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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Aztechnology
Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 10 2013, 03:23 AM
Little late but have been going back over Stormfront and i have to ask what was the deal with Aztechnology being in three of the plot wrap ups and coming out ahead in each one? Im all for suspension of disbelief in favor of a good story but Aztechnology beating Sirrug, winning the war with Amazonia, and forcing their way back into Denver seems more like some one disagreeing with past plot developments and deciding to undo them as much as possible rather than moving ahead with a reasonable story development. The wrap ups even go so far as to say Aztechnology is in a better place than where they were before the war started. How is that possible? The way it stands now either Aztechnology takes over the world and becomes the Empire in name as well as in fact or they get set upon by every one and eliminated from the world as a threat no one can ignore any longer.
Like I said late to the party by about a year but was wondering if anyone else had that response when this first came out?
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 10 2013, 04:03 AM
I like to pretend that War! was non-canon. 
Posted by: Tzeentch Sep 10 2013, 08:01 AM
-- Geopolitically they are in a good spot. Not sure they really are ahead in every respect. They lost a lot of land in the north (that they traded away) for (as far as I can tell) useless land in the south, had a huge casualty count over the course the war, still need to deal with insurgents in and near Bogota (which was tied up pretty perfunctorily but that plot was getting dragged on WAY past its expiration date of interest anyways). They didn't actually kill Sirrurg. And why they want back in Denver is a mystery as there's nothing of value to be had there. If anything, them getting dragged back into Denver is a loss
Posted by: Blade Sep 10 2013, 08:05 AM
They can't take over the world: the FMC won't let them. 
Posted by: Voran Sep 10 2013, 10:29 AM
Frankly, I'm a little disappointed that we're now 5 editions in and its pretty much the same megacorps.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 10 2013, 10:35 AM
I'm not. If the fundamental pillars of the world economy are in flux or otherwise destabilized then the entire game changes.
I get that some change is good, but at that point we're talking something that changes the entire premise of the game.
That said, a spinoff game such as Shadowrun 2110, where the world has collapsed into a post-apocalyptic nightmare where the remnants of the megacorps have their own little empires carved out in the bug-infested wasteland and occasionally hire 'Shadowrunners' to recover old tech or destabilize rival corps prior to a land-grab might be interesting. Non-canon of course.
Posted by: Maelwys Sep 10 2013, 10:58 AM
I was personally surprised that Aztechnology survived the fallout from the Dragonheart trilogy.
I mean, here you have this corporation that actively tried to bring the Horrors across early. And almost succeeded. As in, actually created a bridge between the two metaplanes, and it was only dumb luck that the "runners" got the Heart there in time.
And yet, does Aztechnology suffer any sort of repercussions for this? (to be honest, I'm not sure, but I don't recall any).
Even if you argue that Oscuro/Darke could possibly be a rogue element inside of Aztechnology and world destruction isn't the end goal of the entire board of directors, that's still a pretty big cancer to have in your Corporation.
And even if you say Darke is gone at the end, that's alot of blood mages that are running around in Aztechnology. You see atleast two blood spirits that aren't connected to Oscuro, you see them using blood to conduct a banishment, and have formed a "Gestalt" Blood Mage that allows who knows how many mages to band together.
On top of that, they might have a Locus.
Is it just Apathy that stops the others from doing something? Inability to get more than 1 Dragon or IE to work with another? Can't tell the Corporate Court why you're hitting them that hard? (Ares: "So tell me about these Horrors? Which Metaplane did you say?")
It always seemed odd to me.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 10 2013, 02:37 PM
So... Make Believe in your Make Believe... Entertaining.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 10 2013, 02:40 PM
The Megacorps have shifted a bit over the 20+ years of Shadowrun. We have seen some come, and we have seen some go. But they ARE the big economic fortresses in the World.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 10 2013, 03:13 PM
*Shrug*
Hey, other people pretend that the Dragonheart Saga was non-canon.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 10 2013, 03:20 PM
Hey, other people pretend that the Dragonheart Saga was non-canon.
Yeah, that is true. I am not one of them, but that is true.
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 10 2013, 03:43 PM
Pretend?
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 10 2013, 04:39 PM
Hey, other people pretend that the Dragonheart Saga was non-canon.
I pretend Ryan Mercury gets loaded into a cannon sometimes, does that count?
Posted by: Nath Sep 10 2013, 04:45 PM
Storm Front actually gives good reasons to believe that a large part if not the entire Fourth edition only happened inside Fastjack's head, which had been daydreaming typing documents posted on Jackpoint under other names. This would explain the growing number of inconsistencies better than any other explanation. It's possible Jackpoint never existed at all and it only was Fastjack self-fulfilling fantasy of a data exchange platform that he wanted to be better than ShadowSEA. I guess it was the way his mind coped with the death of Captain Chaos.
Lately he started grasping reality again, but he's far from recovering. He acknowledged his split personality disorder, recognizing it wasn't the "real" Fastjack that was posting contents on Jackpoint, but the other personas he invented and to whom to "handed over" the node. However, at the same time he still displays strong signs of paranoia, blaming his mental disorder on some sort of nanotech conspiracy. His last paranoid episode already had him blaming Horizon for changes in the Jackpoint persona behavior, prompting him to attack Horizon systems.
