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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Munchy Face builds
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 1 2004, 12:18 AM
Just curious, I got a taste of a face last session, would like to see a good one.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 1 2004, 12:31 AM
Finally got kissed, eh? 
Really, though, most Face munchiness involves Cultured Tailored Pheremones, and thus is not available at chargen.
~J
Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 1 2004, 12:33 AM
Bonus Attribute: Charisma, maxed Charisma, and the Aptitude (Etiquette and/or Negotiation), Good Looking & Knows It, Good Reputation 2, Friendly Face, and Connected edges as well as judicial selection of a wide spectrum of contacts can be devestatingly powerful in a good player's hands.
Design one as an adept and initiate twice as soon as you can (taking Centering and Centering: Social), then follow that up with Cultured Pheromones 2, and... there's quite a bit of suspension of disbelief required to understand why someone who can do what this guy can do is still working the shadows. 
If you go the extra step and make him a physical mage and focus on Elemental Earth or a totem like Lover or Seductress, you can even snag some hefty benefits with spells like Influence and Control Thoughts when your natural charm somehow manages to fail you.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 1 2004, 12:53 AM
When you can command millions of nuyen to intimidate a second-rate gang, running the Shadows sounds a lot more attractive
~J
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 01:54 AM
Contacts. Have a huge pile of contacts for virtually every situation. The run is against an Ares facility? You call up the janitor and get him to leave a back door open. You're facing a rare biotech weapon? You just happen to know a leading biotech weaponry research scientist.
Etc, etc.
Intelligence 6 is also important since negotiations is done against it (check the errata if you have an old copy of the big black book... most of them say it's Willpower. It's not).
And a tip for the wise... until you're really, really good at negotiation, don't try to bargain with the Johnson for better pay. You'll probably loose money.
Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 1 2004, 02:02 AM
I've also found Acting (Improvisational) and Psychology to be really useful, and they come up as complimentary skills quite a bit, too. Fake IDs, lifestyles, and clothes are important as well.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 02:40 AM
Don't forget skills like Disguise (from SOTA63) and Interview. Faces need quite a lot of skills... I'd be tempted to design around Skills A, Resources B (for contacts and cyber).
Speaking of cyber, recording ware (camera, ear recorder, etc) are popular since you can get the Johnson's identity down more easily. Add in voice modulation with a secondary patern and you're in business for infiltration work, as well. There are all sorts of toys in SOTA63 for fooling security, as well.
Posted by: GunnerJ Jun 1 2004, 02:40 AM
| QUOTE |
And a tip for the wise... until you're really, really good at negotiation, don't try to bargain with the Johnson for better pay. You'll probably loose money. |
This depends entirely on the GM and the group. In my group's game, negotiating for higher pay is half a face's job.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 02:54 AM
Well, the Mr. Johnson in the BBB has Int 6, Negotiation 6. If you can reliably beat that, then you're good to go. If you can't... well, then you'd better be certain of how your GM handles negotiations before you even try.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 1 2004, 06:36 AM
nothing beats haveing an elf and atleast one dragon on the call list
oh and if your after cyberware, grab some retractable cyberskates. you never know when you need to get out of there in a hurry (oops a rool when trying to get a gang to do something is not a good idea if you dont have a escape plan)...
Posted by: snowRaven Jun 1 2004, 12:32 PM
Most of the keys to a good face have been mentioned, so I'll just put dow an example character from those:
Human Adept(Elves do get the charisma bonus, but you'll more often deal with ppl who hate elves than ppl who hate humans - and the extra karma pool may be very useful later on)
Attributes
B 3
Q 4
S 3
C 7
I 6
W 6
Active Skills
Disguise 4(Cosmetic 6)
Etiquette 6
Interrogation 6
Negotiation 6
Pistols 4
Stealth 5
Knowledge Skills
Edges & Flaws
Powers
Resources
First three initiations should be spent as follows:
Masking - magic point lost to bioware (Cultured Tailored Pheromones Level 2, Clean Metabolism, Dietware, Mnemonic Enhancer 3, Nephritic Screen)
Centering - increase Magic Resistance by 1.
Centering (Social skills) - magic point lost to bioware (Cerebral Booster 2, Synaptic Accelerator 1 - which leaves approx. 0.9 BI to use as approperiate)
Other priorities include:
- Getting the Improved Looks surgical option.
- Eventually learning a defensive martial art and getting the Improved Ability Power for it.
- Possibly spending an essence point on a radio or telephone w/transducer, commlink and subdermal speakers.
