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Posted by: AlyW Jul 11 2015, 08:54 PM

I've a fair amount of exp. playing SR4, and have never played SR5. I am currently working my way through the SR5 core book, albeit slowly due to time constraints. So perhaps, could someone here give me a super-brief primer on what the big changes (if any?) between the two editions are?

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 11 2015, 09:17 PM

big Differences ?
1)
The Matrix
2)
WiFi Bonus on lots of Things that make no Sense (only to lure the Chars into getting Wireless)
3)
Skills go now up to 12 ( but not for starting Chars , they're stuck to 6 maximum)
4)
'ware is fucking expensive now ( up to 10x as expensive ) especially Ini-raising 'ware
5)
Limits everywhere
6)
Vehicle Rules are different
7)
Initiative is now like SR3
8 )
Hackers need Decks now and thus are called Decker (like SR3 ,also fucking expensive like in SR3, You'd better not loose it or you might as well make a new Char)
9)
TM's have turned into redhaired, freckled Stepkids
10)
You can attack only once per Iniphase
( Shooting in SA is still a simple action and you still have 2 simple actions per Iniphase but You can Attack only once !)
11)
Base Char Creation is the Priority system (similar to SR3) there is a Karma Creation in Run Faster and the Sum-To-Ten (my favorite System in SR5 now. More Flexible than Prio System and the Chars are generally a bit better than with the Karma System.) but no more BP-System !

But thats all !
That's the main difference
(some minor Points like Trolls are just as fast as Dwarfes now and the Movement Rules are now messed up
or SR5 misses most of the Weapon Mod Rules or extended Lifestyle Rules)
the rest is nearly Identical

Hough!
Medicineman

Posted by: hermit Jul 11 2015, 10:41 PM

1a) Hackers can now hack your things that they explode and burn. ALL THE THINGS, including cyberware. Unless you do not want WiFi boni.

2a) Without WiFi boni, a lot of items, such as smartlinks, are effectively worthless to have.

3a) ... but your successes are now capped by Limits derived from your attributes.

4a) ... and there's a new cyberware class called gammaware, which, greek alphabet be damned, is better than deltaware. It's also more expensive, but since delta is less expensive now, that kinda evens it out.

5) SR5 is SR4 that tries to be SR3.

6a) Most importantly, speed has been reduced to a flat number instead of m/combat turn. This is important for vehicle Limits, and since VCRs boost that, your sports car may accelerate way beyond the speed of sound now.

8a) With Data Trails (this editions Unwired) you can still hack with a commlink, kinda, but it's prohibitively expensive too. We're talking 200,000+

9a) An upcoming book has been announced that will kinda de-gimp them. We shall see.

10) A lot of equipment and qualities are missing for no good reason; converting characters may be very tough.

Posted by: Abschalten Jul 11 2015, 11:47 PM

Stick with SR4, and backport the handful of things that SR5 actually improves.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jul 12 2015, 01:15 AM

No love for SR5 I see, god I barely touched my SR4 books in years but its good knowing its not worth dolling out for the new edition.
Did they improve karma gen btw? after playing SRR and Dragonfall (the reason I returned to this board really) I find the SR4 system needlessly restrictive and overly costly

Posted by: Glyph Jul 12 2015, 01:53 AM

Karmagen (called Point Buy in SR5) is more restrictive and costly than the old version, with characters typically being more fine-tuned but significantly weaker than Priority builds.

My biggest pet peeve is that the costs for metavariants are completely different than they are in Priority. One example - elves cost 40 Karma, while dryads cost 90 karma; in Priority, they are exactly the same (and Priority has a mechanism of certain metatypes having an extra Karma cost to play them - so there is a mechanic they could have used if they thought dryads needed to be more expensive).

Posted by: Lionhearted Jul 12 2015, 02:01 AM

Wasnt always the benefit of karmagen over bp that you could spread out more while specialising was more expensive? seems counterintuitive... Unless Im misintepretating you

Posted by: Glyph Jul 12 2015, 04:08 AM

Theoretically, this was true, but Karmagen gave you enough points that even in its most stringent iteration (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills), it usually gave you better value than build points even for optimized builds (meaning some high skills/Attributes), while for generalists, it was massively better than build points.

The SR5 version doesn't keep up with Priority nearly as well. The problem is that things have been raised across the board - you don't have that balloon payment to hard-max that one Attribute, starting with a Magic of 6 and/or an Edge of 5-7 is fairly common, and you can have multiple skills of 6. All of these things cost a lot when you use the exponential costs of Karma - even specializations are expensive, costing 7 rather than 2 Karma. It costs 200 Karma to maximize your resources.

All of these things add up to the point where 800 points is simply not the equivalent of a Priority build. You can make viable characters (although some things, such as trolls or augmented characters, have a tougher time), but it is only worth it if you have a really finicky build.

The one advantage it does have over Priority is that it is much, much more scalable. Just raise or lower the Karma amounts and there you are. SR5 does try to have some "high-powered" or "low-powered" variants to Priority, but they... don't work very well.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 12 2015, 05:32 AM

Hey , MY POST was just a little Biased, not full of Hate

To be Fair,
There IS Love from My Side (Well rather fondness, not really Love )
The Devs from CGL did try to remove some Mistakes but that didn't work out.
f.E.
the CGL Guys realized that a Skill Level of 6 (in 4A) is not enough, especially when a Char can start with Skills of 5 or 6
so they raised the Levels.
That is a superb Idea !
BUT (!)
A Skill Level of 12 is too high, it can hardly be achieved by Chars (especially because they reduced the Karma Rewards for Runs which is another minor Problem)
Now only the NPCs can make use of the higher skillrating and the higher pools,
You find average (Prof 3 ) NPCs with Pools of 12,15 or more Dice. Something a PC (and his Player) can only dream of !
A raising to 9 (10 with exceptional talent) would have been perfect,
for PCs there would still be room to grow but the "Top is in Reach"
Another Example:
The Devs from CGL recognized that Direct Combat Spells is a mighty tool for a Mage and if overcast most often a One-Shot-Kill for the Mage
So they Nerfed direct Combats spell which is ok,
BUT (!)
Now the only way to effectively use direct Combat Spells is to overcast them (something CGL wanted to Prevent IIRC)
AND Mages have to overcast severall times to down an Enemy
so the contrary of what CGL intended happens now
it would've been much simpler toreduce the Base Damage of direct Combat Spells to 1/2 Spell Rating and Indirect Combat Spells to Full Spell Rating
(Simple and Clean ! )
but they didn't and it seems that enough players complained so CGL introduced a Pos Qual (Feel my hot Wrath....?)
to raise the Damage of direct Combat Spells again ( but they didn't correct the fact that Combat Mages Still overcast regularly....
Next example would be :
"Thou shall Attack only once per Inipass !"
CGL Idea was (If I interpret it correctly) to shorten the Combat BUT they Violate the Ingame Reality so hard becuase they Introduced Boardgame Rules into a RPG which is inherently bad !
( You can Shoot twice per Inipass, but You can Attack only once....)

Some of CGL's Ideas are OK, but the execution (or implementation into the Rules) failed.
Some Issues are even worse, but I don't want to spoil my Sunday by listing all that is bad & wrong (and no Fun) with SR5.
My Final Tip:
Mix the best from SR4A with the best from SR5 and make Your own Game (I do so with a Campaign in 2055 )

with a Sunday's Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 12 2015, 05:40 AM

@ Karmagen
You get 800 Karma
If you deduct the Higher Racial Costs you can create Chars that can be compared to the 750 Karma from SR4A
BUT (!)
with Priority (or Sum to Ten) Your Chars compare to 900 or 950 Karma or even 1000 from SR4A !
Especially High Attributes (Prime example is the Troll Melee Adept with STR10) can only be done with Prio or Sum-->10
If you want to make a Troll Adept with Karmasystem it'll become a One-Trick-Pony which lacks so many othere Skills, Abilities,Etc that he's no fun to Play !
The different Char Creation Methods are NOT (!!) balanced !
and forget about the Lifepath System
Just forget it
It's really not worth writing down everything that's wrong with it
(not on a Sunday)

HougH!
Medicineman

Posted by: AlyW Jul 12 2015, 06:06 AM

Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jul 12 2015, 06:10 AM

Didnt they playtest any of this?

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 12 2015, 06:28 AM

That's what the product release was.

Posted by: hermit Jul 12 2015, 06:29 AM

Playtesting happened (and it's easy to get into; just write Jason an email). I'm not at liberty to go into details unfortunately. But the problem wasn't not playtesting.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 12 2015, 06:39 AM

ever thought about a Decker Adept ?
( You could Use Your Powerpoints to boost your Decking Skills or combine it with Cat Burglar or Traceur)



From what I read in the US Forums CGL doesn't listen to the Playtester...
or forgets to correct some of the Issues that the Playtester report

with a combination's Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Glyph Jul 12 2015, 07:40 AM

Augmentations are more expensive, but starting resources are higher, too. Some things have actually improved. To get the bad out of the way, it is generally better to stick to laser sights with wireless turned off rather than smarlinks, and to not combine the formerly-stackable wired reflexes and reaction enhancers. They both give "bonuses" (getting the +2 dice you got before in SR4, and having two augmentations the previously stacked still do so), but it is not worth the small but still present risk of getting bricked by a hacker, which can permanently damage augmentations. Also, you don't halve the lower of cyberware/bioware Essence costs any longer.

