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Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 02:29 AM

Gyrojet gets my vote

Posted by: Chance359 Jun 2 2004, 02:49 AM

Tazers.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 02:50 AM

Really? Why so? Pretty limited on range

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 02:52 AM

Elemental damage. Nuff said

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 02:55 AM

No fair Tinker. I meant a weapon you can buy. And salary wage mages don't count.

Posted by: northern lights Jun 2 2004, 02:56 AM

shotgun. selectable clip. sand or stone for elemental damage in shot shells. capsule rounds in the other with preferred liquid. fab III? or maybe some type of acid.

but cyber implanted tasers have destoyed my gm's plans before.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 02:56 AM

Nooo. That's the reason tasers rock

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 02:56 AM

I'm a big fan of Capsule Rounds filled with something as simple as Neuro-Stun. While a lot of people talk about it 'cause chemical attacks are so effective in and of themselves, they often seem to forget that the round actually packs a double-punch, much like Stun Gloves. Not only does it deliver the chemical attack, but it does standard Gel Round damage (sans the Knockdown increase) as well.

That said, I'm often surprised at home often Hand Blades, Improved Hand Razors, and other high Power low Level melee weapons get overlooked. In my experience, a high Power has always been preferable to a high Damage Level. Sure, the latter requires more successes to completely resist, but the former insures fewer successes will be made.

Posted by: Zazen Jun 2 2004, 03:02 AM

Caltrops, dikoted if desired. Those invincible Body 12+ guys always take some damage.

Posted by: Siege Jun 2 2004, 03:03 AM

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 2 2004, 03:08 AM

Defiance T-250 Shotgun. It comes in both short and long barrel lengths. Use the short barrel and its concealabity of 6 for when you need something concealable (especially if you talk your GM into allowing the concealable holster for it). Use the long barrel for when you need power (10S can't be ignored) and use shot rounds/sea salt/whatever when you want it. Best of all, both use the same skill meaning one can relive the Firearms skill of 2nd Edition! Oddly it seems you can have a permit as well for the short barrel version despite being basically a sawed-off shotgun. The only problem is the 5 shot internal magazine, but if you've fired more than 5 times and time is still of the essence (i.e. combat isn't done or you have no cover), then you're in big trouble either way.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 2 2004, 03:10 AM

Laser weapons. *Sizzle*

Good lord, firing sea salt? Rich runners, eh?

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 2 2004, 03:15 AM

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 03:19 AM

Which is why Capsule Rounds are nice. They do their (-2 Power) Stun damage right there on the spot. The chemical boost is only an extra perk for pesky opponents who don't go down with one shot.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 2 2004, 03:21 AM

Yep, can't argue with that too much. Well, I can since I banned capsule rounds in my game, but as they're written in the book they're pretty nice!

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 03:26 AM

The Couger longblade with diakote. If memory serves thats Str+1(S) which is pretty nasty for a pigsticker.

Posted by: Luke Hardison Jun 2 2004, 03:27 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 04:01 AM

Ares Alpha is clearly a good pick but hardly underrated, except in price.

A Blackhawk with glasers seems liek a good headshot weapon

Good point on the Defiance T-250, I'll have to try that.

Posted by: Large Mike Jun 2 2004, 05:05 AM

For non-cybered characters, it's all about the manhunter. Now, I don't have my books with me, but integral laser sight and, iirc, edges out a pred 3 in either clip capacity, concealability, or damage. Can't remember which.

Posted by: northern lights Jun 2 2004, 05:29 AM

concealability 5 and 16 round clip for the manhunter. and laser sights do stack with the enhance aim spell. spend all your spell pool, buy an expendable spell focus and maybe karma the roll and you are looking at at least a base tn of 1. throw it on a sustaining focus if you're smart or quicken it if you can.

and the cougar is an excellent choice for stuffing in a boot.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 05:30 AM

There a heavy pistol in the CC thats 9m, laser sight, conceal of 7, only 550 and has an index of .5 that I think is a bit over the top.

Posted by: Zephania Jun 2 2004, 05:48 AM

Give me the roomsweeper anytime. Decent damage, shotgun rules, high concealability and a reasonable magazine.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 2 2004, 05:54 AM

Light pistols really, really suck, but there is one, the Steyr TMP, that is capable of full-auto fire. Wrap your mind around that. A dinky, lightweight pistol that you can load with EX Explosive rounds to fire a 10-round burst doing 18D damage. Get a custom grip, add a laser sight, and take a slight hit on power by mixing in some tracer rounds, and you actually have a halfway-decent chance of hitting something. Note that for full-auto weapons, the combination of vision magnification: 3, a laser sight, and tracer rounds (when you fire a 9 or 10 round burst) actually gives you a better bonus than a smartlink.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jun 2 2004, 06:03 AM

After rereading, I had the special explosive rules backwards between incendiary and explosive. I was also incorrectly recalling the additional 1's feature of incendiary. Go with explosive with that gun.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 2 2004, 06:29 AM

Where are you getting this? I'm looking at Explosive rounds on pg. 116 of the main book, and all it says is that they misfire if you roll all ones. Incendiary rounds (pg. 38 of CC) actually have more of a chance of misfiring - they misfire if more than half of your dice are ones.

Incendiary rounds are still very nice, though. Not only the 16D, but the same benefits as tracer rounds. And it's 20L (Power = twice the # of incendiary rounds), not 10L - and armor doesn't help, and you can't use Combat Pool to help soak it. And it's per round. Sure, the power drops by two each round, but that means you take 18L the second round, 16L the third - it can really whittle an opponent down.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 07:06 AM

The problem with the Steyr is that you have no recoil compensation, and the methods of attack that ignore recoil (Suppressive Fire) don't allow for staging. Likewise, most recoil compensation techniques take a battering on your Concealability, thus negating the entire point of using a Machine Pistol (of which the Steyr is) to begin with.

Just adding a Gas Vent IV alone drops its Conceal to 4. While not bad in its own right, you've already dropped your Concealability below what the HK MP-5 offers which comes standard with a Gas Vent and Laser Sight (technically meaning that it has a Conceal of 8 without those accessories). And you're doing a full Damage Level less damage to boot.

The Ingram Supermach is actually a pretty good weapon. Give it a Personalized Grip, an Underbarrel Weight, and use it with a Strength 6 character, and you can get a single BF burst out that does 12S damage with no recoil. It's Conceal is still better than the Steyr TMP, it has a better ammo capacity, and its Suppressive Fire capabilities are far greater than what the Steyr is capable of. The only benefit the Steyr has in comparrison is the ability to use a Concealable Holster and potential for more Recoil Compensation (at greatly reduced Conceal)... but that first benefit is only a single point higher than the Supermach's. And that's all hardly worth the fact that to match the 12S, you have to use a Complex Action while the Supermach is only using a Simple Action with no recoil.

All that said, I still like my Machine Pistols. They're just cool and are useful in most situations (6L vs. unarmed targets, 9M or higher against those in body armor or whatnot, and capable of Suppressive Fire). But for a thread like this, they pretty much suck compared to other options.

But overall, if we're just talking favorite weapons due to their stats, mine include the Colt Manhunter, the Remington Roomsweeper, and the Franchi SPAS-22... most of which have already been commented on so I won't repeat. As for the SPAS, it's is just a great weapon all around -- Smartlink-2 for free, BF capable, 10S base damage -- and it looks way cool to boot. Its only downfall is that it uses a magazine instead of a clip, so reloading is a pain. But if you need to reload in the middle of a fight while using one, you're in over your head to begin with.

For melee, gimme a pair of Stun Gloves (which mysteriously allow you to use Ambidexterity with Unarmed Combat as well as delivering a double-dose of damage with each strike) or paired Improved Hand Razors (+50% Strength in Power is nothing to sneeze at).

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 2 2004, 07:10 AM

Don't we have magazine speedloaders now?

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 07:19 AM

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 07:23 AM

Only uncompensated recoil is doubled. A personalized grip is more than enough to ignore all the recoil a Roomsweeper dishes out.

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 2 2004, 07:25 AM

I don't know if that's canon or not (I'm pretty sure it's not), but my GM allowed me to use standard BF rules with the Ruger Thunderbolt's BF mode (2 bursts per combat phase). The Savalette Guardian, another heavy pistol with BF, can only fire one burst per phase, and I'm pretty sure that this rule applies to other heavy pistols with burst fire as well, but my GM let me have fun with it nonetheless.
[Edit] I think I remember reading this in the CC (gun design section), but I don't have the book with me right now. Would be cool if someone could clarify that. [/Edit]

So now my (fully ambidextrous) character goes into battle wielding two Thunderbolts loaded with EX explosive ammo. Four times 14S damage per combat phase. Of course, this is definitely an example of "Distinctive Style", not to mention the fact that I'd be screwed if LoneStar catches me using those babies. I also know that it's not terribly efficient, but I always liked the "John Woo" flavour of this combo.

But I don't think the Thunderbolt is underrated; getting your hands on one is a royal pain in the ass, if you use it you can forget about subtlety, and getting caught with one just plain sucks. However, walking around a Z zone and displaying those guns openly sends a very strong message...

