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Posted by: Quake Aug 24 2013, 06:11 PM

Hey there,

In 4th Edition it was quite popular to put together Adepts that had a mixture of both Cyber-Bio-ware and Adept powers. Now, 5th Edition has changed some parameters, but overall some powers got cheaper, others got more expensive, and we now have Qi Foci. Despite all that, it doesn't seem like putting 'ware in Adepts is going away anytime soon.

I was wondering about the best way to do it, in a Karma-friendly and Essence-friendly manner.

It used to be a good tactic to buy 2 magic, then lower it to 1 with 'ware and then increase it back to where it was using Karma (at a lower cost). It can be done in 5th, freeing a precious priority choice higher up, right? Is it still doable (AFAIK, yes).

What are the better 'ware options to pick up?

It seems like stuff like Reflex Recorders are pretty Essence friendly compared to equivalent Adept powers (even if Basic or Used).

Any good builds have crop up?

Posted by: Raiden Aug 24 2013, 06:23 PM

bioware, I NEVER used cyber in my adepts. unless it a more power build mental exercise. reflex recorders, muscle toner, (expensive now). platelet fact. sleep regulator, (3 hours of sleep at any time through a 72 hour period? yes please) much more, but it all depends on what type of adept you want to be.

Posted by: Shemhazai Aug 24 2013, 06:24 PM

Can you buy the power points only at chargen? If so, then you won't be able to raise them when you raise your Magic from 1 to 2. You'll only be able to do it by initiating.

Posted by: Dolanar Aug 24 2013, 06:34 PM

for Adepts, you don't buy points at chargen, thats only the Mysad. An Adept gains PP equal to their magic rating at char gen, they also gain 1 PP when they raise their magic & either a PP or a Metamagic when they initiate. So an Adept that has a Magic of 8 & an initiation rank of 3 has 11 PP (unless they picked up a metamagic)

Posted by: Samoth Aug 24 2013, 06:51 PM

You can do this of course.

The problem with making an augmented adept is that the priority system restricts your freedom. I've made a couple characters like this as trials and can't really do what I want with them entirely due to the priority restrictions.

As for what ware to take, Muscle Toner/Augmentation, Reaction Enhancers, Reflex Recorders, Platelet Factory and Internal Air Tank are all great options for losing less than 1 magic. The problem you will quickly run into is that it is extremely difficult to get the nuyen to actually buy these things without gimping yourself elsewhere. I've had some success with Attributes A, Nuyen B, Race C (all special points to Edge), Magic D and Skills E but I haven't played these characters yet. Another issue is that I have a ton of money left over with nothing I want to spend it on thanks to the set Nuyen levels.

The next question is what you think you can really do with 1 magic. Without any IP boosters, a good setup in my opinion is Adrenaline Boost 1, Combat Sense 1, Improved Accuracy (Weapon Skill). With the right attribute setup you can start at 10-11 initiative before Reaction Enhancers, and pretty much always hit the 16 Initiative hump if you use Adrenaline Boost.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend going down this path until alternate build systems are available.

Posted by: Makki Aug 24 2013, 10:19 PM

Priority D -> Magic 2
loose one point off Essence -> Magic 1
10 Karma -> Magic 2
(15 karma -> Magic 3)

potentially a lot of room to grow in any direction

Posted by: kerbarian Aug 24 2013, 10:44 PM

That's not much more karma-efficient than just initiating for all your post-chargen power points. And coming out of chargen with only 1 Essence of cyber/bioware and only 1 power point of abilities seems fairly weak for an adept.

Though I suppose you could play a character who's focused in a different area (e.g. face or decker) who also has room to grow as an adept, and you only have to spend priority D for that.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Aug 24 2013, 11:08 PM

Edited due to later posts.

Mea culpa.

Posted by: Tycho Aug 24 2013, 11:47 PM

Magic Max is always Essence, so it is perfectly legal

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 24 2013, 11:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect though.

