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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ What's it worth to ya?
Posted by: 2XS Sep 3 2015, 07:58 AM
How much do you expect to get paid? How do you measure risk and determine appropriate compensation? I'm trying to run a 4th edition game for my wife and kids and I'm not seeing anything in my books. It's probably in the Companion; damn I need that book...
Posted by: Tias Sep 3 2015, 08:17 AM
Try to run a search, this has been brought up a lot.
Consider what something is worth to you, and the many factors.
A search and extraction might be worth 15,000 nuyen, being all arbitrary like. However, who is paying you? Tier 5 gangbangers may not have 15,000 (though they may pay you in contraband or drugs), while Proteus AG looking for one of their SOTA gene scientists may well ten-double that.
Are you going into somewhere dangerous? A trip to Chicago or Lagos would definitely merit danger pay, and a conscious negotiator could demand more. On the other hand, if you have to kidnap a civilian in a remote place at night, you may not get as much, because a professional should be able to do that easily. A sympathetic employer may well shell out for medical aid if they're sending you into hostile territory, and a bad one could ask it out your pay.
I must admit that I make up pay on the fly. The standard is around 10,000 per nose, on the assumption that a 400BP char is a professional, and that the employer is a corp or wealthy individual who isn't trying to double-cross them and who is interested in a job succesfully completed. If they have to fight or do something extremely hazardous (like infiltrate high-end corp tier or kick a syndicate in the nuts and run away), I jack up the pay and/or offer medical or hazard pay.
If you have a run planned out, let us know what it is, and we'll suggest pay, I guess?
Posted by: Kyrel Sep 3 2015, 03:09 PM
There isn't really any hard and fast guides for how much runners should be paid for a run, because it varies an awful lot, depending on both the Johnson, the run itself, the skill of the runners, and also very much the premise of the campaign. I've played in a campaign where we as players were never short of money or equipment, and I've played in another campaign where 5000/head was an unusually large payout for a run. At the end of the day it's up to the GM and the game he wants to run. There's a difference between campaigns where the players are gutterpunk squatters and campaigns where they are prime runners with High Lifestyles.
As suggested, give us a description of the run, and we'll give you a shot at what we believe something like that ought to pay.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2015, 03:41 PM
I suggest not going less than 5k 
per point of karma you expect to reward, special cases notwithstanding. I personally have done high-risk missions where the payout has been tens of thousands, with optional objectives that were worth thousands each. I had a group that did a 'run for me to kidnap old people from a nursing home - payout of about 5k a head, and they came back with like 30 people. I've also ran a few missions where people did Blood Mage/Toxic Shaman bounty 'runs for the 1 Million reward they pay out for live ones.
It really depends on the risk involved, the person hiring them, and what they're expecting.
What I did to start streamlining missions is the Three O's - Objective, Opposition, and Obstruction. What's the mission, who will they be encountering, and what can go wrong or what can make it harder?
It makes it really fast to plan runs. Here's a "real time" example:
That took all of about three or four minutes to formulate. It's not completed, but enough info is there right now to run it if you have to immediately. The good thing about that though is if you formulate quick 'runs like that you can create a lot of them quickly. If you have a lot on-hand, you can offer your players options of what 'runs their Fixer has for them.
"Yeah, we've got three online right now. There's a datasteal, payout of 20 grand, a B and E gig for 35, and some guy doing a missing persons for 30." Your players now have the option of what they want to do. If your players don't take the datasteal I just listed? You haven't determined what corp is against which corp, so you can just recycle the 'run for later, maybe change the payout a little.
This doesn't quite work for a metaplot you want to run, but it certainly helps fill out some side missions or other relative downtime between crazy-designed 'runs.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2015, 03:45 PM
Pament depending on Job 3D6+2x1000 PER HEAD.
Bonus if available 2D6+3x1000 for the Team.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2015, 03:53 PM
Bonus if available (2D6+3)x1000 for the Team.
Is that right?
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 3 2015, 07:08 PM
I have some of the original missions downloaded from before they were payed for and use them as a guideline for some of my payouts for missions. And as it was mentioned above; you don't always have to (fully) pay in as the cash may not be available but goods and services (with negotiations favoring a discount on them) are available or the possibility of a new contact for the party (maybe the mission is a favor from a friend of a friend).
