Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shadowrun as a dying setting?
Posted by: Fatum Feb 4 2014, 02:56 PM
I've finally understood what repels me so much about the modern-day Shadowrun.
It isn't the lack of editing, or the adventures built on weird presumptions about the player logic, and not even the failures in the metaplot - all of that was present aplenty before, too. The problem is moving from what made the setting unique, and it didn't by far start with the Fifth Edition, either. Look, what made Shadowrun special? SuperAIs that hold a whole corporate city-in-a-city captive, and then dish it out in the brains of their followers (literally) - gone, disappeared. Bug City, a postapocalyptic wasteland full of dangerous spirits - gone, Chicago's becoming civilized again. Imperial Japan, a nationalist country with a persuasive culture and global influence - gone, replaced with shintoist ecology games and local rebuilding. Mysterious Great Dragons that decide the fates of civilizations - gone, now every Vory broad knows the most hidden of their secrets. Metatypes as a meaningful characteristic, the power behind political movements, including creation of new nations - gone, tolerance is the dish of the day, metahatred is a fringe phenomenon, and the insular states built on the idea of one metatype superiority are moving towards instead becoming "normal", losing their uniqueness. Megacorps ready to burn the Earth for an extra nuyen of profit, ghouls with their own state where of course people aren't eaten, poverty-ridden barrens full of legal non-entities - all of that has been moved out of focus and either disappeared there altogether, or at was least sterilized and normalized there.
All in all, the setting's losing what made it itself rapidly, and it's getting nothing it return.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 4 2014, 02:59 PM
You mean the setting is becoming political correct?
Posted by: Chimera Feb 4 2014, 03:01 PM
I would tend to agree. Perhaps the setting needs a new antagonist. Too bad the Yuuzhan Vong are in a galaxy far, far away...
Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 4 2014, 03:04 PM
That is not neccessarely a good thing in my eyes either . .
Posted by: Fatum Feb 4 2014, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure whether the intention was to make it more politically correct, but it's having the sharp corners cut, yes.
As for new enemies - there were shedim, for instance, a great enemy with a lot of potential. What have they been up to after the New Jihad? Nothing much?
Judging by the current developments, we're seeing the return of insect spirits (except on a smaller scale and less logical than the Universal Brotherhood and the Bug City) and a nano-plague (which to me so far is not exactly breathtaking, seeing the jokes like nano-produced assault rifles melting to slag from it).
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 4 2014, 03:18 PM
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.
I believe that the drift towards PC is to be capable of casting a larger net to try and bring newer players. Then again, this might allienate the old ones.
I mean, Shadowrun Online is coming. How many of you believe that the game will be PG-13? I do. Because if the game was to show the violence, despair and horror of a true dystopia, they would lose all the potential high school kids as clients.
Another thing possibly unrelated, but I've heard stories that pen and paper RPG has becoming more and more niche (than what used to be, exactly because of the rise of MMOs), don't know how true this is.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 4 2014, 03:23 PM
As for me, making the setting less special is making it harder to sell to new players. It's one thing to pitch an awesome cyberpunk dystopia where elves have their own kingdom in Portland bent on racial superiority and megacorps are out to get you and rape the planet, it's quite another to sell a postcyberpunk where there are elves in Portland and kinda evilish megacorps.
New players (hell, all players) want intensity, not blandness.
Posted by: sk8bcn Feb 4 2014, 05:16 PM
I believe that the drift towards PC is to be capable of casting a larger net to try and bring newer players. Then again, this might allienate the old ones.
I mean, Shadowrun Online is coming. How many of you believe that the game will be PG-13? I do. Because if the game was to show the violence, despair and horror of a true dystopia, they would lose all the potential high school kids as clients.
???
I don't see why that would ever dictate where the game is going. I mean I could create a PC game in Mootland in Lord of The Rings acceptable for 7+ and in the same universe do a darker one in the Mordor.
Likewise, not every SR tabletop has be put into Shadowrun Online.
Posted by: nezumi Feb 4 2014, 05:33 PM
It's a new edition. My bet is their clearing out the old and they'll be building something new once the few core books are settled.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 4 2014, 05:34 PM
Certain settings to become PC either have to be stripped of everything that makes it unique or it just becomes something bland.
I mean, sure, LotR can be good for children but then again you better explain why it's ok to kill orcs and not humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits. You could make a whole game in the Shire where the players just have to deal with wolves and stuff...
Shadowrun has a LOT, a LOT mature content. The whole xenophoby stuff for different metahuman variants and even other sapient species., it has social classes struggle and the players are basically mercenary criminals. So, yes, creating a Political Correct campaign for Shadowrun would seriously harm the setting as a whole.
Toon on the other hand is a RPG that really any one could play it because the setting is completely based on cartoon physics.
Posted by: Sponge Feb 4 2014, 06:45 PM
I find the setting's appeal remains unchanged for me. But then the appeal for me was never these specific events, because I mostly ignore them and the metaplot except as established history. None of the ingredients that went into making those events have left the setting, and I am at complete liberty to use those ingredients to create me own epic plotlines and world events.
Posted by: Abschalten Feb 4 2014, 07:25 PM
I thought the line was doing fine until the Loren Coleman scandal pretty much made all the writing talent run away. War! was a pretty watershed moment for Shadowrun and CGL. That's about the point where everything started sliding downhill fast.
I think Ghost Cartels was the start of something really special, and we can only guess how that metaplot would've turned out now.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 4 2014, 09:05 PM
Ghost Cartels was indeed a very nice campaign book.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 4 2014, 09:59 PM
Posted by: RHat Feb 4 2014, 10:13 PM
I think part of the issue is that some of those elements originally had a sort of anchor in real-world worries, and became unmoored as the world changed. While that might not much impact the people who'd already been playing, it WOULD have an impact on bringing in new players, and if that weren't dealt with Shadowrun would probably have died some time ago.
It's the most basic problem of maintaining a "20 Minutes Into the Future" setting over the years.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 4 2014, 11:02 PM
It's the most basic problem of maintaining a "20 Minutes Into the Future" setting over the years.
Yes... This. So much this.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 4 2014, 11:49 PM
If anything, the world changed to resemble cyberpunk more, not less...
Posted by: Samoth Feb 5 2014, 12:31 AM
As for new enemies - there were shedim, for instance, a great enemy with a lot of potential. What have they been up to after the New Jihad? Nothing much?
Judging by the current developments, we're seeing the return of insect spirits (except on a smaller scale and less logical than the Universal Brotherhood and the Bug City) and a nano-plague (which to me so far is not exactly breathtaking, seeing the jokes like nano-produced assault rifles melting to slag from it).
People complained about shedhim and horrors and other MagicRun things, but the flipside is running against EvilCorp #5 or yet another mob boss.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 5 2014, 01:11 AM
I for one see nothing wrong about magical threats. I mean, technological threats are pretty omnipresent in the Sixth World.
Or, well, they used to be omnipresent before megacorps became oh so PR image sensitive.
Posted by: tjn Feb 5 2014, 02:06 AM
Waitwaitwait... where's all those who were complaining about the grimdarkening of SR during the close of SR4? Moreover, championing Ghost Cartels as the direction they want SR to go in? This is me with my mind blown.
SR5 has had no metaplot currently only because Storm Front was a game changer that leveled the metaplot to its foundations in advance of the release of 5th edition. Subsequently, we've only really had the main BBB to come out for 5th. There has been no Renraku Arcology: Shutdowns or Bug Cities because there just hasn't been any plot books made for 5th yet. Given that the expanded rule books are quite likely to be the only books in the near future, there's a bit of argument in that there's no forward progression in the SR universe after Storm Front, but to say SR's metaplot is gone altogether is just being purposefully obtuse.
My personal experience is that SR has a problem with endings. There's been so many world shaking plots and conspiracies over the course of the line that have aftershocks and repercussions effecting everything that it stretches my suspension of disbelief to a breaking point. Fatum points at Deus and the arcology shutdown and declares it "gone." I view as a question of where exactly has Dues gone to? Yes, the arcology itself is no longer the gygaxian death trap, but Deus, in some form, is still out there. His otaku are still out there. The corps are still trying to unravel his technologies and the political fallout from a government having to take a military action to bail out a corporation flows directly into the DC power plays, which then opens up the Black Lodge and the IOND. And there's nothing to stop a GM from pulling something out of his ass and saying that one of Deus' projects, say in the depths of the nuclear power plants under the arc just got activated. Or the Black Lodge finally got ahold of all of the artifacts from the Dawn of the Artifacts series and pulled off a world shaking ritual. Don't be constrained by the lack of plot books for 5th telling you what to do, because there's more than enough plot threads left dangling for any GM to take and make his/her own.
As for the racism, I've felt it's never left and in fact has gotten more "realistic," in that it's just another jaded part of everyday life. Your average person will say Humanis is a bunch of nutjobs... but all their friends are humans, their neighbors are humans, and their co-workers are mostly humans, except for Bob, who we all know got hired only because the company didn't want to upset the National Association for the Advancement of Metahumans. That "I'm not Humanis, but..." or "Bob's an ork, but at least he isn't a technomancer..." screed and self justification of the inherit racism reads closer to my own perceptions and leads into how I can't take the over the top racism of the early works seriously.