Page 66 states "Note for most metatypes the maximum rating for Magic, Resonance and Edge is 6"

There's no indication that the points spent in Steps 1 and 3 on Magic or Resonance set a new "max" for Magic or Resonance (or atleast none that I can find).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 24 2013, 11:55 PM

Your assumptions on Magic are completely wrong. Maximum Magic is 6 in CharGen (7 with Exceptional Attribute). Initiation raises the Maximum Magic Rating by its Grade.

If you only put 2 points in Magic at the Start, your Stats are 2/6 for Magic. Lose a Point of Essence for Ware, and that becomes 1/5. In the Karma section of CharGen, you spend all 25 points into Magic, that makes it 3/5. Once Play Starts, Initiations raise that Limit by 1 (for Maximum Magic) per Initiation, until you hit 3 Initiations (Maximum Initiations equal Magic Rating, at which point you would have Stats 3/8), at which point you raise your Magic and Then initiate. Ad Infinitum.

Posted by: Isath Aug 24 2013, 11:57 PM

The starting maximumfor Magic is 6, with the exeption of the "exeptional attribute (magic)" quality.

Edit: OK a little late

Posted by: Smash Aug 25 2013, 12:10 AM

This is the benefit of the priority system in my eyes.

Posted by: Raiden Aug 25 2013, 12:37 AM

restrictions in mine

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 25 2013, 04:08 AM

Why is the inability to realize a character concept a benefit? I am truly Curious.

Posted by: Smash Aug 25 2013, 07:41 AM

Because the trade-off between magic and tech should actually be something you need to think about and almost not worth doing. This seems to be delivered by priority stems stopping people start with high magic, and large amounts of tech.

Posted by: Surukai Aug 25 2013, 10:12 AM

I did a test orc with lvl 3 reflexes (Requires magic 4) and a cyber arm (orc) with Strength 8+3 and Agility 6+3, cyber spurs, a cyber gun and +1 armor

Cost is just 1 essence and you get a good arm that stabs people for 14P AP -2 with a nice dicepool of 9 + 6 +(2 spec) without breaking a sweat. Dunno if you can add critstrike and other goodies to it but your lethality of that is amazing. Agility 9 and effective strength 11 makes any one handed weapon dangerous!

In all, to get 4 magic for 3 levels of fat initiative has been very attractive since SR4

But, it works in reverse too, you can get lvl 2 synaptic booster for 1 power point (lost essence) (costs 2.5 pp to get the 'real' way, freeing up a full 5 PP for other nice powers while rocking good initiative. That too worked painfully well in SR4 and seem to work almost as good in SR5.

Cybered adepts seem to be just as good as before!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 25 2013, 03:16 PM

And yet that has absolutely nothing to do with the realization of a Concept. The system is not granular enough to cover many of the concept that I prefer, because the numbers do not cover the middle ground. I prefer mid range powerful characters, and those are very hard to do well, because the numbers just do not work out that way in Priority.

Posted by: Raiden Aug 25 2013, 06:06 PM

its the "everything has a price" mentality of 5th coming out right there, good in some ways, bad in others.

Posted by: Lusis Aug 26 2013, 02:26 AM

Here's my take on the cyber-adept:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3wwhykcwrbc3mnw/Shadowrun%205%20-%20Lusis%20Standard%20Rulesv2.xls

I played him once, but his lack of non-combat skills was a bit of a drag.

Posted by: Voran Aug 26 2013, 08:09 AM

I'd say its cheaper both in terms of essence hit, to not go with reflex booster type stuff, using your magic background instead. If a mystic add, thats the adept powah + a spell anchored. Maybe +agility bioware muscles? Eye stuff can potentially give you alot of bang for your buck.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 26 2013, 07:12 PM

Which, in my opinion, is a shame. Forcing the "everything has a price" mentality is the worst form of game design I can imagine. *shrug*

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 26 2013, 07:28 PM

It is especially bad for the princes, sort of makes them.... common.

But yeah the Cost is a tough one to balance.

If you have the luxury of a long term campaign capable GM you can pay the costs overtime, just look at what a potential maniac who keeps implanting cyber gradually over time while initiating can achieve, but it is a serious cost for that Concept.

