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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ How much karma/karma pool does (xx) have?

Posted by: BitBasher May 27 2004, 01:33 AM

In your opinions, how much karma/karma pool do these famous characters have...

a) John McLane (Die Hard movies)
b) Achilles (Troy)
c) James Bond (Shaken, not stirred)
d) Cleric John Preston (Equilibrium)
e) Batman (I'm Batman!)

Posted by: Backgammon May 27 2004, 01:35 AM

a) at least 10.
b) didn't see Troy
c) 3 or 4
d) 2
e) 2

Posted by: JaronK May 27 2004, 01:38 AM

a) 50, at least. At least he had that many. He must have burned 40 getting through those movies alive... his basic strategy was to beat himself up until the bad guys fell down.

b) Didn't see it. But he's dead now, so he has none!

c) Endless supply. That guy has all the luck!

d) Never heard of him...

e) 1-3. He doesn't exactly seem lucky... just bad ass. I think he must have burned all his karma earlier.

JaronK

Posted by: mfb May 27 2004, 01:40 AM

are you people insane? batman is pure, unaugmented human. the only way an unaugmented human could be that badass is to have a truly massive karma pool.

Posted by: GreatChicken May 27 2004, 01:41 AM

QUOTE

e) 1-3. He doesn't exactly seem lucky... just bad ass. I think he must have burned all his karma earlier.

He did. He hangs out with metahumans so often, he has to use 'em to keep up. Fortunately, thanks to his JLA friends, he never runs out of them.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 27 2004, 01:46 AM

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 27 2004, 02:18 AM

Batman: Minimal. He doesn't rely on luck. He relies on his unbelieveable skill levels, intellect, and toys. I can even see him having the Bad Karma or even Cursed Karma flaws with the "luck" he has in his relationships and constantly running into/creating new villains. The same goes for Cleric Preston.

McLain and Bond both have insane amounts of luck, and thus Karma Pool. Not sure about Achilles, but considering some wench dipped him in a river, I'd say he's an insane-level adept with a peculiar "don't get hit in the frelling ankle" geas or something, and thus doesn't need luck.

Posted by: mfb May 27 2004, 02:25 AM

karma, in SR, is as much a skill as Firearms or Electronics. it's a product of experience--something Batman has loads and loads of. 'luck' is only one explanation for the mechanic. in Batman's case, the mechanic could be explained as 'Batman is just that damned good'.

though, of course, even with a bat-moon to ride, he couldn't take http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-01-19.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 27 2004, 02:27 AM

He obviously has a ton of Karma, representing his extensive experience, which he's spent to get those unbelievable skills. Whatever Karma Pool he acquired along the way was burned almost as soon as it was acquired, again pointing at the Cursed Karma flaw and the reprecussions thereof. He might have a pool of 1 to 3 at any given time, giving him enough to avoid any botches he might somehow acquire despite skill levels in the 8+ range, but that's about it.

Posted by: mfb May 27 2004, 02:39 AM

why would he need to burn that much karma? the only thing you can burn karma on is buying successes for tests, which equals extra of whatever explanation you're looking at for karma pool in the first place.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 27 2004, 02:48 AM

When you have to match an opponent's Opposed Test TN that's been augmented by superhuman abilities, you'll probably buy as many successes as you can anytime you do manage to get one success in.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond May 27 2004, 02:59 AM

Considering who (or what) he hangs out with, I imagine Batman using the Hooper Nelson rule a lot.

How about http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~pringle/bluesbros/

Posted by: mfb May 27 2004, 03:05 AM

i don't really see that as incredibly different from having a large karma pool, ROUS. i mean, in your case, he's burning it; in my case, he's spending it as needed. either way, he's still making heavy use of his karma pool.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 27 2004, 03:10 AM

They both have the Blessed Karma Edge.

Posted by: Jason Farlander May 27 2004, 05:45 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

They both have the Blessed Karma Edge.

They are, afterall, on a mission from god.

Posted by: Beast of Revolutions May 27 2004, 06:03 AM

Achilles has jack. Aside from being born invincible, he's nothing. He's a damn pussy. He's invincible, yet he brags like a rapper when he kills Hector. Then his dumb ass gets killed by the second-biggest pussy in the story, Paris, the guy who started it all. All he had to do was guard his damn heel, but noooo, Achilles couldn't acheive anything that wasn't handed to him on a silver platter.

Posted by: Omega Skip May 27 2004, 07:26 AM

If you want someone with a really huge karma pool, I recommend the crazed monk Rasputin. He wasn't much of a fighter, and he still survived some insane punishment. To me, that's karma right there.

But about the guys in question...

1) Cop, many years of service, single-handedly takes out a group of terrorists wearing nothing but a flimsy muscle shirt and no shoes. You'd need lots of karma to pull that off. I'd say 30.

2) Greek hero, blessed by a god, almost invulnerable. Badass fighter. Too arrogant to protect his weak spot. Hard to tell how much karma pool he has, since he doesn't need to rely on it.

