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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ permits?

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 1 2004, 10:07 PM

if the legality code doesnt have a "P" in it is there no way to get a permit?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 1 2004, 10:08 PM

Correct. If there is no P, no permit exists in Seattle.

~J

Posted by: Lantzer Jun 1 2004, 10:27 PM

Which means that if you pack a knife you are a bad man.

(Well, at least the legality code isn't that bad.)

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 1 2004, 10:28 PM

Well that was quick

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 1 2004, 10:43 PM

so personal security cannot carry an SMG?

Posted by: Tal Jun 1 2004, 10:49 PM

It's a personal permit for civilians to carry firearms, probably for their own safety.

Corp guards have extra-territoriality, so they're exempt.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 1 2004, 10:53 PM

i was talking about private security agencies

corps casn outfit guaards with whatever they like

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 1 2004, 11:04 PM

The P is for civilians to obtain permits. Corporations have the right to military assembly, meaning they can acquire permits for quote security purposes and megacorps can acquire permits for military hardware.

The three levels of availability are Civilian, Security, and Military. GM discretion on most items, though some vehicles and others specifically mention Security or Military grade.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 1 2004, 11:06 PM

Private security agencies are tricky, because a lot of the time the place they patrol is not extraterritorial so that doesnt help them at all. Private security companies still need permits for everything to patrol in the plex.

Posted by: Abstruse Jun 1 2004, 11:12 PM

Security permit != Civilian permit. You're not getting a security permit unless you're a licensed corporation (want to roleplay filling out 150 pages worth of applications?)

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 1 2004, 11:29 PM

If the GM will make the paperwork for me, sure

~J

Posted by: Abstruse Jun 1 2004, 11:48 PM

Sorry, I left out a 0...that should be 1500 page. And I'd just print out every spam email I get for a home moriage and make you fill that out if you tried it in my game.

In quadruplicate.

And I get a LOOOOOOT of spam.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Tal Jun 2 2004, 12:35 AM

Well, let's see. The two major private security companies in North America are Lone Star and Knight Errant, yah? From what I can remember, they've both got some pretty hefty contracts running, so they'd both qualify for megacorp staus, right? Wammo, instant right to bear arms.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 2 2004, 01:08 AM

Lone Star is a Mega, AA. Knight Errant alone is just an A if I remember, Not technically a mega and not extraterritorial. Which doesn't matter, extraterritoriality doesn't help you if your not on corp owned propery, because if you're not your subject to all the law and restrictions of where you are, like the seattle metroplex for instance.

Posted by: Connor Jun 2 2004, 02:09 AM

Well, Knight Errant might not be a mega corp in it's own right, but it is a direct subsidiary of Ares and I believe that carries with it the Ares extraterritorality and such.

If someone with more intimate knowledge of how that works in sr, as far as subsidiaries having the extraterritorality of thier parent corp and such, feel free to expand on it. I'm really only referring to the subsidiaries the parent corp, like Ares, makes no bones about, like Knight Errant.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 2 2004, 02:18 AM

I imagine they would, but that means nothing unless they're operating on KE territory, which, by definition, is not what they do, for the most part.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 2 2004, 02:22 AM

What arethusa said was pretty much my point, extraterritoriality is irrelevant for a secrity provider because 99% of the time they're on the property of the person paying them, not in their HQ.

Posted by: Connor Jun 2 2004, 02:44 AM

Ahh, yeah, that does makes sense. If Lonestar or Knight Errant are working for a single A corp or something they probably have to pretty much stick to the governments rules. Although, I imagine certain provisions exist to give them licenses or permits for weapons/vehicles/gear that aren't marked as 'P'.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 2 2004, 02:54 AM

That makes some sense, but it's not necessarily true.

Posted by: Connor Jun 2 2004, 03:10 AM

No, not entirely. It would depend on a lot of factors, including the local government, the corp being protected by the security, how much they're willing to pay, etc...

In my games though, Lone Star and Knight Errant really only get hired by the big corps that don't have security assets of their own. I see them being too focused on the larger customer to be competitive for smaller corps and cities.