But for shorter campaigns you will barely scratch your potential toward being able to build that Concept so they want something that comes pretty close coming out of the gate.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 26 2013, 08:29 PM

I claim sickness for the error... My only defense, actually.



That may be very true. I am very accustomed to very long term character growth, and so, I very rarely worry about short term gains over concept. However, My Ideas for Concept generally set a lower Bar than what some Dumpshockers claim are necessary for a viable character. In SR4A, I am very content to have Skills of 3-4 for my Primary Skill Ratings, with the remaining skills at 1's and 2's. After all, 3's/4's are Professional/Veteran level of capability. That changes to 4's-5's with most skills in SR5, of course, but since I really am not planning on investing much into SR5, I am pretty sure I will not have too much to worry about on that front.

Posted by: PraetorGradivus Sep 10 2013, 04:24 AM

Where in the rules does it say this?


Characters do not have a Magic Attribute
unless they select one of the priorities that specifically
provide one (see the Priority Table, p. 65). Magic
has a starting value from 1 to 6 (or 7 with the Exceptional
Attribute quality), but you don’t have to settle for
that limit forever. You can go through a process called
Initiation (p. 324) that can enhance your abilities.

Notice the part that says limit. If you start with Apapt 2 (Priority D) and don't add to the 2 with Special Attribute Points and or Exceptional Attribute you have a Magic Attribute of 2 and 1 or fraction of Essence loss brings you to MR 1 and an Essence loss of greater than 1 means you are burnt out. Your Magic Rating could go higher with initiation... but you can't just spend karma to raise your Magic Attribute... you spend Karma to raise your Magic Rating- two different things.

Long story short- you want biowar- you might want to make sure that the combination of priority magic pick plus special attribute points dedicated to Magic Attribute puts you higher than the meager 2 in your example.
And if you use the Exceptional Attribute fore Magic , not only do you have to pay 14 Karma for the quality, you have to pay for the increase of the attribute- this is the only time you can raise Magic Attribute by Karma.
So your Adapt 2 would have to pay to initiate and pay the cost of increasing Magic Rating from 2 to 3 to have MR 3.

Posted by: tjn Sep 10 2013, 05:03 AM

Of all the purposefully argumentative and myopic rules lawyering... stop attacking the guy for having a different approach to the game than you, especially when you attempt to beat him over the head with RAW... but RAW disagrees with you.

By the way, it's on page 66:
(Emphasis added).

Furthermore, I did a read through of Spending Your Leftover Karma (page 98) and Character Advancement (page 103). The only limitation on raising attributes on page 98 is the only one attribute can be at the natural attribute limit, and in the Character Advancement section, the only mentioned limit (other than the requisite Karma) to raising attributes is that it takes New Rating x 1 week in downtime.

Then I went to the Magic section, just in case. And under Magic Basics, on page 278 I found this gem, which was right after your quote!

At this point, either you're too stupid to read to the end of the paragraph, or you are intentionally arguing in bad faith and purposefully trying to bend RAW to use it as an attack on a fellow poster.

Or I've been successfully trolled.

Posted by: tjn Sep 10 2013, 06:05 AM

As an interesting aside to my perusal, also on page 278, there's this interesting little blurb:

This means you don't have to do the dance of buying cyber, then increasing your Magic back to two, then buying more cyber, then buying more Magic, etc., etc.

Due to that there are no references to "negative" attributes, and that those who are mundane are given a rating of 0, which would put a floor on the Magic attribute of zero because a character can't be more mundane than the unawakened, the better way to work the heavily cybered adept or burnout mage is grab the lowest level priority for your magic "class," load up to knock your Essence down to where you want it, and then spend your finishing touches Karma to get back to two or three (or four, if you grab the max disadvantages and devote all fifty potential Karma to the Magic attribute: 5+10+15+20=50).