On the positive side, "used" 'ware is treated as its own grade now (so no more "used alphaware" crap any more), one which can be useful, since it has lower Availability (lots of builds with used muscle toner: 3). Cyberlimbs have much better rules than SR4, similar to the Augmentation rules, but even better since they simplified cyberlimb stats by only giving them Agility and Strength ratings, dropping the needless Body rating. Anything that gives a dice pool bonus is more expensive, but toughness-enhancing augmentations (bone lacing, orthoskin, etc.) is a lot cheaper. So while street samurai, like mages, have been nerfed in areas, they are still viable - you just need to revise your optimization strategies.


On decks - my main problem with them is that they make deckers too gear-dependent. If they lose their deck, they are suddenly all but useless at their main function. And good luck getting another one, if you compare the cost of a good deck with what they think a shadowrun should pay.

Posted by: Moirdryd Jul 12 2015, 09:30 AM

Most of the Wireless silliness (especially with smartlinks etc) is easily avoided by either A) Simple House rule so it all works like it did before or B) Going RAW use the Internal Router from ChromeFlesh

I cannot contribute much to the 4v5 question as I've gone from 3rd to 5th with a few house rules rolled in (some are not so much House Rules and Rulings on a player action that I've written up to keep it consistent when people want to do the same thing, like my Encryption/Electronic Warfare stuff).

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 12 2015, 01:52 PM

Off topic, but still relevant: With SR4A, what level or karma did you use for starting characters? What was a fair level as compared to BP




Now back on topic: I think every iteration of Shadowrun paid 'Runners way, Way, WAY too damn little! I mean considering what I'm hearing about a Run; you can make more money, be safer, have an easier time with it, and piss off the LEOs less by stealing cars! You're dealing with people who are regularly sporting 100,000+ of augmentation/magic* gear. These people are PROFESSIONALS and the Johnson's paying them peanuts!

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 12 2015, 03:32 PM

If it's SR4 you don't even need a datajack. Arsenal, page 63, the Fingernail Data Storage. It's wirelessly accessible, is less than half the price of a Standard grade datajack, doesn't cost any Essence, and fools everyone on a casual look. On top of that there's nothing to say that it must be a fingernail.

As far as I can recall this little bit of gear has not yet been reprinted into SR5. Maybe it's too powerful, like the skinlink?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 12 2015, 04:11 PM

There was also Nanopaste Memory (Unwired, Page 200 - lasted for 24 hours)...
If one wanted to restore the availability of Fingernail Data Storage, it should not be a problem due to the massive and totally available Memory storage already in game.

Posted by: hermit Jul 12 2015, 04:16 PM

But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 12 2015, 04:20 PM

Too True. Though apparently, Nanoware was not quite the scare they made it out to be, since it was reintroduced almost in its entirety once again. Took a few weeks to work the bugs out, I guess.

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 12 2015, 04:32 PM

Kinda begs the question to what really happens when your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers get bricked because you left the wireless open. Me, I'm of the opinion that you become a quadriplegic and a quivering mass of jello until the systems gets replaced, though a friend of mine feels that you just lose the cyberware benefits and can act as normal despite the fact that your replacement spinal cord is now a sparking, melting piece of slag (yes, I've told him about how spectacular the death of a bricked anything is).

Posted by: hermit Jul 12 2015, 04:57 PM

That's gamism versus simulation, or "how video game logic do you want your game to be?"

Actually, even a whiff of vapors emitted from bricked brainware will kill you nearly instantly, if you go the realism route. But alas, Shadowrun 5 kowtows before video game logic. Me, I'd consider all bricking firmware damage, no explosions or anything.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 12 2015, 05:25 PM

I considered the aforementioned version (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills) to be the closest to balanced. Most characters were a bit over 400 BP, a few corner cases (such as trolls with high natural Body and Strength) were somewhat worse off, and generalists (of the low Attribute/low skill variety) were a lot better (which was still balanced, to me - I thought build points were far too punishing to generalist builds, which were already a suboptimal concept).

It's all but impossible to make them exactly balanced. One uses flat costs, and one uses exponential costs, so they will never match up completely.




I agree, but SR5 makes it worse by having actual rules for calculating run payments.

Posted by: AlyW Jul 13 2015, 04:36 AM

Can cyberware have firewalls, like in SR4? augments could be hacked in the older edition as well, if they were wireless enabled, but the hacker had to hack through the firewall first

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 13 2015, 05:35 AM

every Appliance with WiFi Online has a firewall, but you better buy a Rating 7 Comlink and slave all 'ware that has to be Online through that comlink.....
but there is NO 'Ware that absolutely has to be online (except a Comlink)

With a WiFiFree Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Betx Jul 13 2015, 04:45 PM

I never played SR4, so I can't compare it with SR5 (I hadn't played since second edition). But having run SR5 for over a year now, I've become pretty impressed with how well the the majority of the rules work out in practice. It may be that things that were good before are not good now, and vice versa, and there are for sure a few bits that are off (spirits are too strong, technomancers and aspected mages only seem to work out well for niche builds) -- but once we got a good handle on the rules we've found that the majority of contests make sense in how they play out. That is, our 'fluff' knowledge of the world and actual power levels and abilities to do things line up pretty well, and the rules create reasonable outcomes. Which in the end is the rules' most important job.

But I do admit that it took a lot of time reading and a lot of time playing before we really had a good flow going and came to trust the rules. The organization and writing of the rules do no favours in terms of selling the mechanics.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 13 2015, 05:03 PM

The rumors of wireless being a deathtrap are greatly exaggerated. Consider a device rating 6 commlink: you can slave up to 18 devices to it, and then those devices resist attacks with 12 dice. That's not bad for character generation. Especially when you consider that that an elite corp security decker is only throwing around 15 dice on his test, with a limit of around 8 or 9. Which doesn't seem too bad, right? Well, is he running silent? No? Then his icon is instantly noticable, and he can be attacked with ease by your team's Decker, who SHOULD be handling these things. He is running silent? -2 dice pool. Is the target on the public grid(and if you're trying to be sneaky and smart, you should be)? Another -2 dice pool.

So a Professional Rating 5, which is pretty hardcore, has less dice to throw at his target than his target has to resist. Sure, I can char gen someone who throws 6 attribute and 7 skill, +2 for relevant specialization, +2 for hot sim, or 17 dice(limited via deck). Sure, you can augment the character, but at best you get around 4 more dice.

Decker vs. Decker tends to be a bit easier, because Decks(and RCCs) have lower device ratings and attributes. A 5K Avalon gives you a dice pool of 12 to resist matrix attacks, but you won't get that sort of performance from a deck until you hit the CIY-720, running Encyption, with Firewall as it's highet attribute, for 345k. You see the difference?

Deck costs are a bit. Obscene. We've modified them by .7, and found that's a bit less of a problem.

But the idea that a decker is gonna hijack your cyber arm and strangle it with you is absolutely stupid, unless you were absolutely stupid and skimped on your commlink.

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 05:25 PM

The primary problem isn't even bricking, it's the inability of not being instantly detected on corporate property, since commlinks have no Stealth attribute. Dongles help a bit, but are ridiculously expensive. Of course, since "are any devices running hidden on my property" is a valid question in Matrix Perception, so does anyone else.


Yeah, and given that corp deckers operate outside their juristictions with impunity, you now need a decker to nanny you 24/7. Happy downtime.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 13 2015, 05:47 PM

As regards to pay, I wonder what kind of runs ya'll are throwing your players way.

a current run I have cooked up is going to pay out 24k a piece. That's not a LOT of money, but four or five of those runs, and you can buy something decent. And that's a mild one.

Really BIG jobs, I would break down into multiple side missions, leading up to the final run. But that's me.

But I don't know why people think shadowrunners are supposed to be millionaires.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 13 2015, 06:21 PM

I'm not sure that's how it works. I don't have Data Trails, but just being physically present on corporate property doesn't instantly expose you. If you are out on the grid, then you have to be within 100m of the Decker, and he has to search for hidden icons. That doesn't instantly identify you, instead he now has to do an opposed test with you(granted, commlinks don't come with Sleaze, so it's a bit one sided) to identify you, and if there are multiple hidden icons, then it's random.

Wanna mess with the spider? Buy 10 throwaway commlinks, and toss them out around you. Thats a thousand bucks, and it gives you 1 in 11 odds of being found immediately. If everybody in the group does that, then you just created a whole bunch of white noise to dig through.

Now, if you are on the PUBLIC grid, which you should be, they have a -2 dice pool to search for you. Which makes sense: the public grid is everywhere, and a lot of meaningless bullcrap, like cheap snackfood rfids and aros are probably on the public grid.

Further, if you are actively trying to infiltrate some place, then I imagine you are moving slowly and stealthily, which means you should be Matrix Full Defense anyway, if you're REALLY that concerned about matrix detection. That makes detection a bit harder, depending on your willpower. Generally, I only trust fairly willful, smart and disciplined people to run with me, but, that's me. I think our group averages around 5 willpower(my rigger actually drags it down, because he covers too many bases) and Logic around 4.5. So that's easily around 9 dice, vs x - 2 or x - 4. It's not really an uneven contest. And the spider needs to be within 100m of you. Which is why I love area and directional jammers: if you can figure out his rough location, you shut him down, period. I mean, sure an "elite" security decker will detect you. But most security deckers arn't elite. I think 10-12 reflects an "average" security decker.

If you are in the host? Well, things get different. But a commlink can't access a host illicitly, it has to have permission. Unless running a dongle(I'm not sure how the dongles work exactly, but we've also used programs on commlinks for a while, and found it didn't break anything). But basically, if you are on a host you are either a legitimate user(no hiding needed!) or hacking.




