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Posted by: GloriousRuse Aug 30 2013, 08:10 PM

So, we've all played the game where the former special forces guy teams up with the absurdly powerful anti-establishment mage, the glacier shaving Decker, and the Face who can convince you to change sexualities, twice. And the rules are great at making that team.

Likewise, the Street level characters who are quite capable of outshooting most SWAT teams, and have incidentally just the right dump stats.

Even the best Character Role Players are rarely going to leave any serious action deficiencies, and usually have at least one specialty tweaked to well beyond professional competence.

But what if there was an alternate rule set, one that made the metahuman first, before any character consideration? One where you could see how your typical "fell-in-to the-shadows, didn't dive into it" character might be created.

The goal is not balanced, nor fair, character creation. It is, indeed, the opposite: to present an unfair, unoptimized, un-player balanced chargen where the world of shadowrun is dangerous, and scary. Where, by virtue of being "real" the environment and the players need to be respected and feared, not treated as a handy challenge for tonight's session.

The rules are always update-able, and I am seeking further input into their creation just as a pet project. Specifically skills and resources related to these things.

They do not include societal adjustments yet (for instance, you get the statistical chance of being a mage, without accounting for the vast likelihood corps would pick you up for corporate educating before the street ganger and therefore increase the odds he never considers cirminality), but if anyone has the numbers to run it, it might be interesting.

You'll need a d100 or similar percentile generating function.

Step 1. The basics

Roll Metatype (Seattle pop numbers used from Seattle 2072)
1-66 = Your human. Hooray.
67-79 = An elf, you might say you win the genetic lottery.
80-81 = Dwarf it is.
82-97 = Ork.
98+ = Troll

Roll stats (base + 2.5 used as the mean for a normal distribution with each point being a standard deviation)
Roll each stat using the following. This will give you slightly above average individuals (roughly priority B normally distributed) Downshift 1 level if the racial max is less than 6:
1-3: Base (Human 1)
4-18: Base + 1 (Human 2)
19 - 52: Base + 2 (Human 3)
53 - 84 : Base + 3 (Human 4)
84 - 98 : Base + 4 (Human 5)
99+: Roll Again -
IF 1-98, Base + 5 (Human 6)
IF 99+, Exceptional Attribute (Human 7)

If you want your characters even more pedestrian, her eis the same table centered on 3, which gives roughly priority C stats normally distributed.

Roll stats (base + 2 used as the mean for a normal distribution with each point being a standard deviation)
Roll each stat using the following. Downshift 1 level if the racial max is less than 6:
1-6: Base (Human 1 - this is slightly higher as it accommodates for all the standard devs that would be below base with the new left skew)
7-31: Base + 1 (Human 2)
32-69: Base + 2 (Human 3)
70-94 : Base + 3 (Human 4)
94-98 : Base + 4 (Human 5)
99: Base + 5
00: Roll Again
IF 1-98: Base + 5
IF 99-00: Exceptional Attribute

"Too weak to live" rule: If your attributes total up to less than or equal to (8 * base +1), you may reroll . E.g. a human with a combined total of 16 or less could reroll.

Step 1 complete. You now have whatever the fate's gifted you with.

Step 2. Did you Awaken?
1-97 = Nope. get over it, go to step 3. So, how long before you start to hate those magical haves when your a have not?
98 = Your a techno. Freak.
99-00 = Yes! Well, that was improbable. Roll Again:

1-33: Mage, well aren't you the shit. Roll Again
IF 1-50: True mage
IF 51-00: Aspected magician

34-40 = Mystic Adept.
41+ = Adept

Determine Magic Rating (skewed left normal distribution centered on 2)
1-18: Magic 1
19-52: Magic 2
53-84: Magic 3
84 - 98: Magic 4
99: Roll Again
1-98: Magic 5
99-00: Magic 6

Step 3: What part of society are you from? (Derived from Seattle 2072, in the absence of meaningful stats, I've used education as a baseline for separating low and middle lifestyles. if anyone has accurate number on rough estimates for the SINless, it would help. Criminal SINs are pulled from felonies per thousand)
1-3: SINless, Street. As it implies, you do not have a SIN.
4-15: SINless, Squatter.
16-20: SINless, Low.
21: Criminal SIN, Squatter
22: Criminal SIN, Low
23-34: National SIN, Low.
35-52: National SIN, Low, Corporate Affiliation
53-60: Corporate Limited SIN, Low
61-71: National SIN, Middle
72-85: Corporate Limited SIN, Middle
85-92: Corporate SIN, Middle
93-97: Corporate SIN, High
98: National SIN, High
99-00: Roll Again
1-98: Your choice of SIN, High
99-00: Luxury. Corporate SIN, naturally.



NOTE: Beyond this rudimentary point needs serious work and contribution, because after being born into a silver spoon or appalling poverty, you could start shaping your life..somewhat. right now we are considering skills "packs" and some limited skillpoint expenditures base don background.

Posted by: Wulffyre Aug 30 2013, 08:30 PM

This is awesome!

*thumbs up!*

I approve very much. How would you handle skills with that?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 09:16 PM

Sadly, you can accomplish all of that without all the effort you put into it. Just create your character with the goal in mind, and you are set. A Number of my characters are exactly what you propose. Schlubs that have been thrust into the Shadows and have to survive.

Posted by: Dolanar Aug 30 2013, 09:18 PM

I'd say the best way to handle skills is a skill pack with specified levels, cannot be modded until after creation is done.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Aug 30 2013, 09:54 PM

Skills, Resources, and Edge are indeed my current stumbling blocks. I suspect they would have to be tied into your social strata, and maybe have an advancement over time function as well.

Yes, but isn't it convenient that a team of said schlubs will have a mage, a decker (maybe not..they aren't too popular), a face, and still have enough firepower to handily persevere in what should result in 90% of them dying each time? Even in games that are nominally street/junior/ganger the likelihood of power creep into even the best of intentions is extremely high. And as a result, players do not fear or respect the environment. Why should they? they are, essentially, built for it.

This is about not giving you the choice to make the schlub you want, but deal with the schlub the world gave you.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 09:55 PM

Why do you make that assumption? It does not have to be true.
You will get the jobs that your team is capable of. You will not be hired to fail, unless you are.

Posted by: Dolanar Aug 30 2013, 10:15 PM

Honestly, you are probably playing to a very small audience here, most people play games like shadowrun to create a character of their choosing, not play a character force fed down their throat, however, since you are trying to create a system without choice & option. best bet is to create package deals.

For instance a make package that fits a specific minor niche such as, Focus creation, create a skill package designed for that & only that. give each of these packages a number & make them roll for which package they get, then you let them run with it. for instance a "beginner B&E" package might have a specific set of skills all at rank 1, & then they can't boost it, even if some skills are useless to them in most situations. Resources you can make a chart with several different basic runner specs, cheap, low quality guns, etc low rating gear, & Edge you might as well just leave at the base for each race.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 30 2013, 10:25 PM

SR4A had PACKS, which worked well for that, in my opinion. Both Versions.

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 31 2013, 12:51 AM

Check out Chargen in the Traveler RPG. It's a fair model for what you're trying for.

Posted by: Critias Aug 31 2013, 01:06 AM

I just whipped a guy together with a handfull of Invisible Castle rolls, and did Edge like a normal attribute roll.

I guess for skills you could base them off the free Knowledge/Language skill formula (only giving the "free" Active skills off Agility + Strength or some other pair of pretty 'active' attributes, instead of Logic + Intuition, of course), and just do a simple 1d6 per skill for starting levels.

Attach starting nuyen to that lifestyle/SIN roll, just by applying a multiplier to the regular "starting nuyen" extra cash you get based on lifestyle?

Posted by: thorya Aug 31 2013, 02:43 AM

Tymeaus Jalynsfein are you really contributing anything by just telling people not to play the way they want, just because it's not how you play or make characters? Sometimes it's fun to have a random gen character (or an easy way to make random gen NPC).

For skills, may I suggest that you have use contacts to generate a list of appropriate background careers/skill trainings and then give skills equal to what the contact has (allow some portion to be reassigned). Here is my list using contacts from 4e. When multiple are given, pick the one that fits best.

Janitor, Blue Collar: 1-20
Ganger, drug dealer, petty criminal: 21-24
Bag Boy, courier, delivery truck driver: 25-26
Secretary, Retail, assistant: 27-40
Political Intern, Student: 41-45
Bar Tender, Waitress, Stripper: 46-55
Paramedic, Nurse, EMT, Med Student: 56-58
Taxi Driver: 59
Journalist, Blogger, Data entry: 60-67
Mechanic, Handiman, Skilled Blue Collar: 68-70
Small time politician, lobbyist, marketer, activist: 71-80
Hipster, Artiste, Socialite: 81-85
Street Doctor, Street Healer: 86-87
Club Owner, Slum Lord, Hotel Manager, Small Business Owner: 88-89
Programmer, IT, Cybersecurity: 90-93
Lawyer, Corporate Attorney: 94
Rent-a-cop, Lone Star Patrol, PI: 95
Corporate Scientist, Professor (without a corporate SIN, reroll): 96
Corporate Manager, City Bureaucrat (without a corporate SIN, reroll): 97-98
Corporate Trouble Shooter, Mr. Johnson, High Level executive: 99

Awakened:
Other Career (roll on table above): 1-50
Healer: 51-70
Talismonger: 71-74
Para-security: 75-95
Para-researcher: 96-99

Posted by: vladski Aug 31 2013, 03:17 AM

Remember good ol' D&D? That was the point of rolling those six attributes. You never knew exactly what character you were coming up with. Depending on the exact method you used, you had some control, but still you might wind up with Joe Awesome for Everything, or you might wind up with Joe Barely Able in Anything. And you played that character and you took pride in that character when hey, he barely qualified to be a Ranger but I took him to 20 levels!

