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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Assaults Rifles vs. Machine Guns
Posted by: paws2sky Oct 5 2013, 12:48 AM
I'm developing an ex-mercenary character and I'm sketching out his gear wish list to get an idea how much cash I'll need.
I was all set to grab an Ingram Valiant when I got a bit of sticker shock. Looking for options, I noticed the Ares Alpha. Specifically, I noticed how much better it seems to be, overall. More firing modes, better base damage, one point worse AP, slightly smaller ammo capacity, about half the price, etc. I get that LMGs (and bigger) aren't really shadowrunner weapons, but is there any reason that they're this much worse than assault rifles?
Am I right in my analysis? Or am I overlooking some crucial advantage that machineguns have over assault rifles (ideally one that would matter to a 'runner)?
Posted by: Lobo0705 Oct 5 2013, 03:03 AM
The only thing a machine gun is better at than an assault rifle is that it has a higher ammo capacity, and thus is better at putting down suppressing fire.
Other than that, with double recoil and being much more expensive, they are a terrible option.
Posted by: Remnar Oct 5 2013, 03:07 AM
I am sad they didn't get rid of the double recoil thing. Why on earth a weapon that fires the same round (by damage code) at the same rate of fire (by FA limit), AND is bigger/heavier, would fire with DOUBLE recoil is beyond my understanding or suspension of disbelief.
But, sadly, it's a quirk of Shadowrun.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 5 2013, 03:13 AM
mostly range.
although i do tend to agree, the machine guns should be better than they are, they do have the advantage of a much greater extreme range.
edit: well that and potentially the fact that you get a heck of a lot more sheer variety of uses from the skill. i mean, automatics is a wonderful skill to have, but it doesn't cover grenade launchers or missile launchers, which are considerably better in 5th edition than in 4th.
Posted by: Dolanar Oct 5 2013, 03:28 AM
so realistically, after the Arsenal book comes out & we likely end up with options for modding the type of ammo feed we use, I imagine Machine Guns will not be used much at all.
Posted by: Lobo0705 Oct 5 2013, 03:31 AM
While I will grant you they have a longer range, the Ingram Valiant's extreme range of 800 meters as opposed to the 550 meters of the Ares Alpha doesn't make up for the fact that it is twice as expensive, less accurate, generates far more recoil, does LESS damage, and doesn't have a grenade launcher.
I've played Shadowrun for literally decades, and can count on one hand the number of times when I was engaging targets at that range when it wasn't a job that was supposed to get done with a sniper rifle, rather than an LMG.
Your experience may be different, and that's just my opinion, for what its worth.
Posted by: quentra Oct 5 2013, 03:45 AM
I once used an LMG to mow down the front of a nightclub in a Caracas, using a machine sprite to assist me in 'rigging' the servo-mounted LMG. Many people died. I was wearing Punisher body armour. Oh, good times. Good times.
Posted by: paws2sky Oct 5 2013, 04:27 AM
Oh, wow. I hadn't even accounted for the double recoil.
Thanks for the replies!
-paws
Posted by: FuelDrop Oct 5 2013, 04:44 AM
Machine guns excel at 2 things over assault rifles:
1) Being intimidating. It's a M*****F****** machine gun, and you're lugging it around! Most street-level opposition is going to suddenly remember an appointment and flee in the other direction.
2) Suppression fire. Massive ammunition capacity makes machine guns the go to weapon for pinning your enemy down.
Outside of that, assault rifles so far trump machine guns in most respects.
Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.
Posted by: Remnar Oct 5 2013, 05:36 AM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 4 2013, 07:44 PM) 
Machine guns excel at 2 things over assault rifles:
1) Being intimidating. It's a M*****F****** machine gun, and you're lugging it around! Most street-level opposition is going to suddenly remember an appointment and flee in the other direction.
2) Suppression fire. Massive ammunition capacity makes machine guns the go to weapon for pinning your enemy down.
Outside of that, assault rifles so far trump machine guns in most respects.
Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.
1) Being intimidating. It's a M*****F****** machine gun, and you're lugging it around! Most street-level opposition is going to suddenly remember an appointment and flee in the other direction.
2) Suppression fire. Massive ammunition capacity makes machine guns the go to weapon for pinning your enemy down.
Outside of that, assault rifles so far trump machine guns in most respects.
Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.
Seconded, battle rifles rock. IRL I love my M1A and 7.6mm AR, I just imagine if I had gyro stabilization or the STR stat to use them recoil free.
Posted by: Umidori Oct 5 2013, 06:35 AM
Back in SR4, I played a rather Pink Mohawk character with a modded Ingram White Knight, exploiting the massive factory-default RC to get full RC compensation for full bursts. (This in a Bug City Chicago setting, so visual subtlety wasn't as important as not making noise and stirring up the hive until you had to.)
Of course, that was back when you could boost your damage by +9DV with a narrow burst, allowing me to put out massive damage against big insect spirit nasties without suffering any recoil, and I could make proper use of the high ammo capacity to gun down multiple targets without stopping to reload - useful when facing swarms. No assault rifle could come close to that sort of performance.
Now, though... eh... they really missed an opportunity to make machine guns useful niche weapons. At least they made shotties attractive?
~Umi
Posted by: paws2sky Oct 5 2013, 02:31 PM
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 4 2013, 11:44 PM)
Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.
Hmm. The Crockett is an interesting option. Expensive though. I'll see if I can find the nuyen for it.
QUOTE (Umidori @ Oct 5 2013, 01:35 AM)
Now, though... eh... they really missed an opportunity to make machine guns useful niche weapons. At least they made shotties attractive?
Agree on both points.
I miss my old school CMDT, but the Enfield seems like a fair replacement. Shame there's not underbarrel grenade launcher accessory (seems like a strang thing to exclude).
Posted by: Lobo0705 Oct 5 2013, 04:07 PM
I'm assuming all the add-ons and customizations you could ask for will be in Run and Gun. (at least I would hope they are).
Posted by: kzt Oct 6 2013, 02:38 AM
SR has always been very odd about guns. Pistols do virtually (if not exactly) the same damage as rifles, the crazy and ineffectual shotguns, belt-fed MGs pretty much pointless, etc. You either figure out what the 5 guns in the game are worth having or you have to redesign the entire system.
Posted by: DrZaius Oct 6 2013, 10:38 PM
To answer the original question, machine guns (at least in Shadowrun) are best used as defensive weapons. They would also be effective as vehicle mounted weapons to remove the recoil penalty. Since Shadowrunners are rarely playing Defense, it makes them a weapon of the opposition (in this case, guards). Having a well mounted machine gun able to pin runners down with suppressive fire is extremely valuable to keeping Joe Rent-a-Cop alive until his high-threat backup arrives. We were messing around with suppressive fire in the last run we had in my game, and it is pretty nasty- especially the dice penalty to actions to those in the suppressed zone.
A quick example:
Joe Rent-A-Cop has been alerted there are Shadowrunners approaching his position, and is able to actually see them before they grease him. For the sake of argument, let's presume Joe is actually trained on the weapon he is currently using. Joe's Agility is 4, and his skill in Heavy Weapons is 4.
Joe is firing a belt-fed, tripod mounted Stoner-Ares M202. It has a base damage of 10P, AP -2. It also has a top-mounted Laser Sight, which he has activated the Wireless on. His machine gun is also firing Tracer rounds.
Joe's dicepool on his suppressive fire test is 9; his Agility of 4, Heavy Weapons of 4, +1 from the Wireless Laser Sight. His limit is the Accuracy of his Machine Gun, in this case is 7; 5 base from the gun, +1 from the laser sight, +1 from the tracer rounds.
Presuming 3 hits on his 9 dice, everyone in the suppressed zone (and immediately adjacent to it) takes a -3 to all actions.
Any character in the field (but not behind cover or prone) must make an Edge + Reaction (3) test, or take 10P, AP -2 damage. Bear in mind that roll is subject to the suppressed zone penalty of -3, making it no cakewalk. If Joe gets just a little lucky, that penalty (and threshold to avoid the damage) can become a -4, -5, -6: extremely handy for keeping runners pinned down.
Joe can do this *all day*. And as insane as it sounds, he can do this up to 1,200 meters away with no penalty. Presume he doesn't see the runners until they're at the edge of his medium range; that's still Long range (-3) to fight back with an assault rifle, plus the penalties from the suppressed zone.
Machine guns aren't great for runners, but they're solid as a choice for a GM to use.
Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 7 2013, 12:32 AM
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Oct 6 2013, 10:38 PM)
To answer the original question, machine guns (at least in Shadowrun) are best used as defensive weapons. They would also be effective as vehicle mounted weapons to remove the recoil penalty. Since Shadowrunners are rarely playing Defense, it makes them a weapon of the opposition (in this case, guards). Having a well mounted machine gun able to pin runners down with suppressive fire is extremely valuable to keeping Joe Rent-a-Cop alive until his high-threat backup arrives. We were messing around with suppressive fire in the last run we had in my game, and it is pretty nasty- especially the dice penalty to actions to those in the suppressed zone.
It seems weird a rentacop would be trained in heavy weapons, at least to me it does.
Its more likely to be attached to a drone, smartfire platform, or an autoturret.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 7 2013, 01:59 AM
"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon and a target rich environment!!!"
"Who hired Kane?"
"Mungo. Apparently they are on each other's Speeddial."
Posted by: FuelDrop Oct 7 2013, 02:05 AM
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 7 2013, 09:59 AM)
"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon and a target rich environment!!!"
"Who hired Kane?"
"Mungo. Apparently they are on each other's Speeddial."
"Who hired Kane?"
"Mungo. Apparently they are on each other's Speeddial."
That explains more than I care to think about.
Posted by: Slide Oct 7 2013, 02:51 AM
At the moment the Ares alpha is better than most MGs at being an MG. I'm sure after the Arsenal equivalent is out you would be able to mod it to being belt fed. And those that say blah blah blah that's not realistic there is an M-16 mod kit out there that makes it a better SAW than the SAW is.
MGs should be horrifying, unfortunately right now they just aren't.
Posted by: kzt Oct 7 2013, 03:07 AM
QUOTE (Slide @ Oct 6 2013, 07:51 PM)
MGs should be horrifying, unfortunately right now they just aren't.
Long guns in general should be horrifying compared to pistols too.
Posted by: DeathStrobe Oct 7 2013, 03:19 AM
QUOTE (Emil Barr @ Oct 6 2013, 05:32 PM)
It seems weird a rentacop would be trained in heavy weapons, at least to me it does.
Its more likely to be attached to a drone, smartfire platform, or an autoturret.