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 2 2004, 07:31 AM

The Thunderbolt's canon rate of fire allows two bursts per combat phase, just like almost all other burst fire capable weapons. The catch is that it fires nothing but three round bursts, giving it an effective capacity of 4 (nasty) shots, the second of which is a bitch to get off. The Guardian (and I think 5-7C) are exceptions to the rule.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 07:31 AM

So you get two full Initiative Phases before you have to reload. That's not very John Wooish, especially since that means you're reloading after less than three seconds of firing each and everytime you start going John Wooish (unless you have a pathetic Initiative score, of course).

Thunderbolts suck by the very definition of the word "suck."

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 2 2004, 07:33 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 07:37 AM

Heh, the Thuderbolt is not underated. Most people would say they are over used, but the combo of the BF and advanced BF rules the TB used make it unmatched in the heavy pistol group. However any GM whos players sport TBs in public should make them a bullseye for Lone Stars and BBGs.

The Puzzler and its big brother are way underrated. The fact you can get on a plane (or anywhere else) with one plus for Hi-C rounds is insane. But I guess you pay for that with concealablity and time putting it together.

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 2 2004, 07:46 AM

Rodent: Yeah, I've had this problem a lot; you're absolutely right, the Thunderbolt's no gun for extended firefights. But my character's opinion is "Either take 'em out fast, or don't take 'em out at all."

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 08:42 AM

The Walther PB-120 is a little underatted IMHO. I know its just a light pistol, but stick with me here. Its a conceal 8, and depending on how your GM rules, thats a total 15 concealment with a concealment holster and long coat. Loaded with glazers your talking about a 8S weapon on a headshot, which isn't too shabby if you can sneak it in with that 15.

Then again I'd chance a Morrissey Elite as I mentioned earlier. Thats a 11D on headshot, also great for a 13 concealment (once again depending on your GMs reading of the rules).

Also I went back and read the Defiance T-250 Shotgun. the sawed of versin has nothing on a Roomsweeper. Not sure what the point is.

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 2 2004, 10:08 AM

I'd prefer a dikoted survival knife over the fineblades (house rules don't allow dikoted fineblades, seems to be a common house rule). -2 conceal and +3 power for the short, or +1 conceal and +2 power for the long.

Posted by: shadd4d Jun 2 2004, 10:35 AM

The ELD-AR assualt rifle with capsuled rounds loading dmso and gammo scopalamine. Burst fire is a death sentence. Can you survive the stun damage and then 3 doses of gammo-scopalimine. Heck, you don't need gamma-scopalimine, just load neuro-stun and dmso.

Don

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 2 2004, 01:15 PM

Splash grenades.
I find these to be incredibly versitile and just plain fun.
Freeze Foam
Need to keep a door closed? wump and it's shut with a barrier 12 mess.
Need to slow down some guards getting out of the elevator, wump, and they probably aren't moving to well.
Slip Spray
Need to slow folks down?
Need to stop a pesky biker on your tail?
Just want some fun at the skate boarding park?
Amonia
Need to darn near fubar a crime scene?

The splash grenade is just so much darned fun

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 2 2004, 01:20 PM

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 01:22 PM

ELD-AR is in Cannon Companion, I think.

Posted by: shadd4d Jun 2 2004, 01:57 PM

It was first introduced in Corp Security (which also gave us the wonder chemical gamma-scopalimine). It's only SA/BF. Lovely weapon though, under the right circumstances.

Don

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 02:04 PM

By the way, does it fire anything besides capsule rounds? Or is it as specialized a weapon as I think it is?

...Ooooh...Mount an Antioch with Splash Grenades on the Underbarrel hardpoint on an Eldar...There we go...

Posted by: shadd4d Jun 2 2004, 02:25 PM

The original use is basically a paint gun with capsule rounds. The thing is filling those capsules with whatever you want. Heck, who gets arrested for a paint gun. You can still claim it's legal.

I think you might still be able to mount a gernade launcher.

As for the 3rd ed source, I can't remember if it's in M&M (due to chemicals) or CC. I think it's in CC in German and M&M in English, but don't quote me.

Don

Posted by: Thistledown Jun 2 2004, 02:30 PM

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 2 2004, 02:32 PM

The ELD-AR is on P. 115 of M&M.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 2 2004, 02:35 PM

That defeats the non-letahl appeal the weapon has for me. To me, a Shadowrunner is not always just a killer for hire, many can and do so without regard. I've gotten tot he point I like the 'challenge' of non-lethal combat. Last villian I used in a game was a pacifist who was in danger of losing his job, was kinda fun going through the mental anguish of "must not kill party becasue they didn't do anything wrong"

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 02:36 PM

DP grenade with IR smoke and splash (slip spray or splat glue) as an escape coverer?

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 2 2004, 02:38 PM

Not bad, kinda like slip spray and flash or super flash as well. go ahead, try and throw it back.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 02:40 PM

Flash does a better job if you're trying to stun them for an assault. IR smoke is better if you're just running away

Posted by: tisoz Jun 2 2004, 03:59 PM

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 04:22 PM

[random]

Dual-purpose dual-splash grenade loaded with splat glue AND slip spray.

Would that defeat both purposes?

[/random]

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 2 2004, 04:24 PM

Probably. I don't know that smoke and splat glue would work too terribly well, either, since the particulates in the smoke might coat the glue making it less effective.

Posted by: Modesitt Jun 2 2004, 04:58 PM

The Colt Manhunter is overrated. The laser sight takes up the barrel mount. No barrel mount available = No silencers. Instead, you should look at the Morrissey Elite & Alta. Both of them feature an underbarrel laser sight(Remember, normally pistols have no underbarrel mount), the elite is cheaper, and their conceal is higher.

The Large netgun is underrated. It's great for quickly immobilizing heavy targets. Their armor and body doesn't help them at all, all they can do is try to dodge at higher TNs and hope you don't get half their quickness in successes. Bonus points if you can convince your GM that a built in smartlink doesn't count as a mounted accessory.

Too bad it uses Shotguns though. Still underrated IMO.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 05:10 PM

Wait...The Manhunter can't mount a silencer and pistols normally can't mount underbarrel accessories?!...Um, wow. What the hell.

Just...What the hell.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 2 2004, 05:17 PM

I guess the lack of underbarrel accessories is there because the game designers wanted to stop people from adding bipods, vertical front grips (I always forget the correct name of these) and UB GLs to pistols. I guess they couldn't be bothered to add "Cannot be added to pistols" into the descriptions of those modifications.

Just ignore all of it if you know better. If you don't know anything about modifying weapons, you might as well go with the rules.

Posted by: Siege Jun 2 2004, 05:31 PM

I'll go with Aus on this one.

Although I thought an integral laser system didn't negate the barrel option. And yes Virginia, you can go out and buy an underbarrel laser sight and/or high power tac light today -- but the technology gets lost in 56 years.

-Siege

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 2 2004, 05:41 PM

And then there's http://hkpro.com/image/action3gignmp5.jpg. Unlike the rifles with built-in TV sets, this one's not an imagemanip either.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 05:43 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 2 2004, 05:52 PM

I was going to say something about giving frenchmen german weapons, but decided against it, just because http://hkpro.com/action6snowsd.jpg looks really cool. (13E Regiment de Dragons Parachutistes training in Sweden)

Posted by: Shadow Jun 2 2004, 05:58 PM

Most underrated weapon in the Shadowrun game:

Your Brain.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 2 2004, 05:59 PM

I've seen some of the brains of players out there. Trust me, they're not underrated.

Posted by: Siege Jun 2 2004, 06:13 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 2 2004, 06:18 PM

As we all know, the absolute minimum modifications you need for any shoulder arm are:
Reflex sight, thermal imaging scope, backup iron sights, visible laser, IR laser, visible light, IR light, sound suppressor, underbarrel GL, bipod, vertical foregrip. Plus low-light & thermographic goggles.

That's IRL. In SR, you've got to add at least the smartlink, rangefinder, guncam, ultrasound sight & goggles and replace the reflex sight with a magnifying scope (because reflex sights do not exist in SR).

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 2 2004, 06:23 PM

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 2 2004, 09:29 PM

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jun 2 2004, 09:51 PM

Might not be a weapon but I'd say Riot Shields are extremely overlooked. They're bulky and hard to conceal, true, but it's also legal so it's conceal isn't as critical as with weapons. And adding several additional points of armor of both types is a huge help. Finally if you're not a melee expert, it adds 2 to each person's tn in melee combat (we houseruled that when going full-defense the defender has no penalty) and if it does put your armor rating above quickness enough for a penalty, dropping it's a free action after you use it's armor to help you soak, meaning no penalty when you counter-attack if he's got more initiative than you.

I've seen some interesting things done with a blowgun too. Drug delivery, silent as the grave, conceal 7, and it only costs 10 Nuyen (It's needles are really cheap too). If it didn't need it's own cursed skill I'd think it was great, but as is only a few character types can spare the skill to use one like that.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 2 2004, 10:01 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 2 2004, 10:01 PM

Shields may be legal, but you're going to get questions carrying a riot shield around town.

~J

Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 2 2004, 10:40 PM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 10:59 PM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 2 2004, 11:03 PM

BTW I mentioned super flash nades earlier but I also used them a couple of sessions ago to take out a low hovering Lone Star chopper that was pesting us. I thrown two of these bad boys on top of the building we were trapped in and blam the pilot and the sniper (who was looking at the blast thru a 3x scope) were blind and stunned. The chopper crashed and blew without a box done to it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 01:53 AM

And this is why you leave the autopilot on in combat if you won't need to do much maneuvering.

