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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Quick Deck Construction Question

Posted by: Cray74 May 19 2004, 11:33 PM

How do you calculate the legality of a cyberdeck?

pg56 of Matrix mentions legal cyberterminals have an MPCP rating 4 or less, while cyberdecks have a higher MPCP rating and/or masking & evasion attributes. Is there anything else?

pg303 of SR3 mentions a flat 4P-S for all cyberdecks. Is that it?

Posted by: SimpleRunner May 19 2004, 11:41 PM

The things that make the deck illegal are as follows:

MPCP 5 or higher
Any Deck with Evasion
Any Deck with Masking
*Source Matrix p56

Posted by: hobgoblin May 20 2004, 12:02 AM

mpcp 5+ is licencable i think...
evasion is allso licencable to any security decker or similar...
masking on the other hand is there to override the very security of the matrix so well its most likely military and goverment only at best...

Posted by: Cray74 May 20 2004, 12:15 AM

Yes, but does the legality code vary other than "legal" or "4P-S"?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 20 2004, 01:40 AM

dont think so...
infact i wonder why the to spot is 4 as that kinda low for something that is connected to chips inside a caseing (that is unless you see someone with a term on the street and ask him for permit that is)...

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 20 2004, 03:44 AM

That's the TN to decide to do something about it once it's been identified, however that processes happens to occur.

~J

Posted by: Cray74 May 20 2004, 10:12 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

That's the TN to decide to do something about it once it's been identified, however that processes happens to occur.

~J

Follow-up deck question:

How would a police officer know to inspect a cyberdeck?

I mean, say I have my legal (wink wink) Allegiance-Alpha cyberdeck. (Well, it has an MPCP-12, Masking-10, and Evasion-10 uber-deck inside an A-A casing.) Mr. Cop pulls me over, sees the cyberdeck sitting on the passenger seat, and...

How would he inspect it? Look for the "street legal weefle decker" stamp on the back? If he opened it, would he be able to recognize that it was a non-legal deck, since it's just chips like any other deck?

Posted by: Xirces May 20 2004, 01:49 PM

I got the impression from (earlier edition) fluff that anyone carrying round a cyberdeck was likely to get questioned - there aren't enough legitimate reasons or users of mobile terminals to not do that. Anyone with valid access to systems would be quite happy to leave a datatrail by using valid terminals wherever they happened to be (home/work/beach) and wouldn't need to carry one around with them...

Hence the use of C^2 and (before that) resource carriers.

Posted by: Cray74 May 20 2004, 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Xirces)

Er...aren't cyberterminals just personal portable computers with good ASIST interfaces? The midway point between pocket computers and home computers?

Pocket secretaries and public terminals are nice, but I'd still want a decent, private computer where I could download my por-...er, email, have enough Mp's to run a decent simsense-intensive computer game, etc. Isn't that what legal cyberterminals are for?

Posted by: Xirces May 20 2004, 04:18 PM

Possibly - I think the important think is the ASIST inferface. What makes a cyberterminal different from a computer (since computing power is measured purely in MP I make no distinction between portable or not, other than desktop PCs can have greater potential power)?

It's even more odd when you look at rules for tortoises. If that's just a deck without the ASIST doesn't that just make it a computer..?

I personally find it rather odd that whilst we're seeing convergence of devices in 2004 that in 205x onwards they've reverted to having specialised devices for various tasks (but then most of the electronic devices in SR are rubbish anyway).
Surely if CorpAccountant uses a cyberterminal at work that would become his standard tool - it's either portable, or fixed (in which case he's likely got one similar at home if he needs that do do his job). If it's the former then every man and woman on the street would probably be carrying round a terminal and identifying a deck is nigh on impossible, if the latter then only those up to no good would be carrying one around.

I guess with the general mood of the sixth world and the use of the term wage-slave that large offices with lots of workers are in vogue again (home-working is only a fad). Do the workers want tools to take home? Do the corps want the no-good money grabbing fools to take expensive equipment home with them?

Questions, questions...

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 20 2004, 04:38 PM

Home-working is far from a fad, it's in many ways the norm of SR. Difference is, instead of taking your work home, you now live at work.

