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Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 04:17 AM

Okay, I got bored and decided to see what the probabilties of getting a certain number of actions is for various types of initiative boost. Here is what I came up with. I considered reactions from 4 to 12, which would account for most bioware and racial maximums (a human maxes out at 11 reaction without cyberware, an elf at 12). Reaction enhancers weren't considered in this, but you'll probably be using them if you're at 12 reaction, anyway. Reaction boosts from the "Boost" cyber aren't counted under the R column. That's pure bioware+natural reaction (and reaction enhancers if you're trying to see how they fit in).

Using reaction enhancers, the fastest possible initiative boost is +24 reaction +4d6 initiative (16 points of deltaware reaction enhancers and deltaware MBW IV), or 36+5d6 (min 41 max 66 or 7 to 9 sets of actions per turn). That's a little beyond the scope of what I'm going for.

First, un-boosted initiative.

Posted by: Luke Hardison May 29 2004, 04:33 AM

Posted by: BitBasher May 29 2004, 04:39 AM

one thing:

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 04:40 AM

Damn. That's what happens when someone decides it's a good idea to write "six" instead of "6". I looked right at it half a dozen times without realizing it was the limitation.

That makes max initiative instead +14 +4d6 or 26+5d6. Still big, but only a max of 6 passes (8 actions).

Posted by: BitBasher May 29 2004, 04:47 AM

Oh, than also:

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 04:49 AM

Edges and flaws are optional rules so they don't count

Your odds of 3 actions are still pretty low, even with them. If your reaction is 9, you're still only at approximately a 30% chance of three actions.

Posted by: Arethusa May 29 2004, 04:49 AM

Corollary to Adrenaline Surge: if you roll up to a 30 on a single die, enjoy your complementary heart attack.

Posted by: BitBasher May 29 2004, 04:55 AM

I've had a player roll a 39 on a single die before, without karma, in front of me, and his target number was 29 IIRC. =P

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 05:16 AM

Playing Brave New World one time, I hit the high 20s on a single d6. Intimidated an entire room full of gangers like no one's business

You know... I really hate Adrenaline Surge as an edge. The wording is such that a mage can start the game with it and then cast increased reflexes +3 to get +3d6 initiative which all use the rule of 6... Same goes for adding cyber.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond May 29 2004, 05:19 AM

Alpha Boosted I and SA 2 is a good route to go for an essence-friendly initiative boost: .4 Essence and 1.00 Bio for +3d6 to initiative.

Posted by: The White Dwarf May 29 2004, 06:05 AM

Ive already done a more comprehensive run of numbers for my own use, lost in a folder somewhere.

But the results were boosted1 as the most effecient initative for the cost and essence.

Boosted3 + SA + Reaction enchancer 6 was the highest initiative increase.

Move by Wire 4 is the most number of actions due to the bonus actions, but not the highest (ie first) number.

Wired reflexes 2 is the other effecient one, in terms of cost and essence.

Wired 1 and 3 are ineffecient but significant increases in terms of statistical chance to act more or sooner.

Posted by: Arethusa May 29 2004, 06:41 AM

Uh, Dwarf, fastest average speed comes from Boosted 3 and Wired 3, not Boosted 3, SA 2, and RE 6.

Character with all attribute stats at 4:
Unaugmented initiative is 4+1d6: average 7.5
Wired 2 and Reaction Enhancer 6 is 14+3d6: average 24.5
Synaptic Accelerator 2, Reaction Enhancer 6, and Boosted Reflexes 3 is 12+5d6: average 29.5
Wired 3 and Reaction Enhancer 6 is 16 + 4d6: average 30

Yes, at its absolute max, SA2 + RE6 + BR3 can give you 42 initiative while Wired 3 and RE 6 'only' max out at 40. Really, the difference is miniscule, and average matters more. In either case, they're really quite close, and Wired 3 has the benefit of being less reliant on dice (not to mention giving you a somewhat substantially better Reaction scote). And I don't know why you think Wired 2 is inefficient. That shit is really cheap. There's a reason its de rigeur for mid range combat and bodyguard types.

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 29 2004, 06:52 AM

Is there anything a Rigger can do beyond VCR improvements and Structural Agility?

~J

Posted by: Arethusa May 29 2004, 06:53 AM

He can get in a JIM suit.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator May 29 2004, 07:08 PM

Boosted Reflexes doesn't stack with Wired Reflexes, Arethusa.

