complex since it can be used anytime not just when your in trouble. And other deckers can call it useful, particularly if they arent technomancers....

Posted by: Jaid Sep 4 2013, 03:31 AM

it's less bad than some of the other ones, mostly because using it is unlikely to leave you crumpled in a heap for a few hours as those other ones are.

but when the matrix is designed around fast resolution, well... if you're only making 4-6 checks to hack something, it's not that hard to just hack, reboot, and start fresh on whatever your next project is most of the time.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 03:38 AM

Forgot to mention, too, that as that Complex Form is Permanent it must be sustained for a number of Combat Turns equal to its Level before it actually takes effect.

Kinda makes me think Cleaner, and the reverse Tattletale, might've been better off as Instant instead...

Posted by: Dantic Sep 4 2013, 08:52 AM

Machine Sprites in SR4 got command as a complex form and the ability to use an autosoft CF as an optional ability. They still have the powers of Stability, Gremlins, and Diagnostics, but can no longer issue commands (a remote control action which requires data processing the sprite doesn't get). They also can no longer get the autosofts as a an optional CF (they get no optional abilities of any kind in relation to their level). So they can basically try and crash a machine, help prevent someone else from crashing a machine, or help someone who is using a machine to get a bonus, but they can no longer directly control machines through command nor "jumping in"


Edit: Machine Sprites do get the Hardware skill as a trade off. They have no physical form to use tools for B/R actions, but hey you can't have everything.

Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 4 2013, 09:32 AM

If your in a gird you hacked onto you risk getting dumped off. But with the 0 overwatch makes it very optional. I agree.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 4 2013, 01:23 PM

From a look at it, they're the victim of a mis-application of game theory, specifically regarding balance. In SR4, they were, in some regards, far too powerful an option compared to other hackers. Sprites were very powerful, and threading was, generally, an easy soak. Complex forms were expensive, but once you had them you didn't have to worry about swapping like a decker did. Beyond that, resonance realms were something exclusive to TM's alone, and provided great amounts of support.

In making SR5, not just for TMs but rather across the board, they looked at all the things that were deemed "too powerful" and "too weak," hereafter referred to as "broken," and swapped them. TM's were too adaptable and deckers weren't? Flipped. Fading for threading wasn't much of an issue, and didn't hold TMs back? Flipped. Sprites were a powerful resource and relatively easy to summon? Flipped. Cost of gear was accessible mid-to-late game, allowing most sams, riggers, and deckers to "cross class" with little trouble once they had the money? Flipped.

They didn't pay enough attention to the things they were rebalancing. If A, B, and C are broken in 4.0, but A and C affect the same part of gameplay, then you can't just flip A and C both and consider it fixed. While there was apparently playtesting, it doesn't seem like technomancers were promoted properly as a playtest option, or run alongside deckers to see if they could be a viable option in their own right. If they WERE, then somebody with a heavy bias against them was either unmonitored or in a position of unrivaled authority regarding their creation. Alternatively... perhaps it was really just horrible typos.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 4 2013, 03:50 PM

not sure why you think machine sprites don't get data processing. it's a matrix attribute, and they do have it. in fact, they have it at level +3, it is actually their highest matrix attribute.

you are right on the other stuff though... they don't have any way to access the skills they would need to use to do well with controlling things, with the exception of the hardware skill. well, and i guess jamming things.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 4 2013, 03:54 PM

I also don't see any way for a Machine Sprite to get a mark on an icon, so they wouldn't be able to be used offensively to control enemy drones or weapons (I guess this is where Gremlins is supposed to come in). You could invite marks on your own drones if you had them and let them Control Device, but again, no relevant skills.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 4 2013, 05:41 PM

We have not had a technomancer yet in our game, but to me it looks like they are a few dice worse but have some added tricks. Their drain is a bit bit too high and a couple of their initiation tricks I would have either left uncapped or with a higher cap but overall not as bad as people seem to be making out. What am I missing?