If I go to sleep while logged into a host, and leave my commlink running, sure. If I log out of any hosts I am on and turn off my commlink, then... I am good. Even if all I do is turn it to run silent, then the decker has to be within 100m of me. If they've gotten that close to me, then I have a problem.

Furthermore, I make it a habit to have multiple commlinks and identities.

One is my Legend, and it has the best fake ID I can get. It's my legitimate cover in the world. When I go out and do "civilian" things, it's my Commlink. It never intersects with my clandestine activities, ever. The Legend is almost never running silent. But I leave the Legend at home when on runs(ALIBI!)

Then there is the Working Visa: that's my default "criminal" commlink and ID, and it's what I use to talk to my team mates and contacts. For added security, split your contacts off, but that's up to you. Generally, it should be as secure as your Legend.

Then we have the Burners: cheap, disposable commlinks and IDs.

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 06:40 PM

So in case the corp security measures were designed by a lobotomized moron (and allow hidden mode), the decker is grossly incompetent (never checking for hidden icons), and the corp's IT security department can only afford Radio Shack decks, you have a certain chance.


Uh huh. So instead of a quick, targeted approach, you suggest sneakily wandering the entire building and setting up distractions, assuming that the sec-decker never does checks in the one hour this will take you (and assuming the guards are blind and deaf).


Given there is reception. Also, "Any devices running on public grid present?" also is a valid Matrix Perception query.


If the decker's incompetent and has crap hardware because a one-time investment of 500K is too much to ask to protect MacGuffin-Tech's R&D facility ... plus, you have to do this twice, unless the decker really never thought about Programs.

All of this also assumes spiders are always working without backup or any kind of contingency plans.

As for downtime: none of this will help you if you are traced in any way, and a corp decker decides to roast you, or just follow you around. It's like with mages, except there are no anti-decker wards, they can cast mana combat spells from astral space, and the sums to become one are negligible for a corp, syndicate or similar entity. Plus, any mundane can become one with a handful of Karma and some strategic implants.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 13 2015, 07:14 PM

Again, difference between being in a host, and being in physical proximity to a host. I can walk into stuffer shack without logging into it's host. I probably cant buy anything unless I use certified cred. But if I am sneaking into some secure facility, I don't want to be on it's host(unless I am spoofing the identity of some legitimate user, which is a valid technique), so I stay on the public grid.




C'mon. Really. when you insert on the roof top, you toss out a burner in a dark corner or down a vent. When you go pas a bathroom or trashcan, toss a burner. Toss a burner down a hallway. This isn't hard. Use drones. Heck, we've used devil rats with commlinks taped to them before.



"There are currently 15,247 devices operating on the public grid within 100m" is a perfectly valid response. Now me, as a GM, I wouldn't include hidden devices in that, because that wasn't the question asked. Now, a good decker can ask lots of questions, but there's probably a LOT of questions they are being forced to ask. I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?




I don't assume that a band of half witted meth addicts are breaking into a secret research facility. I assume that a group of disciplined, intelligent, cunning, skilled and talented guys are working as a team to penetrate defenses of a secure facility.



No, it doesn't.


Look, I don't know how you run your games. But I run mine assuming that one of the major problems with Matrix security is the sheer volume of matrix traffic, and verifying that it's legitimate. And that's a massively hard task: the United States has had a great deal of restricted information leaked, and StuxNet shut down Iran's nuclear plans for a while. That's what secure networks face today. In 2060? Security spiders have their hands full. And not every run is against the most secure target in the planet.

If I was going to make a super secret, very restricted site for research and design of my most important program? It's going to be under-ground, completely separated from the matrix. With a secure facility on top of it's access, and a very wide perimeter. Concentric rings of defense.

If a corp decker does get wise to you, and traces you? Yeah, you are fucked. But there are real and legitimate precautions you can take against that.

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 07:29 PM

You do not have to be in the host, you have to be within reach (100 m radius) of any repeater the spider has access to.


Laying out breadcrumbs to your current position sure will help.


Hope the job pays well.


Well, if you want to drag a critter that'll eat through an armored vst, or several, with you ...

I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?
It seems your GM is rather lenient there. Of course, since in SR5 you won'T get anywhwre without GM leniency, I guess that's to be expected.


... okay. Why. Because the corp prefers shitty grids with low security to their own grid? It is a nonsensical response unless you are checking in a Stuffer Shack in Central Puyallup.


No, I figure that's what they hire shadowrunners for.

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 07:29 PM

... who will be severely outclassed by an equally competent security force through flawed rules and bad rules concepts.


... precisely where have rises of conscience of US spooks and the infiltration of a secret nuclear enrichment facility via infected data stick anything to do with internet traffic density? Nowhere, that's where.


Yup, nothing can't be cracked by social engineering except Skynet. But where does that connect to Matrix traffic?


I'd use an oil rig, personally, that lacks any sattelite or landline connectivity and is sufficiently far from any population center to have ordinary Matrix connection, but that's just me.


Only up to a point, really. Besides, corps do HumInt too.

Posted by: Sendaz Jul 13 2015, 07:59 PM

It is a very good idea in concept and I agree it should be one you can use, however whenever someone brings this idea up on the other forum things it tends to get a very unfavourable response.

The first hitch is once he finds a couple of these, he is probably going to yank the alarm. One or two is probably just someone forgetting their personal gear, but the mini-swarm tends to flag that something is afoot.

Then the general response you run into is like, omg you are trying to break the game-how could you?!?

Right, because we just know when you are running a hostile op you are going to play by Queensbury rules or some such nonsense.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea, I just suspect a lot of tables are going to nix it despite it being a perfectly good tactic.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 13 2015, 08:22 PM

I'd rather buy 20 Prepaid Comlinks for 20 ¥ a piece
better Odds, less cost

with a better,cheaper Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2015, 08:28 PM

Hell, if you are going that route, just pick up a hundred RFID tags. Same effect, far more bang for your buck.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 13 2015, 08:32 PM

Do what? You're going to have to cite the rules there brosefus. We are given a few examples of Deckers, and they throw around 14ish dice. I therefore assume that "average" security isn't that good. there is absolutely zero reason to think that starting level characters are going to be facing the best security ever. I mean, are all the security guards




You're right! There have never been any internet attacks against the US. And the point of StuxNet is that with enough traffic, whether physical or not, a secure site can be infiltrated.




It's a basic rule of security: the more traffic, the more security breaches.



Really? In addition to the difficulty of supplying your workers, and the additional safety hazards, you're not really isolated, and will need a dedicated naval presence to secure it. You're also extremely vulnerable to water spirits and astral infiltration. You are again, isolated, so reinforcements are a long distance away.



Everything works, up to a point. The whole reason we play this game is because shadowrunners are masters of brinksmanship.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2015, 08:53 PM

When starting Player Characters can throw upwards of 20 Dice, I do not assume that the Security Deckers of Major Megacorps are throwing 14 dice. Sorry. *shrug*

Posted by: AlyW Jul 13 2015, 09:02 PM

I apologize for my thread bringing up so many arguments -_-

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 09:08 PM

We're also given Archetypes that don't work according to the rules. If you disregard either and look into the rules and the world, you arrive at different conclusions.


The leaks about various doings of the US secret services have not been from foreign intelligence services, but their own people wondering whether they, this time, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU. Stuxnet was brought into the Iranian plant by an infiltrator. Internet traffic density played no role in either incident.


Sure. But that's not the be-all end-all to security, nor do any of the incidents you brought up as an example have this as the cause.


Sure. Still beats paying half an arcology in costs for nonsense like Umbrella's underground vault labs. Besides, cutting it loose is easier too - and far cheaper. Safety depends on additional conditions and applies to underground facilities too, btw.


The problem is, in it's quest for grimdarkness and darker and edgier world building, SR5 made that point too close to the start for a viable game where not everything only works despite everyone's sense on the basis of GM handwaivium.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jul 13 2015, 09:26 PM

Seem to me that some people are working under the assumption of the game being for the blackest of black trenchcoats and sure it's a gameplay style a lot of people enjoy.
Seem to me that under those conditions the game is very open for exploitation and gm death traps.
But judging it more from a middle of the road kind of position, not utterly black trenchcoat where you eat paranoia for breakfast and every contingency has contingencies nor completely pink mohawk where you ride into the middle of an azzie pyramid on an overgrown hell hound. Does the game mechanics actually do what they are intended to do? or is the system itself broken?

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 09:30 PM

It is a mess of rules interacting in weird ways (for instance, troll reduction lets you summon more spirits), sometimes the rules are overcomplex (called shots), sometimes too abstract (see vehicle speed), and sometimes you come onto nuggets of WTF, like the question of what happens when you unplug someone on a deep Matrix quest (the rules are silent on this scenario), or a tactical network that ostensibly is for civilian sports teams, costs half a million and will give only minimal boni (the hell CGL, where do these prices come from?).

Those are but a few random examples. The system is littered with them. It's not unplayable, but a good step backwards from

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 13 2015, 09:32 PM

The problem with SR5 is that it is not SR4, or SR3, or SR2, or SR1.

Otherwise it is Shadowrun and it works as well as any other edition. Just differently.

From my direct interaction with a hundred+ or so people I have played SR5 with over the previous couple of years one of the top comments regarding editions is that SR5 is still Shadowrunny.

Posted by: Moirdryd Jul 13 2015, 09:33 PM

Most security deckers will be operating on the Site Host. Not scanning the open Matrix Grid around the Site itself.

Posted by: hermit Jul 13 2015, 11:25 PM

Well, yes. Shadowrunnyness lives and dies with fluff, and while there has been sketchiness, there have also been excellent pieces, such as the newest novel (which I read during most of the night yesterday, and it's quite fantastic). That part of the setting generally hasn't been as unfortunately handled as rules have, though not everyone is happy with the CFD plotline.

