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Posted by: Nawara Aug 27 2013, 03:34 AM

Hi there, long time lurker first time poster and all that. Forgive me if this is a stupid question.

My character concept (Former Corporate Johnson/Social Adept) more or less requires a Corporate SIN. But as a relative newcomer to Shadowrun, I'm trying to figure out what exactly makes a Corporate SIN so terrible (-25 points). A National SIN (-5) or a Criminal SIN (-10) seem to carry more drawbacks in a lot of ways, since all the megacorps and governments have access to your biometrics and such if you get arrested. With a Corporate SIN, there's only one megacorp out there that does. It seems like the smart choice would be to just avoid doing runs against that one mega.

Sure, the book says that there's strong, violent prejudice against people who are known to have Corporate SINs, and nobody ever really trusts them, but...

1.) There's strong, violent prejudice against half the character types in the book. So it's not that unique.

2.) What smart runner ever really trusts anybody?

3.) How is anyone on the street ever going to know you have one if you just turn it off and broadcast a high-quality Fake SIN instead? It's not like your biometrics are on file in a readily accessible place.

4.) The biggest downside, really, seems to be that you're a walking extraction target if a random crew figures out who you are and decides you have secrets. But, hell, that seems fairly mild in comparison to other drawbacks that give fewer Karma back. It's not like being a Shadowrunner is that safe of a profession, anyway. And if anything, it's cool plot fuel for when the GM gets bored.

The obvious answer is that it is a really terrible, terrible thing, but I just don't get why yet because I don't really get the setting. So explain it to me. Tell me about all the horrible things that a GM is going to do to me if/when I take Corporate SIN.

---

P.S. While I'm at it, what skills are required/recommended for a former Corporate Mr. Johnson now working as a Face? I was thinking about having him be a former associate counsel for one of the megacorps' internal security divisions, so I was going to max out Law, Corporate Security, Shadowrun Techniques, a second language (not sure which), Con, Etiquette, Negotiation, Perception, Intimidation, and Computer. Adept-wise, I was thinking about Astral Perception, Enhanced Perception, Kinesics, Spell Resistance, and Voice Control. Anything I should be sure to add, whether at high or low levels? Also, which corp would make for a good former employer? And should I consider taking the one-point Essence/Magic hit to get some augmentations like Tailored Pheromones or something combat-oriented?

Thanks!

Posted by: SpellBinder Aug 27 2013, 03:43 AM

1: Maybe, but some places are worse than others, and some are better. Having a corporate SIN belonging to Aztechnology is likely to get you killed on sight if you're found out in Denver. In Aztlan, you'll be fine.

3: The average person won't know. A higher level security check, however, can bring up two (or more) profiles for matching biometrics, and you'd better be a damn good actor to remember which name you're supposed to respond to (among other things).

4: Not really a walking extraction target, but you're also not really a deniable asset either. If you're an Ares citizen and you get caught on a run for a Horizon subsidiary you're ass is in a sling two ways to Sunday. Maybe three if you were working against a third megacorporation.

Posted by: Dolanar Aug 27 2013, 03:51 AM

Having a corporate SIN on this level means you weren't some ordinary Wageslave. You were an important part of the corp, & you're not just a part of some piddly corp like an A corp, you were a member of one of the Mega's, that means one of the AAA's like Aztecnologies, or Renraku. You probably had some deep corporate secrets or were privy to conversations that should never leave the confines of a boardroom. That makes you a liability to them, & you NEED to be sorted out, one way or another, the AAA's didn't get big by letting loose ends walk out the door after all.

On a good day, you only have every KE officer or LS dog looking for you, on a bad day, you have the personal armies of the Megacorp you bailed on hunting you, & everyone you've met since you left, down & they are asking questions with Explosive rounds.

Posted by: kerbarian Aug 27 2013, 04:00 AM

I don't understand why the karma is so high for those qualities, either. Sure, they're bad, but a corporate SIN is priced the same as exploding into flames whenever you're exposed to sunlight. It's always possible to justify the price by having the GM be incredibly harsh about it, but that seems to me like an implausible stilting of the game world to justify the karma cost of one or two qualities.

From the descriptions, I would have expected the prices to be more like: 5 karma for a national or corporate limited SIN, 10 karma for a corporate born SIN, 15 karma for a criminal SIN.

Posted by: Goonshine Aug 27 2013, 05:59 AM

Two points:

One,
reread what SpellBinder had to say. Point 4 is quite salient.

The assumption in the game is that sometimes your run is going to get hosed. When security catches you, they can of course just waste you but where is the fun in that? The idea is if you haven't blown up too much stuff or shot too many people on corp property, an enterprising Johnson might stop and pay you a visit and offer to let you go in exchange for a difficult job. This is totally GM discretion but it fits with how the world runs. Why squander an opportunity?

On the other hand, your own Johnson has hired you and your own team has befriended you on the premise that you are, as far as teh system goes, a nobody. Deniable assets, right? But if you get caught on another corporation's turf, things are not gonna be easy for you. It is not "just biz, chummers" at that point. It is corporate war. If you are a nobody you can go back to being a nobody (or a corpse, depending on how they feel). But if you are an Ares corporate citizen, and you are caught deep in a forbidden part of a Renraku facility...well, there are gonna be more than just a few naughty words.

Even a hint of your presence there, like a missed thumbprint, a bit of DNA from hair or blood, is gonna be bad. Sure, Ares might not have immediate realtime access to the records at their opponent megas, but you can bet they have a process to release partial records to one another. So maybe not this run, maybe not the next, but sometime in the next month or so Renraku is gonna get a match to your DNA and that of a registered citizen of Ares, and then it is only a question of which company is going to hunt you down first...Renraku, to ask you a few questions, or Ares, to seal your mouth forever...