Or at least, this explanation is as good as another.
Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 10 2013, 05:12 PM
Ok I am not willing to write off all or even most of 4th edition as Fastjacks delusion. That smacks too much of The "Dallas" dream explanation to get Bobby back from the grave. Dating my self a bit with that reference.
A question that came to mind from rereading Storm Front comments made several times about the possible fallout from the massive magic performed by Aztechnology, Amazonia, and Sirrug with the artifacts. What has that done and what may erupt out of Boggata in the near future to tear Aztechnology a new one? Or what has Aztechnology really been up to with the massive amounts of death, rituals, and corruption of the mana environment? After all these are the idiots who tried to summon the Horrors early for some unknown reason.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 10 2013, 05:42 PM
Lately he started grasping reality again, but he's far from recovering. He acknowledged his split personality disorder, recognizing it wasn't the "real" Fastjack that was posting contents on Jackpoint, but the other personas he invented and to whom to "handed over" the node. However, at the same time he still displays strong signs of paranoia, blaming his mental disorder on some sort of nanotech conspiracy. His last paranoid episode already had him blaming Horizon for changes in the Jackpoint persona behavior, prompting him to attack Horizon systems.
Or at least, this explanation is as good as another.
Which is horrible. If that is the way it goes, CGL can kiss my money goodbye.
Posted by: Voran Sep 10 2013, 10:19 PM
The hospital was in the snowglobe!
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 10 2013, 10:49 PM
As is just about everything else.
Posted by: Angelone Sep 11 2013, 01:11 AM
Stormdrake, I agree with you on the whole Azzie thing it's just too much. Just thinking about all the resources they used recently , they should be hurting not stronger.
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 11 2013, 01:53 AM
Shadowrun has always been completely economically illiterate with no concept of what resources are actually worth. I love how we went from one extreme of stupid, Dunklezahn's will causing big corporate conflicts over chickenfeed prize money, to the other, with random adult dragons worth 50 billion nuyen. Ooooookay.
Has anyone ever calculated what the total value of all gold in the world is vs. all the shit dragons supposedly bought with their hordes that should have depressed the price 90%+?
Posted by: sk8bcn Sep 11 2013, 09:03 AM
Fuchi disappeared, some others emerged, how many bigs should rise or fall in only 20 years?
Posted by: Wakshaani Sep 11 2013, 12:58 PM
Lots to unpack here.
First, 4th edition wasn't in FastJack's head, nor was JackPoint. I'll go ahead and wave an "As official as I can make it" flag ove rthat one until Bull swings by. It's a fun theory and feel free to embrace it if you want, but that's not the deal from the writing side of things. Just, you know, gettin' that out there.
Changing megas. In the very beginning, they didn't exist. 1st ed has 'corporations' but 'MEGA-corporation' as we know it slipped in there a bit late. Lots of small changes happened as the world started to be better defined; for instance, at one point, there was a megaplex that connected Boston, NYC, and DC, then kept on rolling down the east coast until it snapped up Atlanta. Just one big-ol' city the entire way. That got quietly painted over into multiple megaplexes that are large, some of which even overlap, but there's a LOT of space between DC and Atlanta that isn't, you know, ominous rows of skyscrapers.
As for the Azzies, they're in a weird place rght now, sort of a paper tiger. They lost a *ton* of military stuff, not just in terms of material but in manpower. They took losses, but casualities are vastly higher when you count teh seriously wounded and mentally shattered... Bogata had a couple of Shadow spirits active, for instance, and the general jungle warfare stuff is pretty terrible. Add to that what Blue did to several troopers and the general stress of multiple years of war and, well, the mental health isn't so strong. Big gambles against Sirrurg and Amazonia both fell their way, at which point they threw up their hands and went "We declare peace!" ... because they probably couldn't have fought much longer without losing everything they gained. You always want to go to the negotiating table with a big win fresh in your hand, after all.
Which brings us to two different things.
The corporation of Aztechnology is doing swell. They got paid a lot of money to help with the war(s), the world is beating a path to their door for anti-dragon technology (even if it isn't exactly reliable), and while they lost a MAJOR subsidiary with NatVat's destruction, there's a chance that they can rebuild and, even if they don't, they still have a pretty good selection of back-ups to start taking over some of the load. All the new positive feedback is driving sales in their consumer goods division, and teh R&D guys have new Amazonian plants to experiment on.
The nation of Aztlan is hurting badly. The military's broken and needs years to rebuild, they gained some land south of the border but lost a big swath to the north (Admitedly, it's mostly desert, but still), and the food situation is famine-critical. With Sirrurg out of the picture, it's expected that the food situation will improve over the next year or three back to normal, but they're suffering hugely right now. Getting a chunk of Denver back is more an issue of pride than anything else, but it hints at much better Aztlan-PCC relations in the future.
As for the gold standard, Lofwyr cares about it, but dragon hordes popped the bubble pretty huge. It's going to be something like 50 Nuyen an ounce, thanks to new sources from asteroid mining being slowly added to the world stock. The initial freefall after dragon hordes were introduced must have been fun to watch. (The current $1600/oz level is an abberation to say the least, but that discussion leads to real world stuff, so step lightly kids.)