~J

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 3 2004, 02:17 AM

It's also why SOP is for your choppers to do passes instead of hover. Hovering when there are hostiles on the ground = death. (as you illustrate)

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 02:40 AM

And also if the man in the chopper was a sniper, why the hell didn't he just stay outside the range of all the weapons you were likely to carry while staying well inside the range of his rifle, say 800 meters.

You don't use a sniper to perform close range combat if theres not a reason for it.

Posted by: Luke Hardison Jun 3 2004, 03:01 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 03:25 AM

Bitbasher, he (my GM) was going off the old Lone Star book for what Lone Star sends for thier threat response. And while sniping from long distance is great I think the rigger wanted to get close and personal with this vehicle mounted vindi as we were in a pretty solid building. and there was heavy smoke in the area.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 03:38 AM

Woahwoahwoah; he was a Rigger? There's no way you should have been able to take him down like that… what kind of Sensors was he packing?

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 03:52 AM

IIRC the range on the minigun is about as long as the sniper rifle

I just think it was a goofy way to run it, especially if he was a rigger, where he's using sensors nad the smoke wouldn't really do jack to him. This is just a difference in GM style, I would never do that because my enemies with tactical training, always act like they have tactical training.

Also I dont think a superflash would do much to vehicle sensors, but I could be wrong about that.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 3 2004, 03:53 AM

decent sensors have flare compensation IIRC

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 04:33 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 04:39 AM

Plus that's all just passive sensors. Active sensors wouldn't even lose the -3 TN for LOS.

~J

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 05:28 AM

This was IR smoke, not normal smoke. From what I get sensors are just as useless in IR as normal vision.

Also nothing he could find in the rigger books or main book says sensors protect from flash. In fact I'd think you'd be more vunerable because its like having 360 degree vision without eyelids. but thats just IMHO, not rules. He did give him flare comp but flare comp isn't much vs superflash, let alone two superflash at the same time. The pilot wasn't on auto as he was very slowly circling the building to give the sniper a shot of a doorway or window. At the time of the flash in fact he was banking slightly left going counterclockwise aren't the permeter. Not saying the plan was foolproof but the GM wasn't expecting it . Also think about the nade blast reflecting off the flat rooftop upward almost directly into thier face. Also it was the dead of night and in downtown Dallas, around lots of glass skyscrapers. Not much one can do versus that.

However the got a pilot test and a crash test. Both failed, even with combat pool and using karma pool. The Gm was reaching but the modifiers with the flash made it nasty. He didn't even count the IR smoke modifers.

Posted by: Modesitt Jun 3 2004, 05:33 AM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 3 2004, 05:36 AM

I thought most vehicle sensors included ultrasound, which shouldn't be affected.

JaronK

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 05:43 AM

I've never read anything about ultrasound being standard. Even if it was standard flashbangs are light + noise. Anyon ehit by one has ringing ears for awhile.

I imagine a pair of superflashes are pretty loud. I'm not even sure a sensitve ultrasound mic could survive that. Maybe but I doubt you'd get much data after a rumble liek that plus the boucing sound waves off the buildings.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 05:44 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 05:56 AM

Bit I can see your logic but the smoke was on one side of the building and the chopper on the other side. The flash was in-between the two. The smoke covered me throwing it up top at the time of throwing it, but the chopper had move around away from it by the time it went off. The -3 might have helped a little but its still blind fire (+. Only slightly more effective then using smartgun 2.

Also the sensors might give negatives to the test but they don't make you immune. Cameras are just as sensitive as eyes when it comes to light. You can see this a little with the nightvision cameras in iraq filming tanks go off. Theres an slight burned image after the bright tank muzzle flash goes off, or bombs in the distance explode.

Point wasn't to destroy the chopper, it was to take it out with class. If I wanted it destory it I had a Ares Alpha loaded with AR that could have did that.

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 3 2004, 05:58 AM

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 06:10 AM

Say the grenades did affect him. Base handling on a LS Yellowjacket is 4. He could easily make that TN, even with modifiers from the flashes. He'd also be using Karma, 'cause it's be a really good time to do so.

Then he'd light you up like a Christmas tree, because smoke can't stop searching fire.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 06:13 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 06:18 AM

At the very least, ultrasound proximity detectors are part of Rating 0 sensors. There's no way the pilot should have not known where the building was. Furthermore, a rigger isn't in their body at all; there should be no noise-based stun effect, the rigger shouldn't even notice.

There shouldn't be blindfire modifiers at all; roll Sensor rating against a TN equal to 3 (6 Signature for a non-troll metahuman minus three for LOS) and you've got sensor-enhanced gunnery right there. Manual and passive sensor tests might be shot, but not for long.

~J

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 06:19 AM

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 3 2004, 06:24 AM

I don't have to quote because the rigger's plugged into the vehicle anyway; i.e he IS the vehicle, the sensor array his eyes and ears. Hell, he wouldn't feel worse for wear even if you threw the FB right into the cockpit.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 06:29 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 06:31 AM

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 06:32 AM

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 3 2004, 06:38 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 06:41 AM

If you say so chief. You play your game however you want, we'll stick to the rules not speculation. Whatever your GM rules I'm happy for ya.

You might want to read the actual description of superflash nades tho considering flare comp bearly helps. These bad boys are seriously not to nice to be hit with.

Anywhom back to the topic. Are there any good choices in the heavy weapons area? Never played many gunnery types.

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 06:46 AM

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 3 2004, 06:48 AM

WHAT? Cybereyes don't cut off full bodily perception?!?!?!?!?! I gotta talk to my GM....

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 3 2004, 06:50 AM

I'd stick to rules, only I'm up against someone who seems to know the BBB less than even I do.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 07:05 AM

Lol, if you guys say so. Got to love discussion Trolls. I wouldn't want you rigger type to feel inadequite. I'd sure I'd be dead even tho I won initittve and surpise, roll 21 (ok some is combat pool) only dice for that AR, partial cover during firing, and yellowjacket has a whole what 2 body and 3 armor. Yeah, ok. If someones firing full auto AP rounds at you the last place you want to be is in a yellowjacket 50 meters up. Seriously guys, the pilot would have been dead long before he even thought about firing let alone before that blender spun up. Only reason I did the flash was to freak the GM out and because he had no shot until we commited.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 07:06 AM

Not to mention that the gun should've been spun up as soon as they got close…

~J

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 07:18 AM

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 3 2004, 07:21 AM

IIRC miniguns can spin without firing tex

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 3 2004, 07:45 AM

You can, and in real life, you don't even need to spend a ridiculous amount of time spinning up, despite what canon says. But in canon, you can't spin up without shooting.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 07:51 AM

Are you certain on that? I'm pretty sure I remember a separate time limit on spinning than that enforced by ammo levels (batteries or somesuch)…

~J

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 3 2004, 08:04 AM

I could be wrong. I'm remembering this more from another thread than from the CC. Give me a moment to check.

[edit]

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 08:33 AM

Wow 1 combat turn, I thought it was just 1 combat phase. I must agree I think the Vindi rules are nuts but I think its to offset the awesome power of a Vindi leadshower. I don't think it would matter much, those yellowjackets aren't meant to take a beating.

We could beat this subject to death but I stil don't see anything saying vision thru sensors protects completely from flash. It could give flare comp but that gives only a -2 , not much if your close enough to take the stun. Ultrasound might help but I'm honestly unclear on the rules for how it replaces normal vision.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 08:37 AM

Yep, but does allow for spinning without firing, unless I'm misreading (which I might be. It is, after all, four in the morning and I haven't slept for the past two nights).

~J

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 09:19 AM

Kagetenshi any GM that allows for that kind of dry spin (for lack of a better term) I would hope would give you the +2 for changing targets as your basically "firing" at spot other the exactly where the target is.
And if I'm reading this right your also basically using all your remaining complex actions that turn (assuming you have more then 1) to do nothing but prepare for the next combat turn. I'd also hope a wise GM would make you commit at least 1 complex action of the next combat phase to firing just to keep riggers from constantly spinning their Vindis 24/7, which I must say sounds pretty lame.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 09:27 AM

Eh? I see no reason why I would give any negative modifiers unless it was left on for hours at a time, in which case I would jack up maintenance costs. And changing targets? That's absurd. The gun is dry-spinning, not being aimed at different targets in quick succession. It's not like the rigger is actually spending the time to aim and fire. Do you make complex actions to keep your car engine running?

~J

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 3 2004, 09:31 AM

show me somewhere in the rules that says it doesnt take a turn to keep the engine running

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 10:00 AM

Kagetenshi think about it. Your aiming at either a rough location (ie blindfire) or nothing at all and firing. Yes Firing. As in pulling the trigger and commiting a complex action. just like any other full auto weapon, its just taking 3 seconds to warm up. This wouldn't matter if you could see the target but at this point you can't because by your logic your starting the spinup just before you get within range so you have no wasted turns.
Yes it takes another turn before the cartridges are actually firing but by that time your assuming your going to see the target and fire at him. At that point you've now switched your target from a general location or nothing at all to a person you can see. Thats changing targets because your now taking the effort to reaim/reposition a firing weapon. Keep in mind the bullets don't have to be flying yet for the weapon to be considered firing.
If your doing searching fire thats different but from what your first message says it sounds like your saying "hey by doing X I'll be ready by the time I get there to fire on the characters". I think those types of negatives are completely fair considering its a turn you wouldn't even get to fire normally if you flew up and then started firing.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 3 2004, 10:31 AM

Cutter... show me where in the rules it says you have to fire if you spin up. As far as I read it, it said you had to spin up before firing... but it didn't say you had to fire if you got it spinning. The reason most people wouldn't do that is it makes your position extreamly obvious, due to the noise. I'd also put in a movement penalty since it would be a bit unweildy. Still... by your logic, you have to switch targets every time you aim any weapon, and that's silly. I mean, haven't you switched from the general location your pistol was aiming at to the specific person?