Two,
another way you can look at it is the trouble that you will have to go through to get rid of the SIN. If it is a national SIN it is fairly easy (5 karma or equivalent resources, in fact) to get someone to go in and muck up relevant records enough that you are out of the system. But what if everything about your ass is on file in a dozen redundant and heavily secured hosts scattered throughout the world? That will take much, much more effort to erase. If there comes a time when Joe Shadowrunner doesn't want to have that criminal SIN hanging around his neck no more, he is gonna have a much easier time getting rid of it that Joe Corpboy would.

Your character's lifespan might not be long enough to make either option much of a difference, gameplay wise. But the risks are there. For a group whose main selling point is anonymity, a corporate SINNER is very, very bad goods.

If you want to think about it another way, yes, someone with allergy to sunlight will catch on fire if they go outside on a sunny day. It is equally bad for you to be traced to your corporate SIN. The guy with sunlight allergies only has to keep himself indoors most of the time, or at least only go out at night. A corporate SIN is a loaded gun to your head, only you will not know if your friends, your enemies, or your former employers are going to be the ones pulling the trigger.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 27 2013, 06:01 AM

I guess the Devs from CGL wanted ....to "steer" the Gameplay into a certain direction by making some of the neg Quals
more expensive or more.... profitable for a Char than others .
Like they did with the Metavariant cost in SR4 .Some of these could'nt be explained neither but its the same kind of.....arbitrary Pointcost

with a voluntary Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Smash Aug 27 2013, 06:50 AM

Doesn't a corporate SIN imply that you STILL work for a megacorp? Meaning that they are constantly keeping tabs on you and that they will forever be ordering you to do runs for them or at the very least, doing your 9-5 (who are we kidding, this is distopia, 6-9).

I'd imagine that if you had somehow severed your connection with the corporation you'd either have no SIN (had it erased) or have a criminal SIN (therefore you were probably framed and fired). If not then what's mentioned above is true. Expect lots of bad guys to be looking to put you in the dirt.

Posted by: Critias Aug 27 2013, 07:10 AM

I won't talk about the qualities directly since I'm...well...anyways, I won't talk about the qualities directly, because professionalism won't let me. What I will say, though, is just to remind people that they're by no means mandatory. Even if it fits your background to be a former Company Man, military-trained professional, corporate spider, convict, or whatever, remember that the quality isn't necessary to reflect backstory. If you want to have a clean break from your former employers/place of birth, you can just insist you've had a decker take care of things for you and clean things up/cut those ties, or whatever. The qualities are there for those who WANT to still be entangled in their old life in a number of social, financial, and legal ways. Don't feel forced into taking them just because they fit your backstory.

Posted by: Veggiesama Aug 27 2013, 07:36 AM

Corporate SINs suck because of taxes. That said, I don't understand why Corporate Limited (15) carries a 20% tax while the full Corporate (25) carries only 10%.

Posted by: RHat Aug 27 2013, 07:38 AM

Because the corporate rules favour the corporate born. One more way to keep them in.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 27 2013, 09:12 AM

not by RAW
The disadvantage is that if You use it someone might discover that You belong to a corporate and tells it and every Runner hates You (even those that have a corporate SIN too) and that You have to pay taxes.
nobody prevents a Char from getting a fake SIn and using that instead of his Corporate SIN

with a Sinful Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Sengir Aug 27 2013, 09:58 AM

Nope, the character is assumed to have long burnt the bridge: "Then something happened. An unforgivably costly mistake, the machinations of a rival, a supervisor in need of a scapegoat—something pushed the character out of the corporation and into the cold and unforgiving shadows."
Not that this convinces anyone he talks to, because former corp types are so rare in the shadows and mostly traitors, therefore everybody is just waiting to torch them..


To add insult to injury, word from Bull is that this was fully intended and justified by a magical database. Which does not get used to track down people, correlate IDs, or anything else easily possible with such data, it only gets used for taxation. Because fuck you, that's why http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=3768.msg221691#msg221691

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 27 2013, 10:11 AM

Never mess with the tax office . They are badass.

Posted by: Jack VII Aug 27 2013, 12:29 PM

Interestingly, the Corporate Limited SIN doesn't have the same implication. I think there is one reference to no longer working for the Corp, and it's an "Even If" statement. Just weird.

Posted by: nezumi Aug 27 2013, 01:29 PM

Because if you have a NUMBER you're part of the MACHINE, you're being tracked by the MAN, man. You got a collar 'round your neck you just can't shake off.

Hey omae, I wrote a song about it. I'll be playing down at Dante's. Check it out.

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 27 2013, 10:06 PM

You're a born, bred and life'd Corper with the 25pter. You also had (or are assumed to have had) major connections and access to Family Only type information or secrets. This is, in the world of the Shadows, an Albatross around the neck. The Megas are typically despised by the SINless and you didn't Just work for them (thats why the stigma is less at the lower cost, because Runners work for them) you are one of THEM, you know, the People you hate that make your life harder by their actions, inactions or greed. With that flaw you're playing one of Them.

Now, it gets better... Sure you can run a fake SIN in the DataBase. You can hide your identity. But when the SIN you're pinging fails or fluffs, well, your Real SIN is likely to be flagged (true, this is the universal truth of the Flaw) but for the national or minor (Wageslave) Corp SiN that's only likely to get local Security involved (if on a Run maybe launch a minor shadow war) and get you interrogated (or indeed just shot). It also means law enforcement can trace other things you have done and places been (once they start sifting through SIN registry records). But when the BIG one flags, early results are much the same but some Corps may want to interrogate more, worse though is that it's likely that Momma Corp will Ping that a certain SIN has been logged at location X for purpose Y. They will come looking.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 27 2013, 10:28 PM

I think the reason some folk would feel that a Corp SINner is untrustworthy is to them you have a way out, though that is not really true.

Most of the rest are SINless so have no option other than what they can claw for themselves.

Others have burnt their bridges and can't go back.

