Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 09:17 AM

The Morpher is a loop of metal with several clip-on plates that rest against the bearer's knuckles when grasped. Each of these plates is an alchemical preparation for a different spell (commonly Increase Agility, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Increase reflexes and Armour), all prepared to go off when the same activation phrase is uttered (The inventor favored the phrase "It's morphing time!" for unknown reasons). This naturally allows the alchemist to go from average guy to street-sam level killing machine in mere moments.

Thoughts?

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 17 2013, 09:46 AM

No more Saturday morning cartoons for you.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 09:53 AM

Ironically, I have never watched an episode of power rangers in my life.
I have, however, watched Linkara's History of the power rangers. It's where most of my knowledge comes from.

I got the idea when I decided to try and make a kick-ass aspected alchemist. A couple of Morpher-style devices for fights, a few wands of powerbolt for bringing down foes too tough for his normal weapons, some healing patches for when he gets wounded, that sort of thing. Yes a mystic adept can do it better, but a dedicated alchemist just feels so cool! I'm like Batman: I can beat anything if given time to prepare.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 17 2013, 10:34 AM

I would do this for the whole freaking team.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 10:40 AM

Each of them would need a different colour ranger power...

Posted by: xsansara Sep 17 2013, 11:20 AM

And in the morning you spend an hour preparing the stuff and then a couple of hours to sleep off the drain. Very heroic...

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 11:23 AM

I'm a professional criminal. Very heroic...

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 17 2013, 11:26 AM

Could have an alchemy sweatshop churning them out, the kids make them in the morning and sleep it off while you are out being all heroic.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 11:33 AM

Main problem with that is that most of the spells I suggested are health spells, which are command trigger only.

Make a modified version with combat sense, armour, and other spells along those lines on the other hand...

Posted by: Chinane Sep 17 2013, 12:05 PM

The preparation casts with Force+Potency. I suppose all the powerful alchemists should be blood mages .

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 17 2013, 12:54 PM

Powebolt is wimpy. But I think alchemy gives you a a way to make indirect spells quite powerful. The Force of the preparation doubles as the Magic in the test, and net successes double as Spellcasting. The Force remains the Force. Thus, Force is Force AND adds to the number of dice.

With rating 6 Magic, rating 6 Alchemy, Fire Bringer mentor spirit, maybe a specialization, maybe a focus, maybe Aid Alchemy spirit service, maybe Edge you will be able to get enough dice to get 6 hits often. If you pay an extra 1000 nuyen a month, you can have an alchemist's workshop in your home which raises the relevant limit by 2! So you can create the preparation at Force 12, spend 4 drams of reagents to keep your limit at 4, which raises to 6 in your workshop, keeping your drain stun. Take the drain of the spell +2 and resist it with a monstrous drain pool, and sleep it off with monstrous body. What you will have is a preparation with a dice pool of 12 + potency and a Force of 12. Is there a way to make this work with Magic 7 and Force 14, or is the drain just too much? Maybe with Centering and a Centering focus?

Edit: The problem is that the 12 dice to resist your test will often leave you with only 2 potency, and sometime it will fizzle, leaving with massive drain and either nothing to show for it or no time to sleep it off.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 17 2013, 01:13 PM

Now your goal is to create six rings that summon a free nature spirit.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 17 2013, 02:04 PM

For something like a force 12 fireball with command or time trigger you'd be looking at 13 drain. I.e. it would pretty much be a one shot attempt.
That means you'd really wish to use an enchanting focus to raise your success chance from 40% (12 vs. 12) to 66% (18 vs. 12) with a force 6 enchanting focus in order to get any potency at all.

Limit 6 Force 12 automatically means about 17% chance of failure, independent of magic, skill or focus. Which brings us back to the attraction of blood magic .

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 17 2013, 05:20 PM

I was thinking something with friendlier drain.

Those odds ARE lousy. How does it work out with Limit 7 (and Magic rating 7), Force 14 and restricting it to the Punch spell, which was the only indirect combat spell I could find with F - 6 drain? That would be 10 drain.

Edit: Oh oh! Have the lynchpin on a glove so when you make the contact for the Punch spell, the spell goes off. Then the drain becomes 9!