But I can enjoy fluff while playing in any edition. SR5 doesn't offer me very much to switch from 4th, rules-wise.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 14 2015, 01:22 AM

There's nothing to be sorry for. Hashing out rules and discussing how we run the game are what this forum is for, and it's been a pretty civil discussion.



Millionaires? Not sure I'd go that far. But there is a bit of a disconnect between the monetary resources that a starting street samurai, rigger, or decker requires, and how much the rules have them making afterwards. Your rules sound reasonable; the book's, much less so.



Overall:
SR5 is pretty balanced, mechanically, but they made some options all but unplayable by over-nerfing them (SURGE is a joke now, and technomancers got hit pretty hard too), and they have added all kinds of needless hindrances such as bricking, higher background count, and limits, which do nothing but suck fun from the game. Both the rules and the fluff suffer from truly horrendous editing, which has improved ever so slightly, but is still a long way from acceptable.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 14 2015, 02:55 AM

Well, the the problem with that line of thinking is that the highest attainable base dicepool appears to hover around 18(6 in attribute, 12 in skill), not counting specilizations or gear. The most talented int he world may get 20 dice from attribute and skill, and augmentations can push that 4 higher. Thats the base line for "best in the world". So starting characters with 18 or 20 dice are not "average" people. They are generally statistical outliers.

So yeah, an "average" corp decker probably throws around 12 to 14 dice. And thats a pretty high "average".

Corp spiders have all sorts of advantages, not related to skill or dice pool. No overwatch is a big one. Being able to operate in a host with IC that are friendly. Having the ability to call for copious back up on the matrix.

Its not that your average corp decker tosses 20 dice back at you, its that he can send a message and get twenty more guys to cover his ass.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 14 2015, 05:44 AM

No ! The Problem ist SR5 IS SR4A (mostly except for the Matrix and some other slight differencies)
BUT it is SR4A in BAD and with Limits

with the same Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: hermit Jul 14 2015, 08:10 AM

Given their price policy, CGL seems to think differently, or at least elements within CGL.


And Elite security are average people? Or, in more gamist terms, you think matching statistical outliers with average people is a worthy challenge? Sorry, that may be your way of rationalizing around some of SR5'S innate problems, but that doesn't mean it makes a whole lot of sense to others.


SR5 is SR4 that wants to be SR3, but isn't very good at it.


Why should they' There's ICE to do that job in the host. They're far more effective in the open Matrix.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 14 2015, 12:56 PM

You do realize that the Starting Character with 18 Dice is still just a Professional level Character, yes (Mine started with a Skill 6, Starting Attribute 6, Specialty, Quality for +2 and HotSim for 18 Dice)? An Elite Character has skills around 9-10 and stats above 6 (Character currently has skill 6, Attribute 8, several Specialties, Positive Quality for +2 in several skills and HotSim for 20 Dice - But still only Professional Level). So no, I do not see Average Corporate Deckers that have been doing their job for a while as "Average." I expect them to be at least in a starting PC's league. And Veteran Level is a Skill 7. And Yes, they also will enjoy many benefits a Shadowrunner will not, but that does not mean that you give them less ability than a starting Professional.

And that brings me to one of the big disconnects of SR5, for me at least. The Skill System (my other is Global Limits). While many people like that skills now go above SR4's Legendary 7, I am not one of them. Yes, in SR4, you can start out as best in the world, in one skill, and possibly even Legendary. In SR5, that level is now what we know as Professional/Veteran. Problem is that taking your character to Elite is now stupid expensive (Used to be a Skill 5, but is now 9-10), never mind Legendary. And while that appeals to some (I like it in some ways in theory, since my goal was always to start at Professional and improve, but execution is not equal to theory here) but it irritates people since they will likely never see Elite Status in their core skills, let alone support skills. Even 200 Karma in to our campaign, we have YET to see a skill 7, though we do have some working towards it (and mind, that is in a single skill to this point - yes, I know one could just pound Karma into raising skills to double digits, but that is rarely logical, nor does it generally represent a normal progression for people. Such skill and knowledge is garnered over many years of experience, not months, and is generally (successful or not) represented in game by training times). Many games do not go half that in Karma. So effectively you will never see Elite Status. And that sucks.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 14 2015, 01:57 PM

that's what I think about the Subject of the new Skill Rating

HougH!
Medicineman

Posted by: hermit Jul 14 2015, 03:02 PM

SR4's skills had low granularity, and an increase in that was necessary. 12 goes too high though; it already unbalances the game's core resolution mechanic (plus, Limits work against making high pools actually useful). I'd have preferred adding 3 levels unattainable by starting characters, with skills effectively one to 10 (and 7 a starting maximum, going by SR4 rules for all buying/increases).

Limits, while not bad in theory, have weird effects in practice, like trolls being super ninjas due to their high physical limit, which comes from them being 3 meters tall and weighing in at about half a metric ton. Some ninja.

Posted by: Moirdryd Jul 14 2015, 04:45 PM

Mostly because, despite the new Matrix environment, when you actually look at things like Hosts and the way they're talked about further in Data Trails, what you have is a fairly close Wireless Matrix to that of 3rd Edition. Most non-personal Devices will either be on or slaved to a Host. Security Spiders are just like the sec-deckers of the bygone age meaning that they're a limited/expensive talent pool (less so than magi but far more so than security guards) and a lot of Corps will most likely use One Host to serve Multiple Physical Sites, it's cheaper and more efficient. Because of this odds are that an actual Security Decker/Spider won't be anywhere near the physical location of a run unless the run is taking place on a rather significant building (MCT Tower in Downtown Seattle etc).

Now, what you're likely to get in terms of devices being located by onsite security is a "specialist" security guard who, odds are, will not be anywhere near as good as an actual security spider (elite teams or bad luck excepting) who can take a look around at the local Matrix and try to spot the Running Silent icons which could certainly alert the security team to an unwarranted intrusion assuming it's successful and the site in question doesn't have a bunch of Silent Icons there anyway. But at that juncture it's kind of like dodging security cameras and check points and there are methods to avoid this, jammers for one, slaving things to Cyberdecks for another (granted not being able to slave PANs to a deck makes this harder, but you can house rule like I have), implanting the RFID codes of your team's things into the manifests for the site's device log and so forth. There's also nothing that say's that you can an instant physical location when you spot a Device, you only know that it's within X meters (probably 100 since you go with the "Are there any Silent Icons within 100m of my position") You can certainly gain it's location but that's extra perception hits/ actions. Plus you can just turn the Commlink OFF if you so desire as with a few exceptions the Internal Router allows for Wireless Cyberware interface without actually being Wireless and likewise a cable from a DataJack or similar allows for SmartLink functionality and so forth.

I grant it;s not the most elegant thing in the world, but it's hardly insurmountable.

Posted by: AlyW Jul 16 2015, 12:58 AM

Curious, as this is not something I've thought of before, is electronic warfare outside of the matrix (ie dealing with radio communications, sensor jamming and such) still a thing in the 2075s?

Posted by: Lionhearted Jul 16 2015, 01:10 AM

With how easy it is to cobble together an FM receiver its unlikely that this kind of tech will ever go out of style, yeah maybe in general urban settings... but Pirate radio, underground communities, survival situations, military expeditions looking for reliable and repairable tech? Yeah you will still find radio equipment...

Posted by: Glyph Jul 16 2015, 01:20 AM

Riggers can use the electronic warfare skill for noise reduction, and anyone can use a jammer. There are still radio signals and such, but pretty much everything is on the Matrix. Micro-transceivers can have their wireless turned off, although they are only good for short-range communications then.

Posted by: AlyW Jul 16 2015, 01:36 AM

Hrm, good to know. Considering cobbling together an EW specialist, wasnt sure if there was room for such in the setting

Posted by: AlyW Jul 17 2015, 07:29 AM

Next question!

I haven't used Martial Arts in previous editions; I've been looking over Martial Arts in Run & Gun, and I'm a little confused on how to acquire them.

If I spend points in the Unarmed Combat skill, how do I then get to the martial arts form and technique? My *guess* is that they are separate purchases, since it seems like the various techniques modify basic combat abilities (such as Chin Na giving a +2 bonus to Physical Limits on subdue attacks). So how many skill ranks one has in unarmed combat is irrelevant. Am I correct in this?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2015, 12:56 PM

Martial Arts are purchased separately from the Unarmed Combat Skill. It takes 7 Karma points to gain access to the Martial art (and you receive one of the 6 Maneuvers listed in the Martial Art as well, your choice). Additional Maneuvers cost an additional 5 Karma. So a total Martial Art will cost the character 32 Karma to master. Also, as far as I can tell, there is no restriction of skill placed on the purchase of the martial art maneuvers, as there was in earlier Editions (3rd IIRC); So yes, Skill rank is mostly irrelevant in the purchasing of the martial art.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 18 2015, 01:31 AM

The whole section on combat maneuvers is a grating pain to scan through. Some of the martial arts-only techniques are mixed in with the general actions earlier, there are way too damn many actions (they really should have pared down the rules bloat), and, especially for the martial arts, they give many of them a lameass name like "leaping mantis" or "monkey climb" instead of something more descriptive of what that maneuver does.