JaronK

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 3 2004, 12:53 PM

IIRC the M61 Vulcan used in all american fighters starts firing from a 'spun down' start, iirc the first round goes when you pull the trigger and it's spun up to its full 6000rpm in around .25 to .5 secounds.

And yes, you can spin miniguns without firing them you just turn the mortor on, but dont pull the trigger. You don't leave the gun spinning all the time b/c it would run up your maintenance costs. Think of it a bit like idiling your car... Someone not expecting anything would have to start their car, but you can bet the getaway driver has the engine running... Any LS choppoer responding to a 'shots fired' incident will have spun up the gun already.

Carrying the gun around yourself while it is spinning might be a bit difficult, (say -1 combat pool, unless using a gyromount, which should just eat the spin up...)

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 3 2004, 01:01 PM

Batteries are irrelevant on vehicles, as well.

Anyway, what type of helo was it? Most have really bad sensor arrays, which would preclude flare comp (which only comes standard on rating 5+ sensor systems). That specific component could always be added in as an upgrade (Rigger 3, p30) and I'd see it as being not a bad idea.

I'd make a rigger whose vehicle is hit with a superflash suffer the effects like anyone else, but halve the vision modifiers because visual modifiers are generally half as effective on vehicles (Ruthenium, for instance) because of the wide variety of sensors they possess.

I also don't see how the rigger managed to crash from a 12M stun hit... Maybe it was his first day on the job?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 3 2004, 02:06 PM

The minigun thing, revving it up and all, has been beaten to death http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=3868.

Like JaronK said, it would be utterly ridiculous to require a "changing target" TN modifier if you pick a target while the barrels are rotating. You are not aiming while "idling" the minigun any more than you would be without rotating barrels.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 3 2004, 03:44 PM

Most underrated? Hold-out pistols.

This may be because I don't always force the system on the players... but quite frankly, if you stick a .22 in someone's ear and pull the trigger, drek is going to happen.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 04:04 PM

Just to clear up some misconceptions:

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 04:04 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 04:18 PM

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 3 2004, 04:21 PM

I dunno I always fire my pop-up turrets a few times before I bother to pop them up, it keeps the team on its toes.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 04:23 PM

Er, I meant start. Have I mentioned the lack of sleep the past three nights?

Edit: furthermore, I also meant neither of which are disadvantages on a vehicle. I'm really not doing so well this morning.

~J

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 3 2004, 04:59 PM

Indeed, you got ridiculously lucky. Remember this isn't GTA or some movie, where a helicopter should get anywhere near you, especially not in range of a superflash grenade or a pathetic assault rifle. Any attack copter pilot with an ounce of sense would be several hundred feet up in the air--specifically, about 500 feet or so feet at least--which is well out of even Extreme range for your assault rifle, let alone anywhere near where you could have lobbed a "nade". This of course would have only put him within Long range on his Vindicator. Even at that range Sensors shouldn't have been a problem, with the 100X magnification that comes standard with Sensors 2 (on a helo that should be upgraded anyway), and all the stuff that comes standard with Rating 2 sensors (list on p. 135).

So, base TN of 5-6 for sensor-enhanced gunnery (what's your Sig, anyway? Keep in mind lots of cyberware lowers this number), +2 for Urban area, plus 0 for "Interrupted LOS" (Blind-fire for Sensor-enhanced gunnery; Direct LOS is -3), -3 for a Smartlink w/ Rangefinder, which is no doubt standard issue for anyone who's already shelled out the cash for a VCR and an attack helo with a frickin' MMG attached to it. So, end TN is about 4-5, and the rigger'll be throwing his considerable Gunnery skill at this TN plus most of his Combat Pool. Yeah, you shoulda been pretty screwed.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 3 2004, 05:03 PM

As a side note, where does it say that Trolls have a base Sig of 5? I can't find the rules for metahuman signature anywhere, except that little bit on p. 133 where it says that the Sig for a human-sized biologival form is 6.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 3 2004, 05:20 PM

Toward the back of Cannon Companion where it's talking about signatures for things not human sized.

[edit] page 104 [/edit]

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 3 2004, 05:32 PM

Ee-yikes! A troll sammie has a Sig of 4!? Sucks to be him, I guess.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 3 2004, 05:42 PM

Just a quick nitpick: 500 feet in the air != 500 meters of range. You probably could still hit a helicopter and it probably would be within range, though certainly not close. Whether you could do anything to it is another matter entirely.

And, yes, I agree, you can spin without firing. Not that you should need to, of course, but if you stick to canon, there should be none of this +2 for switching targets nonsense.

Posted by: Siege Jun 3 2004, 05:44 PM

Another nit-pick -- 500 feet does not equal 500 meters.

-Siege

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 3 2004, 05:55 PM

Your range gap is only between 551 and 800 meters for the minigun. All of which is at extreem range (but doable). The likely safe distance for most calls is 100 meters or so (outside of shotgun range). I don't know that the Star regualrly anticipates ARs at the site of most disturbances.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 3 2004, 06:08 PM

Seeing as how it makes no difference for spotting/surveillance purposes whether the helicopter is hovering at 5 kilometers or 50 meters, as far as the Sensors have enough range (which they usually have on any decent helo) and there's no immediate need of transportation with the helicopter, all police choppers might as well start out very pessimistic and fly in 200 meter circles 1km above the target area. That way they are out of range of most weapons they could reasonably expect to encounter -- Sporting Rifles are certainly not rare and can readily drop an unarmored helo.

They should fly at their Speed rating, too. Makes them more difficult targets, allows them to get away/close in fast, and they can always decelerate quick if that allows them to engage targets better.

If they might face HMGs, Assault Cannons or missiles, they shouldn't have helicopters flying anywhere in LoS.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 06:14 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 3 2004, 06:17 PM

The only effective way to protect a chopper against those is the good ole VCR-3/superhuman rigger/FBW3/SA3 Combo for a Rigging Pool the size of Alaska. 30 points of armor, the minimum to provide meaningful defense against the Great Dragon ATGM, is difficult -- although not completely impossible -- to fit on aircraft.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 06:31 PM

Fortunately, a good Rigger should have no problems generating four successes on a Hiding test.

~J

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 3 2004, 06:44 PM

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 3 2004, 06:45 PM

it's a LMG for purposes of range, IIRC

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 3 2004, 06:46 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 3 2004, 06:56 PM

I'm guessing it's there only to make it clear that the Vindicator doesn't fire LMG ammunition. Why, though? I mean, I can barely understand why LMGs don't fire AR ammunition (just barely), but I cannot figure out why a LMG-ranged, LMG-damage minigun doesn't fire LMG ammo.

Doubly silly because the MMG and HMG versions are exactly that: Vengeance and Vanquisher use MMG & HMG ranges and ammunition, respectively.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 3 2004, 07:33 PM

Eh.

Also, another underestimated weapon, your riggers front bumper

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 07:38 PM

With a good van, you can expect to knock the damage Power down to 2 on anything less than 520 KPT collisions.

~J

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 3 2004, 07:39 PM

I was meaning Van+acceleration+pedestrian=*squish*

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 10:00 PM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 11:56 PM

I think its funny how people seem to think a Vindi with 7 points of recoil, +2 for urban, firing from a moving vehicle, blindly firing thru brink walls at extreme range seems dangerous. The TN to hit use would be pretty sad and he knew it. This isn't the movies where all the bad guys instantly fall down. Sensors only help so much just as smartgun isn't a replacement for LOS. But all this is pointless when you have 3 runners poaring plenty of AV firepower long before that gun goes off, even if he came in spinning the round before. Even without wining init fact is its alot safer fighting from a bunker then a 2 body fuel can be 5 stories up.
Maybe the flashbangs wouldn't have worked, its iffy at best. I still say sensors are immunity, just like flare comp isn't immunity. Sometimes you just got to try stuff for laughs. But if I considered the chopper a serious threat he never would have got that close. We could have dropped half a dozen yellowjackets that turn.

Theres a time and a place for everything and this wasn't the time for a chopper. He should have sent a riot-tank with some gas launchers.

Never the less this subject has gone on waaaay too long. Lets keep on topic, other then this side discussion I think theres been some really great points.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 12:02 AM

It's also obvious that your game does not stress the fear of Lone Star that mine does. People don't shoot at Lone Star because of the consequences.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 4 2004, 12:12 AM

Well, there are different types of games. In some games, engaging the cops is ok, part of the cinematic action. They are faceless, incompetent stormtroopers meant to die. In other, IMO more closely approaching realistic response, engaging the cops stirs up a hornets nest NO team can compete with, and each cop killed leaves a wife and 2 goblins starving on the streets. Whatever floats yer boat.