To the general SINless, it's like a Rich Kid slumming in the Barrens. Yeah it's a hoot for the kiddie daring to rub shoulders with the real baddies, but end of the night they hop back in the limo and off to their vaunted estates. And while they mock them as wageslaves and worse, a part of them also envies the fact they have a steady roof over the head and 3 square a day even if they hate the rest of the ratrace that goes with it.

Granted, most of the ones with the Corp SINs probably can not go back for a variety of reasons, like burnt by the Corp or backstabbing by a department rival, but to the rest it has to look like your slumming and they have to wonder when you will just be whisked away by that chariot back to the promised land even though in truth you can't, unless of course you somehow buy your way back into the Corp good graces. Which probably means everyone thinks you might sell them out to do just that.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 27 2013, 10:51 PM

And then gave them the finger, like so many did before. The Ex-corp [insert profession] has been an established archetype since 1st Edition rules or the Secrets of Power novels, and now they suddenly get run over by the rape train ruleswise and fluffwise turned into outcasts slightly above ghouls. Because why exactly?


Nope, a "reverse lookup" of [biometrics]->[any matching SIN] or [SIN]->[any other SIN with the same biometrics] does not exist. I'd guess this is a meta decision, if one burnt SIN burned every current and future SIN with the same biometrics, the only way for runners to exist would be swapping bodies like in Eclipse Phase. Say they only store hashes in the SIN DB (cryptography gets ignored all the time, why not once more?), or maybe the powers that be simply do not WANT it to be possible for their own ends...
Now, if SINs cannot be connected to each other, even by biometrics, doing it with less uniquely identifying features like monetary transfers obviously would be even more than absolutely impossible. Except for taxes.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 29 2013, 02:40 PM

It does not mean you ARE still working for the corp but you could be. Maybe you are not because you were a bad boy, maybe you still work for them. If you are dealing with a group of street criminals or even A level runners, the fact you were a part of that world and still could be is the social problem. It was something they do not want and the taint lingers.

As an example think of how people responded when they found out the last pope had been a part of the Hitler youth. He was required to join and deserted from the army and was good friends with JP2 who was famous for his opposition to the Nazi so we can say he was clean but people still looked at Benedict and said "remember what he did before..."

So you walk in with your Aztechnology SIN and tell them you left the company, but anyone who has been in the biz long enough will still look at you and wonder if you last name is Johnson.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 29 2013, 09:29 PM

Correction: How people outside Germany and Austria reacted to headlines about Ratzinger having been in the HJ. Over here, the reaction was basically "what else did you expect, stupid?", because (neraly) everybody has ancestry who were in the HJ, NSDAP, or served as a soldier. And given the number of ex-corp types in the shadows (again, since First Edition and the first novels), I'd somehow expect the general attitude to be akin to that

OT: Originally I wrote "everybody knows somebody" instead of "everybody has ancestry". Then I realized I'm getting old...

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 30 2013, 12:21 AM

The excorp types with That kind of SIN since first edition? Six, I think, which is 0.0003% of the runners in Seattle, and that's including Argent (who's a national SIN) and in all but or case that past has come back to be them. Big time.

Posted by: Moirdryd Aug 30 2013, 12:35 AM

Also, when your Fake SIN fails (and burns) I think it's totally reasonable that your Real SIN will flag in the system, it IS a disadvantage after all and that's Part of the disadvantage, plus the reason the Fake SIN fails is a lack of DataMatch, which for most Runners comes back as a blank in the info chain, for a SINner though that isn't a blank anomaly it's data that Does match to the biometric query, retinal scans or even image logs.

Again, it does what the GM and a certain amount of logical reasoning allows. Now the reason that the other FAKE ids don't burn is because the Real SIN will be the only bounce back in the immediate info chain. Of course once someone has your biometric, retinal or image log data they CAN search the Matrix to find your fake SINs, IDs, licences and so forth.

Posted by: Voran Aug 30 2013, 08:13 AM

For the 25 one, the premise appears that you were such highly vetted that you start off with a disturbing amount of personalized data being stored. Until you scrub it, that means there's a shared database with pretty much all your secrets. I'd say its not just biometrics, but psych profiles and the like. So they'd know your preferences, sex habits, food habits, what types of people you'd be inclined to hang out with etc. What do you like to do when stressed, what are your vices, what type of social engineering works best against you, etc.

Posted by: Nawara Aug 30 2013, 06:31 PM

I like this take on it. A lot.

Now to pick a corp... I don't want to do Aztechnology (too evil), Horizon (too fluffy), or Ares (too stereotypical). NeoNET, maybe? How about Evo or Wuxing?

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 30 2013, 11:56 PM

NeoNET are cool. Whenever we steal a helicopter, we do so from NeoNET.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 31 2013, 02:42 PM

A few big names off the top off my head:
- Dirk Montgomery
- Twist
- Talon
- Thor Waldez
- Mercury and the rest of the Draco Foundation
- Sticks
- Rigger-X (I think he was described as ex-MCT in Street Legends)

Remember that the corps control far more than just normal business areas. Ex-military character? Probably served in some corp army (or army corp). Higher education? Corp scholarship or corp university right away

Posted by: Angelone Aug 31 2013, 03:13 PM

My big thing with the 25 point one is that you aren't from the shadows. You are from a corp enclave somewhere, you know their rules, not the rules of the streets. There will be a HUGE learning curve before you get the corp stink off you and just start to fit in.

Edit- You aren't one of the SINless you are prey. Listen to the song "Common People" by Pulp or the William Shatner version.

Posted by: Maelwys Aug 31 2013, 07:49 PM

I have to admit, I don't really see the big deal about having a corporate SIN...atleast not as its defined in the rulebook. I can see a newly outed Corporate having trouble adjusting to life on the street (see Twist, the kid from Just Compensation, etc), as well as having a hard time with contacts (everyone he knew in the corporate life is pretty dead to him, and how likely is he to really know a fixer?).

The 10% as explained is just silly. I'd personally give the player two options. They can ignore the 10%, but the lack of activity on the SIN and the lack of income would have the SIN deactivated as if it were linked to a dead person (see Bandit from Who Hunts the Hunter). Or if you had a Day Job you could pay the 10% out of that, and ignore it for any illegally gained money.