Its more likely to be attached to a drone, smartfire platform, or an autoturret.
Skill softs. Rent-a-cop doesn't know jack, but that doesn't mean the corp didn't stuff him with a few augs to put him in debt to the corp while allowing him to do his job better.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 7 2013, 03:29 AM
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Oct 6 2013, 11:19 PM)
Skill softs. Rent-a-cop doesn't know jack, but that doesn't mean the corp didn't stuff him with a few augs to put him in debt to the corp while allowing him to do his job better.
and suddenly mr rent-a-cop's corpse is worth nigh on a hundred grand instead of fifty bucks (of the UCAS variety). smart thinking rent-a-cop corporation. turn your employees into a gigantic payday for any group of gangers looking to score big.
Posted by: kzt Oct 7 2013, 04:11 AM
To paraphrase Bill Gates from Simpsons: "How do you think we became a rich corporation? Do you think we PAID for that skill soft?"
Posted by: binarywraith Oct 7 2013, 04:32 AM
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 6 2013, 11:11 PM)
To paraphrase Bill Gates from Simpsons: "How do you think we became a rich corporation? Do you think we PAID for that skill soft?"
Nah, but my fence'll sure pay me for it!
Posted by: Jaid Oct 7 2013, 06:39 AM
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Oct 6 2013, 11:32 PM)
Nah, but my fence'll sure pay me for it!
exactly. it doesn't matter if the security corp payed full price or not. the simple fact is, it's worth that much to sell to everyone else (well, everyone else who isn't a megacorp anyways). obviously, you won't get full price for it (although you're getting full value if you wanted a set of skillwires yourself), but it still sells for quite a bit.
then add in the fact that it's a rent-a-cop, and can reasonably expect to be making the sort of people who are low on morals angry (ie the sort of people who are reasonably likely to kill you for the cyberware you've got implanted) on a semi-regular basis, well... i for one wouldn't want to be the manager who made that choice
(although that said, i wouldn't take this sort of thing to a generic fence... this is the sort of thing that you really want an organlegger contact for).
Posted by: mister__joshua Oct 7 2013, 10:59 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 7 2013, 07:39 AM)
exactly. it doesn't matter if the security corp payed full price or not. the simple fact is, it's worth that much to sell to everyone else (well, everyone else who isn't a megacorp anyways). obviously, you won't get full price for it (although you're getting full value if you wanted a set of skillwires yourself), but it still sells for quite a bit.
then add in the fact that it's a rent-a-cop, and can reasonably expect to be making the sort of people who are low on morals angry (ie the sort of people who are reasonably likely to kill you for the cyberware you've got implanted) on a semi-regular basis, well... i for one wouldn't want to be the manager who made that choice
(although that said, i wouldn't take this sort of thing to a generic fence... this is the sort of thing that you really want an organlegger contact for).
then add in the fact that it's a rent-a-cop, and can reasonably expect to be making the sort of people who are low on morals angry (ie the sort of people who are reasonably likely to kill you for the cyberware you've got implanted) on a semi-regular basis, well... i for one wouldn't want to be the manager who made that choice
(although that said, i wouldn't take this sort of thing to a generic fence... this is the sort of thing that you really want an organlegger contact for).
How would someone know that the rent-a-cop had skillwires and a chipped heavy though? I would think that the level of opponent who can figure that out (by scanning or matrix or visual perception or whatever) isn't the sort of opponent who's going to rip cyberware out of a corpse. You know, the professional level. Street level runners are much more likely to, but much less likely to know it's there in the first place. Especially if obtaining said cyberware means storming a machinegun nest, which I think was the scenario we were going with.
Posted by: Shemhazai Oct 7 2013, 12:09 PM
"This is a machine gun. We're going to teach you how to use it."
Posted by: FuelDrop Oct 7 2013, 12:16 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 7 2013, 08:09 PM)
"This is a machine gun. We're going to teach you how to use it."
Occam's razor. A philosophy seldom appreciated these days.
Posted by: thorya Oct 7 2013, 12:37 PM
I prefer the Descartes Dualing Sword. Higher base damage than the razor, even if it has lower AP.
Posted by: Sendaz Oct 7 2013, 12:52 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 7 2013, 01:39 AM)
exactly. it doesn't matter if the security corp payed full price or not. the simple fact is, it's worth that much to sell to everyone else (well, everyone else who isn't a megacorp anyways). obviously, you won't get full price for it (although you're getting full value if you wanted a set of skillwires yourself), but it still sells for quite a bit.
then add in the fact that it's a rent-a-cop, and can reasonably expect to be making the sort of people who are low on morals angry (ie the sort of people who are reasonably likely to kill you for the cyberware you've got implanted) on a semi-regular basis, well... i for one wouldn't want to be the manager who made that choice
(although that said, i wouldn't take this sort of thing to a generic fence... this is the sort of thing that you really want an organlegger contact for).
then add in the fact that it's a rent-a-cop, and can reasonably expect to be making the sort of people who are low on morals angry (ie the sort of people who are reasonably likely to kill you for the cyberware you've got implanted) on a semi-regular basis, well... i for one wouldn't want to be the manager who made that choice
(although that said, i wouldn't take this sort of thing to a generic fence... this is the sort of thing that you really want an organlegger contact for).
Also if you do go down this route, please take the time to run a tag eraser over the goodies and power down/remove any backup power cells they may have.
You would be surprised at the number of gangers who have decided to play 'chop the cop' and are caught with the still bloody parts in the trunk of their ride because it was still transmitting it's ID.
Posted by: DWC Oct 7 2013, 01:32 PM
One other problem with suppressive fire. The penalty is to skill checks. Not being hit isn't a skill check, so the suppressive fire penalty doesn't apply.
Beyond that, machineguns are completely terrible. My Missions character is humping around an M202 and I've gotten disgusted that firing it is so completely a waste of time and nuyen. 10P with an AP of -2 is going to moderately wound a random mook in an armored jacket. To step up to a round that actually hurts (APDS or explosive) means you're spending 160 to 240 nuyen per action of suppressive fire. For 300Y, a semi-auto burst from an MGL-12 will put 20S with an AP of -4 into everyone in an area much larger than the suppression zone, with none of them getting any sort of defense test at all.
Buy a Crockett for range, and MGL-12 for engaging large numbers of targets, and put your MG on the shelf. Even in a vehicle mount, the superior damage code of assault rifles like the Alpha and Raiden mean you come out ahead.
Posted by: DrZaius Oct 7 2013, 02:21 PM
QUOTE (DWC @ Oct 7 2013, 08:32 AM)
One other problem with suppressive fire. The penalty is to skill checks. Not being hit isn't a skill check, so the suppressive fire penalty doesn't apply.
Beyond that, machineguns are completely terrible. My Missions character is humping around an M202 and I've gotten disgusted that firing it is so completely a waste of time and nuyen. 10P with an AP of -2 is going to moderately wound a random mook in an armored jacket. To step up to a round that actually hurts (APDS or explosive) means you're spending 160 to 240 nuyen per action of suppressive fire. For 300Y, a semi-auto burst from an MGL-12 will put 20S with an AP of -4 into everyone in an area much larger than the suppression zone, with none of them getting any sort of defense test at all.
Buy a Crockett for range, and MGL-12 for engaging large numbers of targets, and put your MG on the shelf. Even in a vehicle mount, the superior damage code of assault rifles like the Alpha and Raiden mean you come out ahead.
Beyond that, machineguns are completely terrible. My Missions character is humping around an M202 and I've gotten disgusted that firing it is so completely a waste of time and nuyen. 10P with an AP of -2 is going to moderately wound a random mook in an armored jacket. To step up to a round that actually hurts (APDS or explosive) means you're spending 160 to 240 nuyen per action of suppressive fire. For 300Y, a semi-auto burst from an MGL-12 will put 20S with an AP of -4 into everyone in an area much larger than the suppression zone, with none of them getting any sort of defense test at all.
Buy a Crockett for range, and MGL-12 for engaging large numbers of targets, and put your MG on the shelf. Even in a vehicle mount, the superior damage code of assault rifles like the Alpha and Raiden mean you come out ahead.
I think it comes down to ammo usage, though. I'd imagine with a belt-fed weapon you'd be more willing to throw down more long bursts or full auto actions- making your weapon more effective than it's limited ammo alternative. So it's a trade off- slightly higher damage, or a weapon that won't run out of ammo? Time spent reloading your Ares Alpha is time you aren't putting lead downrange, and I don't believe 100% of all encounters are completed in 1 box of ammo.
Don't get me wrong- machine guns are pretty awful. But I can see their usefulness, at least in limited circumstances.
Posted by: toturi Oct 7 2013, 02:31 PM
QUOTE (mister__joshua @ Oct 7 2013, 06:59 PM)
How would someone know that the rent-a-cop had skillwires and a chipped heavy though? I would think that the level of opponent who can figure that out (by scanning or matrix or visual perception or whatever) isn't the sort of opponent who's going to rip cyberware out of a corpse. You know, the professional level. Street level runners are much more likely to, but much less likely to know it's there in the first place. Especially if obtaining said cyberware means storming a machinegun nest, which I think was the scenario we were going with.
It really depends on the definition of "professional". It is not as if there is a code of conduct for people who do illegal things for other people who cannot be linked to such illegal carrying-ons. A more sensible approach would be to ask if such a highly skilled person would earn more if he did so than if he did not.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 7 2013, 03:30 PM
QUOTE (Slide @ Oct 6 2013, 07:51 PM)
At the moment the Ares alpha is better than most MGs at being an MG. I'm sure after the Arsenal equivalent is out you would be able to mod it to being belt fed. And those that say blah blah blah that's not realistic there is an M-16 mod kit out there that makes it a better SAW than the SAW is.
MGs should be horrifying, unfortunately right now they just aren't.
MGs should be horrifying, unfortunately right now they just aren't.
I heavily disagree that an M16 converted to FA and Belt Feed would make a better SAW than the SAW... I really liked my M16A2... I LOVED my SAW...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 7 2013, 04:11 PM
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Oct 7 2013, 07:21 AM)
I think it comes down to ammo usage, though. I'd imagine with a belt-fed weapon you'd be more willing to throw down more long bursts or full auto actions- making your weapon more effective than it's limited ammo alternative. So it's a trade off- slightly higher damage, or a weapon that won't run out of ammo? Time spent reloading your Ares Alpha is time you aren't putting lead downrange, and I don't believe 100% of all encounters are completed in 1 box of ammo.
Don't get me wrong- machine guns are pretty awful. But I can see their usefulness, at least in limited circumstances.