~J

Posted by: Fahr May 20 2004, 04:45 PM

I would expect that an officer could link up a diagnostic device to the input port and find out if it is above the "bounds". if it was, than he arrests you, and leaves it to DA to figure out how far out of bounds it is.

or he may not hassle you at all if you don't look odd.

just my 2 cents.

-Mike R.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 20 2004, 04:53 PM

about the convergence vs specialized devices. i would rather have many small devices that do one job but do it nicely (kinda like the philosophy behind the unix shell) but then allow diffrent devices to be hooked together ot exchange info so that i can use my digical camera to take a picture (and maybe manipulete it in some easy ways) and then transmitt it to my mobil phone that will act as the relay and send it on to a email account or webpage or whatever. but this will only happen when the hardware and software corps stop comeing up with new ways to push items that lock you to theyre solutions...

allso remeber that the original shadowrun was created while cyberpunk was strong on its own and in a time when mobile phones where about ot go from being a battery with a carrying handle and a handset to being something you could put in your breifcase (hell its only the last 5 or so years that they have become pocket sized)...

take a look at the chromebooks for cyberpunk 2020. most of the stuff there will look dated or bulky compared to what we have now most of the time, atleast when it comes to portable electronics...

and didnt they just errata a lot of the consealability ratings?

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 20 2004, 05:02 PM

I've got a PDA from 1992 that's decidedly more concealable than a heavy pistol, but you're right, that was recently fixed.

~J

Posted by: Cray74 May 20 2004, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (Fahr)

Why do I suddenly have this image of an agent in the cyberdeck backing up into the corner of the MPCP as a virtual fiber optic probe comes sniffing through the cyberdeck's circuits?

So, what's the gizmo's rating? I'd bet it'd be extremely easy for a cyberdeck with that security utility to fake lower software ratings and hide circuits with naughty firmware on them. Lower the clockspeed, hide most of the active memory, open a switch to accelerator circuitry and hardening so they can't be "seen," etc.

Posted by: JaronK May 20 2004, 07:52 PM

Wait, where did they errata the concealabilities?

JaronK

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime May 20 2004, 08:11 PM

Standard cyberterminals have a legality rating of Legal (Matrix p. 167) whereas cyberdecks (any deck with Masking or Evasion) has the 4P-S legality.

Cyberterminals (as described on SR3 p. 207) are also very rare as most corporations aren't going to hand one out to their employees, so it's going to raise an eyebrow any time one is encountered. For day-to-day computing by the vast majority of the population, a Desktop, Pocket, or Wrist Computer (all three of which are very distinct from a cyberterminal) would be used while hardcore cyberterminals are either at home or at the office.

All that aside, the legality code for a cyberdeck is pretty straight-forward (even if a bit lame). Anytime a security/police officer or anyone else of that caliber spots a cyberterminal, and since they don't have a Concealability rating as far as I know it's a given that they will if you're carrying one around, they get to make a Security/Police Procedures test with a TN of 4. If they make it, bam, they know it's a cyberdeck and will ask to see a permit; no hardware diagnostics required. If they fail, they'll assume it's a legal cyberterminal and never bother you unless you wander by with it again.

So apparently there is something distinct and suspicious about a cyberdeck versus a cyberterminal even if the rules themselves don't come out and say as much. Maybe they require a larger power pack, have more ports, or just hum differently than a legal cyberterminal. Whatever it is, people trained to spot the difference manage to do so with an almost absurd about of ease. But since it doesn't matter if it has Masking or not, they can't actually tell that it's an illegal cyberdeck or just one used by a security decker (with Evasion), it's obviously something superficial.

In my games, I actually jacked the legality up to 8P-S and require a Matrix Security Procedures check to spot the superficial difference, making it hard but possible. Officers can default to Police/Security Proceudres, but that just increases the code to 10P making it that much more difficult (with any other positive modification to the code making it impossible to default to). For hardware diagnostics, I'd just pit the deck's Masking rating against a scanner's rating in an Opposed Test. If the Masking wins, it just appears to be a security deck with Evasion and a high-end MPCP which is legal with a permit. Otherwise, the Masking is detected and no permit's gonna help you.

Posted by: Cray74 May 20 2004, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

For day-to-day computing by the vast majority of the population, a Desktop, Pocket, or Wrist Computer (all three of which are very distinct from a cyberterminal) would be used while hardcore cyberterminals are either at home or at the office.

