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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Hardened Armor example
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Sep 16 2013, 06:44 PM
I found and cleaned up the example I used to sell Hardened Armor for SR5. It made me chuckle, and considering how today's going, that's a good thing. I shall share it with you now.
= = = Here Be Example = = =
This example is using SR4 skills, skill levels, and gear, since we didn’t have the SR5 equivalents just yet, and besides, it was to sell the concept for SR5.
Opponent 1 is a juggernaut. For purposes of this example, he has a Body of 17, a Reaction of 5, and a Hardened Armor score of 12 (actual numbers will change when the critter is converted to SR5, but this will do for an example).
Opponent 2 is a street sam type with a Predator IV and a Panther XXL cannon. For purposes of this example, he has an agility of 4, a smartlink, a Pistols skill of 5, and a Heavy Weapons skill of 4.
For ease of reference, the relevant stats for a Predator IV are DV 5P and AP -1, while the Panther XXL has DV 10P and AP -5.
Our scenario begins with Opponent 2 rounding a corner to find Opponent 1 eating his Harley Scorpion (and juggernauts are, you’ll remember, both big enough and stupid enough to do this). Taking exception to this monstrosity eating his ride, Opponent 2 pulls his Predator IV from its holster, aims, and fires at Opponent 1. He has a total of 12 dice for this attack (4 Agility, 5 Pistols, smartlink, and he takes an Aim action). He gets 4 hits; Opponent 1 gets 1 hit for his Reaction to avoid being hit. This gives Opponent 2 a total of 3 net hits.
The Predator, intimidating as it might be to a humanoid opponent, has a DV of 5P; the net hits give him a modified DV of 8P. With its AP of -1, the effective Hardened Armor value of Opponent 1 is 11. This is greater than the weapon’s DV; the round strikes Opponent 1 solidly on its side and bounces off, much to the annoyance of Opponent 2. Opponent 1 does not notice this irritation and continues munching on the motorcycle.
Realizing his folly, Opponent 2 holsters the pistol and pulls the Panther off his back. This time he has 11 dice (4 Agility, 4 Heavy Weapons skill, smartlink, and the Aim action). Aiming the cannon, he braces and fires. He does nicely for himself, scoring 6 hits out of his 11 dice.
Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his Reaction test to avoid being hit; this gives Opponent 2 a total of 4 net hits. The DV for the Panther is 10P, modified by net hits to 14P, with an AP of -5; this gives Opponent 1 an effective Hardened Armor rating of 7. The Panther round hits, penetrates, and does damage.
Base damage at this point is 14P. Opponent 1’s armor is Hardened Armor, with a modified Armor Value of 7. Opponent 1 will roll 24 dice to reduce damage (17 Body, 7 for modified Hardened Armor value). He gets an automatic 4 hits for his modified Hardened Armor value, and then rolls his 24 dice. He gets an average roll of 8 hits. This is a total of 12 hits, reducing the damage to 2 boxes. On the other hand, Opponent 1 now notices Opponent 2, drops the motorcycle scraps, and turns his attention to his new favorite snack food.
Hilarity ensues.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 09:41 AM
I really like that example.
Could we give 5th edition Juggernauts a minimum of 18 hardened armour (prefer 20 if possible) to keep players suitably scared?
Posted by: Surukai Sep 17 2013, 01:13 PM
Problem is that automatic fire and some weapon combos obliterate just about anything anyway.
I buy a stock GMC crusader small drone (Arsenal), attach a supermach 100 (Arsenal) and load it with Stick'n'Shock (Corebook). I now have a <6k nuyen drone that can laugh at Juggernaughts.
Say he rolls 3 hits on his full auto burst. Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his defence. This results in a weapon that deals 6+1 net hit damage versus his halved armor 6, it exceeds the hardened armor and deals +11 damage more for full auto with Supermach100. He now has 17 body + 6 armor (halved from S'n'S) to resist 11+7 = 18 Stun. On average he is expected to roll 8 hits and takes 10 boxes of stun and is out cold unless he has amazing willpower, in that case you need to shoot again or just score one more hit (or he scores one less hit) on the attack. Two shots and the stun->Phys overflow makes the expensive Panther XXL that requires a special skill, is illegal, impossible to hide etc. feel quite pathetic 
6k nuyen gives you effectively F11 stunbolt but with no drain and you can have 2-3 of those drones for next to nothing.
Or, just fire a full auto burst with APDS from a regular Sam with 14+ attack pool. 17 body feels like nothing when automatic fire starts at 16-17 damage before net hits.
Good thing they removed the silly "inexcapable death autofire" from SR5. (Too bad they put it back again in the form of undodgeable grenades)
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 17 2013, 01:21 PM
Your example starts off with 'load it with stick'n'shock', which points to the flaw in the argument. It is based on an inherently broken piece of gear that should never have been written as it is. 
Posted by: Voran Sep 17 2013, 08:11 PM
Seems like hardened armor qualities/immune to normal weapons haven't changed strength since 4e, but weapons have gone up by around 3-4 Ares IV 5p -1? Ares V 8p -1.
Posted by: Sengir Sep 17 2013, 08:26 PM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Sep 16 2013, 06:44 PM) 
Our scenario begins with Opponent 2 rounding a corner to find Opponent 1 eating his Harley Scorpion (and juggernauts are, you’ll remember, both big enough and stupid enough to do this). Taking exception to this monstrosity eating his ride
...
On the other hand, Opponent 1 now notices Opponent 2, drops the motorcycle scraps
...