Don't get me wrong- machine guns are pretty awful. But I can see their usefulness, at least in limited circumstances.
This discussion is a disconnect, though, from Reality to Game. In reality, very few people are willing to risk getting dead by operating in a suppressive fire zone. In the game, hoewver, all it takes is the decision to do so (since no one really dies), and a character with a semi-competant design to almost completely ignore the ramifications of the Suppresion zone. Unfortunately, the mechanics do not support the reality. Suppressive fire from fully automatic weapons designed for sustained fire is a devastating thing. Suppressive fire from fully automatic weapons using grenades is truly horrifying.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 7 2013, 05:48 PM
QUOTE (mister__joshua @ Oct 7 2013, 06:59 AM)
How would someone know that the rent-a-cop had skillwires and a chipped heavy though? I would think that the level of opponent who can figure that out (by scanning or matrix or visual perception or whatever) isn't the sort of opponent who's going to rip cyberware out of a corpse. You know, the professional level. Street level runners are much more likely to, but much less likely to know it's there in the first place. Especially if obtaining said cyberware means storming a machinegun nest, which I think was the scenario we were going with.
because they broadcast their existence. it's a basic matrix perception test, and it doesn't take a heavy investment to make said test successfully (and there is significant motivation to find out in advance whether the cop in question is augmented or not). furthermore, unless you're wiring *all* employees, you're stuck in the same situation as before; your one guy who is (essentially) "trained" to be your heavy weapons specialist gets taken out, and there goes any value your heavy weapons were bringing to the security force. which means you need to chip the whole force (now, they may not know he's running a heavy weapons skillsoft, but the skillwires and skilljack, well, those have to be wireless enabled if you want them to work well).
in SR4, chipping your employees made a lot of sense. it was cheap (quite likely far cheaper than training), it was fast (almost definitely far faster than training), and it meant that the employee was both in debt to you and had no actual skills to take elsewhere; it would be cheaper for someone to wire up their own personnel rather than extracting yours, and the benefit was significant because you could basically have a small workforce that can instantly change their skillset to emulate a very broad range of training.
in SR5, rating 4 skillwires + skilljack represents a 160,000 nuyen value in the person that receives it. 120,000 if you consider that once you've ripped them out, they will undoubtedly count as used cyberware i suppose. that's a pretty significant investment, and i don't care how you look at it, with the level of brutal competition the megas have against each other, even the price for themselves isn't going to be chump change (otherwise someone would offer them at a lower price to take over the market, until they reach roughly the point where the value is correct, since this is basically a luxury item that people can just choose to not buy anyways; 160,000 will buy you an awful lot of education, so it's not like there's a huge market of people getting them implanted as a replacement to education at those costs).
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 7 2013, 06:04 PM
I have said it before, and I will say it again. ANY security/Military/Govenrment Agent, etc. that advertises their 'ware via activated wireless enabled capabilities deserves to be shot. That is about as dumb as you can get... Anyone in the industry would NEVER have such glaring security holes enabled.
Posted by: SpellBinder Oct 7 2013, 06:23 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 7 2013, 11:04 AM)
I have said it before, and I will say it again. ANY security/Military/Govenrment Agent, etc. that advertises their 'ware via activated wireless enabled capabilities deserves to be shot. That is about as dumb as you can get... Anyone in the industry would NEVER have such glaring security holes enabled.
And yet that still seems to be one of the foundations of this edition of Deckerrun; everything wireless with some kind of [bad] enticement to make you want to run wireless for [mostly] peanuts in benefits.
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 7 2013, 06:29 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 7 2013, 01:04 PM)
I have said it before, and I will say it again. ANY security/Military/Govenrment Agent, etc. that advertises their 'ware via activated wireless enabled capabilities deserves to be shot. That is about as dumb as you can get... Anyone in the industry would NEVER have such glaring security holes enabled.
And a bank would never put any money in an ATM, where just anyone could come by and steal it.
Posted by: DrZaius Oct 7 2013, 07:06 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 7 2013, 12:48 PM)
in SR5, rating 4 skillwires + skilljack represents a 160,000 nuyen value in the person that receives it. 120,000 if you consider that once you've ripped them out, they will undoubtedly count as used cyberware i suppose. that's a pretty significant investment, and i don't care how you look at it, with the level of brutal competition the megas have against each other, even the price for themselves isn't going to be chump change (otherwise someone would offer them at a lower price to take over the market, until they reach roughly the point where the value is correct, since this is basically a luxury item that people can just choose to not buy anyways; 160,000 will buy you an awful lot of education, so it's not like there's a huge market of people getting them implanted as a replacement to education at those costs).
Those are retail prices. If you wanted to fudge it, you could say that megas (in particular, those that are known for software/cyber) could produce / implant their operators at cost- in this case, an out-patient procedure and a 5 nuyen chip.
-DrZ
Posted by: RHat Oct 7 2013, 07:28 PM
Well, let's consider the actual fencing value for a second...
At Rating 4, retail is 160000. Modify by x0.75 because it qualifies now as used. Now apply the x0.25 modifier for the base fencing value, and that's only 30000 for some very hot 'ware. The PR1 Ganger Lieutenant can just BARELY find a buyer, and he damn well best hope he doesn't glitch. Then he gets to default on negotiation against the closest thing he knows to a Fixer - the book's sample Bartender. He gets to put 3 Negotiation dice against the Bartender's 9, meaning that the Bartender gets to reduce the price modifier to x0.15. That leaves 18000 to split between everyone involved in getting this stuff. And in order to get it, they take a big ass risk and then have to try to hock some seriously hot merch. Frankly, I'd apply a further price reduction based on how much heat is on this stuff.
And then, in response, a Corp team comes along and wipes out their gang, because that crap is bad for business and productivi- I mean morale. And always remember two things: The corp that put it in there didn't pay retail, and they mean to recycle the whole thing once they're done with that guard.
Posted by: SpellBinder Oct 7 2013, 07:50 PM
Something that also came to mind. How skilled at removing said wires will any of these gangers be? Certainly wouldn't be like removing a cyberarm where you could rip it off and leave fleshy bits on the chrome.
Posted by: DMK Oct 7 2013, 08:22 PM
Not to mention the time involved. Or how much dead weight dragging around the whole body would be. Not to mention the DocWagon style biomonitor that's telling HRT exactly where the dead employee is. Just not worth it, imho.
Heck, were I GM'ing things I'd probably give a high chance that the 'ware was ruined by whatever killed the guy... *shrug*
Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 7 2013, 09:36 PM
QUOTE (DMK @ Oct 7 2013, 09:22 PM)
Not to mention the time involved. Or how much dead weight dragging around the whole body would be. Not to mention the DocWagon style biomonitor that's telling HRT exactly where the dead employee is. Just not worth it, imho.
Heck, were I GM'ing things I'd probably give a high chance that the 'ware was ruined by whatever killed the guy... *shrug*
Heck, were I GM'ing things I'd probably give a high chance that the 'ware was ruined by whatever killed the guy... *shrug*
Thats why Jesus invemted Flesh to Goop. Or is that not in the new edition?
Posted by: CanRay Oct 7 2013, 10:10 PM
QUOTE (Emil Barr @ Oct 7 2013, 04:36 PM)
Thats why Jesus invemted Flesh to Goop. Or is that not in the new edition?
Flesh-To-Goo was invented by Aztechnology?Actually, that makes a lot of sick, twisted sense!
Posted by: RHat Oct 7 2013, 10:13 PM
QUOTE (Emil Barr @ Oct 7 2013, 03:36 PM)
Thats why Jesus invemted Flesh to Goop. Or is that not in the new edition?
No Turn To Goo yet - and the addition of a mage to do that takes us well beyond the simple, basic, common threat that was being suggested as making this such a bad idea, especially giving that spells are resisted with two Attributes rather than one in SR5, so the roll would become harder to win (demanding a decent Spellcasting+Magic and a reasonable Force).
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 7 2013, 10:20 PM
Yeah, removing skillwires wouldn't be a simple task. It's a complex system of dozens of parts, and if you break anything the wires would be ruined. You'd need a full cybersurgery shop and expertise to do it, even if you didn't care to keep the subject alive.
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 7 2013, 10:20 PM
Double post. Stupid phone.
Posted by: Slithery D Oct 7 2013, 11:03 PM
A reasonable (but not fair) extension of the Not Enough Bullets rule for Suppressive Fire suggests you only need to fire two bullets per 1m wide zone, so if you want to go super crazy let your players suppress a 2m hallway with 4 bullets per Combat Turn.
Posted by: toturi Oct 8 2013, 06:53 AM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 7 2013, 11:30 PM)
I heavily disagree that an M16 converted to FA and Belt Feed would make a better SAW than the SAW... I really liked my M16A2... I LOVED my SAW...
I am not too sure about that. I was an automatic weapons gunner too, except I was trained on the Ultimax instead of the American SAW. And I must say that apart from the ability to put more rounds in the air in a short period of time, I don't really like my SAW as compared to my M-16. Any burst more than 3 rounds almost always saw the rest of the rounds flying off some place else other than the target/s. And if I wanted to suppress, multiple 3 round bursts from my 16 worked better. Maybe if I was using drum mags for my SAW, it would be better, but I really doubt it. In any case, I was issued magazines with same ammo capacity as the M-16's.
Posted by: CanRay Oct 8 2013, 07:03 AM
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 8 2013, 01:53 AM)
In any case, I was issued magazines with same ammo capacity as the M-16's.
Well, there's your problem!
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 8 2013, 02:00 PM
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 8 2013, 01:03 AM)
Well, there's your problem!
Indeed... With the Drum, the SAW is awesome. And if you are good, you can fire 3-5 round bursts with a SAW with as much accuracy as the M16 in Burst (And if you are really good you can fire single rounds with a SAW). But when it comnes to actual suppression, the SAW rocks over the M16 (Duh!
). I liked the M60 as well (but boy does that hog suck on a hump of any distance), but for sheer portability and maximum rounds downrange, I far preferred the SAW.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 8 2013, 07:49 PM
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Oct 7 2013, 02:06 PM)
Those are retail prices. If you wanted to fudge it, you could say that megas (in particular, those that are known for software/cyber) could produce / implant their operators at cost- in this case, an out-patient procedure and a 5 nuyen chip.