They have a lot more martial arts styles, including ones for guns and melee weapons, but they are less distinctive, since martial arts styles don't give specific bonuses, just a different list of 6 maneuvers for each one. You can learn the same maneuver twice from two different styles, letting you turn a piddly +1 bonus to a piddly +2 bonus, so you are better off learning more than one style rather than mastering one style (this may sound a bit disparaging, but actually, this is better than SR4, where the martial arts rules were overpowered). You can only have one style at character creation, though. There is one special technique, Neijia, which can be learned by any character that knows a martial arts style - it is basically the Attack of Will that mundanes use to attack spirits.

Martial arts is also available as a specialization (it doesn't explicitly say, but I assume you need the quality before you can take the specialization). Despite the glut of martial arts stuff, how to determine when a martial arts specialization applies is still vague. There is a quality called One Trick Pony, which lets you use a single martial arts quality without knowing a martial art. It costs 7 Karma, the same as learning a martial arts style (which includes a martial arts maneuver...), so it doesn't save you anything; only take it if you want a one trick pony. There is also Lucky Move, where you spend a point of Edge to use a martial arts technique that you have not been trained in; there are usually better ways to spend Edge, in my opinion.

Posted by: AlyW Jul 18 2015, 08:45 PM

That last paragraph could be a concern, since the character I am working on did take a martial arts specialization to unarmed combat (along with paying some karma to get the form and a couple of techniques)

Posted by: Glyph Jul 19 2015, 01:00 AM

If you bought both a martial art and the specialization, you don't really have anything to be concerned over. Maybe it's confusing that I called martial arts styles "qualities", although I guess they aren't explicitly referred to as such. All I was saying was, it is logical to expect a character to know the karate style before taking an unarmed specialization in karate.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 19 2015, 06:47 AM

For me its the other way round.
First You learn generic unarmed Combat, than You specialise in Karate THAN you learn the Karate Style and the Maneuvers.
Knowing a Style is for me the equivalent of being a Black Belt. And specializing is ...any colored Belt.

but To Topic.
There's lots of People that say that with a specialisation( and a +2 Bonus) in Martial Art there also comes a +2 Bonus for all the Maneuvers if you also Learn the Style.
I like that thought and use it at my tables too

with a Dance on a Table
Medicineman

Posted by: Isath Jul 21 2015, 02:05 PM

To me it is rather odd, to seperate unarmed combat from martial arts as RAW has it. But that directly ties in to the point of weird skillweighting and something hilarious I have read in this thread about SR5 being fairly balanced.

Shadowrun as such is not balanced. While it would be hell to go and try to balance it, it is even less balanced than it could or should be. Still Shadowrun is not much about actual classes and balance is highly linked to context. One games uber-build may easily be another games "mostly useless" one. People time and again try to explain the balance of Shadowrun, by simply summing up points, igonring what they mean and how context changes their worth.

Shadowrun has never been and still is not balanced. SR5 simply adressed some issues and worsened quite a few aswell. Further more this is getting worse with almost every book they throw out there. Shadowrun should not be balanced but reasonable. It should be somewhat consitent and coherent. Yet we have multiple versions of the same thing, that rulewise work quite differently (be it powers, implants or whatnot). There are such huge differences in how the crunch is approached in different chapers of one and the same book (and over different books) that I sometimes wonder if it is still the same system or world from a few pages ago. There is no such thing as a line there (even though there appears to be a line developer).

Fluffwise it may still be shadowrunny, but I think that CGL even failed the fluff on many accounts. In all honesty I do not think that CGL is treating SR well.

Shadowrun always had problems and no edition was flawless, SR5 (while still profiting from what SR4 achieved) is the worst so far.

The sentiment that SR5 is SR4 trying to be SR3 has been mine from the first moments on, asmuch as the fact that does so badly and that the idea it self is rather bad. Again and again I really try and infact I actively play SR5, but this edition is lost.

So as for the question, which way to go... stick with the latest version of SR4 (or SR4a as some say) and if you like patch in some of the better features of SR5. Although the best thing to do would likely be to make up your own edition anyway.

Posted by: Blade Jul 21 2015, 02:59 PM

I agree that balance in Shadowrun is different from balance in many other games (unless you play Shadowrun: Dungeon Crawl) but I don't think that it's not a concern.

It is a problem if the mage (or adept, or cyber-adpet, or rigger, or whatever) can out-face the face, out-gun the sam/adept and out-stealth the infiltration specialist (especially if he can do it at the same time).
It is a problem if one augmentation path (cyber, adept or combination of both) is consistently better than the other. If someone can create a build that will have the exact same stat as another one but with higher scores, there's a problem

So while it's illusory to search for perfect balance, it's still a good idea to try to make sure that all valid character concepts can bring something interesting to the party.

Posted by: Isath Jul 21 2015, 04:47 PM

True, but SR5 is not doing too well in that sector either. Then again, Shadorun probably never did.

Posted by: hermit Jul 21 2015, 06:51 PM

It didn't but it did do better than currently.

I don't think that's by design, though; it's more the unforeseen consequence of a range of design decisions, miscommunications and differences on the idea what "everything has a price" is supposed to mean. And no line direction of note, of course, but that was par for the course in late SR4 already and isn't an SR5 exclusive problem. I do hope the ChromeFlesh PDF did not go to the printers like this, though.

Posted by: Isath Jul 21 2015, 11:30 PM

Hermit I am right with you there. While it is a very noticable SR5 problem, I would link it more to CGL, than the edition alone. "No line-direction of note" still hits it on the spot.

Posted by: hermit Jul 21 2015, 11:57 PM

Unfortunatly so, yes.

Posted by: Sternenwind Jul 22 2015, 04:43 PM

Will there be a ChromedFlesh PDF version with a usable "table of content"? ^^

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 22 2015, 11:56 PM

*shakes the magic 8-ball* "Don't Hold Your Breath"

Posted by: Smash Jul 23 2015, 10:27 PM

Dumpshock is like the ISIS of Shadowrun forums. You're not going to get a balanced report on the new edition here. If you don't worship the Caliphate of SR4 you are an infidel!

SR5 is definately worth it.

Posted by: Smash Jul 23 2015, 10:30 PM

The cosat of basic wares has gone up, but the upgrade path is affordable with Alpha-Delta multipliers being much more rational.

Don't listen to SR5 hate on Dumpshock. you'll miss something good if you do.

Posted by: Mikado Jul 23 2015, 11:21 PM

Wow... I find that highly offensive. .. I have been lurking here for some time reading posts on 5th edition. Yes, there is a lot of vitriol for 5th (I for one don't like it) but the problems people have with it are real. From book layout, corrections not used, fluff and crunch mixed... Yes, 4th had those problems too but 5th seems to take them to a new level. Then you have the rules people don't like...

While you are calling us ISIS why don't you throw in Nazis too... ...



You know... I had this discussion with my old GM... what's the problem with house ruling the reduced grade costs into 4th. What's wrong with using the skill levels of 5th in 4th.

Absolutely nothing... that's what. The OP asked what people thought of 5th so they responded. If he wants to base his/her opinion of 5th on what the people here say that's his choice. I for one am glad I didn't waste money on any part of 5th... I just wish I could get the few hours of my life back I spent reading the 5th ed book.

Now... I am perfectly OK getting a perma-ban for what I am about to write but...

Next time you want to spout off your mouth equating people to ISIS, or Nazis for that matter, shut the fuck up and keep it to yourself.

Posted by: Smash Jul 23 2015, 11:49 PM

You're pretty easily offended then. It's called a metaphor. I'm saying that the opinions here are in the extreme, They should not be taken as the mainstream view. In fact, they're not even close. ISIS was used for gravitas, nothing more.



Go nuts. I never said you couldn't.



As well as being easily offended, you are also hard of reading. He didn't ask for people's opinions on whether he should get the editiion but rather what the key differences were. What he got was basically a load of opinionated bollocks.

Here it is again for your benefit:



After about a page of hate the guy had already written off the edition. Just as well he didn't draw a picture of Jordan Weisman................



I hope you don't. I have a pretty thick skin.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 23 2015, 11:50 PM

So, the infinity mirror is back. So much for fixing the matrix. But I remember someone from design team saying that the way to fix this issue is to kick the player who tries stuff like that. So, I guess, problem solved.

Posted by: Smash Jul 24 2015, 01:49 AM

This is again, not even an issue. If you make your matrix perception check each hit tells you something about the icon. Now admittedly this is a pretty vague rule that could have been easily tightened up but you can either interpret it as:

1) "Oh, there's 10 shite commlinks and 1 deck" as the result of the roll or:

2) "There's 11 unknowns" because we assume that people can make icons give whatever rubblish information they want which then breaks the rules.

I tend to go for the former.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 24 2015, 02:02 AM

Smash, if you have a problem with any of the things that people have been saying about SR5's editing, wireless rules, martial arts rules, or anything else we've been talking about, then feel free to rebut any of it. But be specific. Just saying "They're a bunch of haters" doesn't really cut it. Say why we're supposedly being unfair.


Your last post was a good start. I would probably agree with you, assuming the icons were all within insta-spotting distance and not running hidden. The problem (for the hacker) arises when either the icons are running silently, or they are using the Wrapper program on their icons.

Posted by: apple Jul 24 2015, 11:57 AM

So we can call the SR5/WAR! authors/line developer and fans Nazis for the "Works bring freedom" chapter in WAR?

Just as a metaphor of course?

SYL

Posted by: Redjack Jul 24 2015, 12:33 PM

The ISIS comment was way out of line. Stop trolling for a flame war or post somewhere else, it's that simple.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 24 2015, 09:52 PM

What breaks the rules? Particularly, if there are hidden icons in the vicinity, why should a matrix perception test give you more information than: "There are so-and-so number of hidden icons"?