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

Lost abilities from SR4. Spoofing being a device to connect, flexibility, Slaving, being part of a PAN/WAN, and jumping into drones. That's all gone now, save the last but jumping into drones now requires an echo.

Gained was an obvious icon that anyone can now see unless the technomancer runs silent, and that cannot be hidden behind a commlink like before.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

Biggest Remaining Issue (other than what Spellbinder covered) is that their Fading is too high for what it does. The Technomancer I made is not bad, Dice wise, but the Fading is a severe limit to their abilities. Even Mages do not get saddled with the atrocious Drain that Technomancers will face.

For Example:

Spells -
Control Actions: F-1
Mob Control: F+1
Control Thoughts: F-1
Mob Mind: F+1

Complex Form -
Puppeteer: L+4

Why the difference? They do roughtly the same thing in their respective fields, but Technomancers get right hosed, while the Mage does not.

Posted by: DMK Sep 4 2013, 05:58 PM

There are several things that come to mind. I'm not an expert (built my first Technomancer the other day, thread http://"http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12493.0 if you're curious) but reading through the forums has brought a few things to my attention:

1) Deckers improve their Decks with Nuyen, Technomancers have to use Karma.
2) Deckers can run overwatch on their group's devices through slaving into a PAN. Technomancers cannot be part of a PAN.
3) Deckers can be Riggers at character generation. Technomancers have to Submerge in order to have a RCC.
4) The Fading for Resonance Skills & threading Complex Forms is, generally speaking quite high. Many more knowledgeable souls then I believe it to be too high.
5) There is a belief that Sprites are much less powerful then in 4/4A. (I have 4A, but have never been inspired to compare.)

I'm sure there's more.

Still, I'd really, really like to play the TM I built above sometime. I think he'd be fun.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 4 2013, 06:00 PM

Because deep down all technomancy is really an altered form of magic and that extra 3 drain cost is the buffer cost for transistion into the virtual domain?

*ducks and runs*

Just kidding.

But yeah, I can't say why the costs are they way they be.

Maybe they didn't want to mirror magic too closely, oh look Mind control spell is X drain and Puppeteer is X Fading with X being the same.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 4 2013, 06:10 PM

I cry myself to sleep at night thinking about an Edgeless Resonance Spike.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 06:17 PM

Just to add a little:

1: And both also spend karma to improve their skills. Technomancers are now limited by their mental attributes while deckers are still theoretically open ended with the gear.
3: Technomancers can still be riggers at character generation. Even if a GM doesn't allow a submersion grade one can take a hit to their Resonance and have a Control Rig implanted in their brain, not that many will take this option.
5: With the requirement of a task just to re-register a sprite or to send it onto standby (surprised calling one from standby doesn't count), and then the automatic OS they generate, yes, using sprites has been gimped some. (Yes, I know summoners have to spend nuyen to bind spirits, but spirits also have a much wider direct application than many sprites which are limited largely to the matrix.)

And Sendaz, from a friend of mine who was at the last GenCon to witness this is the fourth line in my signature.

Oh, TJ, don't forget these...

Complex Forms:
Infusion Of [Matrix Attribute] - Level +1
Diffusion Of [Matrix Attribute] - Level +1

Spell:
Increase [Attribute] - Force -3

Those two complex forms are much more limited in scope than the spell, and as technomancers aren't devices they can't even target themselves (or each other) with those two complex forms to try and buff themselves.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 4 2013, 06:35 PM

With a lot of TLC, TMs can synergize modestly with drones. They can purchase an RCC and slave the drones to that to provide the Noise, Autosoft Sharing, and Firewall protection. They can stiill send orders to the drones using Send Message as the Owner of the drone. They can defend their drones from being marked in the matrix and fight off hostile deckers.

That's all the positive. Then it starts sucking immediately.

1) Why bother? Most drones explode into beautiful fireballs when they catch a stray round from a Streetline Special.