I completely get what the OP is going for here. But, at the same time, the finite control to build whatever character you can envision is one of the big draws to the SR game system. (And one of the things I really dislike about the new priority system in 5E!) Having an optional system, such as he proposes, is great for a table that wants to run a campaign like that, and I can see the draw. More power to you, GloriousRuse. The challenge of randomness can be exhilarating.

Vlad

Posted by: Dolanar Aug 31 2013, 06:59 AM

Vladski there is a difference between randomly genned stats & having to fit a complete concept on a completely random character, the method mentioned means a player walks into the session having no idea of what he's playing until all dice have been rolled & then you have to take the dice rolls & fit a concept around what you've made, you won't even know if you're capable of casting magic until you roll the dice. Personally even with randomly generated stats in D&D I still walked in with concept & classes chosen to fit regardless of my stats.

Posted by: RHat Aug 31 2013, 07:17 AM

Notionally, there may be an issue in which the numbers are set up to mirror total base rates, and thus failing to factor for possible/probable over/under-representations in the shadows. For example, I would expect to see a higher proportion of orks in the shadows than the general population.

Posted by: Udoshi Aug 31 2013, 08:48 AM

What we actually have here is perhaps more appropriately called Roguelike mode characer creation.

Randomized stats, class, and gear! SIGN me up for a death on floor one!

Posted by: toturi Aug 31 2013, 09:07 AM

Is this meant for a long term game? Or is it meant for a short term/one-shot? If the characters do not have enough firepower (by which I mean in the physical, social, and any other contests that they may encounter) to handily persevere in what should result in 90% of them dying each time? You will get 90% of them dying each time, you are likely to have to generate characters over and over and over again until you reach the team of un-schlubs in which case you could have simply created those un-schlubs in the first place.

If you want to deal with the schlub the world gave you, chances are that the player will not get attached to the character, statistically they are not going to survive pass the first few games.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 31 2013, 09:31 AM

Yeah, Shadowrun is an incredibly lethal game, even with characters designed for it. Schlubs thrown into the shadows may "fear and respect the environment", but they will still have to deal with it, meaning a high mortality rate. Caution, tactics, and lateral thinking can only get you so far, even in a game like Shadowrun which encourages those things.

Plus, be prepared for characters of wildly different power levels. Even in games where everyone starts out with the same amount of karma or build points, characters range wildly up and down the power scale. What you are proposing is not like D&D, where you roll random stats but all start out as 1st level characters. This is more like D&D where you randomly roll for character level.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2013, 03:01 PM

Indeed I am... I am saying that you can generate such a character, complete with foibles and Schlubness, by having that concept in mind before you start, and then building him/her within the actual character generation system that already exists. No tables or random rolls required. We all KNOW what a Schlub is, so just create one. It is not all that difficult.

And then expect him/her to die within the first game, as most schlubs would. *shrug* It takes great effort to keep such a character alive in Shadowrun, and when you can do it, great. Just don't expect it.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 31 2013, 03:31 PM

*Pulls out a d100 for a sample character*
*Rolls 00 on Step 2: Awaken*

Uh...

Posted by: Critias Aug 31 2013, 04:04 PM

Except that no, TJ, you're really not contributing anything. Someone is working on a project for fun, and you're telling them "you don't need to do that, you should have fun my way" over and over again, instead of actually adding anything positive. I think everyone here knows that they can make a character to suit a concept just fine. This is just offering them a way to do so with the clatter of dice, adding some old-school D&D-ness to the process.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 31 2013, 04:17 PM

Think 00 means become Mentor Spirit/Paragon

Draco18s

Draco18s is one of the few Dragon Mentor Spirits seen to date, which is surprising given the amount of subconscious emotions dragons invoke in people and the general know-it-allness that most dragons seem to exude, though Draco18s has shown an almost undragonlike willingness to help others, granted it may require a deal or two, hence his role as Mentor.


(Will let Draco fill this in )
Advantages:

ALL:
Magician:
Adept:

Disadvantages

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2013, 04:27 PM

But the method given does not actually do that Critias, as others have already suggested. *shrug*
What the above method actually does is remove any creative input whatsoever from the process, relying completely upon the dice to generate a non-playable entity. Even DnD has creative input and player choice; so no, it is not injecting any old-school DnD-ness at all.

Posted by: thorya Aug 31 2013, 05:17 PM

Again, saying that it's wrong because you don't like it, is not contributing. *shrug*

Guess it's just a different way of playing. Must be different than your table. *shrug*

But since there are entire game systems that use this as a basis, there must be people that enjoy this. *shrug* Though, I had forgotten that it's a cardinal sin of Shadowrun to play in a different way than Tymeaus Jalynsfein. I'm glad you're here to remind us that your table is the special one true way to play, *shrug* but do you actually have anything to constructive to suggest in terms of making a random generated character?

Posted by: Lantzer Aug 31 2013, 05:38 PM

TJ, what he's trying to do there has been done in other games, to greater or lesser degrees. They sometimes get quite complex (sometimes called Lifepath generation). Now, the best of these systems usually have a few choices you make along the way, but these are usually oriented towards "what direction does this character go professionally with those stats" to generate skill packages and the like.

Once in a Mekton game, a freind was quite amused when he randomly generated a character who could be mistaken for Ranma Saotome: abilities, social situation, and all.

Whether you like these setups is a matter of taste and genre. Sometimes I find them fun, & sometimes they get in the way of fun.

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 31 2013, 06:48 PM

The Classic Traveller RPG character generation actually was a lot of fun despite being largely dice rolled with barely any choices to be made along the way.

Most of your skills came from the rolls as well as your career path up thru generation determined the majority of what you knew.

Plus any chargen system that had a fair chance of death before you even get finished making made for interesting moments. Chargen became almost a mini-game in itself.
Though now I hear the Mongoose version has toned it down a bit from death to life-changing events that put the kebosh on the current career, but still it can be fun and does not necessarly provide lifeless cut-outs that the players can not enjoy.

And you still get some creativity as the chargen lays out the broad strokes but you fill in the fine lines.

In one review I saw for it, the write pointed out that events from chargen which happen to coincide suggest linkages with the characters. For example, two players were ejected from the Navy and Army respectively due to military disasters blamed on them by their commanders, which has led us to infer that about 8-12 years before the campaign started there was a big war which both characters were involved in – and in fact it there was an officer further up the chain who framed both of them to cover some little shenanigans he had been pulling on the side and had to hang some bodies to cover his tracks.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 31 2013, 06:51 PM

Hehe.

Advantages:
+2 dice to resist mana spells
Disadvantages:
Compulsion to make snarky comments.

[Thoughts: I wanted to do +2 Willpower, but that would have been a bit much. The idea being that I'm generally stubborn and tend to be rather blunt and rough around the edges.]

Anyway, the point I was making is that you don't account for 00 in most of your charts. Stats doesn't make mention of it, none of the steps in Magic, nor Step 3 (background).

Posted by: Chrome Head Aug 31 2013, 07:13 PM

This is a really great idea, if for nothing else than to get a feeling about what a normally distributed set of attributes looks like in the SR world.

I'd aim for an average of 3 instead of 3.5, however, given that 3 is meant to be the average. Your current scheme leads to average attributes of 20, or priority B, which is also the maximum you were allowed to give a character in SR4, and this seems way too high to me. An average of 3 gives the equivalent a priority C to attributes, on average, which is more reasonable.

For those interested, I rolled one character just for fun, which looked like the following (absolutely NOT a schlub, but that's not the reasoning behind my suggestion of lower stats, just a lucky illustration of the problem -- then again, it has 21 attributes and the average is 20, so he's relatively average, according to the current scheme):

Posted by: Critias Aug 31 2013, 08:08 PM

That's not the question that was asked of you. No one asked you to just repeat your argument. What was asked is "are you really contributing anything by..." And you're not. You're really not. You're just saying, over and over again, that you don't like this stuff, and other people shouldn't like this stuff, and they don't need this stuff because they can just make a character like you do. You're not just saying you don't like it and then leaving the thread, you're coming back to say it's badwrongfun over and over, and derailing the conversation by doing so.

That's not really contributing anything.