Posted by: Chinane Sep 17 2013, 07:13 PM

14 vs 14 is pretty similar to 12 vs 12.

I cooked up a simple https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmMarApKEKLbdDhPTERMVkhzbHJ2MjJLZ1lUbWNGeGc#gid=0, where you can check out various opposed test combinations yourself for a number of limits.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 17 2013, 10:32 PM

The odds make it a huge gamble. At Magic rating 8, however, if you can somehow manage to get 8 hits, preparations in the 12 to 16 Force range have only a small chance of failure, and decent odds of getting respectable potency. Drain is an absolute monster though.

The reason for all this is to get a Force 16 Punch alchemical preparation. The dice pool is 16 + potency (minus modifiers, of course), DV is 16 + net hits S, AP -16. What makes it good is that you won't need to eat drain when you use it. Arguably, the dice pool of a spellcaster with 8 Magic, 6 spellcasting, a focus, specialization, mentor spirit, Aid Sorcery and Edge would have a similar or even larger dice pool.

Is any of the above wrong?

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 17 2013, 10:36 PM

Only that the spellcasting skill isn't involved in alchemy at all. However, call it the alchemy skill and you're fairly good.
Can a spirit aid alchemy?

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 17 2013, 11:04 PM

I find a shot of whisky right before I start prepping the potions tends to help, does that count?

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 17 2013, 11:05 PM

Yes, they can aid sorcery, alchemy or study.

What I meant by my spellcasting remark was that I was going for an alchemical way around the very lousy damage of combat spells while using spellcasting. My way was to use an indirect combat spell. Since spellcasting indirect combat spells is Spellcasting + Magic with damage based on Force + net hits and AP based on Force, and alchemy is based on Potency + Force with damage based on Force + net hits and AP based on Force, I was looking for a way to get both a large dice pool and large damage and a high armor penetration all by maximizing Force.

My reference to the size of the spellcasting pool was that a highly specialized spellcaster (as opposed to a highly specialized alchemist) could also have a large dice pool to go with a very high Force spell. So why bother? My answer is that the drain is so bad, that by going the alchemy route you can rest before showtime and not have to deal with knocking yourself out while under time pressure.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 18 2013, 09:09 AM

Let's crunch the numbers: The goal is to find a preperation that does more damage than that of an equally equipped spellcaster, under the constraint that Drain has to be kept non-lethal and Stun in both cases. So let us assume 11S as the highest exceptable drain for alchemy.

As you pointed out the indirect spell which allows the highest Force under the Drain constraint is Punch at a F-6, so you can cast it at Force 16 with a Touch Trigger. I don't see how Force is related to Magic for Alchemy, please point me towards the page number, if you do. You roll your dice for Potency, but cut off at your Magic rating (hoping your GM allows that). I think you can get a DP, where you reach, say 6 hits consistently, but frankly, it does not matter much. If you have a uncooperative GM, having less DP is actually safer, to avoid physical drain. But too little is bad as well, because it hurts the decay rate. With F16 + Potency ~5, you will have 21 DP or about 7 hits.

A Spellcaster pulling the same trick would need Magic 8, eat physical Drain, but would probably have a comparable DP (Magic 8 + Spellcasting (Combat) 8 + Spellcasting Focus 5, for example). I was going to argue that the spellcaster can repeat his trick, but actually, considering the Drain, he probably can't.

Fazit: Hobby alchemist is the way to go. Make a PhysAd, spend your PP on some physical action (Unarmed Combat, Reflexes), but learn a little alchemy (maybe 3 points) for extra heavy Punches. If you have time to prepare, it is better on almost all spells than taking drain in the field. I think the only downside is that you will have a timing problem with the decay and resting up and so on, and spellcasters will be more flexible in general.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 18 2013, 09:30 AM

You don't cut off at magic, you use drams (+workshop bonus) to tailor your potency limit, as it REPLACES the limit by force.
(That one is a bit unintuitive, initially i thought drams would ADD to the limit. Shem's post above cleared that up (or rather my looking up the rules in an attempt to contradict it ).)




Why? Would you consider two attempts for something with drain 10 instead of 13?

Since you're going to have a headache either way and plan to sleep it off, might just go for the real deal.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 18 2013, 09:34 AM

Yeah this still confuses me as the concept about Reagents in general goes, why would it replace instead of add to the limit?