Oh! And in terms of megas, Fuchi, the largest of 'em all, died. In and of itself, that's a *massive* change since they were the Matrix overlords, but since then we saw the rise and fall of Cross, the transformation of Yamatetsu to Evo, the arrival of Horizon and Wuxing, and 'soon' (As all those who read the computer game stuff know) another Mega will crash. Beyond that, Ares might break apart, Horizon's on shakey legs, MCT and Shiawase are gambling on a big North American push, and Lofwyr's been in a funk since Alamais was brought down and his corp's just not as cutting edge like it was while he sulks in his tent like Achilles. MightNeoNET (The former Novatech and once a third of Fuchi) take the top spot back from ol' Golden Snout? Are any AA-corps on the cusp of tearing a Triple-A down to make room for themselves? Will the Yamato Damashi movement result in another Japanacorp in the Big Ten, moving influence from west to east once again? There's a lot of churning going on in those board rooms!
Keep watching the skies, yo.
Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 11 2013, 05:05 PM
Wakshaani,
Thanks for the flag. I don't think any one was taking the "it's all a dream" idea seriously but you never know. I can see how Atzlan is pretty hosed which was why I was also asking about possible fall out from the major' almost "Ghost Dance" level magic that was carried out on several occasions with sacrifices and just the general death toll. Can we expect hordes of shadow spirits emerging around Bogatta or something equally horrible?
Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 11 2013, 11:52 PM
It looks as the only thing corps know how to do well is cause some disaster, then build some type of technological tomb to keep it just live enough to get a profit out of it.....
Aztechnology is only showing symptoms of the same behiavor. Maybe another AI will emerge as a result of the magic flux....
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 12 2013, 12:07 AM
Kind of glad the Azzies didn't get to get their hands on Sirrug when he was down.
Can you just imagine the blood spirit they could have yanked out of that??
Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 13 2013, 10:38 PM
See its that kinda thing (which they would so do) that has me wondering what is going to crawl out of Bogata and head north like Godzilla for Tokyo.
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 14 2013, 12:17 AM
I have a hard time seeing those two F15 shadow spirits in Bogata being killed by anything but a great dragon at this point.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 14 2013, 12:30 AM
Direct hit with a howitzer anti-tank round. 52P damage, -10 AP. Be immune to that, M*****F******!
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 14 2013, 12:37 AM
Back in 13 days.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 14 2013, 12:41 AM
Hit 'em again. IIRC don't they lose one force every time we pop them? In that case, just keep pummeling them until they learn their lesson. If not, introduce them to the technological wonder that is FAB III.
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 14 2013, 01:15 AM
By SR4 rules they keep coming back until you banish/disrupt them at the same time as destroying a copy of their spirit formula and winning a Willpower + Banishing vs. Force + Edge test.
Good luck.
Or an appropriately difficult astral quest followed by a fight against them at the end of the quest after you've been weakened.
Good luck.
Posted by: Jaid Sep 14 2013, 01:36 AM
not to mention you have to actually hit said spirits, which means they first have to materialize in a location that you have your artillery aimed at, and then prevent them from becoming aware at any point that said artillery fire is on it's way (otherwise they just pop back into the astral and enjoy the fact that they just made you shoot a howitzer at an orphanage or something like that).
Posted by: Nath Sep 14 2013, 11:03 AM
Posted by: Stormdrake Sep 14 2013, 01:26 PM
The explanation given was that Ghostwalker could have kicked the Azzie's butt's right out of Denver but if he did that he would have let the shadow spirits free to disrupt and twist the free spirits of Dwnver. If he had attacked the Shadow spirits the Azzie's could have then "possibly" slipt in a strike against him or his allies in Denver that would have been very destructive. I don't buy it as Ghostwalker when he originally showed up handed all five sectors their collective hats against military and magical assets at least the equal of what the Azzie's showed up with at the end of Stormfront. Probablly a lot less as the Azzie's just came out of multi year war that really put them through the grinder.
Anyway that was the explanation given. The best explanation of the explanation I have heard is that this was an attempt to undo cannon history that they did not agree with. Hope I am wrong but that is the"best" explanation so far.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2013, 03:10 PM
Anyway that was the explanation given. The best explanation of the explanation I have heard is that this was an attempt to undo cannon history that they did not agree with. Hope I am wrong but that is the"best" explanation so far.
There is a huge Difference between Surprise achieved (Ghostwalker when he took Denver the first time) and a protracted fight with the Military Might of a AAA Corporation that is ready, willing and able to prosecute a war with a Dragon.
Posted by: Angelone Sep 14 2013, 03:17 PM
Yes, but why go back? What's so special about Denver that you'd provoke not only Ghostwalker but the other treaty nations? Who haven't just come out of a long tough war.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2013, 03:24 PM
Pride? Hubris? Embarrassment for having been kicked out? Revenge? Probably other reasons out there.
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 14 2013, 03:49 PM
Yeah, Ghostwalker clearly had a huge advantage of surprise in his 2061 attack. It takes quite a while to mobilize and coordinate the armored and air forces that would have been able to do anything.
I'm less convinced the Azzies have really good reasons to spend a whole lot of resources on a return to Denver. I guess some of it is to avoid a precedent, and theoretically being in Denver makes them part of the North American political scene in a bigger way. Valuable, but is it valuable enough? It doesn't rank in the top 20 most ridiculous geopolitical things in SR, at least.
