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Posted by: grid.samurai Aug 30 2013, 03:27 AM

I'm writing a run that has one of my runners in possession of well-preserved parchments from the Fourth World. They are currently sealed in a metal scroll case and he has yet to open the case and read the contents (well, try to read them). I'd like to make what follows, believable from both a Fourth and Sixth World perspective.

1) What language was used commonly in the Fourth World?

2) Who would possess the knowledge in the Sixth World to translate it?

3) What secret societies, groups, or nefarious types would be interested in Fourth World lore?

Your thoughts and ideas are welcome. Thanks.

(edit: Question #3 Sixth World lore > Fourth World lore.. thanks, Tanegar)

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 30 2013, 05:30 AM

Can't help with question #1, but as for the others:

#2: Any Great Dragon, any immortal elf, probably the Draco Foundation and Benandanti XXV. Possibly others, but those are the ones I know of.

#3: I'm going to assume you meant Fourth World lore, and it varies depending on exactly what's on the scroll. The parties mentioned above will at least want to know what it says. If it's some new (to the Sixth World) and powerful magical technique, then pretty much everybody will want it, and the runners should expect to be the focus of a serious and potentially fatal multi-way tug-of-war. If it's Auntie Em's Secret Ambrosia Pie recipe, then it will mainly be of interest to museums.

Posted by: Umidori Aug 30 2013, 06:15 AM

The common language of the Fourth World was Throalic Dwarven, or at least it was in the region of Barsaive, now in modern day Eastern Europe.

In the Mediterranean region, the common language was Theran or Old Theran, depending on which particular subregion you're in, but Throalic Dwarven would also be understood, even if it was actively frowned upon.

There's also evidence to suggest that the various racial languages were carried intact with the individual races wherever they roamed, so that two Elves from two entirely different parts of the world would likely be able to understand each other - although they'd likely have differing "dialects" of Sperethiel. This applies chiefly to the more exotic races: T'skrang, Obsidimen, Elves, Windlings, and Dwarves.

In contrast, Humans, Orks, and Trolls had a much higher degree of language fragmentation, in large part because their cultures were so fragmented. Humans had countless different tribes and ethnicities, and pretty much every other one had its own unique language. Trolls had a sort of large "language family tree", with lots of related but regionally distinct variants, akin to Spanish or possibly even Latin in the modern world. Orks, spending quite a long time as a slave race, had a habit of using the languages of other races, often borrowing words or phrases wholesale and mixing them up with their own unique Orkish jargon and slang.

Then there are all the lost or obscure languages. The Scythan Dwarves had their own dialect, but they never emerged from their kaers and citadels. Speaking of kaers, Kaer-Tongues were apparantly a thing, cropping up during the long age of the Scourge, typically unique in formation and born out of the fact that multiple different cultures and languages would be forced to share a single shelter. Draconic of course was spoken by dragons, but also other reptilian creatures and even some T'skrang.

Various "monsters" had their own languages, such as Goblinoid, Giant, Gnoll, Gnomish, Ignan, Auran, Aquan, Terran, Druidic, Undercommon, et cetera. The Horrors had at least three different languages, Abyssal, Aklo, and Infernal with the former even being employed by some Blood Elves, and all three being employed by various "demonic" and otherworldy creatures. The Passions, angels, and similarly "good" beings spoke Celestial.

Basically, there were more langauges than you could shake a stick at, and only in really highly built up regions of the world - like Throal or Thera - was it at all centralized.

~Umi

Posted by: grid.samurai Aug 30 2013, 06:16 AM

The parchments are a series of instructions on the care of dragon eggs from a group called the Order of the Great Hunter. It includes how to keep the eggs safe and how to assist the hatchlings during the hatching process. It also provides information on feeding and caring for young dragon hatchlings. Essentially, a lot of information on "How to Hatch and Rear a Dragon". I found some information from ED (Gamemaster's Guide - Chapter 12: Dragons) about this process, so I'm using that material for the information to be found on the parchments.

This information was scribed by a group from that setting (the Fourth World). So, this is why I was curious about what language they would use and who might be able to decipher it. I've got an idea brewing on who would be after the runner for the parchments, but there is usually a lot of additional story material out there that I haven't been exposed to that I'm interested in using for this particular run.

Posted by: Umidori Aug 30 2013, 06:18 AM

If it was knowledge about dragons, it was probably recorded in Throalic or Theran, as they were the empires with the sorts of resources to be able to research stuff like dragons and not get eatten in the process.

For simplicity's sake, one could that argue that almost anything that was well preserved enough to survive into the Sixth World would probably have been Throalic or Theran, for much the same reason that they had the best resources for preserving things.

~Umi

Posted by: grid.samurai Aug 30 2013, 06:23 AM

So Sperethiel as it is known in the Sixth World would be similar.. mostly? Dialects aside.