On the other hand, Opponent 1 now notices Opponent 2, drops the motorcycle scraps
Success after one shot!
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2013, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (Voran @ Sep 17 2013, 03:11 PM)
Seems like hardened armor qualities/immune to normal weapons haven't changed strength since 4e, but weapons have gone up by around 3-4 Ares IV 5p -1? Ares V 8p -1.
They did, actually. Hardened armor now grants half its value (after AP) as automatic successes, in addition to its full value (after AP) as dice, for 150% more awesome.
Ironically because DV values went up by what amounts to the same amount (i.e. +3 auto damage reduction vs. +3 auto damage) the system as a whole is a wash.
Which is why at my (hypothetical) table, the auto-successes from Hardened Armor are not effected by AP. So the juggernaught would be getting 6 auto-hits against the Panther cannon...and SnS.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Sep 17 2013, 09:46 PM
QUOTE (Sengir @ Sep 17 2013, 02:26 PM)
Success after one shot!
Kinda depends on how you measure success....
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 09:58 PM
"Well we got his attention. What the hell was step 2?"
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 17 2013, 10:05 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 17 2013, 02:40 PM)
They did, actually. Hardened armor now grants half its value (after AP) as automatic successes, in addition to its full value (after AP) as dice, for 150% more awesome.
Ironically because DV values went up by what amounts to the same amount (i.e. +3 auto damage reduction vs. +3 auto damage) the system as a whole is a wash.
Which is why at my (hypothetical) table, the auto-successes from Hardened Armor are not effected by AP. So the juggernaught would be getting 6 auto-hits against the Panther cannon...and SnS.
Ironically because DV values went up by what amounts to the same amount (i.e. +3 auto damage reduction vs. +3 auto damage) the system as a whole is a wash.
Which is why at my (hypothetical) table, the auto-successes from Hardened Armor are not effected by AP. So the juggernaught would be getting 6 auto-hits against the Panther cannon...and SnS.
Definitely makes your Drake a bit tougher.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2013, 10:12 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 17 2013, 05:05 PM)
Definitely makes your Drake a bit tougher.
Not really. 4 modified by AP is still "none" most of the time. Even AP-1 reduces a drake to ~2 hits (+Body), which is an increase of 1 from SR4, compared to the +2 to +3 DV all guns got (so drakes fell behind).
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 17 2013, 10:19 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 17 2013, 04:12 PM)
Not really. 4 modified by AP is still "none" most of the time. Even AP-1 reduces a drake to ~2 hits (+Body), which is an increase of 1 from SR4, compared to the +2 to +3 DV all guns got (so drakes fell behind).
The autohits are the kicker though... 3 auto hits per your comment above (vs. Standard Heavy Pistol) + Soak (3+Body) is not somehting to sneeze at.
But yes, that is true, damage went up... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2013, 11:31 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 17 2013, 05:19 PM)
The autohits are the kicker though... 3 auto hits per your comment above (vs. Standard Heavy Pistol) + Soak (3+Body) is not somehting to sneeze at.
But yes, that is true, damage went up... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
But yes, that is true, damage went up... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
4 hardened armor is TWO autohits with no AP involved. TWO.
It's still halved, I'm just not taking into account the AP before halving.
Posted by: WorkOver Sep 17 2013, 11:33 PM
QUOTE (Surukai @ Sep 17 2013, 08:13 AM)
Problem is that automatic fire and some weapon combos obliterate just about anything anyway.
I buy a stock GMC crusader small drone (Arsenal), attach a supermach 100 (Arsenal) and load it with Stick'n'Shock (Corebook). I now have a <6k nuyen drone that can laugh at Juggernaughts.
Say he rolls 3 hits on his full auto burst. Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his defence. This results in a weapon that deals 6+1 net hit damage versus his halved armor 6, it exceeds the hardened armor and deals +11 damage more for full auto with Supermach100. He now has 17 body + 6 armor (halved from S'n'S) to resist 11+7 = 18 Stun. On average he is expected to roll 8 hits and takes 10 boxes of stun and is out cold unless he has amazing willpower, in that case you need to shoot again or just score one more hit (or he scores one less hit) on the attack. Two shots and the stun->Phys overflow makes the expensive Panther XXL that requires a special skill, is illegal, impossible to hide etc. feel quite pathetic
6k nuyen gives you effectively F11 stunbolt but with no drain and you can have 2-3 of those drones for next to nothing.
Or, just fire a full auto burst with APDS from a regular Sam with 14+ attack pool. 17 body feels like nothing when automatic fire starts at 16-17 damage before net hits.
Good thing they removed the silly "inexcapable death autofire" from SR5. (Too bad they put it back again in the form of undodgeable grenades)
I buy a stock GMC crusader small drone (Arsenal), attach a supermach 100 (Arsenal) and load it with Stick'n'Shock (Corebook). I now have a <6k nuyen drone that can laugh at Juggernaughts.
Say he rolls 3 hits on his full auto burst. Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his defence. This results in a weapon that deals 6+1 net hit damage versus his halved armor 6, it exceeds the hardened armor and deals +11 damage more for full auto with Supermach100. He now has 17 body + 6 armor (halved from S'n'S) to resist 11+7 = 18 Stun. On average he is expected to roll 8 hits and takes 10 boxes of stun and is out cold unless he has amazing willpower, in that case you need to shoot again or just score one more hit (or he scores one less hit) on the attack. Two shots and the stun->Phys overflow makes the expensive Panther XXL that requires a special skill, is illegal, impossible to hide etc. feel quite pathetic
6k nuyen gives you effectively F11 stunbolt but with no drain and you can have 2-3 of those drones for next to nothing.