I mean it works either way, it just doesn't seem right though....

Kind of wish there was a way to talk with the magic rules devs just to understand where they were going with it sometimes.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 18 2013, 10:46 AM

There are also some very weird inconsistencies.

Number of hits decides if drain is physical or stun, yet the drain itself doesn't depend on hits, but on force instead.
Additionally for a lot of spells, force is not the deciding factor, limit is.

So by casting a force 1 spell with reagents you can imitate the effect of a force X spell, with force 1 drain that fits in a force 1 sustaining focus.

That's practically begging for houserules.


The only reason alchemy isn't completely messed up like that is because the force is really useful for the triggered effect.
(Although preparing a large bunch of low force items with negligible drain at no cost probably isn't such a bad approach either. Just throw a handful of marbles into someone's face (using touch trigger and a GLOVE) that hurt a bit more than your regular glass bead )

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 18 2013, 07:43 PM

Pp. 305-306 "The Spellcasting Test uses the preparation’s Potency in place of Spellcasting, and the preparation’s Force in place of Magic (with the Force also serving as the limit)."

To do this, I would try to be a good alchemist because those net hits are essential, and the Force opposes the Alchemy Test. Otherwise, you'd be limited to low Force preparations and your punches would be weaker than your actual fist. Magic is barely damaging in 5e.

Posted by: tasti man LH Sep 19 2013, 01:40 AM

...and not a single mention of summoning a massive anthroform mech/drone by yelling the phrase "We need Megazord power, now!!" ?

Shameful...

Posted by: Fiddler Sep 19 2013, 04:42 AM

I tried that and now that spirit is turning everyone into trees
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/5876f2aced/don-cheadle-is-captain-planet

Posted by: toturi Sep 19 2013, 05:02 AM

6? I thought there were only 5.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 19 2013, 05:03 AM

Double Post - sorry

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 19 2013, 05:14 AM

So, possibly a good idea to go through the Alchemy rules when talking about using Alchemy.

You want to make a Force 16 Punch item.

Now, first off, there is a lot of debate on whether or not you would end up triggering the contact when you put the gloves on - (this part of the rules needs clarification) but lets assume you can.

Step 1: Choose the Spell - Punch

Step 2: Choose the force - page 304 - you can't use a force higher than twice your magic - which means you would need an 8 magic - just like a mage casting the spell.

Step 3: Choose lynchpin - your glove thing

Step 4: Contact +1 Drain

Step 5: Spend 16 minutes making the preparation, and then make an Alchemy+Magic[Force] opposed by Force.
So, on average, you are opposed by about 5 successes, we will assume you roll 6 Alchemy, +2 specialization, +8 for magic is 16 dice, throw in another 5 dice for foci or spirit assistance for 21 dice, and you average about 7 hits, so 2 net hits. That gives you a Potency of 2. This means your spell will last a total of 6 hours.

Step 6: Resist Drain - you resist 11 Stun - let's assume combined stats of 11 (max in char gen for a human) - so you are going to take about 6-8 boxes of stun on average. Assuming a Willpower of 6, and a Body of 5, you are going to average about 3 boxes of healing per hour, so you will need to rest 2-3 hours before your damage is healed.

Step 7 Use the Preparation - you now roll Potency+Force [Force] against your target. So, 20 dice - which he then resists with Reaction+Intuition, and then with Body and Armor.

Which means it is hardly worth it. With 20 dice, you aren't going to need a Limit of higher than - let's call it 10 (you aren't going to need a limit that high very often, either).

Which means that a Spellcaster can cast the Punch at Force 10, and he can fairly easily generate 20 dice to cast the spell - (spellcasting + specialization +Magic + foci, etc) - and then he resists a Drain damage value of 4 - which he should be able to reduce to nothing - all without the need for the 2-3 hours of rest, plus the limit of 6 hours on the preparation, etc.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 19 2013, 07:09 AM

Oh boy, I am so blind... my only excuse is that I wrote the text during a telephone conference and apparently mixed up the pages in between. Can't even chalk it up to bad rule writing, it is all there and well explained. Mea culpa...