I'm thinking of trying this out, probably with a D priority Adept, and see if this interpretation would be broken (in my opinion). And while I haven't seen any RAW to say otherwise, and while I personally like this interpretation, the following standard boilerplate disclaimer applies: 1. run all potentially controversial ideas past your gamemaster and group as a whole, 2. come to a satisfactory compromise for all involved, 3. don't be a dick.

Posted by: PraetorGradivus Sep 10 2013, 06:46 AM

I made no personal attack- this is a difference in the interpretation of the rules. As always, what one group does doesn't bind another.
Calling someone 'stupid' on the other hand is a personal attack.
Have a Coke and a smile- chill out.

Posted by: tjn Sep 10 2013, 08:19 AM

My apologies if you took personal offense. Perhaps the tone of your previous post was unintended, but by:

1. Attempting to ask a rhetorical question ("What in the rules does it say this?"),
2. Giving directions to the other poster ("Notice the part that says limits..."),
3. Repeating use of the word "you" and coming across accusatory,
4. The use of "long story short" implies a glossing over of details that you couldn't be bothered to expound upon, and
5. Implying that he is wrong in stating the limit of the magic attribute through an appeal to RAW,

You come across as very patronizing. Any one of these by themselves might not effect that tone, but together, even if unintended, your post was an attack.

Further, there is no "difference in the interpretation." The RAW is explicit. If you wish to make your "interpretation," your house rule, go wild. However please realize it is just that, a house rule, and not RAW and should not be used as a basis for an appeal to RAW to prove your argument.

My addendum was frankly inspired by my incredulity, because either you literally stopped reading in the middle of a paragraph, without going on to ascertain the full context of the passage that you were quoting, or you intentionally omitted it. The first option, I honestly have a hard time in believing, as I doubt a reasonable person would use a quote as "proof" in an online debate, without reading the surrounding area as an attempt to CYA, because no one likes being called out as wrong. It is because of this, that I used the word "stupid" in hyperbole as I find it hard to conceptualize someone just not caring enough to finish reading the paragraph. If someone truly does make a habit out of not finishing paragraphs in mid thought, and perhaps it is judgmental of me, but I would think that perhaps their mental acuity is not the best. My apologies.

The second option is truly what prompted my edit. Because I feel the unintentional omission of the very next sentence in the paragraph quoted is unlikely in the extreme, the only other option is that the omission was intentional. Unfortunately, it is this option that, especially on Dumpshock, I find to be highly likely. Dumpshock members like to argue, and they like to be right. So I find that an intentional omission in the service of being right on Dumpshock, sadly, is to have a far higher likelihood than the alternative. Additionally, your attempt to backpedal and state that your claim is only one "interpretation" of many after being proven wrong, and after you took the other member to task for his/her own "interpretation," further supports the implication that you would rather be right than to acknowledge facts that indicate otherwise.

Now the tone of the message berating a user for being wrong, plus the high likelihood of the foreknowledge that the accuser him/herself is actually in the wrong when they go about said beration, offends my sense of fairness. Perhaps I should have sighed and moved on without posting, but I didn't. However your response at being called out, after calling out Tycho, got under my skin (obviously).

You don't get to cast stones at someone and then yell "no fair" when you receive the same treatment in return.

I think I'll get that coke now.

Posted by: Voran Sep 10 2013, 08:28 AM

For the concerns of the magic/initiation superscores, consider that unless you're a dwaaaaaagon and have bullshit for needing to stick with game mechanics, the price is really expensive, even with group initiation reductions. We're talking months (in real life) worth of game sessions and runs to reach the hundreds of karma you'll be needing. If we go by missions, which seemed to run around what 10-12 karma for good jobs, that's quite alot of gaming weekends.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 10 2013, 11:17 PM

Really? we're lucky to get 6-7 karma for a weekend's gaming.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 11 2013, 12:11 AM

Actually, dances are now half price. You can lower to 0 and keep buying up to 1 for 5 Karma each time.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 11 2013, 12:49 AM

Why not do it all at character creation? Take priority D adept. Buy 5 essence worth of 'ware. In the last step of character generation, buy 1 point of Magic (your Magic maximum is currently 1) for only 5 karma. Pretty good deal.

