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Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Oct 8 2013, 04:26 PM

While the lockpicking rules are somewhat clear, there doesn't seem to be anything supplied for safecracking.

In my current game, the group has taken down a small warehouse and their second-story woman has come across a small safe secured to the floor and wall under a desk. She has decided to start cracking it, and I need to be able to provide a test-mechanic to model her doing so, especially as it relates to time (they are on a clock).

As of right now, I've gone with (Logic + Lockpicking [Safe Rating], 1 minute) as the test.

Oddly, the book doesn't really define how to bypass a Maglock (it gives clear rules and tests for opening the case or dealing with the anti-tampering circuitry, but not for the actual 'lockpicking' of the maglock itself! Yay! I presume it is (Agility + Lockpicking + Maglock Passkey Rating [Maglock Rating])? But that is another can of worms.) but does describe how to bypass a transponder-embedded key.

I figure that the wallsafe is somewhere between a mechanical lock, a keypad and a maglock, so I set up the test to emulate the difficulty of an embedded key, though I am using the Lockpick skill in place of Hardware. The interval was set by the most difficult of the three types of bypasses.

I think that tying the test to Logic makes good sense, given that the problem at hand, while delicate, is more complex than that of racking a mechanical doorlock or some such. Tying the skill to Lockpicking makes a measure of sense to me, as the safecracker is not likely to be disassembling anything mechanical whilst cracking. To drill, or otherwise mechanically bypass the lock, would be a Hardware test, I think.

Thoughts? Suggestions? What kind of tools should assist in the safecracking?

Posted by: kzt Oct 8 2013, 05:57 PM

Is it a real safe, or a metal box with a lock? An if it is a safe, how tough is it? People don't casually stick $15,000 safes rated against cutting torches and explosives under a desk. For one thing they are big and for another they are very heavy.

An actual UL rated high security safe lock (Group 1) is basically impossible to open without doing things like drilling unless you are an expert with all sorts of really cool tools (like xray machines) or are impossibly lucky. They are rated against 20 hours of actual attempts to open it by an expert and typically take longer. The slightly less expensive group 2 locks are openable by someone who has some idea how to structure an attack but will take a while. Like a few hours.

Drilling actual rated safes is hard and you have to know just where to drill, otherwise you can lock the entire thing up forever. 7" rotary grinders or cutting torches are what people who are motivated, prepared and unskilled use. It can still take quite a while (a few minutes to an hour plus - depending on the safe) and possibly make a lot of noise, dust and heat, but you WILL open the damn thing.

If it's a cheap piece of trash that looks like a safe (and there are a lot of these) you can often do things like bypass the lock with a probe that hits the reset button on the electronic lock in under a minute. Recognizing what kind of trash it is and knowing how pop it is what skills are for.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Oct 8 2013, 06:24 PM

Gonna be watching this thread closely. My new face is also going to be the B&E specialist for our new SR5 group, and I just know lockpicking/safe cracking/security bypass will be a consistent thing I'll need to do.

With SR5, I'm not entirely certain it wasn't all just rolled into Lockpicking. Hardware explicitly states it's for the build and repair of electronic devices (such as comlinks, smartguns, and other such things. Locksmith on the other hand deals with the bypassing of any secure locking system. While it doesn't specifically mention safes, it mentions the things safes use. Keypads, combination locks, and even down to voice recognition and the like. So using Hardware no longer seems to fit.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Oct 8 2013, 10:11 PM

Thanks for the quick lesson about safes. I had no idea how any of that stuff works in the real world. That said, I am going to try and keep things as Shadowrun (5) as possible, and stick with manageable, real-time, results-oriented tests that characters can try and (maybe) succeed at, rather than lean on the real world for 20+ hours of rated work-time.

The contents of the safe, or rather the regular presence of such valuable contents, justify its usage under the desk in question. The warehouse regularly has goods coming and going from it, and it wouldn't be surprising to be asked to hold a small package of some significant value, or be paid in a physical currency or some sort, each demanding secure storage. My players will just have to pop the safe to find out what, if anything, is inside!

Your last point about the skills I think reinforces my usage of the Lockpicking skill, in that the cracking of a secured lock is the eponymous, specific perview of that skill. This is to differentiate it from the assembly / disassembly of a mechanical or electronic system: the Hardware skill.

I think that longer term, more complex, abstractly deep tests should rely on the Logic attribute. Those of the nearer term, leaning more heavily on dexterous manipulation, timing and sensitivity falling under Agility.

In other B&E related news, a character tried to boost a car... Again, a common enough problem in Shadowrun (and one that has spawned uncounted pages of flaming debate!), and yet so little in the way of guidance! I offered an Agility + Lockpicking to open the car door, or a Structure 2, Armor 4 breaking of the windows. From there, a Logic + Hardware test to do the 2070 equivalent to 'hotwiring' the ride.