Seems like my first impression is true. Alchemy is very underpowered or let's call it circumstantial.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 09:05 AM

Alchemy is underpowered, but only on direct damage output. It's true strength is buffs, as an alchemist can bolster their allies without hindering their own abilities through both ignoring the sustaining penalty and have dealt with the drain well in advance. Also, I believe multiple alchemical preparations can be activated simultaneously, thus allowing them to bypass the normal action economy.

Alchemy is very strong, almost to the point of gamebreakingly so, but requires preparation and forethought that most magic does not and is both highly obvious on the astral plane and vulnerable to disenchanting.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 19 2013, 11:11 AM

2: Of course you need half the Force.
3: I was thinking a spike on a set of brass knuckles that can be screwed on and off. Anyway it's not important. Maybe the end of a fighting stick or something.
5: I would try to surpass those assumptions to almost always get 8 hits, or choose Force 14 or 15. Net hits are vital.
6: I would surpass that drain pool in various ways. I might even pick the Quick Healer quality for 3 Karma at chargen and raise Body. Drain is less if I have to go for Force 14 or 15.
7: I would expect even fewer than 20 dice, but it would be nice to have that many. Let's say 18. I hope to be able to hit with an non-damaging attack and then hope to beat their Reaction + Initiative, which could be as much as 20 dice, or 21 with Exceptional Attribute, and more if they are blocking, parrying, on full defense or by any number of modifiers. There will be people I simply can not hit, so I would need another strategy. If I hit, then what that will do is give high damage along with high AP (14-16, depending on Force). I think this would be a one hit knockout against many kinds of enemies.

As a side note, the Increase Reflexes spell needs 8 hits to get the maximum +4 dice. Having a Magic of 8 will let that work with Stun drain too.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 19 2013, 12:02 PM

Are we talking about a starting character? If not, all good.

If so, you are going to have a limited amount of attributes/karma to do this, so for 6, how exactly are you increasing that drain pool? Assuming you are human, and a Shamanic tradition if you have a 6 Willpower, then you can only have a 5 Charisma (since you can't start with two stats at natural maximum), which also means you can have only a 5 Body as well. If you want to cast something at Force 14, you need a Magic of 7, which means Exceptional Attribute, which means 14 of your 25 karma. If you want to speed up your healing time, Quick Healer helps, as does the proper Mentor Spirit - but that will mean you aren't getting a Mentor Spirit buff to your Alchemy test, but again, unless you add cyberware, which will reduce your Magic, you can only have a Body of 5. (and this also eats up 13 of your attribute points).

If you are planning on having a Magic of 8, remember that means you are going to have to get a minimum of 53 karma (on top of the 14 for EA)

Now, given all of that, you are still talking about a pretty decent attack (since for some reason Punch, Clout, and Blast are considered Indirect) - but it can only be done once or twice a day.

The downside of alchemy - if you are an Aspected Alchemist, that is - is that your ability only helps if you have time to prepare for it - so, runs that are time sensitive, for example, prevent you from having all your preparations done.

Fueldrop is correct though, you are better off with using Alchemy for Buffs, which usually require a lower force, which then means lower drain, less time to make the preparation, and less time to heal any drain, which means more preparations in less time. They will sustain themselves for a number of minutes equal to the force, which is good certainly for the duration of combat.

Personally, and this is just me, but an Cover Ops/Infiltration Expert built as Attributes/Skills/Resources/Magic/Race would be a cool niche character to play (and one of the few times I would play an Aspected Magician).

Grab 2 points of Cyberware and bioware and then 5 karma to bring your Magic attribute up to 1, and then use Alchemy for buffs/distractions and do damage with weapons. Cast most of your preps at force 2, so they take 2 minutes to make, do almost no drain, and use reagents to increase the limit so you can get a higher potency.

Great examples include:
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Mindlink
Heal
Increase Reflexes (remember that this stacks with other spells/ware - you just can exceed 5d6 - so one piece of cyberware you get with your money could be Synaptic 1)
Resist Pain
Stabilize
Trid Entertainment (for distractions)
Armor
Levitate
Magic Fingers
Mana/Physical Barrier
Shadow

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 19 2013, 12:59 PM

I couldn't remember.