*Neraph* I love the posted idea and I'm going to have to start using your method some. I see how it could also work for to fill in some of the metaplot gaps as well. (especially if the players don't know that all the mission are from the same corp and they are being manipulated. 
)
Posted by: 2XS Sep 3 2015, 08:38 PM
Neraph, you're my hero. I shouldn't even post here, just PM all my questions to you.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2015, 09:23 PM
Urm... from my Favorites archives:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=26743&hl=design
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=35191
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29647
After a year or so of running a 4th Ed campaign I wanted to simplify and speed up mission making. That lead to my development of the 3 O's. After that I always had 3+ missions waiting for the 'running team.
Heck, at one point I even had this weird game going where my players each had multiple characters that all shared the same Fixer, which each roleplayed. The beginning of the session was the Johnson (me) giving their Fixers (them) the job. Then their Fixers (the players) decided which of their contacts (the actual PCs) they wanted to send on the mission.
It allowed the players to try out multiple different character types and to custom tailor their response to what they thought the mission required. It didn't always work out perfectly (part of the Obstruction phase also includes misinformation), and towards the end of it each group member typically chose one particular Runner as his favorite, but they had a blast doing it.
Posted by: 2XS Sep 4 2015, 12:15 AM
I thought about doing something similar. My actual character was going to be a Face with Shadowrunners as Contacts. Then I'd call up whoever was appropriate for the 'run and roll with them. I thought it might curb my Altoholism. 
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 4 2015, 01:44 PM
My rule of thumb is:
Figure out what Mr. Johnson rode to the meet. Did he arrive in a Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit, in a chauffeured BMW, in a limousine, or in a helicopter.
Bare minimum should be fenced goods value of that vehicle per head.
This does, of course, assume that the job in question is commensurate with the kind of clout Mr. Johnson has, which in turn, should correlate loosely with both his resources and the kind of work he has for you.
If he shows up in a Jackrabbit, then he's probably not hiring on behalf of anyone but himself. The pay won't be good, but the job is probably something simple like "the local gang kidnapped my daughter and is holding her for ransom, I'd rather pay you guys to get her back and blow up/steal their guns." The kind of thing where you can do the legwork and complete the run in one night.
If he arrived in a helicopter, then the job will be very dangerous, very high level, take a lot of time and energy, or a combination thereof, and the pay should be commensurate with that.
If he arrived in a motorcycle with an Ancients escort, then he's either an Ancients Lt., or is the elderly CEO of Harley-Davidson.
Posted by: Iduno Sep 4 2015, 02:51 PM
How do you figure nuyen:karma ratio? Do you decide the ratio you want on average, then tack on overhead like lifestyle and burned SINs?
Knowing that ahead of time would make it easier to use the pay and that ratio as a basis for the karma payout. Probably more karma for hooding and less for selling your soul, but at least it's a start.
Great, now you've got me wanting to watch Fletch.
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 4 2015, 02:54 PM
Figure out what Mr. Johnson rode to the meet. Did he arrive in a Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit, in a chauffeured BMW, in a limousine, or in a helicopter.
Bare minimum should be fenced goods value of that vehicle per head.
This does, of course, assume that the job in question is commensurate with the kind of clout Mr. Johnson has, which in turn, should correlate loosely with both his resources and the kind of work he has for you.
If he shows up in a Jackrabbit, then he's probably not hiring on behalf of anyone but himself. The pay won't be good, but the job is probably something simple like "the local gang kidnapped my daughter and is holding her for ransom, I'd rather pay you guys to get her back and blow up/steal their guns." The kind of thing where you can do the legwork and complete the run in one night.
If he arrived in a helicopter, then the job will be very dangerous, very high level, take a lot of time and energy, or a combination thereof, and the pay should be commensurate with that.
If he arrived in a motorcycle with an Ancients escort, then he's either an Ancients Lt., or is the elderly CEO of Harley-Davidson.
.......
I can't....
I just can't....
Swiss Cheese anyone?
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 4 2015, 03:00 PM
Knowing that ahead of time would make it easier to use the pay and that ratio as a basis for the karma payout. Probably more karma for hooding and less for selling your soul, but at least it's a start.
Great, now you've got me wanting to watch Fletch.