Posted by: Arethusa May 29 2004, 07:21 PM

But Reaction Enhancer does.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator May 29 2004, 07:29 PM

Yes, absolutely. However, you said:

Posted by: Moonstone Spider May 29 2004, 08:16 PM

Posted by: Arethusa May 29 2004, 09:16 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 11:06 PM

Posted by: The White Dwarf May 30 2004, 01:52 AM

The boost may be the same Tinker. But I mean since MBW4 gives you two "free" actions at the bottom of the pass it does indeed give you the most chances to act. If thats what you meant and I read your post right.

And Wired 3 / Reaction Enchance 6 might be slightly higher boost on average. But when you run the same math with a base reaction of 6, and consider the entier range of die rolls, Boosted 3 / SA 2 / Reaction Enchnce 6 is better. Because theres more dice involved theres more variance, and with base of 6 you wind up with more actions more often due to the break points on 10s. Least thats what my math showed.

Also, Boosted3/SA2/RE6 takes up less essece/bio space than does the wired 3 track, allowing you to do more with the rest of your guy.

(cant read tinkers chart, /cry)

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 30 2004, 02:26 AM

What I read was that you said MBW didn't give numbers as high as the B3+S2+R6 combo which isn't really true. MBW IV is the best initiative booster in the game. Which is only fitting if you can aford the millions of nuyen to get it (and don't mind taking stress every month and having a high risk of serious side effects).

There are advantages to every setup, though, and no one is the "best". I was only talking about pure speed with the charts.

The file is .xls, can you download it at all? Or just not view it? Standard Excel format (you can view it with open office, which is free, too).

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 30 2004, 02:35 AM

You can also open it with Appleworks if you swing that way.

~J

Posted by: Eyeless Blond May 30 2004, 03:14 AM

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 30 2004, 03:17 AM

It's a lame deep sea diving suit in the Cannon Companion, p. 57. I have no idea what crack Arethusa is smoking, though. They don't do anything for Reaction or Initiative (and only penalize you if you're not rigging it), and even if you're rigging it you can't be rigging a vehicle or drone. Whooptido.

Posted by: Cain May 30 2004, 03:22 AM

MBW IV is the best *single* initiative booster there is. A full combination of enhancers can exceed it rather rapidly. For example, assuming a character with 6 Int and 6 Quick: Add RE 6 + Wired 3 + Suprathyroid + EA, and we have a total of +14 +3d6, for a total of 20 + 4d6. Compare that to MBW 4, which would give that character a whopping 14 + 4d6-- nothing to sneeze at, but not nearly as good.

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 30 2004, 03:27 AM

I'm still liking the two extra actions, though. I mean, even an otherwise unaugmented physad with Quick Strike can beat you to the first punch, so you might as well be able to punch that many more times.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 30 2004, 03:37 AM

In terms of maximum capacity, the R6+W3+bioware2 combo doesn't give you anything over MBW IV. You'll get a slightly higher average initiative, though (+8 +4d6 vs +14 +3d6). Of course, at that point, you're spending enough on them both that you're out of the league of what most PCs will ever see.

Posted by: toturi May 30 2004, 03:45 AM

Posted by: Zeel De Mort May 30 2004, 03:48 AM

JIM suits: You get your the benefits of your VCR if you're rigged in. So I guess if you've blown essence on a VCR3 you can wear one of those and not need to blow a whole lot more on Wired 3 as well. Brings you up to speed with the other characters, although they're hardly very practical..


Another thing about MBW vs Boosted/SI vs Wired is that, since MBW isn't compatible with any other reaction enhancing bio/cyberware you can end up with a higher average initiative with something other than MBW. IF you blow a lot of essence and bio index on all the stuff. Although MBW itself isn't exactly cheap on that front!

It doesn't get you more actions than MBW, but it does make you more likely to go first, which is often more important.

Posted by: Arethusa May 30 2004, 04:27 AM

Rodent, leave the childish antics and temper tantrums at the door. You're getting rather tiresome, and it was never really charming to begin with.

And, hell, you're not even right. JIM suits let riggers use their vehicle Reaction/Initiative and let them use Control pool in place of Combat pool. Practical? Not especially. But it is potentially very useful, very powerful, and easy to get ahold of.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 30 2004, 04:35 AM

"Eh, all the rules are all stupid, especially gun rules, but I'll advocate walking around in a 600+-pound deep sea diving suit. 'Cause that's just too cool and the numbers look decent on paper. Someone thinks otherwise? Well you shut up! I'm the only one allowed to say rules are dumb!" Oy.

JIM suits suck. Period. There's nothing redeeming about them unless you're some kind of Panther Assault-toting Hardened MilSpec Armor-wearing Main Street-walking munchkin. Doing some kind of deep sea diving run? Yeah, they have merit then. Maybe even some kind of vacuum-variant for space travel. But that's about the only time. And, on topic, they certainly don't add anything whatsoever to a rigger's reaction. Not a single thing.