Posted by: Slithery D Oct 8 2013, 10:44 PM

Duh, the wireless is on (bonus: send you an instant messages when the safe is opened), so you just hack it.

Posted by: CanRay Oct 8 2013, 11:21 PM

Mungo baughtz da termitez! "That is thermite, Mungo." Dat two!

Posted by: Sengir Oct 8 2013, 11:33 PM

Bain's contact man left the thermal drill in the parking lot...oh wait, wrong game.

I'd say cracking a safe is a good application for a B/R test with Locksmith as the technical skill. Or if you want to drill, "Industrial Mechanic" sounds like it covers drilling through solid steel (and everything else they put in safes).

Posted by: Writer Oct 9 2013, 12:02 AM

Just an idea on the topic:

Someone needs to create a spell that turns opaque matter clear.
Then, you could use magic fingers on the tumblers.

Posted by: kzt Oct 9 2013, 12:09 AM

Locksmith would cover drilling safes. In safe courses they also teach you how to drill them, it's how a safe tech opens a safe when someone has forgotten the combo to a group 1 lock or the lock breaks and the owner doesn't want to buy a new safe.

Drilling a hole in the safe isn't that hard hard. Don't get me wrong, there are things in a modern high security safe to make it a lot harder and take longer then you would think, but with persistence, enough drill bits and drills anyone can put a hole in the door or wall. It's knowing EXACTLY where to drill that matters. Drill in just the right place and you can have it open in a minute after the hole is done. A few mm off and at best you get nothing, at worst you hit something like the tempered glass relocker and the job becomes vastly harder.

Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 9 2013, 12:17 AM

You can also assume that the person that owns the safe is a dumbass and left it on the factory combo.

Ive worked in offices where that was the case.

Government offices.

Posted by: Dolanar Oct 9 2013, 12:19 AM

I would suggest a few things.

1. Add the Limit, if it is Logic, go [Mental], Agi? [Physical]

2. If you are cracking a Tumbler based lock system make sure if they choose to, they add their listening boosts from earbuds or such.

Posted by: Smash Oct 9 2013, 01:38 AM

Simple. Safes all have maglocks now.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Oct 9 2013, 01:39 AM

Thanks! I totally forgot about Limits. Darned rules changes.

Having the [Physical] Limit I think applies here given that, as smart as you can be about how to do it, you have to do it. Again, I think that the timeline logic works here: short timeline = physical, longer = mental.

Posted by: Rystefn Oct 9 2013, 04:01 AM

Figure out a way to wear the safe, then use Fashion to turn it into a grass skirt and all the stuff inside falls out. Fucking Fashion: the most useful spell in the game, if your GM lets you get creative with it.

Posted by: Sendaz Oct 9 2013, 12:41 PM

I suppose a Troll could use two safes with some straps glued on as Platform shoes. Does that qualify?

Posted by: Chinane Oct 9 2013, 01:00 PM

A cheap safe would probably have a cylinder lock or a maglock, maybe both. You'd use lockpicking for the former, electronics for the later. If the lock is slaved to a host you might be able to hack it.

The more sophisticated safes - as mentioned above - will have a proprietary locking mechanism. Your safest bet in that case would be to open it the way it is supposed to be opened .

Posted by: Emil Barr Oct 9 2013, 01:06 PM

When all else fails, C4!

Posted by: mister__joshua Oct 9 2013, 01:14 PM

Have they got tools, or just stumbled upon a safe unprepared?

I wouldn't allow a go at cracking the safe without any equipment.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 9 2013, 02:38 PM

Just be carfeul that you do not burn the Effing Money... Clarence really hates that, you know...

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Oct 10 2013, 07:28 PM

And he takes off hands and shoots co-workers when he gets upset. Or is having fun. Or both.

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 10 2013, 07:55 PM

I don't see how a higher rated safe makes the test easier.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 10 2013, 11:55 PM

Well, what I meant was the totally stupid approach: Take an industrial drill, angle grinder, or thermal lance and maul the safe until your reach the insides. Not drilling a precise peephole into the lock to open it

Posted by: kzt Oct 11 2013, 03:28 AM

Indeed. Tools like 7" grinders are what people seem to use when they need to open the safe and either nobody cares about trying to fix the safe or it's severely damaged and can't be opened any other way. Noisy, dusty and slow, but it will normally work eventually if you have enough disks and time.

Linear shaped charges would probably work faster, but people usually object to having their building trashed by the blast, plus the ATF rules for that kind of explosives are a pain.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Oct 11 2013, 07:54 AM

That's because the safe's Rating is the threshold. The higher the rating, the harder the test.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Oct 11 2013, 07:59 AM

Cracking a safe in-place, if you weren't coming specifically for the sake, is going to be next to impossible.