I need to get back to work on my PocketDeck.

"What's that in my pocket, officer? Why, I'm just happy to see-...I'm joking, joking! Put the gun away! It's my PocketSecretary is all. See? Standard 2061 Sony PocketSec. That's all. It's not like it could be a disguised cyberdeck..."

Posted by: Nikoli May 20 2004, 08:36 PM

That'd be a funny joke for an otaku

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 20 2004, 08:46 PM

We have an Otaku who goes around with a cardboard box with the word "Deck" written on it.

~J

Posted by: Nikoli May 20 2004, 08:49 PM

Did something similair, had an NPC decker with a maxxed out C^2 with an int of 10.... Had a "bread board" case with a barrier rating of 8, inside was just a pass though cable. He always had cover...

Posted by: Necro Tech May 20 2004, 11:49 PM

Playing a decker for some time now gives me the idea that portable decks aren't very common on the street. Why? You still need to plug the thing in. Its nigh useless as a computer and lets face it, if you run pure DNI your deck will lack a keyboard. Sure you can go wireless....... for a boat load of nuyen. You need the program, the interface and the actual wireless component. Security sucks and no corp manager in their right mind would let employees log onto wwm.Mitsuhama.com/labexperiments/crimesagainsthumanity from their cell phone. Keep the decks in house because if I saw someone carrying a deck on the street I would mug them for their RAM, propritary software and encoded firmware.

Posted by: Cray74 May 21 2004, 12:33 AM

QUOTE (Necro Tech)

Sure you can go wireless....... for a boat load of nuyen. You need the program, the interface and the actual wireless component.

I just priced out a deck with a rating-8 cell interface, and it was pretty cheap compared to a Fairlight Excaliber. Like 4000 nuyen for the device and a free utility written by the decker?

QUOTE

Keep the decks in house

The better for security agencies to find your home, of course.

QUOTE

because if I saw someone carrying a deck on the street I would mug them for their RAM, propritary software and encoded firmware.

Given how easy and cheap it is for deckers to pack improved initiative and a high firearms skill of some form, the mugger better be an all-out street samurai or mage, too.

And I'd be amused at attempts to sell a custom-made deck. If the victimized decker doesn't have contacts that can trace the deal going down, or a back-up deck able to hack into local CCTV records & trick LoneStar into sending a big forensics team to the crime scene to ID the mugger, he can probably sniff out his own utilities when they reconnect to the Matrix.

Still, this line of discussion further raises my interest in PocketDecks.

Posted by: Phaeton May 21 2004, 01:12 AM

Think a PocketDeck would be like that small CD player-sized thing that Lt. Kusinagi used in the corporation building in the GitS manga?

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime May 21 2004, 01:25 AM

A cyberdeck is roughly the same size and dimension as a table top computer (a large keyboard with roll-out screen) and turning a table top computer into a pocket computer has a multiplier of x5. Thus if you really want a pocket-sized deck, just multiply its already outrageous costs by x5. In exchange you get a Concealability of 8 instead of 4 and a 90% reduction in weight.

That makes it consist with canon technology and I doubt if any GM would complain about a x5 cost multiplier in exchange for something so relatively minor.

Edit: Modified post due to errata'ed Concealability ratings.

Posted by: Necro Tech May 21 2004, 02:28 AM

Apparently I should quote more. When referring to the commonality of decks on the streets I was talking general public. Legal vs. Illegal. Mugging a decker can be suicidal as you pointed out.

The cost for a person to mount a rating 8 cellular link would be parts 6,240 + 32,000 for the program. Corporations could outfit cheaper of course but again, security security security. Hell, follow the wage slave to the internet cafe and put your dataline tap in there. I'm sure its a tad easier to break into Barnes & Noble than MCT.

Lonestar has to have figured out that carrying a deck for most people is unlikely. All but one stock cyberdeck costs more than a car and the ultra low end is either on somebodies desk or outside on the way to the trash. Its like a RoadMaster. You see one across the street from your safehouse its time to whip out the gun because the chance of it not belonging to a shadowrunnner are slim.

Posted by: Xirces May 21 2004, 09:03 AM

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

Except that it's only the hardware that would cost 5x more. The Persona, MPCP and all utilities wouldn't be multiplied - not unless software takes up physical space.

