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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ [SR5] Archetypes
Posted by: BreederofPuppets Feb 13 2014, 02:28 PM
Am I missing something? I was trying to re-build the street samurai archetype to see how they afforded the gear augmentation listed. However, I keep coming up with 5.2 essence loss, and a nuyen cost of 560,000. With priority A in resources, you get 450,000 nuyen, plus up to 20,000 more from Karma (totaling 490,000). Where did the other 70,000 come from?
Keep in mind, I have not totaled up the Street Samurai's weapons, ammunition, and gear. So he could easily have more than 100,000 Y in extra gear and augmentation. I figure I must have missed something. As the extra finacnes would seriously help out my current character, I would love to know what.
Posted by: Jack VII Feb 13 2014, 04:08 PM
Just a quick question: Is this your first time with Shadowrun?
The only reason I am asking is because it is a time-honored tradition for the character archetypes to always be (usually hilariously) wrong. No one really knows why this happens. There have been a lot of reasons given over the years (the characters are usually built semi-early in the process apparently and don't get adjusted for later changes). But this has been the case from 1st through 5th.
In other words, don't use them as a guide for chargen. I also believe there is a threadnaught with suggested fixes over on the CGL board.
Posted by: Critias Feb 13 2014, 04:49 PM
I'm not sure how you can say "no one really knows why this happens," and then in the very next sentence explain exactly why this consistently happens.
Yes, archetypes are screwed up. Yes, it tends to happen because they're built early in the process, before character generation has been completely nailed down. The same way that the playtest characters people used wouldn't be rules legal today, some of the archetypes don't add up. If folks knew how many changes got crammed in at the tail end of the process (in response to playtester notes, for instance), how many price changes happened at the 11th hour, how many priorities were tweaked one way or the other, etc, etc, I think the "why" of this would be very clear. It's compounded by the issue that the archetypes are made by multiple different people, some of whom are more "Johnny On The Spot" than others about making last minute revisions...and voila. You get some that are more effective than others, some that are more flavorful than others, some that match their artwork better than others, and also, yes, some that are more rules-legal than others.
Posted by: Jack VII Feb 13 2014, 05:06 PM
@Critias, The reason I say that is simply because we do basically know the reason (rule changes), but then the problem keeps occurring, even though there is a very long history of it occurring. Sure, I think we all get that the industry is apparently much worse than others when it comes to last minute decisions (imagine if the automotive manufacturing industry worked in this way), but it is still a known flaw and the designers know that those changes are likely to jack up something. We have 20 years of history to show that Archetypes are particularly vulnerable to this last minute tinkering.
Personally, I don't use the archetypes for anything other than art and a suggested gear and skills list, so it really doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to give the OP some context. I would also add that errors in the Archetypes are actually a fun little quirk to Shadowrun. I think I would quit the game if y'all released an edition where they were all correct.
Posted by: Bigity Feb 13 2014, 08:02 PM
I'm pretty sure I've seen Critias mention (though it could have been someone else- I'm not going back to the other forum to check) the starter box characters aren't rules legal either, each had something special added.
Basically, SR has a long standing tradition of the archetypes breaking the rules, and I would imagine it's not super high on the list of stuff to fix.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 13 2014, 08:06 PM
I can't judge SR5, but SR4 wasn't that bad, mistake-wise. A few things like uncouth charcters not being charged double for their social skills, a spirit bane quality that gave double the points it should have, a face with a limo she couldn't afford, a covert ops specialist with a gun she wasn't proficient in, etc. It seems a lot when you list it out, but spread out over all of the archetypes, it only adds up to the odd mistake here or there.
The playability of the archetypes is a bigger issue, though. They all at least resemble their purported function, but some, such as the bounty hunter, covert ops specialist, or weapons specialist, were all but unplayable. Judging by some of the comments I have heard, SR5 might have that problem with some of its archetypes as well.
Posted by: Critias Feb 13 2014, 08:43 PM
Basically, SR has a long standing tradition of the archetypes breaking the rules, and I would imagine it's not super high on the list of stuff to fix.
Yeah, that was me. I'm the one that wrote 'em all, so, yeah, I was the one that said as much over on the forums. Each of them started rules legal (painfully so, in some cases, as they were changed four or five or six times each, while we kept changing the rules), but then a decision was made to relax about that a little bit, and worry about making sure they were playable, and forgivingly so, for the folks buying those particular boxed sets. So they got tossed a bone here and there, a little better starting gear, a few extra skill points, or what-have-you.
Also, it's important to note that the dossier characters aren't all made with the full spectrum of rules available in the SR5 core game. Some of 'em had gear lists trimmed down to account for the limited selection in the starter boxes, and that sort of thing.
Posted by: Sendaz Feb 13 2014, 08:49 PM
And I do not see a problem with a prepackaged archetype getting a little leeway on the points, not unlike how some systems offer a package plan that grants a small discount on ability costs that correspond to the package.
Course a note should be left in the GM section alerting them that the premades will have a few variances so they don't drive themselves crazy trying to make new builds which don't quite match up to the premades or have players bugging them over same. 
Posted by: Bigity Feb 13 2014, 08:52 PM
Also, it's important to note that the dossier characters aren't all made with the full spectrum of rules available in the SR5 core game. Some of 'em had gear lists trimmed down to account for the limited selection in the starter boxes, and that sort of thing.
Yea it wasn't a complaint mind, just information. Especially in starter boxes, it's more important they work to explain the game/setting.
Though I'm curious if they would be allowed for Missions play.
Posted by: Chrome Head Feb 13 2014, 11:09 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but I had created pretty much the same thing before. Here's what I had found:
And here's a http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=39991&view=findpost&p=1269229.
Posted by: Redjack Feb 14 2014, 02:29 PM
The customer complaints about fitness of product due to the poor state of proofing/editing is a valid gripe. We understand it is a process. We simply are frustrated that it is not a priority for Catalyst.
Posted by: Smash Feb 15 2014, 09:36 PM
I've always taken them to just be example characters not necessarily example starting characters, albeit more useful if perhaps they were.
Is the Combat Mage supposed to be a changeling? He doesn't look particularly human
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