*shrug*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2013, 08:13 PM

And that is just your opinion. *shrug*
After all, I am not the one being antagonistic. I offered my opinion and Input, as the topic asked.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2013, 08:18 PM

Never said it was Wrong, Just that I did not like it and there were better ways to accomplish such a (mundane, average, and a more statistically represented archetype) character without randomness.



Indeed... Again, does not make it wrong.



Name one that is Totally Random. I can't. *shrug*
And your sniping misses the mark, Thorya. I really can't care less what you think about my table. *shrug*

Posted by: thorya Aug 31 2013, 09:03 PM

And yet you bring your table up incessantly when being disrespectful to other people because they don't play the way you like. So I'll ask you one last time, do you have anything constructive to add?

Deadlands has random generation elements. There are rules to play D&D with a completely random build (and I have even played a game using one of these characters, she was awesome). Gamma world. Even more that have random NPC generation. It's not different than any game with pre-made characters that you play at a convention or for a one-shot. It is possible to roleplay without a point buy system.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Aug 31 2013, 09:33 PM

Chrome: Thank you for that observation. I'll consider it a target 3 for the next update, though that will result in a slight left skew on the 1-6 scale.

Thorya: That's a nice background list. I may have to plagiarize a bit.

Draco: Good catch. For some reason I was thinking 1-99. I'll incorporate 00...and maybe even the spirit idea

Posted by: Sendaz Aug 31 2013, 09:54 PM

Heh, So let's see.

Mentor Spirit- Draco18s

One of the few Dragon Mentor Spirits noted to date, which is unusual given the sort of impact dragons have had.

Draco18s is the Draconic form of the Ultimate Big Sibling, as the Elder Race looking after the Younger Race while they stumble through their childhood phase.
It is their duty to help teach these cubs, but does not suffer fools lightly. Definitely of the tough love school the usual modus operandi is 'Aid and Upbraid' offering help with one hand while wagging the finger with the usual draconic We-know-more-than-you-do-so-pay-attention and leaves them with a reputation as being quite stubborn and abrupt.

Advantages:
ALL: +2 dice to resist Mana based Spells, Whether its a spell trying to sap their will or cloud their minds, their sheer stubbornness (and dragon like ego) serves them well in this.
Magician: +2 dice for Spells, preparations and rituals in the Detection Category. Always ready to determine the truth of the matter and not afraid to tell you it.
Adept: Free Kinesis (never let them see you sweat), One Free Improved Sense (All seeing, yada yada yada..)

Disadvantages:
When giving aid, assistance or advice you must roll Willpower + Charisma (3) to avoid making a snarky comment about how it could have been done better/faster/easier or could have avoided the whole problem altogether.

Similar Archtypes: Tutor, Leadership


Again for some ideas for roll up characters, there are a few free start ups on rpgnow to download like Book 0 for Traveller. Just a bit of tweaking of the backgrounds like thorya's list and you got a nifty baseline to work from.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 31 2013, 11:20 PM

Depending on the edition the stats may have been rolled in order. So your class while not forced was heavily determined by the rolls. 7 Dex, sorry can't be a thief etc.

It is an interesting idea especially with how magic is supposed to be rare thing. Personally I'd give a few more % points in to the magic chance, while magic might be 1% of the pop mages are concentrated in certain fields so the mage in runner pop is probably higher like 5-10%.

Skills maybe have a die roll for # of skills per skill category like combat, technical then a roll for 1-6 for determining the level of the skill. Need to be a mage or technomnacer to roll on those skill groups.

Posted by: FuelDrop Aug 31 2013, 11:35 PM

Traveller gives control to the player in several ways.
1: They get to pick their career (they might not make the roll to get into said career, but at least they got the choice)
2: They get to pick their branch within that career and thus influence A) what skills they get and B) what progression bonuses they get.
3: If the roll on the life events table for the term gives you one of X skills, you get to pick which one.

Combine this with the select your homeworld (which gives you some skills at level 0) and your profession's service skills (You get 6 skills related to your profession at level 0) and you can actively control no less than 8 of your starting skills quite effectively.
With lifepath generation the player should be involved to guide the character's growth as often as possible. Just rolling dice for everything and playing the result reduces the emotional connection and can have the opposite effect to making the character more metahuman as the player regards them as just a collection of dice rolls.

It's a fine line to walk.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 31 2013, 11:42 PM

The comparisons to other random character creation systems are not quite accurate, to me. The difference is that those systems still created random characters. This system seems to create random pedestrians.

Look, I've done games where character creation is more random, like D&D and the old Gamma World, and I know how fun and exhilarating the addition of that random element can be. And I can see the appeal of a variant game where the characters are average, everyday people who get suddenly uprooted from their lives and thrust into a dangerous environment, like Rock in Black Lagoon.

The trouble is, I have a hard time seeing how it could really work. I have played in too many games where my badass, optimized characters got shot to hell, or escaped by the skin of their teeth, or died gloriously (or ignominiously). So, great, you're a data entry clerk from Renraku who lost his job, and you're out on the mean streets with nothing but a datajack and a few middling computer (non-hacking) skills. So what do you do? What kind of "shadowrunning" jobs can this person do? How can he defend himself against even common muggers? Sure, the character will be a lot more fearful of challenges that shadowrunners take in stride, but is that a good thing, if you're planning on this guy eventually, somehow, becoming a shadowrunner? And having an entire group of similar randomly-rolled people would be even more difficult to have any kind of game with.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 31 2013, 11:51 PM

I don't know, 1e d&d used 3d6 as the default roll method which created pretty average dudes in a really swingy way.

And in 4e we did a 200 point game with a starting stat and skill cap of 3 before racial mods and we got by. We did more street crime level runs but we got by,

The problem with random in team based games is usually the wide possible range makes some players unhappy and it makes it harder for the GM to plan the opposition level.

Posted by: Critias Sep 1 2013, 12:18 AM

For random-based games, I've been a fan of using one set of rolls for the whole team. Let everyone arrange 'em however they want to, but that gives a pretty level playing field, at least. In theory.

Posted by: DrZaius Sep 1 2013, 12:39 AM

I like the idea in concept; shadowrunners in general have always struck me as too powerful out of the gate (causing an arms race with the GM to balance encounters). I'll add a few notes:

1) I think there should be more mages. Being magically active (if you don't have a SIN, or have a criminal SIN) lends itself towards being a shadowrunner. They are uncommon in the general populace, but fairly common among shadowrunning teams (partially due to players wanting to play mages, and partially due to that being a useful skill to bring to the table).

2) To refine this concept further, I recommend you check out various OSR type character generation rules. In particular, I believe "Swords & Sorcery" is a free version; "Dungeon Crawl Classics" I think refines the concept to an art. In DCC, you roll your race, your stats, and your profession. Your profession comes with 1 item that you are skilled in. For example, if you are lucky enough to roll "caravan guard" you start with a sword, a "Slave" starts with a club and "an interesting looking rock". I believe you start with 1d4 hitpoints. Here comes the fun part: each player makes 5-6 of these characters. The first adventure is generally referred to as a "funnel". Once they gain enough experience to level up, they can choose a class; but before then, they are remarkably vulnerable. The idea is that you start with 15-20 characters, and through your first session the players end up with about 1 who actually survives to the end. Very fun and memorable.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 1 2013, 12:39 AM

I tried to do a Traveller like generation system for SR4.

It did not go well.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 1 2013, 01:35 AM

About creating a pedestrian. I agree that this is exactly what the OP's system is there for.

You probably have to adjust the whole game if you want to have fun with crappy starting characters, but it can really be loads of fun. Start the game as a pretty dumb, off-the-shelf corp dude, but have him become a lot more by developing him through a series of unlikely and unsettling events. He might eventually grow into a decently powerful shadowrunner! The key to me, would be to give very generous karma awards (or change karma costs to skills = new rating x 1 in karma, for example, or even give skills rating 1 as rewards), and eventually make sure they have access to interesting resources (through nuyen, or interesting gadgets). Let the players have their PCs grow into something much more, as they see fit. Bring back qualities like latent awakening where some dude turns out to have a magic of 1 after all, and let him learn gradually how to use it. It's just a completely different game of shadowrun within the same universe. Just think outside the box and all parties involved can have a blast, I'm sure.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 1 2013, 02:47 AM

Yeah, that's how I would handle it too, probably, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of the OP, which was to have the characters be appropriately fearful of the challenges that runners routinely face. It kind of undermines that when the GM holds everyone's hands and makes things fall into place for them by GM fiat. I do agree with the karma rules - unless early karma rewards are substantial (likewise cash awards, or the equivalent in augmentations), it would take forever to get a street-level schlub up to even beginning/wannabe runner level.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 1 2013, 03:12 AM

I agree, but I assume we're all veteran roleplaying gamers/GMs here. You adjust what you do to what you have in front of you. I agree that one way to increase the lethality of the game by having characters not as godly as they currently can be is one way to achieve this without ignoring the setting completely (yay red samurais riding military helicopters on every run, otherwise it's a walk in the park!). However, it makes no sense that anyone would even consider employing a schlub for anything outside of a retardedly easy run that involves killing off the schlubs at the end to leave no trace, neither in the corporate world nor the shadows (clearly no one knows of them yet).