Hard Corps and other smaller security firms are the ones I usually use on the lower rungs, and of course, them being smaller themselves, means they have to abide by more outside rules and regulations, etc.

Although, mixing it up is the fun part.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 11 2004, 03:58 AM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

Knight Errant is a AA megacorp.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 11 2004, 10:13 AM

Also keep in mind that they are usually contracted by whoever owns the land they are working on. If they get contracted by some extrateritorial corp and this corp specifically allows them to carry X weapon even though they don't have a permit for it (for example on Metroplex ground) then they're perfectly fine. All they have to do is ask whoever makes the laws for the land - Which can of course be a far from trivial task in some cases - like working for a small corp on metroplex ground. But then again those companies can get security licences since they are licensed and recognized security corporations in Seattle so that's taken care of.

Posted by: toturi Jun 11 2004, 10:47 AM

QUOTE (MrSandman666)

An extraterritorial corp asking some other sec corp to guard their property? Doesn't anyone else see what's wrong with that?

Posted by: tjn Jun 11 2004, 02:32 PM

And extraterritorial corps are just tripping over themselves with security forces?

It's still a business, and if it would cost less money to outsource those particular jobs then to train their own, they're going to use the least expensive measure because it looks better to their boss.

Are the security forces going to know all the deep dark secrets of said facility?

Hell no, they're going to be as far away as possible and treated like mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed a lot of drek.

Anything vital to the umbrella corp is going to be protected by their own security (because it would cost more to loose what they have, then to train the security forces to protect it).

But that doesn't indicate that the majority of their security forces for non-vital areas will be taken care of by themselves. It will go to those who can do it cheaper. If that's means another corp under the same mega, hey, great. If not, well the corp manager isn't about to make his own profits take a dive to "keep it in the family" as it were.

Remember, it all boils down to the almighty nuyen. Just because they can field security forces, doesn't mean it's profitable to field security forces.

EDIT: Mind doesn't work well in the morning

Posted by: shadd4d Jun 11 2004, 02:56 PM

This reminds me of that line in Corp Sec Handbook: KE or whoever will take any action against your enemies you care to order, as long as we pretend to know nothing about it if it goes bust.

Still, I'd bet on megas having their own wholely subsidies for just that occasion. Still, there is something to be said for outsourcing. And yes, KE is pretty international; they're one of the few foreign services in the ADL.

Don

Posted by: Bearclaw Jun 11 2004, 06:56 PM

Just a little reminder.
People are not extra-territorial. Locations are. Renraku Red Samurai are breaking the law if they kick in your appartment door and shoot your meat body while you are decked into their matrix.
Of course, if they take a couple of minutes to contact their liason within Lonestar, the Star will send over a car, and ask for "backup".

Being a member of a AAA mega with extraterritoriality doesn't give you carte blanche outside of your corp enclave. Seattles streets belong to the UCAS and everyone is subject to their laws (give or take, in theory, etc etc etc).

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 11 2004, 09:30 PM

[edit] I would say: If you violate a crime on extraterritorial property, the Megacorps, due to the Business Accords, have the right to "pursue" the perpetrator onto UCAS soil.

Any crime committed in the Matrix is considered to happen at the location of the server. The Red Samurai are breaking no law unless they kill you without cause on UCAS soil. And if you're still in their system on the Matrix when they kill you, you are not on UCAS soil.

Posted by: Inquisitus Jun 11 2004, 11:46 PM

Don't KE and LS vehicles also qualify as extraterritorial (chattel)? But then, it isn't like Mr. Rank-and-File LS cop is going to be needing to pack an MP-5 TX on his beat because it makes him feel more secure. I'd venture that the only KE or LS grunts who would ever get to use that type of firepower are those who are well out of the sight of those who would care to tell the man with the assualt rifle that he shouldn't be walking down the street with it anyway. Renraku, of course, is a different story entirely...

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 12 2004, 12:26 AM

QUOTE

If you violate a crime on extraterritorial property, the Megacorps, due to the Business Accords, have the right to "pursue" the perpetrator onto UCAS soil.