2) Since they are almost certainly in the Matrix as an LP, they presumably can't send messages through the RCC to multiple drones as once.

3) Want to Erase MARKs placed by an enemy decker? Go right ahead, but note that it is considered a Matrix Attack action and thus starts your OS count (one of the main reasons for being a TM in the first place).

I've built a TM. I'd love to try him out, but I can't help but think he is going to be unconcious within the first 15 minutes of the game.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 4 2013, 06:41 PM

just checked, and it turns out you can default on hacking tests in SR5. they may not be very *good* at getting marks on things, but if the target is weak enough (say, a DR 2 device that is not slaved to something better) then a decent rating machine sprite will actually have a roughly even chance of getting a mark. of course, a better way would be to spoof (or, if you're feeling optimistic about your ability to soak fading, use puppeteer) a mark on behalf of your machine sprite, then let it take over from there. or rather, it would be a better way if machine sprites didn't also suck at performing most tasks through a device.

i'm not saying machine sprites didn't get nerfed or anything... i'm just saying that they can still potentially control a device. poorly.




as it happens, "device" complex forms can also be used on personas; page 252, resonance library "A complex form with a Device target can also be used to target a persona". (and no, i don't have any idea why it would make more sense to put that absolutely critical piece of information into a paragraph that you're fairly likely to skip over reading than to just put that into the heading of each complex form, which as far as i can tell have plenty of room for it).

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 4 2013, 06:46 PM

You know, I even made the effort to go to that part of the book in the PDF and then promptly forgot to check and presumed that Cybercombat and Hacking were No Default skills. LOL. Hmm.. so I wonder if not having any Pilot Skills would increase your sprite's chances of driving a Roto-Drone into the ground? "I'm going to attempt a loop-de-loop."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 06:46 PM

Indeed... Forgot about those.
Yes, not being able to buff themselves with the CF's is stupid in my opinion, but what can you do?

EDIT: Thanks, Jaid , for that information... At least the CF is now functional for a Technomancer, it is just that its Fading is still way too high to be really useful. *shrug*

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 06:50 PM

Okay, so like I thought when I first went through the Matrix section (and yes, stupid; why not say "Target: Device or Persona"?). But still, using a complex form to now improve a limit while taking a -2 DP to all actions is worse than before when threading could actually improve your abilities in the matrix. Only advantage I can possibly see is Infusion Of Attack the turn before you perform a Data Spike.

The Improve [Mental Attribute] spell cast by a friendly (and trustworthy?) magician is still a lot better than the technomancer's reciprocal complex form.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 4 2013, 06:57 PM

I guess you could get a sprite to sustain it, but this is objectively worse than the spirit version (Registered Sprites sustain for the same length of time as Summoned Spirits. Compiled sprites can't even do it). Then there's the rather karma expensive Focused Concentration.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 4 2013, 09:00 PM

Focused concentration would work as well. I'll point out while I still think it is a bit too high the spell versions improve/decrease actual attributes not limits directly. Not that great for the increase side but decreasing a targets attack by 2-3 will cripple them in a fight.

I sill think that overall they are very playable. 90% of what the decker does will be handled by skill+attribute rolls with maybe a +2 for a program. The technomanver has all that except probably the program(and maybe another die) though chances are his limits will be a point or 2 worse and getting even worse as the decker beefs up his deck. Yeah they wont protect the teams devices and they can't rig until later(though with how much decks cost I don't think there will be that many starting decker/riggers in the game. And sure they lost some stuff from 4e, but big deal the comparison should stay in 5e vs deckers. Now complex forms need to drop in drain I agree because there extra tricks need to be useful to make up for the loss of a few dice. But they can erase overwatch with is pretty damn awesome and while sprites may not be as awesome as 4e they still look to be damn useful.