And this makes me think of something that seems to be currently allowed by RAW but a bit absurd: initiate for 13 karma, buy a second magic attribute point for 10 karma (your Magic maximum has gone up to 2 during initiation), and you have a starting character with 3 power points and 5 essence worth of 'ware at the total cost of 28 karma. Take for example resources A, skills/attributes B/C, adept D, race E and you have a damn incredible power build

Posted by: Falconer Sep 11 2013, 01:11 AM

Chrome because the rules for essence loss don't work like that chargen or not. It was this way in SR4 and I'd be utterly shocked if it's not in the book for SR5. I don't have the SR5 book yet to check though...


SR4 you cannot buy it back with karma not even in step 5 as you just suggested. If the Magic attribute is 0 it simply cannot be bought up ever again, it's gone, lost forever. To retain magical abilities... said character would need 6 magic... so he'd still have 1 left after the augmentation.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 11 2013, 01:37 AM

As previously quoted, p. 278:

My understanding is that "you can still raise the attribute with karma". It does not say anything about buying back for all the lost essence, or having a negative magic attribute or any such thing. It talks about maximum magic however, and that would still be 1 after you are down to 1 essence. So you would still be allowed to raise your magic to 1, which is your current maximum, and "get back to the spellslinging". Please enlighten me (with 5e material) if you think I got this wrong.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 11 2013, 01:51 AM

@Falconer,

Unfortunately, Chrome is correct (to be clear, it isn't anything against Chrome - he is spot on with what the book says, it is unfortunate that the rule is written that way).

Hopefully this will be addressed in the Magic book, as the ability to do this is just silly - you should not be allowed to drop your Magic Attribute below zero without any consequences, even if your Maximum Magic Attribute is higher.

However, the way it is written you can do this.

Posted by: Falconer Sep 11 2013, 02:05 AM

Wow, just wow...

A mage can still burn out... provided that they set the maximum initiate grade to magic in the rules. Because then Magic 0 would mean a loss of all initiate grades. So no essence 0 + 1 initiate grade max magic non-zero shenanigans.

Then what he said is true... get the lowest possible magic grade and you have a burnt out char (or a 'latent awakening' char).

Posted by: Quake Sep 11 2013, 02:13 AM

The topic seems to have turned into a very specific (and heated?) debate. If I may re-ask the earlier questions:

"What are the better 'ware options to pick up?

It seems like stuff like Reflex Recorders are pretty Essence friendly compared to equivalent Adept powers (even if Basic or Used).

Any good builds have crop up? "

I was thinking of picking the following 'ware:

• Muscle toner R4 Beta
• Platelet factories Delta
• Pain editor Alpha
• Smartlink Delta
• Titanium Bone Lacing Delta
• Reflex recorder (x2: Automatics and Sneaking) Alpha
• Sleep regulator Alpha

425100 nuyens, 2 ESS

Or rather (for much cheaper):

• Smartlink Delta
• Reflex recorder (x1: Automatics) Std
• Plastic Bone Lacing Delta
• Platelet factories Alpha
• Pain editor Std
• Sleep regulator Alpha

126800 nuyens, 0,99 ESS

Has anyone tried making "tank" bioadept builds also?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2013, 02:38 AM

We get ~two per session until the Run is over, and then we get what the run is worth (Primary GM)
For the secondary GM, we get from 3-5 usually, with any remaining Run awards at the end of the run.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 11 2013, 02:57 AM

You're right, back on topic

Well, your choices are very nice. I would also consider only a subset, say muscle toner, smartlink, platelet, to keep the essence cost to 1 at most. If you are looking for valid character generation sets of 'ware, you'll have to revise your suggestion, as the best grade available at chargen is alphaware, as I've recently found out.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 11 2013, 03:02 AM

Yeah, aside from the Grade, some of that stuff is totally out due to availability restrictions.

"I'm looking at you Mr. Pain Editor! Why do you have to be so unavailable?"

Posted by: Quake Sep 11 2013, 06:32 AM

Yeah, this is clearly *not* a chargen set of ware.