Posted by: Voran Sep 16 2013, 09:54 AM
Obviously Ghostwalker didn't have wireless enabled.
Posted by: Jaid Sep 17 2013, 01:45 AM
keeping the azzies out would actually be a big enough wireless bonus that i might consider turning on wireless for once 
edit: and would also go a long ways towards explaining why all the other megacorps are willing to put all of their incredibly valuable stuff on the matrix, given there really aren't a lot of other plausible reasons
Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 17 2013, 04:27 AM
edit: and would also go a long ways towards explaining why all the other megacorps are willing to put all of their incredibly valuable stuff on the matrix, given there really aren't a lot of other plausible reasons
Where else would they put it is a better question.....
The matrix looks as if its powered by the sheer uncountable user base. and they never bothered to seperate the technology into a developmemt base and user base too...
so...
Just touching the matrix is dangerous but its impossible to live without.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2013, 01:10 PM
"I drive a car powered by my own sense of self satisfaction."
Sorry. XD
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 17 2013, 02:17 PM
The matrix looks as if its powered by the sheer uncountable user base. and they never bothered to seperate the technology into a developmemt base and user base too...
so...
Just touching the matrix is dangerous but its impossible to live without.
Not impossible, just difficult.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 10:31 PM
If it were powered by my ego it'd be the most powerful vehicle in the world
Posted by: Neraph Sep 19 2013, 12:20 AM
Good luck.
Or an appropriately difficult astral quest followed by a fight against them at the end of the quest after you've been weakened.
Good luck.
I could do it.
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 19 2013, 12:32 AM
From what I remember of your game rules you could win against every statted GD and IE at once.
Posted by: Rubic Sep 19 2013, 12:44 AM
If you stat it, the players will kill it.
Edit:
Apparently, sometimes you don't even need to do that...
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/That_Guy_Destroys_All_Psions
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 12:45 AM
MRSI and AV howitzer rounds should do the job.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 12:53 AM
And really, it should be that way. At the end of the day, a Great Dragon is made of meat, not adamantine with neutronium armor.
Sure, they have a hell of a lot of magic, and if they're smart, a lot of technology, in their corner, but at the end of it all, they're still made of meat, and if they have stats, some player will find a creative way to kill them, assuming they're stupid enough to engage at all.
And really, why would you? Are you really so confident that you're willing to go claw-to-cannon with these nigh-suicidal lunatics? Even if you think you know what they're up to, they may surprise you, and if they surprise you in a manner to which you are unprepared, they might actually be dangerous. If they're really good and/or lucky, they could hit you with something you never thought to prepare yourself for, like sixteen rating 10 cutter/sutr nanite colonies. Or that round that hits you and doesn't do anything may actually be a tracking beacon guiding the THOR shot/cruise missile.
Even if your name begins with "The Great Dragon ...", do the smart thing: don't be anywhere near the fighting yourself. Just because you're ten tons and scaly doesn't make you immune to assassination. If you think it does, perhaps you should consult with The Great Dragon Dunkelzahn about the topic of draconic immunity to assassination.
Posted by: Slithery D Sep 19 2013, 02:03 AM
Sorry, you can't talk to him because he's tied up with the suicide hotline. But what would he know about assassination, anyway?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 02:01 PM
Indeed... Dunklezahn was not assassinated, He committed Suicide... Apparently the hotline was jammed with callers.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 02:13 PM
Or, just like how a cat when it falls tries to cover it up by acting like that was supposed to happen, the Big D WAS assassinated, but not thoroughly and his spirit then acted like it was a ritual suicide on our behalf just to look good because even Dragons pay homage to the Rule of Cool. 
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 03:06 PM
Ummm... Dunklezahn killed himself... how is that an assassination?
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 19 2013, 03:13 PM
See, it all depends on whether or not you consider the Dragonheart Trilogy to be canon (suicide) or not (assassination).
Hell, even if it is canon, most of the people in the SR universe don't know about the events depicted and still believe it to have been an assassination.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 03:28 PM
Hell, even if it is canon, most of the people in the SR universe don't know about the events depicted and still believe it to have been an assassination.
Exactly, let's not forget there are more than a few novels that played the edge of reasoning/canon, like Black Madonna which needed a few novels after to clean that mess up and change some parts to get things back on track.
Again, I am not saying it was assassination, but even if it was I wouldn't be surprised if the Big D could still capitalize on it to some degree for his own ends.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 04:17 PM
Hell, even if it is canon, most of the people in the SR universe don't know about the events depicted and still believe it to have been an assassination.
Belief, however, does not make it so... Fact is, Dunklezahn offed himself.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 19 2013, 04:31 PM
If and only if you consider Dragonheart to be canon. Some people don't. I do, because of Rule of Cool, but I don't consider War! to be canon (Storm Front I haven't made a decision on, but it feels like an extension of War!).
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 04:54 PM
Since it was put out by FASA, in the Shadowrun Universe, why would you not consider it to be Canon? Any such ruling would be a Houserule(?), and not a basis to form a common ground. I do understand people not liking it, though. But saying it isn't Canon because I do not like it is like saying the Ares Alpha isn't Canon becasue I don't like it. It Does not wash with me.