I mean were they supposed to be as good as deckers with some extras thrown on, or better than deckers with extras thrown on? They do have extras and to be balanced they have to be a bit worse than deckers in some areas. This isn't 4e where decking is easily done as aside job, it pretty much takes all of your resources to be ether a decker or technomancer so the technomancer can't be just flat out better at decking anymore. It might not be perfectly balanced, but deckers seem a bit better at the majority of tests they will encounter but the technomaner picks up a bag of tricks to try and balance it out.

Admittedly I;m looking at just the decking section as I have not built one yet and we don't have one in our game but while they seem to be a bit under powered compared to deckers I don't think they suck as hard as people seem to be making out.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 09:26 PM

Technomancers are interesting to be sure, Shinobi, and are pretty useful, depending upon build. But Yes, their Fading needs to come dow to allow them to actually use their abilities.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 09:39 PM

In SR4 I think they were supposed to be equal to hackers. While technomancers spent karma to improve their matrix abilities and could expand a little into other areas, hackers could write better programs for hacking and more easily expand into other avenues.

SR5... Well, again, my signature's 4th line.

And maybe if the Infusion had the added effect of bolstering a technomancer's actual attribute for the purposes of Matrix tests alone, maybe, just maybe, the drain might be worth it.

Posted by: DMK Sep 4 2013, 10:06 PM

The amount of Karma sink the Living Persona can be is somewhat astonishing. Looking at my http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12493.0, I'm starting out with a pretty decent Living Persona "Deck": Firewall 7, Sleaze 5, Data Processing 5, Attack 5. It's roughly equivalent to a Sony CIY-720 although the Deck gets bonus points for Attribute reassigns & programs.

If I were to devote all my karma to nothing but Living Persona improvements right from the get go, it would cost me a grand total of 353 Karma:

90 Karma to raise Logic, Intuition & Charisma to 6 each.
75 Karma to raise Resonance to 8.
188 Karma to Initiate 8 times, taking the four LP improvement Submersions twice each.

At the end of it all, he'd have Firewall 9, Sleaze 8, Data Processing 8, Attack 8. And the Decker who started at the same time could use 285 of that Karma to raise the Hacking skill group from 6 to 12... and might have bought or built a Fairlight Excalibur that comes darn close to matching the LP.

(Naturally, driving all your Karma into one area like this is an extremely unlikely proposition. I myself will probably devote my first Submersion (if I ever get to play) to Overclocking. I think many (maybe most) TMs would do the same. It's a fun intellectual exercise though. )

Posted by: Jaid Sep 4 2013, 11:46 PM

as has been demonstrated in other threads on these forums, a well-built decking adept makes a technomancer look like a joke; it's more than a few dice ahead (just a regular decker isn't quite as far ahead at chargen, but is still probably noticeably better). and it's not just the dice pool increases for programs that are important... a decker can very easily boost their attack high enough to smash devices in a single shot (especially if the decker has a mark or two), or to just utterly wreck a person using either form of simsense... a technomancer cannot pull that off until they've submerged a time or two.

a decker can hit two things at once. a technomancer? not a chance, until they submerge.

and then there's the versatility. a decker can easily change a deck around with a single free action to suit whatever is needed (cost of 50 nuyen per configuration desired... until you just break the copy protection and then it's 50 nuyen once for as many as you want). a technomancer can't switch anything, and likely has lower deck attributes as well (7/5/5/5 isn't bad, but it's not really equivalent to the sony CIY-720, because you can easily swap the low matrix attributes to be whatever isn't important at the time).

not to mention the decker has a much easier time of it when it comes to spending attribute points. a decker needs high logic, and intuition and willpower are nice but not required to be huge. a technomancer needs all of those high because a 3 vs a 5 is not just a 2 die difference in dice pool, it's a 2 hit difference in limit, and it's likely going to cause some really major problems if they have it that low.

then, on top of that, augmentations. a decker can get them without giving up much. if you manage to get your hands on a used set of wired reflexes or a nice cyberlimb, go ahead and have them installed. for a technomancer, that's cutting into their already limited ability to function in the matrix.