Do ypu have a page number and a quote to back that up? I have never, ever seen anything remotely like that. Corps hane no juristiction whatsoever off their own extraterritorial property AFAIK. I just looked through Lone Star, Corp Download and Corp Shadowfiles and could find nothing to this effect.

QUOTE

The Red Samurai are breaking no law unless they kill you without cause on UCAS soil. And if you're still in their system on the Matrix when they kill you, you are not on UCAS soil.

That is true, but only because at the time they attack you you're legally on their property.

QUOTE

Don't KE and LS vehicles also qualify as extraterritorial (chattel)?

No. There's a very specific set of criteria that determines if something is extraterritorial and neither vehicles nor people can meet it.

The Lone Star precint houses aren't even extraterritorial because they're owned by the metroplex, but their corporate headquarters are.

QUOTE

I'd venture that the only KE or LS grunts who would ever get to use that type of firepower are those who are well out of the sight of those who would care to tell the man with the assualt rifle that he shouldn't be walking down the street with it anyway.

That's a really bad assumption. Patrol cars today carry AR-15's as standard equipment in my city and the 2 adjoining. If anything SR is more militant in that regard than we are today.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 12 2004, 01:06 AM

QUOTE

If you violate a crime on extraterritorial property, the Megacorps, due to the Business Accords, have the right to "pursue" the perpetrator onto UCAS soil.

Do you have a page number and a quote to back that up?

No I don't which means my mind either made it up (edited to reflect) or it is in an adventure/Seattle SB somewhere. I'll see if I can find it, but the seed of doubt is growing.

Can't foreign powers have forces pursue suspects from embassies? I'll look that up, right now even.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 12 2004, 01:08 AM

QUOTE

Can't foreign powers have forces pursue suspects from embassies?

As long as they dont break any of the laws of the country they're pursuing through sure!

Posted by: Inquisitus Jun 12 2004, 04:05 AM

QUOTE

QUOTE
I'd venture that the only KE or LS grunts who would ever get to use that type of firepower are those who are well out of the sight of those who would care to tell the man with the assualt rifle that he shouldn't be walking down the street with it anyway.

That's a really bad assumption. Patrol cars today carry AR-15's as standard equipment in my city and the 2 adjoining. If anything SR is more militant in that regard than we are today.

Although it is true that some of the officers in Los Vegas and Cook County in general are armed with AR-15s, it's important to remember that the AR-15, a semi-automatic weapon, is hardly comprable with something like the MP-5 which operates in semi, burst, and fully-automatic modes. Not to mention the fact that all of the friendly folks at LS are already packing a heavy pistol that is capable of burst fire- a far cry from the 9mms and .357s semis that the police are packing now.

Posted by: Inquisitus Jun 12 2004, 04:05 AM

QUOTE

That's a really bad assumption. Patrol cars today carry AR-15's as standard equipment in my city and the 2 adjoining. If anything SR is more militant in that regard than we are today.

Posted by: Inquisitus Jun 12 2004, 04:06 AM

QUOTE

That's a really bad assumption. Patrol cars today carry AR-15's as standard equipment in my city and the 2 adjoining. If anything SR is more militant in that regard than we are today.

Posted by: Inquisitus Jun 12 2004, 04:09 AM

Whoa, my computer went all screwy on me there for a second, sorry about the repeated posts above.

Posted by: Siege Jun 12 2004, 01:05 PM

In a scenario where trolls and orks abound and cyberware exists to make either into a walking tank, burst fire weapons for patrol officers seems perfectly reasonable.

Given the legality of body armor, I'm surprised LS hasn't seen fit to issue APDS or even a mag of AP to it's officers.

-Siege

Posted by: toturi Jun 12 2004, 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jun 12 2004, 02:56 AM)

A member of my gaming group had a PC who had a Day Job as an Intelligence Analyst in the Department of Defense. Anyway, all his weapons had the DoD seal and "Property of the UCAS Government"stamped on them and a secure briefcase with him almost all of the time, he was pulled over after a run by Lone Star. He gave the requisite warning and blew away the cops quoting that he had the right to exercise deadly force to prevent classified documents from falling into the hands of unauthorised personel.