War! does not bother me as Canon (though some of the stories/premises have the capacity to offend, no doubt); I am still plowing through Storm Front, so no real opinion on that yet.
Posted by: Voran Sep 19 2013, 07:25 PM
Edit:
Apparently, sometimes you don't even need to do that...
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/That_Guy_Destroys_All_Psions
Wow, I'd reach across the table and throttle both the player and GM in this case.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 09:03 PM
Indeed... Pretty much an Epic Fail all the way around.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 09:13 PM
Actually, I think that player was kind of a hero, given that almost the entire group was out to get him, the GM was throwing around god-level NPCs like a dick, and he managed to bring down said God-NPC not once but twice.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 19 2013, 09:17 PM
Three times, actually.
1) Destroying the Plane of Force
2) Turned off psionics in his own demiplane
3) Mobbed the BBEG with ever-healing construct minions
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 09:17 PM
Heh... There is that too... The shenanigans that occurred are just not my cup o' Tea any longer. Of course, many years ago (Early 90's), I did something similar with a Champions 4th Edition game, when I was told that there was no way that I could create a a 200 Point character that could not be controlled. Challenge Accepted... Did not take long for THAT idea to be disabused. Was asked to not play Champions with that group again.
Posted by: Voran Sep 20 2013, 12:32 AM
I've always felt: NO GAME is better than SHITTY GAME. I've heard horror stories like that and went, "Why were you playing with them in the first place?"
I mean, play with yourself instead.
....wait
Posted by: Neraph Sep 20 2013, 02:32 AM
... You mean the literal explanation of the rules? I'm simply more creative than many people. And no, not all GDs and IEs at once. Maybe not even all of them in sequence. But two F15 spirits? Yeah, I gots dis. And maybe (probably) one GD.
Edit:
Apparently, sometimes you don't even need to do that...
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/That_Guy_Destroys_All_Psions
Actually: radiation exposure, thor shots, and nuclear weapons are things that simply state that a thing dies outright. No stats still dies because it's a kill effect.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 20 2013, 04:37 AM
Except that with Twist Fate, the GD is pretty protected from stuff like that.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 04:55 AM
Twist THIS! *fires death star*
Posted by: DMiller Sep 20 2013, 05:16 AM
Edit:
Apparently, sometimes you don't even need to do that...
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/That_Guy_Destroys_All_Psions
I liked what this guy did. The group truly didn't want to add anyone else to their group, why they advertised for someone is beyond me. I think the player did everything right, the GM and other players were out of line.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 05:58 AM
Gotta agree. Also, points to him for doing the whole thing with consistent characterization.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 20 2013, 07:19 AM
I agree; Twist Fate is a bullshit game mechanic that makes me see red.
If you're not big and scaly enough to survive on your own, you don't get to break the normal mechanics of the game for everyone else in order to force your survival. This isn't Call of Cthulhu, you don't get to automatically eat 1d4+1 Shadowrunners per initiative pass.
If you're a Great Dragon and you piss off the entire world badly enough for a major warfighting power to declare open season on you and you then get into an open field battle against them, your life is now in the hands of the dice, same as with everybody else.
Frankly, I hate the Azzies, but I'm glad that somebody put the Great Dragons officially on notice that they were not the dominant species on the planet anymore.
Yeah, that GM was being a pure asshole, not shutting down Psychic Rape Boy hard and fast, and not shutting down the PKing and intraparty conflict the moment it started, and especially when he let one of the other players attempt to PK the wizard by BBEG. And then he was extra asshole, when he not only went along with the other player's asshole attempt to murder the wizard with the BBEG, but then retconned the BBEG's death twice (and shut down what would have been a second repeat of his first death by fiat,) rather than, say, awarding the wizard his 6,144,000 XP and figuring out where to go from there.
Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 08:03 AM
Because one is a novel, the other is a sourcebook for a game. If they want stuff to be canon, they'd better put a summary into an actual sourcebook, else I'll happily ignore it.
Posted by: sk8bcn Sep 20 2013, 08:20 AM
There's one thing strange about you Shadow. Everytime you discuss about great dragon, it's nigh like it's real fact. When it's just about how the set of authors perceive the universe.
If I was the lead-designer, GD would pull strings in the back. And those strings would induce shadowruns.
And not god know why epic battles.....
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 20 2013, 08:34 AM
This.
Because I'm the one thing in the world that trumps the authors: the Game Master. Whenever I'm speaking, I'm speaking of how things are in my game.
And not god know why epic battles.....
Aye, that's how smart GDs should behave. Exposing yourself to violence means that those who are inclined to use violence will, and those are capable of employing more violence than you have the means to counter will turn you into a schmear of expensive exotic reagents in short order. Or just regular old viscera, if you're not made of magic; either way.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 08:59 AM
It is a good point to remember. The novels are sort of guided by the game, but not entirely limited to it.
Stackpole's Wolf Character from 'Wolf & Raven' is a good example of this.
He wrote this back in the early days when FASA had the reins so you would think everything in it was canon, but even Stackpole admitted that there was no real guidelines for what a shapeshifter/werewolf was or what it could and could not do, so he winged it and created Wolf on the fly doing what fit the Rule of Cool.