Posted by: Abstruse Jun 1 2004, 12:37 PM
At least one contact for every AAA company and try to get two -- one service-level (security, janitor, decker, etc.) and one exec-level (Johnson, exec, secretary) as the info they provide will be different. Mafia/Yakuza/Triad contacts are good as well, same with various policlubs (TerraFirst, Ork Rights Committee, etc.) and non-profit corps (Draco Foundation, Atlantis). Government contacts are important too and at varying levels (pencil pusher and decision maker) for every government in the area you're playing and one in ones you're likely to deal with (In Denver? Two from every sector and an additional from at least 3 mainlain gov'ts. In Seattle? Two each Salish, Tir, Seattle/UCAS gov't).
Elf with maxed Chr, Int, and Wil, Bonus Att. Point (Chr), no obvious cyber other than a datajack and chipjack if you can help it. Good Looking and Knows It, Connected, Human Looking (if meta), Good Reputation, and other various +x to Social Tests feats. Tres Chic clothes and the armored clothes from CC that count as Tres Chic, High lifestyle at minimum (or use the SSG custome lifestyle rules to create a lifestyle that at least appears High/Luxury if you can't afford it). Max Etiquette (don't bother specializing) and Negotiations at minimum, Interrogation and Intimidation are good ones to have high. Try to make sure you can do something productive for the team other than just sweet-talking people, and that you can shoot well enough to at least find yourself cover (HIGH CONCEAL ON YOUR WEAPONS! Concealable holsters and long coats are your friends!) Rating 6 fake IDs are a must as well. Make sure to save enough essence/bio index to get Tailored Pheremones as soon as you have the cash. Knowlege and language skills are important as well, try not to chip them if you can help it. Get a couple of sets of regular and fine clothing and some cheapo armor for when you have to slum it (going into the Barrens wearing a 4000¥ armored long coat and 4000¥ and a 1000¥ outfit is a good way to attract unwanted attention). I know a lot of guys feel weird about playing female characters, but women are much more likely to be trusted by men and it's much easier to manipulate men if you're an attractive woman.
Finally, if your GM doesn't know about the contact upkeep rules, DON'T TELL HIM!!! If he does know, BEG HIM NOT TO USE THEM!!!!
The Abstruse One
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 12:57 PM
Contact upkeep rules can really ruin a face's day. I personally don't like them that much. They don't add much to the game except serve to make sure the PCs have as few contacts as possible. And really, why penalize your PCs for giving you adventure hooks?
You should have to spend a little time maintaining contacts. You should also have to return favors for contacts. Upkeep for the sake of upkeep isn't fun, though. Though if the GM is doing SOTA and vehicle upkeep, it's fair.
Posted by: toturi Jun 1 2004, 01:18 PM
Contact upkeep rules keep Faces honest. They have only so much time on their hands, the time alone for upkeeping 20+ just isn't feasible (game balance) or realistic (IRL).
Just like Riggers don't really have time to upkeep their whole fleet of 100 drones.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 1 2004, 02:42 PM
It depends on your downtime/cash ratios. If you pull two runs a month with about a week of downtime, then cash is probably the way to go. If you manage one run a month (or less) and have vast amounts of downtime, on average, I don't see why cash should be the determining factor.
Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 1 2004, 04:09 PM
A Charisma over 7 is generally wasted. Social encounters are skill based or rely on Intelligence or Willpower for "resistance" rolls. Charisma is pretty much only used to determine a target number modifier, and "7 or higher" is the highest such modifier that I know of. A human with Charisma 6 and the Bonus Attribute: Charisma edge is just as effective as a Face as any elf. The only thing a higher Charisma is useful for is if you're going to advance your Social Skills to extreme levels, but that's generally unnecessary once you get them to 6 or so and snag Cultured Pheromones 2 (+4 dice).
You also want to be fairly tall, and having some kind of flashy magical or supernatural trick up your sleeves can come in handy when it comes time to intimidate or interrogate someone.
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 1 2004, 05:51 PM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| Intelligence 6 is also important since negotiations is done against it (check the errata if you have an old copy of the big black book... most of them say it's Willpower. It's not). And a tip for the wise... until you're really, really good at negotiation, don't try to bargain with the Johnson for better pay. You'll probably loose money. Mr. Johnson in the BBB has Int 6, Negotiation 6. If you can reliably beat that, then you're good to go. If you can't... well, then you'd better be certain of how your GM handles negotiations before you even try. |
On this note, remember Tailored Pheremones work both ways. Megacorps have the
to hire a good-looking Johnson and pimp him out. Your team negotiator wouldn't be remiss in buying a rating 4 Air Filter, Tracheal Filter, or if your GM rules those don't work, an Internal Air Tank.
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 1 2004, 05:53 PM
Or better yet, your Face has a very sensitive nose and recognizes the pheremones by scent and can consciously over come them (of course the Johnson can do the same. And before anyone tells me you can't smell them consciously, you can)
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 1 2004, 06:28 PM
I'd let that work about as well as I'd let someone who just took a few doses of Kamikaze to consciously overcome them.