-DrZ
-DrZ
so what you're saying is that the corps have artificially put into play a profit margin of 3,200,000 percent to make sure that they don't sell a single one of their stupidly overpriced cyberware which they developed so that they could sell?
hmmm.... not feeling convinced.
for those who seem to think that the gang is going to do the implant removal, i did specify having an organlegger contact. you don't need to find a buyer when you already know someone who buys this sort of thing for a living. if they know any street doc, that street doc probably also has the contacts to get rid of the corpse. yes, they won't get full price for it. but if you're just chipping all your guards, you're basically putting a price on their heads.
consider this is the edition where officially, shadowrunners break into extremely secure research compounds for a few thousand nuyen each. even 18,000 nuyen (if we presume the gang doesn't have *anyone* in it with a halfway decent level of social skills) is a pretty good score in the setting as presented. certainly, it's a heck of a lot easier than shadowrunning, and appears to pay similar amounts (if not more).
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 8 2013, 08:05 PM
Considering that a rating 6 skillwire system (that could run one rating 6 skillsoft) in SR3 would cost about 325,000 nuyen, I don't see the major complaint.
Posted by: Shemhazai Oct 8 2013, 09:00 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 8 2013, 02:49 PM)
yes, they won't get full price for it.
I'm curious what percent of the book value for used 'ware people think the runners would get for fencing something they ripped out of a guard on one of their own runs. Imagine being asked to deal in something so identifiable, and being traceable from both ends -- either from people who have tracked down the runners and forced them to rat out who they sold it to, or from people who have tracked down the 'ware itself and forced the new owner to rat out who they bought it from.
And what about the reaction of a street doc contact when asked to harvest from a a recent casualty. Are you sure she would be okay with it? Would the Johnson or fixer be cool with it if they were to find out?
Posted by: binarywraith Oct 8 2013, 09:37 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 7 2013, 11:11 AM)
This discussion is a disconnect, though, from Reality to Game. In reality, very few people are willing to risk getting dead by operating in a suppressive fire zone. In the game, hoewver, all it takes is the decision to do so (since no one really dies), and a character with a semi-competant design to almost completely ignore the ramifications of the Suppresion zone. Unfortunately, the mechanics do not support the reality. Suppressive fire from fully automatic weapons designed for sustained fire is a devastating thing. Suppressive fire from fully automatic weapons using grenades is truly horrifying.
Having been on a Mk19 range when someone was going full-auto? That shit would be absurdly terrifying to be downrange of. Honestly, I really do think Shadowrun needs a either a better suppression mechanic, or something on the lines of 'attack of opportunity' style rules to make breaking cover in a beaten zone more dangerous.
Edit : Reading up on suppression in SR5, that looks like what they did.
QUOTE
Suppressive fire takes a Complex Action, uses twenty rounds of ammo, and ignores recoil. Though it may appear as a “spray and pray” technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves. A character can suppress a triangular area projecting from the shooting character outward up to a distance of his choosing, up to the maximum range of the weapon, with a width of 10 meters at its end and a height of 2 meters. Make a (Weapon Skill) + Agility [Accuracy] Test, including bonuses for smartlink, laser sight, tracer rounds, and other gamemaster-approved modifiers, and record the hits. The suppressive fire zone lasts until the end of the Combat Turn as long as the firer does not move or commit to any other action. Anyone in the suppressive fire zone or immediately adjacent to it takes a dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the shooter’s hits, unless they are completely unaware of it (a magician using astral projection, for example).
Any character who is in the suppressed area (but not behind cover or prone), or who moves into or out of the area before the end of the suppressive fire, risks catching some flying lead. That character must make a Reaction + Edge Test (+ any dice they may get as a result of choosing to use Full Defense) with a threshold equal to the hits scored by the suppressing attacker. Note that in the test, you use your full Edge rating, regardless of whether you have spent points during the session (though you do not, of course, use burned Edge points). If the test fails, the character is hit, suffering damage equal to the weapon’s base Damage Value modified by any special ammunition being fired. Characters in the suppressed area who remain behind full cover or drop prone are not at risk (though they suffer the normal modifiers for being prone; see Melee Modifiers, p. 187, and Ranged Modifiers, p. 173). Characters may choose to avoid rolling and use their Free Action to go prone and avoid getting hit. If a character does not have a Free Action remaining she may use the Hit the Dirt Interrupt Action and go prone instead of getting hit. Any character who stands up or moves again before the suppressive fire stops must make a test to see if she is hit.
Any character who is in the suppressed area (but not behind cover or prone), or who moves into or out of the area before the end of the suppressive fire, risks catching some flying lead. That character must make a Reaction + Edge Test (+ any dice they may get as a result of choosing to use Full Defense) with a threshold equal to the hits scored by the suppressing attacker. Note that in the test, you use your full Edge rating, regardless of whether you have spent points during the session (though you do not, of course, use burned Edge points). If the test fails, the character is hit, suffering damage equal to the weapon’s base Damage Value modified by any special ammunition being fired. Characters in the suppressed area who remain behind full cover or drop prone are not at risk (though they suffer the normal modifiers for being prone; see Melee Modifiers, p. 187, and Ranged Modifiers, p. 173). Characters may choose to avoid rolling and use their Free Action to go prone and avoid getting hit. If a character does not have a Free Action remaining she may use the Hit the Dirt Interrupt Action and go prone instead of getting hit. Any character who stands up or moves again before the suppressive fire stops must make a test to see if she is hit.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 8 2013, 10:11 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 8 2013, 05:00 PM)
I'm curious what percent of the book value for used 'ware people think the runners would get for fencing something they ripped out of a guard on one of their own runs. Imagine being asked to deal in something so identifiable, and being traceable from both ends -- either from people who have tracked down the runners and forced them to rat out who they sold it to, or from people who have tracked down the 'ware itself and forced the new owner to rat out who they bought it from.
And what about the reaction of a street doc contact when asked to harvest from a a recent casualty. Are you sure she would be okay with it? Would the Johnson or fixer be cool with it if they were to find out?
And what about the reaction of a street doc contact when asked to harvest from a a recent casualty. Are you sure she would be okay with it? Would the Johnson or fixer be cool with it if they were to find out?
i'm not entirely certain what setting you think you are playing, but tamanous is known for having connections that extend into legitimate hospitals, never mind the street doc who probably lost his license for some reason or another (and is no longer legally a doctor) and cannot even *access* regular channels for organs and such that (s)he needs.
the organization has a very long reach that extends to almost any medical facility, legitimate or otherwise, that you care to name. and they're only one organization that does this sort of thing.
organ-legging is a known phenomenon in shadowrun. and tamanous is actually an organization that people who fairly often will find themselves needing to make a body disappear (say, into the mouths of some ghouls, after all the valuable parts have been taken out by a doctor) can benefit from, and it is *extremely* plausible, even likely, that any given character you create has a contact that is in some way attached to the organization (although they may or may not have told you about it).
if your gang has ever gone in to a shadow clinic to buy a set of handrazors, odds are good that your gang knows someone with connections to tamanous.
and while i don't have a problem (per se) with skillwires costing a lot, i *do* have a problem with people claiming that they cost a small fortune and yet are somehow *also* something that you could put into random people like it was a datajack or something.
you get to have it one way or the other; it's either expensive and rare (ie most editions), or cheap and common (ie 4th edition). expensive and common makes absolutely no sense for the setting. it would be like arguing that corporations are using the GMC banshee to ship people desperate for any kind of work from the barrens instead of an old, beat-up bus. sure, they could, but it's just not reasonable to expect the corporations to choose an expensive and complicated solution over a cheap and simple one, whether that be for transporting untrained labour or giving their workforce the skills needed to do their job.
Posted by: binarywraith Oct 9 2013, 02:40 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 8 2013, 04:11 PM)
you get to have it one way or the other; it's either expensive and rare (ie most editions), or cheap and common (ie 4th edition). expensive and common makes absolutely no sense for the setting. it would be like arguing that corporations are using the GMC banshee to ship people desperate for any kind of work from the barrens instead of an old, beat-up bus. sure, they could, but it's just not reasonable to expect the corporations to choose an expensive and complicated solution over a cheap and simple one, whether that be for transporting untrained labour or giving their workforce the skills needed to do their job.
I think it's just a manifestation of one of the ongoing problems of 5e. Game mechanics and worldbuilding in this edition have very little to do with each other.
Posted by: RHat Oct 9 2013, 03:20 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 8 2013, 04:11 PM)
you get to have it one way or the other; it's either expensive and rare (ie most editions), or cheap and common (ie 4th edition). expensive and common makes absolutely no sense for the setting.
Actually, "was cheap, became common, got expensive" works. Just because it's now much more expensive to put the wires in doesn't mean that the existing wired workforce suddenly vanishes.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 9 2013, 04:02 AM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 9 2013, 11:20 AM)
Actually, "was cheap, became common, got expensive" works. Just because it's now much more expensive to put the wires in doesn't mean that the existing wired workforce suddenly vanishes.
C'mon. That's exactly what's happened with every single piece of equipment - they vanished. The workforce with cheap wires DID vanish, because the world was retconned. It's why noone has "old school" smartguns/smartlinks anymore.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 9 2013, 06:17 AM
edit: somehow missed the quote. this was in response to:
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 8 2013, 10:20 PM)
Actually, "was cheap, became common, got expensive" works. Just because it's now much more expensive to put the wires in doesn't mean that the existing wired workforce suddenly vanishes.
as phlapjack said, it pretty much did. 5th edition only makes *any* sense at all if you pretend like the world didn't suddenly and spontaneously change completely to be the way it is now.
it doesn't make any sense at all if the smartgun from the 2050s made you better at using with your gun without wireless, but the new ones need wireless to do the same, unless you presume that the old smartguns *never existed*, for example. it doesn't make sense that in the 2050s you could ground spells through a focus when you're on the astral, but now that they've broken all sorts of other barriers in magic they've suddenly all completely forgotten how to do that; that only makes sense if grounding also never existed.
and so on, and so forth. we pretty much have to presume that in most cases, 5th edition is pretending like certain things never happened. if there was still a huge stockpile of dirt cheap skillwires in the world, then rating 1 skillwires (plus the skilljack you need if you want to use them) would not cost more than rating 5 skillwires used to cost. and you also wouldn't need a skilljack, because SR4 skillwires had done away with that.