At the heart of this run is Verjigorm, the Great Hunter. I've read up on him and while he is one of the most epic Horrors, I do not plan to use him directly, but more like a Cthulhu being.. controlling cultists to do his bidding. So this bit on The Horrors, Infernal, and Blood Elves is something that interests me. I need to read some more on Blood Elves.

Posted by: Dolanar Aug 30 2013, 07:44 AM

Bear in mind our own history of language, in all of our recorded history I think there are only 5 or so dead languages, & we still know OF them, but we have no records of their speech patterns, but even the older languages- Latin, Greek, Chinese, etc are still in use in some form today.

Posted by: grid.samurai Aug 30 2013, 09:13 AM

Is there an estimation on when the Fourth World existed then (for a frame of reference to the time that it supposedly existed)? It would have to be long enough ago that such a vibrant history of magic, monsters, elves, dwarves, and other such phenomena would have time enough to fade away into obscurity right? Pre-pre-history so to speak.

Posted by: Umidori Aug 30 2013, 01:06 PM

Let me put it this way.

Long enough ago that http://baptist1.narod.ru/volgodonsk.jpg http://www.fotopaises.com/Fotos-Paises/t/2003/7/13/30_6117.jpg http://www.zchocolat.com/site/upload/images/small/cities/1945.jpg http://static5.depositphotos.com/1002326/466/i/950/depositphotos_4668291-Park-on-the-embankment-of-the-river-in-city-Volgodonsk.jpg was absolutely covered in the thick, teeming, trackless http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/114538/Servos_Jungle.jpg - the largest in Barsaive.

For comparison, for all of recorded history the Amazon has been a rainforest and jungle. The Sahara, likewise, has been a desert for as long as we have had extant human writings and records. Regions don't undergo the sorts of radical environmental changes Barsaive saw very quickly. If we were talking a purely natural process, it'd likely be hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions.

Now, oddly enough, we don't need an estimation - we have the exact time frame! Officially, the island of Thera sank in 3113 BCE, roughly coinciding with the beginning of the Mesoamerican Long Count calender on August 11, 3114 BCE, the mythological date of the creation of the universe. Likewise, after 13 b'ak'tuns of time, at the end of the calender, we get the Awakening of 2011. These two points in time are the start and end of the Fifth Age.

Fortunately, we have ~Magic!~ to make up some of the difference in the state of the world and to speed along things like the disappearance of entire jungle ecosystems to be replaced by cold and sparsely vegetated Ukrainian terrain. Since magic can literally change the fabric of reality and physics, we can explain things like that away pretty easily - "The jungle was a direct result of high concentrations of mana, which served to nourish the local flora to immense levels of lushness and verdance", garbage like that.

Anyways, with the Fifth Age starting in 3113 BCE, that means the Fourth Age ended then. But when did the Fourth Age start? Apparantly in 8238 BCE, which, oddly, almost coincides with the date supplied by Plato in describing the sinking of Atlantis. Plato wrote in 360 BCE, and claimed that Atlantis sank "9,000 years prior", which is close enough given that he only offered a vague, rounded number. Oddly enough, though, the sinking of the isle of Thera in 3113 BCE is officially stated to have been the source of the Atlantis story, so it must have been distorted over the millenia before Plato god a hold of the legend.

~Umi

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 02:36 PM

Not sure how common it is across the 6th World. However, My current Mystic Adept Occult Investigator has discovered the Theran Language and is currently trying to learn it (though it has been a monumental task so far). He has even discovered a few ancient Theran Magical Artifacts (cook pots). Entertaining.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 02:38 PM

I think that there are more than 5 Dead Languages out there...

Posted by: Chrome Head Aug 30 2013, 03:28 PM

I can't help but come in to correct this factual inaccuracy. There are hundreds of extinct languages that we know about. There are without a doubt thousands of extinct languages that we never heard of. This being said while keeping in mind that the very process of counting languages is a task difficult to define by consensus. Just putting it out there. [/off-topic]

Posted by: Bigity Aug 30 2013, 03:36 PM

When I was running a SR game back in the day, I always meant to start bringing in the blood magic from ED. Not the sacrifice stuff, but the blood pacts and oaths and such.

Posted by: grid.samurai Aug 30 2013, 05:37 PM

I keep swatting away images of World of Warcraft Blood Elves when I hear about them. So, what's the scoop on the Blood Elves of ED lore then? I'm finding some stuff online, but it would be nice to get an official rundown. And thanks for all the history, Umi. That's good stuff.

Posted by: Bigity Aug 30 2013, 06:42 PM

Basically,

Back in the 4th World/ED - the magicians of the day got wind of some Bad Shit coming - called Horrors. When the mana levels of the world increased enough, the Horrors came from Somewhere Else (metaplane or possibly beyond even those). They eat everything, including emotions like pain, sorrow, fear, etc.

The people back then worked out a defense - by building and hiding in heavily warded and trapped kaers, underground settlements or walled/domed citidals created to keep out the Horrors and sustain life (with magic to grow food, air, water, etc).