3) Secret agent, always gets the coolest toys. Has a tendency to wreck said toys. If you look at what he's been through, and how many times he saved the world, I imagine he's got a huge karmapool simply due to his work experience: 40.

4) Cleric of the Tetragrammaton, father of two, long time prozium junkie (now clean). The template from which every gun-adept was wrought, impossible to best in either ranged or melee combat, master of the gun kata. Likes: Rainbows, classical music, dogs, backstabbing his olleagues. Dislikes: Guys taking his guns from him, and mean people. Preston doesn't need a karma pool, he's got the mighty mighty PLOT supporting him. ("Our orders only say to take his sword, I guess we can let him keep his guns...")

5) Depends... Comic book Batman: Astronomical. Movie Batman: 0 - he has fake nipples. He Has Fake Nipples!!! What the hell is wrong with these people?!?

Posted by: mfb May 27 2004, 07:40 AM

he does not have fake nipples. i saw no fake nipples in batman, and no fake nipples in batman returns. as there were no other batman movies made after the first two, your fake nipples must be hallucinatory.

there. were. no. more. batman. movies. after. the. first. two.

Posted by: Omega Skip May 27 2004, 07:50 AM

Actually, there were at least two more movies, called "Batman: The Musical" and "Batman and Robin: Joel Schumacher Shits In Your Eyes"

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 27 2004, 08:23 AM

QUOTE

..."Batman: The Musical"...

A superstitious, cowardly lot!
They plan and plot, but they always get caught!
Their evil schemes all come to naught!
A superstitious cowardly lot!

Posted by: Nath May 27 2004, 11:06 AM

The Illiad stops at Hector burial. That story of Achilles' heel is nothing more than fan fiction (he got wounded in the Illiad IIRC). I don't even want to see that movie, surely crap. He has high Quickness, athletic, combat, political and medical skills, and couldn't start with them at CharGen since he had to pay a lot of points to pick demigod as a race. I'd say divine interventions whould require burning karma, so even if Achilles has the best stats, Ajax would have the biggest Karma Pool (he matches the other heroes but unlike them no god ever help him).

Posted by: Omega Skip May 27 2004, 11:14 AM

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out, Nath - and here's a link that sums up the evolution of http://www.wordexplorations.info/Achilles-heel-story.html. I guess you learn something new every day...

Posted by: kevyn668 May 27 2004, 02:13 PM

Don't bother with Troy if you have any experience what so ever with Greek History or literature--hell, even mythology. I've heard of dramatic lisecene, but c'mon!!

Back on track: I think out of that group, James Bond would have to have the highest KP. The man's NEVER BEEN SHOT!! 'Course that be the result of his being an IE spike baby.

How else could foil evil plans and get into ladies' pants for, like, 40 years and still look 35?

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 27 2004, 02:27 PM

Doesn't the Oddessey pick up where the Illiad left off? I thought both were written by Homer, which would preclude the second being Fanfiction.

Anyway my 2 nuyen on the topic at hand:

a) Definetly in the double digits. Can you imagine the TN for an Athletics (Jumping off the side of a building and using a Fire Hose to swing in the window) test?

b) Haven't seen Troy. Given that Achilles is part god I'd call his abilities that I know of racial modifications and edges, and probably a Quickened invisible armor spell that for some reason doesn't work on the ankle.

c) Three Digit Karma pool. On the other hand, we never see Bond learn anything new, so he has a variant of Cursed Karma that causes all his Good Karma to go straight into his pool. Oh yes, and he has a sort of possession Metamagic that lets him change to a new body whenever his gets old.

d) I have no idea who this is.

e) I detest Batman. He is an idiotic idea for a character who is simply handed supreme luck by the writers because he has rabid fanboys. I've considered Batman's abilities to be nothing more than the hand of god on every effort ever since the Crossover with Spawn where Batman, naturally, managed to fight Spawn hand-to-hand and bring him to a stalemate.

I frankly don't buy the skills notion at all, anybody who can actually use Judo to throw Superman around should not be in danger from the Joker. Therefore Batman has the homeruled edge "Infinite Karma Pool" but is played by a person so stupid he frequently forgets to use Karma Pool.

Posted by: Nikoli May 27 2004, 02:33 PM

Also, McClane has Witty Sarcasm(Asshole) at like 6/10 by now.

Posted by: Lindt May 27 2004, 02:52 PM

1) Sgt John McLane. Pretty respectable, well into the double digits, 30s mabey. This guy is really just what someone with pretty avg skills and atts can do with 300 karma in edges.

2) Achilles. Plot NPC, dies when the GM says so.

3) Bond, James Bond. Yeah, loads of karma pool here. That plus skills through the roof. Helps to have the toys too. But he gets screwed every once in a while, read some of the books that arnt movies, he gets the crap kicked out of him a number of times.

4) Cleric John Preston. This isnt karma pool, this is just raw volume of combat pool added to a wickedly skilled adept. When hes not kicking ass, hes pretty lame. Just dont give him the oppertunity to kick ass. This man invented gun-kata, not to be confused with Chow young Fat, who invented gun-foo.