Or you could pay the 10%. This would come out of the runs you do, and would be fluffed as having to launder money, pay a few deckers, etc to make the SIN look like it was upkept and still viable, so the corp wouldn't deactivate it. There wouldn't be much of a data trail, but it would be enough for you to keep the SIN active, incase you ever needed it (or wanted to go back).

The idea of 10% coming out of everything for no reason is sort of silly. I can understand why they wanted to do that, but the fluff reason is just silly.

Likewise some of the fluffy disadvantages from the book are silly as well. "You're hated because you have a corporate SIN and it got out." "Well. based on the fluff from previous novels and what not, sure, people are going to think I'm a newb, and dislike me for being a corporate (See Piper from Fade to Black for a pretty good example of this) But not everyone is, and as long as I don't kill everyone, I should eventually fit in. And really. How is anyone going to find out? If they do, why don't I just tell them its a fake corporate SIN, and that you'd totally hook up the rest of the gang with one, but the decker doing them died the week before to Black IC."

Posted by: Rooks Aug 31 2013, 08:21 PM

Think the flaw is meant to be more of a fish out of water, you dont know how things work on the outside since they lived such sheltered lives etc

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 31 2013, 08:57 PM

And that is a fair point. Everything you have read and watched has been sanitized/redacted/biased by the Corp and makes for a bit of culture shock.

The tax part is interesting when you think about it. You are supposedly burned by your Corp, yet you are still paying taxes which implies you still can access some level of corp benefits , even if it's just claiming corp membership.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 31 2013, 11:37 PM

What the flaw is meant to be is quite obvious in RAW, and it's not just some social awkwardness. What a more sane version might say is another question

Posted by: Voran Sep 1 2013, 12:50 AM

In terms of the flaw, it gives you 25 more points to play with. You can use some of those points to mitigate some of the stuff, I mean its totally logical for a corp type to have etiquette:streetwise or the like if they were an asset for the mega that worked with 'the street'. The 25 point corper doesn't need to be fish out of water, its just that their information is extensive and readily available to their corp.

Now I imagine something like what happens when you fall out of favor or 'betray' something like Scientology. They'll screw with you, they'll discredit you, they'll sue you, they'll pursue you. They've probably been handling your money, your lifestyle, your connections, etc. Now take that, and make it 100x more intense and possible with the resources of a AAA mega.

Posted by: RHat Sep 1 2013, 03:04 AM

You may want to look into who got Capone. If the money can be traced to you as income (and it would, you'd just be laundering it first), you bet your ass the corp tax collectors would be on you for it.

There is, though, a decided lack of mechanical impact given the value of the quality.

Posted by: Maelwys Sep 1 2013, 09:45 AM

Sure, if they can trace it to you, then you can get hammered to it. I don't really have a problem with that. If the player decides to ignore the 10%, then I expect that they're keeping the SIN completely dark. No using it to buy movie tickets, not renting property on it, its just inactive and will eventually get flagged as such.

But the idea that I can do a run using a completely fake SIN (or no SIN) and get paid in certified credit or to the fake SIN, keep it on the fake SIN (or launder it to yet another fake SIN), and it STILL gets tracked back to a corporate SIN which I haven't used in a year, and the only commlink that had the ID on it has been rendered into scrap metal?

Posted by: RHat Sep 1 2013, 09:52 AM

And when that fake SIN gets burned, do you lose all the money associated to it? The rule is written (based on Bull's commentary, at least) from the perspective of "damn, that'd way too much paperwork to make people do".

Posted by: Sengir Sep 1 2013, 02:30 PM

Bringing him up another 52349587234 times won't make the comparison any more fitting. If you desperately need a Mafia analogy, how about this one:
Johnny Torrio, Capone's predecessor, was born in Italy and therefore had an Italian citizenship (in SR terms, a national SIN). After he emigrated to the US, did he still pay taxes to Italy?


...you have a SERIOUS problem. If I know every transaction you made, digitally or not, I'm able to determine every single person you made business with. I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive (free cookie if who know who I'm paraphrasing here ). Why do you think runners get paid in certified cred and not just give Mr Johnson their bank info?

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 1 2013, 02:48 PM

Ironically Torrio also got picked up for tax evasion years later on by the US government, they caught him while he was getting his Passport picked up from the post office.

It is especially ironic as he had warned the mob boys years before to get their taxes straight or this kind of thing would happen.

But yeah, the whole Tax thing is sort of weird for the quality, given how it makes you out to be pariah with the parent corp, so what benefits are there in paying?

Beyond being chased by the Infernal Revenue Service branch of the Corp if you don't of course.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 1 2013, 03:51 PM

I believe that the US IRS has a tick box on your tax return for criminal income so that criminals cannot claim that there was no section appropriate for their income... or something. It's been a while since I heard it, and it could just be an urban legend.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 1 2013, 04:02 PM

Heh, not quite that bad yet.

However in Minnesota they instituted a 'grass' tax for marijuana at one point where you could go in to pay your tax on the maryjane you had, even though this was still illegal to possess.

The best part was the tax office could NOT share those files with the police so the cops could not know who was carrying, but if you did get busted without the tax that was just another charge they could stick to you.

Weird eh?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 1 2013, 04:14 PM

Yes... For the characters that I play with multiple SIN's, if one gets burned, all things associated with it go away. This includes the money (not much) that I keep associated with that SIN. And yes, it is indeed more paperwork, but it is imminently satisfying, at least to me.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 1 2013, 06:34 PM

I actually do it that way too. It kinda threw me off when people said they did it another way.

Posted by: Maelwys Sep 1 2013, 07:30 PM

Presumably yes?

