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Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 17 2017, 09:01 AM

OK, last new topic for this week... I promise.

How much does a modular cyberlimb cost Essence wise? I can't figure this out.

Does it cost Essence for the connector and then more Essence for the cyberlimb that connects?

Posted by: Jack_Spade Jul 17 2017, 09:08 AM

You have the choice:
Either you spend essence or capacity from your limb to add the connector.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Jul 17 2017, 09:31 AM

And yes, you still have to pay the essence cost for the limb that is connected.

SO: Either you pay an extra X essence to have a modular connector installed in addition to the limb.

OR: You buy the cyberlimb as a modular one, resulting in it having a lower capacity.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 17 2017, 02:10 PM

Thank you for the quick replies.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 17 2017, 05:41 PM

Just use my rules http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=41814&view=findpost&p=1331455. Nice and simple.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Jul 17 2017, 08:40 PM

If by "simple" you mean completely bypassing all of the rules and mechanics that Essence serves as a balance and cost for cyberware, sure...

Not to mention that "location-based essence costs" isn't what this was about. It was asking what the additional costs are involved with making a cyberlimb modular.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 17 2017, 08:53 PM

The canon rules for Essence are crack-headed, so I fixed them, and no apologies for doing so. My approach also puts mundanes on a more even playing field with the Awakened by allowing full-body conversions without any of that whole "cyber-zombie" nonsense.


And yet my rules account for this quite neatly and easily, and on a single small chart. Missing arm or cyberarm (fixed or modular) is 0.30 Essence, as it accounts for 4.96% of total body volume. Missing leg or cyberleg (modular or not) is 0.96 Essence, as it accounts for 15.98% of total body volume. This is a better measurement than canon's method of "let's pull numbers out of our ass."

Posted by: Kiirnodel Jul 18 2017, 03:48 AM

You're welcome to think that your percentage of body-mass definition for essence is less "crack-headed" but since Essence isn't defined solely by the percent of your body that's been replaced with cyber/bioware I won't be among the people who agree with you.

It also has nothing to do with the question that was posed for this particular thread. By "account for this" you seem to mean that it completely ignores the different options and will just charge essence based solely on whether or not the limb has been replaced. I've seen your thread about location based essence costs, and I think that applying a discount down to only .3 essence for a full-limb replacement isn't better, nor balanced.

I didn't go to your thread to try and discount how your houserule was bad, so I would appreciate it if you didn't try to come into this legitimate rules question thread and try to argue how your arbitrary houserule should apply in some way.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 18 2017, 04:09 AM

This isn't your thread, it's KCKitsune's, and I offered him an alternative. Don't like, don't read.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 20 2017, 01:14 AM

I do think it is nonsensical that the modular shoulder mount cost essence while the others could potentially instead reduce the capacity of the detachable limb. Why would the should mount require additional reinforcement instead of disconnecting below the cyber shoulder?

As far as house rules go, I saw somewhere an alternative where you have an Essence loss stat instead of Essence which was neat.

JanessaVR, body mass is an interesting approach, but I feel it discounts the neurological or lymphatic impact of a replacement.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Jul 20 2017, 03:20 AM

Sort of correct, there are a few things coming into play here that aren't very well explained in the book, but I've seen multiple conversations about it, including the developer/writer of the section for Chrome Flesh chiming in about how it is supposed to work.

Basically, it works as such:
To have a limb be modular you need to have either:
a) A modular connector or
b) The limb must be designed as modular.

If the limb is designed as modular, the extra cost of the modular-ness is built into the limb losing some capacity. You can do this for any level (Full, Partial, or just hand/foot), and the cost of Capacity scales with the size. If you take this route, it's a done-deal, nothing else you need to do.

If you buy a modular connector, it allows you to buy the appropriate limb and connect it. For example, a modular Shoulder mount lets you attach a full arm, elbow a partial arm, etc. This option, rather than removing capacity from the limb being attached, costs essence or takes up capacity where the mount is being installed.