5) Bruce Wayne (batman) Karma pool: see 'yes'. triple digits easly, but rember, you need to get a sucess before you can buy sucesses. He gets his hoop kicked multiple times, especally the comic version (who is far superior to the movie Batman)

Posted by: KillaJ May 27 2004, 04:36 PM

I think that some of McClane's powers come from some sort of Samson-like need to not shave, possibly not bathe. It seems as though he just gets more baddass the scruffier and dirtier he gets. Maybe that would be a cool geas...

Also I second everything Moonstone Spider said about Batman. Any karma he has I'm sure was just purchased with his vast fortune.

Posted by: The White Dwarf May 27 2004, 09:15 PM

BB, I like your attempt to ballpark some standards for karma pool for NPCs. But I dont think this is the way to do it, for a few reasons.

First off, all these characters were storyline driven. Simply put, the fact that theyre in a movie or comic means theres an ending based on the story. So the hero will have exactly enough karma as the story dictates.

Players dont have that cushion. They could very well fail and wind up dead. Bond never dies, whatever the writers come up with is how much karma he has. The story, not the character, determine the karma pool in these cases. A more suitable benchmark would be one based on people that arent scripted to win.

Secondly, while theres a broad range of characters to pick from, theyre also open to a wide array of opinions. Something less opinion oriented would be more suitable as a benchmark figure.

Id suggest looking to RL rather than fiction to try to determine this, taking into consideration the game world. Like for example, if players karma pool caps at 10 (example in BBB), and dragons have 50+ (from dotsw), thats a good framework.

Dragons are unbeatable level NPCs, hence 50. Players presumable can win against the adventure if theyre smart, so 10 is enough to do it with a little wiggle room, but not enough that they have karma to burn. So benchmark numbers for a bad guy should fall on that scale too.

Run of the mill gangers and such probably only have 1 karma pool, enough to save them if they make 1 small mistake but thats it. Typical mobsters might have 3, enough to get by rackettering, and enough to make the somewhat dangerous in the single encounter theyll have with the pcs (before they die or something). Highly trained people like vetern sec teams might have 5, more than theyll probably need in their encounter with the runners but not enough to spend on everything. Crack teams like Tir Ghosts and Renraku Red Sams etc will probably bank in at 8, which coupled with matching skill levels (like pistols 7 or whatever) is enough to be a serious, perhaps deadly threat to the players, but still gives the players a little bit of an edge in the event both sides use it all in a single encounter.

Thats just a rough example of karma pool that, to me, seems more realistically applicable to setting a scale. As far as good karma, that largley depends on training and experience, which is a very broad range. The Milspec teams will have more obviously, but such things arent as important because its not used for any in-game operation, its just a method of advancing players. NPCs can be advanced to whatever the plot realistically requires. If you need some standard of NPC good karma to make sure bad guys are 'equivalent' just use a 50 or 100 points per threat rating scale or something. 0-50 is low threat, scaling up with 400+ being extreme threat. Since the exact skills and npc in question will change how much or little of this is needed, thats proably good enough.

Posted by: BitBasher May 27 2004, 10:24 PM

Er, Nice post White Dwarf and thanks for the reply, but I wasn't trying to benchmark anything, this thread was largely for the fun of it.

I was merely interested in the opinions of others, as I find these things interesting.

Incidentally some GM's DO run their games that way, where its all about the story and the rolls are a formality, the players will accomplish things if, and when he feels it appropriate. I don't.

Posted by: Number 6 May 27 2004, 10:39 PM

QUOTE (Beast of Revolutions)

The only real hero in that whole epic is Ulysses IMO. Haven't seen the movie yet, but read Illiad and Oddysey a few times.

Who BTW would have a STR9+

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 27 2004, 11:00 PM

That's absurd. Odysseus is one of the least heroic of the characters. Hector, Priam, and Ajax, IIRC, are the only three I'd consider giving the title to.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher May 27 2004, 11:30 PM

The reason I said Achilles from Troy, as in the movie is that in the move he is NOT a demigod, no mention is made of his invulnerability, he is just a really, really good warrior... and an ass. He's a man.

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 27 2004, 11:48 PM

That's also absurd. Did they decide to put in strong female roles as well, and maybe make Paris a noble character? Ooh, or why not have Hector win instead, or have aliens invade the battleground?

~J

Note: I'm not against strong female roles in and of themselves. I love them, my writing is full of them. I'm against adding them where they shouldn't have been (*cough*Arwen*cough*).

Posted by: GreatChicken May 28 2004, 01:01 AM

QUOTE

5) Bruce Wayne (batman) Karma pool: see 'yes'. triple digits easly, but rember, you need to get a sucess before you can buy sucesses. He gets his hoop kicked multiple times, especally the comic version (who is far superior to the movie Batman)

I thought he might have used his on Karma Rerolls. He DID beat 4 J'onn Jonzz equivalent Martians in an issue of JLA....