Admittedly, I'm looking at this from a point of view that isn't necessarily Mission-specific. I can understand in missions if they want to keep it as simple as possible, its just that Bull and Missions have the unfortunate luck to publish clarifications and errata for Missions long before anything gets done on the "Main" side of things. So people see what Bull's posting and assume its going to apply to non-missions play as well (or atleast influence their GMs one way or another).

But if you're going to be using your Corporate SIN (CSIN) as a money dump to keep it safe incase your fake SINs get burned, then yes, I'd expect you to be paying the taxes on it since you're actively using the CSIN and there's no getting around it. If you've got stuff thrown on a fake SIN and it gets burned, I'd expect the things on the fake SIN to go away as well (barring a panicked call to a decker/fixer/retirement broker to try to save as much as possible).

Of course, it all depends on what level of detail your GM goes into with when it comes to handling SINs, fake or otherwise.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 1 2013, 11:00 PM

Why are the SINs "layered" quality? To me it indicates that the rules regarding them were unfinished when the book went to print.

Posted by: Iduno Sep 2 2013, 02:55 AM

The taxman, the police, and everyone else wants their cut.

Posted by: Falconer Sep 3 2013, 02:08 AM

Hmm... a lot of these character concepts shouldn't have corporate SIN... they should have 'records on file' (to borrow the SR4 negative quality). They're ex-corp... the corp knows who they are and unless something special happened has their records on file. But they'd lose the corp SIN when they left the corp.


The reason it should be a huge problem for shadowrunners has been brought up... shadowrunners are deniable assets... exactly what is Ares going to think when you're working for S-K and visiting your local Azzie pyramid and leave something tracing it back to them on the scene! It should be a huge problem... and that is the element that needs played up.


For normal SINs... I disagree... the tax element is pretty stupid. Certified cred is for all intensive purposes as good as cash. The certified credstick is a bearer bond tied to a 'black' account... not registered to anyone in name. If I hand the 20k black credstick from John to Suzy... Suzy is now the owner of the 'bearer bond' and the cash in it. The IRS has no idea she's gotten paid at all. No electronic transfer of funds has occured. A credstick (cash) was simply handed from one person to another.

Again the point is I have a credstick with a pre-paid cash balance on it. Handing the credstick to others doesn't move the money it only moves the key to the money. But what can I say in this day and age... many people don't realize that bearer bonds were the norm for a long time (most securities today are 'registered' securities not 'bearer' ones... if someone stole your bearer bond certificates you were in trouble... as that was commercial paper and almost as bad as having cash stolen).



The problem is that now you need to track 'normal' payments and non-normal payments. Plus of course fake sins if you're running income through them. By that notion... EVERYONE should be paying taxes on their fake id's as well! If the normal SIN is getting socked with tax why isn't money going into a fake one?

I'd have to say this is one of Bull's worse ideas. The quality should come back in other ways.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 3 2013, 02:48 AM

I always assumed that part of your SIN's lifestyle costs included a fake income (via your friend the money launderer) and taxes on said income.

Posted by: RHat Sep 3 2013, 07:40 AM

... And this is why money laundering is a thing.



Then it sounds like it makes for a great house rule, but I would argue it would be terrible as a general rule. I imagine you can see the reasons why I'd consider that to be the case?





How's about this: If the character is no longer using their corp-SIN at all, it has withered and died and they no longer qualify for the quality by the time the game starts. Otherwise, it's a question of whether or not you really want to get into tracking what money and assets are associated to what SIN, which isn't gonna be practical for everyone. If you don't, assume all money is taxed, but if you do more power to you. The point of the rhetorical question was largely to try to get across the idea that many tables wouldn't even be tracking that kind of thing, and forcing that bookkeeping into the system could cause issues at some tables.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 3 2013, 10:31 AM

1.) It's not and never has been in SR
2.) Shadowrunning is a cash-in-hand job yet the corps are still trace anything you earn and tax it. How exactly are you going to launder money under such an omniscient monitoring?

@...Falcon....er...

Nope, the corp SIN in SR is supposed to be for ex-Corp peope. You were cast out, yet still pay your taxes.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 01:08 PM

Most definitely... That level of detail is not for everyone. Besides, I really have issues with the 5th Edition version of SINner. I think it was ill thought out, personally. But what else is new, right?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 01:09 PM

Which is pretty stupid if you have been thrown out...

Posted by: Falconer Sep 4 2013, 12:02 AM

Pretty much it TJ....

That's why I don't get Bulls bit at all... someone takes a 5karma sinner quality... (even less points than the old version at 5BP == 10 karma). And it's a huge problem so he's out to dock them 10% of their pay in missions?!

Yet if I take the full -25 corp sin... I pay the same 10% and don't really suffer any other penalties in game for the most part. Really in missions... can you see people outright killing characters because they have a corp SIN? I've never seen it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 12:22 AM

Indeed, I have never seen it. Even with my Corporate Undercover Investigator, creating Dossiers on the Shadowrunners of Hong Kong (and the Surrounding Asian States), The Character was still not in danger of losing his life (though he had made a few enemies, and was on a few lists). Might be because he was very good at covering his tracks (and no one was positive I was the culprit - Was pretty good at diverting suspicion too), or because it was not that big of a deal. Not sure which. Though he was not completely trusted (by his own team) after the reveal that he had been an undercover Knight Errant Investigator. Though in SR4A, SINner was only worth 5 points, and I never actually had the Judas or Deep Cover Qualities (they were not really necessary).

The Taxes thing is just odd... and I agree... I just do not understand Bull's stance.

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 4 2013, 12:42 AM

I still think the Limited Corp SIN is even more weird. +15 karma, the text makes it sound like you still work for the Corp in question (with one line implying that you might not work for them anymore), and you pay 20% as opposed to 10% in taxes. Yeah...

Quick Fix: Roll 1D6 each time the team takes a job. On a 1, it's actually a setup meant to kill/capture the Corporate SINner and his associates. LOL

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 01:27 AM

1: Yes it is.
2: Credsticks.

Posted by: DMiller Sep 4 2013, 02:52 AM

Ditto for our group.