Posted by: Shemhazai Oct 9 2013, 09:48 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 8 2013, 05:11 PM)
i'm not entirely certain what setting you think you are playing, but tamanous is known for having connections that extend into legitimate hospitals, never mind the street doc who probably lost his license for some reason or another (and is no longer legally a doctor) and cannot even *access* regular channels for organs and such that (s)he needs.
the organization has a very long reach that extends to almost any medical facility, legitimate or otherwise, that you care to name. and they're only one organization that does this sort of thing.
organ-legging is a known phenomenon in shadowrun. and tamanous is actually an organization that people who fairly often will find themselves needing to make a body disappear (say, into the mouths of some ghouls, after all the valuable parts have been taken out by a doctor) can benefit from, and it is *extremely* plausible, even likely, that any given character you create has a contact that is in some way attached to the organization (although they may or may not have told you about it).
if your gang has ever gone in to a shadow clinic to buy a set of handrazors, odds are good that your gang knows someone with connections to tamanous.
the organization has a very long reach that extends to almost any medical facility, legitimate or otherwise, that you care to name. and they're only one organization that does this sort of thing.
organ-legging is a known phenomenon in shadowrun. and tamanous is actually an organization that people who fairly often will find themselves needing to make a body disappear (say, into the mouths of some ghouls, after all the valuable parts have been taken out by a doctor) can benefit from, and it is *extremely* plausible, even likely, that any given character you create has a contact that is in some way attached to the organization (although they may or may not have told you about it).
if your gang has ever gone in to a shadow clinic to buy a set of handrazors, odds are good that your gang knows someone with connections to tamanous.
I wouldn't make these assumptions about a character's contacts, and I don't consider all the people a character has ever done business with to be contacts. I completely agree that security staff will be trained rather than chipped. I disagree that runners would be wise to kill people while on a run to harvest the bodies.
Posted by: DWC Oct 9 2013, 02:40 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 7 2013, 10:30 AM)
I heavily disagree that an M16 converted to FA and Belt Feed would make a better SAW than the SAW... I really liked my M16A2... I LOVED my SAW...
Everyone I've met who trusted their life to a SAW loved them. FN made a great gun. But that's not the point. The point is that the game mechanics mean a belt fed assault rifle is better for everything an LMG does than an LMG is.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 9 2013, 02:54 PM
QUOTE (DWC @ Oct 9 2013, 07:40 AM)
Everyone I've met who trusted their life to a SAW loved them. FN made a great gun. But that's not the point. The point is that the game mechanics mean a belt fed assault rifle is better for everything an LMG does than an LMG is.
Which is the problem that we are discussing. Epic fail on the developers side of things, to say the least.
Posted by: RHat Oct 9 2013, 05:22 PM
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 8 2013, 10:02 PM)
C'mon. That's exactly what's happened with every single piece of equipment - they vanished. The workforce with cheap wires DID vanish, because the world was retconned. It's why noone has "old school" smartguns/smartlinks anymore.
Not a valid comparison. The mechanical function of smartlinks was retconned, pure and simple. Wires, on the other hand, are running into the issues caused by the nanotech disaster - the workforce with cheap wires is still there, but the methodologies that allowed for cheap construction and implantation of those wires is no longer viable.
Skillwires are part of an in-setting change, smartlinks are not.
Posted by: RHat Oct 9 2013, 05:27 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 9 2013, 12:17 AM)
edit: somehow missed the quote. this was in response to:
as phlapjack said, it pretty much did. 5th edition only makes *any* sense at all if you pretend like the world didn't suddenly and spontaneously change completely to be the way it is now.
it doesn't make any sense at all if the smartgun from the 2050s made you better at using with your gun without wireless, but the new ones need wireless to do the same, unless you presume that the old smartguns *never existed*, for example. it doesn't make sense that in the 2050s you could ground spells through a focus when you're on the astral, but now that they've broken all sorts of other barriers in magic they've suddenly all completely forgotten how to do that; that only makes sense if grounding also never existed.
and so on, and so forth. we pretty much have to presume that in most cases, 5th edition is pretending like certain things never happened. if there was still a huge stockpile of dirt cheap skillwires in the world, then rating 1 skillwires (plus the skilljack you need if you want to use them) would not cost more than rating 5 skillwires used to cost. and you also wouldn't need a skilljack, because SR4 skillwires had done away with that.
as phlapjack said, it pretty much did. 5th edition only makes *any* sense at all if you pretend like the world didn't suddenly and spontaneously change completely to be the way it is now.
it doesn't make any sense at all if the smartgun from the 2050s made you better at using with your gun without wireless, but the new ones need wireless to do the same, unless you presume that the old smartguns *never existed*, for example. it doesn't make sense that in the 2050s you could ground spells through a focus when you're on the astral, but now that they've broken all sorts of other barriers in magic they've suddenly all completely forgotten how to do that; that only makes sense if grounding also never existed.
and so on, and so forth. we pretty much have to presume that in most cases, 5th edition is pretending like certain things never happened. if there was still a huge stockpile of dirt cheap skillwires in the world, then rating 1 skillwires (plus the skilljack you need if you want to use them) would not cost more than rating 5 skillwires used to cost. and you also wouldn't need a skilljack, because SR4 skillwires had done away with that.
The logic here is not sound - just because one mechanical change represents a retcon does not mean all mechanical changes do. Skillwires can be easily explained by the nanopocalypse - they are no longer able to implant the dirt cheap wires, regardless of how many they have, because nanotech is critical to the implantation of those models.
Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 9 2013, 05:42 PM
If the original purpose of the smartgun was retconned so that it was meant to help people who already had excellent, then was a similar retcon made for lasersights? If I recall, you only get a DP modifier from those in wireless mode as well
Posted by: Remnar Oct 9 2013, 05:44 PM
I miss my implanted induction pads for my Smartguns... especially when my character has cyberarms.
Posted by: RHat Oct 9 2013, 05:45 PM
QUOTE (Emil Barr @ Oct 9 2013, 11:42 AM)
If the original purpose of the smartgun was retconned so that it was meant to help people who already had excellent, then was a similar retcon made for lasersights? If I recall, you only get a DP modifier from those in wireless mode as well
Seems like - maybe the reasoning is that it can't be of much help if you can't keep the weapon on a single point anyways.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 10 2013, 12:52 AM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 10 2013, 01:22 AM)
Not a valid comparison. The mechanical function of smartlinks was retconned, pure and simple. Wires, on the other hand, are running into the issues caused by the nanotech disaster - the workforce with cheap wires is still there, but the methodologies that allowed for cheap construction and implantation of those wires is no longer viable.
Skillwires are part of an in-setting change, smartlinks are not.
Skillwires are part of an in-setting change, smartlinks are not.
It's totally valid. You expect to be able to say most pieces of gear aren't around because of a retcon, but OH WAIT this one OTHER piece of gear, nah, it wasn't retconned? Doesn't work. Either the world as a whole was retconned, or it wasn't.
You can't just make stuff up and blame everything on the nanotech disaster to try to prove your point.
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 10 2013, 01:56 AM
Smartlinks are generally better than they were in SR4, since a +2 dice bonus is harder to come by. Of course it's still no SR3 Smartlink, which for a TN 6 (modified to TN 4 by the smartlink) shot had the roughly equivalent outcome of tripling your dice pool.
Posted by: RHat Oct 10 2013, 02:31 AM
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 9 2013, 06:52 PM)
It's totally valid. You expect to be able to say most pieces of gear aren't around because of a retcon, but OH WAIT this one OTHER piece of gear, nah, it wasn't retconned? Doesn't work. Either the world as a whole was retconned, or it wasn't.
You can't just make stuff up and blame everything on the nanotech disaster to try to prove your point.
You can't just make stuff up and blame everything on the nanotech disaster to try to prove your point.
No., it is not the case that either all changes are retcons or no changes are retcons. There's a shit-tonne of middle ground. Skillwires are in that middle ground, as is most gear. The retconned gear is only a few examples - specifically things where their old dice pool bonus function is now new and shiny funtionality that comes with the new Matrix, and their new Limit bonus is now the function they've always had. That's pretty much the ONLY gear retcon. Things like price changes are trivial to explain in-universe between the massive economic issues and nanogeddon.
And as an aside, coming up with new terms whenever I mention the nanotech thing is fun. Wonder how long I can keep it up.
Posted by: toturi Oct 10 2013, 02:38 AM
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 10 2013, 08:52 AM)
It's totally valid. You expect to be able to say most pieces of gear aren't around because of a retcon, but OH WAIT this one OTHER piece of gear, nah, it wasn't retconned? Doesn't work. Either the world as a whole was retconned, or it wasn't.
You can't just make stuff up and blame everything on the nanotech disaster to try to prove your point.
You can't just make stuff up and blame everything on the nanotech disaster to try to prove your point.
Yes, most pieces of gear. Not all pieces of gear.
Even if we assume that the world as a whole has to be retconned, you can still say that that piece of gear that "wasn't retconned" was retconned but it now functions similarly to the pre-retconned version.
Posted by: kzt Oct 10 2013, 04:18 AM
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 9 2013, 06:56 PM)
Smartlinks are generally better than they were in SR4, since a +2 dice bonus is harder to come by. Of course it's still no SR3 Smartlink, which for a TN 6 (modified to TN 4 by the smartlink) shot had the roughly equivalent outcome of tripling your dice pool.
That's because SR Dev's are required to have either failed or never taken a statistics course.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 10 2013, 04:41 AM
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 9 2013, 09:56 PM)
Smartlinks are generally better than they were in SR4, since a +2 dice bonus is harder to come by. Of course it's still no SR3 Smartlink, which for a TN 6 (modified to TN 4 by the smartlink) shot had the roughly equivalent outcome of tripling your dice pool.
smartlinks in SR5 are only better (comparatively) if you actually have them wireless, which has a bunch of potential drawbacks. including losing the full use of your smartlink. and, depending on what else is attached to the device that your smartlink is on, your ability to see.
and no, it's pretty obvious that skillwires have indeed been retconned. the 4th edition version needed no skilljack. all you needed to run a knowsoft was a DNI from any source. not so in 5th. we can safely say that the devs looked at 4th edition skillwires and decided that no, they don't work like that anymore.
furthermore, it is *extremely* obvious that skillwires got retconned, because we know *exactly* what old skillwires are like; exactly like the current ones, only not wireless-enabled. not sort of like the current ones, but needing different pieces of equipment to function, and an order of magnitude cheaper. SR4 has pretty clearly had it's augmentation costs errated out of existence.
edit: oh, and by definition, if someone is willing to do business with you, well... here's the description of a loyalty 1 contact:
"Just Biz. The relationship is purely mercenary, based solely on economics. The
people involved may not even like each other, and they won’t offer any sort of
preferential treatment."
so as a matter of fact, yes, if the guy who installed your cyberware is willing to install more cyberware into you in exchange for money, then that guy is a contact.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Oct 10 2013, 05:13 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 9 2013, 11:41 PM)
so as a matter of fact, yes, if the guy who installed your cyberware is willing to install more cyberware into you in exchange for money, then that guy is a contact.