Posted by: tisoz Jun 4 2004, 12:15 AM

So weapon range modifiers don't matter to sensor enhanced gunnery?

[edit someone mentioned TN mods. [/edit]

Does Sensor enhanced gunnery get smartlink and rangefinder mods? Doesn't seem like it would.

Posted by: tisoz Jun 4 2004, 12:28 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 02:29 AM

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 02:41 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 02:59 AM

Which means nothing. Pepsi and Disney own half the US today but you don't see them sending out hit squads. If they have some much power why don't they overthrow UCAS ?

Also Lone Star is a private security company, not the police. Police implies they have the full backing of the goverment and full reign of the law or at least the ability to pass issues outside thier control to other government agencies. LS is just a glorified rent-a-cop service, and by no means the best.

Even if they weren't most LS are about like todays cops: fat guys in thier early 40's who don't know dick about using thier service weapon. Now some of the chromed LS can hang in numbers but those are more of the HTR teams. Most runners are long gone by the time they roll up.

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 03:07 AM

That's true if Lone Star doesn't have any competition. But they do, when it comes to securing contracts from the govt. for 'areas to protect'. Unless you're telling me Knight Errant or rival security forces don't exist, and they have Microsoft equivalent monopoly, in which case I'll start believing you. Right now I'd more readily believe your GM's giving you an easy time. Houseruling indeed.

Back on topic. What about energy weapons, like lasers? Sure, they're expensive, but you'd think the experienced runners might pack one O' those...

Posted by: Tal Jun 4 2004, 03:21 AM

The only real bonus that I've ever found is the ability to select the starting damage level. Lugging those damned power packs is not fun.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 03:26 AM

Cutter, your ignorant comment on "the way real life cops are" is a direct flame on myself and the people I work with. I'll ask you to refrain from blatant insults.

And read the Lone Star Sourcebook. You are bathing in a sea of ignorance on the topic of Lone Star.

Posted by: Entropy Kid Jun 4 2004, 03:29 AM

I've never read (or even seen) the LS sb so some of this could be incorrect.

I've never viewed LS as cops either. I'm sure some LS employees see themselves as real police officers, but I doubt all of them do. LS employees are like any megacorp employee or guard, and I don't see a reason for an "OMG cop killing is baaad!!" sentiment with them. If corpers get killed in your game, LS is no different (conceptually).

Specific precincts, and I'd expect areas of cities (Downtown, Tacoma, etc.) would have the sort of fraternity that real police do, but I doubt it'll resemble the kind police have today. If a runner is a known "cop" killer, meaning deliberately goes after LS employees or killed a bunch over time, then it'd make sense for to go after that runner, but that's more self-preservation and sending a message to the shadow-community.

As for real life police, my experiences with them have been good. They were always professional and had a reason for talking to me. They have a lot of annoying procedures (the flashlight!), but I understand that it's for their own protection.

Then again, some of my friends and acquaintances have had bad experiences with police. It's a profession that attracts a certain personality type. I'm sure a lot of cops joined on for the uniform, badge, gun, and because they're turned on by authority they're not responsible enough to handle; but a negative portrayal of all police is inaccurate and pretty stupid.

I expect a lot of LS employees are like that though. Since they're not a government police force, a lot of them would be out-of-towners and lack the emotional connection to the place they're supposed to be protecting: it won't be "home" to them, so they'll care less. Also, since a lot of the employees won't be originally community members, it'd be hard to keep out the unprofessional, unfriendly, authority junkies since you can't know a person until you meet them. If LS had a battery of regular psych exams the number of bad employees would be cut down, but I don't see a reason for HQ to do this or to care.

In the SR world there's the additional stress of every stop in Seattle (or wherever) becoming a combat situation. Without the staff and bone necklace it's hard to say to say who "looks like a mage" and without a LMG in hand, any adult could be a shadowrunner (can't see dikoted spurs with venom sacs anyway). So even "good guys" that join LS out of some sense of public duty could (and I expect do) turn into stressed out, trigger happy bastards.

What was my point?..... oh yeah. Killing LS employees is just as bad (or not bad) as killing any other corp employee. The employee's friends will want the runner's blood, but all of Seattle isn't coming down on shadowrunners for one tagged-and-bagged LS employee. If a runner isn't too stupid, and doesn't make a hobby out of killing them, it shouldn't be some huge problem.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 03:31 AM

Seriously Cutter... you should know better than to make a rediculus flame like that.

JaronK

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 03:43 AM

The Corporate Download book is pretty specific about why the corps leave the governments in place, theres no profit in overthrowing them. On the other hand I have to admit that I love the idea of Disney hit squads. How scared would you be if Goofy kicked your door in and opened up with some full-auto fire?

Posted by: Glyph Jun 4 2004, 03:45 AM

Isn't that already on the cover of Cannon Companion?

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 03:51 AM

Whatever you say Bit. I think I hit a note of truth there your not ready for. I respect LEOs who put themselves in harms way but many are like most local government employees and you know it. The "insult" wasn't directed at you directly but to those that fit that group which you may or may not be in. If you took offense then perhaps you need to take a realistic look at our LEO stucture of today. In most cities there are more LEO enforcing traffic then following response calls or doing beat.
You may be one of those fine individuals that makes a difference, thats for you to decide. But coming into a post and spewing non-related self-rightous claims is not going to earn you any points for the public. And if you think LS is a good representation of ideal police then you must have a pretty boring day at work.

BTW making an insult and asking for them to cease in the same post is ignorant in and of itself. Drop it and move along please.

Posted by: Tal Jun 4 2004, 03:51 AM

Hehe, I just got an image in my head of Porky pig with an LMG. 'Th-th-th-that's all, motherfuckers!"

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 03:55 AM

Of course this leads us to the inevitable question...Which group of cartoon characters would make the most effective runner team?

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 03:57 AM

Can I get a freaking ignore option on this forum PLEASE? I will not reply and degenerate this into a flame war.

Posted by: Tal Jun 4 2004, 03:57 AM

Hmmm... Well, Bugs'd have to be the face of any team...

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 03:57 AM

The Biker Mice from Mars.

Posted by: Panzergeist Jun 4 2004, 04:02 AM

The fact that corps in real life don't have hit squads is irrelevant, since Shadowrun is a fictional game taking place sixty years in the future. Incidentaly, Disney is known for using cutthroat business tactics. There's a saying in businiess; "Don't mess with the mouse." It's not a reference to small companies in general. It's a reference to Disney. Also, corporations do have a bit more leeway to use armed guards and the like in some other countries. In fact, when the fundamentalists overthrew the Shah in Iran, Ross Perot had some employees who were stuck in the country and weren't being allowed to leave. Do you think he sued? Hell no, he hired mercenaries to rescue them. And it worked.

As for cops, real life police officers are pretty professional. They may not be especcially good with their guns, but that is simply because they hardly ever use them. Lone Star is a corporation, like any other, and does engage in underhanded business tactics. I imagine it doesn't do so quite as much though, since they aren't invloved in research or manufacturing. Mostly they would try to find intelligence on or sabotage attempts by a rival corp to win a city policing contract. However, most lone star cops probably do think of themselves in much the same way modern cops do, although the same can't be said of the executives. Since privatization has completely replaced local police departments, they do have the full backing of the law, and will generally be given the benefit of the doubt in civil liberties cases, unless someone sues. The sworn officers of Lone Star would probably be kept pretty seperate from the rest of the corporation, so security guards at their corporate offices wouldn't have gone through police academy, and police officers couldn't just apply for a transfer to corporate black ops. If the police in Shadowrun are more corrupt and ineffectual than police today, that is just a sign of the times. They are no worse than, say, the police in the great depression during the heyday of the Italian-American mafia.

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 04:03 AM

My vote has to go to the guys from the Robin Hood movie. Robin would be a great face/sniper, Little John is your heavy weapon guy, Friar Tuck covers magic. I dont know about decker/rigger, maybe those church mice? Plus they are already a proven paramilitary force.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 04:04 AM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 04:11 AM

Bah, don't let the trolls get you down Bit.

Hmm, I think Daffy Duck would be great for a Shadowrunner, as would the Dodo. Those two can do darn near anything... including infiltrating a compound by drawing a door on a wall and going through it. Elmer Fudd would be okay, since he seems to have a shotgun with unlimited ammo and an amazing rate of fire, but he can't seem to hit anything... maybe Bugs with Elmer's shotgun?

JaronK

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 04:12 AM

Seriously Bit sorry if I offended you. My point wasn't to say all police are worthless because thats completely false. Only that your view of LEOs is way bias. I was a EMT-P and I know there is an unpleasant side to the police population. But mostly its that police are a undertrained, underpaid force strecthed too thin due to politics and groups like MADD. Fact is if your a citizen and you get robbed, attacked, etc you will not get the help you need in time. Same for most businesses. I'm sorry but the police today are not some superforce of crackshots. Most first responders can't keep a 6" pattern at 20 yards, which can seriously endanger the public. Once agan sorry if that insults you but you came in here looking to flame.

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 04:15 AM

Dont forget Wile E. Coyote, that guy must have some serious contacts in Acme, not to mention some hefty B/R skills. He'd be like Q.