Posted by: Fiddler Sep 19 2013, 02:16 PM

It's ok at least you didn't ask for wands to be made to give schoolgirls powers to fight the monster of the week... Well now i've said it... Off to the alchemy lab.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 02:23 PM

Yes, but you better toss in an armor spell with that because if I see a schoolgirl go all glowy/glittery as this strange music kicks in, I am NOT going to stand there twiddling my thumbs while they transform.

Instead I am gonna start chucking grenades or unloading the big spells or headshot someone before they finish.

Posted by: Fiddler Sep 19 2013, 02:30 PM

I'll just make sure transformations occur within a time dilation field.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 19 2013, 07:25 PM

No way. I was thinking an initiate with Centering metamagic for drain and flat out paying the extra 40 Karma to raise (Exceptional) Magic 7 to 8.

The major costs are initiating, Magic 8, Exceptional Attribute (Magic), and other things to get the Alchemy dice pool really high, Armed/Unarmed Combat, and especially the very high attributes. I would probably pay 1 Karma each to Quicken some Increase Attribute spells. I know the GM would probably make infiltration impossible for me, have me arrested, and eventually just have some dragon dispell them all. There's also the limiting factor of having spells split between Spellcasting and Alchemy.

The synergy is that the higher Magic is helpful in lots of ways other than alchemy, as is the Centering metamagic, as are the high attributes. Rather than being just good at one thing, this approach could make a character good at quite a lot.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 09:54 PM

You know, there's nothing in the rules that prevents an alchemist from enchanting a dozen lengths of Meccano with potency 6 stunbolts, all with the same command word, bolting them together into a single wand, then pulling that out and hitting the target with a dozen low-end spells at once. Sure, time limitations are an issue here, but a bunch of minor preparations > 1 big preparation.

Posted by: Slithery D Sep 20 2013, 12:48 AM

You don't use a command word, or at least not only that; you have to concentrate on the one thing you're activating and mentally targeting at something. It also violates the "one attack per phase" rule.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 20 2013, 04:34 AM

By the way he set it up, it is one attack... it is just a really big one. No different, really, than Autofire in SR4.

Posted by: Cain Sep 20 2013, 06:38 AM

That's just a really big spirit. Six really big spirits, that combine to form a single Great Form.

Posted by: toturi Sep 20 2013, 06:48 AM

Is there any ability to mesmerise someone into inaction? Or at least non-hostile action?

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 20 2013, 11:27 AM

Yes there is.

Page 305:

"The preparation is triggered by you. You
must be on the physical plane (or manifest if you’re astrally
projecting), have line of sight to the preparation
(as defined for Spellcasting, p. 281), and take a Simple
Action to trigger the preparation. You have some control
over the preparation’s target with this trigger. This
trigger adds +2 Drain to the creation of the preparation.
Command triggers are the only triggers preparation with
healing spells can have."

It takes a Simple Action to trigger the preparation. It doesn't say "a simple action to trigger ANY/ALL preparations", it says "THE preparation."

There is no mention whatsoever in the rules of allowing you to daisy-chain multiple preparations together using a single command word.

In the Multiple Attacks section, it doesn't say that you can use a Free Action to "trigger a number of preparations = Magic or Magic/2" or whatever.

Preparations also don't set one another off when they go off, so it isn't as if triggering one of those preparations in close proximity of the others would set them off.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 11:55 AM

Technically it says 'the preparation', because it describes a property of said preparation - you can recognize that easily because the first sentence is passive.
There is no RAW that says an identical property can not apply to more than one object of type 'preparation'.

Therefore you could fulfil the trigger requirement of multiple such objects at the same time.


Technically YOU're only doing ONE attack action (triggering a bunch of preparations). The preparations are also only doing one attack action each.
It could be compared to throwing a grenade every phase for a couple of phases and having them set up to all explode at the same time.


You could reasonably argue, that for preparations with spell type 'line of sight', a restriction applies because the target must explicitely be chosen.

EDIT:
Another analogon: Let's say you rig a location with a bunch of explosive charges to be triggered remotely by you pressing a button. Would you seriously try to tell me those charges would have to go off separately, the speed of which to be determined by the number of IPs i have and that while those charges go off i would not be allowed to take any other offensive action? Really?

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 20 2013, 12:42 PM

No, you can't. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can set off multiple preparations at the same time, and the standard for most non-munchkin gamers is not "the rules don't say I CAN'T do it, so therefore I CAN", the standard is "the rules don't say I CAN do it, so I CAN'T."