Thats why they hand out level 1 contacts like candy in missions adventures.
Posted by: RHat Oct 10 2013, 05:29 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 9 2013, 10:41 PM)
and no, it's pretty obvious that skillwires have indeed been retconned. the 4th edition version needed no skilljack. all you needed to run a knowsoft was a DNI from any source. not so in 5th. we can safely say that the devs looked at 4th edition skillwires and decided that no, they don't work like that anymore.
furthermore, it is *extremely* obvious that skillwires got retconned, because we know *exactly* what old skillwires are like; exactly like the current ones, only not wireless-enabled. not sort of like the current ones, but needing different pieces of equipment to function, and an order of magnitude cheaper. SR4 has pretty clearly had it's augmentation costs errated out of existence.
furthermore, it is *extremely* obvious that skillwires got retconned, because we know *exactly* what old skillwires are like; exactly like the current ones, only not wireless-enabled. not sort of like the current ones, but needing different pieces of equipment to function, and an order of magnitude cheaper. SR4 has pretty clearly had it's augmentation costs errated out of existence.
... You're gonna need to back that up. At present, SR5's skillwire+skilljack allows the same skillsofts as SR4's skillwires, making it just seem like the ones they can successfully implant in SR5 need the extra hardware to get it running properly, with the wireless version being strictly superior to SR4's (more running skillsofts). Or do you think they should be publishing the versions that put you at risk for the whole Sybil thing, also known as the versions that any runner would have had ripped out and replaced ASAP?
Posted by: Jaid Oct 10 2013, 05:46 AM
if there is any significant danger that a person with the old skillwires is going to go haywire and destroy everything, do you think they're still going to be around in anyone's workplace? really? i mean, who's going to pay to have the ticking time bomb in their factory? who the hell is going to be *insane* enough to hand them a heavy machine gun and a skillsoft on how to use heavy weapons ranging from machine guns to grenade launchers to rocket launchers to assault cannons?
basically, if it leaves you particularly susceptible to something significantly bad, then they would be rare. because most of them would have been killed by angry mobs, by now.
turns out, having an exceptionally high chance of suddenly becoming a danger to everyone with no warning: does not increase your life expectancy.
Posted by: RHat Oct 10 2013, 06:10 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 9 2013, 11:46 PM)
if there is any significant danger that a person with the old skillwires is going to go haywire and destroy everything, do you think they're still going to be around in anyone's workplace? really? i mean, who's going to pay to have the ticking time bomb in their factory? who the hell is going to be *insane* enough to hand them a heavy machine gun and a skillsoft on how to use heavy weapons ranging from machine guns to grenade launchers to rocket launchers to assault cannons?
basically, if it leaves you particularly susceptible to something significantly bad, then they would be rare. because most of them would have been killed by angry mobs, by now.
turns out, having an exceptionally high chance of suddenly becoming a danger to everyone with no warning: does not increase your life expectancy.
basically, if it leaves you particularly susceptible to something significantly bad, then they would be rare. because most of them would have been killed by angry mobs, by now.
turns out, having an exceptionally high chance of suddenly becoming a danger to everyone with no warning: does not increase your life expectancy.
That's not the presentation of pretty much any case of Sybil - it's far, far, far more subtle than that. And while the shadows know about it and the upper echelons know about it, so far as I know that's it, so no angry mobs. And it's somewhat targeted from what I hear (still need to read Splintered States), so Joe Wageslave isn't at as much risk as Joe Shadowrunner.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 10 2013, 06:44 AM
regardless, this still makes the ridiculous assumptions that:
a) those skillwires are somehow not viewed as being even remotely close to the same value for no apparent reason.
b) those skillwires didn't actually get retconned from having wildly different prices and hardware needs.
c) those skillwires don't already have actual rules stating they cost runners the same amount to obtain in the core book.
yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.
the logical conclusion is that, just like everything else that went through significant changes in SR5 without getting any specific mentions of the transition occuring, it was always like that. why does nobody want to know why skillwires went up to 20 times their old price? because they didn't. as far as SR5 is concerned, they were never 2,000 nuyen per rating point.
that's the simple and logical explanation. it's ridiculous to presume that we're supposed to somehow infer some convoluted chain of "logic" that explains the change, and yet the only even remote indication of this logic chain we're supposed to follow in the book is a brief mention that something related to nanotechnology happened a while ago in the description of an assault rifle.
Posted by: Shemhazai Oct 10 2013, 07:00 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 9 2013, 11:41 PM)
edit: oh, and by definition, if someone is willing to do business with you, well... here's the description of a loyalty 1 contact:
"Just Biz. The relationship is purely mercenary, based solely on economics. The
people involved may not even like each other, and they won’t offer any sort of
preferential treatment."
so as a matter of fact, yes, if the guy who installed your cyberware is willing to install more cyberware into you in exchange for money, then that guy is a contact.
"Just Biz. The relationship is purely mercenary, based solely on economics. The
people involved may not even like each other, and they won’t offer any sort of
preferential treatment."
so as a matter of fact, yes, if the guy who installed your cyberware is willing to install more cyberware into you in exchange for money, then that guy is a contact.
I don't believe that having done business in the past is sufficient. Otherwise every character would have scores of contacts collected throughout their lives.
Posted by: RHat Oct 10 2013, 07:01 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 10 2013, 12:44 AM)
regardless, this still makes the ridiculous assumptions that:
a) those skillwires are somehow not viewed as being even remotely close to the same value for no apparent reason.
b) those skillwires didn't actually get retconned from having wildly different prices and hardware needs.
c) those skillwires don't already have actual rules stating they cost runners the same amount to obtain in the core book.
yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.
the logical conclusion is that, just like everything else that went through significant changes in SR5 without getting any specific mentions of the transition occuring, it was always like that. why does nobody want to know why skillwires went up to 20 times their old price? because they didn't. as far as SR5 is concerned, they were never 2,000 nuyen per rating point.
that's the simple and logical explanation. it's ridiculous to presume that we're supposed to somehow infer some convoluted chain of "logic" that explains the change, and yet the only even remote indication of this logic chain we're supposed to follow in the book is a brief mention that something related to nanotechnology happened a while ago in the description of an assault rifle.
a) those skillwires are somehow not viewed as being even remotely close to the same value for no apparent reason.
b) those skillwires didn't actually get retconned from having wildly different prices and hardware needs.
c) those skillwires don't already have actual rules stating they cost runners the same amount to obtain in the core book.
yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.
the logical conclusion is that, just like everything else that went through significant changes in SR5 without getting any specific mentions of the transition occuring, it was always like that. why does nobody want to know why skillwires went up to 20 times their old price? because they didn't. as far as SR5 is concerned, they were never 2,000 nuyen per rating point.
that's the simple and logical explanation. it's ridiculous to presume that we're supposed to somehow infer some convoluted chain of "logic" that explains the change, and yet the only even remote indication of this logic chain we're supposed to follow in the book is a brief mention that something related to nanotechnology happened a while ago in the description of an assault rifle.
Skillwires aren't the only thing that became a hell of a lot more expensive; the combination of nagnarok and the massive economic troubles are the explanation offered by (as I recall) Bull. Old-style skillwires are not available in the book, the nanend-times accounts for the hardware changes...
It is not logical to say "there is no explanation" when explanations are readily available.
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 10 2013, 07:05 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 10 2013, 02:44 AM)
yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.
Or you could ignore the fact that SR4 made skillwires an order of magnitude cheaper for no apparent reason.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 10 2013, 08:26 AM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 10 2013, 10:31 AM)
No., it is not the case that either all changes are retcons or no changes are retcons. There's a shit-tonne of middle ground. Skillwires are in that middle ground, as is most gear. The retconned gear is only a few examples - specifically things where their old dice pool bonus function is now new and shiny funtionality that comes with the new Matrix, and their new Limit bonus is now the function they've always had. That's pretty much the ONLY gear retcon. Things like price changes are trivial to explain in-universe between the massive economic issues and nanogeddon.
That's your position, which I think isn't at all supported by the book/fluff/common sense. You posit that "old-versions" (SR4) of gear exists, yet any time it's brought up about any piece of gear, the answer is always "never existed in this timeline" (SR5). Saying "nano!" for any explanation you want is not a reasonable explanation but rather a cop-out.QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 10 2013, 10:38 AM)
Even if we assume that the world as a whole has to be retconned, you can still say that that piece of gear that "wasn't retconned" was retconned but it now functions similarly to the pre-retconned version.
That makes...no sense. For this discussion anyway.QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 10 2013, 03:05 PM)
Or you could ignore the fact that SR4 made skillwires an order of magnitude cheaper for no apparent reason.
You could, but then you'd still be stuck with the dilemma that skillwires are really, really expensive, and it doesn't make sense that the fluff says corps like to install skillwires rather than train their workers.QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 10 2013, 10:31 AM)
And as an aside, coming up with new terms whenever I mention the nanotech thing is fun. Wonder how long I can keep it up.
- nanogeddon
- nanend-times
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 10 2013, 02:05 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 10 2013, 12:00 AM)
I don't believe that having done business in the past is sufficient. Otherwise every character would have scores of contacts collected throughout their lives.
You don't? I (personally) have business cards (and therefore contacts) that number in the thousands. ALL of them would be considered as Contacts in Shadowrun (and probably all of them would be Loyalty 1 - Just Business). Yes, Every Shadowrunner should eventually have a list of Contacts that is pretty impressive. Why would that be a problem?
Posted by: Sendaz Oct 10 2013, 02:09 PM
You also have to consider that a lot of those contacts shift over time. Some retire, some die etc....
Trying to constantly juggle all of that in the game would be a lot of tracking, but when you need to find that just right piece of equipment, it's good to know people....
But YMMV, some runners stick to just one area/region and do not really associate outside their immediate comfort zone, relying on the fixer to do the middlemanning.
Posted by: Sendaz Oct 10 2013, 02:17 PM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 9 2013, 09:31 PM)
And as an aside, coming up with new terms whenever I mention the nanotech thing is fun. Wonder how long I can keep it up.
Nanomanagement: Think Micromanagement but with even more invasiveness by your boss thanks to technology.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 10 2013, 02:33 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Oct 10 2013, 07:09 AM)
You also have to consider that a lot of those contacts shift over time. Some retire, some die etc....
Trying to constantly juggle all of that in the game would be a lot of tracking, but when you need to find that just right piece of equipment, it's good to know people....
But YMMV, some runners stick to just one area/region and do not really associate outside their immediate comfort zone, relying on the fixer to do the middlemanning.