The elbow and wrist mounts have capacity costs, which allow them to be installed in an already cyberlimb. For example, a full limb could have a modular wrist installed, which allows you to then attach different hands. The Shoulder doesn't have a limb to install into, so it doesn't have a capacity allowance. I could see potential arguments for allowing it to take up capacity in a cybertorso, but I think the argument there is that the cybertorso is just a casing, so the modular mount would still take up part of the "user"

Posted by: Cabral Jul 21 2017, 01:55 AM

The problem with the way it is "supposed" to work is that, if I recall correctly, there is no capacity cost for a shoulder mount implying that the capacity is for use in subdividing a cyberlimb, not for absorbing the mount in the cyberlimb itself.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Jul 24 2017, 04:29 AM

Sorry, was out of contact for a few days...

I mention the parts that concern that aspect, Cabral. The way it is "supposed" to work, the modular mounts are essentially for subdividing a cyberlimb into "sub-modular" parts, yes. Absorbing the mount into the limb itself is the route of buying the limb as originally modular. Spending the money to buy a modular version of the limb comes with the additional cost of the limb having less capacity than normal. This has the effect of essentially costing some capacity for the limb to be modular.

You can't install a shoulder mount into your limb, that would be the equivalent of trying to install your shoulder into your upper-arm, that doesn't work. Which is why the Shoulder mount doesn't have a capacity cost.

Posted by: Cabral Aug 1 2017, 11:00 PM

It works as well as a knee mount and makes more sense than extending the cyberlimb further into your torso (with no discounts for cybertorso or bone lacing). Just below the joint, the connector starts. You swap out the limb below that point. Mysteriously, you need extra girding, a lot of extra girding for shoulder mount when logically, there should be no extra strain beyond the mount. The mount is the weak point, not your rib cage. There is no need for additional reinforcement beyond a standard cyberlimb so a modular limb should only need to cost capacity. (I would argue that it should only ever cost capacity, but you have the option to buy capacity which may incur an essence cost always or only after a certain point.)

Cyberlimbs need options to make them effective and desirable; this is poorly thought out and mostly pointless as written.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Aug 2 2017, 04:26 AM

I think there is a misunderstanding going on. I've been trying to explain how there is a way to represent having the mount built in just below the joint. That's when you purchase it as a modular limb, then the mounting to make it modular is built in, which is why modular limbs have less capacity.

I'll work my way up from the hand, going through a full arm. It works almost the same in a leg, just use the appropriate equivalent joints/limb parts.

Hand: You can install a modular hand directly, which results in a loss of 1 capacity in the hand, but no additional essence cost.
You can also install a modular connector in your wrist, which lets you mount a cyberhand directly; this costs 2,000 nuyen and 0.1 essence. Alternatively you can also install the modular connector in an existing cyberlimb, which allows you to essentially remove that limb's hand at the wrist and have a mount for a new one instead (5 capacity).

Partial(Lower) Arm: You can install a modular partial arm directly, which means it can be swapped out just below the elbow for another modular limb (just like the hand), but buying it this way takes up 2 capacity in the lower arm (but again, not a higher essence cost).
Or you can buy a modular connector for your elbow, which lets you mount a lower arm directly; 4k nuyen and .2 essence. Or install that in an existing full arm, which costs 10 capacity, again most of that is probably representative of it removing that portion of the arm (an obvious lower arm, for example has 10 capacity).

Full Arm: Again, you can buy it as originally modular, meaning it disconnects at or just below the shoulder, but you lose 3 capacity from the overall limb (essence cost still same).
Of you can install a modular connector in the shoulder (0.3 essence, 6k nuyen). This option doesn't have a capacity option because there isn't a limb to install it in.

If you're installing a brand new cyberlimb, and you want it to be modular, just purchase it as the modular option. It costs a little bit extra, but the "modular-ness" is taken care of in the form of less capacity in the limb. The limbs you swap it in/out with, would be the same way.

If a GM wants to allow a modular connector for your shoulder to be installed as part of a cybertorso (taking up capacity in the cybertorso), that would be relatively reasonable. I would put the capacity cost in that case at [3]. I think they made a decision to not allow this on purpose, but people can make decisions to change things for their own games as they see fit.

Posted by: Cabral Aug 3 2017, 03:38 AM

I like that interpretation better, but it is strange that the difference in capacity costs is so great.

On purpose. Ha!

Posted by: Kiirnodel Aug 3 2017, 04:42 AM

Well, it isn't a different interpretation, it's the same thing I've been saying all along, just laid out a bit more explicitly.