Which goes back to RHat's "20 minutes into the future" point. SR needs to move and adapt to the current trends, politics, and most importantly, the current fears of our times. Cyberpunk was born out of the fears of the 80's. That's thirty years ago, and I don't believe that holding on to where SR was will attract new players, or continue to entertain older players that have already "been there, done that" for the original 80's fears, back in the 80's...
YMMV and all that.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 5 2014, 02:45 AM
I don't think either the setting (powerful megacorporations, weakened nation states, great dragons and other mysterious behind-the-scenes types, and magic) or the premise of the game (criminals for hire who work for/against the megas, with a bit of Robin Hood idealism mixed in with a bit of noir and a bit of action movie) have changed that much. Some parts of the setting - racist Amerindians who commit mass murder but are still somehow the "good guys", elven totalitarian states, overpowered great dragons, Japan as the boogieman it was to some people in the 80's - are pure crap, and I am glad they are papering over some of it.
Honestly, I wish they would fill in some of the nuts, bolts, and everyday details, and stop trying to have an apocalyptic, world-changing event every month.
I think it is the mix of magic and technology that will always give Shadowrun its uniqueness. And I think it has transitioned to post-cyberpunk so well because it never went full-out cyberpunk (in the corporate feudalism sense). I mean that in a good way. Corporations may be powerful, but nation-states are still there, and the wild card of resurgent magic and all of its ramifications.
Posted by: Sponge Feb 5 2014, 03:24 AM
What an awesome phrase
Posted by: Curator Feb 5 2014, 04:16 AM
Its basically the truth that we need to wait till more publications come out for more plot lines to develop, that's how they push the changes. I mean, the universe is what it is, even if it is evolving. but for anyone, like myself who's taken the universe and dove headfirst in, i'm enjoying the books based in the 50's and 70's. If you look at the plotlines, you can see that the plots hit a wall around 2063 and they just made a crash happen and pushed the 4th edition. they were touching on the idea of themes used in the 70's, but i guess they would think it easier to just force a huge change and then develop from there.
i don't think the universe or game is hard to sell at all. i haven't played a game yet, but i have about 10 new players ready to play when i can get a car to organize a game. all of them i basically convinced that its D&D/LOTR and Ghost in the Shell mixed together. bam! sold. OR that we can download an app and avoid the massive d6 rolling. i can't wait to play. but till then, i'm working on my 11th novel, and i'm almost done with every 4e book i can afford.. and re-reading the 5th rules again. i mean... i don't understand why this game isn't way more popular. it's super violent, it's a twisted mad awesome world, (i mean combat biking) it's very anime esque, and it's got AN amazing history to divulge in.
for future plotlines... the undead, another plague, superb cyborg's & AI, maybe a land war invasion inside the americas, the idea of diving to deep in metaplanes and bringing out unknown entities, space travel, and even more advanced technology. plus there's tons of cities with no plot lines ever yet. in fact i better see if my idea for a story can put a known surving city on the map.. i need to get that taken care of. so sweet
Posted by: RHat Feb 5 2014, 04:20 AM
I gotta be honest, as far as plotlines go I spent most of SR4 really hoping they'd do something awesome with Dissonants - something to really drive home that they're a big damn threat to everyone.
Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 5 2014, 04:47 AM
Not to single you out Shinobi, given that the OP certainly touches upon the concept first, but this is a really loaded way of terming it and I think it has very little to do with the real problem besides. Really, I think Glyph is closer to the truth. A lot of the stuff sounds somewhat interesting if wacky when summarized, but in practice a lot of those old SR staples were really borked in practice even if you were OK with the subtext. For example, both Tirs and the NAN had serious timeline and demographics issues that were not adequately addressed by the fluff that was available. And that really is a problem, because it's harder to extrapolate what should be happening within a setting when none of the premises you're working with make a lick of sense to begin with. As a GM, I look back at a lot of that old stuff and just don't want to deal with it. Any comprehensive fix I can come up for that stuff would end up being sufficiently complicated that I may as well start from scratch and concentrate on my own pet obsessions instead, since it would hardly be more work. Furthermore, such issues have a real trickle down effect, since if the Tir seems kinda stupid then that splash damages Immortal Elves who are intimately connected to those settings which in turn hurts the perceived value of the rest of the metaplot given that the whole Earthdawn thing is supposed to be kind of a big deal. So, really, you end up with a lot of incentive for the writers to wallpaper over that crap and start over, but at the same time it must be said that it's still a net loss for the setting if that crap gets tossed in a landfill without having enough good content out there to replace it first.
Posted by: kzt Feb 5 2014, 05:31 AM
Honestly, I wish they would fill in some of the nuts, bolts, and everyday details, and stop trying to have an apocalyptic, world-changing event every month.
I think it is the mix of magic and technology that will always give Shadowrun its uniqueness. And I think it has transitioned to post-cyberpunk so well because it never went full-out cyberpunk (in the corporate feudalism sense). I mean that in a good way. Corporations may be powerful, but nation-states are still there, and the wild card of resurgent magic and all of its ramifications.
This is pretty much my view.
Though if they had people who were competent running the damn product line or as writers it would sure help a lot. The Neo-Nazi "murder the jew ghosts" adventure was not an improvement over any of the awful crap that showed up over time. Not only was it offensive, it was clearly written by someone who didn't understand the rules and edited by someone who didn't understand the rules then published by someone who didn't understand the rules.
Posted by: Smash Feb 5 2014, 05:55 AM
In my mind the problem is not the big events but rather the tone of the game has changed, and to be honest I think that has been driven by the realists....and in a bad way.
This game rocked when you could do things without having to worry about nanobots tracking you down in your sleep and turning you into goo, when a security camera was just.... a camera, and it wasn't assumed that every minute of of said film is analysed with gait/facial recognition software. Seriously, gait recognition software? This is where I diverge from the realists. Yes, in the future this sort of stuff will probably happen, but that doesn't make for a good game. The game was so much better when...well..... there were pink mohawks.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 5 2014, 01:38 PM
Well, I always assumed that way before Ryumio awoke, the setting was already changing, with, perhaps 10% of the American population being of Native-Americans instead of the actual 1% and there being not only native-americans but other people who shared the belief of protecting the land fighting the American Government agains the Resource War.
Then again, and I agree that this was possibly an oversight of the writers was to describe how the climate and geography of the world changed when para-critters became an actual thing.
I mean, what kind of vermin control can you have against a 15 feet tall armadillo on steroids?
VITAS, war and hunger made a damn good job in culling human population.
Anyway, just my two
on the whole thing.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 5 2014, 02:11 PM
The game was so much better when...well..... there were pink mohawks.
Only if you actually liked that sort of thing, though. In my opinion, the game got better when there started being consequences for the ignorant murder sprees those with Mohawks caused.
Posted by: Sendaz Feb 5 2014, 02:32 PM
Perhaps, but when pink Mohawk went out of style, a lot of hair stylists were put out of work, some of whom even went on to join the shadows.
You would be suprised how years of handling blades and scissors while just listening to people in some of the tougher inner cities made for fair CQC training and Face/Fixer skills....
R.I.P. Bobby 'Bro Fro'
Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 5 2014, 02:33 PM
Please don't start a mohawk/mirror argument 
.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 5 2014, 03:46 PM
You would be suprised how years of handling blades and scissors while just listening to people in some of the tougher inner cities made for fair CQC training and Face/Fixer skills....
R.I.P. Bobby 'Bro Fro'
We will always remember him with fondness...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 5 2014, 03:47 PM
.One could argue that one needs Mirrors to properly care for one's Mohawk.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 5 2014, 04:05 PM
This is actually a problem I have with the setting. Go look at the populations for Seattle and such - supposedly everyone's favorite megaplex is significantly larger than it currently is but has about 1/2 - 1/3 the population (off the top of my head, Seattle is roughly 11 million people yet in SR it's like 8.something), and yet is overpopulated. I call horrible, horrible BS.
It's pretty much the only problem I have with the setting, but it's an important one.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 5 2014, 04:18 PM
It's pretty much the only problem I have with the setting, but it's an important one.
Demographics are an interesting thing.
Posted by: Demonseed Elite Feb 5 2014, 04:39 PM
I'm not really sure I agree with the the original post and its premise.
If handled well, metaplot-lines should resolve themselves. That does not always happen, however, because of changing writers, changing line developers, and new edition upheaval. That the Deus plotline was resolved is not a problem for me. That Bug City was resolved and Chicago is starting to recover in some form, also not a problem. Etc, etc.
Along those same lines, I never really saw a lack of antagonists in the setting. Some changed, yes, and some became less two-dimensional. The Japanese Imperial State, for instance, became less of a two-dimensional "racist bad guy nation" with the introduction of some internal dissent. But those elements did not go away entirely. That's one reason I liked the Saito material so much and was sad that it didn't get resolved in any proper way. Here was a guy who was clearly part of traditionalist Imperial Japan and he said no when a reforming Emperor recalled him. His Protectorate was actually one of the most stable places in California after the Year of the Comet, but it was not a great place to be a metahuman if you didn't enjoy being a second-class citizen. Was Saito a relic of a bygone time when everyone was scared of metahumans or was he evidence that when everything goes to hell in a handbasket, scared people like a strongman?