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 04:27 AM

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jun 4 2004, 04:32 AM

Hmm, cartoon runners:

Melee Specialist:
Bun-Bun, nobody beats the mini-lop with the Switchblade. No way in hell he's not an Adept with 5,000 initiations.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 04:32 AM

Cutter, please stop baiting me into talking about things non SR related. as I stated above I will not reply to them and it is derailing the thread.

Back on Topic:

Lone Star is, from the ground up, designed to work like a Law Enforcement Agency. They do not have managers and mid managers they have Chiefs, Captains, SGT's ect. As far as the Law Enforcement employess are concerned it is a totally paramilatary Law Enforcement Agency. The beuracaratic division, the actual cops never deal with. This Corp is designed to look and be the cops for most intents and purposes.(paraphrased, Lone Star Sourcebook Pg 10-12)

Lone Star provides 62% of non governmentally controlled Law Enforcement contacts in the UCAS to Knight Errant's 32%. (Lone Star Sourcebook Pg 14)

Lone Star Spends far more money on each contract than it takes in from the actual contract payment, making up the difference in equipment sales, corporate protection contracts, media, merchandizing and other means. (Lone Star Sourcebook Pg 24-25)

If anyone wants any details about anything Lone Star related, ask and I'll look it up.

Bottom line is that Lone Star provides a better law enforcement service to a city because they are a mega, but as far as the city is concerend Lone Star is the Cops, that's all they see. As far as the Lone Star Officers are concerend they are the Cops, that's all they see. The corp is designed that way from the start. Lone Star has divisions that handle Air Patrol, Ground, Highway, Paranatural, even Incarceration and Penal systems. The whole ball of wax.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 05:19 AM

Bit, not baiting. Just was clarifying. BTW no ones forcing you to read this thread.

Chicken wtf are you talking about? I'm talking US PDs, not international. You have no freakin clue on city/state police/HWP. I shoot at the range with these guys, and talk to them every day. Most only have to test twice a year or less and even then the stardards for accuracy are pretty low. Now don't get me wrong, there are some fine shots but there are also some guys that have no business firing a gun running around enforcing the law. I've even seen some carrying weapons that have been recalled such as the early S+W 9mm autos Even seen a video the other day of a female officer nearly shooting her partner while he was cuffing a BBG. The shot went off inches from the BBGs head and her partners leg.
Here is a few stories shared by others:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82742

Hell I wish we had Israel's police force, they are hella good shots and very well armed. And thanks for calling me kid, Its good to feel young again.

As far as LS is concerned they are big but they are nothing great. Most are setup to be a hassle for most runners. By no means are a pair of squad cars w/ 4 LS response cops any real challenge for even a starting group of runners. I've never went GTA as its been said but I think a group of moderately experienced runners come hold out for a good while if they had some cover. LS's big advantage is that they have numbers and gear galore. Literially you could justify wave after wave of LS HTR units before they'd have to call for something more serious. And magic to the mix and you coud really make things bad for LS. That is til the LS combat mages roll up.

Question: Stun batons. When beating someone with a stun baton do you add club damage to it as well? I assuming the stun damage is purely the for the shock.

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 4 2004, 05:29 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 05:38 AM

Wow Dave your funny. You got it all figured out. I guess I should hang up my thunderbolts and retire from running. After all no one can top Lone Star.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 05:42 AM

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 4 2004, 05:47 AM

I agree. If you are in that position, I suggest you each grab a revolver, run outside, and cut to end credits. Double points if there are only two of you and the Bolivian army is outside.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 06:04 AM

I gave him an equally sarcastic response to his. He knew this but I'll guess I'll explain. Some people just like flame after all.

You tier the respone with the threat as it increases. You should know this of all people here. This is why you don't carry m4s in squad cars.
First its squad cars on the scene because the issue hasn't been assessed, then backup of squads as needed. Then air support as needed and then tactical if the issues can not be be dissolved. LS is the same way, they'll call out the big guns when they need them as the best can't be everywhere at once.
As for LS as the LS force increases should the force against them. Police plan according to the assumed response from the attacker. For example if AV rounds were used thier going to send in hardened vehicles and magic. If you counter thier counter with the right response you succed. Of course most runners are in out and long gone before LS is even en route. If the runners were going to holdout for awhile they should plan for it, be ready for the shitstorm. A well armed team with some mages of thier own and some Great Dragon ATMs could keep LS busy for awhile. LS doesn't have anything the BBGs can't get themselves. But like you said your pretty well screwed cause sooner or later that fish, you know, the ones thats always bigger, will come. But hell it makes for a great ending or mega karma points if you make it to a sewer drain.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 4 2004, 06:12 AM

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 06:18 AM

First off:

Posted by: Panzergeist Jun 4 2004, 06:25 AM

The book states that the cops ARRIVE at those intervals. As for what they actually do when they arrive, they have the same intelligence and self-preservation instinct as anyone else.

I think the most underated weapon is the syringe full of drain-o in a fingertip compartment. Or my favorite booby trap, the "cyberdeck with a taser hard-wired into the jack."

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 4 2004, 06:27 AM

I'm sure that'll do a lot to the optical fiber.

Now, a high-powered laser connected to the jack...

~J

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 06:30 AM

For the past few posts (except that particular response to me) you were talking about MOST or ALL police without any reference to country whatsoever. I thought people 'your age', should know better than that.

Lone Star isn't your normal police force, or perhaps you're still stuck in 1980. year's 206X already, kid...or is that old man? Here's the deal:
1. Lone Star has equipment standard issue better than even Israel police. I'd say each of them is issued SWAT team level equipment. Unlike police forces of today, there's no government and/or citizen lobby control to curb their power. They're private, the government only pays them and then closes one eye.

2. Sure, you can say THIS is the very reason why they can afford to slack off....but you forget the 'private sector' influence. They have competition from their rival Knight Errant, who are just as well, if not better, equipped and trained. 32% may look small compared to the 68% pie, but it's no laughing matter...especially if this force to be reckoned with is the ONLY thing that's between you and monopoly. And, it's catching up, too, and directly challenging your supremacy. If you were LS, could you afford to slack? Nope. $$$ and prolonged contracts are at stake.

3. Given (1) and (2), what do you think the basic response will be? Certainly not the wishy washy, fat 40 year old sleepy cop in a basic patrol car. Uh uh. The minute some idiot fires off a saturday night special, the basic response is more likely to be HMMWVs, crew 3, with at least roof mounted brownings, with --no, not a shotgun -- a grenade launcher or LAW backup. The hell with "brutality"...no big bro's breathing down necks here. It practically has the freedom in normal conditions to act like an army during martial law.

4. LS is INTERNATIONAL, not just the "good ol'" US of A. It should not have to follow US standards.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 4 2004, 06:34 AM

Lone Star did slack off, once.

Check the timeline for the Week of Sirens.

~J

Posted by: Panzergeist Jun 4 2004, 06:38 AM

Just because they are private doesn't mean there are no rules. Not to mention that as a business, they can't just go over budget and pass the debt on to their children like governments can.

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 06:49 AM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 06:52 AM

Something to consider, though, is that the goal of Lone Star, like any corporation, is to make money. Thus, money is their primary concern, not justice or law. They don't want to waste unnecessary resources or endanger their property any more than they have to, and this can be used to advantage.

JaronK

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 06:55 AM

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 07:10 AM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 07:49 AM

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 07:57 AM

And neither are you going to get under mine. I'm just returning what you gave me. Without opening the package. Maybe you should follow your own advice, ne?

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 08:02 AM

I don't follow my advice, I live it sir.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 4 2004, 08:58 AM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 09:02 AM

Heh. Man, these things come back to haunt you, don't they? It's so hard to retract things when it's written down...

JaronK

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 4 2004, 09:38 AM

Going up against LS thinking "Sheesh, these guys are pushovers!" was one of my first mistakes as a Shadowrun player. I don't remember all the details, since it was a looong time ago, but what I do remember is this: We were happily making our getaway, dropping a few LS cops here and there, when all of a sudden they stopped coming after us.

Maybe a minute later our entire team was dead. Of course we complained to our GM, but she calmly explained to us that a) LS uses whatever means are necessary to ensure the safety of its officers and the people it is payed to protect, and b) sniper rifles really do have a huge range. This experience has made me a much more careful and creative planner.

Lesson here: LS serves the game better if it's not used as cannon fodder, but instead as a device to force players to rely less on the brute-force approach.




Underrated weapon: Female face with cultured, tailored pheromones, high quality (read: subtle) plastic surgery, and oral spurs. OUCH!

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 4 2004, 09:45 AM

Posted by: Drunk Lu Jun 4 2004, 09:50 AM

At the risk of sounding trite and snarky, I'd have to say that, in my experience, the most underrated weapon of any shadowrunner is intelligence, diligence, and proper planning.

But that could just be the troupes I've worked with.

If you have to pull a weapon, your run's probably already hosed.

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 4 2004, 09:51 AM

Actually, forget the spurs: Oral Whip - the darned thing has a reach of one! Now that would be some pretty intense kissing...

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 09:56 AM

Drunk, the question here is most underrated weapon, not most underused weapon.

JaronK

Posted by: Drunk Lu Jun 4 2004, 09:57 AM

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 4 2004, 10:16 AM

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 4 2004, 10:23 AM

Well, for the oral whip character I was actually thinking more along the lines of the "female love Troll hardbody", but the "hot lesbian elf assassin dominatrix chick" does seem more reasonable.

But come on, you surely didn't expect me to be serious about this... or did you?