Or, just fire a full auto burst with APDS from a regular Sam with 14+ attack pool. 17 body feels like nothing when automatic fire starts at 16-17 damage before net hits.
Good thing they removed the silly "inexcapable death autofire" from SR5. (Too bad they put it back again in the form of undodgeable grenades)
How did your sSupermach get +11 damage for full auto? Full auto no longer adds to damage. Stick and shock ammo doesn't halve armor, it is -5 AP, flat out, replaces the AP of the ammo you are using. It is also -2 to weapon power. If you raise the damage of the IS100 to 6p, for 5th edition, then it is now a 4p-5 weapon. At +2 successes, it's now 6p-5. That Juggy has 12 points of asrmor now, gets 6 auto successes, and laughs at your weapon.
Am I missing something? I don't see anywhere in the book that burst fire now adds to damage.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 01:42 AM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 17 2013, 05:31 PM)
4 hardened armor is TWO autohits with no AP involved. TWO.
It's still halved, I'm just not taking into account the AP before halving.
It's still halved, I'm just not taking into account the AP before halving.
Ahhh... I misunderstood your position. Still, TWO Autosoak + Soak Roll is still pretty good. Better than it was in SR4A.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 18 2013, 02:06 AM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 17 2013, 08:42 PM)
Ahhh... I misunderstood your position. Still, TWO Autosoak + Soak Roll is still pretty good. Better than it was in SR4A.
Against guns that got +3DV? Not really.
Posted by: Jaid Sep 18 2013, 04:58 AM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 17 2013, 09:06 PM)
Against guns that got +3DV? Not really.
those guns deal +3 DV to everyone, not just drakes.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 18 2013, 12:58 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 17 2013, 11:58 PM)
those guns deal +3 DV to everyone, not just drakes.
And how about regular folks, did their armor values go up any?
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 01:09 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 17 2013, 04:58 PM)
"Well we got his attention. What the hell was step 2?"
Remember, you don't have to outrun the juggernaut.
You just have to outrun your buddy.
Leading it through a Humanis hangout also qualifies....
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 01:27 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 18 2013, 05:58 AM)
And how about regular folks, did their armor values go up any?
Yes... Their armor values went up. Armor values increased across the board. Except maybe for Drakes (who may or may not be Special Snowflakes in SR5 - But probably not, sicne they are likely not Deckers), but they get autohits now due to Hardened Armor, so... *shrug*
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 18 2013, 02:15 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 18 2013, 08:27 AM)
Yes... Their armor values went up. Armor values increased across the board. Except maybe for Drakes (who may or may not be Special Snowflakes in SR5 - But probably not, sicne they are likely not Deckers), but they get autohits now due to Hardened Armor, so... *shrug*
So in other words:
Everyone got better, but drakes got better the least.
(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 02:42 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 18 2013, 07:15 AM)
So in other words:
Everyone got better, but drakes got better the least.
(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).
Everyone got better, but drakes got better the least.
(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).
Heh... You sound Bitter... A Drake is better off than a Human not in Armor... Humans did not get better at all, nor did the other Metatypes.
And it is an Astounding 2 AUTOHITS + their Soak Roll (4 + Body) against non AP weapons, which ain't nothing. Assuming that Drake Armor does not get better in SR5, which it may well have.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 02:59 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 18 2013, 10:15 AM)
(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).
He does have a point, I think the kids on my block using their slingshots even have a -1AP or better on them.
But we do live in a rougher neighbourhood.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 03:02 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 18 2013, 07:59 AM)
He does have a point, I think the kids on my block using their slingshots even have a -1AP or better on them.
But we do live in a rougher neighbourhood.
But we do live in a rougher neighbourhood.
But you live in a tough block... not all of us do.
EDIT: Looks like you were Ninja Editing (you have apparently found a new Master) and we had the same Idea.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 18 2013, 03:58 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 18 2013, 09:42 AM)
Heh... You sound Bitter... A Drake is better off than a Human not in Armor... Humans did not get better at all, nor did the other Metatypes.
And it is an Astounding 2 AUTOHITS + their Soak Roll (4 + Body) against non AP weapons, which ain't nothing. Assuming that Drake Armor does not get better in SR5, which it may well have.
And it is an Astounding 2 AUTOHITS + their Soak Roll (4 + Body) against non AP weapons, which ain't nothing. Assuming that Drake Armor does not get better in SR5, which it may well have.
2 autohits that are modified by AP
Followed by a low-par roll (4 armor is nothing, was nothing, will always be nothing)
(Though this brings up an interesting question: Flechettes. Does the +5 AP get added to the 4 armor, for 9, halved: 4 autohits? This seems a little silly)
Posted by: Fiddler Sep 18 2013, 04:40 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 17 2013, 03:58 PM)
"Well we got his attention. What the hell was step 2?"
Let's see...
Step one-get attention
Step two-
Step three-profit
Posted by: Sengir Sep 18 2013, 05:54 PM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Sep 17 2013, 09:46 PM)
Kinda depends on how you measure success....