I think what you are calling a difference in capacity costs is covered by the fact that, as I pointed out, the capacity cost of the modular connector also has to cover the capacity that the limb is losing when you essentially chop off the rest of the limb from that joint down. I think they opted to have it be part of the capacity of the connector rather than have some sort of drawn-out explanation of how to calculate the capacity of just one part of the limb. And again, that's the same reason that Shoulder/hip connectors don't have a capacity cost: because they don't have a limb to take up space in. Remember, you don't install that connector in the limb that is going to be attached, you put it in the limb it is going to be attached to.

So, a Full Obvious Arm has 15 capacity, installing a modular connector at the wrist costs 10 of that capacity. This essentially leaves you with an upper arm (with 5 capacity left), and just a stump at the elbow. But you can then attach a lower arm which would have its own capacity (10 in the case of obvious, or only 5 for synthetic). Same sort of thing happens with a wrist and hand (costs 5 capacity, and then you get back 4/2 when you attach the new hand).

Posted by: Cabral Aug 5 2017, 05:53 AM

It is different than the my interpretation of the printed rules. The descriptions of modular mounts and limbs (and gear) strongly imply that they are meant to be used together. So a full cyberlimb with a modular connector at the elbow would lose 8 capacity (for the mount) and the forearm cyber limb would lose 2 capacity for being a modular limb.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Aug 8 2017, 05:32 AM

That's what I thought at first too, before Wakshaani posted about how that wasn't the intent. And even still that didn't seem that bad. I figured that was the cost of being able to hot-swap out the limbs.

The Capacity loss for the mounts in a limb is primarily to represent the replacement of the rest of that limb for the separate modular limb. Even using that system, you would have a Full cyberlimb with the elbow connector (10 capacity btw). Attaching the modular lower arm would be 8 capacity added back on (10-2 for modular). So you would only have a net loss of 2 capacity, which is the cost of having the modular limb in the first place. You aren't actually losing any capacity (other than the cost of making the limb modular) because the extra piece you're attaching has it's own capacity that you're adding back on.

You seem to be focusing on fact that the mount takes up a bunch of capacity, when it is really just representing the fact that you no longer have that section of the limb to put things in. You chopped off the limb at the elbow and put on a socket to attach a separate lower arm, you can't install anything in that lower arm as part of the original limb's capacity so it loses that amount of capacity.

Posted by: Cabral Aug 9 2017, 12:12 AM

I did not look at it that way since I was focusing on the shoulder mount and your analysis does not work for the shoulder mount. Minus .5 essence is just representing the fact that you no longer have that section of your cyberarm? The other mounts seem more feasible.

Posted by: Kiirnodel Aug 9 2017, 12:43 AM

Well, a Shoulder Mount is only .3 essence, not .5 if that's what you're referring to. If not, I have no idea what you meant with that comment.

And it represents cutting off your entire arm as well as replacing your shoulder joint with a mount where you can quickly attach and detach a cyberlimb or even completely foreign tools that have been adapted to be used with the modular mount.

Posted by: Cabral Aug 9 2017, 02:37 AM

I did not recall the cost correctly. If you can just pay for a modular arm, why would you buy a mount?

Posted by: Kiirnodel Aug 9 2017, 03:10 AM

Well, according to the interpretation that Wakshaani shared, the difference is that with the mount, you don't have to make the limb modular, which means it doesn't lose any capacity.

So the choice is a) pay for the mount, which costs extra essence; or b) pay for the modular limb, which has less capacity.

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 22 2017, 04:59 AM

One of these days, I'm going to take a whole day off of work and write out exactly how those things are supposed to work. It should be easy, but I flubbed the description. Grump.

So, you have a couple of different options here.

One: Buy a modular connector at your fleshy shoulder, elbow, or wrist, paying the essence cost for the connector. This allows you to use a cyber arm, partial arm, or hand (respectively), paying the normal cost for the limb in both nuyen and Essence.

Two: Build a modular connector into your cyberlimb at the shoulder, elbow, or wrist. This lowered the capacity of that limb but costs no essence.

At this point, you can swap anything "south" of the connector.

You can also combine/chain connectors, so that you could have, for example, a shoulder connector, allowing you to use several different arms, and one of them has a wrist connector, allowing that arm to use different hands.

At that point, you start plugging things in and out like an action figure.