Posted by: Falconer Sep 4 2013, 02:57 AM

It's actually kind of funny... my last missions character took knowledge finance and organized crime and the like specifically for money laundering operations.

Also, for turning corpscrip or registered nuyen into certified cred... there was often a 'fee' just like a money changer would charge. Or some kind of barter needed... turn your money into some kind of commodity... then trade that commodity for something else off the books.

Posted by: RHat Sep 4 2013, 05:55 AM

1) How in the hell would money laundering EVER go away? If anything, it would be bigger and more important.
2) Legitimate-looking infusion of cash to laundering operation followed by perfectly legitimate income to runner's account.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 01:30 PM

Certified Credtsicks... Which are Cash...

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 04:12 PM

Thought certified was the only kind of credstick you could get in the civilized world, as of 2070, with everything that a regular credstick used to hold being dumped onto SR's equivalent of a cell phone.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

Nope... Certified Credsticks are for anonymous transactions.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 04:33 PM

I know that, but what I'm trying to say is why would non-certified credsticks still be available when everything that a regular credstick used to do is now done with a commlink?

Posted by: Daedelus Sep 4 2013, 04:42 PM

Id like to defend Bull's ruling by stating he made it specifically for the Missions campaign. His statement is not meant as a blanket SR5 ruling. the Organized Play model is ill equipped to handle things that require GM knowledge and upkeep when it comes to Drawbacks. His ruling keeps these qualities in play for the missions campaign without turning them into free points without any in game negative effects. Some missions judges will take these into account, but since you cannot control ALL judges there needs to be blanket effects for some things that are imposed by the campaign. This is one of those, and is one of the negative aspects of Organized Play campaigns.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 05:05 PM

Because not all banking is doen with a Comlink.
Even today, there are people who still go to the Bank and deposit/withdraw funds, and refuse to bank online.
So, standard Credsticks are still available for those people who do not want to take the risk of keeping all their financial information on their comlink.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 05:12 PM

Maybe if you're in a feral city like Chicago. Previous material I've read suggests that regular credsticks have gone (or are going) the way of the dinosaur.

The only people I could see trying to use regular old credsticks are those of us that are alive now and might be lucky enough to survive the VITAS plagues to live into the 2070's. Not carrying a commlink runs the risk of you being accused of being a technomancer (They can use the matrix with their brains, so why would they carry one? ).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 05:14 PM

I agree that regular Credsticks are phasing out of circulation. They are just not gone quite yet.
Just because you carry a comlink, that does not mean you bank wirelessly.

Posted by: Slacker Sep 4 2013, 08:05 PM

I just thought of an alternate explanation of the income "tax" for corporate SINs...

If you still work for/with the company, it's a straight up tax. Seems reasonable that the megacorps would tax the wageslave with limited SINs more than their elite executives that were born into the upper ranks of the company, just one more perk of being a born 1 percenter.

However, if you have broken away from the company in some way, instead of an income tax that is being paid to the corp, the money is considered to be what you have to pay to continually have references to you wiped from databases, bribes to get people who recognize you to look the other way, etc. Like it's the minimum required to keep you off the megacorp's radar.

Given the surveillance of the 2070s, the megacorps are likely able to find you if they really want to. So trying to live a life outside of their control is definitely going to come at a cost.

With this explanation, the difference between Limited SIN's tax and full Corporate SIN's tax is that you still have family/colleagues that have enough good will/power to keep the corp from harassing you too much (though that is the limit of what they will do for you unless you also buy them as a contact). Limited Corp SINners don't have that level of ties to the higher ups, so they have to rely solely on what they can afford themselves.

Posted by: Voran Sep 4 2013, 08:15 PM

Presumably its gotten to the point that if you're still using accounts associated with say the Corp SINner, they'll just autodeduct the 'appropriate amounts' at 'appropriate times'. Yknow, for your convenience. And by 'your convenience' I mean, FUCK YOU THAT'S WHY WAGESLAVE, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

And I imagine its much harder to 'opt out' of stuff. Don't you remember the licensing agreement that you signed before you knew how to read which is totally valid under corp law under which this falls?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 08:53 PM

Corps are not going to spend the money to keep track of you if you are no longer their slave... waste of resources.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 4 2013, 08:56 PM

1: [citation needed]
2: If credsticks and other kinds of cash-in-hand were untraceable, shadowrunners with a corporate SIN would not have to worry about taxation. Since any income you have is taxed...

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 4 2013, 09:48 PM

1: Unwired, pages 20 & 93; Spy Games, page 169; Vice, page 18 starts a section titled "Money Laundering", as well as pretty much in every entry on an organized crime syndicate and/or family.
2: Tax evasion is the least of any shadowrunner's worries.

Posted by: RHat Sep 4 2013, 10:02 PM

Today, yes. By 2070? Highly unlikely.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 4 2013, 10:04 PM

I have actually houseruled that ALL taxes are included in your lifestyle costs. I've also assumed that even fake SINs need to pay taxes or get investigated.

Basically, unless otherwise specified all runners launder their lifestyle money through their fixer and have jobs at Frontcompany Inc. which pays them a living wage, from which their taxes are payed. All nice and legal. Runners are trying to stay under the radar in their home lives, so paying taxes and having a regular job (at least on paper) is part of the whole deal.

Naturally, this means that of the money they're spending on lifestyle a bit goes to the tax man and a bit goes to the money launderer (generally via their fixer) but it doesn't really break the game and it makes some sense.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 4 2013, 11:53 PM

I think someone has caught the correct.

Posted by: Critias Sep 5 2013, 12:05 AM

Guys, it's not "Bull's" stance. Bull's the one that posted it (to clarify things for Missions), but it's not like he made the call.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 12:33 AM

And yet, even today, those of us who are not wireless are viewed as odd, yet it does not stop us... I really do not think that this will change in 60 years; as long as there is a market, it will exist, because someone will cater to it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 12:34 AM

Good Point... Apologies to Bull.