Posted by: BitBasher May 28 2004, 01:33 AM

QUOTE

I thought he might have used his on Karma Rerolls. He DID beat 4 J'onn Jonzz equivalent Martians in an issue of JLA....

Like a redheaded stepchild, although he really didnt blow any karma for that, it was a setup and he had basically screwed them silly before he started.

Posted by: mfb May 28 2004, 03:22 AM

i think we all know what would have made the movie http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-05-24.

Posted by: BitBasher May 28 2004, 03:58 AM

No argument there!

Posted by: Panzergeist May 28 2004, 07:07 AM

Odyseus is a hero. He thought of the horse, and he fought his way home in the Odesey. The best warrior of the group would have to be Archimedes. King Nestor is pretty cool too, simply cause he was like 90 years old.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 28 2004, 03:37 PM

Archimedes? If you don't mean Agamenmnon or somebody similar that Movie's even worse than I thought, given that Archimedes was a Mathematician and Philosopher.

Basically nobody in all of Greek Mythology is what I'd call a hero, the Gods were abusive scum with no morals and less common sense, the 'Heroes' were, actually a lot like Shadowrunners which is a far cry from heroes. Rob, Rape, Pillage, yeah that's their tune.

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 28 2004, 07:55 PM

Archimedes did invent the variable-range catapult, but yeah, he's not supposed to be in there.

Odysseus was most emphatically not a hero. He tried to duck out of an oath that he'd gotten himself into, and then proceeded to do nothing remotely heroic until, potentially, Polyphemus' cave.

~J

Posted by: kevyn668 May 28 2004, 08:07 PM

Did he figure out Displacement, too? Or was that some other dude?

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 28 2004, 08:39 PM

Same guy. The catapult is just his more notable military invention, as far as I remember.

~J

Posted by: Omega Skip May 28 2004, 08:40 PM

So, uh, how much karmapool dice do you think Archimedes had?

Posted by: KillaJ May 28 2004, 08:56 PM

Pffft....not as much as Copernicus. That guy kicked ass!

Posted by: Nikoli May 28 2004, 08:56 PM

I dunno man, Phythagoras had to live on the lamb from the man. Outlaw mathematicians

Posted by: KillaJ May 28 2004, 08:58 PM

Did anyone else just get a crazy idea for a new character?

Posted by: Nikoli May 28 2004, 09:01 PM

rofl... The Pythagorans would make a great Hermetic Initiation Group, but they gotta have a Vatican based Enemy

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 28 2004, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Omega Skip)

So, uh, how much karmapool dice do you think Archimedes had?

He probably burned them all for successes or rerolls on his work.

~J

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 28 2004, 09:08 PM

QUOTE

Odysseus was most emphatically not a hero. He tried to duck out of an oath that he'd gotten himself into, and then proceeded to do nothing remotely heroic until, potentially, Polyphemus' cave.

A reluctant hero is still a hero. Han Solo certainly wasn't a hero until the end of the original movie, but that didn't mean he didn't do heroic acts beforehand. Same is true of other heroes from literature and film... Robin Hood being a notable example.

Posted by: Shadow May 28 2004, 09:11 PM

Spiderman is a modern example. He wasn't a hero until after his uncle got killed.

Posted by: Nikoli May 28 2004, 09:13 PM

Actually, it wasn't until the man responsible for Uncle Ben, the hunt for him Peter was a vigilante, out for blood. at the moment of truth, he 'faltered' and remembered his uncles words.

Posted by: Number 6 May 28 2004, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 28 2004, 02:55 PM)

Odysseus was most emphatically not a hero. He tried to duck out of an oath that he'd gotten himself into, and then proceeded to do nothing remotely heroic until, potentially, Polyphemus' cave.

~J

He was a hero in the fact that he was the 'everyman', and displayed the great qualities and potential of the common man. He wasn't son of a god, or blessed by hades, he didn't eat kryptonite, or shit fireballs. He was smart, wise and strong. Yeah, he never wanted adventure or glory, he just wated to get back to his family, and thats precisely why his accomplishments are so notable.

Which is ironic you don't call him a hero, while Batman is so lauded. The whole reason both are so compelling is because they were a mortal, a mundane, a nobody against the backdrop of 'super'heroes, and still hold their own. Unlike Superman, Hercules, Achilles, they work for a living

You got me though, I like Ajax too.

What, Helen wasn't a strong enough role for you?

Posted by: BitBasher May 29 2004, 02:51 AM

Okay, what about the karma/karma Pool of Todd from Soldier?

Posted by: Nikoli May 29 2004, 02:58 AM

His is burned up as orders need. I'd say he's got maybe 5 pool in reserve, maybe a total of 200 Karma carreer wise

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 29 2004, 08:44 PM

I disagree that Odysseus was a relctant hero. A hero can be reluctant, however to be heroic I believe the hero must be helping somebody else. Robin Hood helped the poor, Spiderman stops crime, even Batman, much as I despise the character, fights evil.