Mr. Sam did not like the juggernaut munching on his bike, it stopped doing that. Anything beyond that wasn't part of the deal
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 18 2013, 06:27 PM
Too bad vehicles don't have hardened armor as vehicles have a lot less vulnerable points than a critter. You can shoot my car to hell and it will keep on driving like nothing happened if you didn't hit the engine block, gas tank or tires, undercarriage. Over 50% of its mass is just casing which can be riddled to virtually no ill effect to the vehicle performance.(yeah the stereo may get destroyed or the aerodynamics may get worse etc, but it will still drive fine.) The same can't be said for a critter even if you are shot in the foot it causes problems. While hardened armor may have been a problem in 4e in how it worked, vehicle armor was much worse and virtually nothing was done for it.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 18 2013, 06:27 PM
double post of like hearing your own voice goodness.
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 18 2013, 06:46 PM
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Sep 18 2013, 01:27 PM)
Too bad vehicles don't have hardened armor as vehicles have a lot less vulnerable points than a critter. You can shoot my car to hell and it will keep on driving like nothing happened if you didn't hit the engine block, gas tank or tires, undercarriage. Over 50% of its mass is just casing which can be riddled to virtually no ill effect to the vehicle performance.(yeah the stereo may get destroyed or the aerodynamics may get worse etc, but it will still drive fine.) The same can't be said for a critter even if you are shot in the foot it causes problems. While hardened armor may have been a problem in 4e in how it worked, vehicle armor was much worse and virtually nothing was done for it.
Vehicles are still immune to stun and get LOTS of armor. So with the exception of anti-vehicular weapons they should only be taking (and then ignoring) stun from shots.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 07:35 PM
On a side note, the Juggie is listed as detecting electrical fields under it's motion detection, so one does wonder how it reacts to some devices with a stronger Signal strength.
Would it haze it's senses or be a big neon sign saying X marks the spot!
Would a TM 'smell' like a truffle to it?
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 09:45 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 19 2013, 03:35 AM)
Would a TM 'smell' like a truffle to it?
Great, yet another reason not to play a technomancer.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 09:48 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 02:45 PM)
Great, yet another reason not to play a technomancer.
Not like you run into Juggernauts inside a megaplex. What sane TM leaves the Megaplex?
Posted by: Draco18s Sep 18 2013, 09:55 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 18 2013, 04:48 PM)
What sane TM leaves the Megaplex?
TMs are sane?
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 10:01 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 19 2013, 05:48 AM)
Not like you run into Juggernauts inside a megaplex. What sane TM leaves the Megaplex?
Why not? that's where all the food is.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 10:09 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 06:01 PM)
Why not? that's where all the food is.
Well it's not like a Juggie can sneak into town, so local forces would be meeting it even before it gets close to the borders and they will bring out the big guns with decent AP, like anti tank weaponry.
Though I suppose there could be some parts of the Barrens it might pass unnoticed for a bit and the OP did mention it being just around a corner somewhere.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 10:15 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 19 2013, 06:09 AM)
Well it's not like a Juggie can sneak into town, so local forces would be meeting it even before it gets close to the borders and they will bring out the big guns with decent AP, like anti tank weaponry.
Though I suppose there could be some parts of the Barrens it might pass unnoticed for a bit and the OP did mention it being just around a corner somewhere.
Though I suppose there could be some parts of the Barrens it might pass unnoticed for a bit and the OP did mention it being just around a corner somewhere.
THAT would make your players think twice about that street lifestyle!
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 18 2013, 10:26 PM
Juggernaut rummaging around Redmond Barrens, going unnoticed until some pissed-off trog heavy shoots it with a Panther XXL to make it stop eating his bike, then takes off like a jackrabbit, kiting the thing into tourist town and straight through a Humanis chapterhouse, letting it go to town before Knight Errant can actually break out the heavy attack choppers to put it down for good?
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 10:28 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 18 2013, 06:26 PM)
Juggernaut rummaging around Redmond Barrens, going unnoticed until some pissed-off trog heavy shoots it with a Panther XXL to make it stop eating his bike, then takes off like a jackrabbit, kiting the thing into tourist town and straight through a Humanis chapterhouse, letting it go to town before Knight Errant can actually break out the heavy attack choppers to put it down for good?
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
I would watch that on pay per view
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 10:32 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 19 2013, 06:28 AM)
I would watch that on pay per view
50 nuyen says someone baited the thing there and set up camera drones specifically to capture the footage and sell it on PPV.
It reminds me of that traveler game where I loaned those PGMPs to the warring TL1 tribes...
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 18 2013, 10:36 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 06:32 PM)
It reminds me of that traveler game where I loaned those PGMPs to the warring TL1 tribes...
I hope you were recording those exchanges from orbit! Bwhahahahaaaah!
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 10:37 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 06:36 AM)
I hope you were recording those exchanges from orbit! Bwhahahahaaaah!
Of course. I made a TON on PPV and am now wanted in about 5 systems
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 10:50 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 18 2013, 03:55 PM)
TMs are sane?
Well..... yeah, probably not...
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 18 2013, 10:53 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 06:37 PM)
Of course. I made a TON on PPV and am now wanted in about 5 systems
Only wanted, and only in about five?
You haven't hit the big time until you've been tried and found guilty in absentia and sentenced to death in at least a dozen.
Still, it's a worthy start! Keep at it.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 10:55 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 18 2013, 04:53 PM)
Only wanted, and only in about five?
You haven't hit the big time until you've been tried and found guilty in absentia and sentenced to death in at least a dozen.
Still, it's a worthy start! Keep at it.
You haven't hit the big time until you've been tried and found guilty in absentia and sentenced to death in at least a dozen.