There was a plan there and Ghost Cartels was only the very beginning of it. The full plan was never etched in stone before it was killed off and to be honest I wasn't a fan of all of the nascent ideas, but we did talk about some great stuff. The basic gist involved a very powerful spirit that was claiming to be Gaia (most likely was not, but the idea was to keep that in doubt) leading a bunch of toxic spirits to rise up against metahumanity for all of their crimes against Mother Earth. Distributing Tempo was a first move; the drug's ability to allow spirits to possess addicts would play into the spirits' later moves. Clearly there were elements of Amazonia involved in this plot, but there was also a plan to involve radical elements in the Native American Nations later, which was going to give us an excuse to revisit the NAN.
Deus, for the most part, died at the end of System Failure. Though I had deliberately left it dangling what had happened to his Nodes. They went into a coma after compiling Deus, but in theory they all still carried his code in their brains. The game line never came back to the Nodes (and generally declared super-AI a totally dead idea), so we'll never really know what happened there, but I left it out there as something GMs could feel free to use. And yes, Deus unleashed a lot of screwed up otaku on the world. We know what happened to Puck and Pax, but what about Scarecrow and The Nubian? No one really knows. Again, more GM fodder.
Posted by: hermit Feb 5 2014, 05:13 PM
Actually, they did follow it up; I think that's what the Morbus Schletz plot is about. For one, Deus didn't die, he fractured into smaller AI (whether or not the Paragons are also such splinters is not resolved yet, though I hope so, it would at least tie the 'mancers back into the world and do away with this highly annoying Matrix Magic bullshit). That's in Splintered State (p. 56, sidebar). So by the looks of it, the Setting is basically going with the Sprawl Trilogy plot - Super-AI, Singularity, zzzapp, AI becomes gods of Matrix Voodoo Hoodoo.
Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 5 2014, 07:12 PM
Then again, and I agree that this was possibly an oversight of the writers was to describe how the climate and geography of the world changed when para-critters became an actual thing.
I mean, what kind of vermin control can you have against a 15 feet tall armadillo on steroids?
VITAS, war and hunger made a damn good job in culling human population.
Anyway, just my two
on the whole thing.Fudging the details is certainly a reasonable way to go about things at the group level, but at a game line level rampant fudging dilutes the consistency of your setting from table to table, which makes it harder to introduce true signature themes and characters to act as anchors for your setting as a whole. If you and I have wildly different interpretations of how the NAN works, that means that at least one of us is virtually guaranteed to feel put off by the next NAN release, and that hurts the value of the NAN fluff to the franchise. Beyond that, the fascination with Native Americans always hit me as crazy retro, if anything. Playing some Native American dude who reclaimed their land through shamanism seems like the kind of New Age fantasy that largely died out by the late '80s alongside The Cult's commercial viability. I suppose the greater concerns about cultural appropriation these days doesn't help, either, of course, but that does little to explain why the Tirs have largely crashed and burned either.
Posted by: kzt Feb 5 2014, 08:24 PM
The NAN and the Tirs all required massive and continuing justifications for why they ever existed and how they continue to exist. Mostly because the people who came up with these had no idea WTF they were doing and just threw words on a page and everyone at FASA said "Sizzle good!"
So as soon as someone who isn't totally in love with these is in charge they get flushed because they have bigger fish to fry than trying to justify something that was crazy in 1988 or 1993. Plus the whole IE love thing resulted in a bit of backlash.
Frank and AH have recently pointed pointed that the Tir books manage to completely overlook the point that the oldest elves are like 16 when these were founded, so pretty much nothing makes any sense. Or that a country that has the population of Minneapolis doesn't need 6 levels of government, 4 of which are supposedly secret.
Posted by: RHat Feb 5 2014, 08:29 PM
... Except that Resonance predates technomancers (being linked to otaku as well), and that the whole sidebar you mention doesn't link to what you said in any way. Frigging Jake Armitage isn't a splinter of Deus.
I was hoping for a whole dissonant thing - and I suppose it's still possible, perhaps as a variation upon the whole Code Induced Disease idea - but it's quite clear that e-ghosts are at the center of the whole Sybil thing.
Posted by: Abschalten Feb 5 2014, 08:30 PM
Dude. Frank and AH's takedowns of Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg were brilliant and hilarious. I was cracking up so hard last night reading those. They were spot on, and they just eviscerated those tomes and the ridiculousness in them, which perpetuates to this day.
Posted by: RHat Feb 5 2014, 08:41 PM
Well, as long as you don't need the Immortal Elves to come off as the good guys, there's a way to make it work.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 5 2014, 08:42 PM
Which only shows that some Hate and some Don't
Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2014, 08:55 PM
And then comes James Meier and kills . . Aina Sluage?
Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 5 2014, 09:16 PM
They have some pretty well thought out reasons for the hate though. To this day, I've never had either Tir contribute anything substantial to a game that I've been in, and I don't think that's an accident. Hell, even Japan had no impact in my games outside of the Japanese megacorps. At the end of the day, Shadowrun is more often than not a game about criminals for hire, and the only big claim to fame that the Tirs and Tokyo really have in SR boils down to being racially homogeneous isolationists who are obsessed with having the best security in the world despite having no unique man-portable resources for outsiders to steal. So, even if you ignore the bits that don't make sense, you're still left with the conclusion that all three nations are bad targets when it comes to for-profit crime. Having your ork runner move to Tokyo for the job opportunities is like having your pick of any celebrity to mug in a fist fight and choosing Cain Velasquez.
Posted by: Sengir Feb 5 2014, 09:24 PM
Secluded settings where normal rules don't apply are nice, but I also like that they don't last forever, instead of "whoa, serious event" and then nothing happens. I'd complain that the pipeline for such settings is drying up (unless you count GeMiTo...), not that existing one are "saved".
Japan takes over...I personally hope it becomes more pronounced again, but I can understand that people consider it an outdated pop culture reference
Shadowtalkers suddenly becoming omniscient narrators, The Black Lodge suddenly being common knowledge...can we just pretend all of that does not exist, thank you. I'm happy with my denial stage
...which were major screwballs
The "urban wasteland" aspect disappeared? I can't really agree with your premise here...
All in all, it reminds me of my attitude to the new Berlin book: The anarchist project with cannibal restaurants was weird as hell, but when it got "civilized" I felt like "well, it was somewhat cool.."
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 5 2014, 09:34 PM
Aspects are only showcased if you choose to showcase them. I appreciate the Tir's even if they are never utilized in a game (we have used both in ours over the years (Tokyo too), even in SR4A). Not using them is a choice. Some games will NEVER use them because that environment/location holds no interest. Others might use them exclusively.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 5 2014, 09:49 PM
So as soon as someone who isn't totally in love with these is in charge they get flushed because they have bigger fish to fry than trying to justify something that was crazy in 1988 or 1993. Plus the whole IE love thing resulted in a bit of backlash.
Frank and AH have recently pointed pointed that the Tir books manage to completely overlook the point that the oldest elves are like 16 when these were founded, so pretty much nothing makes any sense. Or that a country that has the population of Minneapolis doesn't need 6 levels of government, 4 of which are supposedly secret.
I don't know, I think there's tremendous room for hilarity here. You could make all kinds of jokes about top heavy government inefficiency and bureaucracy and then there's a lot of emo bureaucrats because they're in fact a bunch of teenagers, or something like that.
Like, you could do Tir so that they're so image conscious that everyone's afraid of them or buys into their image, but behind the scenes it's worse than the US federal government.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 5 2014, 09:51 PM
I need some humor...do you have a link?
Thanks!!!
Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2014, 10:05 PM
Thanks!!!
here you go
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55019
i'll actually link this too:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53716
Posted by: Sendaz Feb 5 2014, 10:07 PM
Like, you could do Tir so that they're so image conscious that everyone's afraid of them or buys into their image, but behind the scenes it's worse than the US federal government.
Sounds like the making of the next hit Teen Drama on Fox
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 5 2014, 10:30 PM
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55019
i'll actually link this too:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53716
Thanks!
Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2014, 10:42 PM
No Problem.
The Den is pretty acidic an environment, but that's part of it's charme.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 5 2014, 10:56 PM
I feel you're kind of missing the point here, folks. Are the Tirs and the NAN based on faulty premises? Maybe - do you really care? The whole cyberpunk pretty much is. The thing is, all that old-fashioned ridiculous stuff gives you something to make the setting special. "What's special about California Republic?" "It's captured by a rebel hardliner Japanese general". "What's special about Imperial Japan?" "It's a nationalist metaphobic state, home to traditionalist yakuza rings and japanacorps". "What's special about Azt?" "It's a corporation heavily involved with Blood Magic - they want to summon the end times to be the only ones to survive".