Even today he does not quite fit neatly into the rules as they are. True shapeshifters are awakened animals who can take a human form, but Wolf was actually Human who was blessed by the WOLF spirit (mentor?). A minor point but again it strays from classic canon regarding the shapeshifters. His transformation abilities come closer to the spell, especially in one fight where he takes a hybrid form combining both man and wolf features to maximize his fighting ability. A normal shapeshifter would not be able to do this (SR shifters don't have the hybrid form like WoD versions do).
I will admit that the Dragonheart series was probably intended to be canon, but it was such a mess I can understand why many players would rather forget about it, sort of like Highlander 2 (alien prisoners? seriously?)
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 20 2013, 09:11 AM
*points at the remains of the moon*
how did you even manage to miss the planet with me on it and hit the moon instead?
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 09:14 AM
how did you even manage to miss the planet with me on it and hit the moon instead?
AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH
I was still making payments on that!!
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 09:21 AM
It's fine. It's not like I'm going to run out of ammo before you run out of edge.
Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 10:33 AM
Well, the time until you can fire a second shot is enough for the GD to summon a spirit of man that resembles a wannabe Jedi in an X-Wing
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 10:46 AM
Wonder if a TM could brick the Death Star
I mean R2 was streaking through that system, locating folk, shutting down minor systems like trash compactors.
Granted some systems were wisely kept separated, but still....
Use the Resonance Luke!
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 11:08 AM
I doubt dragons are that familiar with pop culture. Why would they care what the monkeys made before they, the centers of the universe, came back?
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 20 2013, 11:17 AM
Dragons are Familiar with everything.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 11:18 AM
So they say. You believe them?
Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 12:23 PM
And I want a Dragon Familiar now!
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 20 2013, 12:33 PM
If you've got the Death Star 2, you don't need to crank up for the full-power planet-shattering-kaboom blast. You can crank out the smaller, annihiliate-a-heavy-cruiser-in-one-shot composite blast and spam it until every GD on Earth runs out of Edge. It fires once a minute - they can't regain Edge that quickly, and then you can simply initiate Base-Delta-Zero with the lower-powered blasts. Or crank up the earth-shattering-kaboom, you know, whichever.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 12:41 PM
I think I'd spam until the dragons ran out of edge, then tell the monkeys that I'll blow up the planet if they don't deal with the damn lizards themselves.
Then I'll sell the results on PPV. Gotta recoup the price tag on the deathstar somehow, right?
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 20 2013, 12:45 PM
Then I'll sell the results on PPV. Gotta recoup the price tag on the deathstar somehow, right?
Nah. Since you're flying around in the Death Star, clearly you're already the Empire. So you politely inform them that the planet Earth is now under Imperial rule, effective immediately. Any resistance will be dealt with harshly; effective resistance will be dealt with expediently (IE, from orbit.)
Dragons are fun to shoot. They're even more fun to make work for you.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 20 2013, 12:49 PM
Dragons are fun to shoot. They're even more fun to make work for you.
Actually I stole it. Don't tell Palpatine, it's probably in violation of his restraining order against me.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 20 2013, 01:06 PM
I'm sure if you looked in the right places you could get one.
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 20 2013, 01:07 PM
Stackpole's Wolf Character from 'Wolf & Raven' is a good example of this.
He wrote this back in the early days when FASA had the reins so you would think everything in it was canon, but even Stackpole admitted that there was no real guidelines for what a shapeshifter/werewolf was or what it could and could not do, so he winged it and created Wolf on the fly doing what fit the Rule of Cool.
Even today he does not quite fit neatly into the rules as they are. True shapeshifters are awakened animals who can take a human form, but Wolf was actually Human who was blessed by the WOLF spirit (mentor?). A minor point but again it strays from classic canon regarding the shapeshifters. His transformation abilities come closer to the spell, especially in one fight where he takes a hybrid form combining both man and wolf features to maximize his fighting ability. A normal shapeshifter would not be able to do this (SR shifters don't have the hybrid form like WoD versions do).
I will admit that the Dragonheart series was probably intended to be canon, but it was such a mess I can understand why many players would rather forget about it, sort of like Highlander 2 (alien prisoners? seriously?)
Wolf always statted out to me as a Mystic Adept with a fun take on things. He casts a healing spell at one point as well.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 01:27 PM
Yeah, Mystic Adept with Wolf Mentor always struck me as closest. When he jazzes up the reflexes I figure its the adept powers being turned on, cuz he mentioned it was like a switch.
I loved the banter between Wolf and WOLF, that strikes me as what a mentor spirit should be like.
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 20 2013, 01:31 PM
A very, very grumpy and homicidal mentor spirit, yes.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 01:38 PM
But he likes baseball (now) so it's all good.
Posted by: Grinder Sep 20 2013, 02:22 PM
Back to topic, please.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 20 2013, 10:55 PM
Ignorance does not make it non-Canon. *shrug*
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 20 2013, 10:58 PM
Indeed, that Is how I always saw him as well. Wolf is fun indeed...
Too bad that Doc Raven and Gang have not been consulted on what to do with the Azzies.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 11:09 PM
I would not be too worried by the recent string of 'wins' for the Azzies just yet.