Still, it's a worthy start! Keep at it.
Yeah... But can you actually name the guy with the Death Sentence in 12 Systems? And really, in the end, he was just an Architect slumming in the bars of Mos Eisley with his friend.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 10:59 PM
Well there was the time we stole nukes from a red zone interdiction planet...
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 11:00 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 18 2013, 05:26 PM)
Juggernaut rummaging around Redmond Barrens, going unnoticed until some pissed-off trog heavy shoots it with a Panther XXL to make it stop eating his bike, then takes off like a jackrabbit, kiting the thing into tourist town and straight through a Humanis chapterhouse, letting it go to town before Knight Errant can actually break out the heavy attack choppers to put it down for good?
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
They also need this as a scenario in Shadowrun Returns as it's own special mission, maybe even let you hotwire a tank at the end to take it on.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 18 2013, 11:01 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 18 2013, 06:55 PM)
Yeah... But can you actually name the guy with the Death Sentence in 12 Systems? And really, in the end, he was just an Architect slumming in the bars of Mos Eisley with his friend.
Panda Baba.
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 06:59 PM)
Well there was the time we stole nukes from a red zone interdiction planet...
That sounds like a good story, too.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 11:03 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 07:01 AM)
That sounds like a good story, too.
We ran into Daleks. Yes, that really happened. And it was awesome.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 18 2013, 11:13 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 18 2013, 05:01 PM)
Panda Baba.
Dr. Evazan was the one who actually said the quote... Pando Baba just grunted and howled.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 18 2013, 11:17 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 07:03 PM)
We ran into Daleks. Yes, that really happened. And it was awesome.
Nukes will not help you. If you run into Daleks, you burn sky and pray to whatever you hold dear you find a madman with a blue box before they catch up.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 18 2013, 07:13 PM)
Dr. Evazan was the one who actually said the quote... Pando Baba just grunted and howled.
I thought they both had the same sentences? Ah well.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 11:21 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 07:17 AM)
Nukes will not help you. If you run into Daleks, you burn sky and pray to whatever you hold dear you find a madman with a blue box before they catch up.
Yeah, we pretty much defaulted to plan B: RUN LIKE CHILDREN!
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 18 2013, 11:24 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 06:21 PM)
Yeah, we pretty much defaulted to plan B: RUN LIKE CHILDREN!
Were you able to successfully locate the Doctor and get him to solve the problem?
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 18 2013, 11:25 PM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 07:24 AM)
Were you able to successfully locate the Doctor and get him to solve the problem?
He was a no-show. Fortunately, we got to jump distance without being followed.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Sep 19 2013, 12:16 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 18 2013, 04:26 PM)
Juggernaut rummaging around Redmond Barrens, going unnoticed until some pissed-off trog heavy shoots it with a Panther XXL to make it stop eating his bike, then takes off like a jackrabbit, kiting the thing into tourist town and straight through a Humanis chapterhouse, letting it go to town before Knight Errant can actually break out the heavy attack choppers to put it down for good?
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.
Oh, that's brilliant. I think I love you.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 12:44 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 07:25 PM)
He was a no-show. Fortunately, we got to jump distance without being followed.
Daleks and no Doctor?
I think this is your GM's way of saying "I no longer wish to run this campaign. Daleks arrive; everything is atomized."
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Sep 18 2013, 08:16 PM)
Oh, that's brilliant. I think I love you.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 12:49 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 08:44 AM)
Daleks and no Doctor?
I think this is your GM's way of saying "I no longer wish to run this campaign. Daleks arrive; everything is atomized."
I think this is your GM's way of saying "I no longer wish to run this campaign. Daleks arrive; everything is atomized."
Well to be fair we were stealing nukes FROM the daleks, so we couldn't really complain that the doctor didn't rock up. Fortunately, I had made a lot of special modifications to our ship. She didn't look like much but she had it where it counts.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 12:49 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 08:44 AM)
Daleks and no Doctor?
I think this is your GM's way of saying "I no longer wish to run this campaign. Daleks arrive; everything is atomized."
I think this is your GM's way of saying "I no longer wish to run this campaign. Daleks arrive; everything is atomized."
Well to be fair we were stealing nukes FROM the daleks, so we couldn't really complain that the doctor didn't rock up. Fortunately, I had made a lot of special modifications to our ship. She didn't look like much but she had it where it counts.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 12:55 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 07:49 PM)
Well to be fair we were stealing nukes FROM the daleks, so we couldn't really complain that the doctor didn't rock up. Fortunately, I had made a lot of special modifications to our ship. She didn't look like much but she had it where it counts.
Why in the world would Daleks need nukes?
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 01:16 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 08:55 AM)
Why in the world would Daleks need nukes?
I believe that these were proto-daleks. If you remember your season 1 doctor who the daleks had retreated into their armoured shells to protect themselves from the radiation from a massive nuclear war. We came in at about that point.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 19 2013, 02:13 AM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 18 2013, 01:46 PM)
Vehicles are still immune to stun and get LOTS of armor. So with the exception of anti-vehicular weapons they should only be taking (and then ignoring) stun from shots.
Some vehicles do, some vehicles don't kind of like critters. A heavy pistol with a net hit or 2 will punch into and do decent damage against most cars. You get into the assault rifle area and you start wrecking a lot of cars quick no matter where you hit them, Panther assault cannon will destroy most cars in a single shot even if it just shot through the windshield. Cars needed something like hardened armor so they could soak damage better a hell of a lot more than critters did.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 05:38 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 18 2013, 08:16 PM)
I believe that these were proto-daleks. If you remember your season 1 doctor who the daleks had retreated into their armoured shells to protect themselves from the radiation from a massive nuclear war. We came in at about that point.