As the setting changed (maybe towards being more realistic, this is beyond the point), that feeling of being special went away, to be replaced with nothing. "What's special about California Republic?" "Nothing much, it's just a state in the West of North America". "What's special about Japan?" "Nothing much, it's just a state in the Far East". "What's special about Azt?" "Nothing much, it's just a megacorp like any other - a bit more direct about its conquests, maybe".
Putting it simply, I don't want the setting to be "realistic". I want it to be vibrant, unique, and engaging, while trying not to ruin the verisimilitude too much. If having Awakened Nations requires a bunch of Native Americans to capture a launch site and launch a nuke and 140 millions of Yakuts living past the habitation belt, so be it. Same as I don't particularly care how a dungeon sustains its monster population when there are no adventurers around. There's an explanation, even a lazy one? Fine. There isn't? Fine, too.
That's why the problem is not the metaplot itself. The Bug City line resolved, and Chicago is rebuilding; the superAIs killed each other? I'm fine with that development, but give me something else to spark my imagination, something to make me hold my breath. Sengir is right - the pipeline that produced such unique events and subsettings is basically dead. And it's not for the lack of wiggling space in the setting itself.
Posted by: Sponge Feb 5 2014, 11:03 PM
So what exactly is preventing you from having all that in your game?
Posted by: RHat Feb 5 2014, 11:17 PM
You know, thinking about it, part of your issue might be the way that a lot of stuff was wholly self-contained in SR4. If you look at Twilight Horizon, for example, that stuff could easily have stretched across multiple books worth of metaplot development. That, frankly, would have been interesting, because you had all sort of crazy technomancer and spirit stuff going on around that time.
Things like the nanoplot are pretty clearly going in a different direction - that's already been in Storm Front and the subject of Splintered State, plus there's Stolen Souls coming around at some point to really delve into that. There's supposed to be something going on with Boston as an ongoing thing for SRO, as well.
And as for the setting changing to be more "realistic", I don't think that's the case - it's just that some of the things that weren't realistic in the first place were sorta anchored to the time that they were conceived, and over time they've become unmoored. Things like that need to be dealt with for the health of the setting.
Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 5 2014, 11:21 PM
Replacing it with nothing is certainly a bad idea. Hell, I said as much in my first post. It doesn't mean that the previous shit was well thought out enough to serve as a good foundation for further books, however, and I think that notion came home to roost. It's not even that unusual or exceptional of an occurrence--keeping things interesting for the better part of a couple decades is really hard to do, and just like everything else in this world Shadowrun was never perfect.
Posted by: RHat Feb 5 2014, 11:23 PM
Yeah, and that's the trick. It can be pretty damned difficult to do triage on the dated shit while at the same time bringing along interesting stuff to build from - especially if you're aiming to make it interesting stuff that will appeal to the old players you want to keep and the new players you want to bring in. The balance of that is damned hard enough when that's ALL you're trying to do.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 6 2014, 12:58 AM
Posted by: kzt Feb 6 2014, 01:05 AM
Modern Japan is a very different place from Modern Chicago or London, without being run by mass murdering racist militarists who rule the pacific with an Iron Fist ™, or by nature worshiping lovers of all humanity. SR tends to use cheap and vastly overinflated stereotypes and those just don't hold together over time.
Posted by: RHat Feb 6 2014, 02:42 AM
Whether you rebuild on the ashes or on new ground, it's still a LOT to do at once. Really, the former seems easier than the latter.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 6 2014, 03:32 AM
Pyongyang or Delhi or Hô Chi Minh would be noticeably different, but those are run by mass murdering racist militarists or other such interesting people.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 6 2014, 03:36 AM
I don't know, I would describe those setting a bit less mundanely. The California Republic was formerly ruled by the JIS with an iron fist, and now dealing with a power vacuum that a lot of vying factions are trying to fill. It also has partially-submerged cities and P2.0, which is like facebook taken to the extreme - California runners actually record their crimes. Japan is still a hub of economic and military power that exerts a strong influence on the world, but they are less of a faceless monolithic threat, and more a mess of vying factions like the rest of the Sixth World. I actually liked their writeup in Corporate Enclaves. It is a place where you need to pay attention to concepts like giri and honor, but it is a place that runners from Seattle can actually visit, and find work there. Aztechnology is still what it has always been - a corrupt company born from the Sinola Cartel, the puppetmasters of Aztlan, who practice blood magic and are festooned with trappings of Aztec mysticism, while at the same time they rule a far-flung empire of subsidiaries and have such good PR that the man on the street would poo-poo the notion of them having human sacrifices on top of one of their pyramid-like buildings.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 6 2014, 03:37 AM
See, this is why I advocate for just playing 80s run for fun in terms of the setting and flair, while refining and focusing on a satisfying firefight mechanic.
That way we don't need to hire demographers to speculate about what would "realistically" happen if a nation of Native American hipsters with real magic powers decided to revolt and form their own nation-state in the wake of the collapse of the USA.
Posted by: kzt Feb 6 2014, 04:11 AM
Pyongyang or Delhi or Hô Chi Minh would be noticeably different, but those are run by mass murdering racist militarists or other such interesting people.
If you don't think Japan is culturally very different than The US or UK then I don't think this is a conversation worth having.
Posted by: kzt Feb 6 2014, 04:15 AM
That way we don't need to hire demographers to speculate about what would "realistically" happen if a nation of Native American hipsters with real magic powers decided to revolt and form their own nation-state in the wake of the collapse of the USA.
Then play SR1. Have fun. The mechanics are totally broken due to thing like nobody involved understanding basic statistics, but it has lots of "flair".
Posted by: Curator Feb 6 2014, 05:23 AM
we just need to wait for more books to come out. it's a lot more fun to fill the universe with rich details instead of CFS invades Tir. Tir wins later. they're obviously in a transformation point right now.. they still need to re-write and publish a whole bunch of rules. i'm excited for it.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 6 2014, 05:54 AM
Well I also enjoy good gameplay. So for me in my ideal world I'd run some kind of SR3R ruleset in the SR1 setting, if that makes sense.
Posted by: Sponge Feb 6 2014, 06:18 AM
I've been asking that first question question myself, since I bought SR5, but in the end for me is there's more good than bad in it (and eventually I'll get around to reworking the bad more to my taste).
As for writing my own global-level fluff, that's part of the fun IMO. I like fluff books like SR4's Vice and Corporate Guide, books that have broadly applicable background info that doesn't really change much over time and plenty of plot hook ideas. But you're referring more to the metaplot and scenario books, I stay away from those. (I do own Emergence, but I didn't realize exactly what I was getting at the time.)
Posted by: RHat Feb 6 2014, 06:40 AM
That's sort of my point - I'm not truly surprised by the idea of doing one first, than the other because attempting to build and tear at the same time can become untenable (saying this without commenting on it being good or bad). Storm Front, really, finished up with the tear down.
Posted by: kzt Feb 6 2014, 07:27 AM
We'll see. I'm expecting that CGL thinks we really need more major seaports located hundreds of kilometers inland at 8300 feet in the Andies. Then maybe some huge metaplots due to machinations of the powerful Antarctic Citrus Growers Association and the Islamic Pork Producers, with some shadowruns due to the the centuries long rivalry between the famous whiskey distilleries of Mecca.
Posted by: Cain Feb 6 2014, 08:41 AM
That's because it's not our job to write the setting. Writers are supposed to do that. We're fans, and our job is to have fun. If what the writers are producing isn't fun anymore, we will move on.
Posted by: DMiller Feb 6 2014, 08:44 AM
Trust me, the ACGA is no joke. They are an exclusive if reclusive group. Going up against them is bad ju-ju. Anyone who has ever been beaten with a sack full of (frozen) oranges can tell you, it’s no fun. And don’t even get me started on the (frozen) pineapple treatment.
Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 6 2014, 09:17 AM
And it won't leave a mark
.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 6 2014, 10:29 AM
Reading the review of Book of Erotic Fantasy. Something made me chuckle.
I always knew Seattle was a special town.
If I ever run a Shadowrun again, the 'runners will be hired to intimidate the Seattle LARPer community to prevent them from posing for a latter day Book of Erotic Fantasy. They'll be hired by WotC who desperately wants plausible deniability.
Posted by: sk8bcn Feb 6 2014, 12:29 PM
Then again, and I agree that this was possibly an oversight of the writers was to describe how the climate and geography of the world changed when para-critters became an actual thing.
I mean, what kind of vermin control can you have against a 15 feet tall armadillo on steroids?
VITAS, war and hunger made a damn good job in culling human population.
Anyway, just my two
on the whole thing.I'd love writters to smash up a bit the NAN and get a good part of it re-integrated to UCAS or CAS. Because, honestly, I'm reading NAN Part 1 and 2 atm, and godamn, it sucks and makes no sense.
And i really understand the pain in the ass for a written to continue such background developments with those basis.
(unless that writter wrote WAR, he must be confortable with stupid settings)
Posted by: Sponge Feb 6 2014, 01:57 PM
What a long way we've come since AD&D 1st Ed.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 6 2014, 01:58 PM
Well, some of the poorest or or failing Native-American Nations got integrated into others (Ute was merged into Pueblo, I think?)