You have to adjust what you throw at the characters otherwise there is no fun at all. Clearly, to have such noobs out on the street doing important things for some reason, means that something very out of the ordinary is going on (for them at least). And they should be getting better at it quickly. 'Better' not necessarily meaning good by shadowrunning standards. They will have a hard time, and death will be more likely, but at least everyone can have some fun.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 1 2013, 03:29 AM

also without being able to ensure there are the right people for the job, the GM has to run fairly vanilla encounters, If there is no decker, then there is minimal hacking to be done on the job, etc.

Posted by: RHat Sep 1 2013, 03:30 AM

AKA, the Missions Problem?

I am curious, though, whether the intent of the system is to produce Joe Average, or Joe Shadowrunner - the numbers for the two, after all, would need to be very different.

Posted by: Chrome Head Sep 1 2013, 03:44 AM

As it is presented, it is pretty clear to me that it is Joe Average, imo, not Joe Shadowrunner, since we have the population distributions of stats/races/backgrounds, not shadowrunner ones. Shadowrunners have higher stats (especially body and willpower? ), fewer elves and humans in proportions, more street level and SINless backgrounds, and so on. At least from my interpretation of the setting from what I've read.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 1 2013, 03:48 AM

well, since running is more or less turning to a life of crime, lets compare any of us as Joe Average, how many of us could say we could survive in the shadows if we needed to make money & this was the only option available to us? I personally might be able to become a hacker or something of the like, but I would need lots of training to do so. I would say it takes a certain type of personality to be able to run the shadows well & survive. Much like it takes a certain type of person to become a "good" modern day criminal who doesn't get caught.

Posted by: RHat Sep 1 2013, 05:42 AM

I will say that this can be interesting for putting together quick NPCs or getting started on a concept if you're not sure what you want to play - I might put together a digital GM's screen of sorts at some point, where something like this could be pretty handy.

Examples:

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 1 2013, 07:16 AM

so I went ahead & gave it a shot, here is my result, I named him Max:

Troll

B-7 A-5 R-5 S-7 W-4 L-3 I-4 C-4 E-3

Not awakened

National SIN, Middle

pretty beefy in the physical department, but still fairly low for a troll, could probably make a decent Street Sam or a Heavy depending on what skills he ended up with. Also...one stat had to be reduced due to racial maximums (cha down from 5 to 4), but 2 stats are also at racial maximums, so this would have to rebalance some way...either that or the GM has to tell someone that their lucky roll is pointless so you have to lose another point.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 1 2013, 07:41 AM

I agree that the attributes actually seem to be too high. A GM rolled 3d6 and divided by 3 (rounded down) to determine random attributes for random passer-bys then apply race modifier. That gives about 3 on average and you don't need a table to check.

Unlike Traveller, I think, you should have more options and less stages:

Childhood: (choose or roll d6)

1-3: You went to school. -> roll Logic + Charisma [3], if you succeed you get 70 Karma to spend on school related skills and a degree; otherwise you get 40 Karma to spend on non-school related skills

4: Hang with a gang. -> roll Body+Str [3], if you succeed you get 40 Karma to spend on gang-related skills and 10 Karma for gang contacts and 50 000 Nuyen in loot (used quality only); otherwise you die

5: train with a mage -> roll Logic+Willpower [4] or Charisma+Willpower [4], if you succeed you get 40 Karma to spend on magic-related skills and Magic 1 as a magical type of your choice; otherwise you get Arcana 3 and 30 Karma to spend on whatever you like

6: survive in the wilderness -> roll Body + Reaction [4], if you succeed, you get Survival 4, Magic 1 as an Adept and 30 Karma to spend on non-interlectual skills, otherwise you die

Coming of age trauma: ...

Young adult: ...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 1 2013, 03:44 PM

I brought my opinion, which was asked for. And NOT ONCE did I mention the table I play at. I mentioned the rules and the ability to make a character within those rules. You (generic, as I do not remember if it was you, exactly) were the one throwing around my table preferences. *shrug*

Again... Elements... Shadowrun has Elements of Random (The Priority table is nothing BUT random, in my opinion). It is indeed possible to play without Point Buy, I do it in DnD all the time, and I never said it was impossible to do that. Again, you are putting words in my mouth that were not there.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 1 2013, 03:46 PM

This... Entirely This...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 1 2013, 03:49 PM

Interesting thought (All get the same dice rolls). We do something similar, but with static attributes, assigned where you want. All characters have the same array. The Array varies depending upon campaign. Mostly Different Table for DnD than for Shadowrun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 1 2013, 03:52 PM

After many years in the Marine Corps, I could make a passable Mercenary. Not real interested in it, mind you, but I could probably do all right.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 1 2013, 03:56 PM

You could always use the Stages of Dresden Files/Fate System...

High Concept...
Trouble...

Where did you come from?
What Shaped You?
What was your First Adventure (Initial days on the Streets)?
Whose Path have you crossed?
Who Else's path have you crossed.

Not a bad way to shape a character, and the results turn out pretty well, in my opinion.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 1 2013, 07:58 PM

I think the glory would be that if you add a flexible skill and resource system, you can make schlubs...or shadowrunners...but with a canonically accurate basis for being. Not every sammie will be AGI 9-12, not every decker will be logic 8, and you may not have a single magical asset on your team. Your "Sammie" may have in fact started with averagish stats and just didn't have any other skillsets that promoted him beyond gunman. You may have to make do with what you have, and even outsource a bit.

Now, in that system, the GM owes a canonically accurate world. No HTR four combat turns after the shooting starts. No hood-rats throwing 15 dice with automatic weapons because otherwise, how would the players be challenged by my hood rats? Corp sec who decide, without once shooting at you, that the pay may not be worth this. It frees the GM form the tyranny of needing to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is now challenging enough. the KE shooting at with 10 dice on SA burst? That is now something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it scary.

Likewise, it lets you trully appreciate the value of 'ware or magic. When you aren't the most naturally gifted people in the world, all of a sudden climbing a few attribute points is truly, personally, precious rather than a mere cost of entry to the profession that is apparently inhabited by Rhodes scholars, Olympic athletes, and professional politicians and actors.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 1 2013, 09:17 PM

likewise, the runner's should not expect to live in anything but a low lifestyle, medium maybe if they all live in one house together, they will barely make enough money to pay for the ammo they use, maybe 500nuyen/job 1000 if they are lucky. Because they are not able to handle the big nuyen jobs until they actually become well skilled & can handle the bigger nuyen jobs.

Posted by: toturi Sep 2 2013, 01:41 AM

It is apparently so because shadowrunning is a very Darwinian profession. If you aren't a Rhodes scholar, Olympic athlete, or professional politician or actor, you are likely to be dead or very new to the profession, in which case you will be dead in short order.

The GM does not need to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is challenging enough, even if you are a Rhodes scholar, Olympic athlete, or professional politician or actor because you cannot count on every dice roll to come up with an statistically average score. You will have bad dice rolls, and that is something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it any scary.

Else you'd have to be lucky and roll statistically higher nearly every time to survive and succeed, you might have a canonically accurate world, but I'd be looking closely at your dice. And you could have also had a canonically accurate world, if as a GM, you did not feel the need to generate an artificial challenge.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 2 2013, 07:51 AM

I get through life and I am not a Rhodes scholar. I would actually say, I am doing quite fine (unless you give me minus points for writing on fictive online boards). Great job, jumping up the career ladder, nice work-life balance, wonderful family, ... I really can't complain. (If I had to, I would moan the shoddy child care infrastructure, although I don't see how more dice would have helped there. More contacts maybe ... )

In SR4 and probably SR5, Edge and player wits are by far the most important factors for survival. Even really talented and gifted people screw up. Usually at higher stakes than normal people. Having a one-trick pony in SR can be great, if you control your tactical environment, but if the GM is trying to get you, you have no chance. The same is true for balanced characters, if a one-trick pony manages them to get into a contest on their terms, they are screwed.

But this being a game and not a life simulation, or even if this were a life simulation, the real question is: what kind of story do you want to tell? A bunch of under-appreciated genuises fighting against other under-appreciated geniuses or some "real" characters trying to somehow survive the shadows. Traveller character easily grow on you, not because they are exactly like you imagined, but because they are so relatable. Not so much an ideal version of yourself, but a role you can slip into.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 2 2013, 08:34 AM

But that is the problem, Regular people don't survive well in the shadows, just like regular people don't do well burglarizing random homes to make a quick buck, they get caught more quickly because they haven't the slightest clue how to get past the most basic security systems unless they have dealt with them on a regular basis. Anytime someone calls for random joes in a situation, I simply ask myself if I could perform the function they would ask of the random joe, if the answer is no, or I would need some sort of specialized training, then random joe can't do it either.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 2 2013, 10:44 AM

Yeah, well that is why practically every Shadowrunner has some sort of spezialised training in their character story. Be that military, bodyguard, crime, security (private or public), Technical College, Martial Arts, wagemage, time spent in prison, whatever, ... Only some of the faces and the occasional mage are actual amateurs (and the TMs for some reason, but I guess being a TM makes sure you get to learn the skillz all by ithemselves).