Ah. Sorry. My Doctor Who expertise extends back only as far as Billie Piper meeting Christopher Eccelston.
So, these were the lame-ass wimpy Daleks vulnerable to a proper thrashing with a baseball bat, then, not the terrifying monsters of the new series? You should've nuked them again, just to be sure.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 05:41 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 01:38 PM)
Ah. Sorry. My Doctor Who expertise extends back only as far as Billie Piper meeting Christopher Eccelston.
So, these were the lame-ass wimpy Daleks vulnerable to a proper thrashing with a baseball bat, then, not the terrifying monsters of the new series? You should've nuked them again, just to be sure.
So, these were the lame-ass wimpy Daleks vulnerable to a proper thrashing with a baseball bat, then, not the terrifying monsters of the new series? You should've nuked them again, just to be sure.
Well the PGMP proved... kinda effective. Does 2 hits to take one down count as effective against daleks?
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 05:46 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 19 2013, 01:41 AM)
Well the PGMP proved... kinda effective. Does 2 hits to take one down count as effective against daleks?
Considering the amount of firepower Captain Jack Harkness and his little band in those makeshift fortifications had to pour into one just to blind it? Yes, two shots to down a Dalek is effective.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 06:04 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 01:46 PM)
Considering the amount of firepower Captain Jack Harkness and his little band in those makeshift fortifications had to pour into one just to blind it? Yes, two shots to down a Dalek is effective.
Awesome! Man portable artillery for everyone!
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 06:35 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 19 2013, 01:04 AM)
Awesome! Man portable artillery for everyone!
http://schlockmercenary.wikia.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries, FD. Maxim 37.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 07:00 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 02:35 PM)
http://schlockmercenary.wikia.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries, FD. Maxim 37.
Wrong. The PGMP doesn't need to reload.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 07:54 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 19 2013, 03:00 AM)
Wrong. The PGMP doesn't need to reload.
Surely it's got to cool down or refuel or something. It's been awhile since I read MongTrav.
Posted by: Surukai Sep 19 2013, 10:42 AM
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Sep 18 2013, 01:33 AM)
How did your sSupermach get +11 damage for full auto? Full auto no longer adds to damage. Stick and shock ammo doesn't halve armor, it is -5 AP, flat out, replaces the AP of the ammo you are using. It is also -2 to weapon power. If you raise the damage of the IS100 to 6p, for 5th edition, then it is now a 4p-5 weapon. At +2 successes, it's now 6p-5. That Juggy has 12 points of asrmor now, gets 6 auto successes, and laughs at your weapon.
Am I missing something? I don't see anywhere in the book that burst fire now adds to damage.
Am I missing something? I don't see anywhere in the book that burst fire now adds to damage.
It was in SR4 example, I even ended my post with "Good thing they removed this" last.
The SnS are now less silly (they also have a relative damage value, not absolute) SR4 , Supermach100 deals just 4P base, but SnS overwrote that to 6S, full auto with "High velocity" adds +11 DV instead of regular +9. But, I wouldn't need to go full cheese. Any full auto gun in SR4 overrun most armor and ignores high body by simply doing such insane amounts of damage that you couldn't defend against it.
A regular AK97 with flechettes did the jog good enough. Flechettes deal +2 DV but has +5AP, (But since Form fit armor doesn't give meaningful impact armor, the net effect is +2DV but just a mere +1 AP, add to that that most base armours have 2 less impact you end up, in practice, with +2DV AND -1 AP vs a target with meaningful armor (Best basic armor + Full form fit).
6 DV (Base) +2 (flechettes) + 9 (Full auto) + ~2-6 net hits depending on how one-trick-pony you are means you get to eat 19-23 damage. Even your 20 armor and 8 body will only soak half that and you end up on oveflow in one single IP.
That is mostly gone now. Thanks to auto fire not adding insane damage any more.
It is replaced by grenades (SR5).
Without formfit (Not available in SR5 yet) you are looking at 12-14 armor + same 8 body, maybe some more from cyber for a good target. vs 18 damage from grenade. (or 16 from explosive right?). You are likely to go down from a single grenade, taking 11+ boxes of damage in one single blast despite having good armor and body. That is why Grenades replace "Full auto" in SR5 as the near flawless oneshot trick. That you can't even roll a defence versus grenades in SR5 means it might even be worse now :/
Hardened armor SR5 style makes a difference though. The juggernaught get 5 automatic hits + rolls 25-30 dice damage resist. He can take a few grenades (But anyone else is helpless). So, the change of Hardened armor to grant automatic hits makes the juggernaught even with mere 12 hardened armor a good dangerous.
In all, foe with 17 body and 12 hardened armor is a much more respectable foe in SR5, thanks to automatic hits on Hardened Armor and a slightly lesser availability for dependable 20+ damage attacks.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 11:00 AM
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 19 2013, 03:54 PM)
Surely it's got to cool down or refuel or something. It's been awhile since I read MongTrav.
Negative. Powered by an integrated fusion reactor, presumably cooled using science fiction technology, this bad-boy can lay down full auto anti-tank fire for hours on end... provided you have the augmentations and power armour necessary to lift the damn thing and cope with its staggering recoil. Seriously, if you don't have either battledress or artillery battledress then you are not going to be using this thing.