And I'm ok with the NaN for starters. Hell, Magic was an unknown quantity back then and largely disbelieved by the American Government. I do find silly the whole secession thing of North vs South and perhaps that division was indeed what prevented the U.S of taking control of much of the land they had lost during the civil war.
Posted by: Warlordtheft Feb 6 2014, 02:45 PM
And I'm ok with the NaN for starters. Hell, Magic was an unknown quantity back then and largely disbelieved by the American Government. I do find silly the whole secession thing of North vs South and perhaps that division was indeed what prevented the U.S of taking control of much of the land they had lost during the civil war.
Yes Peublo annexed the Ute nation, Tsishman (spelling) was annexed by the Salish (or occupied after MCT left the country a giant strip mine). The Sioux are anti-UCAS, though they will work with the Other NAN. The former Canadaian provencies in the NAN are pretty much low population in RL anyway (a canadian can check me on this but isn't like 70+% of the population within 100 miles of the US border.
I always liked the NAN--they seem to have been ignored in SR4 though. I think Shadows of North America explained it best. As long as you had an once of Indian blood, we're married to an indian, we're hispanic, and in some places if you were Meta you'd be allowed to stay as well (cascade crow, sinsearch for example). Once you did that and take into account that these states are not the most heavily populated in the US (alot of it is federally owned land) it might make sense for the US in the face of magically induced weather disasters to just say screw it we're done its yours.
Could the UCAS take it back? Maybe, but genocide is bad PR and the other choice (a long term guerrila war) disuade the UCAS from going down that route. The CAS split is kind of emblematic of that, when it happened the UCAS just shrugged and let it happen. They were done fighting for the old USA, so what is loss of another portion of the country that we care little about and have little in common with.
Cal Free was just California looking at its situation and thought (wrongly) that joining the secessionist club would be better for them as well. Again, the UCAS just shrugged and decided at the time it was not worth the effort.
Does it make sense from our 2014 perspective? Not really, but by 2014 SR, international corporations had extraterritorality as well. One could even see these early mega corps purposely dividing the US to gain power.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 6 2014, 03:50 PM
P2.0 just doesn't make any sense whatsoever, imo.
I'm not getting the whole NAN hatred going on. The NAN don't make particular sense? Does corporate extraterritoriality? What about the concept of shadowrunners? The NAN serve their plot mission - they provide a political counter-balance to the UCAS, the CAS and Atzlan; they serve as an alternative to the techno-dystopia of the default Seattle setting, etc. So I can't see how they're worse than That Other Tir, Bretonia, half the AGS states, Awakened Yakut, etc.
Posted by: kzt Feb 6 2014, 10:43 PM
Posted by: RHat Feb 6 2014, 10:52 PM
Is it bad that all I'm thinking here is "damn, that would take some pretty serious excavation and one crazy nautical elevator" and "that would be some seriously impressive hydroponics"?
As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are some pretty serious places of power in the Andean region...
Posted by: Cain Feb 7 2014, 02:21 AM
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. But speaking as somebody who played D&D during that time, the goal of having fun with friends hasn't changed. If you mean we were expected to do all the worldbuilding ourselves. you miss the fact that there's been published settings as far back as I can remember.
Also, you don't buy Shadowrun for the rules. One of the great innovations of Shadowrun was that it came with an integral setting that was intertwined with the rules. Until then, the tendency had been for generic settings with well-developed rules (or occasionally, the reverse). The idea of integrated rules and setting was fairly revolutionary in its time. Same's true with metaplot: Shadowrun was really the pioneer in that area, and White Wolf copied a lot of what Shadowrun developed.
So yeah: If Shadowrun fails to deliver in the areas it used to be known for, people are going to lose interest.
Posted by: sk8bcn Feb 7 2014, 10:31 AM
I'd add to that: I'm able to create my own metaplots but if a game enforce me to do so, I usually won't buy their books anymore.
Let's take an exemple: Let's say I decide to make a plot were Tir invades Seattle and generate a war between UCAS and Tir. And my new Seattle is an invaded one with runners beeing resistants.
Why would I buy a new Seattle Sourcebook?
As soon as I vastly differ from official storyline and vastly shake up the grounds of the game, I stop buying the plotbooks.
That's why I think a RPG-compagny should keep his game-storyline evolving or offering new plots.
Posted by: Rasumichin Feb 8 2014, 05:49 PM
The problem here being that recent editions had much less of a focus on fleshing out the setting and metaplot.
I mean, just take a look at the publishing schedule for SR2. It took forever until the 2nd edition of Virtual Realities came out, we didn't get a new edition of the Rigger Black Book until SR3, we just kept using stuff like 1st ed RBB, Shadowtech and PAoNA with pencilled-in SR2 stats because we simply had to.
Meanwhile, FASA kept shelling out fluffy tie-ins to Earthdawn like the Tir and Atztlan books and blew our minds with Bug City which had been built to over years with the Universal Brotherhood arc, Queen Euphoria and several novels.
Compare that with how RPGs work today. Edition cycles are much shorter, and the top priority after a new edition hits is to sell as many crunchy bits as possible. The fluffy parts are something you use inbetween gun and vehicle pdfs to milk the edition a bit more while you prepare the next one.
Not that I blame CGL for handling things this way. Metaplot heavyness definitely makes an RPG less accessible for newcomers who haven't been following the game for the last two decades. Almost all of the stuff in the Tir books was only usable as inside jokes for the GM and never showed up in our games. Running a traditional Bug City campaign with spirits as powerful as they are in 4th ed would be suicidal for anyone except the most experienced characters.
It's understandable they've changed those parts of the setting.
The problem I'm having is more that the way they've handled things comes off as a compromise. I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just entirely reboot the setting, with the SR timeline diverging from the real world not in 1989, but in 2011 or 2012. Then again, we've seen how a total reboot of the metaplot worked out for WoD, so that's probably unwise from a business perspective.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 8 2014, 11:07 PM
I prefer setting books to metaplot books. Settings have useful information and adventure hooks, while metaplot contrivances only disrupt campaigns without really changing the status quo. I would rather see the setting evolve more naturally (a new power player is moving into CalFree, one of the megas is slipping while another one is on the rise, the Vory are making inroads into Denver at the expense of the Yakuza, etc.) than have all of these stupid BIG EVENTS (volcanic eruptions, matrix crashes, etc.), which lose their impact because they are happening all the time.
Posted by: Cain Feb 9 2014, 08:57 AM
While I certainly see your point, the BIG EVENTS are what make things memorable. We're still talking about Dunkelzahn's will, even though it came out 17 years ago (and even longer, in game time). The death of Fuchi, even though it was as much a worldshaker as the will, isn't remembered nearly as much even though it came about through a natural evolution of the storyline.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 9 2014, 09:14 AM
There are a few large events that are pretty air-tight - that is, they don't affect the parts of the setting you don't want them to affect. Like the UB plotline, the Far Scholar will, even the superAI showdown. It's not like many campaigns depended on Renraku Arcology staying as it was.
Posted by: Nath Feb 9 2014, 09:32 PM
As an event, the will is pretty dull (unlike the assassination). I don't know anyone who played a game set on the day it was read (though I admit I drafted one related to Miles Lanier departure from Fuchi, that I never had the opportunity to play). What it did was conveying a large number of information, hints, and hooks on many other topics out of context to us, gamemasters. I think we remember it primarily because so many events that came after had the label "This event was brought to you by Dunkelzahn's Will™". People even came to believe that the will was the cause for every event that happened in the following years, though some actually aren't, or are so thinly related that people couldn't tell what the chain of events was.
The breakup of Fuchi Industrial Electronics, on the other hand, was supposed to be a major event. But Blood in the Boardroom did not do a very good job to translate the events of the Corporate War into actual game content (which, to be fair, was more difficult than it may look). As far as the book goes, going through Fuchi breakup is fighting a vampire to the control of a black clinic in the middle of Pueblo nowhere. Also, BitB came out while the people already had their hands full with Bug City and Dunkelzahn's Will items, at the same time than Renraku arcology shutdown and the third edition.
Posted by: sk8bcn Feb 10 2014, 10:49 AM
That's a critic that is more about how they are executed rather than metaplot book/setting book.
If you had a book describing Tir Taingire, a change of governement and what evolves under a number of years, and how to use that for your PC and involves them, to me it's a metaplot book and setting book.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 10 2014, 03:23 PM
I think that's one thing that potentially is slowing the Shadowrun universe down, if not damaging it outright. Making a lot of inside joke-like references to a system that even fewer people have heard about than Shadowrun is just going to make some of the events of SR look dumb. I personally have never seen or heard of the game outside of these message boards, actually, and I had honestly thought that the game had died off because of that.
I mean, it might be "hip" and "cool" to tie in a game to another system, but all that ends up happening is that some of the older gaming-hipsters can speculate about the inside jokes. It does very little for the actual setting.
Posted by: sk8bcn Feb 10 2014, 04:14 PM
Tough back then, they had a long term plan with where they wanted their storyline to go.