Yes, they have shown off some nice anti-dragon tech, but I am sure a few other corps have been running similar programs.
Right now I wager a lot of people are just sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop, as in how are the dragons going to respond in general to this?
Of course, since dragons operate on a different time table than most, we could be looking at plans taking generations to come to fruition.
But in the meantime, expect a lot of shadowwork as everyone will be wanting schematics for the new toys.
Plus we still don't know the full effects of the Blue 22826 and that may well bring it's own woes to come to roost with them.
Posted by: shonen_mask Sep 21 2013, 11:00 AM
Too bad that Doc Raven and Gang have not been consulted on what to do with the Azzies.
You can pretend no wrong doing. Like the other corps...
Posted by: Rubic Sep 22 2013, 07:03 AM
I'd say it'd be appropriate for the return of the Big D, but I just don't think they could do him justice in-game, without falling to the temptation to go "He was just a ginormous, manipulative bastard all along and there was nothing noble, myah!"
I'm also concerned that some among the creative staff will fall to the DBZ-esque escalation of power paradox. If things in a dystopian world are getting too organized and too powerful, then the best route to maintain status quo isn't to kick it up to 11, but to tear it back down to 5. The world, economy, society, life in general follows a sort of cyclical rhythm. Rhythms of success, and rhythms of failure. Rhythms of gain and of loss. Some established power structures are showing significant cracks in SR5, moreso than in SR4. Aztechnology possibly overextending themselves against Ghostwalker over an issue of pride, Ares Macrotech losing in one of their signature markets while infighting damages the power structures, signs that bugs and/or horrors are on an upswing, etc.
The corps will be struggling not to cave in under their own respective and figurative weights. Shadowrunners symbiotically NEED those corps to survive and infight. What would happen if the AAA giants collapsed, leaving a multitude of A-grade-or-less corps and former subsidiaries to fight amongst themselves and pick up the slack? While the Dragons aren't particularly disposed towards humans, as a general rule (with some exceptions), they ARE interested in surviving the next great Age of Rocks-Fall-Everybody-Dies, and the current corps tend towards being their tools for augmenting their survivability (I hear Lofwyr is partial to a lunar getaway).
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 22 2013, 08:12 AM
But that tends to fall into the myth of 'Too big to fail' where we get convinced everytime some megacompany steps in it and then demands to be bailed out because if they go under they swear it will drag others down with them...The Airlines and Banks are good examples of this.
Yes, Mega represent a bit more coordination, but to say that we NEED AAA's instead of just A's to operate is the worst kind of fallacy.
Plus the Dragons have probably noticed that when the corps reach AAA they start to believe their own hype and think they ARE essential and therefore better than the rest, which makes them chafe if someone as silly as governments/dragons/other groups try to tell them what to do. Having them broken up a bit more actually can make them more malleable to external manipulation as they are not quite so stuck on themselves as to believe they can operate in a bubble of their own making. The classic keiretsu operates up to a point interweaving those companies to make a greater whole, but even then they can fall prone to inner rot that is amplified at the mega level.
The Dragons would probably prefer most of the AAA's knocked down a notch or two, just to have that much less potential opponents, leaving them in smaller bite sized pieces for them to swoop in on when they want while the monkeys squabble among themselves with the infighting. Up until now it has been tolerated, but with the Azzies bloodying some noses and the metahumans realizing that maybe dragons are not the end all ubercritter and can be taken down, they will want to disassemble some of that organization a bit so if push does come to shove it will not be as organized as what the AZ pulled off.
Shadowruns will still go on even at the A levels, indeed in actuality we are doing A level runs as most of the time your not breaking into Lofwyr's main facilities in Germany, but those A level businesses he has under his umbrella.
People will always want to cash in on other people's work, sabotage said other work, play their little power games and such, and that means work which is where we will be.
Posted by: Rubic Sep 22 2013, 04:55 PM
Plus the Dragons have probably noticed that when the corps reach AAA they start to believe their own hype and think they ARE essential and therefore better than the rest, which makes them chafe if someone as silly as governments/dragons/other groups try to tell them what to do. Having them broken up a bit more actually can make them more malleable to external manipulation as they are not quite so stuck on themselves as to believe they can operate in a bubble of their own making.
*SNIP*
More malleable to, say, Horrors and Bug Spirits? Less able to cooperate against the coming threats that GD's blanche at? But wouldn't that make the world even more... dystopian?
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 22 2013, 05:35 PM
The intent was more malleable to dragon's and their manipulations.
I am curious where you believe being AAA means its all group hugs and singing Kumbiya in the board rooms. A good chunk of the runs you will be hired for are internal matters, pitting one department against the other or sometimes a lower exec trying to make space above by outing a senior exec via runners. The Villiers are a good case of this as they may be in the same corp but they are not necessarily working to the same ends, as a few runs can show...
Horrors are not known for being subtle so most options for manipulations are lost on them, though a few do enjoy playing their games, but these tend to be the exception and not the rule. most are little more than beasts razing and scouring the land of all life, intelligent and otherwise.