There are specific rules covering multiple attacks in the same phase, which I quoted, and you can look at page 164 and 196. I don't see anywhere it lists Preparations.

With regards to your explosives and grenades example, the rules cover simultaneous blasts on page 183, and explosives on page 436. So there are definitive rules on how it works, and your example is invalid, as there are specific rules telling you how to do it.

Not to mention, the REASON that they do it this way is that otherwise it would allow you to make multiple spell attacks in the same action phase without

EITHER

The penalty of having to split your dice pool (if you used the Multiple Attack Free Action and Cast a Spell Complex Action)

OR

Increasing your drain by +3 per spell by using the Reckless Spellcasting Action (which would apply if you were using only one combat spell along with one or more non-combat spells)

OR

The limit on the number of spells you could cast at the same time.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 01:12 PM

The rules clearly say:
'A preparation releases its spell when a condition called the trigger is met.'

All my character is doing, is fulfilling a condition. It doesn't matter, how many objects that condition applies to.
Multiple attack rules do not apply, because the only reason why this SIMPLE ACTION counts as an attack at all is because the intend is to harm someone.
MY character is NOT using multiple weapons or performing multiple actions, the actual ATTACK is performed by the preparation, which my char just happens to trigger - i.e. his action only gets the attack flag by proxy for triggering a bunch of actions that are actual attacks.


And it's quite true, for something like a bunch of fireball marbles it makes perfect sense to use the simultanious blast rules.
Nice pointing that out.


(Imagine the hilarity when your opposition laughs at you for trying to trip them with a handful of marbles. And then you softly whisper 'kaboom'...)




Well, of course no spellcasting rules apply, you are triggering a preset command via a simple action.
The difference in the wording of 'using a preparation' to 'casting a spell' might be a tiny hint.

Your demolitions specialist is not rolling for simultaniously setting up a bunch of charges either, because the rolls happen during the PREPARATION phase, not during the combat phase.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 20 2013, 01:19 PM

It says:

A preparation releases its spell when a condition called
the trigger is met. Choose a trigger type for the preparation.
The trigger you pick can add to the Drain Value
of the preparation.
Command: The preparation is triggered by you. You
must be on the physical plane (or manifest if you’re astrally
projecting), have line of sight to the preparation
(as defined for Spellcasting, p. 281), and take a Simple
Action to trigger the preparation. You have some control
over the preparation’s target with this trigger. This
trigger adds +2 Drain to the creation of the preparation.
Command triggers are the only triggers preparation with
healing spells can have.


Note that it doesn't talk anywhere about how to adjudicate multiple preparations being set off simultaneously - that's because the rules to do that don't exist.

Please show me ANYWHERE in the rules that says you can set off multiple preparations with the same command trigger.

Please show me ANYWHERE in the rules that says you can have multiple preparations all using the same command trigger.

(The way that the rules specifically talk about using demolitions and grenades).

When you do, then you will have a point.

Until then, you are trying to make the rules do what you WANT them to say, rather than what they ACTUALLY say.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 20 2013, 01:24 PM

Just to throw in my opinion:

NO on the Command stuff. It is pretty clear: A simple action is needed for each preperation to activate.

However, I don't see how to argue similarly for Contact trigger. I can see how you can't throw more than one grenade (and why should you), but a couple of marbles? Or some kind of mechanism that brings several buff preperation (obviously only non-Health is eligible) at once into contact with you or your favourite person. Say Armor, Combat Sense and Invisibility?

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 01:46 PM

This does raise a very good point on use of Command.

I would assume that the COMMAND action combines the command word itself plus some means of designating which item I am commanding to blow.

Otherwise if I was carrying a bag of marbles and planning to use them separately through the run I would need different commands for each and everyone lest I accidently set the lot off by accident upon my person.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 01:56 PM

Clearly states the ACTING party is the preparation. It also defines the word trigger.



Again, clearly states the preparation is the actor (in this case the passive recipient of a condition (that's what trigger is defined as above).
Coincidentally, this actually places a restriction on the condition - i.e. a command trigger can solely be triggered by the alchemist himself.