I mean, we somehow knew/tought they wanted to move to a fight/struggle against the incomming horrors. I don't think it was the ED/Sr ties that mattered but the ability FASA had to instill elements for the future.
Posted by: Not of this World Feb 11 2014, 05:24 AM
Sum it up as setting reboots are generally a bad idea. I'm not sure what happened at Fanpro to make them think this was a good idea.
Hopefully CGL makes the 5th edition setting more and more old school till we forget 4th edition ever happened. Otherwise I'll just keep playing Shadowrun Returns and loving that 4th edition never happened.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 11 2014, 08:00 AM
Posted by: Kuma Feb 11 2014, 08:20 AM
I find it very interesting that people are talking at several points in this as if its Cyberpunk that in its death throes, not just Shadowrun. It strikes me as odd: for the first time in decades, you've had several major properties with cyberpunk tie-ins (Cyberpunk 2077, Dues Ex, the shadowrun games). Its not as if cyberpunk is over the heads of the modern youth. We actually have many of the predicted aspects of cyberpunk (massive corps, ipads and such, increasing drug use[though we're not at Vurt options yet], the increased focus on lack of meaning, hell, even the nihilism of modern wub-dub music). If you don't think high school age kids can get into cyberpunk, who do you think Snow Crash was written for?
Anyway, to actually add to the topic: Biggest problem with cyberpunk is that to modernize, it must either come back to its roots(much like shadowrun 5th seems to have, focused on a retrofuturist approach ala steampunk), or it much begin to refocus on its social commentary. Shadowrun was poignant when it focused on racism, class warfare, revolution and the loss of humanity. Some of the issues it takes about are kinda dead: I'm not gonna say racism is dead, but its not as common a threat as 25 years ago. The south is very unlikely to rebel now, really for any reason. Japan isn't the threat it once seemed to be.
Modernize your enemies. China is the new bogey man, so have someone actually put together a competent threat out of Wuxing. What if they ate up massive chunks of Aries? Put together a nation state that can hang with the corps. The last nation state that tried (amazonia) got destroyed. Shake up the big ten (though that seems to be in the works already). Use these issues to confront the fears and threats of modern society. Horizon was a great step towards that, even if they ended up being just mind control people. They're the perfect option to build a facebook profile that knows everything you do, so much you never make a choice. It thinks you really want sushi for dinner, and you become so certain that the machine knows you that it really just runs you, from childhood to the grave. Its not mind control, its social engineering of the highest level.
I don't think its a dying setting, I think the setting lacks new blood in the writing pool. Young isn't always better, but I think becoming less tied into the cyberpunk ritual icons might help. Focus on the new things that have those influences (Portal anyone?), and try to guess what people will love.
Oh, and talking about inside references: Shadowrun isn't accessible because the core book is 60 bucks, and could be used to defend yourself against a drunken version of The Rock. If you've made it past those hurdles, a few in jokes and side references don't mean much. In the same way the 40k games assume some background references are there to be followed, some open plot threads to the 4th age can be excused if its cool enough.
Posted by: Blade Feb 11 2014, 11:05 AM
Shadowrun has a long history, and it started in the 80s, with a strong 80s vibe. It has then evolved along the years, with different writers. Some of them kept to the original tone (or what they felt was the original tone) while others tried to adapt the setting to the RL world.
Then some writers got something that was a mix of both, and decided to keep it vague enough to allow both to co-exist (the "pink mohawk and black trenchcoat"). While it allowed everyone to keep their vision of Shadowrun, it also diluted the setting.
So the writers have the choice between forcing their vision and disappointing all those who don't share it, or doing something that won't have too much flavor but should fit everyone.
Neither are good options and that's why I'm pushing for a third: splitting Shadowrun into three lines. One would be 80s cyberpunk (Shadowrun 2050), another would be GiTS post-cyberpunk (Shadowrun 2070) and the third would be more techno-thriller (Shadowrun 2035). In order to please most players, each would probably need to offer both low and high level playstyle.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 11 2014, 11:39 AM
The PPC could be used to represent the resurgent China and wider Asia, but that plotline too was driven into the ground.
I'm not sure Horizon is changing much - I mean, megacorps already decide what's best for their wageslaves, and unless we take that absurdist bit with P2.0, the runners have zero reasons to let a corp on to them.
Also, what about Portal? Unless you want to add a literal portal gun, corp experiments on metahumans are a thing since the very beginning of the setting.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 11 2014, 03:33 PM
I actually thought SR4 was an excellent move forward. The introduction to wifi was refreshing and kept the setting relevant.
40k can have all the references it wants - they're all self-contained in the 40k system. The inside jokes that SR is trying to run is bridging the gap between two different games. That's a very big difference.
The PPC could be used to represent the resurgent China and wider Asia, but that plotline too was driven into the ground.
I'm not sure Horizon is changing much - I mean, megacorps already decide what's best for their wageslaves, and unless we take that absurdist bit with P2.0, the runners have zero reasons to let a corp on to them.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/31/inside-china-nuclear-submarines-capable-of-widespr/?page=all Whether or not they are credible is debatable, but I'm sure if we give them another 50 or so years they may get something right.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 11 2014, 03:41 PM
I completely agree with that sentiment.
Posted by: kzt Feb 11 2014, 06:16 PM
In general, yes. The computer rules didn't work, but they never have worked in any edition. However the issue grows in significance as you can now expect that any new gamer picking up the setting has at least some reasonable idea about how the internet appears to work, and SR computers are something totally out in left field, based on what some dude who had never used a computer wrote on his mechanical typewriter in 1984.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 11 2014, 09:17 PM
I think the main goal of the setting should be to explain how shadowrunners continue to exist (Runner's Companion did a good job of explaining data balkanization and the glut of information, as well as hackers planting false information - I think the bit about RFID's in candy bars was imbecilic, though). With a world where large parts of it, including former first world nations, are like crime-ridden, corrupt third world nations; where other parts of it are wildlands populated by fantastical beasts; and where the pockets of civilization have unreliable databases and multiple corporations (and a few other players) working against each other. They have lost track of this sometimes, both early on (with the Tirs and JIS being police states all but impossible to run in) and later (emphasizing omnipresent surveillance to the point that the very existence of shadowrunners does not seem viable - or seems like too much work for what is supposed to be a fun game).
I don't think that keeping the setting trapped in the 80's is a good idea, though, even for pink mohawk-style players (who are just as likely to not like having cyberdecks reintroduced). The setting needs to continue to evolve, with less contrive mini-apocalypses and more logical development of the existing factions and plots. I think the real world needs to influence this development, but not to the extent of re-writing Shadowrun's history - Shadowrun should be considered not only a near-future setting, but a near-future alternate reality setting.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 11 2014, 09:17 PM
Double Post.
Posted by: shonen_mask Feb 11 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe that the drift towards PC is to be capable of casting a larger net to try and bring newer players. Then again, this might allienate the old ones.
I mean, Shadowrun Online is coming. How many of you believe that the game will be PG-13? I do. Because if the game was to show the violence, despair and horror of a true dystopia, they would lose all the potential high school kids as clients.
Another thing possibly unrelated, but I've heard stories that pen and paper RPG has becoming more and more niche (than what used to be, exactly because of the rise of MMOs), don't know how true this is.
They would loose all the audience who have no concept of horror, dystopia and despair.....
Who by the way is the majority of the potential media consumers.
Besides, roleplaying games are designed as empty canvases where palying groups propose an abstract to their game motives and build their story.
There is nothing stopping a person from designing a perfectly acceptable game world and playing within it and defining the rules of that world how they wish...
Mass appeal sells a game;
But uniqueness, creativity and support of thoes efforts by the published ruleset makes it legendary...
Posted by: CanRay Feb 12 2014, 12:34 AM
It wasn't the Wi-Fi issues with SR4 that had me wondering "WTF happened to Shadowrun", but the Transhumanism and "Hug-A-Ghoul" attempts. Despite including current-day profanity, it felt more... Child-Friendly than old skool Shadowrun.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 12 2014, 01:40 AM
Wi-Fi was present in 3E (reading Sprawl Survival Guide just now). Ghoul rights fighters existed even before that.
As for transhumanism, what exactly changed in the fourth about it?
Posted by: Neraph Feb 12 2014, 03:40 AM
Yeah, if you switch out the current-day profanity for the 6th World profanity it would simply be the standard evolution of what a decade would bring.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 12 2014, 06:52 AM
As for transhumanism, what exactly changed in the fourth about it?
The Ghoul-Rights fights were around for awhile in Shadowrun, I freely admit and even admire. But it just seemed to pushed forward into the "Ghouls are people too", including all Ghouls, including the feral ones. Might just be my imagination.
Transhumanism, well, it just seemed that things were moving away from Cyberpunk and going towards shiny-happy thoughts and taking the dys out of dystopia. Again, might just be me.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 12 2014, 06:59 AM
I think there was a meta-plot thingie where infected turned more feral - I think the pro-vampire/ghoul thing was getting to much for some of the writers.