On that note: I always wondered on how you get to be a fence or a fixer, but from a study I recently read, having an MBA or at least some accounting training certainly helps your income with that career. I here I thought those are just hard to get letters to put on a resume... But probably crime bosses read resumes as well. So, if you want to increase your chances to be a rich drug lord, you better finish high school and get a couple of years of college...

(The actual theory is that MBAs have to earn more in crime, otherwise they would go look for a better job in the regular economy. High education criminals are also the most likely to switch between criminal and regular careers. Surprisingly, the margin is often much lower than one would think with the added risks of going to prison, being shot by another gang and so on, but low level crack dealers rarely earn more than minimum wage, some even quite a bit less. I wonder how that compares to the danger premium on military jobs. Although my feeling is that the military pays quite bad, as well. At least here in Germany, they try to get you with free education and the fun to be had. This is kind of ridiculous, given that most education in Germany is free anyway. No denying the fun, though...)

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 2 2013, 11:17 AM

The way I see it, alot of Fences often worked in Supplys for militaries or other item handling industries, some even having legitimate business like a small shop to start off with. Because they knew people or maybe someone came to them one time to offload something, they started a bit of business on the side. Word gets around and other people bring things in or come to them to find those hard to obtain items.

Fixers have to know people and be known, putting the right guy together with the right job so usually the Fixer themselves usually has some sort of experienced background. Again they probably were doing jobs themselves and needed an extra body so contacted some folk and got the job done. Next time there was work the pre-Johnson probably contacted the guy directly, leaving the team build to his discretion. Time goes by and they are starting to outsource the work itself, acting as the fixer.

Posted by: thorya Sep 2 2013, 01:26 PM

Actually, randomly burglarizing homes, especially in poorer neighborhoods is really easy. Less than 15% of them are solved. Even less for petty theft like stealing bicycles or shop lifting. And computer crime has become more common for low end criminals, including scams, identity theft and even stealing money from banks. You can find the information you need to deal with most basic security online with a little work and it's probably the same with the matrix. Regular people survive just fine in the shadows. They just aren't hitting big corporate targets. When you play with regular joes, you're changing the scope of the game. Your targets are smaller, your jobs pay less, you have to plan even more carefully, your contacts matter a lot, and plan B is not to just shoot everything you see. Death may be more likely, but isn't that the thrill of it? To live long enough that you have the skills to actually take on the bigger fish? No one deals drugs for the minimum wage or less. It's because they think they can make it to the top and become Tony Montana or Al Capone.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 2 2013, 04:28 PM

As Thorya aptly put it, not only do regular people do just fine in the shadows of a non-dystopian, non-balkanized, comparatively low key, non-augmented US of A. Often times it is people who you would genuinely consider to be BELOW average who are the gunmen, the burglars, the numbers guys, the drug dealers. Force of will and sociopathy, whether found internally or cultivated environmentally, are often the driving factors behind criminal activity.

Arguments aside, here is the new normal distribution centered on a 3 rather than a 3.5.

Roll stats (base + 2 used as the mean for a normal distribution with each point being a standard deviation)
Roll each stat using the following. Downshift 1 level if the racial max is less than 6:
1-6: Base (Human 1 - this is slightly higher as it accommodates for all the standard devs that would be below base with the new left skew)
7-31: Base + 1 (Human 2)
32-69: Base + 2 (Human 3)
70-94 : Base + 3 (Human 4)
94-98 : Base + 4 (Human 5)
99: Base + 6
00: Roll Again
IF 1-98: Base + 6
IF 99-00: Exceptional Attribute

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 2 2013, 06:43 PM

Actually from the novels and source materials of the books, successful runners are usually not portrayed as peak of human perfection in attributes. They have skills and experience that make them successful. They are not perfect dude street sam, smartest person on the planet hermetic etc. Its just day to day experience in the shadows that help them get by. Yeah sure there are the dragon heart chronicles style novels out there but I don't think that is portrayed as the norm for successful runner. So average guy based rolls probably work well, you will get somewhat above average in a couple stats most likely and those will be your focus stats.

Posted by: toturi Sep 3 2013, 01:28 AM

They are not usually portrayed as the peak of human perfection. They are often portray as a cut (or several) above the usual. They are either talented, skillful and/or highly experienced. They are not perfect street sams, the best at what they do, but they are often protrayed to be not far behind and a step above the "usual" runners. When it comes to crunch time, it is not just their day to day experience that help them to get by, they have the edge, that's why they are successful. Dragon heart style novels portray the norm for successful prime runners.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 02:00 AM

And I will ask once again... What is stopping you from that in the Basic Rules? As a GM, you have the power to enforce that vision. Truly, I am curious.
Epic/Maxed out characters are not necessary in Shadowrun, to be sure, and I prefer the middle line (slightly above average Joe) with a lot of room to grow, myself. I like to hit Prime Runner at about the 250 Karma Mark.

Of course, Toturi and Thorya say it better a few posts above...

Posted by: Lantzer Sep 3 2013, 02:01 AM

Key words worth noting:

Successful Prime Runners.

How much of the shadowrunner population is that, I'm vaguely curious. I'd assume not a very big percentage, myself. I expect a lot more shmoes who work the lower end of the business. You know, clearing apartment blocks for the corps, getting murdered by bird-themed revenants and the like.

When I think of an "average shadowrun team" I think of that criminal gang hired by the crime lord in "The Crow". They were a highly successful dirty jobs team in the shadows, but nobody on dumpshock would consider them top of the line professionals. They consisted of a knife-man (Tin-tin), a seriously addicted gunman (Fun-boy), the arsonist team leader(T-bird), and his idiot brother (Skank). The only one of them remotely professional was the team leader, mostly because he was organized, businesslike, followed orders, and could keep his team in line.

The closest thing to a prime runner in the movie was the crime lord's bodyguard/enforcer. He was professional, methodical, & loyal. The crime lord was basically a fixer.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 02:07 AM

Sounds like a perfectly fine example of a Shadowrun team to me. And you are right... They are not top of the line professionals.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 3 2013, 02:09 AM

Tynaeus..yes, you could. You could set avail limits, and try to limit magic, and skill caps, and see how the whole race thing falls in. And you can stand on the lonely wall of GMery vs power creep. It can, indeed, be done.

And maybe..just maybe...if you get that group of players who all know each other, agree on the limitations of being canonically reasonable, trust the GM not to screw them, and won't deliberately try to max themselves within the new constraints to create characters which create over match so they can just go about secure in their safety, and then the GM stands benignly above it all walking the fine line between holding his vision and being an obstruction, OH and you get people over their magic fixation...you could swing it.

But, for everyone else, sometimes the enforcement of impartially conforming to reality is a nice touch. And so we have this.

Posted by: Lantzer Sep 3 2013, 02:12 AM

I was thinking of another movie with shadowrunners:

The Mummy Returns.

That gang hired by the cultists to retreive the box with the jars is a sort of victorian shadowrun team. One leader, one local muscle, one idiot brother (again).

The prime runner here would be Our Hero. He's gone legit, of course, and become a family man... but he's the same guy who in the first movie was being put to death for having "a very good time".

Posted by: Lantzer Sep 3 2013, 02:17 AM

More on the original topic, I don't have a problem with the set-up, but if I were trying something similiar, I'd find a way of inserting some meaningful choices in the path. My fondness for lifepath systems lies in the fact that it usually IS a path, rather than just a random character. Some randomness is fine, because stuff happens. But there should be some choices that help shape the character.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 02:17 AM

One quick observation... If your players cannot trust the GM, why are they even playing. Honestly, if that litmus test fails, then why is the GM running the game in the first place? It will be an antagonistic experience, from the start, that can only end badly... Of course, if there is a lack of trust, nothing you do to the system will actually matter, as there will continue to be an antagonistic relationship between the players and the GM.

And again, all the things you suggest are not necessary, except for the agreement on the canonical elements of the game. Once that has been obtained, then nothing else needs changing at all. Players will not make monstrous characters, because there is no need for such things... GM's will not feel pressured to create "unrealistic" encounters to compensate, and the entire "Us vs. Them" mentality disappears. You are right, though... The Players and GM have to trust each other for it to work.

I completely disagree that it requires exceptional players to achieve such an experience.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 02:21 AM

I have to agree here. My biggest issue with the suggestion is that it is trying to be promoted as completely Random. And that really does not work. There MUST be choice to create meaningful "relationships" amongst the happenstance of the "Random" Rolls. Without that, it is not a character, but a sheet of stats, with no life at all, and no real manner of linking the rolls together in a way that makes any logical sense. Yes... a Path is just that... A PATH, that the character follows while he develops.