technomancers needed to be toned down as compared to where they were in 4th edition, it is true. but it wasn't even remotely a good idea to scale them down to below deckers in almost every area, and then leave them with all the drawbacks as well.

what it really feels like is that technomancers were not so much deliberately targeted, as that they got caught in the crossfire and nobody was checking in on them constantly to see how they were doing as compared to other archetypes... more like someone nerfed them, and was thinking "we'll playtest and then come back and check later" and then they just never got around to the "come back and check later" portion of the plan, and then when the book was released deckers had gotten buffed to be useful, but technomancers are... well, they can be made to work, but nowhere near as well as a decker, basically.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 5 2013, 05:35 AM

We should rename this thread as the Technomancer Support Group.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 5 2013, 05:38 AM

TMA (Technomancer Anonymous)- Hi, I'm Bob, & I'm a technomancer, & I feel like my role has been usurped by these damnable Decker's "They took er jerbs"

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 5 2013, 05:42 AM

"Hi, I went by the name 'Twitch' in the shadows, and I'm a technomancer. Now my job's been outsourced to a decker in New Delhi at a tenth the nuyen I used to be paid."

Posted by: Rubic Sep 5 2013, 05:49 AM

Hi, my name is PANic. Well... just Nic, now. I was a street urchin with a bit of extra oomph, that let me survive off of vending machines. I started to think I had a chance to work my way up to something better than scaving, but... well... I guess there's still the vending machines...

Posted by: Jaid Sep 5 2013, 06:50 AM

heh. let's not get quite so overdramatic

there's a world of difference between "not as good as the best" and "not good enough to function".

honestly, with a few key changes, they get to be not bad at all. no oversight on complex forms may not be worth a huge amount, but if the fading on them wasn't so bloody ridiculous, it would still be a pretty nice benefit. and sprites may not do as much as they once did, but they're also free (once you have the skills, i suppose), which can't be said for much else in this edition.

but yeah, they really should have taken more time to look at technomancers. fix the fading values, and imo introduce a new complex form that lets you emulate programs, 1 per level of the CF, with a fading value high enough to realistically keep starting technomancers at about 3-4 complex forms (i'd say +1 or maybe +2 would do the job), and while i would certainly hesitate to say that technomancers would be strong, that *would* go a long ways towards making them pretty close.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 5 2013, 06:56 AM

Well here is a question, is the amount of Fading hike roughly the same across the board for the various abilities?

I mean would dropping the Fading by 2-3 bring them pretty close to their magical equivalents to serve as a baseline adjustment?

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 5 2013, 01:53 PM

Well, they range from (F-3) for Transcendent Grid to (F+4) for Puppeteer.

Transcendent Grid's FV seems more like bookkeeping than anything else. It's pretty much urging you to thread it at a minimum level of 5 since you're facing the same FV from 1 to 5 (all assuming you have a Resonance of 6). Net hits results in a longer duration and there isn't really any reason not to just thread it again when the time is up.

Then there's Static Veil. It's (F-1), but there is very little reason to thread it highter than Level 1 or 2 as the CF is based on hitting a threshold of 1 or 2. Really, the only reason to thread it at a higher Level is to get net hits to resist someone trying to Kill your CF. Does that happen often in games? It seems like it would be on the same frequency as decompiling sprites. I guess if you're playing a heavy TM or Resonance based game you might see it.

Resonance Veil seems far more powerful than Resonance Spike, but has a lower FV.

In the end, I think you have to look at them individually and adjust.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 6 2013, 05:49 AM

Back on topic,
Hi, my name is Maximillion, but you can call me Max. I was once referred to as "The" preeminent Dronomancer from the CAS, in a Shadowfacts™ Blogisode . Now I get a headache if I even think about touching the Resonance and my Doberman is a rusted heap, leaking oil in the corner of my squat.