I haven't found Shadowrun less dystopic - it never really was, which I actually found to be one of its strengths. Look at SR1 and see how things like Lone Star cops and security guards were humanized in their descriptions, rather than being one-dimensional jackbooted thugs. What I do miss is some of that wild west feel that the setting used to have - the surveillance state aspect of the game is too prominent, now. I miss shenanigans like that old picture of those gangers joy-riding a Lone Star APC with a hapless Lone Star officer tied upside-down to the hood.
Posted by: Moirdryd Feb 12 2014, 10:32 AM
I've been having a think on this one and I think I've spotted where a few things have shifted than can easily be utilised to keep that "old SR universe" feeling we keep talking of.
Now, bare in mind I've never touched SR4 after an initial attempt to like it. So I could be wrong here.
It seems that what we have is not so much now the "future" of the 2000's instead of the 80's which in itself imparts a different flavour. But what we have is a setting that is now often Percieved through the Corporate or Glitterazi lense (even if it's not written from that angle). Why do I say this? Because everything "works" things fit together in certain ways and if something goes awry its fixed pretty quick because heavens forbid the contract is ever screwed up. That's how a lot of the sixth world is shown to be, or alluded to as (even when the odd commentary to the opposite is thrown in.)
The truth of the Sixth World (and certainly the one I run) is less shiny. Almost everything that happens at a mass consumer level is going to be done as cheaply as possible. Omnipresent Big Brother? Yeah it's kind of there, but it doesn't really work, because it's mostly an advertising tool and marketing data collector than any security facility. Even when it does do the anti criminal aspect there's still all that extraterritorial jurisdiction happening, corporate squabbles intersecting the Law Agencies and Security services. Those cameras probably don't work all if the time (just like some real life CCTV systems I've seen over the years) and even when they do, well, priority response proceedures for KE and the Star etc may or may not include an immediate (or even quick) response and depending on situation, people involved and so forth, follow up may be lacking. Because the truth is under the shiny chrome covers, the massively enticing media campaigns and the safe and certified communities of corp culture, a lot of the time it all Doesn't work, not altogether and not at the same time.
The System looks Pretty, it looks SOTA and everyone is told how impregnable and perfect it is and for the most part people believe it. They are told they are in a free and apply world where their Rights and Liberties are protected by a System that sees all and that this is a good thing and because they've grown up with it, been indoctrinated with it they've never really challenged it.
The System is imperfect. Omniescient is a goal not a reality. There are Loopholes, Blindspots, Cracks and Flaws waiting to be exploited because most of the time (like 99.9%) the System works well enough. It does okay and any big flaws are rapidly brushed aside in a media blip and maybe a little effort spent in an overhaul and investigation. But that's a far cry from impregnable. There are those who survive outside the System or exploit the odd flaw to get away with things, these are the SINless or the Gangs that prowl the Streets and Highways, they tend to get by because the System doesn't typically care about them or their activities (unless they stray into the better security areas, or the month's arrest quota needs topping up or the Corp needs some Metahuman test subjects that no one will miss). So to the people that live IN the System the system still works most of the time.
Then you have those who do more than "survive" they actively thrive in the flaws of the System. They use it's corruption, greed, vices of the people and just plain failings or vulnerabilities of the tech to prosper in the Sixth World (re: Organised Crime groups etc). They almost become Part of the System while breaking most of its rules and getting away with it while sacrificing the occasional pawn (or pinning it on a rival scapegoat). These groups thrive in this way of extorted power and often bloody rivalry covered by a civil veneer that is markedly to the Corporations they exist within and without the System of.
Finally you have those talented few, numbering something like .01% of any major population, probably less. They don't just survive (though plenty start that way) and sometimes they don't thrive. But what they do is rare. They utterly exploit every failing the System has. They operate, learn and grow in the imperfections of that perfect world the Megas tell their wageslaves they live in. They turn any aspect of the Sixth World into an advantage they can use (or they die) and the brighter the Media Glow the deeper the Shadows. These are the Shadowrunners....
Posted by: Sengir Feb 12 2014, 01:49 PM
Being recognized as a person is not what it used to be, anyway...you know, SINless squatters are also people.
Posted by: shonen_mask Feb 12 2014, 03:34 PM
I don't think that keeping the setting trapped in the 80's is a good idea, though, even for pink mohawk-style players (who are just as likely to not like having cyberdecks reintroduced). The setting needs to continue to evolve, with less contrive mini-apocalypses and more logical development of the existing factions and plots. I think the real world needs to influence this development, but not to the extent of re-writing Shadowrun's history - Shadowrun should be considered not only a near-future setting, but a near-future alternate reality setting.
If there is a real world development process applied the goal would be two things and only thoes two;
Sell as many units as possible.
Producea newer version as often as possible.
The setting is wide enough for anyone to fill a story twists and turns, intregue and segways to other plots. What you don't want is a system that every two years or so, obsoletes your efforts to build a playable game framework....
Plus, I see plenty of people supporting D&D pathfinder, 3rd.ed, 4th ed, and now 5th ed.....
Does the mass production style make thoes games more enjoyable and the chatacters more enjoyable than Shadowrun? It must since I rarely see support for anything else around the playing tables.....
Game of Thrones? Really??
Posted by: Sponge Feb 12 2014, 05:30 PM
The System looks Pretty, it looks SOTA and everyone is told how impregnable and perfect it is and for the most part people believe it. They are told they are in a free and apply world where their Rights and Liberties are protected by a System that sees all and that this is a good thing and because they've grown up with it, been indoctrinated with it they've never really challenged it.
The System is imperfect. Omniescient is a goal not a reality. There are Loopholes, Blindspots, Cracks and Flaws waiting to be exploited because most of the time (like 99.9%) the System works well enough. It does okay and any big flaws are rapidly brushed aside in a media blip and maybe a little effort spent in an overhaul and investigation. But that's a far cry from impregnable. There are those who survive outside the System or exploit the odd flaw to get away with things, these are the SINless or the Gangs that prowl the Streets and Highways, they tend to get by because the System doesn't typically care about them or their activities (unless they stray into the better security areas, or the month's arrest quota needs topping up or the Corp needs some Metahuman test subjects that no one will miss). So to the people that live IN the System the system still works most of the time.
This is actually already SR4 as written, pretty much.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 12 2014, 08:40 PM
Glad that I wasn't the only one who thought that.
Posted by: Moirdryd Feb 12 2014, 10:15 PM
Cool enough then I suppose. It's just how I have always seen things. The original SR4 material I was exposed to was just bland to me compared to the style of SR2-3. Sr5 hasn't had the chance to develope the it's style yet, but I hope it's more of what I've postulated.
Posted by: Cain Feb 13 2014, 09:33 AM
I actually didn't like the jump to an all-wifi matrix. Leaving aside the many rule issues, the Shadowrun Matrix was a bold, iconic view of the future. Like Star Trek, it might not age well, but it was a classic. But all of a sudden, that classic view of the future was replaced with a boring view of the present. We weren't given any really cool future tech to play with, we were given advanced cellphones and google glasses.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 13 2014, 09:36 AM
Otherwise, sure, you're right, 4e massively reduced the focus on the dregs of society, and all but removed the characteristic feelings of day to day hopelessness, fight against the system and community associated.
Posted by: tjn Feb 13 2014, 11:50 AM
I feel that it was something of either a failure of imagination or a failure at communication.
Because when I think AR I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmjqudbf_RE
What SR described, I felt, was akin to "you have a constant connection to the matrix overlaid in your vision and there's like spam zones, and they're like bad and stuff."
AR has all the potential of being just as much of a classic view of the future in a similar manner to the way Gibson portrayed cyberspace, but different in ways so that it could accentuate current modern day fears of corporatization, social networks, virtual lives and the consequences of always being connected, privacy and surveillance concerns, big data or any thing else the developers wanted to explore. The metaphor for what AR could represent was not fully explored... so it ended up just being a button for the PCs to push to get information. Which... sucks.
The advantage of using Gibson's cyberspace is that Gibson already did all the heavy working on how to evoke cyberspace. AR needed that same groundwork laid because it's a new concept and couldn't just rest on what had came before, but I felt it never got it.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2014, 03:05 PM
To be fair, Wi-Fi was not global and all-encompassing. Wired systems are still out there.
Posted by: Fatum Feb 13 2014, 04:41 PM
In 4e, most serious systems are still wired. A few can have much more than one host, too.
Matrix backbone is all wires, too.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2014, 05:03 PM
Matrix backbone is all wires, too.
Yes Indeed... Pretty much how we see it too.
Posted by: Not of this World Feb 13 2014, 05:38 PM
I do not know what 4th edition rulebook you read (I never read the anniversary edition) but when I read 4th the default assumption was that everything was now suddenly wi-fi (which is not incredibly futuristic or realistic).
As for the setting changes. A theme of cyberpunk is that as society focuses on things other than itself, then society decays and crime and prejudice become more prevalent. In Transhumanism it is the opposite, as bodies become customizable then our physical differences and prejudices are supposed to disappear.