Posted by: RHat Sep 5 2013, 12:35 AM

If we're being realistic, people who take that sort of attitude towards this stuff are going to become rarer and rarer until the point comes where it simply isn't practical any more due to the implementations of these systems simply not supporting that kind of thing.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 5 2013, 12:39 AM

You will probably still see some banks offering a live person behind the counter, but you will pay for that service and it won't be common.

Banks have been cutting back on staff more and more, as well as charging for services in-bank to try and encourage more online/ ATM's out front of the bank transactions.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 5 2013, 01:33 AM

I used to work for Bank Of America on their credit card accounts. There was (as of four years ago) an additional USD$5 surcharge for me to take a payment over the phone, while the automated system and online was free. Never had anyone happy about that surcharge.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 5 2013, 01:46 AM

How about money transferred to a credstick gets taxed at the owner's income tax rate, and so does assigning a new SIN as the owner of a credstick? However, just passing a credstick that anybody can use doesn't get taxed.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 5 2013, 03:50 AM

My first complete 5e build (likely to get a bit modded before any actual game play) is a full Corp SINner. Her corp KNOWS she runs; it's part of her job for them. She happily pays her taxes, as she generally believes in the common welfare promoted to those within her corp. Would she do a run "against" her corp? Probably, but she'd give her handler a heads up first (no offense to her team). She'd also try to steer them AWAY from her corp if at all possible. These situations are part of what can contribute to a 25 point Corp SINner's cost.

Just because you run the shadows doesn't mean you've actually left your corp (whether you realize it or not).

Posted by: Falconer Sep 5 2013, 03:58 AM

Shem... you just don't get it.

The credstick is nothing but a Money-Access-Card... or a pre-paid VISA/MC. It's a card/stick linked to an escrow account in some off-shore datahaven with no name associated to it. There is no SIN associated with the credstick, there is no ownership except for who physically possesses it!

Whoever physically possesses the stick... possesses the cash in the account. That is why all of us are so flustered by this idiocy on the writers/devs part. (okay it's not Bull's fault... then it's all of their faults... thanks Critias).


If you're dumb enough to shift the money out of the certified cred account... and into your own taxed bank account then you deserve to get taxed to hell and thrown in the klink for evasion for sheer stupidity.

The last thing a runner should be doing is using money from his own accounts to directly pay some illegal fence. When the fuzz pulls the bank records for whatever reason... a payment to a known felon is going to go over like a lead balloon. So with the exception of some above board lifestyle expenditures to make the SIN look 'legit'. Almost no activity should go on it.


Rubic:
Sorry but that's one of the worst 'stories' I've heard to date.
The entire point of a shadowrunner is that they're 'nobodies'. That they're deniable assets not tied to a corp.
A deep cover agent is one thing... but someone who simply runs above board and puts their corp at risk doing so is something completely different.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 5 2013, 04:41 AM

This isn't somebody who runs above board. Think of it as a corporate-trained deniable asset. If the runner gets burned, the corp could easily deny everything and shift all the blame onto the runner. "We try so hard to provide for our dedicated and loyal employees, and then we find that our effort and good will is taken advantage of by selfish individuals who can only bite the hand that raised and fed them! Boo, hoo! Take them away, officer, before my tears flood the basement and drown the undocumented corp-slaves I have hidden there making cheap knockoffs of competitor products." Spin, my friend, is a killer. Stay useful and don't blow dreck all over the corp, and they'll look the other way while you harvest talent and revenge for them in the darker places and the hallways of other corps. And for the love of ghost, DON'T go blasting your corp sin while you do it, or you'll be lucky if it's your FRIENDS that blow your brains out for it (mercy killing).

Edit: another way of looking at it is the corp saying, "All of your success is shared with us, all of your failures will be yours alone."

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 5 2013, 05:35 AM

I think Rubic is talking about deniable assets the way the CIA has deniable assets in many shows, you're given some help, but should you get caught, we deny ever having helped you. It may not be an uncommon tactic for those runners who do work for the corps to have a corp runner forced to come along as an on the job asset, proprietary knowledge that may be needed on the run, but don't want it in the hands of a runner crew.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 5 2013, 05:45 AM

That's exactly what I was going for, along the CIA section of your comment. Most Runners are closer to "Michael Weston" from Burn Notice, "contractors," rather than agents from Mission Impossible where failure means "disavowed." This character was just closer to "Mission Impossible," so as to switch things up. Failure will hit really hard, and successes will be at least slightly muted.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 5 2013, 11:22 AM

Even if all that credsticks are are glorified 20th century debit cards, those prepaid cards we use even today have fees that get directly subtracted from the money in them.

I can imagine certified credsticks would work without a SIN,Ootherwise what would the SINless use for money? For taxation purposes, hat raises the problem as to what rate to tax and possibly as to who receives the money (SIN issuing authority, nation, corp). In that case, those kinds of credsticks probably work much like you describe. Trying to tax them at variable rates (or at all) is probably a bad idea.

My thought was to not tax them at all when they change hands, but to possibly charge income tax when nuyen goes to some account attached to a SINner. There could even be a default rate for transferring money between "SINless" devices (who would be entitled to this money?), but the more I think about it, the act of actually certifying a credstick is probably much more involved than simply an encrypted money transfer, thus the device receiving the money wouldn't be certified, and thus not as much like cash, annnd... possibly subject to taxation. (Here we go again.)

Maybe this level of detail is too much for the majority of players.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 5 2013, 11:23 AM

I don't think your spin is worth 25 karma.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 5 2013, 11:41 AM

Does it come with Psychotic gun-toting ex GF and boozer best buddy as part of the cost?