I find it so strange that one group of people take the position that "wireless is rubbish because its easily hackable, and you can't protect your wireless devices", without anything in the world to back them up.

Actual experience is that Commlinks are not easy to hack(anything less than a rating 4 is fairly easy, but rating 5 and better are pretty hard to hack), neither is anything else. Hacking pretty much requires top of the line equipment, and world class skills.

Posted by: Sternenwind Jul 24 2015, 11:25 PM

Do you not need a Sleaze attribute to hide something? Doesn’t anything, not hidden/sleazed; in the matrix clearly say what it is and what it can?

Posted by: Glyph Jul 25 2015, 01:01 AM

Sleaze is a Matrix Attribute, used as a limit for performing Matrix actions (such as hack on the fly) or to resist them (such as trace icon). Sleaze is typically used for tests involving hiding or making subtle probes or code alterations.

You don't need it to run silent, though (rules start on page 235). It is part of the test to defend against someone trying to perceive a hidden icon, so someone running a commlink would be rolling only Logic vs. the decker's Computer + Intuition (Data Processing) test. But (page 236) if there are multiple hidden icons, the decker has to randomly pick which one he is going to look at with this opposed test. That is where Wothanoz's tactic of carrying around 10 throwaway commlinks comes from - you are reducing your chances of being spotted right away to a bit less than 10%.

Posted by: Sternenwind Jul 25 2015, 08:20 AM

He roll Logic [ - ] vs Computer + Intuitionm[Data Processing]. The silent running whatever has 0 successes, because he cannot have, use not more than 0 Successes. Whoever is looking pretty much find it/him by default. And at this point y can just run a level 1 Agent or Ice to look for stuff like that.

Posted by: apple Jul 25 2015, 09:07 AM

Thats the point where you use 1000 small stealth tags in silent mode.

SYL

Posted by: Moirdryd Jul 25 2015, 11:13 AM

There is no Limit on the Logic + Sleaze roll Sternenwind so hits can be achieved without Sleaze, it's just less effective. The multiple Commlink thing is a decent idea although I tend to allow sorting of Silent Icons with Matrix Perception checks before picking which ones they want to start identifying properly (this actually makes Wrapper more useful) as I allow for the "Any Silent Running Icons within 100m/on host" and once that's established I allow hits to be used to filter by type (PANs, Commlinks, Weapons etc). Means diversion tactics can be used but it also allows Wrapper to apply more but prevents things from bogging down into the 1000 rfid tag tactic.

Posted by: Wothanoz Jul 25 2015, 01:56 PM

I don't mind that interpretation. I dislike any interpretation that makes wireless a death sentence.

Also, for real fun: have a Technomancer and Decker team up. It's amazing what a Decker can do when a Technomancer is helping him.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2015, 02:52 PM

A Technomancer should not have to team up with a Decker to be effective. One of the biggest complaints of Technomancer players in SR5. They should be viable by themselves. They are, but you need to design for that, and designing to be the Buffer of the Decker messes with that design choice.

As for wireless being a death sentence, that is the price you pay to be wireless in SR5. Best way to avoid it is to turn off wireless. It is not necessary. May make things a bit more difficult, but it is definitely not something that you need to deal with. If the Decker is protecting a team from opposition hackers (Matrix Bodyguard) he is not performing his job of Matrix Intrusion Specialist. Action economy and all that.

Posted by: apple Jul 25 2015, 03:25 PM

But ... it is the explicit goal of wifi in SR5 to be detectable and attackable. That is, according to the line developer Jason Hardy the explicit reason why wifi exists in the first place. And since you are usually playing a game of cat and mouse (or evil corp soldiers vs brave runners) being detected by an enemy who can throw Thor hammers at you is usually a death sentence only stopped when you bribe the game master with sex or chocolate.



Yes, we all know that the current generation of SR authors would love to see the TM reduced being a pet for the real hacker.

SYL

Posted by: Sendaz Jul 25 2015, 04:00 PM

*has images of Slamm-O! telling Netcat that and the ensuing graphic violence that would ensue.*

Heh

Posted by: Deckbeard Jul 25 2015, 04:05 PM

'Domestically Disturbed' is my all time favorite SR short fiction.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 25 2015, 07:23 PM

or play a Mage/Mystic Adept who doesn't rely on /doesn't need WiFi

with a magical Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Sendaz Jul 25 2015, 08:00 PM

At least until they introduce WizFi for 6th Ed.

Because you know 6th approaches as foretold by the omen of the coming of the Rigger Handbook

Posted by: Glyph Jul 25 2015, 10:01 PM

Mages already have the equivalent of going wireless - astral perception. Using it lets you see magical security features or analyze things by their aura, but it also leaves you vulnerable to astral threats. If they had put as much thought into wireless, it would have been better received. Because that is the main problem people had with wireless - its slipshod implementation. Wireless bonuses should have been for communications, remote-controlled things, or thing that could plausibly benefit from being connected to the Matrix's database.

Instead it was an illogical mess that left no one happy. Street samurai had to worry about an undetectable attack that could leave them blind or crippled, turning them away from previously-iconic augmentations like smartlinks. Deckers, the ones who supposedly benefited from this by having an "attack" they could do, found that actually pulling it off was difficult (and frustrating). And in addition to that, they got stuck with babysitting duty, tasked with defending their teammates from hacking attacks.

Posted by: hermit Jul 26 2015, 10:39 AM

The problem being that this cripples any mundane character compared to awakened characters, since a lot of cyberware and equipment provides no meaningful effect without wireless. On the other hand, if you turn it on, there's no meaningful defense a character themselves can employ to protect against Matrix attacks. In the end, this makes mundane characters vastly less effective than awakened characters.


Indeed. In practice it became a very badly implemented, fluffwise ridiculous nerf bat for anyone mundane and augmented. For an edition that wanted to emphathise the cyberpunk element in Shadowrun, SR5 is very busy to nerf the Augmented, anyway (and is there even one new novel that doesn't have an awakened or emergent protagonist?)

Posted by: Moirdryd Jul 26 2015, 10:59 AM

Two simple fixes...
1) Make the stuff work like in previous editions. This is not hard.
or, for an Official fix
2) Use the Internal Router from Chrome Flesh.

Granted 1 should have been in place from the get go but at least 2 is an official fix.

Posted by: hermit Jul 26 2015, 01:06 PM

I wouldn't call it a fix (spend a lot of Essence so that cyberware maybe does what it's supposed to do), but it's a step in the right direction. Also, it is, according to the author, "highly controversial" among authors. Make of that what you will.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 26 2015, 01:38 PM

Perhaps, but I have yet to actually see such a crippling of Mundane characters (though I guess it is possible) vs. the Awakened characters. Awakened characters have always outshined the Mundane in practice for the most part, so the wireless issues don't seem to be the issue here. And since you can now get an internal router, some of that complaint goes away (not that that excuses the potential problems). As to no meaningful effect, there is that. I agree that SR5 is working very hard to nerf Augmented/Technomantic builds.

Posted by: Smash Jul 28 2015, 01:38 AM

The rules specifically state that each success on a perception test reveals one piece of information about that device. i.e Who owns it, what it is, what it's matrix mumbo jumbo is (Mac addresses or whatever). Having the device hidden just makes the chances of getting net successes harder. It doesn't make it impossible.

Posted by: Smash Jul 28 2015, 01:49 AM

here's the thing with that. CLEARLY, the writers were not aiming for this to be a solution. They wouldn't cook up the wireless system to allow such a simple tactic to rend it utterly useless and it's not confirmed in the rules, it’s just assumed perhaps by an absence of rules.

And it has a myriad of drawbacks. For a start, they’re all in exactly the same place. So assuming that a decker/technomancer is within 100m of you and assuming that this completely renders their ability to find and hack your commlink redundant it still makes your location an obvious point of concern.

If I did a matrix search and found 1000 hidden icons that claim to all be commlinks in the same location, I’m probably sending the Red Samurai there to shoot first and to ask questions later.

What a more realistic use of the wrapper program is likely to be is for hiding in plain sight. Someone who can see your icon broadcasting is perhaps less likely to examine it if they are not suspicious of it.

Posted by: Blade Jul 28 2015, 08:42 AM

Yes, but the thing is that the rules allow it. So there's a disconnect between the setting (where this kind of tactics isn't supposed to be used) and the rules (where this tactics work). It can be easily solved by saying that for some reason this tactic doesn't work, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a problem in the rule.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 29 2015, 06:37 AM

Someone who doesn't want to be wirelessly vulnerable has the even simpler tactic of turning their wireless off. Running silent and having a lot of dummy wireless devices also running silently is a valid tactic, though. And Matrix perception only lets you know there is an icon running silently out there; it doesn't light them all up.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 29 2015, 07:14 AM

Only everyone is carrying 1000 tags. Because it costs like 100 bucks and protects you from any hacker. Do not only shadowrunner would do this, but also security teams and even common folk who don't want their datajack to be bricked.

Posted by: hermit Jul 29 2015, 10:21 AM

Then better not even buy them in the first place, because SR5 is designed to punish you for that by having devices and cyberware contribute nothing in any way meaningful without WiFi boni. I suppose they thought this was some brilliant nudging.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 29 2015, 01:11 PM

The general +2 Limit is a boon (and you don't have to have active wireless for it), if you can use the Limit boosts. But I do agree with you for the most part. No need to Have wireless devices at all, save for the ubiquitous Comlink when one wants to actually look like a common man (Music, Pics, and you have to broadcast that SIN in certain areas don't you know). AS for Wireless enabled Cyberware? Epic Fail on all levels. *shakes head*

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 29 2015, 02:37 PM

I feel like my nose is being forcefully rubbed in it.

