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Posted by: TalonZorch Sep 19 2013, 09:22 AM

Hi,

I am currently preparing some cheat sheets for SR 5 and I am wondering if there is no modifier for the target Size.

I even searched the pdf, dumpshock and google, and failed to find anything.

How is it to be handled to shoot at a target smaller then a metahuman?

Posted by: Surukai Sep 19 2013, 10:47 AM

In SR4 you got +1 to hit targets of 8+ in body.

In think you could find some info that still is valid for SR5 in SR5 book about perception and small items. If I recall right you have -6 to spot (And I rule it shoot) a small tag. (You don't, however, get +8 dice to shoot a Katana even if you get +8 to notice that someone is carrying it)

Posted by: Jack VII Sep 19 2013, 12:39 PM

No rules that I can find. Assuming you have spotted both, it's just as easy to shoot a Shiawase Kanmushi microdrone at 5 meters as it is to shoot a troll.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 19 2013, 12:46 PM

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3092/2653242919_09033a174d_o.jpg

Posted by: Surukai Sep 19 2013, 12:52 PM

Maybe there is something written together with "Called shots"?

Given how low resolution (and lack of sense) in the range table it is quite safe to assume target size is not important.

A 2m metahuman at 500m distance (typical long range for a mere -6 according to shadowrun, just about impossible to hit in real life) is like a 2cm tall and 5mm wide microhuman at 5m distance, ignoring projectile speed, wind, and all other things that realistically would make long distance shooting even harder.

So, I guess target size doesn't really matter in SR5 and it makes things easier. A big car has a poor "dodge" pool so maybe that evens things out?

Edit: Stahlseele your image was hilarious!

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 19 2013, 01:09 PM

Yeah, SR3 had some more Size-Rules than SR4. Not that many to begin with though.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 03:04 PM

Ummm... Not impossible to hit at all... In fact, the Marine Corps actually qualifies at that range on Man size silhouettes, with an AR (M-16) and open sights (at least they did when I was in). I can guarantee you that hitting a 2m tall target at that range is NOT about impossible IRL. In fact, I routinely hit 10/10 at that range, using all the little foibles like wind velocity and direction, etc that you list above. Realistically, hitting at 500 meters (for me, at least) is not even hard, let alone "just about impossible" as you claim.

Posted by: thorya Sep 19 2013, 03:16 PM

But then again, hitting a 2cm tall, 5 mm wide (roughly 3/4" by 1/4") target at 5m isn't impossible either.

Though, I wonder how accuracy changes when under fire with adrenaline coursing through your veins, since it seems like that level of accuracy is never actually achieved in the field.

Posted by: Major Doom Sep 19 2013, 03:44 PM

Arsenal (SR4A) had additional rules for target size modifier under the More Ways To Die chapter, specifically under Advanced Combat Rules, page 161 (I have Arsenal second printing). For example, micro-targets the size of insects or microdrones, incurred a -6 penalty. There is information for micro, mini, small, large, and massive targets. You can easily use those modifiers for SR5.

Posted by: Medicineman Sep 19 2013, 03:46 PM

German Arsenal 2070 for SR4A(Page 169) has :
Tiny Target ( Insect, Microdrones) -6
very small Target(Small Rodents, Minidrones) -4
Small Target(Cats, lil Dogs, Kids)-2
Large Target (Some Orks, most Trolls,Horses) +1
Very Large Target (small Buildings, Trucks,Hovercraft) +2

HougH!
Medicineman

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 19 2013, 04:04 PM

Attacking a BUILDING only gives +2 dice?
It'd assume as long as it's in reach it's an automatic hit . .
Seeing how Buildings are pretty bad at dodging and stuff.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 19 2013, 04:04 PM

*Royal Canterlot Voice* The Posting has been doubled!

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 04:15 PM

Well the phrase 'Can't hit the broadside of a barn' had to come from somewhere......

Posted by: Isath Sep 19 2013, 04:23 PM

Well, I'd guess, that most GM wouldn't object if you use the rules for buying successes on a building, if the situation would even call for roll at all.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 04:37 PM

Sounds about what you get with indoor target shooting and air rifles. Bullseyes are not much different than that, though ranges were a bit farther (10m?) IIRC (been WAY too many years since I involved myself in such things).

Yeah... field accuracy statistics (and adrenaline, fear, whatever) is a wierd thing. Probably because there is a lot of Spray and Pray fire, rather than actual Disciplined Fire, going on. However, in live fire exercises, I can say that if you practice disciplined fire control, you can hit better than the statistics would indicate. Sadly, not always does it happen like you want it to (well never, apparently, according to the statistics) .

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 04:47 PM

Just remember some buildings shoot back.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 04:56 PM

Those are the ones that you avoid... Duh!

Posted by: Sendaz Sep 19 2013, 05:39 PM

http://ls.blindferret.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/f/lfg-orphanage-small-black.png

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 19 2013, 06:32 PM

Heh... How Rude.

Posted by: FuelDrop Sep 19 2013, 10:27 PM

The rules in 5th specify that you automatically hit structures unless you critically glitch. not sure if that helps.

Posted by: Isath Sep 19 2013, 10:56 PM

It sure helps with hitting buildings.

Posted by: Voran Sep 20 2013, 12:34 AM

I figured it was due to the odd interaction of 'hit and damage' that SR mechanics have. Just because you can shoot and HIT an aircraft carrier, doesn't mean you can damage it. But the way its setup in SR, if you roll really well, you can shoot a tank with a rifle and do damage.

Posted by: TalonZorch Sep 20 2013, 06:36 AM

Thank you.

As in SR 5 the number of dice and therefore the threshold changed, but the target number (5+6) staid the same, it should be somewhat comparable.

I would try to implement in the way, the situational modifiers are implemented. And - although Arsenal states that trolls count as large targets, I would not include this into the table and count trolls as "metahuman" for the sake of determining the size of the target, as this would negatively imply on troll characters - and therefore should be compensated in some way in character creation. Also I do not think that you shall be able to generate positive dice pool modifiers by your equipment based on the targets size, just have to be able to reduce a given penalty. As the small target has to be found and correctly acquired - I think of giving the Vision Enhancement the ability to undo the negative effects.

A possible rule would be:

Target Size Modifier
Like the name implies, target size modifiers reflect the size of the target. To determine the target size modifier select the size of the target from the table, and reduce the dice pool modifier by the shooters Vision Enhancement Rating. By reducing the negative dice pool modifier via Vision Enhancement the dice pool modifier can not become positive. All Metahumans count as normal sized targets, unless specified in your metahuman race description or stated by your game master.

Tiny target: -6 || Example: Insect, Microdrone, etc.
Very small target: -4 || Example: big insects, small rodents, Minidrones, etc.
Small target: -2 || Examples: Cats, little dogs, small drones, small children, etc.
Large target: +1 || Examples: Trees, Horses and similar huge creatures, etc.
Very Large target: +2 (or more, based on gamemasters decision) || Examples: Trucks, Hovercrafts, Dragons, etc.

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What's your opinion of it?