Trying to constantly juggle all of that in the game would be a lot of tracking, but when you need to find that just right piece of equipment, it's good to know people....
But YMMV, some runners stick to just one area/region and do not really associate outside their immediate comfort zone, relying on the fixer to do the middlemanning.
Indeed... In game, my characters do tend to spend time juggling their contacts... As you say... they come and they go.
Posted by: Sendaz Oct 10 2013, 04:01 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 10 2013, 10:33 AM)
Indeed... In game, my characters do tend to spend time juggling their contacts... As you say... they come and they go.
Indeed, one of GMs I knew would let players run a some of the other player's Contact NPCs, not all of them and never their own.
Each Contact had their own Card which had cues, tips and guidelines of what they would/wouldn't do (so no the contact doesn't just hand out stuff for free) and so long as you stayed within those limits you got to play it up a bit and took some of the burden off the GM, who still had final say on any NPC action and could take back a Card if necessary/abused, and added some fun.
Posted by: Slithery D Oct 10 2013, 04:09 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 10 2013, 03:00 AM)
I don't believe that having done business in the past is sufficient. Otherwise every character would have scores of contacts collected throughout their lives.
A level 1 contact vs. not a contact is the difference between recognizing the number on your caller ID (but not particularly caring) vs. a walk in for new business. For the level 1 contact you'll let him use your private line to leave a message, and you'll get back to him if/when convenient, but he gets the same treatment as the guy off the street. The guy who isn't a contact just has to try a little harder to make the connection.
Posted by: RHat Oct 10 2013, 09:58 PM
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 10 2013, 02:26 AM)
That's your position, which I think isn't at all supported by the book/fluff/common sense. You posit that "old-versions" (SR4) of gear exists, yet any time it's brought up about any piece of gear, the answer is always "never existed in this timeline" (SR5). Saying "nano!" for any explanation you want is not a reasonable explanation but rather a cop-out.
That and the ensuing economic problems are the explanation that has been offered. And you can't say that the given answer is always "never existed" when we're discussing a piece of gear where this isn't the case. Skillwires have a different and superior explanation for their changes, as do the general changes to 'ware pricing (in that we've been told that those two factors are what have made all these costs go up). Where are SR4's skillwires now? Sitting useless in a warehouse until they can actually be implanted again.
Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 10 2013, 11:23 PM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 10 2013, 10:58 PM)
That and the ensuing economic problems are the explanation that has been offered. And you can't say that the given answer is always "never existed" when we're discussing a piece of gear where this isn't the case. Skillwires have a different and superior explanation for their changes, as do the general changes to 'ware pricing (in that we've been told that those two factors are what have made all these costs go up). Where are SR4's skillwires now? Sitting useless in a warehouse until they can actually be implanted again.
That mean I can plan a run and steal them all?
Shouldnt I be able to buy retro ware used?
Posted by: RHat Oct 10 2013, 11:26 PM
QUOTE (Emil Barr @ Oct 10 2013, 05:23 PM)
That mean I can plan a run and steal them all?
Shouldnt I be able to buy retro ware used?
Shouldnt I be able to buy retro ware used?
Two things:
1) They cannot implant it at present. So sure, still it all - but at the moment it is worthless.
2) If you could get it implanted, you'd be exposing yourself to the Sybil virus; nobody wants to do that.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Oct 11 2013, 05:15 AM
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 10 2013, 04:26 AM)
You could, but then you'd still be stuck with the dilemma that skillwires are really, really expensive, and it doesn't make sense that the fluff says corps like to install skillwires rather than train their workers.
Training people is ridiculously expensive, skill wires are still a steal on the front. 120,000 and you can make a worker a professional in a wide range of fields, it would cost that much or more to train him normally in just one field. While for corps this would be true anyway, but the main mechanical problem with skillwires is the programs cost too much on top of a high cost for implantation. Sure go ahead make wires 6 cost 120,000 hell double that. Just make the programs dirt cheap. Software is too easily copied/stolen making the cost prohibitive makes very little world sense and with the high cost of the ware I don't think makes much game mechanic sense.
Posted by: Sendaz Oct 11 2013, 07:03 AM
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 11 2013, 12:15 AM)
Training people is ridiculously expensive, skill wires are still a steal on the front. 120,000 and you can make a worker a professional in a wide range of fields, it would cost that much or more to train him normally in just one field. While for corps this would be true anyway, but the main mechanical problem with skillwires is the programs cost too much on top of a high cost for implantation. Sure go ahead make wires 6 cost 120,000 hell double that. Just make the programs dirt cheap. Software is too easily copied/stolen making the cost prohibitive makes very little world sense and with the high cost of the ware I don't think makes much game mechanic sense.
It is a good point. Once you have those skillwires in you can then adapt the subject to any training you like.
The cost of the programs is absurdly high, especially when you figure they are probably just burning multi-copies for the download and using that.
Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.
So is there a ShadowSkillNet out there somewhere offering black market skill downloads for rapid use. Because that could be an interesting find, even if you always run the risk of a infected download.
If the corps are able to turn janitors into combat monkeys in seconds, why shouldn't the decker/face/other traditional low to mid lvl combat type get the same option when needed?
What's good for the cybergoose is good for the cybergander.
Wireless Bonus: access to almost any active skill anytime.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Oct 11 2013, 07:42 AM
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 11 2013, 01:15 PM)
Training people is ridiculously expensive, skill wires are still a steal on the front. 120,000 and you can make a worker a professional in a wide range of fields, it would cost that much or more to train him normally in just one field. While for corps this would be true anyway, but the main mechanical problem with skillwires is the programs cost too much on top of a high cost for implantation. Sure go ahead make wires 6 cost 120,000 hell double that. Just make the programs dirt cheap. Software is too easily copied/stolen making the cost prohibitive makes very little world sense and with the high cost of the ware I don't think makes much game mechanic sense.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Oct 11 2013, 03:03 PM)
Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.
Yeah, this is a good point. I think everyone finds that scene in The Matrix awesome, where Trinity needs to be able to fly a chopper, and Tank uploads the skill to her in seconds. It would be cool to have this available to PCs and "important" NPCs, but probably not mooks (unless they work for a major corp and are secretly part of some plan, as you posted above).
On the gripping hand, maybe the skilled workers vs. skillwired workers point is moot, as for most situations being discussed a corp would probably have invested in a drone instead.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Oct 11 2013, 05:08 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Oct 11 2013, 03:03 AM)
It is a good point. Once you have those skillwires in you can then adapt the subject to any training you like.
The cost of the programs is absurdly high, especially when you figure they are probably just burning multi-copies for the download and using that.
Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.
So is there a ShadowSkillNet out there somewhere offering black market skill downloads for rapid use. Because that could be an interesting find, even if you always run the risk of a infected download.
If the corps are able to turn janitors into combat monkeys in seconds, why shouldn't the decker/face/other traditional low to mid lvl combat type get the same option when needed?
What's good for the cybergoose is good for the cybergander.
Wireless Bonus: access to almost any active skill anytime.
The cost of the programs is absurdly high, especially when you figure they are probably just burning multi-copies for the download and using that.
Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.
So is there a ShadowSkillNet out there somewhere offering black market skill downloads for rapid use. Because that could be an interesting find, even if you always run the risk of a infected download.
If the corps are able to turn janitors into combat monkeys in seconds, why shouldn't the decker/face/other traditional low to mid lvl combat type get the same option when needed?
What's good for the cybergoose is good for the cybergander.
Wireless Bonus: access to almost any active skill anytime.
While training is expensive and skillwires are cheap in comparison, janitors seem a bit of a stretch to me. They are pretty much non-skilled employees. Its a tough job but not because vacuuming is a complex skill. Are there tricks of the trade, sure. Just not enough of them to justify skillwires IMO.
phlapjack77 has a good point though, a lot of jobs would be given to drones with an autosoft. If it does not require any real decision making process its probably done by a drone. Besides a freaking robot stole my job and now I'm sinless is awesome dystopia.
Posted by: RHat Oct 11 2013, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 11 2013, 10:08 AM)
While training is expensive and skillwires are cheap in comparison, janitors seem a bit of a stretch to me. They are pretty much non-skilled employees. Its a tough job but not because vacuuming is a complex skill. Are there tricks of the trade, sure. Just not enough of them to justify skillwires IMO.
Unless you're Horizon, in which case that janitor might have been helping out in accounting the week before, manufacturing the week before that, and so on.
Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 11 2013, 05:58 PM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 11 2013, 05:20 PM)
Unless you're Horizon, in which case that janitor might have been helping out in accounting the week before, manufacturing the week before that, and so on.
If it werent for the fact you dont actually have those skills and theyre only in you to abued you for profit, skillwires would be a marxist dream come true!
Posted by: Remnar Oct 11 2013, 06:09 PM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 11 2013, 08:20 AM)
Unless you're Horizon, in which case that janitor might have been helping out in accounting the week before, manufacturing the week before that, and so on.
That's how I'd see them making sense. Its not the training of ONE skill that makes them worthwhile, but you can have an employee who can do ANY skilled job you need at the drop of a dime. That's pretty darned handy and makes your workforce extremely adapatable.
Sec Guards, on the other had, make less sense. You'll probably want them to be doing that most of the time and you can probably train them to shoot easier/cheaper. Then again, some of the stories I've heard from Police friends ... some people are just untrainable with firearms.
Posted by: RHat Oct 11 2013, 06:12 PM
QUOTE (Remnar @ Oct 11 2013, 11:09 AM)
That's how I'd see them making sense. Its not the training of ONE skill that makes them worthwhile, but you can have an employee who can do ANY skilled job you need at the drop of a dime. That's pretty darned handy and makes your workforce extremely adapatable.
Sec Guards, on the other had, make less sense. You'll probably want them to be doing that most of the time and you can probably train them to shoot easier/cheaper. Then again, some of the stories I've heard from Police friends ... some people are just untrainable with firearms.
Sec Guards, on the other had, make less sense. You'll probably want them to be doing that most of the time and you can probably train them to shoot easier/cheaper. Then again, some of the stories I've heard from Police friends ... some people are just untrainable with firearms.
Training people to shoot seems like the easy part - training people to know when to shoot, when not to shoot, etc. and to actually execute that correctly in hgh-stress situations? Noooooot so much.
Also, I wouldn't say ANY job - I'd have a hard time figuring a wired programming team, for example.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 11 2013, 06:17 PM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 11 2013, 11:12 AM)
Also, I wouldn't say ANY job - I'd have a hard time figuring a wired programming team, for example.
That is what the skillsofts are for, though. So you don't have to...