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 4 2004, 12:34 PM

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 4 2004, 12:54 PM

One thing to keep in mind concerning LS standard cops. The get a few pieces of cyber, on the company dime, they get a leather jacket and a uniform, the Thunderbolt and a squadcar with a few extras tossed inside. If they want anything else, they gotta pay for it. LS treats the beat cops as canon fodder, however, backup is most definitely not, they are former fodder who take offense to anyone shooting at their brethren with extreme predjudice. You shoot a beat cop, expect the sniper to heart or head shot you in a few.
Keep this in mind, just because the chief tells the reporter that they will make every effort to take the perp alive doesn't mean that the shooters aren't given the order to take the shot if it presents itself.

Posted by: nezumi Jun 4 2004, 02:22 PM

Why do I always only get to the thread as its wrapping up???

One thing in response to cutter, I'm curious which geographic area of the US he's from, because police are a state/county/city thing, not a federal thing. Here in DeeCee, DeeCee cops are very different from Greenbelt, Riverdale Park, PG County, Montgomery county or State Troopers. Each group has their own budget, training and prevailing attitudes. I'm not on the wrong side of the law often enough to know who's fun to be with and who's not beyond rumors, but I do know that a few miles can make a huge difference in how police are funded and run.

LS would obviously not have that problem. LS in Seattle will be the same as LS in Hong Kong (except they follow different laws and may pack different heat, depending on market pressures).

I'm surprised no one mentioned Taz as the runner's street sam (maybe a physical adept? His magically improved skill would be 'consume'.)

I'm kinda glad they didn't include the cybersnake. My only irrational fear are vaginal snakes. rrr... *shiver*

Edit: Oh yeah, what's the deal with park police? I see them everywhere... Anyone know what their jurisdiction is? I hope they're not just there to arrest errant bears... "Hey Booboo, I got napped for stealing a picinic basket! This is my one free phone call."

Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 02:36 PM

Vaginal snakes? Been done and discussed.

And the results were amazingly...graphic.

-Siege

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 03:22 PM

Posted by: Smiley Jun 4 2004, 04:29 PM

He's talking about you telling people to do research before they start spouting about things they're completely ignorant of. This, however, is something you're more guilty of than anyone else i've yet encountered on Dumpshock. That's not just hyperbole, either.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 04:44 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 4 2004, 05:07 PM

Hunting Lone Star officers takes work and planning, but there's no more satisfying prey. They are cannon fodder if you plan well enough and don't let them respond.

~J

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 4 2004, 05:10 PM

A high rating jammer can do wonders for your hunt as well, though I still don't recommend it

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 4 2004, 05:35 PM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 08:26 PM

Point taken Bit.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 08:34 PM

Cutter, do we really need to break out the .45 through tissue paper quote again? You're guilty of holding up a thread for ages with rediculous statements, all the while spouting off about how you at least knew how to shut up when you were wrong. It's going to take a long time to live that one down... in the mean time, I suggest you avoid comments about the ignorance of others.

JaronK

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 4 2004, 08:37 PM

Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 4 2004, 08:37 PM

BLah blah blah, I am so right. You are all wrong. I knwo this because I know I know the most and you all know nothing, as evidenced by all the posts where you say wrong things. I dont need to quote them, its evidenced enough by the fact that I said it which means its right.

Oh, um to include something about underrated weapons... Id have to say flashpacks. And body compartments. Thats some fun waiting to happen right there.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 08:41 PM

I was playing around with a blind swordsman character who, with the right edges and flaws, ended up with a +1 TN when using his sword for visibility, regardless of lighting (since he's blind). Then, grabbing the idea from another thread, I can strap a flashpack to his chest, giving everyone who looks at him a +6. Wheee! That would sure slow them down.

JaronK

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 08:45 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 08:49 PM

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 4 2004, 08:50 PM

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 08:59 PM

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 4 2004, 09:01 PM

Yeah, ditto. Thanks a bunches. Next question:

Posted by: fish Jun 4 2004, 09:02 PM

whenever i'm outtof ammo, i use debri. dunno why, it doesn't always help, actually most of the time it doesn't, but there's just something funny about throwing tables and office chairs and a deck or a bottle or something at some red samurai...

then again, my troll is just plain dangerous to work with.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 4 2004, 09:03 PM

My trolls tend to throw the mothy little elves first, then the debris, never know what that solid oak desk might be worth

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 09:04 PM

My GM wouldn't let me take clubs specialized to (dwarves).

*sigh*

JaronK

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 4 2004, 09:05 PM

Hehe, that's because it's Clubs(Metahuman body)

Posted by: tisoz Jun 4 2004, 09:28 PM

Posted by: nezumi Jun 4 2004, 09:31 PM

Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 10:25 PM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 10:43 PM

I still think whoever went with clubs (municiple property) had the best idea. Though I think a parking meter is a poke arm.

JaronK

Posted by: Smiley Jun 4 2004, 10:48 PM

Well, since they can apparently take down rigged Lone Star Yellowjackets, I would have to say that the most underrated weapon would be a flashbang "nade."

Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 10:48 PM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 10:50 PM

Errr... yeah. Typo. Ouchie.

JaronK

Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 11:01 PM

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 11:31 PM

Never got the flashpaks. They seem to be help raise your enemies TNs but never really blind them (unless I missed something on the reading). I want something like like a Mark 141, something that leaves you completed blinded and deaf. Of course that might be a little too overpowering in a CQB.

What skill would pulling up a stop sign and impaling someone fall under?

Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 11:38 PM

Edged weapons (municipal property)



-Siege

Posted by: Luke Hardison Jun 4 2004, 11:39 PM

Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 11:41 PM

I have a hard time believing that anyone besides a troll would routinely rip up stop signs and use them as melee weapons.

Although, an augmented samurai could use the actually "STOP" part of the sign as a thrown weapon with some amusing effect.

-Siege

Posted by: Hasaku Jun 5 2004, 12:13 AM

Missile Mastery + Improved Throwing Weapons 6 + Karma Pool = some of the funniest deaths I've ever seen.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 12:49 AM

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 01:04 AM

Missile Mastery + Improved Skill: Thrown Weapons + grenades = insult to injury



-Siege

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 01:06 AM

Take a splash grenade filled with liquid salt.

Make the grenade spiky.

Give it to an Adept with Missile Mastery + Improved Thrown Weapons who happens to be wearing padded gloves so he doesn't spike his hand.


Now you really CAN rub salt in their wounds!

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 5 2004, 01:55 AM

Uhm, liquid salt? You mean liquid NaCl? What the fuck kind of balloon is that?

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 02:04 AM

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 5 2004, 03:06 AM

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 5 2004, 07:09 AM

I have a character that was for a while anticipating a mob of about 300 storming his compound because it was one of the only things in the ash dunes of puyallup with heat during the winter. The GM had forgotten that yes, actually I HAD taken the time to design and build a trebuchet. When a running group is too poor for machine guns, a trebuchet is a VERY handy thing to have lying around. And given how many laughs I got when I said I wanted to build it compared to how impressed everyone was when I whipped it out, I would definitely say it was the most underrated weapon I've ever seen in an SR game.

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 5 2004, 11:46 AM

All this talk about grenades got me thinking... Did anybody here besides me play Halo? Remember those plasma grenades? For those who didn't play Halo, a plasma grenade was just a regular grenade (plus flashy blue light and particle effects) that stuck to whomever you hit with it. For example, you'd see a bunch of aliens run towards you. Now you could take a plasma grenade, stick it to the alien that's closest to your position, and watch it run back to its buddies, screaming "Get it off of me, get it off..." BLAM!

As for Shadowrun, I'm thinking along the lines of grenade, covered with tiny gel packs containing some sort of super-glue. Only problem is, how do you prevent it from becoming sticky before you throw it?
Any input from people who've actually handled grenades would be highly appreciated.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 5 2004, 11:57 AM

Well, I'm not speaking from experience, but here's a few ideas. First, what about magnetic grenades? With all the cyberware around it might work... it would certainly work on a lot of vehicles, and wouldn't scatter much in metal environments. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard with a small electromagnet to have it engage when thrown.

You could also have a "sticky grenade" that was thrown via a small stick like attachment... basically, it would be very sticky on the whole grenade, but would have a small handle sticking off it that was for gripping. You simply throw from the handle and the grenade sticks. If that doesn't work, perhaps the handle could detach with the press of a button, allowing a flinging motion.

I seem to recall something about WWII soldiers using grenades placed in grease covered socks, which they'd fling, and would stick to tanks. It's been a while, but I think those actually existed and worked... but I could have the details wrong.

JaronK

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 12:07 PM

The sticky-sock bomb mentioned in "Saving Private Ryan."

I don't see why you couldn't make a grenade that would stick to a target -- you just have to figure out how to throw it without having it adhere to your fingers.

The closest I came was loading a splat ball with a core of C-4 and a radio detonator.

-Siege

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 5 2004, 02:06 PM

Ok, so if we suspend disbelief a little bit while at the same time stretching our imagination, we can assume that sticky grenades are feasible in Shadowrun. Ruleswise, I'd say that such a grenade...