'Course, now that I read the rules in depth, it's even more stupid than I thought. At 300-kilos outside of the water, even with max Strength (a whopping 10), it can't move at all. It's not classified as a vehicle anywhere in the entry either, and there's no specific mention that the armor is hardened. So you get to be a big, immobile target that gets to, yanno, roll a bunch of dice for actions. Even though all someone has to do is stay behind cover (which is right behind you 'cause its doubtful if you can even move your arms to shoot to begin with, and with no Body rating, it can't mount a turret) until you run out of ammo, then shoot you with a heavy pistol with a low target number 'cause you can't dodge.

Posted by: Shadow May 30 2004, 04:39 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 30 2004, 04:42 AM

All right, folks, to your corners. It's true that Arethusa's mention of the JIM suit didn't actually address my question (which was how to squeeze more Reaction and/or Initiative dice out of a Rigger), but no need to get persnickety on either side.

~J

Posted by: Zeel De Mort May 30 2004, 04:49 AM

Not much you can do for riggers really. After the VCR3, I guess a Cerebral Booster 2 would give you another +1, and likewise magic could help you out. Other than that, can't think of anything really.. Perhaps some drugs would work too, dunno about that.

Posted by: Arethusa May 30 2004, 04:55 AM

Posted by: Shadow May 30 2004, 04:57 AM

It says max 10 strenth though, and it weighs 300 kilograms... how do you move it out of water?

Posted by: Arethusa May 30 2004, 05:02 AM

I don't have too much trouble with that one, really. I can swallow a 10 effective Strength after factoring ability to move its own weight. It's not like this'd be the first time body weights did not make sense with Strength scores.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 30 2004, 05:04 AM

Point taken about the hardened aspect. I'll accept that (though it's in CC not M&M), even if it's not explicit.

In any case, your big mistake here is that this time, the immobility aspect is consistant with both reality and the rules. It needs the equivalence of at least 100 kilos of buoyancy in order to have any real mobility.

But I'll stop for now. I apologize for semi-hijacking the thread.

Posted by: Shadow May 30 2004, 05:06 AM

It doesn't say anything about moving its own weight or having an engine, it simply says you can have up to a ten strength.

Considering it's a suit designed for diving and it is modeled after real life suits today, I would say that it can't move worth a crap out of water. Why would it be able to? You could save a ton of money on design and building it. It doesn't make sense for it to be made to walk around. I think this is a case where the rules do make sense, and some unfounded assumptions are being made.

Posted by: Cain May 30 2004, 05:38 AM

Posted by: The White Dwarf May 30 2004, 05:46 AM

Back to original..
mbw= move by wire
wired = wired reflexes
re = reaction enchancers
boost = boosted reflexes
st= suprathyroid gland
sa = synaptic accelerator

Combos w/ averages
MBW4 : +8 reaction, +4 dice : avg of +22 w/ 2 free actions
Wired3, RE6, ST : +13 reaction, +3 dice : avg of +23.5
Boosted3, RE6, ST, SA2 : +9 reaction, +4 dice : avg of +23

Conclusions:

- MBW results in most actions per turn due to the bonus actions. But it isnt the best choice to get a high result to try and go first.
- MBW is by far the hardest and most expensive to obtain, and carries hefty drawbacks even if it is aquired.

- Wired is the best average boost because the least die rolling, meaning you get a more consistant initiative total.
- Wired is the best choice for surprise situations because of the most raw reaction boost, or other reaction test situations.
- Wired 2 is a good mid level bonus choice, at avg +11 for 3 ess/bio.

- Boosted ties MBW for effecieny taking up 7 points of ess/bio before any grade modifiers, compared to Wired's 8.2, if you 'max' the bonuses.
- Boosted can be the most effecient combo, of the high initiative combos, if you dont max out by dropping the suprathyroid gland. (avg +22 for 5.4 space).
- Boosted offers the highest max initiative because it ties for most dice but has a higher reaction boost in total
- Boosted 1 is the best low level bonus, at avg +3.5 for .5 space.

Notes:

Based on your characters base reaction, each of these will have differing effects on your average number of actions per turn, based on how the above values affect where you land on the ten-digits scale. This means that your characters base attributes and role determine what sort of iniative youre looking for, which changes whats best for you.