Posted by: hermit Jul 29 2015, 03:49 PM

Yeah, but it's only interesting if you have a basic pool well beyond 15, and I don't see that being the rule in moderate-Karma characters.

Posted by: Blade Jul 29 2015, 04:11 PM

IIRC, Wireless bonuses and cyberware that eats the soul are part of the "everything has a price" concept. Did they finally extend this concept to Awakeneds or not?

Posted by: hermit Jul 29 2015, 04:15 PM

Not unless you consider "boundless opportunities and no limits" to be the price paid.

And yes, it was. This concept never extended well beyond them, with the exception of 'mancers, whose prie was being hit with the nerf bat really hard for existing.

Posted by: apple Jul 29 2015, 08:24 PM

Thank you for pointing it out. Here is the issue: Bull explicitly stated that the new matrix is completely abstract. No realism whatsoever - game rules, not simulation rules, not story rules (I know only the German words for the well known holy trinity of rule design, not quite sure about the english words for "gamistisch").

And thats the problem: if you have a complete abstract rule system, which denies any resemblance with reality then you cannot argue with reality, when it comes to limits, possibilities and/or "realistic" actions. You only have the rules and the description of the world, nothing else, certainly you dont have "realistic" limits, because the designers explicitly stated that they wanted to move away from realism (which the SR4 matrix at least tried to balance (perhaps not very successful)).

So.

Fuck realism. More or less Jason Hardys and Bulls words from the development time of SR5 (which was now how many years ago?).

Good. So only rules and a vague world description. Because realism is not gritty and dark and only serves the awakened transhuman skinlink bullshit.

Are tags cheap? Yes they are.
Are tags small and lightweight? Yes they are.
Can you carry 1000 of them with you in a small box without any real size/weight/volume constraints? Yes you can.
Can you distribute 1k tag-packages all over the place with spirits, drones or minions just to lay down wrong hints for the physical location? Yes you can.
Do they give out a wifi / matrix signal which completely fucks up the matrix perception system, both ingame (where NPCs and agents and GODs have to scan) and out of game (where a frustrated GM throws away the dices)? Yes they do.

For that you have play- testers which seems to have failed en masse when it comes to SR5. I mean when the first version of the SR5 PDF went online, it took only several minutes before the broken speed rules were mentioned on English and German boards. It was one or two days later until the first German Player (I think it was Medicineman) connected tags and matrix perception rules together. Granted every edition had some game breakers. Some sometimes random rule combined with X from that book and Y from that run that created something horrible. Mnemoenhancers in SR3. Bloodzilla in SR4. But I have the feeling that it´s more glaring in SR5. I feel that his edition should be nicknamed the "if we only spent more than one combat round thinking about it" edition.

And thats one of the main problems of the current edition. Thinking two steps. Not only one. As in "lets improve mundanes and make them feel engaged by reducing their usable essence, bringing no real new concepts of enhancements into the game and increasing the price sometimes by a factor of 10". The sad thing is: I really believe that the authors and devs wanted to push mundane characters, to make them feel unique and powerful again as streetsams were in the second edition.

Oh hey, one attack only.

And because Wifi is so enganging and fun all our missio3n NPCs are running around with wifi off. You know, so that the PC hacker can have fun too. Or not.

For not having anything to brick besides the guy who is the enemy hacker who could be blackhammered since SR1.

Great design.

As Harlequin 2 with the recommendation to leave two of the most iconic cyberpunk archetypes at home.

PLAY MORE MAGIC; WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH AWESOMENESS FOR MAGIC!!!

BUT MAGIC HAS LIMITS

Yeah, nothing which cannot be solved with 25¥. And there is of course nooooo possible way a clever player could use reagents ... creatively.

That post may contain slight hints of sarcasm.

SYL

Posted by: hermit Jul 29 2015, 09:39 PM

"gamist". It's actually an anglicism anyway.


Playtesting has failed. It's unfair to put all the blame on playtesters though, I'd say.

Posted by: Isath Jul 29 2015, 10:14 PM

Saying playtest failed, would be implying that it was up to the playtesters. Also it is a question of knowing what the playtests actually prevented. Whatever the case, at the end of the day it is the job of QA and ultimately the Line-Developer to make decisions. The playtesters of shadowrun usually are volunteers that provide data. What has failed is CGL. I gahter it is a mixture of actually liking some of the crap so much, that they pull it through anyway, not caring enough about other crap to do it right and ultimately, not really knowing what they are doing.

That being said, I do not need SR or any P&P to be completely unexploitable, there us a GM after all and a good GM is no slave to RAW. Still, SR5 is far too flawed and incoherent. While there are good authors at work, the core is rotten.

Posted by: Smash Jul 30 2015, 12:10 AM

Why doesn't it?

I get 2 net hits. I choose to know the location of the device and what the device is.

Posted by: Smash Jul 30 2015, 12:29 AM

So why don't 2 net hits on a perception test totally remove that tactic from validity? Particularly since you can't slave 1000 tags and they're rating 1. They're not going to to be able to stealth very well and so the threshold just can't be that high.

So I get my 2 successes, I detect 1001 icons, 1 of which is a comlink, 1000 others that are stealth tags. I just simply ignore the stealth tags and attack the comlink (given that my 2nd hit gives me the location.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 30 2015, 01:56 AM

What I meant was, it just tells you there is at least one hidden icon. Yes, you can use your additional Matrix perception tests to get more information about the randomly selected icon you found. But you don't know whether there are 2, 10, or 100 more hidden icons out there. You would think so, but nope. Truth be told, I've never liked the Matrix perception rules, in any edition.

Posted by: apple Jul 30 2015, 06:03 AM

Exactly.

SYL

Posted by: apple Jul 30 2015, 06:09 AM

Point taken. Let me precise it: somewhere in the chain between playtesters, authors and dev something went really wrong. Since we all know what Jason Hardy counts as quality work ...

SYL

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 30 2015, 01:22 PM

ONE DEVICE, of 1000 Hidden RFID's per Shadowrunner on the run, not counting other hidden distractions. So using your logic, you would need 1000 Rolls (of 2 net hits) to debug all those RFID's and you likely STILL did not see the hidden Comlink in the morass of signals generated (because, you know, you only get to identify ONE RANDOM SIGNAL per Net Hit).

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 30 2015, 02:16 PM

Just wait for the HERF gun and EMP grenades...

Oh, wait, that'll totally gimp the hackers that whined that they had nothing to do in SR4 and before.

Posted by: apple Jul 30 2015, 02:28 PM

They will probably only work with wifi bonus. Probably "Wifi off: makes funny sounds / Wifi on: you can project an EM ray on one active item because to create an EMP ray takes too much computer power which cannot be delivered by an 800k cyberdeck. If you do that however you will fry your own devices and cyberware as well. Because, well, you are not as awesome as an Awakened".

SYL

Posted by: Isath Jul 30 2015, 02:40 PM

Agreed.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 30 2015, 02:44 PM

Indeed... Not sure who those Hackers were, though. If they had nothing to do, they were not trying hard enough. My Cyberlogician was always inundated with tasks in SR4, and nary an attack on cyberware was there to be seen on that list...

Posted by: Blade Jul 30 2015, 03:27 PM

Indeed, the problems I had, especially as a GM, was that hackers had too many things to do in combat, and more to the point that it took them far too many dice rolls (and quite often too many IPs) to do any of them.

Posted by: hermit Jul 30 2015, 10:03 PM

I can get behind that.

Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 31 2015, 02:06 AM

In the first Denver mission module the team encounters mafia hacker Dean Costello, who tries to initiate cyber combat with the team when things go sour. Last time I ran it for a party the face/technomancer pulled a gun and shot at him (piss poor skill and still actually scored an impressive hit); I had to pull some [legal] handwavium to make sure he didn't get killed in running away. Needless to say, when Dean showed up again in another mission he was not well liked.

Posted by: Smash Jul 31 2015, 02:54 AM

The problem with hackers has never really been about how much you can do, it's how much fun it is. While in 4th you could on occassion hack a forklift and use it to ram something or use environmental conrols to starve a room of oxygen, the majority of the things you're doing is turning lights on/off or openning/closing doors. While providing tactical advantage there's something to be said about direct actions over indirect actions. It's why almost every campaign (no need to state that yours is not, trust me it's the exception) is always heavy on for magicians, adepts and samurais, but generally light on for deckers, riggers, faces, etc. Generally each group has one sap who resigns to doing those jobs because they'd rather play than not,

There's something that's always been more appealing to Shadowrun players about shooting a gun or swinging a sword at bad guys. While a Decker can still do these things, they're not going to be very good at it (unless they're not particularly good at Decking). Giving them something that mimicks attacks that uses their skillset helps solve that.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 31 2015, 03:55 AM

Sorry Smash, if that's all you think hackers can do then I don't think you're playing them right.

You can always take control of any drones that security might send against you. Also you can hack into the opposition's comm network and have them run around like they were extras in a Monty Python skit. You can also make the enemy ambush their own security forces by changing the IFF on one group.

If you want to be extra sneaky, you can hack an account into the system and make it seem that your group (appropriately dressed of course) is SUPPOSE to be there. That would allow you to get through most of the security mooks without a single shot being fired.


One thing that IS needed for hackers in Shadowrun is that they need to be able to hack things faster. Taking 10 rounds to hack simple things is too damn long.

Posted by: Sendaz Jul 31 2015, 06:11 AM

This right here is the main issue.