Posted by: Cray74 May 21 2004, 11:50 AM

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

A cyberdeck is roughly the same size and dimension as a table top computer (a large keyboard with roll-out screen)

If you call a keyboard "desktop sized," okay. (In 2050, "The seventh generation cyberdeck is introduced, now down to keyboard-size.")

You'd think in ~fourteen years, cyberdecks would get smaller without much price increase.

QUOTE

and turning a table top computer into a pocket computer has a multiplier of x5.

In fact, looking at Matrix and Man & Machine, it seems cyberdecks have shrunk radically for only a 20% price increase on most components.

Apparently, by about 2060, it's possible to fit a cyberdeck into a skull without displacing (too much) brain; protect that cyberdeck from the moist, humid, salty, corrosive metahuman body environment; protect the delicate metahuman body from unpleasant computer compounds; not use a large battery like a standard cyberdeck; etc. The price of most components of these ruggedized & ultra-miniaturized cyberdecks is "1.2x construction cost."

Good deal. I figure if I can build a cranial cyberdeck for 20% more than a standard deck (plus surgery), I can build a PocketDeck for a similar price.

Posted by: Nikoli May 21 2004, 12:26 PM

Wasn't there a canon reference that if you wanted a piece of cyberware as an external, hand-held device the price was half? I'm not saying taht you should get a cyberdeck for half, but a 10% price increase over the standard deck would make it pocket sized.

Posted by: Cray74 May 21 2004, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Nikoli @ May 21 2004, 12:26 PM)

Sounds good to me. Maybe in Rigger 3, the description of additions to mechanical arms? Or in the SR3 mainbook somewhere in the intro on cyberware?

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 21 2004, 01:11 PM

Of course, if you want to stick a deck into a cyberlimb, it's got a x4 cost multiplier (in previous editions, it was pretty explicit about the higher cost for those, I think, not looking at Cybertechnology right now, so I can't be 100% sure).

Sure, they don't need to charge you that much of an increase, but they certainly like the profit margin on a low demand part.

Posted by: Cray74 May 21 2004, 01:23 PM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

My primarily goal for a PocketDeck is a MPCP 2-4 cyberterminal with a sticker price of about 10-20K, a source of side income for (of all people) a street samurai with some computer talent. I figure with enough chip burners and some small anthroform robots (pilot rating 1-2), I can start up a mini-factory for under 500K nuyen and churn out handheld cyberterminals, marketing them for corporate executives who like all the latest gadgets. I could mark them up quite a bit, but the goal is to make them numerous.

And, of course, a higher-rating pocket cyberdeck is always possible for personal use.

Posted by: Nikoli May 21 2004, 01:38 PM

Add that to the already staggering abilities of the pocket secretary (primarily the cellular connection) and you've got a great stocking stuffer for your decker contact.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk May 24 2004, 12:17 PM

If you wanted a really concealable deck, maybe you could just build a cranial deck and not implant it. Just put a case on it, carry it in your pocket and jack into it as normal.

Posted by: Cray74 May 24 2004, 01:31 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

If you wanted a really concealable deck, maybe you could just build a cranial deck and not implant it. Just put a case on it, carry it in your pocket and jack into it as normal.

I think that's pretty much how I'm going to model the PocketDeck.

Target: Matrix has rules on FUP variants like Wireless FUPs, right?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 24 2004, 04:35 PM

yea they have

Posted by: Cray74 May 30 2004, 06:14 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

yea they have

What page in Target:Matrix describes Wireless FUPs?

Posted by: Person 404 May 30 2004, 09:14 PM

It's in Matrix, pg. 59. I don't believe Target: Matrix covers them.

Posted by: Cray74 May 31 2004, 05:36 AM

QUOTE (Person 404)

It's in Matrix, pg. 59. I don't believe Target: Matrix covers them.

Maybe I'm misreading Matrix, p59. What text do you see that mentions wireless FUPs? I see a FUPs entry specific to hard connections (slots).

Perhaps a better question is, "What printing of Matrix do you have?"

Posted by: Person 404 May 31 2004, 05:53 AM

Sorry, missed the word 'wireless' there. Wireless interfaces in general are covered on pg. 60.

Posted by: Cray74 May 31 2004, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (Person 404)

Sorry, missed the word 'wireless' there. Wireless interfaces in general are covered on pg. 60.