Having to stay with Mom alone should be worth 5-10.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 02:17 PM

Why would you tax that. In theory, anything in your accounts have already been taxed, if they are legitimate accounts. Of course, there may be a fee with transferring Funds to a Certified Credstick, but it would not be a Tax.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 5 2013, 04:16 PM

SINless taxation would come from heavy sales taxes & the like, tax them by what they actually buy since you can't prove their income.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 5 2013, 04:26 PM

2: The whole point of this thread is that thanks to the 5th Edition rules, it has become a worry. All your income is taxed if you used to have a company SIN, despite runners usually being paid cash without invoice. http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=3768.msg221691#msg221691. Which is also why money laundering for big organizations is beside the point, it would need to be done for individuals.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 5 2013, 05:52 PM

My thought was that the taxation would automatically happen as soon as the money is transferred. When corporations start to claim that they can tax people, it could take various forms.

Posted by: RHat Sep 5 2013, 07:17 PM

Because money?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 07:47 PM

Baah... Money is overrated.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 5 2013, 08:02 PM

Money:

Wireless Bonus: May be spent (and taxed) as a Free Action

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 5 2013, 10:26 PM

So... If I'm getting this right, having a real SIN gets you taxed, but having a fake SIN does not and this doesn't generate suspicion.
Or you get taxed for each and every fake SIN you have, at which point most runners are completely screwed.

also, a 5 point negative quality that costs 15% of your income hurts bad, particularly with the newly increased Cyberware prices. Particularly when the 25 point variant only costs 10%. What if you're dual SINned (EG national (Aztlan) plus limited corporate (Aztechnology))? do you have to pay 35% of your income in tax? Again, why do fake SINs not incur tax?

It just raises too many questions...

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 5 2013, 10:29 PM

Maybe they do, and shadowrunners don't use one for more than a single fiscal year.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 5 2013, 10:31 PM

I suspect because the Real SIN has an actual place in the system and does get tallied by the government's/corp's tax office it is assigned to.

The fake SIN on the other hand is something that has been inserted into certain levels of the system to look legit and may or may not stand up to close inspection, because you might not be in the right datalist, one of these being the tax office perhaps.
Maybe the SIN was burned or of a dead person originally, so it's been listed as inactive. The tax office isn't going to try and collect taxes on a dead guy.... yet.

Rumours that the IRS is pushing for Shedim rights so they can change the old saying from 'Death & Taxes' to 'Just Taxes' is not as funny as you may first think.

But depending on where you are, the Dead guy SIN still gets to vote... welcome to Chicago. And that was tradition long before Shedim ever popped up.


Now someone lifts that discarded SIN and carefully reinserts it into the system with a few end runs around some parts of the system so it says you are who the Fake SIN says you are. But if you go for an in depth check, the fact that Fake SIN is invalid will pop up pretty fast.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 5 2013, 11:10 PM

No, those are separate, in the contacts section. And technically, my character would be the gun-toting ex xD

Posted by: Angelone Sep 5 2013, 11:21 PM

OMG, I've been playing an elven Fiona, named Felicia, all this time and nobody told me.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 5 2013, 11:54 PM

Yep, and it does not even matter which SIN you use. If you have a SIN, all income gets taxed..and to avoid the obvious exploit, I'm sure this also applies to in-kind income. So hopefully Hatchetman did not have a SIN, otherwise he'll still be paying off the taxes for his cyberzombie surgery. Death is no excuse to stop paying


Judging from the descriptions of the SIN qualities, dual citizenship doesn't exist anymore.

Posted by: Voran Sep 6 2013, 01:36 AM

I would also houserule/meta-imply that the cost of generating a new fake SIN and its associated risks takes care of the 'tax' aspect. The associated 'trick' with taxes would be having those fake SINs making mid/mediocre income (by only running so much nuyen through them) and have to pay small tax or only get small refunds. You want to blend with legitimate taxpayers. Don't go nuts with deductions, don't seem to own lots of property, etc. You'd claim independent contractor or owner/operator in some blue collarish job that doesn't have official W2s and stuff, etc.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 6 2013, 02:23 AM

We didn't know how to break it to you, m8

Posted by: Smash Sep 6 2013, 02:46 AM

I find it interesting how a lot of roleplayers tend to relisticicise themselves out of games. There are obvious logic holes in how credsticks work. In the earlier editions of Shadowrun they used to just pull the 'It just works' card out and everyone seemed fine with it. When it came to phone usage they basically just said "there are ways the shadowrunners can call their contacts or other people and not have the calls traced". It didn't really explain it, it just worked.

Here's how I deal with credstick realism:

Q) What's a credstick?
A) It's literally an electronic wallet. You can transfer money from one to another just like pulling cash from one wallet and putting it in another.

Q) Wait, can that be hacked?
A) No

Q) Why not?
A) Because.

Q) How do I secure my money? I don't want to walk around with thousands on me.
A) You transfer it into an account.

Q) (Dumb questions about account realism)
A) /snore

Posted by: Rubic Sep 6 2013, 02:55 AM

A credstick CAN be hacked in 4th ed... but... well... hacking credsticks is more about putting money ON than taking money OFF.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 6 2013, 02:16 PM

Only if you assume they are wireless enabled. And yes, it is generally more about creating fake money than it is taking someone else's money. Easier way is to just take control of the reader and give a false validation of funds, "Spoofing" the payment as it were. SO much easier than creating fake money.

Posted by: Rubic Sep 6 2013, 11:08 PM

It's not about wireless enabled or not. It's about having a commlink with the right programs, enough skill to make those programs sing, and any type of connection to that credstick, whether wireless or, more likely, physically attaching it to a reader/fibeop connection.

Posted by: RHat Sep 7 2013, 12:24 AM

Well now you're just lacking in imagination. If you know in advance a device the credstick will be inserted into, you can hack into that and get the credstick when it gets plugged in. Wireless isn't the only option for hacking, it's jsut the only one without varying prerequisites.

Posted by: SpellBinder Sep 7 2013, 12:31 AM

In SR5, wireless isn't an option for hacking a credstick at all. You must slot it before you can hack it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2013, 02:10 AM

Which is why I mentioned the Credstick Reader, rather than the Credstick...