For example, on a speed character I prefer the Boosted Combo. It leaves the most room for other mods, and because we play where you cant start with cultured bioware it gives me some long term character goals to keep the character from getting 1 dimensional (where the sam starts out with 0.01 ess and doesnt really need to 'advance'). On non-speed characters I usually take boosted 1 because its good bang for the investment and usually means you most always get 2 actions, unless you roll snake eyes or are greviously wounded, and if you roll really well you could get 3. But on adepts, Ill either go with quick strike or improved reflexes 2, because its too point intensive to start with level 3 and level 1 isnt enough bang for the 2 point cost (imo).

So there isnt really a best one, theyre all close. But how much you like or hate to roll for part of your initiative, whether or not you want to max it at chargen or not, and what sort of character its for all change what to get.

There, explained my angle a bit better =p

Posted by: The White Dwarf May 30 2004, 05:48 AM

Addendum, post above mine just reminded me of the adrenal pump, which I really hate due to the details of the item. But, if you add that onto the Wired and Boosted Combos, they do pass MBW by a greater margin.

The stuff I listed is all consistent without any drawbacks or situational stuff (except the MBW brain tumor thing) so its a good reference. But if youre insane and have a character death wish you can use adrenal pump I suppose...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 30 2004, 02:22 PM

You also left out enhnaced articulation If you ignore bioware overstress (and you pretty much have to), the combos would be:

MBW IV: +8 +4d6
W3+R6+EA+ST+A2= +18 +3d6
B3+R6+EA+ST+A2+S2= +14 +4d6

MBW IV is the king in terms of numbers of actions because of the bonus actions, highest initiative goes to the Wired 3 combo.

Base costs:

Posted by: The White Dwarf May 30 2004, 05:29 PM

I left that out cause it stacks with everything, same as quickness aug bioware for example. Maybe I added wrong, but I got higher with boosted (using what I said above). It has less reaction boost but if all the dice come up 6 it wins out. Of course it may very well have a lower average, or less average actions per turn; I didnt run those numbers for anything but the character I did the whole list for. Regardless its a very tiny difference in the end result, theyre all actually pretty close. Which, to me, shows that this area of the game is pretty well balanced: theres several paths and combinations you can juggle depending on character, but none outshines the other in the end. Nice work.

Posted by: Phaeton May 30 2004, 05:34 PM

I find it surprising that no one has mentioned combat drugs in this thread yet...Or else I missed it when someone did mention them.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size May 30 2004, 05:38 PM

Actually I don't think Enhanced Articulation can work with Move-By-Wire and a few other augmentations that specifically state that they do not work with *any* Reaction-boosting 'ware.

A quick scan shows that its pretty much restricted only to Move-By-Wire, the Improved Reflexes adept power, and the Increase Reflexes spell. Everything else has no such restriction or limits it only to Initiative-boosting augmentations only.

But yeah, combat drugs can skyrocket the dice beyond the limits for everything except the magical boosts. This is definitely true of Increase Reflexes (it's not compatible with *anything* that boosts Initiative), but one can argue the case for Improved Reflexes since it only restricts magical and technological boosts. I'm of the mind that drugs, especially tailored combat drugs, should count as technological if for no other reason that it fits the flavor of the adept's restriction.

So beyond effectively eliminating magical boosts from the running to see which combo is the fastest, combat drugs cancel out since they can be applied to everything else equally.

Posted by: Phaeton May 30 2004, 06:13 PM

How someone with MBW-4 manages for their hearts not to explode when they pump some Kamikaze into their system is beyond me...

Posted by: Cain May 30 2004, 10:02 PM

Posted by: Cirenya May 31 2004, 12:17 PM

BTW the adrenalin surge edge is incompatible with any reaction enhancement, inclusive magic...
No one have mentioned the ligthning reflexes edge yet, gives a 1-3 reaction bonus for 2-6BP, but I don't remenber if it haves limitations, or it just is a flat bonus to reaction...

Posted by: toturi May 31 2004, 01:12 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 31 2004, 05:31 PM

Lightning Reflexes only applies in Surprise Tests, IIRC.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 31 2004, 05:47 PM

Posted by: Shadow May 31 2004, 05:52 PM

Posted by: Cirenya Jun 1 2004, 06:40 AM

As I understand it, or at least the I would use it, it is the moment you use that matters...
So a mage with adrenelin surge, could only use it when he has no active reaction enhancing spells....
If not, just anyone could claim;" but I got adrenelin surge before I got wired... so it stil applies..."

I see it as a way to give the characters without any reaction-enhancement a chance to act quickly...

Posted by: TheCat Jun 11 2004, 02:02 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 11 2004, 02:09 AM

With that combination, some deity comes down and gives you extra hearts so that they can explode.

~J

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 11 2004, 02:16 AM