I hear that roughly 5k
to 1 karma is a decent ratio depending on difficulty/length of mission . Don't be afraid to allow for an expense budget (compensate for equipment cost but they don't get to keep the extra) or provide some equipment at discount if the party is lacking for the mission (maybe give them 2nd hand used equipment that will last long enough to do the one mission, etc)You don't always have to pay in
maybe they will get a higher pay if the take equipment/drug/bonds etc..
Posted by: Neraph Sep 4 2015, 05:48 PM
to 1 karma is a decent ratio depending on difficulty/length of mission . Don't be afraid to allow for an expense budget (compensate for equipment cost but they don't get to keep the extra) or provide some equipment at discount if the party is lacking for the mission (maybe give them 2nd hand used equipment that will last long enough to do the one mission, etc)You don't always have to pay in
maybe they will get a higher pay if the take equipment/drug/bonds etc..30% payout front is usually a standard my groups try for. This can also be Negotiated.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 4 2015, 07:18 PM
I can't....
I just can't....
Swiss Cheese anyone?
What?
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 4 2015, 08:33 PM
Exploits as a Mr J.
I know party will expect pay based on what I drive.
So I roll up in a rabbit.
Posted by: Sendaz Sep 5 2015, 12:24 AM
Yeah but if the job and the ride don't jibe, that can also raise flags or at least require more money upfront than normal because you might suspect he may or may not be able to pay up the rest after the run.
And that's assuming you are not being used as a throwaway pawn, whether acting as a decoy for another team or just plain suicide run-being used by a ladder climbing exec who wants to get brownie points by 'catching' the team he himself sent in for example, and the Johnson doesn't expect you to survive to pick up the rest.
Posted by: Tias Sep 5 2015, 06:45 AM
This is why I based my standard cost with respects to whether the Johnson is A) a professional and B) interested in whether the job suceeds.
If he wants the runners dead or caught, then he could conceivably justify paying them less to himself, but that means that A) a perceptive runner could wonder why he's being short-changed and ask the Johnson to go slot himself, and B) the Jonhson may be better off paying a bunch of greenhorns or chipheads peanuts to do the same thing.
Posted by: binarywraith Sep 5 2015, 12:31 PM
I look at it this way. The money needs to be more than the characters can make jacking cars/making telesma/robbing passersby for the weekend.
The easiest way to know if you're in the right range is to figure up what your whole team is paying in Lifestyle a month. Add in a bit for necessary expenses and then another 10-15% on top as 'profit'. Divide out by however many runs you want them to have to pull a month.
That seems to keep teams pretty lean and hungry while still making it practical for them make major upgrades every so often. Throwing in a windfall here or there makes that easier, as well.
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 5 2015, 01:47 PM
The easiest way to know if you're in the right range is to figure up what your whole team is paying in Lifestyle a month. Add in a bit for necessary expenses and then another 10-15% on top as 'profit'. Divide out by however many runs you want them to have to pull a month.
That seems to keep teams pretty lean and hungry while still making it practical for them make major upgrades every so often. Throwing in a windfall here or there makes that easier, as well.
If each character is making roughly 15k
per run then that roughly satisfies the requirement set even with a medium lifestyle. This would also allow for the replacement of basic equipment and the purchase of minor equipment. But good grief they would never actually replace a heavy loss such as a vehicle, or (5thed) cyberdeck/(4thed) High-end commlink let alone add more chrome.What makes things interesting is when they start trying to figure out inventive ways to make more money.
Posted by: apple Sep 5 2015, 03:56 PM
https://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/shadowrun-der-lohn-der-angst/
Simply one of the best guidelines out there. Use Google translate. Or the very short version
Milk Runs: 1k per person
Easy runs: 5k per person
Normal runs: 10+k per person
Elite runs: 50k minimum per person
modified by reputation
Scum: 1/4 of the payment
Noob: 1/4 of the payment
Semi-Pro: 1/2 of the payment
Shadowpunk: normal payment
Professional: +50%
Vet: x2
Elite x4
God x10
Johnson guideline: total cost of a run should not be higher than 25% of the reward/gain/payout for the Johnson/company/organisation/master.
Works perfectly in new and high karma groups.