Odysseus goes around robbing from the rich and giving to himself, he made it home but did he bother to make sure so much as one of his sailors did? Where did good King Odysseus do a good deed and save another when it didn't benefit him?

Oh yes, I should clarify my position on Batman. In his own Comic Batman is fine, a detective with heroic (ie. strange) taste in clothes. The problem comes when Batman's rabid fans cause DC to cave and put him in things like the JLA. It completely destroys my suspension of disbelief to imagine that somehow he's fighting alongside Superman, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern. It would be like having an average shadowrun team except that one member has attributes and skills of 1, no magic, and somehow that member, due to GM intervention handing him blessings all the time, is always the one to win the fight and defeat the enemy.

Posted by: toturi May 29 2004, 11:47 PM

All the other JLA are munchkined uber-builds, Bat's a balanced well-rounded character.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 30 2004, 12:11 AM

QUOTE

Oh yes, I should clarify my position on Batman. In his own Comic Batman is fine, a detective with heroic (ie. strange) taste in clothes. The problem comes when Batman's rabid fans cause DC to cave and put him in things like the JLA. It completely destroys my suspension of disbelief to imagine that somehow he's fighting alongside Superman, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern. It would be like having an average shadowrun team except that one member has attributes and skills of 1, no magic, and somehow that member, due to GM intervention handing him blessings all the time, is always the one to win the fight and defeat the enemy.

Out of curiousity, have you ever played a superhero RPG? At least one of the better one's like with the Tri-Stat system?

If so, it's very possible to make a good, solid character with no actual superpowers who can keep up with characters who, logically, should outclass in particular areas. While they're spending their points on Superstrength, Flight, and Invulnerability (most of which suffering some kind of vulnerability in order to pay for the power), a character like Batman would have points spent on boosting his natural Attributes to the human maximums, buying tons of high-rated skills, and securing the resources and gadgets to help him keep an edge over those opponents possessing superhuman abilities.

In a direct fight where a superhuman opponent has the advantage of using his superhuman powers directly against such a "normal" character, that character is going to be toast. But a character like Batman uses all those resources, skills, and smarts he took instead to help him outthink, outpsyche, and outmaneuver his opponents while simultaneously allowing him to take advantage of any and all of their weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

I think that's the main charm of a character like Batman. Everyone likes an underdog, especially one that's clever as opposed to lucky. Which, again, is why I frown on the idea that Batman has a high Karma Pool, let alone an insane one like most people here suggest.

Posted by: Zazen May 30 2004, 01:45 AM

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)

I disagree that Odysseus was a relctant hero. A hero can be reluctant, however to be heroic I believe the hero must be helping somebody else.

Yeah, but that's not valued as much as individual achievement in ancient Greece. He's just a different kind of hero than you're used to.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 30 2004, 02:49 AM

QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size)

I have not yet played any Superhero RPG I'd consider "Good" and no, I've not tried Tri-Stat. Perhaps I should.

However your argument has nothing to do with the actual discussion and even less to do with logic. The fact that superpowers cost you build points is a matter of game balance, not game reality. That's why, all other things being equal, a Shadowrun Mage with have 5 fewer skills at 6 than a mundane. Game Balance, not because being magical makes you less able to learn things. Similarly Batman should have no superior skills to the Flash just because the Flash has powers, less in fact since the Flash can read an entire library during the time it takes Batman to read a single paragraph.

Unless you'd care to argue that when Peter Parker was bitten by a radioactive spider the spider sucked several years worth of memories away, of course.

And no, Batman isn't skilled. Batman pulls the most absurd nonsense out of his bat-hole, he doesn't use logic, science, or skills. Outside his own comic of course, which as I've said tends to be pretty good. And calling Batman an Underdog is a laugh and a half, or haven't you noticed that even on this boards people assume Batman can kill anything automatically?

Posted by: Sahandrian May 30 2004, 03:26 AM

The conversation just keeps reminding me of these...
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 30 2004, 03:48 AM

IIRC Hercules comes off as pretty heroic. And of the greek gods Athena usaully comes off ok, and any of the heros that Athena supports...

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 30 2004, 05:48 AM

Heracles doesn't get off lightly. He does, y'know, kill his entire family and all (though with some coercion).

~J

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 30 2004, 01:55 PM

Athena gets the all-time greatest sore loser award.

Item 1: people (not Arachne, who was quite humble) say Arachne's better at weaving than Athena. Athena gets pissed and challenges Arachne to a weaving contest.

Arachne not only kicks Athena's ass but her weaving shows all the sins of the gods and the bad things they have done to mankind. Naturally rather than concede defeat, Athena turns Arachne into a spider to punish her and force her to constantly make really crappy weavings full of holes.

Of course Arachne gets her revenge centuries later by becoming one of the better totems in Shadowrun while there is no Athena Totem at all but it probably didn't comfort her much at the time.