I was wondering if the Pain Editor should be considered a staple (or a kind of mandatory item) of any combatant. I mean, it really does seem like quite the liability to fall for stun damage, since high armor leads to most damage being stun.

Also, there does seem to be a nice synergy between platelet factories, pain editor and high armor: since only half stun damage is converted to physical once the track is full, if you are still conscious because of the PE, then platelet factories cancels out stun damage at a pretty good ratio. 3 stun becomes 2 physical (rounding up), which is then reduced by 1. For 4 stun, it gets reduced to one physical damage. Having this whole set makes for a pretty good bioadept tank that's hard to kill except with assault canon rounds, and since dodging is very good with Combat Sense and Imp. Ref. it seems like a good defensive combo overall.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 11 2013, 06:54 AM

For a character generation legal alternative, consider adrenaline pumps. Those things are seriously good in 5th, though hardly flawless.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 11 2013, 11:06 AM

I agree it is very strong. It does involve a lot of expensive 'ware and surgeries though. If you want to plan the long term though, a nice set to be sure.

Where I'm getting confused is how 3 and 4 damage become 1. The order in which the reductions take effect is not clear to me.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 11 2013, 11:38 AM

I see. Not permanently burning out lets you go "negative" and then back to Magic 1 in one cheap step. Then go for the best of both worlds as you initiate to get power points and metamagic while minimizing investment in Magic rating.

Posted by: DireRadiant Sep 11 2013, 05:36 PM

Warnable offense.

Please read the Terms of Service.

Posted by: Quake Sep 11 2013, 08:11 PM

1. If your stun monitor is filled (and you're still conscious, thanks to PE), damage goes to the physical monitor at a ratio of 2 Stun = 1 Physical (rounding up, I suppose).
2. Platelet factories (PF) reduces physical damage by 1 if damage is 2 or above.
3. Thus, damage from stun transfered to physical becomes physical, and is thus affected by PF.
4. Stun damage is always still received as stun, even if the stun track is filled, so if you have a lot of armor, a lot of stun is getting converted into physical (2 Stun = 1 Physical) and a lot of it is getting reduced further by 1.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 11 2013, 09:45 PM

Thanks for the explanation. Very ingenious.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 11 2013, 10:27 PM

Holy crap, I think mages can do this.

Posted by: PraetorGradivus Sep 11 2013, 11:43 PM

My view on MA and Chargen aside... let's assume, and you all are probably right, that your Maximum Attribute 6 even if you only leave chargen with 3 Magic.

If you take 4 ESS of Cyber/Bio you are dropping that Maximum Magic Attribute from 6 to 2 while dropping your rating from 3 to 0...
Without initiation, that character can only spend karma to get to 2 Magic as that is now his maximum.

BTW, whatever a Samurai can do an Adept can do better.
As far as what to put in the Adept... synaptic boosters are a better buy than improved reflexes assuming you have the money...1.5Ess (2Magic) vs 2.5 Magic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2013, 11:54 PM

Well... Assuming that Geasa and Ways make a comeback, that comparison no longer holds. Rating 3 Increased Reflexes is then 1.75 Magic with Geasa and a Way (Assuming Stackability), vs. 2 Magic with Synaptic Boosters.
Not so bad now.

Of course, assuming you can get Delta-Grade Boosters, the 1.5 becomes .75, and we are down to a single point of Magic sacrificed. Hmmmm.........

Posted by: PraetorGradivus Sep 12 2013, 12:30 AM

I'm only going on what's available at the moment... in previous editions (mostlySR3) I used geasa a lot

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 12 2013, 12:41 AM

I remember one player who had character that always wore a favourite pair of namebrand denim pants when on a run, claiming he worked better magic while wearing them.

No matter how beat up, bled on and bleached by a variety of nasty reasons, that piece of growingly tattered and repatched apparel became quite significant to him, to the point he actually had problems working his mojo on laundry day while they were in the wash.

The brand?

I thought that would have been obvious.

They were Gueassa Jeans. ;P