Ditto on its big cousin, the FGMP, though for different reasons. See, with the FGMP the designers added a grav-plate to reduce the weight down to something an extremely strong human can use... but every time it fires it emits a lethal dose of radiation, so you need the power armour to provide shielding from that. It does make hand-to-hand fighting a lot easier when your weapon kills everything nearby on the pull of a trigger, though...
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 19 2013, 11:10 AM
Well, sounds like you've got the THOOOOOOM worked out, but the delivery system could definitely use some ergonomic upgrades. Still, it beats the living shit out of slugthrowers when you're going claw-to-claw with Daleks.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 11:40 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 19 2013, 06:00 AM)
Negative. Powered by an integrated fusion reactor, presumably cooled using science fiction technology, this bad-boy can lay down full auto anti-tank fire for hours on end... provided you have the augmentations and power armour necessary to lift the damn thing and cope with its staggering recoil. Seriously, if you don't have either battledress or artillery battledress then you are not going to be using this thing.
Ditto on its big cousin, the FGMP, though for different reasons. See, with the FGMP the designers added a grav-plate to reduce the weight down to something an extremely strong human can use... but every time it fires it emits a lethal dose of radiation, so you need the power armour to provide shielding from that. It does make hand-to-hand fighting a lot easier when your weapon kills everything nearby on the pull of a trigger, though...
Ditto on its big cousin, the FGMP, though for different reasons. See, with the FGMP the designers added a grav-plate to reduce the weight down to something an extremely strong human can use... but every time it fires it emits a lethal dose of radiation, so you need the power armour to provide shielding from that. It does make hand-to-hand fighting a lot easier when your weapon kills everything nearby on the pull of a trigger, though...
Well 2436 hours or so, depending on how much your using it, then it does need a refuelling and some light maintenance.
And don't forget the PGMP-14 (light plasma model) incorporates a gravity field generator which enables personnel not in powered armor to both carry the weapon and to fire it. The weapon’s computer system automatically biases the field to provide near total recoil compensation. It is otherwise similar to the PGMP-13 in performance.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 11:46 AM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 19 2013, 07:40 PM)
Well 2436 hours or so, depending on how much your using it, then it does need a refuelling and some light maintenance.
And don't forget the PGMP-14 (light plasma model) incorporates a gravity field generator which enables personnel not in powered armor to both carry the weapon and to fire it. The weapon’s computer system automatically biases the field to provide near total recoil compensation. It is otherwise similar to the PGMP-13 in performance.
And don't forget the PGMP-14 (light plasma model) incorporates a gravity field generator which enables personnel not in powered armor to both carry the weapon and to fire it. The weapon’s computer system automatically biases the field to provide near total recoil compensation. It is otherwise similar to the PGMP-13 in performance.
And people think that magic is powerful. Where do they get these delusions?
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 11:55 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 19 2013, 07:46 AM)
And people think that magic is powerful. Where do they get these delusions?
Because I can still Mind Control you via binoculars to use that Plasma device to toast your buddies and then eat the barrel yourself and you would never have even seen me.
Also remember Scotty's Maxim: The fancier the plumbing, the easier is it to stop it up. Just a small breach can lead to catastrophic failure and other nastiness.
Combination of Cold and Electrical elemental attacks tend to have bad effects on devices in general.
Don't get me wrong, Tech is awesome and is very powerful and flexible. Plus plasma weapons don't degrade just because your walking over a mass grave (background count) which is always a plus.
Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 12:26 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 19 2013, 07:55 PM)
Because I can still Mind Control you via binoculars to use that Plasma device to toast your buddies and then eat the barrel yourself and you would never have even seen me.
We need to put Magneto's anti-telepathy helmet into mass production.
Posted by: WorkOver Sep 20 2013, 01:42 AM
QUOTE (Surukai @ Sep 19 2013, 05:42 AM)
It was in SR4 example, I even ended my post with "Good thing they removed this" last.
The SnS are now less silly (they also have a relative damage value, not absolute) SR4 , Supermach100 deals just 4P base, but SnS overwrote that to 6S, full auto with "High velocity" adds +11 DV instead of regular +9. But, I wouldn't need to go full cheese. Any full auto gun in SR4 overrun most armor and ignores high body by simply doing such insane amounts of damage that you couldn't defend against it.
A regular AK97 with flechettes did the jog good enough. Flechettes deal +2 DV but has +5AP, (But since Form fit armor doesn't give meaningful impact armor, the net effect is +2DV but just a mere +1 AP, add to that that most base armours have 2 less impact you end up, in practice, with +2DV AND -1 AP vs a target with meaningful armor (Best basic armor + Full form fit).
6 DV (Base) +2 (flechettes) + 9 (Full auto) + ~2-6 net hits depending on how one-trick-pony you are means you get to eat 19-23 damage. Even your 20 armor and 8 body will only soak half that and you end up on oveflow in one single IP.
That is mostly gone now. Thanks to auto fire not adding insane damage any more.
It is replaced by grenades (SR5).
Without formfit (Not available in SR5 yet) you are looking at 12-14 armor + same 8 body, maybe some more from cyber for a good target. vs 18 damage from grenade. (or 16 from explosive right?). You are likely to go down from a single grenade, taking 11+ boxes of damage in one single blast despite having good armor and body. That is why Grenades replace "Full auto" in SR5 as the near flawless oneshot trick. That you can't even roll a defence versus grenades in SR5 means it might even be worse now :/
Hardened armor SR5 style makes a difference though. The juggernaught get 5 automatic hits + rolls 25-30 dice damage resist. He can take a few grenades (But anyone else is helpless). So, the change of Hardened armor to grant automatic hits makes the juggernaught even with mere 12 hardened armor a good dangerous.