But it is a hard balance to make as if they make it too fast/easy to hack, a good decker or TM will OWN everything in a heavy tech environment.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 31 2015, 06:34 AM

I preferred SR4's approach, where roles didn't demand quite as much in the way of skills and resources, and you saw more hybrid builds that could hack or face and fight. I'll be honest, though - even in SR5, I would still rather invest in a decent gun skill and a heavy pistol than use bricking (or leadership, for a face) in a fight.

Posted by: apple Jul 31 2015, 08:13 AM

So your game master does not use (for his NPCs):
- Tacnets (manipulated by edit)?
- Radio/Wifi Communication (manipulated by edit)?
- Support drones (hackable, corruptable)?
- SimSense/DNI controlled commlinks (hackable and spammable)?
- Wifi enabled equipment for incompentent NPCs?

Well ... perhaps you are looking at the problem from the wrong side?



Partially depending on the quality of rules for riggers and deckers in SR123 (especially 3). If you have a background in "awesome archetype but your rule subsystem sucks" you will not be appreciated immediately in a new edition. But when it comes to the integration of ab abstract matrix rule set combined with real world interaction during combat, there is only one rule system I can only recommend to check out: Cyberpunk 2020, second edition.

(to quickly sum up: real world mass hacking was 1 or 2 actions and you would hack every item in a radius of several hundred meters and could use it again the enemy, net hacking were indeed moving in "computer rooms" with a pseudo physical layout: http://www.abload.de/img/militech_netzwf1u.jpg , where firewalls were real walls and both netrunner and ICE moved around with a predetermined speed per round - like an infiltrator sneaking in, evading guard)

Everything SR5 tried and failed to achieve is found there: an abstract rule system for net runs and a clear and FAST combat/interaction system for real world combats. Netrunners in CP2020 were awesome. Because the designers thought about integration of members in the very basic design of the rules and the game. They even include text sessions for exactly this problem: how to integrate netrunners into combat with tips for GMs and players. Hell, even the computer games Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man Triggers & Dragonfall recognized that and implemented a real cyberspace and not simply a number array. SR4 only hat 2 (major) issues: the extended test system (but in the end it doe snot make much of a difference if you have to roll 4 times for an extended test or 4 times to get the marks up to the necessary stack= and the incomplete scalability of computer systems until WAR! (perhaps the only thing WAR did right).

And I wonder why the same argumentation does not count for faces? I still miss the rules for "I call you a homobophic faggot" and you have to roll damage resistance for the slurs I throw at you. I mean if you want a rule system completely disconnected from reality and believability and make every archetype being able to kill things in combat with their subrule system: why exactly don´t we have racial slurs with an assault cannon damage code? After all the authors accept any kind of nonsense as a rule system without any claim for quality, playability or making sense in any way (because abstract rule design seems to be the perfect excuse for online silencers these days).

And yes, don´t we all want faces killing enemies just by yelling at them? What makes them so special that deckers have the right to kill people with decking rules but faces cannot kill by calling them ISIS terrorists?



But it doesnt work out very well if you want to dive in into a believable world. The sad thing is: SR5 had all the things already prepared and integrated on how the hacker could have interacted during combat with awesome things without falling back to things like online silencers, online fingers, online batons or online air tanks.

Perhaps you want to take a look here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=40095&hl=

I firmly believe that this would fit into Shadowrun. I would even dare say that the idea of a short term psychotrope ICE attack via TacNet manipulation (hey, mind control for mundanes ...) is far more promising than hacking your online air tank, burning it up without doing any damage.

SYL

Posted by: apple Jul 31 2015, 08:26 AM

True - but there is an easy solution. Right now the system is 1 or 0. You have either total control (depending on your permissions) or you have no control. What about short term access ("you now have admin rights for ... 3 complex actions. Make it count!")?

SYL

Posted by: Redjack Jul 31 2015, 09:57 AM

I have GM'd a lot of Missions games at several different conventions (pretty much every year)and this statement is simply wrong, at least as far as selection of characters for Missions play is concerned.

And given that I've been in multiple campaigns that have not suffered from this and that you feel the need to try to state we're all exceptions to this... I'm not quite sure the word "exception" means what you think it means. (obviously snarky, but you get my point)

Posted by: apple Jul 31 2015, 10:14 AM

There are of course other games who picked up the idea of tacnets and what hackers can bring to the game (we all now that they don´t bring anything to the table besides being able to fake electronic data and cover up proof, subvert security system, gather all-importants information, hack drones, open doors, find and follow people across the globe, jump and get into action worldwide in a matter of seconds depending on the availability of networks and rent-a-drones, control the infrastructure, live a good life without paying for it and being a champ in matrix communities and media ...). Of course some of the game rules and world backgrounds are different, but the basic idea can be transported.

TLDR
1) Protect your own communication network.
2) Subvert and manipulate the enemy communication network.
3) Shut it down or give penalties to enemy actions (yeayh, 4-8 dices differences in SR4).
4) Hack drones, change them into kamikaze devices.
5) Use combat drones.
6) Use psychotrope ICE for mind control and blackhammer to kill the enemy hackerstyle
7) Spray the area with tags / nanites for indirect fire / bonuses for trog with the minigun. Subvert skinlinks with spray-tags and hack them via this improvised connection.

SYL

Posted by: hermit Jul 31 2015, 11:03 AM

And we all know 'fun' is an absolute metric that solely relies on the avialability of combat hacking without having to be creative, in ways such as apple outlined.


I trust you have data or a research paper to back this up?

Posted by: Sendaz Jul 31 2015, 11:19 AM

I like that.

But isn't part of this already incorporated into the Overwatch score? So maybe fleshing that side of it a bit better could serve to be the balance to whatever upgrade/housefules we add ito making actions faster/easier.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 31 2015, 12:54 PM

Can't remember a time where I spent more than a couple of rounds Hacking targets at any given time, really. Some things take longer than others, to be sure, but overall, I think that Hacking is often WAY TOO FAST for suspension of disbelief. I tend to get over it though.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 31 2015, 12:57 PM

Indeed... This cannot be said enough. A Shadowrunner who is incapable of holding his own in a physical fight is often a very dead Shadowrunner. Every Shadowrunner should be able to shoot a gun passably (Skill 2-3 in SR4, and Skill 4-5 in SR5) as well as being able to be somewhat stealthy. IF they are not, they are a detriment to the team.

Posted by: Betx Jul 31 2015, 01:21 PM

I'd jumped from 2nd edition to 5th edition, and one thing that jumped out at me was the lowering of attribute scores. Putting top priority into attributes in 2nd gave you an average of 5. In 5th, the top priority gives you an average of 4. That is somewhat mitigated by the 25-50 karma to be spent at character generation, as that can squeeze out a couple more points if you have a couple of low stats. One thing that I keep thinking is that slightly higher stat totals, while keeping the ‘no more than one attribute at racial max’ rule, could tend to make more balanced characters? Because mostly characters will raise up their most key attributes, so at a certain point having more attributes means that your less key stats go up noticeably.

However I don't know how that compares to 4th, so not sure how relevant that is the original topic.

==================================================

With regards to ‘what is fun’ I agree that there is tremendous variety of players. If you look at the mentor spirits Cat and Shark, I can assure you that for each there are players who think that it is unplayable, and players who think it doesn’t have a drawback worth mentioning, more of an incentive to do what they want to do anyway.

The problem is that different groups will have different mixes of players, so if the world is built to ‘require’ a certain mix of characters types, that is rough on a group that doesn’t have players interested in those roles (This is obviously not a new issue, there were plenty of D&D groups back in the day where nobody wanted to play a Cleric, or at least not a Cleric who put all their spell choices into healing). If the world tends to imply that you need a decker to function, but nobody in the group finds that role to be fun, that is a fault of a rigid game world/system, not the players for ‘not finding fun in the right roles.’

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 31 2015, 04:32 PM

That's only part of the problem. You not only need to do things faster, you need to be able to do them at the same time as other players. Because from your example hacker who makes party fake passes does it before the run? while during the run he just chills. That's why not one of the groups that I played with explored astral exploration - that's a one-character experience. But while a mage can be useful together with the group, hacker - not so much

Posted by: Glyph Aug 1 2015, 01:08 AM

Oh, SR5 did give faces "something to do" during combat. They can use the leadership skill to give bonuses to their teammates. Yep, faces are now the bards of Shadowrun.

Posted by: apple Aug 1 2015, 07:12 AM

Which is perfectly fine (a clear command and leadership can indeed work wonders when it comes to combat, especially when used with a tacnet). But that was the case for hackers/deckers before, at least if your GM was not playing 1980 gangwar with cybernetics but indeed 2070 with drones, tacnet and radio communication and you were a little bit creative.

So if now is the reasoning that the hacker can attack, damage and kill with the matrix rules, why is the bard not allowed to attack, damage and kill with racial slurs? I mean we are talking about a rule system which is explicitly designed to have nothing to do with reality.

SYL

Posted by: Serbitar Aug 1 2015, 07:35 AM

Where are those quotes from?

Posted by: apple Aug 1 2015, 07:38 AM

Ecplice Phase - Transhuman Sourcebook. In that specific case EP can be seen as SR in space as this chapter give details how a Firewall SpecOps Team in enemy territory can gain the upper hand.

SYL

Posted by: Smash Aug 3 2015, 06:11 AM

Agreed. In fact if you're good enough you could accomplish most things (Note 'most' is a qualifier, I'm not saying all) in 2 actions, that can both be taken in one combat pass.

Posted by: Smash Aug 3 2015, 06:17 AM

I didn't provide a comprehensive list of all the things you could possibly do as a hacker and therefore the 2 throw away things I listed are therefore the entirety of the things I think hackers could do.