Cracking a safe if you can rip it out of the floor (such as with a troll, or a magician, or a troll magician,) throw it in the back of the van in a faraday cage and tackle it at your liesure is a matter of having a mechanical tool-shop at your disposal.

Cracking a safe if it's a cheap metal box sold as a safe is simple - lockpicking if it's mechanical, decking/electronics if it's electronic.


Just make sure it's not owned by someone genuinely paranoid. They might have rigged the motherhumper with C12, or at least something to destroy the contents.

Posted by: Sendaz Oct 11 2013, 08:10 AM

Or a bound spirit inside with orders to kill anyone other than the owner who opens/breaks into the safe. Never forget magical peeking ahead.

This also makes a good fall back if the spirit is set to attack anyone in the room besides the owner, if they force the owner at gunpoint to open the safe they could still get attacked. (Owner usually has everyone else out of the room when opening)

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Oct 11 2013, 08:43 AM

Of course, the proper countermeasure to that is to have a spirit go into the safe first.

I was in a game where we had to retrieve the contents of a safe from a house that had been thoroughly booby-trapped by Nefarious People. But they didn't take magic into account, so we had one of our two Free Spirits go into the safe, materialize in a small form around the contents of the safe, and fly (with the safe) out of the house, setting it off (it was a house rigged as an FAE, rather like Canray's infamous The Bus, but not nearly as efficient.)

The result was the safe shot out of the house like a rocket, landed in a crunch, popped open, the spirit flew out with the goods.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 11 2013, 09:48 AM

Speaking of spirits, magic does of course add a whole load of possibilities:
- Clairvoyance: The viewpoint may be moved by the caster, for example right into the locking mechanism
- Magic Fingers: Depending on whether they convey a touch sense you could just feel the position of the gears
- Shape X: Safe walls may be more than just steel, but the steel holds it together
- custom "reverse Ignite": Advanced variant of cracking bicycle locks with cold spray, obviously depends on the material

Posted by: Draco18s Oct 11 2013, 01:47 PM

Sorry, was thinking SR5's limits. Gawd Damn Notation.

Posted by: kzt Oct 11 2013, 04:37 PM

Sometimes you don't even have to go that far....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57606993-504083/two-burglars-killed-when-safe-filled-with-fireworks-explodes-say-n.h-police/
HOPKINTON, N.H. - Two young men who allegedly used a blow-torch to break into a safe in a southern New Hampshire business were killed when fireworks stored in the safe exploded, officials said, according to CBS Boston.

The State Fire Marshal says the men, Lucas Bourke of Allenstown and Ethan Keeler of Epsom, both 21, were using an oxy-acetylene blow torch to try to cut into a large safe...

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Oct 14 2013, 10:33 PM

Personally, I arrived at these kinds of rules to specifically avoid having the Shadowrun game turn into a meta-game based on dragging safes back to some kind of a (herp derp) safehouse, to be worked on at a later date.

As far as I am concerned, the game is about real-time capers, resolved by use of Active Skills (eponymously titled in the corebook!), rather than some strange, totally abstract place where layer upon layer of absurdities are piled up until the game becomes untying the utterly ridiculous knot formed by a GM with too much imagination and an all-too-loose grasp on reality (and fun).

In short, the gamer-fueled idea that thermite solves all problems is not really what I am going for. I was thirteen once, and thankfully, I am no longer.

Posted by: vladski Oct 15 2013, 01:31 AM

"Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
- Sundance Kid

Vlad

Posted by: Sendaz Oct 15 2013, 11:13 AM

Reminds me of a tale told to me by one of my father's friend's who had been one of the engineers expanding the area for one of the runways at Lowry AFB back around during the Korean War.

The story goes how they were drilling a series of holes and laying six sticks of dynamite (TNT) per hole with appropriate fuses being set to break up the area so the heavy machinery could go in to start building.

Now if you have ever used dynamite, you know that the TNT is soaked into an absorbent substance, which in this case was wood pulp/sawdust.

Military minds being what they were and bored with tedious drilling over and over, one of the guys decided that 6 sticks was not enough bang for them.

So the genius plan was to basically unwrap the dynamite and caaaaarefully tamp the TNT soaked sawdust into the holes, which you can get away with as its less shock sensitive when soaked into sawdust and still fairly fresh with no sweating crystals which can form over time.

Anyway, instead of 6 sticks worth, the tale goes that they tripled their payload, effectively making it 18 sticks to each hole.

The lot of them then laid out the wires and took cover behind appropriate shelter, chortling to themselves as hit the plunger.

It was said to be glorious.

The resultant shockwave and flying rubble also destroyed windows in the 'nearby' homes facing the blast a good few miles off along with other assorted damages.

There was many stripes and bars taken that day as he ruefully admitted, but he still swears it was totally worth it.