Item 2: A man is hunting in the woods with his faithful hounds. Athena decides to go skinny dipping even though she knows it's hunting season and the woods are crawling with hunters (Goddess of Wisdom, oh yes). Naturally the man accidentally passes by and sees her. Athena turns him into a stag and causes his own hounds to tear him apart and eat him still living.

Posted by: Jason Farlander May 30 2004, 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)

Item 2: A man is hunting in the woods with his faithful hounds. Athena decides to go skinny dipping even though she knows it's hunting season and the woods are crawling with hunters (Goddess of Wisdom, oh yes). Naturally the man accidentally passes by and sees her. Athena turns him into a stag and causes his own hounds to tear him apart and eat him still living.

You say this as if a Greek Goddess would under any circumstances pay attention to or give a flying f*ck at a rolling donut about what mortals might be doing at any given time (except in instances where theyre offering sacrifices or doing things to piss them off)

Her attitude in this case was probably "I feel like some nekkid swimtime. I pity the foo who chances upon me."

Oh, also, in regards to Item 1, http://www.archaeonia.com/religion/mythology/arachne.htm is pretty much the story I'm familiar with, and it portrays Athena in a *slightly* more favorable light than your version.

Posted by: Phaeton May 30 2004, 04:24 PM

...What do you think Duke Nukem's stats are?

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 30 2004, 05:03 PM

He has no stats, because Flynn Taggart has already kicked his punk ass.

~J

Posted by: Phaeton May 30 2004, 05:06 PM

...Wait. Who's Flynn Taggart?

Posted by: Person 404 May 30 2004, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)

There are various different versions of #1; in some of them, Arachne is less than "quite humble." Every version I've ever heard of #2 has the goddess in question as Artemis, not Athena.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 30 2004, 09:21 PM

Hmm, for some reason I skipped right past the meat of this post.

QUOTE

However your argument has nothing to do with the actual discussion and even less to do with logic. The fact that superpowers cost you build points is a matter of game balance, not game reality.

Well, save for the obvious fact that it does apply to game reality. As seen by characters like Batman and the Punisher.

It's quite logical in my opinion. Most people who have a ton of superpowers isn't going to spend the amount of effort or resourcefulness to hone their abilities to the pinnacle of their potential. Superman is a classic example; he goes out of his way not to use his powers at full strength, let alone hone them to perfection.

On the other hand, a character who knows he's going to have to compete against such superior beings, either through desire or circumstance, they're going to do whatever they can to get an edge. And, again, that's reflected in characters like Batman.

You obviously don't like him. That's cool. I don't like most comic characters in general, either. But that doesn't negate the potential for an unaugmented human to hold his own against supernatural opponents, even without relying on the wholly untangible and superstitious superpower like "luck" to help him do it.

Even in Shadowrun, a character with insane skill levels doesn't *need* Karma Pool. A shotgun blast from a character with a skill rating of 12 and a high Combat Pool *is* going to lay some serious hurting even on a high grade Mage with a force 12 Armor spell up and running, especially if said character has the stats and skills to get the jump on said magician.

QUOTE

Unless you'd care to argue that when Peter Parker was bitten by a radioactive spider the spider sucked several years worth of memories away, of course.

Who said it did? 1) Peter Parker was a teenager when this occured, and hardly trained by the world's greatests assassins, spies, and scientists. 2) He didn't even start acting like a hero until well *after* the bite occurred, just like most accidental/created superheroes.

Most normal people don't stand a chance against even wussy heroes because they neither have the will nor the training to put up even a modicrum of worthwhile resistance. Characters like Batman and the Punisher, on the other hand, do... and it shows in their training and experience.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 31 2004, 01:33 AM

QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size)

Well, save for the obvious fact that it does apply to game reality. As seen by characters like Batman and the Punisher.

No, your argument was that somehow a character's skills and abilities can't go as high if they have superpowers, because it costs build points to get superpowers. As anybody who reads your post can see. Hence my comment on Spiderman losing years of experience from a spider-bite.

I've yet to see any non-augmented being who can pull off what you're describing (excepting that the laws of physics are cancelled and they are handed enourmous levels of luck). At best characters like that should be doing what Bruce did in Batman Beyond, stitting behind a computer feeding maps into everybody else's HUD. There is no possible way for somebody with Batman's strength to even stay in a fight with character's like Superman around, where the very wind and shockwave from his punches should hurl Batman through the air like a leaf.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 31 2004, 01:46 AM

QUOTE

No, your argument was that somehow a character's skills and abilities can't go as high if they have superpowers, because it costs build points to get superpowers.

No, that's what you decided to read, not what I said. I said that, just like it's reflected in the comics and the show, while a character like Superman is discovering his powers and how to keep them under control, a character like Batman is honing his natural abilities to perfection. In a roleplaying game that's reflected in Superman buying superpowers while Batman is buying insane skill levels and financial resources.

QUOTE

Hence my comment on Spiderman losing years of experience from a spider-bite.