LS: Sir, please step out of the car.
PC: Do not touch my briefcase or my weapon.
LS: Please surrender the briefcase and your weapons.
PC: I am not authorised to do so.
LS: Put down the fragging gun and briefcase down.
PC: I am authorised to use deadly force to prevent DoD property from falling into the hands of unauthorised personel. You are not cleared, sir.

Posted by: Abstruse Jun 12 2004, 02:06 PM

Corporate Shadowfiles talks about extraterritoriality of corps. Basically, Lone Star can't follow you onto corporate property and corp security can't follow you out of the complex......technically. They can if the other side either has an agreement allowing it or if they give permission first. Again, this is technically. Just like technically Lone Star must issue a warning before they open fire, even though it usually ends up more like *BLAM*BLAM*BLAM*BLAM* "Freeze!"

The Abstruse One

Posted by: toturi Jun 12 2004, 02:10 PM

If they do not have an agreement, technically they are probably breaking the law, which means technically can be blown away by anyone with quasi-security(sheriff, FBI, ATF, etc) status.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 12 2004, 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

Not really. That Thunderbolt is an abysmal combat weapon. 4 shots is not exactly a tactically flexible number, and a complete inability to do anything but cut your target in half is not great street law enforcement. When you really have to hit back, there could be a light assault rifle or shotgun in the front, just as in real life.

As for AP(DS), armor's easy to get now and has been used in a certain famous bank robbery. No police department's bothered to issue and form of AP yet, unless you count AR15s in the trunk.

Posted by: Siege Jun 12 2004, 07:27 PM

Body armor is legal in real life, however it doesn't share the proliferation that it does in SR.

A secure or armored jacket is almost requisite street wear, regardless of whether or not you plan on rumbling. Which is rated 5/3 -- enough to give most light pistols pause and make heavy pistols work for it.

The burst feature enables a higher damage code -- making it more likely to penetrate armor and make heavily armored people or orks or trolls sit up and take notice. Granted, neither orks, nor trolls or even cyberware junkies wander today's streets, even if we accept the idea that burst fire weapons have better chances of penetrating armor irl. So it makes a vaguely better idea using the SR model of physics.

And while a four-shot weapon isn't the best for protracted field use, LS officers are not forward units in a combat zone. LS Officers can expect fairly fast backup and re-supply if needed.

And I'll grant you that a shotgun or AR is best for deterring or terminating serious hostilities, they aren't always immediately available. Traffic stops can be such a pain.

-Siege

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 12 2004, 07:32 PM

I strongly advocate adding a SA mode to thunderbolts as I did, makes them far more useful. I ignored all their funky recoil crap and just have them all come standard with a Gas Vent 4 and a custom grip, it's not concealable, but the police could care less about if their uniform sidearm is concealable.

Posted by: BGMFH Jun 12 2004, 07:49 PM

As to weapons and security permits...

Shooting a vehicle is an excellent Law Enforcement tactic.

But did you know that in several states that is an illegal use of deadly force?

Once the suspect is in the vehicle, he is no longer a threat.
No longer a threat, you cannot fire.
If suspect drives towards you, you can move without discharging your weapon.

Long discussion last night, one of my fellow security officers had a run-in with an armed trespasser last night. Luckily the PD arrived real quick.

Posted by: Noctum Jun 12 2004, 10:57 PM

I think this works very much like our current rights about Bearing arms in our own defence... If KE or The Star are patrolling they are given Permission to Carry certain kinds of Arms. But they are also bound by the Laws which state that security or Law Enforcment may not escilate the violence beyond that which is directed at them.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 13 2004, 04:31 AM

QUOTE (Siege @ Jun 12 2004, 12:27 PM)

Body armor is legal in real life, however it doesn't share the proliferation that it does in SR.

But in California (and I assume some other states), convicted felons cannot wear it legally. This may be a problem for some runners.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 13 2004, 04:32 AM

Depends on the state. I believe 30 or so bar convicted felons from purchasing it.