Don't know if that really makes any sense (been a long couple of days), but there you go.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 3 2013, 02:23 AM

I will admit my SR experience is exclusively internet based. In the flesh, maybe there is a greater level of rapport. However, lots of internet games are basically open recruitment. And while you might trust the GM, in that situation most players tend to revert to "I better build a small bit of a monster..just in case..."

Posted by: Lantzer Sep 3 2013, 02:34 AM

I'm not sure where I'd fall on this one, TJ. It depends not so much on how exceptional they are, but how they get their fun.

My wife, for example, likes exploring a concept. She builds a total character based on a thematic hook, and fleshes out the character based on her history. She is always competant, but seldom overwhelming, due to her fondness for generalists. Her fun is in slowly developing the character into mastery, with a story developing alongside.

Contrasted to that is a very good friend who will pull out all the stops to follow a concept, sometimes leaving believable but gaping deficiencies in exchange for a unopposed mastery in his particular schtick. His fun comes from getting the most he can out of a system while staying in concept, provoking stories and kick-butt scenes along the way.

The others I play with are much the same to varying degrees. We all have fun, but it's a trick sometimes to keep the game well balanced. And occasionally I screw up and we have an unexpected TPK.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 3 2013, 02:38 AM

online random games tend to have one major flaw, no one goes into the game discussing what they want or expect out of the game, Most people who play online have a highly varied taste in game even in the same game style, If there was more communication with the GM on where the players would like the game to go & what sort of game play style is expected, monsters would need not be created, because they know monsters aren't needed.

Posted by: toturi Sep 3 2013, 02:50 AM

In the flesh or internet, I always build to as optimised as I can within the limits. It is better to have the capability and not need it than to need the capability and not have it. Just in case. I find that it is simply prudent.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 3 2013, 06:50 AM

The trouble with random character creation is that you don't get to explore a concept or optimize within a concept. You are stuck with what is essentially a crap shoot. And if you can't choose your own background, you can't even decide what kind of character you are playing. A lot of people have a general type of character they like playing - a thinking, scenery-chewing player won't like getting stuck with a dumb troll former dockworker/brawler muscle type, and someone who likes action won't like playing an ex-data entry clerk turned budding hacker.

Now, this proposed system got clarified a bit more when the OP added "if you add a flexible skill and resource system" to the description. But if you let people pick skills and resources, why bother with random Attributes and awakened status? All it seems to do, to me, is to make character creation more skewed, with drastically unequal characters. Isn't there already a huge enough gap between different characters, even when they are created with the same number of build points?

That's still fine if everyone is on board with it, but it seems more and more like the OP has created this system because of either bad experiences with previous groups, or dramatically different ideas about the game than his current group. Either way, it does not bode well. Introducing a new system that weakens characters and takes away player agency is something that will usually be a very hard sell.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 3 2013, 11:28 AM

IMO your concept is interesting but extremely problematic.

Regarding playability:
It's not going to work very well for people who are motivated by optimizing their characters. Since everything is random, there's just no leverage to appeal to these people. You're usually better off by negotiating restrictions/goals for those people and then let them optimize away within those.
Likewise it won't work with people who want to play a certain concept. You're effectively forcing them to play something they don't want to, which will only alienate your players.

Also keep in mind that there is an easy way to get rid of that undesired character (a.k.a. death - or even worse, group wipe). Doesn't even have to be a conscious decision, if there's simply no attachment to that toon they're playing.


That aside regarding the numbers:
You're working with raw probabilities, but you SHOULD be working with conditional probabilities, since you are inherently applying the condition "end(ed/s) up as a shadowrunner". Unfortunately there are no numbers for those, you'd have to extrapolate from unconditional with a bias towards survivability and incentive to run.

Posted by: thorya Sep 3 2013, 12:07 PM

Random characters really can work. I have done it. It may not be for everyone. It's about being willing to give up a little control (which most people are not willing to do whether they build DS approved monsters or characters closer to the book archetypes or completely ineffective builds with 100 different skills all at 1) and see the random character that was created as a story your stepping into rather than one you created. It requires trusting the players that they can come up with a life for that character and accept that most real functioning people don't actually fit a nice logical set of numbers.

It could just be that I mostly play with improvisers and theater people. They're willing to accept that they can work with randomness or characters they didn't create and still portray them in a way that is fun and establish relationships. In some ways its actually easier, because if you don't know everything about your character to start with, the group can collectively discover things about the characters that makes the team more cohesive.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 3 2013, 01:16 PM

I probably fall into the category that your wife falls into. I like having a good thematic hook, and I like plumbing it to its very depths.

And Point Taken, Lantzer. Everyone derives fun slightly differently. However, I will not tolerate someone deriving fun at the expense of my own. Nor will I pursue my fun at someone else's expense. And that all returns to Trust. If you cannot trust your fellow gamers at the table (or your GM), then the game is doomed right from the start.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 4 2013, 01:03 AM

I grant that this is not for those who want to optimize their characters. Or even be dumpshock marginal. It would, like most chargen systems, only work with people who wanted to play that system. I imagine you would have to recruit people eyes open.

And, yes, it does eliminate custom concepting. I think we can say without reservation that random generation of any sort means that if you had in mind a an elven quadriplegic social mage, or really wanted to recreate Max Payne, random is not the system for you. But if your character concepts seem to inevitably produce task-optimized characters with a back story that conveniently justifies it, maybe its worth a thought.

As Thorya mentioned quite nicely, however, it is possible to find a character concept without building it from scratch. The trick is you have to look at the being you were handed, and find a concept for their imperfection. And, mayhaps not having AGI 9 or Magic 6 because it was never available will be the ticket a few people need to actually tip them into a richer experience. For others it won't be.

Now, the part of your argument I value the most is the conditional probabilities bit. Because that is where I hit a recurring paradox. Because every condition I apply that makes a runner more suitable for being a typical chargen runner, makes them substantially more marketable to things not running, lowering the odds of it happening in the first place. Take your average mage or adept - even the street meat is valuable enough, per RAW, to be offered a cushy job. People search for them, harvest them, entice them into their organizations.

I suppose you could get around that loop by saying "but they are a runner, so there." Which bring us back to what is a canonically accurate runner to aim for in that case? I would tend to think they are an average to slightly above average guy, because if they were truly, truly exceptional, the odds are they are off the market..for every natural FastJack there's a thousand guys who sold out for a steady paycheck and the trappings of authority when the corps said 'stick with us, son, its worth a lot of money, a lot of recognition, and you have the full moral and resource backing of the system. Guys who have the skills and the will beyond what your average criminality can provide - because otherwise why not hire a go-gang or the Vory? And who use their heads and their legs a ton, because in their line of work they CAN'T just dicepool their way out. Good enough to overcome a challenge, but not good enough to mess up and shrug about plan B.

So, under that description, maybe we would have the old 3.5 centered attribute curve, a generous skill pack, and a touch of resourcing for the 98% that didn't end up magical.

Re: Glyph. No, actually I have fun as a player and occasional assistant GM right now in a ganger game - where I throw more dice than the canonically accurate rating 4 NPCs. As do the other PCs. And there is magic out the ass. And it is still fun and enjoyable. Its not a wild vengeful player/system/group smash. It really is a way to produce canonically accurate characters with imperfections and a more normalized distribution of statistics.

I suspect that, now that the initial math is done, I could skew the odds up and down the spectrum from 'retarded and physically deformed middle schoolers" to "these guys don't post on jackpoint because jackpoint is where the wannabes hang out." Likewise skills.

Which is the next step.

Posted by: toturi Sep 4 2013, 01:24 AM

In what line of work can't you just dicepool your way out? If you have to use your head and legs a lot, then you are in some way, shape or form, using some manner of dicepool without which you CAN'T use your head or legs. Using your legs a lot? Let's see if your character has the capacity to keep it up. Using your head a lot? Let's see if your character is smart enough to figure it out.

I am also uncertain what you mean by "good enough to overcome a challenge, but not good enough to mess up and shrug about plan B."

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 4 2013, 02:16 AM

In Random systems the idea is to make the stats look at them and come up with an idea for a character/background that would fit those stats and not build a characters background/character and then build the stats to fit that character.

So lets say I'm playing good ole 2e D&D and I roll

Str 18
Dex 9
Con 12
Inw 12
Wis 14
Chr 7

You decide to go with fighter roll % dice and end up with a 18/79 strength, you go human and think to yourself what made this guy be those stats. Bright arogant jock?, maybe he was a city boy and was picked on as being a scrawny nerd as a child and he started working out and practicing with weapons to escape the torment and some degree of self loathing, because he believed the taunts were true.

It is interesting and fun to see the skeleton(stats) and then add the meat(background/personality) to it making a full character.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 4 2013, 03:10 AM

I built a character in Traveller once. Spent about three years as a scientist, had (relatively) high charisma and said, "I'm going to try and become a noble."

Took three more years, but I succeeded!

GM was all like, "So basically as a scientist, you started DNA-matching yourself against various noble houses. 'Is this one a match? No. Is this one a match? No.' until you were finally successful. Congratulations, your experience as a drifter has turned you into a fine Dilettante."