Feel free to point to a single line where I said anything remotely like that. By your logic, anyone who becomes a magician in Shadowrun "loses years of experience" just by Awakening as a teenager as oppose to those Priority/Build Points reflecting their training in magic and how to keep themselves from being amongst the statistics of those who go insane upon awakening.

QUOTE

I've yet to see any non-augmented being who can pull off what you're describing.

Tell you what. The day you see a man in blue tights flying overhead towards a harbor where he then pauses to lift an oil tanker out of the water like it was nothing, I'll accept a comment as silly as this one. Until then, it's a comic book. *Everything* in it is staggering. But within the reality of the comic book universe, a character like Batman is just a superbly trained and experienced human. He has no superpowers, of which supernatural-levels of luck is often definied as one in and of itself (re: Longshot).

It's even more outrageously ridiculous when you're saying something like that in comparison to a setting like Shadowrun, where it's entirely possible to have totally unaugmented characters with a Strength score as high as 16 who can see in total darkness, can take an assault cannon blast at point blank to the head and not even get knocked on his ass, only to turn around and shoot a single pistol round into a car's engine block and cause it to explode.

And you know what? They wouldn't even need to use Karma Pool to do any of it themselves.

Posted by: mfb May 31 2004, 03:11 AM

well, like i said before, luck is only one possible explanation for the mechanical benefits of a karma pool. i've never used that explanation, myself.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 31 2004, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size)

Since my last argument clearly isn't going anywhere, Rodent, let's try an entirely different track.

You mentioned a man with a shotguns 12 vs. a mage with 12 initiations. Let's replace them with Batman and another of the JLA members that he constantly overshadows in combat and see what happens.

We'll replace the shotguns 12 skill with Thrown weapons, and since Batman's just that good let's say he's got it at 15 and has the aptitude: Thrown Weapons edge. Further he's got every attribute at 10 so he's got a combat pool of 15, giving him 30 dice. He'll probably have 20 successes, which compared to an average Shadowrunner is quite super.

Now let's replace our mage with a JLA member. Not Superman or Green Lantern or any of the really top-power guys, but rather a mid-level guy, The Flash.

The Flash can travel at just under the Speed of Light, 300,000 kilometers a second. Multiplied by 1000 to turn it into meters a second, we can then multiply by 3 for 3 seconds in a combat turn, then divide by the human running multiplier of 3 to give us 300,000,000 as his quickness.

Let me say that again. His quickness is 300 million. Furthermore, due to super-speed he can perform 10 complex actions each initiative phase.

And of course that gives him a reaction of 150 million and a combat pool to match. So after you throw your 20 success boomerang attack the Flash pulls a million dice from his combat pool (although how you beat him to the punch is beyond me) and scores half a million successes to dodge. Suddenly Batman's "Super" powers don't seem so super anymore do they?

And we're not even calling upon the really powerful guys, Superman has that kind of statistic on every single attribute (Intelligence may depend on the version of Superman we're talking about), plus a million points of essence and immunity (Normal Weapons), plus inherent levitation, laser, and ice-ball spells. Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter are comparable although the Manhunter get's an extreme allergy to fire and spells of telepathy and phasing through matter. The Green Latern can cast any manipulation spell at any force with no drain as long as he has his ring.

So explain to me in some sort of reasonable terms how Batman can possible be useful on a Shadowrunning team of Guys like that? And keep in mind Batman doesn't just match these guys, he's useful in their fights and actively beats them up on a regular basis.

Posted by: BitBasher May 31 2004, 04:25 PM

Well, on the superman issue, Superman handed kryptonite to batman specifically to use against him if something bad happened. No, he can't beat any JLA member in a straigt up fight and it was never pretended he could, that's just silly. The thing is that batman, as written, will never, ever engage in a stand up fight with any of them if he wants to take them out. Batman's vast majority of skills are knowledge. That's all his real function is in JLA most of the time.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 31 2004, 11:29 PM

The thing is, Batman, as written, routinely takes the rest of the JLA members on in a straight-up fight and wins. Much less his routine wins against beings like them in crossovers. That's my whole beef with him, anything which has Batman in it automatically destroys any notion of balance, suspension of disbelief, or what little reality there is in a comic book.

If he did just serve as a knowledge, base, then as I said before, he should never ever be with them in combat. He should sit around at home and work on his computer, radio-ing in knowledge as needed. (Actually given how fast Flash and Superman can read he should hang his cape up and realize that an unaugmented human cannot be useful to high-end superheroes, period). The Original JLA didn't invite Snapper along with them to fight, they left him at the base to work on machinery.

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 1 2004, 01:15 AM

QUOTE

Nope. Against Superman in some elseworlds series, he used Kryptonite to weaken him first. Against the Green Lantern, he stole the ring. Against Wonder Woman, he took advantage of the Amazonian weakness by fusing her braces together with a gadget from his belt. Batman almost never fights in full view of any of his enemies (except maybe the Joker, who knows him TOO well), and when he does, he doesn't fight fair. Straight up? Maybe against the street rabble.