The other part that bothers me is the loss of high fantasy motifs. Cyberpunk is amoral or morally shades of grey, but High Fantasy is very black and white. In 1st through 3rd this was represented in spiritual ideals such as Totemic principles and Karma rewards for good moral choices on the "white" side versus "black" threats such as Horrors, Toxic spirits, blood magic, vampiric cabals, and insect totems. 4th edition kind of wiped all that out. Now you have the amoral or shades of grey and you are all just cogs in the machine with no hope of changing it.
You don't have to play the black vs. white fantasy plots, but a lot of players liked it.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2014, 06:39 PM
You don't have to play the black vs. white fantasy plots, but a lot of players liked it.
See, I have never seen High Fantasy Morality being prevalent, even in the Editions of Shadowrun you espouse as such. Shadowrun has always been amoral to me, with thousands of shades of Grey. Which his VERY Cyperpunk.
Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 13 2014, 06:50 PM
SR5 actually mentiones in the rules that GM's should dock Karma for "evil" choices made by characters and dock money for "good" choices made by characters as far as i remember . .
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2014, 06:54 PM
Dock money for Moral Choices and Karma for Immoral Choices. Truly? That is just stupid on so many levels. *shakes head*
Posted by: Glyph Feb 13 2014, 07:40 PM
I blame D&D and its pigeonholed alignment system, rather than high fantasy itself, for black-and-white morality. Conan the barbarian was a complex, grey-hat character if there ever was one. Even Lord of the Rings had moral ambiguity and complexity, with distrust between dwarves and elves, characters like Boromir who do bad things but redeem themselves, good characters like Saruman or Denethor who tragically fall but still retain some of their nobility, distrust between the elves and the dwarves even in the face of a common threat, a sympathetic villain in gollum, a hero who has feet of clay in the end, despite being one of the more morally upright characters, in Frodo, and so on.
Shadowrun has always seemed to emphasize a more noir morality - not in a sense of everything being muddled gray, but in the sense that people may try to do good things, but often wind up doing bad things, or having to choose the lesser of two evils, or having to make significant sacrifices to do the right thing, or even succumbing to their flaws and weaknesses in the end. But I don't think the game is amoral (although it can be played that way, just as it can be played with a more Manichean view of good and evil). Characters still have, and struggle with, morality, they just don't all conveniently fit into "good" and "evil" categories.
Posted by: Sendaz Feb 13 2014, 08:36 PM
Standard run 0% (nothing special, normal work for a runner)
Run will make you a cold-hearted bastard +10-20% (wetwork, helping corps oppress people, drug running, human trafficking)
Run has good feelings as part of its reward –10-20% (hooding, helping the little guy, taking some “dys” out of “dystopia”)
KARMA MODIFIERS
Standard run 0
Cold-hearted bastard run –2
Good feelings run +2
To compensate such good deeds and crap pay he grants increased karma.
Likewise the hard core jobs do tend to pay out more and since you are operating with less restrictions one could argue it probably was not as hard a job compared to a job requiring more restraint, hence more cash but less Karma.
Again these are just examples and the modifiers are just suggestions for the GM when he is trying to figure out rewards for missions...
Posted by: psychophipps Feb 13 2014, 08:50 PM
The path to Hell is paved with good intentions...
Posted by: Sendaz Feb 13 2014, 08:52 PM
Good Grrls go to Heaven, Bad Grrls go Everywhere Else.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 13 2014, 09:15 PM
It depends, the GM may say that the 'good' run might pay out less cashwise since odds favour they are working for a party who can not pay a lot, the aforementioned little guy who they decided to take the job for more because it was the right thing to do then because of the paycheck.
To compensate such good deeds and crap pay he grants increased karma.
Likewise the hard core jobs do tend to pay out more and since you are operating with less restrictions one could argue it probably was not as hard a job compared to a job requiring more restraint, hence more cash but less Karma.
Again these are just examples and the modifiers are just suggestions for the GM when he is trying to figure out rewards for missions...
Just Dumb... *sigh*
Posted by: Fatum Feb 13 2014, 09:25 PM
As for it being neither futuristic nor realistic, heh, well it is both. I mean, we've overwhelmingly moved on from wired connections - more smartphones and pad computers are sold yearly by far than good old full-sized PCs, and most of the stuff sold doesn't even have an RJ-45 jack.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 14 2014, 01:07 AM
Makes sense. The Johnson doesn't want collateral so he docks you 1k per body you leave. My table and a friend's table have both done this before.
Alternatively you could get a Johnson that wants chaos and gives a 1k bonus per body...
Same. I like to play the character that, in the world of greys, is known to be evil. Nosferatu mystic adept who's tradition is Black Magic and who is an expert at Calling in order to use Inhabitation spirits while attempting to build an Infected army?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2014, 03:01 PM
That is the reverse, however. That is not a moral choice at that point, it is a mission parameter.
Unlimited Powah...
My evil is a bit more subtle than that, but I do understand the idea.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 14 2014, 04:13 PM
My evil is a bit more subtle than that, but I do understand the idea.
Actually, when the character finally made it to a table he was the drone rigger support. Tricked out commlink running a TacNet and remote control rigging. Anyone with enough money can serve as a good rigger. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCr7y4SLhck&t=1m43s.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2014, 04:20 PM
My Cyberlogician was Rigger Support as well. Though, he actually WAS a good guy (well, not evil anyway...
). Well... he worked for HKSB (as a deep cover shadowrunner) cleaning up the dregs of the Shadowrunning Community anyways - so Good Guy from the Average Citizen's perspective at least.
Posted by: Neraph Feb 14 2014, 05:37 PM
). Well... he worked for HKSB (as a deep cover shadowrunner) cleaning up the dregs of the Shadowrunning Community anyways - so Good Guy from the Average Citizen's perspective at least. He was... Light Grey.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 14 2014, 06:01 PM
That's it... Light Grey.
Posted by: Cain Feb 15 2014, 06:42 AM
I just got home from a lecture on multimedia and AR. Yes, it's looking like we're going that way soon, especially since they demonstrated a couple of modern-day applications. However, what made the Shadowrun Matrix iconic was that it wasn't realistic, it was pure sci-fi. No one complains about the lack of cellphones in Star Wars, even though it's supposed to be a scientifically-advanced setting. Same with Star Trek, they still use essentially a 60's tech base.
Shadowrun stood out, back in the day, because it was a bold setting. It made a lot of assumptions, many of which didn't turn out, but were very daring nonetheless. Ever since then, the boldness has trended downhill, in favor of boring modernism.
As for the Alignment mentality: in the early days, it was assumed that shadowrunners were anti-corporate, against-the-man-types, by default. Moving away from this might be more realistic, but it's also less original, and started to make Shadowrun more into a heist setting.
Posted by: Shortstraw Feb 15 2014, 06:50 AM
But everyone knows that the force interferes with wireless signals...
Posted by: RHat Feb 15 2014, 09:53 AM
That might be because they have communication systems that are way better than cell phones...
Posted by: nezumi Feb 15 2014, 01:14 PM
Star Wars wasn't sci-fi, it's fantasy. But yeah, I think Cain is right. Shadowrun has transitioned from a strange and distant future to a competitor with D20 Modern. Again, probably why I play SR1-3, then jump to Eclipse Phase.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 15 2014, 04:19 PM
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Feb 15 2014, 04:54 PM
Indeed... I would take the Holonet over Cell Phone technology any day, and twice on Aldeberan's Sundays.
Although it is probably just as buggy and prone to signal loss. Baah... Give me a Hard-line. Way more reliable.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 15 2014, 05:36 PM
Snow Crash is a parody or satire of Cyberpunk rather than a member of the genre proper.
~J
Posted by: Smash Feb 15 2014, 09:23 PM
Shadowrun stood out, back in the day, because it was a bold setting. It made a lot of assumptions, many of which didn't turn out, but were very daring nonetheless. Ever since then, the boldness has trended downhill, in favor of boring modernism.
As for the Alignment mentality: in the early days, it was assumed that shadowrunners were anti-corporate, against-the-man-types, by default. Moving away from this might be more realistic, but it's also less original, and started to make Shadowrun more into a heist setting.
Couldn't agree more. Personally I steer my campaign back towards it's early incarnation as much as possible.
Posted by: nezumi Feb 16 2014, 01:33 PM
~J
I have not seen you post a thing in literally at least a year. Have you been lurking these forums for all that time just waiting for the chance to say that again?
Posted by: ElFenrir Feb 17 2014, 10:08 AM
I found using 1e/2e setting(with a bit of 3e settings; I basically really dig 2050-to about 2065), and 3e rules works best for us. We got the gang members driving the car down the street, the more old-school feeling dystopia, the little bits of hope scattered around, and overall we found this setup works best for us rather than the new heist-feel(not that we never did heists in the old days, sure, we did once in awhile.) We also played plenty of variety in the old days as well. At the end of the day the 1e-2e setting was our favorite, and the stuff that stuck with us, so that's where we run(and the 2e/3e ruleset our favorite of the bunch, despite it's flaws.)
Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 20 2014, 04:07 PM
Pure coincidence
I was around in August, though! That's only half a year.
~J
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)