SYL
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 5 2015, 04:18 PM
Simply one of the best guidelines out there. Use Google translate. Or the very short version
Milk Runs: 1k per person
Easy runs: 5k per person
Normal runs: 10+k per person
Elite runs: 50k minimum per person
modified by reputation
Scum: 1/4 of the payment
Noob: 1/4 of the payment
Semi-Pro: 1/2 of the payment
Shadowpunk: normal payment
Professional: +50%
Vet: x2
Elite x4
God x10
Johnson guideline: total cost of a run should not be higher than 25% of the reward/gain/payout for the Johnson/company/organisation/master.
Works perfectly in new and high karma groups.
SYL
I like this as a guide. Awesomeness is a Forum.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Sep 5 2015, 08:11 PM
per run then that roughly satisfies the requirement set even with a medium lifestyle. This would also allow for the replacement of basic equipment and the purchase of minor equipment. But good grief they would never actually replace a heavy loss such as a vehicle, or (5thed) cyberdeck/(4thed) High-end commlink let alone add more chrome.What makes things interesting is when they start trying to figure out inventive ways to make more money.
And by "Interesting" you mean it leads to them stealing everything that isn't secured to the ground, bearing in mind that if it can be dislodged with a pry-bar, it's insufficiently secured. It also leads to players who start with Tamanous contacts because they know that to the right sort of people, corpses can be exchanged for nuyen.
Which in turn becomes a self-feeding cycle, as the GM starts short-charging their run payouts because he knows they're going to find ways to monetize things he never intended for them to monetize, which in turn makes them become even more inventive at monetizing shit because holy fuck, he wants you to steal an Ares prototype laser for 5,000
are you kidding me?
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 5 2015, 08:15 PM
Which in turn becomes a self-feeding cycle, as the GM starts short-charging their run payouts because he knows they're going to find ways to monetize things he never intended for them to monetize, which in turn makes them become even more inventive at monetizing shit because holy fuck, he wants you to steal an Ares prototype laser for 5,000
are you kidding me?Naaa... One of their runs was a corp disruption so they end up knocking over some big rigs and sold everything. Then told Mr J to keep the money and bought chrome at a discount from them.
They were not two-bit thieves.... They were shadow runners....
Well, until one ended in a coma after I had a sniper put a round in his head and their rigger was unidentifiable after a missile went into his car.
And before anyone gets huffy about me killing PC's... They made a mistake; they got caught by the wrong person wanting revenge for the death of a loved one.
Posted by: Blade Sep 7 2015, 11:48 AM
Fluff-wise, this depends a lot on the premise of your campaign.
Payouts will be largely different if runners are supposed to be high-profile mercenaries who could get a high paying steady job in a corp or a criminal syndicate if they wanted or if they're supposed to be desperate punks who've got the choice between a miserable life as slaves to some criminal syndicate or taking on shadowruns.
Crunch-wise, payouts will have an impact on the character improvement. Pay them too little but give karma generously, and Awakened will improve much faster than gear-oriented characters. And even if you pay them generously, if one player likes to spend most of it in booze, babes and blackjack while another player spends it only to get new ware/drones/hacking stuff, they'll improve at very different rates.
That's why I'm in favor of having character improvement be unrelated to the actual payouts. (For example you can set a karma/nuyen exchange rate, and have only the nuyens bought with karma be usable to buy improvements.) This way, you can have any kind of payout without throwing balance/character improvement out of the window
Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2015, 01:21 PM
I didn't know you were a comedian.
Posted by: KnightAries Sep 7 2015, 01:40 PM
Yea, there's always one in the group somewhere.
Posted by: Blade Sep 7 2015, 03:39 PM
@Neraph: I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2015, 06:46 PM
Some extra karma here or there by no means allows awakened to advance faster. Holy crap, the sheer karma-drain that it is to simply think about advancing as a mage is daunting.
13 karma for Initiate Grade 1.
16 for Grade 2
If you want to increase your Magic then it's 35 karma or more.
5 karma per spell.
New Rating x 4 for every single skill you want to raise, which are all the mundane ones that everyone else needs, plus five (eight if you do spirits).
If anything, granting more karma than nuyen helps mages stay competitive with mundanes. And even then, all that extra karma that the mundanes are getting that they don't have to spend on Magic-related things is going directly to making them more impressive in their own fields.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2015, 06:57 PM
5 Karma per Spell Neraph... It is only 3 Karma in Character Generation.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2015, 06:59 PM
I was close. Like I said, I've been out of the loop for three years. I'll fix it.
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