Yes, I saw the wireless interfaces, but I was curious about Wireless FUPs. Where are they covered? They've been mentioned on Dumpshock Forums - are they home rules?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 31 2004, 07:10 PM

gah, i do belive that post changed after i read it. or i must have read it wrongly as i was answering to the fact that normal FUPs where coverd in the matrix book, i didnt see anything about wireless or target:matrix when i posted that i can recall

Posted by: Cray74 May 31 2004, 07:28 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 31 2004, 07:10 PM)

Nope, I didn't change the post that I recall.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 1 2004, 06:30 AM

oh crap

sorry then for reading so totaly wrong...

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 1 2004, 09:56 AM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

oh crap

sorry then for reading so totaly wrong...

NP. I always kinda meant to pick up a copy of Target:Matrix anyway.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 12:48 PM

I keep meaning to check... but I think there's something on wireless peripherals in the SSG.

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 1 2004, 02:04 PM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

I keep meaning to check... but I think there's something on wireless peripherals in the SSG.

Er...SSG = Sprawl Survival Guide?

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 02:43 PM

Yep. Toward the front of the rules section, I keep thinking there's something about wireless connections, but I might be wrong.

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 1 2004, 09:48 PM

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

Cyberterminals (as described on SR3 p. 207) are also very rare as most corporations aren't going to hand one out to their employees,

Per pg13 Sprawl Survival Guide, the common home telecom is referred to as a cyberterminal:

"Your home's central cyberterminal listens to your appliances, your entertainment units and your work computer and does the hard work for you so that you don't even have to think about."

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 2 2004, 04:15 PM

man i realy need to get my hands on that book

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 2 2004, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Cray74)

How would a police officer know to inspect a cyberdeck?

How would he inspect it? Look for the "street legal weefle decker" stamp on the back? If he opened it, would he be able to recognize that it was a non-legal deck, since it's just chips like any other deck?

Cops know this stuff. They deal with it every day, specialized knowledge really. He might not even know what the parts are, or exactly why it's illegal, but the Sarge told him years ago as a beat cop that strange solder means illegal, and since then he's seen it on dozens of Decker's machines. Just like they always know where perps stash their drugs in a car, how cooperative a witness is gonna be, or can tell just from looking at a crime scene if they're gonna get far or not. They've seen it a hundred times before.

On that note, a Police Procedures check might be in order.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

On that note, a Police Procedures check might be in order.

It is, TN 4

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 2 2004, 08:10 PM

i dont know if it would be that mutch soldering to do on a deck tho as its optical based...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 2 2004, 08:19 PM

Optical solder. Mm-hm, really. *Nods sagely*

~J

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 2 2004, 08:21 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

So cops check every legal (-looking) cyberterminal to see if they have funny solder (or optical equivalent)?

If not, when do they decide to check? (Besides when the runner is an idiot and says, "Er...that's not my cyberde-...eh, cyberterminal in my lap officer!")

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jun 2 2004, 09:04 PM

Cops check when they have a reasonable suspicion. If the guy is detained for other reasons, they may decide to run a quick scan of his hardware and software to see if anything shows up.

If a guy is arrested, all his data will be examined. Pocket secretary, cyberdeck, headware and whatever else has a MP rating.

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 2 2004, 09:51 PM

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Cops check when they have a reasonable suspicion.

Right. So that detection factor only applies if the cop decides to look, and there's not a roll (per se) to make the officer decide to check?

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 2 2004, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Cray74)

Right. So that detection factor only applies if the cop decides to look, and there's not a roll (per se) to make the officer decide to check?

This is one of those areas where "common sense" and "GM fiat" come into play. If you look like a runner, or the SINless, or shifty, expect up to and beyond an anal cavity search. If you look like you belong, aren't up to anything, and ain't upsetting anything, they probably won't care.

Of course the typical runner wears the black leather trenches, obvious cyber eyes, and looks ready to run and/or rip someone throat out. You might wanna carry your own rubber gloves, for sanitary reasons.

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 2 2004, 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

Of course the typical runner wears the black leather trenches, obvious cyber eyes, and looks ready to run and/or rip someone throat out. You might wanna carry your own rubber gloves, for sanitary reasons.

Sanitary reasons. Right. That's why all my PCs carry rubber gloves.