Bug spirits, they are sneaky and manipulative. But considering the tales that a certain AAA is embracing using them as new tech, they don't need to manipulate a bunch of scattered A's and AA's, they are being brought in via the back door by a AAA itself. And it will bite them on the ares..err.. arse. Just another reason to show that the AAA's are not necessarily going to be our best line of defense in and of themselves. Hell, I don't doubt that there will be bean counters in each of them that will be trying to cut deals for themselves, sort of what some sections within the AZ (oh look.. another AAA) were doing. Granted with the Smoking Mirror taking a kick to the groin they are not as prevalent as before, but no one should believe they are down and out for the count.
The various bean counters will be thinking they can negotiate with some of these things, because that's they have been bred to believe- everything has a price or can be negotiated and that they will sell out their own mothers and the rest of the world to secure that spot for themselves.
I am not saying that the level of organization that a AAA can bring to the table won't be useful in the coming fight. It will be, but under the current mindset most of the corps have now, I do not believe they will be any more likely to suddenly cooperate than a myriad of A's and AA's will be in the face of a common foe.
How do you improve that mindset? That would be the 64K nuyen question. Horizon's method is still just a bit too creepy, and these are the closest we have currently for anything approaching a 'nice' corp.
Posted by: Grinder Sep 22 2013, 05:38 PM
You need to invest Karma to raise your Knowledge: Earthdawn skill.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 22 2013, 05:44 PM
Certainly there were the few Named ones who did play their games and some species that took delight in causing suffering, but there are just as many tales of the hordes of raving creatures that destroyed the lands with no attempts at subtlety or trickery. They don't stand out as much since they were more like a storm in their passing, while we remember those who played cat and mouse with metahumanity.
Posted by: Voran Sep 22 2013, 09:12 PM
Things I'd like to see. MCT/Mitsuhama inadvertently take their covert/less-than-public actions against the Meta-loving Emperor too far and get smashed, not so much by the State, since it doesn't really have the power to do so, but some local powers that want to disrupt the hold of the MCT-allied Yaks, as well as MCT dominance. Some infighting, along ideological issues, a civil war within MCT would be nice too.
Posted by: Angelone Sep 22 2013, 09:25 PM
I'd like to add a dust-up with Yakashima (the takeover king) after they smell the blood in the water.
Posted by: Chinane Sep 24 2013, 10:06 AM
Ignorance?
The purpose of a source book is to give gaming and background information.
The purpose of a novel is to tell a story, nothing else.
I found that frequently the writer's priority - as it should be, since he is writing a godamn novel - is on telling a decent story (no matter his actual success with that) and NOT on seemlessly fitting that story into the respective game world. Frequently you will find that a lazy writer has an inadequate level of familiarity to write for the brand in the first place, which does not prevent a company from publishing his book.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 24 2013, 02:40 PM
The purpose of a source book is to give gaming and background information.
The purpose of a novel is to tell a story, nothing else.
I found that frequently the writer's priority - as it should be, since he is writing a godamn novel - is on telling a decent story (no matter his actual success with that) and NOT on seemlessly fitting that story into the respective game world. Frequently you will find that a lazy writer has an inadequate level of familiarity to write for the brand in the first place, which does not prevent a company from publishing his book.
Which does not prevent that publication form being Canon. It just means that Canon can become muddled.
As a result, Unless otherwise indicated by Publisher, Published Novels and Resource Material are Canon. Personal preference does not really play into that. Now, individual gaming tables can ignore the things they do not like at their table, but that does not make them any less Canon.
Posted by: Tzeentch Sep 25 2013, 12:01 AM
There's a hierarchy of canon. Generally the sourcebooks trump novels if details conflict. And some events from the novels have only been vaguely hinted at, if mentioned at all.
Posted by: Rubic Sep 25 2013, 12:55 AM
So... does geography and natural law trump sourcebooks? *coughBogotacough*
Posted by: Jaid Sep 25 2013, 05:35 AM
no. a wizard did it
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 25 2013, 12:53 PM
Damned Wizards...
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 25 2013, 01:34 PM
Not of the Coast though. Seeing how Bogota is up there in the Mountains and all . .
Posted by: Fiddler Sep 25 2013, 01:35 PM
Wait a second Xena can't fly!
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 25 2013, 01:36 PM
Lucy Lawless can.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 25 2013, 01:48 PM
Indeed, but I was always more partial to the ROC... Being from Texas and all...
Posted by: Fiddler Sep 25 2013, 02:43 PM
Oh ok...
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 25 2013, 02:57 PM
http://superman-t-shirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/lawless-lucy.jpg
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 25 2013, 03:12 PM
Nice...
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 25 2013, 04:19 PM
Wanted to post the one where she is tearing open the blouse to show the Big S underneath, but she forgot to put it on, thus resulting in a wardrobe malfunction and hence NSFW.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 25 2013, 04:44 PM
Would love to see that one.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 25 2013, 05:31 PM
Seconded. PM?
Posted by: Tzeentch Sep 25 2013, 10:11 PM
Generally, yes. But there's a few points of oddness that may or may not be canonical differences in geography. e.g. the location of Boise, coastline changes in California, incompatible borders in Shadows of Europe and Sixth World Atlas, etc. I've described some of these in my mapping thread.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 25 2013, 10:23 PM
It's a conspiracy by the GDs and IEs to hide something. Whatever it is, it's big.
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