The blood elves decided to do it their own way, and tried to make kaers of wood. This didn't work, and almost immediately they started losing the war to keep the Horrors out. In order to survive, they created and evoked the Ritual of Thorns - every elf there in their major settlement in Barsaive (Dragon Wood, renamed to the Blood Wood) sprouted thorns that grew through their flesh. This kept them in a sustained amount of pain - which repelled the Horrors - as they want to 'eat' pain they cause. It also caused them to constantly bleed which eventually corrupted the forest they lived in.

When the Scourge ended (mostly - part of the ED lore is that the mana levels got 'stuck' low enough were most Horrors had left or were weakened, but magic still worked), people started coming out of the kaers - including elves who weren't in the blood wood, who were horrified at what the 'blood elves' had done. Several of the Blood Elves were immortal elves...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 30 2013, 07:27 PM

I figure everyone has heard of Atlantis.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 30 2013, 07:34 PM

Or at least http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Atlanta

Posted by: shinryu Aug 30 2013, 09:01 PM

i am basically unfamiliar with earthdawn outside of the broad strokes connecting it to shadowrun*, forgive me if this is a dumb question, but was there any indication as to the possible roots of modern languages in the old languages? that is to say, would anything from the fourth world have become something like the indo-european root language? if so, there may be at least some way to start a rough translation. of course, if it's sperethiel then yay elves i guess. assuming ancient written sperethiel looks anything like modern written sperethiel, which it should if that immortal elf thing is actually true.

*which are by and large dumb bullshit as near as i can tell. why couldn't the fucking insect spirits be, you know, toxic insect spirits? good ol' dunkelzahn blowing himself up on inauguration day to power a magical artifact? immortal elves are ok in theory,but in practice bleh.

Posted by: Nath Aug 30 2013, 11:10 PM

The 3113 BCE date only comes from one source, the "Humans and the Cycle of Magic " address by Ehran (which had three different canon versions, in 1989, http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/imports/cycleOfMagic.html and est.http://old.shadowrun4.com/fiction/fiction1.shtml).

The address makes the following statements:
- "The average time between Threshold Levels is approximatively 5200 years"
- August 21, 3113 BC marked "the end of the Fourth World and the beginning of the Fifth"
- "Converting the Mayan dates to the current Christian calendar, [the Mayan calendar] correctly states that the Threshold would be passed on December 24, 2011."
- The Sixth World will end, according to the Mayan calendar, on April 4, 7137 AD.

But 13 baktuns of the Mayan calendar actually last 1 872 000 days, while there are 1 871 270 days between August 21st, 3113 BCE and December 24th, 2011, and there will be 1 871 969 days between December 24th, 2011 and April 4th, 7137. Ehran maths are wrong, along with almost any other fact he brings up, like the date other calendars start at and their ability to predict a future date (based on RL knowledge at least). But since we have no other date to hold onto, it's still better than nothing.

IRL, the Décember 24th, 2011 date as the end of the Long Count featured in the first edition of The Maya by Michael D. Coe, published in 1966. He changed it January 11th, 2013 in second edition in 1980, and December 21st, 2012 in the third edition, in 1984 (that date then having already been published by other archaeologists). Chances are Shadowrun was written with the first edition as a reference, or some other work who quoted it.

It ought to be said he "blood elves" only got that name, along with the wood they live in, after they performed the Ritual of Thorns.

To detail things a bit, the Theran empire studied the threat early and designed the ward and other kaer defenses. They offered the other people these protection in exchange for allegiance. Wyrm Wood was the seat of the Elven Queen, which reigned over some sort of commonwealth of elven nations (that is, it wasn't a contiguous territory, much more like a set of colonies, or the dispersed remnants of an old empire). The Queen refused to bow down to the Theran Empire, and ordered that no elve does so. Ended that all elven nations except for Wyrmwood itself accepted the Theran offer.

It is possible that FASA people choose past Ukraine as the primary setting for Earthdawn era as a reference to thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_theory, which postulate Indo-European languages spread originated in the area (companion theory making Basque the only remnant of the original Western European languages) and would have prompted the common myth of a new generation of warrior gods replacing the older ones (Olympians versus Titans, Ases and Vanir...).

Posted by: Bigity Aug 31 2013, 12:38 AM

I dunno if I'd say bullshit. Same developer, sometimes even the same writers were creating both games back then.

However, I agree, the dragon heart stuff was a little ridiculous, and it would have been even in an Earthdawn setting. I like that there are connections, but I tend to think they became too important. And then of course the properties went different ways and the connections are downplayed/ignored.

Posted by: Lionhearted Aug 31 2013, 09:24 AM

As always when ED/SR cross pollination is involved the Ancient files is an excellent resource to start off with, tis a little out of the loop on recent developments but still full of juicy stuff and reference to sources.
*points to sig* there's a link