(It was the only 'noble' profession I had good odds at keeping!)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 01:18 PM

What you describe, though, is not Random. You have Choice. Now, take those rolls, and then see yourself saddled with a Social Character with no combat skills becasue of the random roll. So, now you are an Expert (prostitute) with no physical skills, some random feats that will never come into play, and a smattering of knowledge skills; and no actual way to make a living in a DnD world, since you are at negatives to your core skill list, and couldn't survive combat in even the weakest encounter. How long do you think the character will actually last, in even the most mundane of worlds? You may have a high Strength, but your a liability in almost every way.

In your example, you played to your Strengths (no Pun Intended) and became a fighter. And then your decisions will inform the character from there.

So... your example is not Random in any way, shape or form, with the exception of some MINOR stat rolls. However, there is still a ton of choices that are made by the player, and not by random chance. And that makes all the difference. Random chance does not a good character make.

Real People (in the world-view sense) are not a compilation of Random Chance. They are the result of informed decision making.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 4 2013, 01:36 PM

I don't know, I do have to admit my looking this Good is mostly down to Random chance because if you saw the rest of the family, you would not be able to see where it came from.

Though I suppose you can argue that regular bathing and good grooming habits, which do count toward it, do count as informed decision making, but I still had a good base to work with.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 4 2013, 02:42 PM

I'm not convinced of that. In my experience the exceptionally gifted frequently have problems with accepting authority or fitting into rigid systems - especially those tailored towards mediocre people.

That's problematic in our world, a frequent solution is freelance work or funding of smaller independent companies. In a world dominated by pretty ruthless megacorps I could see that becoming more than just problematic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 02:45 PM

Indeed... I think it would be far more exaggerated an issue than in the real world, actually.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 4 2013, 05:26 PM

The only choice if you wold call it that I was picking a class. If I rolled class randomly and got mage the methodology would be the same. I'd design a personality and background about what made this 18 strength slightly bright guy go into magic and become a mage. You are basically saying if someone handed you a non-optimized pre-gen without any background or personality you can't design those things to make a complete character because those have to come first. I think that is bunk, it can be fun to have a random character and then come up with the whys that "randomness" isn't so random after all when making a background and personality.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 05:45 PM

I am curious... Why do you assume that I play Optimized characters, Shinobi Killfist? I don't.
What I do play are Concept Characters. Random does not play well with Concept.

Yes, you can try to backstory a random character, but I have found that such characters tend to make little sense if they are truly random (Hint: Most game systems are not truly random either, despite what people would have you believe; they have internal logic that creates something that makes sense). Your example of the DnD character above is not random. You choose the Class, which will inform your skills, feats and other choices (which you pick as a player). A truly random character, though, often makes no sense (those skills you ended up with do not match your Occupation/Class, and the feats (using DnD as the base example here) would likely come out of left field). So, again, make something of that. It is often imposssible to reconcile true randomization with any type of concept. And I do not enjoy trying. I prefer Concept first. I can live with some randomization (DnD is classic for that with Stats), but true randomization just does not work for me.

Now, being handed a character at a convention and developing a quick backstory and whatnot to match what you are given is not difficult or even onerous (and I am pretty good with that). And in fact, as you indicated, it can be interesting, entertaining, and even rewarding. BUT THOSE CHARACTERS ARE NOT RANDOM CREATIONS EITHER. The characters generally make sense, and you can generally see where the character's creator was heading with the design concept.

Make any sense?

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 4 2013, 08:50 PM

I personally can play any character you put before me. The question is, will I like the character. I have a tendency to give every character I make in every game I play a portion of my personality when I build them. This makes that character much more personalized to me since it is an extension of me in a way. You put a random character in front of me & I can create a backstory for them & play them, I just may not care if he dies, because I likely don;t have the same connection to him.

I have a tendency, when roleplaying my characters, to completely shift my frame of mind to these characters, I no longer think in "What would they do" no I think, "What would I do" & it makes playing the character much more fun for me.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 08:57 PM

Indeed... I do that as well...
Which is often a bit disturbing, as I discover something about myself (that I never considered or consciously knew) through roleplaying.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 4 2013, 08:57 PM

Yep, it does bring out the more fun side.

Even used to do this during regular miniature battles, had the various units have running commentary, cursing, screaming (softly at the table) as the dice were rolled and situation changed. Had one unit routed and had the commander unit try to rally them and return to ranks, which failed so two other unit called them out as cowards and shot the deserters down. (yes, could have tried rallying again in the next turn, but this was more in keeping with the theme of the army being played. Even earned a bonus vs routing for that one seeing as the remaining troops saw that they MIGHT die facing the enemy, but the WILL die if they tried running after that. )

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 4 2013, 09:10 PM

Optimized might have been the wrong term, built for a purpose maybe. And I basically disagree you can have a totally random character and find a hook that makes those random pieces click. Right now I am getting into a dark heresy playtest. I don't know a damn thing about it, I saw the background options, birth options, class options, stat ranges and rolled them all randomly. I read up on what I rolled and designed a background and personality around it. Does everything click in some organized fashion of built for purpose character building, not in the slightest. But most people in reality don't either, some things click along in a predictable path but other things don't. You can find a pattern in any random character and make a background/personalty that makes it a complete and fun character.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 4 2013, 09:29 PM

Dark Heresy...read the wiki on the universe at the very least, if your GM is versed on what happens in the universe in general you'll NEED that info to survive, the 40k universe is exceptionally fluff filled having had lots of time to accumulate information, I once made a character & had to study up on the Space Marines to find a faction that I liked that could fall into Chaos without actually falling into Chaos as a whole (I settled on a Space wolf of the 13th regiment)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 09:50 PM

Hmmmmm... Apparently Dark Heresy is not what I was thinking it was...

Posted by: thorya Sep 4 2013, 09:52 PM

Once again, it comes back to, you don't like to play this way or you cannot play such a character, so it must not be possible? It is fine if you don't like to play this way. Just like it's fine in this and every other thread that you don't play an optimized character. But saying that it will not work or it's wrong because you don't or can't play this way is asinine.

I have done random stats, race, and class (possibly even random spells, though this was several years ago, so I cannot remember) as well as random stats and powers in MM and was able to make concepts fit those characters. I would present you with more evidence, but I don't think you would listen to even more anecdotal cases where random play has worked.

Is it possible that you get some unlikely or nonsensical characters? Yes, which seems to be what the OP was trying to avoid by asking for input (rather than people telling him that he was wrong for even trying). You can get stupid impossible characters with point buy just as easily. In fact, I argue that most of the builds you dislike on Dumpshock would fit into that category, but you don't tell people that point buy does not play well with concepts.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 10:04 PM

Did you choose your skills randomly too? If not, then it is not truly random. Origin, background options, religion, and other "background" information are not worth worrying about. You can change all of that without drastically changing your core character at all. It does not really matter (specifics may change but the character will not) if you come from the Dales or Thay when you play a fighter in the Forgotten Realms. Or whom you choose to worship, or where you live, or even what languages you speak. That is all generally fluff (and yes, the fluff matters as far as the Personality/background is concerned, but has absolutley nothing to do with the mechanics of the build at all). What matters is that you are a Fighter or a Sorceror, or what have you.

Yes, I agree that I build to a Concept (even purpose built is not quite accurate, since I tend to not make decisions on what would be the mechanically superior choice, but on what would be the conceptually sound choice, even if it is mechanically inferior (which is usually is)). But, my concepts very rarely tend towards the Hyperspecialist/HyperElite. I like Generalists over specialists (even if I do tend to pick a primary area to concentrate a bit in...

Now, When I saw Dark Heresy, I envisioned something other than Warhammer 40K, so I cannot speak with any sense of authority or experience in that system, but it cannot be that much different from other roleplaying systems (assuming it is an RPG and not a Miniatures game).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 4 2013, 10:06 PM

And once again you are being offensive. I was asking a question and providing my viewpoint. You are trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say. Leave it alone Thorya.

Nonsensical character are the result of randomness, which I was commenting upon. Randomness is bad for concept characters. Live with it.
And point buy is the grail of Concept characters (You have complete and total control). So why would I tell anyone that it does not play well.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 4 2013, 10:07 PM

Ah, Dark Heresy. Got my copy of that floating around somewhere...

Posted by: RHat Sep 4 2013, 10:10 PM

Strictly speaking, purpose built is perfectly accurate - with the concept being the purpose to which everything is built.

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 4 2013, 10:29 PM

Yes and no.

You do not, typically get to make informed decisions on how smart you are, your genetic likelihood to become Lance Armstrong, or how rich/privileged the family you were born into is. Unless you possessed a particularly iron will and unusually free reign, your environment shaped a lot of who you became as well.

And right now, those are the only totally random stats on display in this system - which, as the title implies, is evolving with input. Even yours.

The trick here is making a canonically accurate method of applying skills and resources without blowing the entire idea of a "real" runner out of the water. That's first challenge in skills and resourcing., and frankly the biggest hurdle to this.