In all, foe with 17 body and 12 hardened armor is a much more respectable foe in SR5, thanks to automatic hits on Hardened Armor and a slightly lesser availability for dependable 20+ damage attacks.
The SnS are now less silly (they also have a relative damage value, not absolute) SR4 , Supermach100 deals just 4P base, but SnS overwrote that to 6S, full auto with "High velocity" adds +11 DV instead of regular +9. But, I wouldn't need to go full cheese. Any full auto gun in SR4 overrun most armor and ignores high body by simply doing such insane amounts of damage that you couldn't defend against it.
A regular AK97 with flechettes did the jog good enough. Flechettes deal +2 DV but has +5AP, (But since Form fit armor doesn't give meaningful impact armor, the net effect is +2DV but just a mere +1 AP, add to that that most base armours have 2 less impact you end up, in practice, with +2DV AND -1 AP vs a target with meaningful armor (Best basic armor + Full form fit).
6 DV (Base) +2 (flechettes) + 9 (Full auto) + ~2-6 net hits depending on how one-trick-pony you are means you get to eat 19-23 damage. Even your 20 armor and 8 body will only soak half that and you end up on oveflow in one single IP.
That is mostly gone now. Thanks to auto fire not adding insane damage any more.
It is replaced by grenades (SR5).
Without formfit (Not available in SR5 yet) you are looking at 12-14 armor + same 8 body, maybe some more from cyber for a good target. vs 18 damage from grenade. (or 16 from explosive right?). You are likely to go down from a single grenade, taking 11+ boxes of damage in one single blast despite having good armor and body. That is why Grenades replace "Full auto" in SR5 as the near flawless oneshot trick. That you can't even roll a defence versus grenades in SR5 means it might even be worse now :/
Hardened armor SR5 style makes a difference though. The juggernaught get 5 automatic hits + rolls 25-30 dice damage resist. He can take a few grenades (But anyone else is helpless). So, the change of Hardened armor to grant automatic hits makes the juggernaught even with mere 12 hardened armor a good dangerous.
In all, foe with 17 body and 12 hardened armor is a much more respectable foe in SR5, thanks to automatic hits on Hardened Armor and a slightly lesser availability for dependable 20+ damage attacks.
Why did you bring up a 4th edition argument then? Everyone knew vehicle armour was not good in 4th, and SnS was stupid.
Posted by: Surukai Sep 20 2013, 08:31 AM
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Sep 20 2013, 03:42 AM)
Why did you bring up a 4th edition argument then? Everyone knew vehicle armour was not good in 4th, and SnS was stupid.
Because the OP was a SR4 example...
And, as I said you don't need to go SnS to do inescapable damage with SR4, the +9 DV from full auto can't be negated with any wearable armour in a feasible way. (AK-97 with flechette rounds do 17P + net hits). No need to go high velocity or SnS.
I much prefer the new hardened armour rules.
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 20 2013, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 19 2013, 06:26 AM)
We need to put Magneto's anti-telepathy helmet into mass production.
Honestly, I don't know why we don't see these things in SR yet, but then again I put pretty stiff restrictions on mind control in my games to prevent abuse.
Otherwise, the thing that logically follows is a full-on mass purge of all magically active people by the pitchforks and torches crowd.
The developers have never really bothered to extrapolate the societal effects of those spells.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 01:35 PM
Well tech has it's limits still when going head to head with magic. Physical effects are one thing, but the mind and auras are still a grey area for them, just like most TM abilities. They can not even really detect mind control, let alone protect against it at the current stage of manatech without using magic themselves.
As for society: They would argue that since there is such few mages that most people don't or won't have contact with one generally speaking outside of a trid or second hand story it's not a heavy issue for society as a whole.
Sure when one crazy fries a few minds, it's horrible and raises a stink but things settle out eventually once he is caught and punished, even if they don't actually catch the real villain you can bet they will get a scapegoat out just to keep the public appeased.
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 20 2013, 01:43 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 20 2013, 07:35 AM)
Well tech has it's limits still when going head to head with magic. Physical effects are one thing, but the mind and auras are still a grey area for them, just like most TM abilities. They can not even really detect mind control, let alone protect against it at the current stage of manatech without using magic themselves.
As for society: They would argue that since there is such few mages that most people don't or won't have contact with one generally speaking outside of a trid or second hand story it's not a heavy issue for society as a whole.
Sure when one crazy fries a few minds, it's horrible and raises a stink but things settle out eventually once he is caught and punished, even if they don't actually catch the real villain you can bet they will get a scapegoat out just to keep the public appeased.
As for society: They would argue that since there is such few mages that most people don't or won't have contact with one generally speaking outside of a trid or second hand story it's not a heavy issue for society as a whole.
Sure when one crazy fries a few minds, it's horrible and raises a stink but things settle out eventually once he is caught and punished, even if they don't actually catch the real villain you can bet they will get a scapegoat out just to keep the public appeased.
Yeah, but consider that not all mages are crazies, or easily caught. One working blood mage, or god forbid, a dragon...
Let's just say that if ol' Dunkie wanted to control the Presidency, running for it was the least efficient option available.
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