It NOWHERE states that said simple action is magical - or even that it must be done with the intent to set off the preparation.
It only has to fulfil the trigger condition.



It doesn't have to say so, because i am NOT setting off multiple preparations. The preparations (as active - or rather, passive party) are set off after a CONDITION is met.



It says the command trigger is a condition that must be met, nothing else.
Exceptions from the general rule must be expressely stated, and if no two preparations could have the same trigger, that would be an exception to the general rule.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 20 2013, 02:04 PM

Here is where it gets much murkier. The problem is the wording "The next living being to touch the preparation activates the spell."

It is really vague on how to adjudicate what "the next living being" means.

Example:

"A Death Touch alchemical spell with a touch trigger bound
to a credstick, acid-etched with a haiku in kanji. It is left in
some barrens, just waiting for someone to pick it up."

Easy enough, the caster makes the preparation, puts it down, and the next living being to touch it gets hit with a Death Touch Spell.

The question is, does the caster touch it when he makes it? I.e., Rikki the Rat Shaman creates that preparation above. Does he have to touch it to make it? (Not that I am suggesting it would go off during the preparation, but does that mean that when he finishes the preparation, he is now holding it, and so he is not the "next" living being to touch it, he is still holding it. Now, he can put it down, or throw it at someone, and it will go off then.

OR

Does he finish it, and now it is lying there, waiting for someone to touch it - INCLUDING him?

Which brings up the next point - what counts as a "living being"? Does that mean if I pick up the credstick with gloves, will it go off? What if I pick it up with a tool, such as a a shovel? How close does it have to be to me to actually get triggered?

Now, you could say that you follow the rules for "Touch" ranged spells (page 281)

"Some spells can only be cast on targets that you’re
touching. You don’t need to see these targets, but you
might need to make an unarmed attack to make contact
with an unwilling target. Touching a target through
clothing, armor, or a layer of paint is acceptable."

But it doesn't actually say that anywhere.

In my opinion, it is the first way, i.e. the caster finishes the preparation and is now holding it, and may now throw it or put it down somewhere (although it does open more issues - more on that later).

As far as throwing two different marbles as two separate actions, each with a Fireball would definitely count as two attacks. Not because of the marbles, but because of the Fireballs.

Throwing multiple buff spells, however, would clearly be in the rules or even just handing your friend the 3 marbles, each with Armor, Combat Sense, and Invisibility.

Interestingly enough, that means if you want those three spells to affect the caster, he would have to put them down on the ground, and then pick them up again.


Now, for some more issues with the contact trigger. What if I put it on a bullet? Or multiple bullets? I fire a 3 round burst. Does it hit the guy with 3 fireballs, plus the bullet damage? Or 1? What about on 20 bullets and then I fire suppression fire? Does everyone who gets hit by the suppression fire also set off a fireball?

Now, you can figure out how to adjudicate this as you see fit, my problem is that the rules are just so vague on this point that it upsets me that such sloppiness went into the writing. I don't POSSIBLY see how the writers could have missed the whole - "wait, I want to make a bullet my preparation" and then failed to put in any cohesive ruling on it.

There are supposedly errata "on the way" but who knows how long it will be before then. Until then, the contact triggers are a little bit of a mess.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 20 2013, 02:10 PM

@Chinane

Guy, when you are at the point where you need to start talking about active and passive voice, and trying to pry apart the paragraphs to dissect and diagram the sentences, you are losing sight of the forest for the trees.

Do whatever you want in your games, live long and prosper, and I hope you enjoy them.

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 20 2013, 02:33 PM

They have been scrambling over this on that other forum, and one of the semi-official words have been no preps on bullets, with the reason being as the impact on hitting wrecks the item, it fizzles out the prep, some were even claiming the scraping of the bullet down the barrel likewise could ruin it but that is still debatable.

So I suspect the errata in the end will say no to bullets, but knives and arrows are fine.

Now here is a thought for double whammy.

Take a grenade and change the primer so that it is fire sensitive. Yes all grenades will usually cook off in a fire eventually, but we want it to go off right away so the top of primer gets adjusted. Maybe put a protective cap over it for general carrying around.