Maybe add in some background packages or some such.

It lies in also capturing the fact that despite the ability to make informed decisions, people sometimes make sub-optimal decisions. We've all met the guy who maybe should have chosen a different career. Or the fat person who knows all the ways to be fit but just doesn't do it. Or the lottery winner who ends up bankrupt in two years. So forth and so on. Just because he's a Sammy doesn't mean he'll spend two weeks a month at the range, or feel free to chop off his arms for those sweet AGI 9, STR 9 limbs.

Likewise any magical user worth their salt would realize their single greatest advantage - and likely their entire quality of life - is wrapped up in being good at magic. But that takes work. Ambition. Drive. An environment that supports them. And, taking a look at the world, their are plenty of very gifted people who piss away a lot of that potential because of the factors above or others.

How do you design a system that accommodates that?

Still, an excellent observation.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 4 2013, 10:39 PM

for an accurate depiction of skill, I still say creating a skill package is the best way to go, otherwise you'll end up with a hacker with no hacking skills & sammies who can only use pistols, or even a Magic 1 mage without spellcasting skill, once these packages are made you can assign random variables.

As far as any of the 40k games (there are several): they are more ingrained with the local lore than say...D&D or other such games, you play a space marine, you need to know more about the Space Marines & the factors that created them than you do playing a fighter, because those factors change with each faction & so you need to know what traits are passed on in your creation. same can be said for psykers & others as well.

Posted by: thorya Sep 4 2013, 11:43 PM

One point of clarification, Concept characters doesn't play well with randomness, only if you have the Concept beforehand. There is nothing about a randomly generated character that prevents you from having a Concept for the character. (stepping back a second I see what you meant, Randomness does not play well with picking things for a character to fit a pre-chosen concept, not that a randomly generated character can't have a unifying concept).

But, you know what, you're right. I don't have much patients for you normally and on 4 hours of sleep every night for the past 5 days just makes you more irritating than normal, so I'm going to drop it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 12:12 AM

I'll give you that... So, Hmmmm... Purpose built, but not Optimally built. Not exactly sure what you would call that, then.
So... yeah, I got nothin'.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 12:20 AM

Good Points... And you are right, your genetics are a lottery in which you play but do not have any input.
And I have no issues with that, honestly. Almost everything else is a direct result (good or bad) of a decision that was made somewhere along the way.

I also think that Skill Packages are the way to go. Again... PACKS (both versions) has a lot of excellent examples for such things.

System design is hard... Which is why when I do such work (occasionally contribute to at least one small independent company in San Antonio, though I have gotten away from it since I moved to Colorado), I generally tend to align my endeavors towards systems that promote a Points buy system rather than a level based progression. I like such systems because of their sheer versatility. Yes, they can be abused, and tortured well beyond their limits. And yes, I am guilty of doing so, in most cases to either stretch the system or break it. I like most games out there that I have tried, though each of them have their issues.

And I am rambling... so I will stop.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 12:21 AM

Well, I can honestly say that I have no experience with Warhammer 40K. I have Warhammer Fantasy, but not the same, I am sure.
Thanks for the information Dolanar.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2013, 12:25 AM

I will grant you that Thorya... Random and Preconceived Concept are incompatible... completely.

As for the lack of sleep, I totally understand. For the last 4 months or so, I have apparently been subconsciously punishing myself for something, as I average about 2-4 Hours of sleep per night (a week ago I had only a piddling 14.5 hours sleep (8 of which was in one night)). Some weeks, I don't sleep at all for days in a row (2 to 3, sometimes). So no worries.

Posted by: Trillinon Sep 5 2013, 01:57 AM

While random generation is interesting, it's not what I was expecting when I opened this thread. I was looking forward to seeing a character gen system where you build your character by choosing elements of his or her past.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 5 2013, 02:50 AM

The biggest problem with random Attributes, to me, is that Attributes are just so darn important in Shadowrun. They are a big component of dice pools as well as determining things like initiative, damage boxes you can soak, etc. If you keep them random, you might consider additional rules such as limiting how many Attributes of base 4 or better that you can get for a single character. Or maybe rolling a low Attribute gives you a slight bonus on your next roll, while a high Attribute gives you a penalty on your next roll, so that you don't have as many characters with nothing but low Attributes, or lots of high Attributes.

For metatypes - if you are making them truly random, and they don't cost anything, you might want to consider giving them actual negative modifiers, rather than merely lower maximums. In other words, give that dwarf a -1 to Reaction as well as a +1 Body, +2 Strength, and +1 Willpower.

For skills, I agree that PACKS-like skill packages based on vocation (data entry clerk, factory worker, street person, etc.) would be the best way to go. Maybe you could give the players an additional small pool of points to get other skills - maybe 20 points, no skill higher than 2, for example, so that someone with no runner skills can at least get the bare bones of, for example, pistols: 2, dodge: 2, and unarmed: 1. Also, you might consider giving everyone an etiquette of 1 (with a specialization related to their job) and perception: 2 for free, as skills that any man or woman on the street would have.

Posted by: mister__joshua Sep 5 2013, 09:24 AM

I played a game of Dark Heresy with one of the developers. I was disappointed they didn't know the rules, or remember the sample adventure, and they'd never played it. Kinda shattered my illusion of an RPG developer. Indeed in Dark Heresy (and WFRP from which it is based) character gen is random, I think entirely.


Onto this system though. I think it's important to get the right bits random. Race and attributes are genetic, so random is fine. Skills are partially natural, but also developed according to social, environmental etc. factors. Especially if the characters are running, they're going to equip themselves for that environment.

I think skills could be effectively done similarly to knowledge skills but with different values. I'd suggest as an example having skillpoints equal to attribute x 2 for each attribute, and the points have to be spend on skills linked to that attribute. So if I have 3 strength I can spend 6 skillpoints on strength linked skills. This represents the 'natural' part of the skill, and also the tendency of people to develop what they're good at (stupid people don't try and be hackers). The numbers probably need tweaking as I've just guessed at something reasonable to demonstrate the idea.

Also you probably want to edit the OP to reflect any changes. Currently categories are all still missing the 00 value

Posted by: GloriousRuse Sep 5 2013, 11:07 PM

Thank you, will do.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 7 2013, 12:08 AM

1 point to the idea that people aren't random. While it is true people don't really randomly decide on their path(outside genetics etc as discussed above) if you were to remove the reasons and just break people down into stats and skills people might look pretty damn random. Why did I get into weight lifting, well I needed to lose weight and dieting is not my strong suit so I went with muscle gain and got my body fat % down to a more normal level. If you just looked at my stats though there would be nothing to indicate why someone with my scrawny genetics has a above average strength. Is high blood pressure a non-random reason to get into shape, sure. But in Shadowrun land it might not make any sense on your hermetic mage preconceived build. But reacting to things like poor health does happen, they aren't random(outside that genetic thing) but they also don't fit most concept characters.

The fun in random characters is finding that hook for why the mage has that high strength, why he has a 1 agility etc.

Posted by: Dolanar Sep 7 2013, 01:46 AM

yes, but its hard to account for reactionary measures in a character build unless you build him from some sort of simulator that simulates his life ti that point, even with randomness.

but at the point you're talking about its more about rationalizing a feature of your person than calling it a quirk sometimes.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 7 2013, 02:06 AM

How does this sound?

All attributes start at 2.

Metatype:

1-4 Human.
5 elf
6 dwarf.

Early childhood:

1 Slums. You grew up on the streets, where only the toughest survive. +1 strength, body or willpower.
2 Street Rat: You lived through cunning and guile. +1 intuition, agility or reaction
3 Lower class: Your parents were wage-slaves, and not high-earning ones. Gain national SIN, low lifestyle and +1 body, intuition or willpower.
4 middle class: Your parents were Joe Citizen. Gain either a national or limited corporate SIN, Medium lifestyle and +1 Logic, intuition or charisma.
5 Silver Spoon: your parents were well off. Gain either a national or Corporate SIN, High lifestyle and +1 Logic, willpower or Charisma.
6 Born into privilege. Your parents were high rollers. Gain a corporate SIN, Luxury lifestyle and +2 to an attribute of your choice, but also reduce the opposite attribute by 1 (Body=willpower, strength=charisma, reaction=intuition, agility=logic)

UGE: Roll only if you rolled human for metatype.
1-3 nothing.
4-5 during your teen years you undergo UGE and become an Orc
6 During your teen years you undergo UGE and become a Troll

And so on, with rolls for various stages and events in your life either increasing or decreasing your attributes and skills. Thoughts?

Posted by: Glyph Sep 7 2013, 12:42 PM

I think UGE was an earlier phenomenon in the Shadowrun timeline. It still occasionally happens, but most orks and trolls now are the offspring of other orks and trolls. I think metatype would be better as either a percentage roll, or several d6 with metatypes as the outlyers on the bell curve. Even compared to the relatively numerous orks, humans should be far and away the most common metatype.