Posted by: RHat Oct 11 2013, 06:41 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 11 2013, 11:17 AM)
That is what the skillsofts are for, though. So you don't have to...
There are some jobs where recorded thoughts and actions aren't gonna cut it.
Posted by: Jaid Oct 11 2013, 06:52 PM
ummm... education is not as expensive as you seem to think it is.
my education as a technician took 2 years and cost me less than 10 grand (canadian) including books. that was 3 years ago now.
particularly since the corps often don't have to bear the burden of the cost of the education of their employees.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 10 2013, 02:05 AM)
Or you could ignore the fact that SR4 made skillwires an order of magnitude cheaper for no apparent reason.
i have no problem with skillwires being expensive. i have a problem with people claiming that skillwires are both expensive and extremely common, and are considered as a replacement to inexpensive training options.
Posted by: Sendaz Oct 11 2013, 06:54 PM
QUOTE (Remnar @ Oct 11 2013, 01:09 PM)
Sec Guards, on the other had, make less sense. You'll probably want them to be doing that most of the time and you can probably train them to shoot easier/cheaper. Then again, some of the stories I've heard from Police friends ... some people are just untrainable with firearms.
Funny you should mention the bit about untrainable. Back in boot camp we had one guy who pretty much failed the shooting section and had to redo it a few times just to get the minimum passing score.
He was a great guy, cool under fire but an absolute menace to his own team as much as the enemy when armed.
Where did he end up?
You got it... MP
Posted by: RHat Oct 11 2013, 07:15 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 11 2013, 11:52 AM)
my education as a technician took 2 years and cost me less than 10 grand (canadian) including books. that was 3 years ago now.=
To be fair, up here those costs are a hell of a lot lower for the student then in, say, the US, because part of the money is coming from other sources (see: government).
Posted by: Remnar Oct 11 2013, 07:24 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Oct 11 2013, 09:54 AM)
Funny you should mention the bit about untrainable. Back in boot camp we had one guy who pretty much failed the shooting section and had to redo it a few times just to get the minimum passing score.
He was a great guy, cool under fire but an absolute menace to his own team as much as the enemy when armed.
Where did he end up?
You got it... MP
He was a great guy, cool under fire but an absolute menace to his own team as much as the enemy when armed.
Where did he end up?
You got it... MP
Yeah, I was told a long story from a retired police officer about a particular "big city" recruit who. could. not. pass. qualifying. Took extra training, plenty of one on one with range officers, etc. Eventually they told the chief that he just couldn't do it, he couldn't qualify (which I think at the time was 70% or better).
Chief said "can he carry a gun without shooting himself" and they said, yes, but he can't shoot. Chief said, well, if he can carry a gun without shooting himself, that's good enough.
Yikes.
Posted by: Shemhazai Oct 11 2013, 08:17 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 10 2013, 10:05 AM)
You don't? I (personally) have business cards (and therefore contacts) that number in the thousands. ALL of them would be considered as Contacts in Shadowrun (and probably all of them would be Loyalty 1 - Just Business). Yes, Every Shadowrunner should eventually have a list of Contacts that is pretty impressive. Why would that be a problem?
That's exactly it. In real life we have hundreds of contacts but in the game Contacts are few. Why would I pay for a bartender contact at chargen when I can just go on a pub crawl and get a bunch for free?
Posted by: RHat Oct 11 2013, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 11 2013, 01:17 PM)
That's exactly it. In real life we have hundreds of contacts but in the game Contacts are few. Why would I pay for a bartender contact at chargen when I can just go on a pub crawl and get a bunch for free?
Loyalty. Let's say a Bartender is Connection 2, meaning that at Chargen you can get Loyalty 5. Getting a Connection 2 Contact is easy, but getting a Loyalty 5 Contact is not.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 11 2013, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 11 2013, 01:17 PM)
That's exactly it. In real life we have hundreds of contacts but in the game Contacts are few. Why would I pay for a bartender contact at chargen when I can just go on a pub crawl and get a bunch for free?
Whether you bought them or earned them, they still have to be tracked.
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Oct 11 2013, 10:11 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Oct 11 2013, 04:17 PM)
That's exactly it. In real life we have hundreds of contacts but in the game Contacts are few. Why would I pay for a bartender contact at chargen when I can just go on a pub crawl and get a bunch for free?
A fair point and one of the reasons I kind of preferred the basic contact from 1-3e. Yeah more levels of differentiation can add something, but when you go down to 1 either for loyalty or connection it quickly become obvious that any character should have something like chrx10 loyalty 1 contacts. I am more antisocial than most people and I have a crap ton more contacts than virtually any starting character in SR and many of them are over loyalty 1. How do these people know so few people chrx3 does not come close to a reasonable number. There really should be more to what a contact is on the connection side at the least where even 1 is enough that I'd scratch most the names off my list and say hey those are just people I know and not functioning contacts, but the descriptions don't hold that up.
Posted by: FuelDrop Oct 12 2013, 12:19 AM
QUOTE (Remnar @ Oct 12 2013, 02:09 AM)
some people are just untrainable with firearms.
That's not true! *Holds up knife* Um... which end do the bullets go in again?
Posted by: thorya Oct 12 2013, 01:04 AM
QUOTE (Remnar @ Oct 11 2013, 01:09 PM)
... some people are just untrainable with firearms.
If they're not responding to the firearms, try pointing them at their loved ones. The thing to remember when training people is that you must be willing to follow through on any threat you make and so make sure you aim for something that's not vital.
Posted by: SpellBinder Oct 12 2013, 02:19 AM
John Connor : "Hey! I said no killing!"
Terminator : "He'll live." *after having shot gate guard in both kneecaps*
Posted by: Jaid Oct 12 2013, 07:15 AM
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 11 2013, 03:15 PM)
To be fair, up here those costs are a hell of a lot lower for the student then in, say, the US, because part of the money is coming from other sources (see: government).
to be fair, education is subsidized in most first-world countries (to a greater or lesser extent). in the states, you can generally expect 16,000 a year or less if you're not going to an ivy league 4-year university program. (and let's face it, you're not going to send someone through a 4-year engineering program so they can do maintenance on your drones, more likely it's a 2-year program. for anything that needs a 4-year program or more, you're generally paying someone to do creative work, which skillwires aren't exactly suited for in the first place).
and to be even more fair, the corporation mostly only cares that they aren't the ones footing the bill. so long as it's someone else paying, it doesn't matter (to them) how much it costs.
Posted by: DWC Oct 15 2013, 01:03 PM
To be fair, even in private universities with massive 35 to 40k per year tuitions, the schools are offsetting a good chunk of their operating costs through dividends and interest on their endowments rather than passing those costs onto the students. In public universities, the difference comes from the state coffers.
Taking things back on target, I finally found something machineguns are good for. They outrange assault rifles by a ton. Being able to accurately engage targets out at sniper rifle ranges (1000+ meters) is a trick no assault rifle can pull off. Being able to engage a vehicle and all the occupants in a single trigger pull is occaisionally handy. I know it came up this weekend.
Machineguns still suck, but with enough use the little bright spots are starting to pop up.
Posted by: DamienKnight Oct 17 2013, 08:20 PM
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Oct 6 2013, 04:38 PM)
Bear in mind that roll is subject to the suppressed zone penalty of -3, making it no cakewalk.
I believe this penalty was intended for any tests a character makes for any action they are taking in the affected area. This does not count for the Reaction + Edge test. See the example in the book (page 179). The target Ghouls are affected by 3 successes on the suppression test. They have reaction 4 and edge 1, and the book does not mention a -3 penalty for the dodge test. Also, they get 2 successes.
Because they 1. don't list the penalty, 2. The ghouls get 2 successes, I believe they are not counting the Suppression zone penalty on the dodge test.
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 17 2013, 08:29 PM
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Oct 17 2013, 03:20 PM)
I believe this penalty was intended for any tests a character makes for any action they are taking in the affected area. This does not count for the Reaction + Edge test. See the example in the book (page 179). The target Ghouls are affected by 3 successes on the suppression test. They have reaction 4 and edge 1, and the book does not mention a -3 penalty for the dodge test. Also, they get 2 successes.
Because they 1. don't list the penalty, 2. The ghouls get 2 successes, I believe they are not counting the Suppression zone penalty on the dodge test.
Because they 1. don't list the penalty, 2. The ghouls get 2 successes, I believe they are not counting the Suppression zone penalty on the dodge test.
The dice pool penalty is to actions taken while in the suppressed area. The Reaction + Edge test (and defense tests in general) isn't actually an action -- it's a response to someone else's action. Similarly, resisting damage isn't considered an action either.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2013, 12:12 AM
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 17 2013, 01:29 PM)
The dice pool penalty is to actions taken while in the suppressed area. The Reaction + Edge test (and defense tests in general) isn't actually an action -- it's a response to someone else's action. Similarly, resisting damage isn't considered an action either.
And yet Reaction Tests are always affected by wound penalties, as do the penalties for being fired upon multiple times in the same pass (i.e. -1 Die per additional Attack). So in my opinion, the suppression zone should also have an effect on their Reaction as well. *shrug*
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 18 2013, 01:49 AM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 17 2013, 07:12 PM)
And yet Reaction Tests are always affected by wound penalties, as do the penalties for being fired upon multiple times in the same pass (i.e. -1 Die per additional Attack). So in my opinion, the suppression zone should also have an effect on their Reaction as well. *shrug*
The fact that reaction tests are affected by wound penalties and multiple attack penalties is entirely irrelevant, since there are specific rules for that.
Suppressive fire penalties are to actions, not reactions.
Posted by: mister__joshua Oct 18 2013, 07:21 AM
Also, as the threshold for the test is the number of hits on the suppression test, also giving a dice pool penalty equal to this would be harsh as every hit by the shooter would be +1 threshold and -1 dice.
Just a thought
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2013, 01:35 PM
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 17 2013, 07:49 PM)
The fact that reaction tests are affected by wound penalties and multiple attack penalties is entirely irrelevant, since there are specific rules for that.
Suppressive fire penalties are to actions, not reactions.
Suppressive fire penalties are to actions, not reactions.
A reaction is still an action, just not one that costs initiative or impact action economy.
Posted by: RHat Oct 18 2013, 03:44 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2013, 07:35 AM)
A reaction is still an action, just not one that costs initiative or impact action economy.
Nor, in fact, is it actually defined as an action in the text at any point.
Posted by: Epicedion Oct 18 2013, 04:51 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2013, 08:35 AM)
A reaction is still an action, just not one that costs initiative or impact action economy.
An action is an action. You know, Free Action, Simple Action, Complex Action. Avoiding a shot is a Defense Test.
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