Sure, he'd win intimidation rolls (he won once against even Orion himself..with the help of batarangs of course) and perception rolls (spotted the manhunter even when disguised: "Nice disguise, J'onn but I can still see some of that Martian body language underneath..."). But he won't go straight up in a fight and would probably lose if he does. In fact, there was this scene in the training room between him and WW that proves the point (he lost).
B: "Throat lock. Hold until you pass out."
W: "Like I'd give you the luxury!"

..And lets not forget how he burns karma as if he had as much of it as his fortune.

QUOTE

Superman handed kryptonite to batman specifically to use against him if something bad happened.

Actually, before that, Batman already synthesized synthetic Kryptonite without his knowledge; in fact, he had a database of traits and weaknesses that he secretly collected. There was this issue of JLA where Ras' al Ghul stole Batman's JLA weaknesses data file and proceeded to wreck havoc with them...which resulted in Batman getting voted out for awhile.

Posted by: theartthief Jun 1 2004, 05:25 AM

This thread reminds me of a joke that I heard:

Q: In a fight between Superman and Mighty Mouse, who would win?

A: Superman!

Q: Why?

A: Because he's real and Mighty Mouse is just a cartoon.

Good night all...

- theartthief

Posted by: mfb Jun 1 2004, 05:06 PM

ignoring the shock of seeing Dark Knight Returns referred to as "some Elseworlds series", i'd have to agree with the Pollo. Batman can throw down with members of the JLA because, before any of them have even considered attacking him, he's already figured out their every weakness and has ten different plans for exploiting each. Batman beats Superman in every Elseworlds slugfest they have because Supes' answer to every enemy is, "how hard do I have to hit it." hell, as i recall, Superman only recently (within the past year, maybe two) figured out that he could combine his powers for greater effect--and he had to have Mogul train him how to do it!

you know what, though? no matter how useless you think Batman is to the JLA, at least he's better than http://www.seanbaby.com.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 1 2004, 05:09 PM

Hey! Never underestimate the power of talking to fish.

Posted by: mfb Jun 1 2004, 05:11 PM

pshh. Aquaman's the parapalegic of the JLA. "Hey, Aquaman, we're playing baseball. C'mon over, we need someone to be home plate."

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 1 2004, 05:38 PM

Let us not forget the Bat/Supe crossover when they first met as professionals. Superman puts a hand on the Bat and gets tossed across the room.(while also getting a tracker placed on him for good measure).

Batman has little fear of super powers, he often sees dependence on a power as a weakness. (personally, I didn't have any respect for Superman as a 'hero' until his powers were stolen through magic, at which point all he did was use technology to replace them, jetpack, laser gun, etc.for crissakes, he can barely throw a proper punch)

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 1 2004, 08:10 PM

QUOTE

Let's also not use an episode of the Animated Series as a good example of anything Batman OR Superman related.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 1 2004, 08:20 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

pshh. Aquaman's the parapalegic of the JLA. "Hey, Aquaman, we're playing baseball. C'mon over, we need someone to be home plate."

He was almost kinda cool in the one Justice League episode featuring him. I still get a kick out of Green Lantern's line when he saw him riding a killer whale.

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 1 2004, 09:12 PM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

Let's also not use an episode of the Animated Series as a good example of anything Batman OR Superman related.

I liked Batman: TAS...

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 01:16 PM

Normally, I hate X-Box games. But do you think Master Chief has a high Karma Pool, or think he's just really damn good?

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 2 2004, 01:37 PM

Depends, but I'm inclined to say both. On the one hand, he's been trained and conditioned since age seven, so he must have impressive skill scores (Handles every weapon, drives every vehicle...), which in turn means lots of karma, hence high karma pool. But on the other hand, he's the last living Spartan, one out of 75.

Luck definitely factors in, so yeah, he's pretty damn good, but he's also pretty damn lucky.

Posted by: shadd4d Jun 2 2004, 02:22 PM

QUOTE (Sahandrian)

QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 1 2004, 04:10 PM)

Let's also not use an episode of the Animated Series as a good example of anything Batman OR Superman related.

I liked Batman: TAS...

The superman series was just a joke. The guy can't seem to do anything without risking a hernia. Take a look at how hard superman strains to do anything. It's pathetic.

The first 2-3 seasons of the Batman series (when it ran on fox) were great. The atmosphere was good and it played out pretty nicely. Then it got...infected by idiocy.

Don

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 2 2004, 08:57 PM

QUOTE

Normally, I hate X-Box games. But do you think Master Chief has a high Karma Pool, or think he's just really damn good?

Neither. He's a munchkin lamer that would be dead years ago if it wasnt for the nifty regenerating shield. He has high physical stats but other than that he's a purely boring 12 year old's hero character.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 08:59 PM

True. He's gotta be one of the most bland game characters in recent history. Still makes me wonder why Halo is so popular.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 2 2004, 09:01 PM

The real question is how much karma/karma pool does the main character from Marathon have? Pathways into Darkness?

~J