Prep a fireball on it with a command trigger or whatever you want. Set the grenade for the standard 6 sec delay and throw the grenade. Use command to trigger the fireball as the grenade has not blown yet so the prep is intact. Fireball cooks the area as well as cooks off the grenade's primer which sets off the boom. Why set the delay at all? just in case something interrupts the user and they can't get the command off they still got a live grenade to deal with.

Then they can not argue that preps won't work on a grenade since in this case the prep is going off before the grenade's form is wrecked so the prep is intact.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 20 2013, 03:40 PM

Am I the only one that sees the absurdity in that? Does that mean I can choose a throwing knife as a fireball lynchpin but be unable to throw it because it's two attacks?

I've been putting off disecting the rules to show how weak the argument that the "one attack rule" covers every conceivable thing that could negatively affect an enemy really is.

Posted by: Lobo0705 Sep 20 2013, 04:05 PM

I agree completely that the "one attack per action phase" is a stupid rule. Specifically because it allows for all sorts of oddities that never happened before in Shadowrun before because there was no artificial rule against multiple attacks per turn, so now you have all sorts of actions that are NOW a problem that weren't before.

Here is how ridiculous it is (not least of which is because the restriction to "one attack action per phase" is so inadequately codified.

Throwing a knife as a simple action. Legal.

Throwing two knives as one simple action, at one target, at short or medium range, with the multiple attack action. Legal.

Throwing two knives as one simple action, at two different targets, even next to each other, at short range. Illegal.

Throwing two knives as two simple actions, whether at one target or at two. Illegal.

Throwing a knife used as a preparation for an attack spell as a simple action. Legal.

Throwing two knives as one simple action, at one target, at short or medium range, with the multiple attack action, each one used as a preparation for a fireball spell. Legal.

Throwing two knives as one simple action, at two different targets, even next to each other, at short range each one used as a preparation for a fireball spell. Illegal.

I understand what they were TRYING to do, but I feel like no one actually ever PLAYED the game.

Also legal, coating a knife in toxin and then stabbing someone with it - clearly that is two attacks in one - but legal.

Lots of debate on how Shock Gloves work - do I get to punch you and do normal damage and then you get hit with the shock damage as well? I would say yes - but that again breaks the spirit of the rule.

Posted by: Chinane Sep 20 2013, 04:18 PM

Yeah, tell me about the tedium of breaking down a paragraph into parts small enough that the recipient of your explanation can grasp them.

Unfortunately it's the only way to communicate with the somewhat limited individuals of the 'it's not explcitely stated in the rules' faction, which often have no concept of the fact that there are logical implications from the way words are phrased.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 20 2013, 11:12 PM

Thanks for your thorough analysis. I actually like the idea of needing to split up your dice pool to attack more than once in a Combat Action. What I think is ludicrous is then taking a player's intent into account when deciding what an attack is.

Posted by: xsansara Sep 21 2013, 09:39 AM

Well, the one-attack rule could certainly be lawyered that way. I would counter this with pointing out that you can mass-order drones. But yeah, pushing a button and shooting may or may not fit in one "IP" anymore, depending on whether the button triggers an explosion or changes your music selection.

Also I agree with Shemhazai. In principle, I agree with the rulewriters that it will improve balance and playability, if you can only attack once per round, but the way it is phrased right now, it is very unclear and does not mesh well with the Reality. I think the following mechanics would all suit the purpose better:
- make a semi-exhaustive list of what does constitute an attack action (or simply mark the actions in the already existing list)
- convert all simple attack actions into complex actions, buffing them in the process.
- Introduce speed into the initiative system, e.g. making a simple action subtracts 5 from your initiative and a complex action subtracts 10 from your initiative for the next round.

Also, some clearer writing concerning both the contact trigger and to a lesser degree the command trigger would be appreciated. Hell, for contact, it does not even say explicitly how the target of the spell is chosen. If you really want to make me happy, please add something like a potion trigger, which activates when consumed. On the other hand, I could easily do away with the time trigger, as accurate time keeping does not seem to work well with the fluff of Magic.

Posted by: Shemhazai Sep 21 2013, 12:16 PM

I believe that healing spells can only have command triggers to prevent creating healing potions. The alchemist must still be there for the healing to happen.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Sep 22 2013, 04:31 PM

Chinane, keeping it civil doesn't just mean insulting people in a civil way.