~J
Posted by: Large Mike Jun 1 2004, 08:49 PM
Yeah. I've used it and had it used on me. Even when you know it's there, it still affects you.
Posted by: Siege Jun 1 2004, 08:56 PM
Willpower rolls might be permitted, in both pheremone and kamikaze rolls but you're still going to be affected to a certain degree.
All the Willpower in the world won't keep you sober with X amount of alochol in your system, but you might be able to influence your actions.
-Siege
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 1 2004, 10:38 PM
Wheres "Good Looking and Knows It"? Cant find it
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 1 2004, 10:40 PM
It's in the Companion too, but it's an example of how to make up a new edge. Most people take it as being canon.
Top of p17.
Posted by: Siege Jun 1 2004, 10:40 PM
It's the Edge discussed in the opening paragraph of "Edges/Flaws" section of the SR Companion.
Read the "how to build an edge/flaw" text.
-Siege
Posted by: tisoz Jun 1 2004, 10:53 PM
It's also in the Edges table on page 32, making it pretty canon IMO.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 1 2004, 11:03 PM
Yep.
I'm one of the many who takes it as such. In fact my current character has the edge. Quite nice it is too.
Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 1 2004, 11:06 PM
It's one of my all time favorites, right up there with Gremlins 2 and Pirate Family (used with gangs, gypsies, and etc.). It just reeks of style.
Posted by: Siege Jun 1 2004, 11:12 PM
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| It's also in the Edges table on page 32, making it pretty canon IMO. |
Never implied otherwise.
I assumed he was looking for the flavor description.
-Siege
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 02:42 AM
Still don't see "Good Looking and Knows It",..
Posted by: Connor Jun 2 2004, 02:47 AM
Good Looking and Knows It is where it talkes about making up your own edges and flaws I believe, and it's used as the example. If memory serves.
Posted by: Siege Jun 2 2004, 02:53 AM
Pages 16-17, "Designing Edges and Flaws".
-Siege
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 02:56 AM
Ahh I see it, cool. Is there any bio/cyberware that boosts social besides cultured pheremones?
Posted by: Siege Jun 2 2004, 02:57 AM
| QUOTE (cutter07) |
| Ahh I see it, cool. Is there any bio/cyberware that boosts social besides cultured pheremones? |
Not directly.
-Siege
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 2 2004, 03:17 AM
Cerebral Booster II bumps INT by 2, good for opposed Negotiations. Also more skill points of you can take it at creation.
Posted by: Abstruse Jun 2 2004, 12:04 PM
You can't get it at CharGen by canon rules since a Cerebral Booster is cultured bioware, but you can try talking to your GM and explaining it's part of the character's background or see if he'll let you roll to get it through your contacts but at chargen instead of in-game.
The Abstruse One
Posted by: shadd4d Jun 2 2004, 02:45 PM
The more I think about it, I really don't like that rule. It would have been easier to point out that neuralware can't be cultured due to being neural rather than saying it is cultured.
Don
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 02:56 PM
All "cultured" means is that it has to be grown from your cells in order to work properly. Some stuff can only be grown from your own cells, some stuff is just easier for your body to accept if it is.
So called "basic" cyberware is grown from some sort of stock cells instead. It apparently takes better equipment in order to grow the cultured stuff (beta clinic equivalent, apparently), which is the reason for the "rule" about not taking it at character gen.
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 2 2004, 03:00 PM
IIRC, that is inthe FAQ, not the standard rules. I usually handle it case by case. If you have a darend good reason/concept then cool. Like a street sam wanting a sleep regulator, I have no issue with.
For munhcy face, I suggest the menonic enhancers, extra knowledge skill dice, language dice and cheaper improvement costs over all.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 03:01 PM
Same text is now in M&M per the errata. It's still a strong suggestion rather than a rule, though.
[edit] To be specific:
| QUOTE (M&M Errata) |
| p. 77 Bioware Grades [4] Add the following line: Finding a bioware clinic follows the rules on p. 40. Cultured bioware can only be obtained from beta-level or higher clinics. It is recommended that cultured bioware not be available to starting characters. |
Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 2 2004, 03:36 PM
| QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size) |
| The only thing a higher Charisma is useful for is if you're going to advance your Social Skills to extreme levels, but that's generally unnecessary once you get them to 6 or so and snag Cultured Pheromones 2 (+4 dice). |
On the other hand, you could have roleplay reasons to avoid getting implants when skills will work just as well.
Cultured Pheromones 2 was the top item on my face character's list of stuff to get, until he found out he was going to be a father (thanks to a night of heavy drinking with the assassin girl plus a sense of responsibility that seemed to surpise everyone). At that point, he decided to avoid getting any more implants, because he felt he'd need to justify the choice to his daughter (he only has about 1.5 essence and 2 bioindex used up).
Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 03:52 PM
| QUOTE (Sahandrian) | ||
On the other hand, you could have roleplay reasons to avoid getting implants when skills will work just as well. Cultured Pheromones 2 was the top item on my face character's list of stuff to get, until he found out he was going to be a father (thanks to a night of heavy drinking with the assassin girl plus a sense of responsibility that seemed to surpise everyone). At that point, he decided to avoid getting any more implants, because he felt he'd need to justify the choice to his daughter (he only has about 1.5 essence and 2 bioindex used up). |
I would just like to note that said assassin girl was originally a GUY.
...Until an incident with a free spirit, anyway.
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 2 2004, 04:38 PM
| QUOTE (Number 6) |
| Cerebral Booster II bumps INT by 2, good for opposed Negotiations. Also more skill points of you can take it at creation. |
Sorry guys that was supposed to read "if you can take it at character creation" hopefully implying GM permission. Which, really, should always be considered anyway.
Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 2 2004, 05:10 PM
| QUOTE (Phaeton) |
| I would just like to note that said assassin girl was originally a GUY. ...Until an incident with a free spirit, anyway. |
Knew you'd bring that up if I mentioned the relationship storyline...
Posted by: tisoz Jun 2 2004, 10:11 PM
| QUOTE (cutter07) |
| Is there any <snip>cyberware that boosts social <snip>? |
You could get skillwires and the relevant charisma linked skills on chip. Then you don't have many reasons to have a charisma over 1. (There is the Reduce Charisma spell, but it is so difficult to cast hardly anyone bothers.)
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 11:10 PM
With a high enough charisma (looking at a charisma of 12ish), TP lvl 2, and all the social edges there isn't much reason to have the skills it seems. Even with defaulting to charisma the edges offset the +4 easily (more so if opposite sex) and make saving the skill points for other skills awefully attractive.
Or am I just smoking the buy 1 get 1 free crack rock here?
Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 11:21 PM
If just getting one success was your goal, sure. Unfortunately, with most opposed rolls in Shadowrun, you want more than one success. Skill 6 (+4 from Pheromones) at TN 2 is gonna get you a lot more than Charisma 12 (+4 from Pheromones) at TN 6. You may see the modifiers from social edges as a "cancellation" of penalties, but they're still penalties compared to someone who actually has the skill.
Posted by: Glyph Jun 3 2004, 03:16 AM
Also remember that all of those bonuses are unlikely to apply at once. Good Looking and Knows It only works for initial impressions, and Friendly Face only works when you are trying to fit into a new situation. Good Reputation is for people who are familiar with your reputation. So you would really only get all of the bonuses if you run into someone who has heard glowing things about you, but never actually met you before. For all subsequent encounters, you will only have the Good Reputation Edge working for you (plus Aptitude, but you can only take Aptitude for skills... not Attributes. So it wouldn't be applicable for defaulting).
You could get away with it in a lot of situations, but it's like a Rigger who only takes one vehicle skill because his VCR lowers the penalties for defaulting. You are making yourself less effective at your primary function, and it is not a good idea. Mainly because in either case, you will often be going head-to-head with opponents with the same advantages, who are able to squash someone who is just defaulting.
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 03:20 AM
| QUOTE |
| Good Looking and Knows It only works for initial impressions, |
I'm getting the 2 point version rather then the 1 point version. The -2 is awesome but the initial "friendly" rating to opposite sex is pretty handy for the assassin chick types.
Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 3 2004, 03:55 AM
| QUOTE (cutter07) | ||
I'm getting the 2 point version rather then the 1 point version. The -2 is awesome but the initial "friendly" rating to opposite sex is pretty handy for the assassin chick types. |
i wasnt aware you could do that with edges.
in that case get the 8 point edge so you can make them do anything you want
Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 05:50 AM
| QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton) |
| i wasnt aware you could do that with edges. |
I believe what cutter07 is referring to is the "original design" of the edge, when it applied at all times.
You got an extra bonus (New NPCs treat character as friendly) when meeting people for the first time.
However, the flavor text states fairly clearly that it became a 1 point edge with the limitation that it only work on initial contact.
Posted by: Glyph Jun 3 2004, 06:49 AM
Actually, if you read it carefully, the player was arguing that it should cost less because of that limitation - in other words, that limitation was part of the original Edge, and they were only dickering over the cost of it. You get both bonuses (the TN bonus, and NPCs have a "friendly" reaction to the character) for the 1-point Edge, but they only apply to initial contacts with an NPC.
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 08:36 AM
Right I got you Glyph. Thats for the one point version. But I'm going to pay the two points for the version that works beyond initial contacts as this can help in other ways, such as making requests of contacts/buddies/etc. Paying the extra point allows for the extended use of the edge. While the book says what they finally agree on the initial form of the edge that both the GM agrees on, its only the player that wants the cheaper version. I'm going to run this by my GM and see if he feels its acceptable.
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