• ignores rules for bouncing (if not set to detonate on impact)
• requires both a Str[8] (to remove it) and a Qui[8] (to avoid having it stick to your hand) test to get rid of, using a complex action
• provides a -1 TN modifier for the Thrown Weapons test
• is not available as a mini-grenade version
• can be outfitted with a high-pitched siren, to stress targets even more [no rules effect, just fluff]
• costs about 1.5 times as much as a standard grenade, and has a SI of maybe 2

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 5 2004, 04:34 PM

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 04:56 PM

Yeah, but it was still a fun game.

The fact they saved shotguns until the Cthulhu-esque part was irritating, but oh well.

And who, the frag, puts a scope on a pistol?

-Siege

Posted by: Seidaku Jun 5 2004, 04:57 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 5 2004, 05:00 PM

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 05:03 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 5 2004, 05:04 PM

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 05:45 PM

Posted by: Smiley Jun 5 2004, 09:54 PM

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 09:59 PM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 5 2004, 10:01 PM

I could see it for mini grenades. Perhaps a shell that breaks apart a few meters past the barrel, at the same time the grenade itself becomes live? Under that shell is the sticky minigrenade.

JaronK

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 10:03 PM

Say, don't canon hand grenades also have proximity mine modes?

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 5 2004, 11:18 PM

Posted by: mcb Jun 5 2004, 11:30 PM

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 11:41 PM

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 6 2004, 12:16 AM

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jun 6 2004, 12:38 AM

Getting back to underrated weapons, Capsule rounds are amazingly powerful while rarely used.

They act like a gel-round so each hit does stun damage to the target. Load it with something deadly, like DMSO/Cyanide, and your target will not only have a stun modifier, but a physical one (Even if they stage down the Damage from the Cyanide below D) as well. Or give them some Hyper and watch your target scream and tear his off flesh off from the pain. Of if you want them alive there's pepper spray, or a wide range of sedatives. There's really so many wonderful things you can put in capsule rounds.

Posted by: Bob the Ninja Jun 6 2004, 01:44 AM

Only problem with capsule rounds is the cost/benefit ratio of using 1,500 nuyen to knock out a guard, as opposed to the cheap gel round

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 6 2004, 03:31 AM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 6 2004, 03:55 AM

Drugs, as a whole, are overrated. The whole "next combat turn" delay for effects makes them useless for silencing a guard before he can call for help or the like.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 6 2004, 04:06 AM

There's nothing overrated about Laes, though. It's insanely overpowered. You have to make 12 successes against a Body (6) to avoid being knocked out and it erases an hour's worth of memories per success you failed to make. Hardened armor is of no help against it, so it can take down even a great dragon... especially if mixed with DMSO. And the best part, he won't even remember you were the one who screwed him over, assuming you live through the rest of the Turn.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 6 2004, 05:22 AM

I'm not saying drugs are useless. Far from it, in fact. They've got their good uses (knocking out someone you want to capture who is a noncombatant, large hard to kill things, sewing confusion and havoc in buildings, etc). It's just that 50% of the time when someone is using them, there's a much cheaper, just-as or more effective solution out there.

Possibly the best exception to this is Pepper-Punch capsule rounds. 60 for 10 (just twice what normal gel rounds cost) and anyone you smack with them is going to really feel it after a turn or so. Great for CZs, or other hard to take down monsters which don't have chem shielding.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 6 2004, 02:41 PM

I don't know as a GM if I'd allow LAES to affect a Great Dragon. When you can recall, clearly I might add, what someone said to you four thousand years prior, I doubt some little cocktail cooked up by the elves will bother you too much. That drug works on meta-human physiology, not dragon.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 7 2004, 03:57 PM

The Styer TMP.
Why Small, concealable and supression fire.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jun 7 2004, 07:22 PM

Moving on, in the Cyber-Implant combat world handblades are king. STR+3(L) damage. Dikote them as you've got STR+5(M). Equip two on an STR 6 Character and for a very low price you've got 16M melee. Mount it on a hideous str 11 troll and it's power becomes 24M, add in off-hand cyber-implant and you throw 9 dice at chargen for it.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 7 2004, 07:45 PM

Huh? How are you getting +2 power from dikoting? Your math is also odd... dikoted paired handblades should be doing (str * 1.5)+4 (M) damage. So 6 str = 13M and 11 str = 20M.

Anyway, I prefer the improved hand razors. One point less power and a lot more cash, but slightly more essence friendly.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 7 2004, 07:52 PM

Plus Improved Hand Razors just look cooler. In any case, it's actually debatable if Hand Blades gain the +50% bonus (the rules only specify Hand Razors and Spurs, though the end of the rules section implies -- but never specifies -- that it applies to all cybernetic weapons used in tandem).

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 8 2004, 10:30 AM

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 8 2004, 10:40 AM

Plus, imagine the reaction of the colleagues of the guy who just got knocked out by baby powder... or the faces of the sec guards once they realize what those shadowrunners are shooting at them.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 9 2004, 02:19 AM

Posted by: Smiley Jun 9 2004, 03:57 AM

For a little extra fun, substitute itching powder for baby powder. Same blinding/choking effect with an amusing bonus.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 9 2004, 05:47 AM

I'm seriously thinking about lye capule bullets. Lye doesn't eat through plastic the way acid does but the ffect is much the same as medium strength acids. And being Lye in solid form is must the consistancy of salt That would make for a painful (though fairly slow) secondary damage.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 9 2004, 07:18 AM

To clarify, lye is not an acid. In fact, it is sodium hydroxide, or NaOH— which makes it a base, and, in fact, quite a potent one. Being a base, it is exceedingly corrosive when active in water. Unfortauntely, dissolved in water, it'd probably melt capsule rounds, and as a solid (usually in powder form), it is more or less inert (though, for obvious reasons, easily activated). It would make a terrible component to capsule rounds.

Besides, capsule rounds should not be doing much damage on their own, and filling them with talc is just damn silly. There's no real weight there and rather little with which to justify any stun damage. Congratulations on solving that security guard's dryness issues.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 9 2004, 07:24 AM

Make the round dual-chamber. Water and powdered lye in different chambers. When it hits, they mix.

Potentially prone to failure in midair, so use this in something burst-fire.

~J

Posted by: Smiley Jun 9 2004, 07:51 AM

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 9 2004, 08:09 AM

You might've been, but a lot of crazy shit gets thrown around quite seriously with capsule rounds, and I figured it was worth pointing out.

Anyway, 'personal dryness issues' tends to refer to people having trouble with remaining dry, not the other way around. Or, at least, so the stuff seems to be marketed. That wasn't a really serious comment, in any case.

[edit]

A dual chambered round with the water in the fore chamber for density and the lye in the rear chamber (with less relative density) could sort of work. It'd be drag stabilized, though it'd still be ridiculously light (looking at a round where the fore end of the round is less than 1/10th the density of lead and the aft is even less). If you want to suffer a 75% reduction in range for a round that's really not going to be all that combat effective, I guess there's no reason to stop you. It's a pretty unrealistic concept to begin with, but I guess if you're really set on it, you've already got enough problems without feed issues, jams, and in-weapon detonations.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 10 2004, 01:57 AM

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 10 2004, 02:35 AM

I realize you don't think that lye is not an acid. I still felt it was worth providing more information on, as was quite clear from the fact that it was a clarification and not a correction..

And, no, dry, inactive lye does not burn the shit out of you. Dry lye thrown on you that combines with moisture in the air and on your skin, however, is notably unpleasant. It would not work just fine as a powder, and would make a pretty useless small arms munition.

Posted by: mcb Jun 10 2004, 02:46 AM

Hmmmm... While were thinking of fun things to put in Capsule rounds.

How about some HF (hydrofluoric) acid in some Teflon (PTFE) capsule rounds.

Fun ensues!
mcb

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 10 2004, 02:54 AM

Red Devil drain cleaner is 100% lye. Not matter how dry you think you are it will burn you. It is far far more then just unpleasent as it will remove most of your skin. I have burned by it myself and I know 100% for a fact it does this.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 10 2004, 02:55 AM

Why does it matter if they're teflon coated?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 10 2004, 03:06 AM

So things don't stick when you cook on them.

~J

Posted by: mcb Jun 10 2004, 02:46 PM

Posted by: Wraithkin Jun 10 2004, 04:02 PM

Of course, Potassium put in a thin sheath suspended in water inside a capsule round. When the round impacts, the sheath is ripped and the two mix. A "violent reaction" is understated as the two have quite an explosive reaction. And the great thing is is that they are mostly inert when kept sealed together. Alkaline metals rock.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 10 2004, 04:41 PM

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 10 2004, 06:44 PM

Wraith, alkaline explosive rounds have been discussed (specifically, a frangible jacketed sodium based round) recently. There's not even any need for a water buffer because all necessary moisture for the reaction is supplied by the target. Problem is that it's still very light and not terribly explosive. It makes a terrible bullet whose only advantage can be easily surpassed by a traditional explosive round. Add that to the fact that they'd make for pretty unreliable ammunition and there's not much reason to pursue it.

As for hydrofluoric acid, wasn't aware that teflon was the only thing it could be contained it. I can't say it'd make a great small arms munition, though.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 10 2004, 06:58 PM

Bah. All your practicality is getting in the way of my cool factor

~J

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 10 2004, 07:36 PM

Posted by: JaronK Jun 10 2004, 08:05 PM

I believe teflon is sometimes used in bullets anyway as an armour penetration aide, though you'd really need something heavier to make the bullet hit the target.

JaronK